1 00:00:00,780 --> 00:00:08,130 The Oxford Martin School for the second of four conversations about the Dasgupta review on the economics of biodiversity. 2 00:00:08,130 --> 00:00:14,550 My name is Katharine Hepburn, director of the Smith School and lead researcher for a number of several research programmes. 3 00:00:14,550 --> 00:00:17,920 And I'm delighted we have today Inger Andersen with me. 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:26,760 Hold on. Just introduce probably in just a moment the first conversation in the series with Professor Sekoff, a script that was pretty wide-ranging. 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:32,040 Those of you who tuned in will remember we ventured into some fairly important areas, 6 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:37,740 some heavily contested territory, managing human population, perhaps the limits to growth. 7 00:00:37,740 --> 00:00:46,680 I thoroughly enjoyed it. It seems like a lot of you did, too, because there were a huge number of questions dozens and dozens, in fact. 8 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,880 And if you missed it, you can catch up on the Oxford Mountain School website. 9 00:00:50,880 --> 00:01:01,650 Now all of these questions that were kind of tabled, we didn't have time to answer all of them, but they included the ethics of pressing nature, 10 00:01:01,650 --> 00:01:07,560 the role of capitalism and quite a lot of policy questions and questions around international coordination. 11 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,600 And that's why I'm delighted with today's guests. So we're going to pick up some of them today. 12 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:18,240 And actually, if we don't get to all of them today, there'll be further opportunities in the series on the third of June, 13 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:26,670 with Professor Dame Henrietta Moore and Professor Giles Godfrey. And then on the 17th of June, Professor Nathalie said. 14 00:01:26,670 --> 00:01:29,100 So as foreshadowed today, we have Inger Andersen, 15 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:36,330 the under secretary general of the United Nations and executive director of the United Nations Environment Programme, 16 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:41,610 has had a really illustrious career within international organisations and, as I said, 17 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:51,960 is the ideal guest to follow on these questions that fundamentally involve issues of international coordination between 2015 and 2019. 18 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,240 She was director general of the International Union for Conservation of Nature for the Conservation of Nature, 19 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,020 the IUCN, as we know it, 15 years the World Bank, 20 00:02:01,020 --> 00:02:08,850 including multiple leadership positions, including vice president for sustainable development and has spent 12 years before that on drought, 21 00:02:08,850 --> 00:02:13,020 desertification and water management at the UN. 22 00:02:13,020 --> 00:02:23,790 She's a dean, and I'm pleased to say that her tertiary education was in the UK and with the masses so focussing on economics and development. 23 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:27,540 So and I were both on the Dasgupta Review Advisory Panel. 24 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:35,100 We had the pleasure of watching the huge. Here it is. Six hundred and four page report developed. 25 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:42,600 And actually, in case you missed it, you know, but Oxford have been collaborating on observing the economic recovery. 26 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,660 We launched a recent report together. Are we building back better? 27 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:54,090 And the report is online as it's the launch event with IMF Managing Director Kristalina Georgieva and as well. 28 00:02:54,090 --> 00:03:00,330 Brian O'Callahan, who led the work at Oxford. And I'm really grateful to you and Stephen Stone from the unit for their partnership. 29 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:07,440 So today I want to export his thoughts about the review, the post-2020 biodiversity framework, 30 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,080 nature based solutions, intersections and climate change, 31 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:18,990 the green recovery and obviously anything you want us to explore to ask a question button is where it usually is down the bottom on the right. 32 00:03:18,990 --> 00:03:27,980 So please do use it. But let's start with a very general question what do you think the most significant conclusions from the review are? 33 00:03:27,980 --> 00:03:32,130 And how has it changed the conversation? So you? 34 00:03:32,130 --> 00:03:40,830 Well, first of all, thank you for having me and greetings from Nairobi, where Europe is headquartered, the only U.N. organisation in the Global South. 35 00:03:40,830 --> 00:03:44,610 We're very headquartered in the global south, which we're very proud of. 36 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:51,810 Together with you and habitat. So at any rate. Look, The Dasgupta review is interesting from so many points of view, but I mean, 37 00:03:51,810 --> 00:03:58,230 sort of at the very basic level it speaks to nature is an asset class, and don't forget that. 38 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:04,650 Don't ignore that. Actually, nature in the broader economy plays a role that has not been valued, 39 00:04:04,650 --> 00:04:14,130 and we can get back to the ethics of valuing etc. We always get when I speak, especially with conservation colleagues, obviously. 40 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:17,820 But, but but that in and of itself is significant. 41 00:04:17,820 --> 00:04:18,620 And then of course, 42 00:04:18,620 --> 00:04:30,090 there's this understanding that part that puts forward that economic thinking has been flawed in that it hasn't understood that value, 43 00:04:30,090 --> 00:04:34,710 and therefore it has assumed that this is a mixed analogy. This is something that is available. 44 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:38,850 You can essentially exploit nature for the benefit of economy and society and 45 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:44,700 that it is infinite and bringing that understanding that it is not infinite. 46 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:53,340 And I think climate change, biodiversity loss, pollution and waste desertification shows us some of those elements that the carrying capacity 47 00:04:53,340 --> 00:05:00,790 limits on planetary boundaries as as the Stockholm Environment Resilience Institute, 48 00:05:00,790 --> 00:05:05,800 those things are now showing up and they are showing up more as we expand our population. 49 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:14,910 So I think those issues are really critical. The stern review back in the day was critical because it put the economics of 50 00:05:14,910 --> 00:05:22,140 climate change firmly on a footing of economic thinking in the financial world, 51 00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:32,880 and that was critical at the time. My hope is obviously and it was important because it was done by Treasury and not by, you know, 52 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:40,230 environment ministers who have the greatest respect for, but it's really important that it happened outside of our sector, so to speak. 53 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:43,350 Ditto for this thing now for the Dasgupta review. 54 00:05:43,350 --> 00:05:51,750 And what we hope very much is that it will begin to ride that wave of getting a broader understanding in the economic thinking. 55 00:05:51,750 --> 00:06:02,250 Because what we know is that the stock of natural capital has declined was we have in one wise, we've greatly increased produced capital, 56 00:06:02,250 --> 00:06:09,330 but 40 percent or so decline in natural capital and a significant increase in and produce capital. 57 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:18,570 So what does that tell us? We haven't been stewards of of the planet as we should have been, and the review puts points out very much. 58 00:06:18,570 --> 00:06:25,180 Great. That's a superset of points to start off with. I want to come back to this, you know, 40 percent decline in natural capital, 59 00:06:25,180 --> 00:06:30,780 but I just know we're going to get it in the questions the ethics of pricing nature. 60 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:37,170 So you say you always get it too. I've actually written on it because it ended up being plaguing me. 61 00:06:37,170 --> 00:06:43,110 So, so it's not that one off. Is it OK to put an economic value on nature? 62 00:06:43,110 --> 00:06:44,940 Are we not pricing the prices? 63 00:06:44,940 --> 00:06:53,040 Are we not devaluing all of the dimensions of nature that really matter when we stick it into a finance ministry and onto a spreadsheet? 64 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,210 Is this not part of the problem, not part of the solution? 65 00:06:57,210 --> 00:07:03,300 No, it's very much part of the solution, and the reason why it's part of the solution is that we shouldn't juxtapose these things. 66 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:14,280 Nature has infinite value to culture, to language, to poetry, to art, to religions, to you and I, to our lives, 67 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:21,330 to our well-being, to our happiness, to love, to all of these intangible things when nature plays a part. 68 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:27,030 But that does not mean that we can cut the proverbial forests empty and cut the proverbial 69 00:07:27,030 --> 00:07:31,680 forest down and have a great quarterly return and think that everything will be OK. 70 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:40,530 That does not mean that the mangrove is not protecting that community and that we don't understand the value of that against a concrete seawall. 71 00:07:40,530 --> 00:07:50,880 So having an understanding that the value that ecosystems provide to to human to humanity just is it just exists. 72 00:07:50,880 --> 00:08:02,400 That community that sits behind that massive buffer of a mangrove knows the value of that mangrove and understanding that that other than a sea wall, 73 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,450 has also other other. I mean, that's where fish spawn. 74 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:12,600 That's where you can have great crayfish. That's where you can do lots of other economic activity. 75 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,280 So this is not about putting dollar signs on trees. 76 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,070 This is not about putting a value on a butterfly, 77 00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:28,110 but it is understanding that this superbly intricate system of species and interdependence has its own beauty, 78 00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:33,810 the intrinsic value, which is completely incontestable. 79 00:08:33,810 --> 00:08:42,990 But at the same time, the economic value we have not understood and we have not valued adequately when we understand a nation's wealth, 80 00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:52,170 which is why we are doing it by working on inclusive wealth and understanding of what wealth means in terms of natural capital. 81 00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:59,040 So I don't see it, and when I speak about it with with certain communities that that feel quite strongly about this, 82 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,050 we have to understand it from their perspective. 83 00:09:01,050 --> 00:09:11,620 Indigenous peoples, for example, often feel that this is very alienating and very and that it undermines their indigenous rights, their rights. 84 00:09:11,620 --> 00:09:21,120 And that is so because if you just look at it purely on the value of that proverbial forest versus the value that they ascribe to it, yes. 85 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:31,500 But that's not what we argue. What we argue is understanding that that value has broader value for community and for society as a whole. 86 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:41,010 So going back to think here, I think that's very helpful to clarify that earlier, although there are questions already coming in on that point. 87 00:09:41,010 --> 00:09:46,950 Sure. In terms of inclusive wealth, as you say, UNEP has been leading the way here. 88 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:53,820 Well, thanks for doing work as well on getting more comprehensive, more inclusive sets of national accounts. 89 00:09:53,820 --> 00:09:59,850 And when you look at those national accounts, as you said, a natural capital is not exactly in good shape. 90 00:09:59,850 --> 00:10:05,160 It's understated. I mean, as father said, we are in an extinction event. 91 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:10,000 So if we're in an extinction event, what are the top priority actions for the world? 92 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:17,350 I mean, who has to do what and when? What's the kind of to do list for humanity right now? 93 00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:25,020 Might be useful to sort of create some buckets around these action lists, the to do list for governments, right? 94 00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:33,310 They set the yardsticks for how we companies, industries, communities, localities behave. 95 00:10:33,310 --> 00:10:38,680 So they need to understand what yardsticks they're setting natural capital accounting. 96 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:48,460 Are they going to take that into a decision making understanding the degradation that companies or all others cause? 97 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:54,970 Are they willing to set to understand the inclusive growth dimension of of the 98 00:10:54,970 --> 00:11:01,870 responsibilities that making laws and rules and regulations give government? 99 00:11:01,870 --> 00:11:06,850 Are they willing to put a price on carbon? Are they willing to put incentives to decarbonise? 100 00:11:06,850 --> 00:11:12,190 Are they willing to phase out harmful subsidies? Are they willing to put a tax on pollution? 101 00:11:12,190 --> 00:11:18,010 Are they willing to redirect subsidies away from fossil fuels and towards renewables? 102 00:11:18,010 --> 00:11:24,910 Are they willing to subsidise or move away from harmful agricultural subsidies, 103 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:31,810 never making the farmers the enemies, but making it possible for the farmers to farm in nature positive ways? 104 00:11:31,810 --> 00:11:40,700 These are the kind of sort of to do items for governments, and we as voters have an opportunity to impact in that regard, right? 105 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:45,340 Then there are the intergovernmental organisations, be they non-government? 106 00:11:45,340 --> 00:11:52,180 I'm sorry, be the UN on on. Um, I had the privilege of working for IUCN, which is not UN, but nevertheless. 107 00:11:52,180 --> 00:11:59,470 And so they need to work in enabling, at least if they're in the environmental sphere, 108 00:11:59,470 --> 00:12:06,190 enabling a broader understanding of what science says so that it can enable good policy decisions. 109 00:12:06,190 --> 00:12:12,280 I was at the World Bank when we initiated the waves of wealth accounting and valuation of ecosystem services, 110 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:18,490 which was sort of a forerunner for many of the things that we're talking about today. 111 00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:27,820 And so I think that there's a real opportunity here for multilateral organisations to to roll this to understand and pursue some of this, 112 00:12:27,820 --> 00:12:36,400 but always understanding community rights, always understanding indigenous people's rights and not just with a check, but a cheque. 113 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:47,890 But but really understanding that the value of community managed and indigenous peoples managed area in terms of biodiversity, 114 00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:55,010 wealth is often way exceeding national parks in that and protected areas so. 115 00:12:55,010 --> 00:13:01,480 So in international intergovernmental organisation financial institutions, well, you know, 116 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:16,870 a huge role because a portfolio of investments from bankers to insurers to to to investors is is such that it can be shifted towards nature positive. 117 00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:23,290 And that's why a task force on nature related disclosures is being now discussed. 118 00:13:23,290 --> 00:13:27,160 How will an investment portfolio realign itself? 119 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,270 And that is for your pension and mine, that is for your mortgage and mine. 120 00:13:31,270 --> 00:13:40,510 So let's understand how we do that, right? So it's not just some abstract thing, it's when we take a loan for a buying that car as well. 121 00:13:40,510 --> 00:13:49,720 So understanding how, how, how, how the banking industry, the investment investors, as well as insurance can be in line. 122 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:56,380 And then, of course, business. I don't need to go into that as obvious. And then finally, the choices that we as individuals make. 123 00:13:56,380 --> 00:14:01,330 You and I, you know, why do we buy? How do we consume? 124 00:14:01,330 --> 00:14:08,830 How do we live, etc. And often that is sort of sought as a as an afterthought by individuals or what can I do? 125 00:14:08,830 --> 00:14:12,550 I'm such a small consumer, you know, in the big scheme of seven and a half billion. 126 00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:20,860 The truth is that the world is made up of seven and a half billion and each and every one of us have a choice to make, you know, consumption patterns. 127 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:28,270 And in our yeah, in our footprint. So all of that, that's kind of a long to do list, but you need to look at in each of the buckets. 128 00:14:28,270 --> 00:14:34,000 I was thinking it is quite a long To-Do list, and I'm glad you did put it in those buckets of government kind of international institutions, 129 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,150 NGOs, financial institutions, business and individuals. 130 00:14:37,150 --> 00:14:47,140 And I guess, you know, if I were a teenager, I'd be looking at people like you and me and thinking, why? 131 00:14:47,140 --> 00:14:52,480 Why haven't we done this already? I mean, it's not as if this is really news to any of us. 132 00:14:52,480 --> 00:15:01,390 What's the blockage? Where are the other person? Incentives of the leaders of these organisations lined up to do what they need to do? 133 00:15:01,390 --> 00:15:10,000 Or is this something? Why do we have all these huge fossil fuel subsidies and how do we actually get rid of them? 134 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,230 I mean, there is a short termism built into our system, our electoral system, 135 00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:20,440 you have a cycle for four or five years, your quarterly report of your company return, what have you. 136 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,900 This is short termism that does not take into account intergenerational equity that does not take into 137 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:35,110 account the fact that we are shaving away at the very foundations for future wealth and sustainability, 138 00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:39,880 if I may say so. And that's that's the difficult conversation, 139 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:46,990 because maybe it is easier for me as a politician or as a business person to just deal with the short termism. 140 00:15:46,990 --> 00:15:55,900 No, the good thing is that more and more people have understood that actually the intergenerational and the longer term perspective is real, 141 00:15:55,900 --> 00:16:02,170 and it is about investing in the future that you will create better jobs, that you will create opportunities. 142 00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:09,460 It is about redirecting investments towards renewable, sustainable and nature positive. 143 00:16:09,460 --> 00:16:14,830 But these things only happen with governments living up to the commitments. 144 00:16:14,830 --> 00:16:26,380 Look, in 2010, governments turned up in Nagoya in Japan for what was COP 10 of biodiversity, and at that point I was there with a different hat. 145 00:16:26,380 --> 00:16:30,880 But it's immaterial, and I was there for the by and for the World Bank. 146 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,400 And at that point, we agreed to what was called the Aichi targets. 147 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,960 They actually really rather good these 20 targets had to measure. 148 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:45,670 So but you know, in principle and government signed up to them, but nobody has lived up to them. 149 00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:56,590 So that's not acceptable. And I think with what we're now seeing, there is a much greater awareness that it has taken all of society approach. 150 00:16:56,590 --> 00:17:05,620 It has to take us holding our politicians and leaders to account and calling out those that are not living up to it. 151 00:17:05,620 --> 00:17:12,610 If we look at the carbon side, the climate side, we understand that yes, everyone needs to shift. 152 00:17:12,610 --> 00:17:18,400 We need ambitious and disease. But the G20 has a special to do list because they are over. 153 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,480 They are over 70 or nearly 80 percent of carbon emissions. 154 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,140 So we need to understand the inequity between nations in this. 155 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:31,210 And the same is the case for biodiversity understanding how we need to. 156 00:17:31,210 --> 00:17:35,290 This is a global common good, but it is hosted often in very poor countries. 157 00:17:35,290 --> 00:17:45,370 So understanding that we have access to resources, access to transparency and access to support and capacity building and technology. 158 00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:54,760 So we haven't done it well enough and now really is the time to move that needle because we 159 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:02,290 can no longer as if this sort of IPCC equivalent to two for the Biodiversity Convention, 160 00:18:02,290 --> 00:18:08,770 which we are proud to host, points out we have about seven point eight million species on this good earth, 161 00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:13,780 and we set to lose one million if we don't take action. 162 00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:18,970 And that will cause inevitably ecosystem impacts that we cannot. 163 00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:26,620 Well, I could get into that. But it will have severe impacts. Just think pollinators and losing using pollination. 164 00:18:26,620 --> 00:18:32,800 You know, it's going to be a very complex social technical political system that we're operating in. 165 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:42,070 But if I was to try to synthesise in a sense what you've just said, use the word awareness several times. 166 00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:47,560 And I guess all of these incentives become whether you're the head of a financial institution, the head of a government, 167 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:54,340 if your voters are demanding it, your shareholders are demanding it, then it becomes a whole lot easier to deliver. 168 00:18:54,340 --> 00:19:03,010 And perhaps that awareness is one of the most important dimensions to cover. 169 00:19:03,010 --> 00:19:07,690 If I might pick up on something else, you noted you were there in Nagoya wearing a different hat. 170 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:19,540 You wear, in a sense, quite a powerful hat. Now, as the head of, you know, I'm sure that people listening and thinking, Well, can you sort? 171 00:19:19,540 --> 00:19:27,790 Come on, unit. What are your top priority on unit? Come up when you have, you know, what can we see from you in the coming year? 172 00:19:27,790 --> 00:19:31,270 Where where are you working hardest right now? 173 00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:42,970 Look, we look at three planetary crises that unless we tackle these and tackled these with real sincerity and determination. 174 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:46,570 It's a it's a future we cannot even contemplate. 175 00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:53,320 And the three crises planetary crisis, climate change, obviously, I don't need to explain that to anyone. 176 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,850 Nature and biodiversity loss and waste and pollution. 177 00:19:57,850 --> 00:20:04,120 The toxic trail of our economic development that is essentially poisoning and toxic flying the planet, right? 178 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:10,070 And what is it that is driving these? It is unsustainable consumption and production. 179 00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:21,670 It is a very way in which society works. We take stuff out of the environment, resources, etc. our food and so on energy. 180 00:20:21,670 --> 00:20:28,030 And then we put it into the economy and society, which is a fine thing because it enables us to have the life that we have. 181 00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:36,010 When we were done with it, we discarded as waste right back into the environment or as as depletion into the environment. 182 00:20:36,010 --> 00:20:40,600 That is so. So that's sort of at the macro level. So what does that then mean? 183 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:47,650 It means that for us, delivering the science at best, which will also prove to IPCC, 184 00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:54,670 which will is in Prague to co-host with our friends at WMO in Paris, as well as global chemicals outlook, et cetera, et cetera. 185 00:20:54,670 --> 00:21:04,030 The International Resource Panel. That science that tells us about this and then working with member states, for example, right now, 186 00:21:04,030 --> 00:21:10,480 working with member states to help them get on the low carbon trajectory through the NDCs, 187 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,730 but also issue, for example, on the climate size, the emissions gap report that gives a report card. 188 00:21:15,730 --> 00:21:21,010 And last year we gave a report card to the G20 because it is very clear that we will 189 00:21:21,010 --> 00:21:25,270 work with someone and we will work with The Gambia and we will work with Honduras. 190 00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:30,970 But that is not where we have the big emissions and we need to focus on the G 20. 191 00:21:30,970 --> 00:21:37,360 And so holding a sort of report card up and saying this is what needs that's on climate, on biodiversity, 192 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:44,920 clearly supporting and enabling that we get an ambitious post-2020 biodiversity framework, 193 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:51,490 renewed targets that are measurable and implementable and a fundable and doable. 194 00:21:51,490 --> 00:21:56,770 And that means an all of society approach and on finally pollution and waste dealing 195 00:21:56,770 --> 00:22:04,780 with circularity again in the EU setting circular economy is coming into for the same. 196 00:22:04,780 --> 00:22:13,750 In the UK. There's a lot of interest in circularity, but also obviously working through with our friends at WTO and other places on the 197 00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:20,230 trade related dimensions that one can encourage to tackle all three of these crises. 198 00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:26,530 Now 2021 is a really full year in terms of the calendar because lots of things sort 199 00:22:26,530 --> 00:22:33,790 of got pushed into out of 2020 2020 and I won't go through the whole calendar, 200 00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:39,160 but everybody knows COP26. Everybody hope knows COP15 Kunming. 201 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:46,570 Many people will know that we are launching the decade for Ecosystem Restoration on World Environment Day at the 5th of June, 202 00:22:46,570 --> 00:22:56,410 which would be that decade to massively support a global campaign are aiming for trillions of dollars into ecosystem restoration. 203 00:22:56,410 --> 00:23:04,690 And of course, there's lots of other stuff happening in 2020 that we are pushing the Secretary-General's Food Summit Food System Summit, 204 00:23:04,690 --> 00:23:09,280 where we really want to push nature, positive agriculture and of course, 205 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:14,380 the one health agenda just today with Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, 206 00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:23,680 as well as the FAO and the way we've launched the one health science technical panel that can really deal with the environment, 207 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,750 veterinary and human health dimension. So that's kind of what we're working on. 208 00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:33,070 But the bottom line, these three crises. So there you go. UNEP is doing a lot. 209 00:23:33,070 --> 00:23:42,740 It would be a summary of that clearly around shining a light on these problems and what can be done about it. 210 00:23:42,740 --> 00:23:49,420 And I've got a whole lot of my own questions I'd like to ask you, but I fear that as last time with Fatah, 211 00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:54,040 we're just not going to get through the audience questions unless I make a stop right now. 212 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,500 So I'm going to do that many, many minutes ahead of plan. 213 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:04,870 The first one that I think is just directly related to what you've just been talking about. 214 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:15,310 The the the agenda for this year 2021 is from Daniel Sharf, who's asking about whether we'll get everything sorted in COP15, 215 00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:19,660 in China, in biodiversity and if we don't assuming we don't. 216 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:27,250 Would it be helpful to try to merge some of these agendas in COP26 in Glasgow? 217 00:24:27,250 --> 00:24:37,840 Perhaps, perhaps later. Given the relationship? The interdependencies between addressing climate and addressing the biodiversity and nature agenda, 218 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:45,680 what are your thoughts on these twin processes that we have running and how we might make progress? 219 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:54,710 Look, we look upon these real conventions, desertification, climate change and biodiversity, but also, frankly, their forerunners site, 220 00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:59,670 the convention that deals with illegal illegal trade of flora and fauna, CMS, 221 00:24:59,670 --> 00:25:06,110 the convention that deals with migratory species, the ozone control and DNA protocols and deals with ozone. 222 00:25:06,110 --> 00:25:13,400 We look upon them, frankly, as indivisible. We are hosting 17 convention and you now have two conventional standalone convention. 223 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,450 That's climate and desertification, but the rest are hosted by us. 224 00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:24,590 And so we see that one must mutually reinforce the other week that the Kigali Protocol under Ozone. 225 00:25:24,590 --> 00:25:31,610 But we know that when we reduce emission, that ozone depleting, they have huge impact on the climate side. 226 00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:39,410 We know that if we can mediate and reduce climate climate change, it will be better for ecosystems. 227 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:47,960 We understand that adaptation, as well as resilience as well as mitigation, means that we need to restore ecosystems. 228 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:56,720 That's a good thing for biodiversity. If we don't do, you know, monoculture, you do it well and that's good for climate change. 229 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:04,970 So the indivisibility of these conventions is real, but they are handled differently. 230 00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:09,650 One you need to deal with shifting to transport and the energy sector, etc. 231 00:26:09,650 --> 00:26:18,590 And another one, you're dealing with something quite unique that deals with unique ecosystems and biodiversity and species and megafauna, 232 00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:27,170 mega diversity, et cetera. But what we do need to see and find and and push for is synergy. 233 00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:33,560 And what's very good for the UK presidency is that it is intending to place nature 234 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,180 and nature based solutions firmly as one of the agenda points as we understand it. 235 00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:45,980 And that's very powerful because if all things go well, we will have the Kunming cop in, I believe, October. 236 00:26:45,980 --> 00:26:56,480 And then that will be followed by the cop in Glasgow, which will give a very nice lift to the nature agenda, I expect. 237 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,800 Thanks very much. I hope answers Daniel's question pretty nicely. 238 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,040 Next one is from Richard Vernon, 239 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:15,690 and he's taken the three planetary crisis that you're speaking of and noted that arguably all three are being driven by population growth. 240 00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:20,060 Now this is a topic that often comes up in talks about in school discussions. 241 00:27:20,060 --> 00:27:24,350 We don't always dive into it because it's quite contentious. 242 00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:29,660 But given the review's focus on population, we had, I think, 243 00:27:29,660 --> 00:27:36,440 quite a good and frank and thoughtful discussion about population and the management of population with Partha, 244 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,600 who described himself as a liberal and didn't really want to go in for heavy handed population control. 245 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,160 But I'm wondering whether you want to be sure free to say, don't my cup of tea, 246 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:53,230 but would you like to have a say anything about how we might think about the fundamental drivers? 247 00:27:53,230 --> 00:27:59,300 You know, its population times, consumption per capita, I guess driving many of these problems. 248 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:07,090 What should we do about the population side of things? Well, first of all, we need to understand that, yeah, of course, if we were one million, 249 00:28:07,090 --> 00:28:12,040 one billion roaming around this up, the pressure on the US would be different. 250 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,150 That's clear. That's just basic. That's basic understanding. 251 00:28:16,150 --> 00:28:25,300 Everyone knows that. The second point we need to take on board is the problem is not right now the woman in Africa who has five children. 252 00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:28,600 The problem is you and I and our footprint right? 253 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:39,280 The top one percent or the top 10 percent, is responsible for some 80 percent in terms of income is responsible for some 80 percent of emissions. 254 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,560 And let's be clear, the top 10, the top 10 percent is something like I forget. 255 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:51,040 Seventy nine thousand dollars a year. We had all these numbers in our last, you know, emissions gap report so they can be verified there. 256 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:58,600 And the top one percent is people who earn what probably more many people in in Denmark and the UK earn. 257 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:04,960 So this is not the the jet setting. These are people with one hundred and fifty two hundred thousand dollars a year is not. 258 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,040 It is still rich, but is not uber rich. So that's the first point. 259 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:20,200 That's where the footprint is. That is why the the the reduction in footprint and the injustice of the climate justice dimension has to be important. 260 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,880 Now, having said that, the third point is we need to give gender equity. 261 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:35,170 We need to have women being in charge of their lives and in charge of their life decisions, including education, 262 00:29:35,170 --> 00:29:42,730 including when they get married, including when they decide to have children and be agents of their own bodies. 263 00:29:42,730 --> 00:29:51,880 And these are the sort of basic things that we just need to deal with and not talk about the the sort of other dimensions. 264 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:59,050 We know that if girls have no power and if they are not empowered under the law and in society and by tradition, 265 00:29:59,050 --> 00:30:04,390 chances are they may get married very young and not be able to make life decisions. 266 00:30:04,390 --> 00:30:12,550 We, as women, need to have agency over our life and our life choices, including our children, how many children we want. 267 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:20,530 If we deal with these three bits, we will have addressed a massive dimension of the population issue. 268 00:30:20,530 --> 00:30:29,380 And that's sort of how I always respond to this, because there is a sort of emphasis on on societies that are poor, 269 00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:33,070 where the normal thing to do is to have more children, 270 00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:42,070 because then that's how you safeguard your own social safety net, what it is about poverty eradication and women empowerment, amongst others. 271 00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:42,430 Thank you. 272 00:30:42,430 --> 00:30:51,790 I think that's a good answer, though probably leave many people thinking here are listing in the let's let's say more questions will doubtless come. 273 00:30:51,790 --> 00:31:00,970 I want to move now to a question from Rob Panopto, who's asking about the most effective interventions for protecting nature. 274 00:31:00,970 --> 00:31:04,480 And its question is where would you put your money on the table? 275 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:11,560 And perhaps let me sharpen it up by saying if somebody just dropped a trillion US dollars on you? 276 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,990 So there you go. You spend that how you want. What would you do? 277 00:31:16,990 --> 00:31:25,540 How would you? It's a tough question to ask yourself, so I know you'll be happy to have it. 278 00:31:25,540 --> 00:31:35,400 Well, first of all, look, this is for biodiversity. I think the question was around the priorities that I would want to invest in for. 279 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:43,330 Yes. Look, there is a lot of talk right now about 30 by 30, 50 by 50 etc, 280 00:31:43,330 --> 00:31:50,020 which essentially is this idea that you need to protect in protected areas, 30 percent or what have you. 281 00:31:50,020 --> 00:31:58,090 Of terrestrial and marine. And under the Aichi targets, it was 10 percent marine and 17 percent terrestrial. 282 00:31:58,090 --> 00:32:05,980 We just might make it. But what I want to say for those percentages, right, we just might well see we're not there yet on either of them. 283 00:32:05,980 --> 00:32:10,270 But my point here is why is protected areas are great? 284 00:32:10,270 --> 00:32:14,020 And I would be the I work that IUCN, they are critical, 285 00:32:14,020 --> 00:32:22,270 but where we really need to invest is outside the protected areas, and that's why we need to understand that we cannot. 286 00:32:22,270 --> 00:32:29,800 We need to have biodiversity on working landscapes, biodiversity and agricultural settings, biodiversity and the urban landscape. 287 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:38,410 Understanding what we do when we subsidise which we do in many countries, pesticide and insecticides, what we do when we stop, 288 00:32:38,410 --> 00:32:48,220 when we have a huge amount of fertiliser and the nitrogen runoff into waterways, into groundwater, but also into the marine. 289 00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:55,180 And so it is about understanding that those 30 million trillion that you are giving me, 290 00:32:55,180 --> 00:33:02,040 that we, we we have to obviously do our protection and it needs to be the quality. 291 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:12,240 And the quantity, so we don't want paper parks, we want quality management and quality and quantity. 292 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:19,620 But that's not the sole answer. And if we just chase that, we are missing a bigger picture, 293 00:33:19,620 --> 00:33:27,930 which is that nature needs to live not just behind a fence in a protected area, but where we are. 294 00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:37,710 And so in our gardens, what are we doing ourselves in terms of do we use, what is it, roundup or other things that have, you know, what? 295 00:33:37,710 --> 00:33:43,680 What are we doing and how and what are we buying and what are we incentivising? 296 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:51,810 And so I put my money there to ensure that farmers, because farmers, our friends, we must never, as environmentalists make farmers the enemy. 297 00:33:51,810 --> 00:33:57,330 But they need to get the kind of support to make the shifts that are nature positive. 298 00:33:57,330 --> 00:34:05,580 And so that's where I would put my emphasis of an outside protected, obviously also invest a couple of trillion in the protected areas, 299 00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:10,890 but then really invest in in the broader terrestrial and marine, 300 00:34:10,890 --> 00:34:19,380 including marine beyond national jurisdiction where we see deep sea mining and things like that. 301 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:28,980 And with ice melt happening, broader encroachment potential into pristine areas, 302 00:34:28,980 --> 00:34:35,610 and we cannot afford to see that without understanding the consequences. So I can't risk asking little bit of a follow up. 303 00:34:35,610 --> 00:34:44,190 Do you think would you reserve any funding for research and development into technologies that might offer demand substitution? 304 00:34:44,190 --> 00:34:52,650 It's kind of an interest of mine. We know an awful lot of habitat destruction is driven by various animal products. 305 00:34:52,650 --> 00:34:59,730 We know that if we want to deliver those proteins and alternative ways, either plant based or cellular based proteins, 306 00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:07,270 we could cut the land requirements down, perhaps by as much as a factor of five or 10. 307 00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:11,430 Would that be something that you if you had a trillion, would you reserve any of it for that sort of thing? 308 00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:20,370 Would you not really place much hope in the tech side of things? No, absolutely, I place hope both in the tech side, but also in the choice side, 309 00:35:20,370 --> 00:35:25,380 we have to have a conversation about the diets we are having because look, 310 00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:33,360 maybe you and I and people who live like we do can be very happy about the way we get our protein. 311 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:41,640 I'm a lifelong vegetarian, but that's another story. But, but but but but you know, and it's a protein matters. 312 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,140 Meat protein matters in many countries, but we can't all have steak every night. 313 00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:53,820 And if seven and a half billion people wish to do that because now we are wealthy enough to do it, it does just does not compute. 314 00:35:53,820 --> 00:36:02,190 And so we need to have an honest conversation about dietary choices, as well as looking at alternative ways of getting protein, 315 00:36:02,190 --> 00:36:14,190 but not legislating on this point because that just that will completely not work and it would be completely hypocritical. 316 00:36:14,190 --> 00:36:19,140 So I think we need to ensure that meat diets are available, 317 00:36:19,140 --> 00:36:25,680 but we also need to ensure that we can do that with a degree of sustainability in mind and carrying capacity in mind. 318 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:35,940 And I think a lot of it comes from, you know, ensuring that we encourage, I mean, 319 00:36:35,940 --> 00:36:47,010 plant content in our diet from early on and that we teach kids what is delicious and what is great. 320 00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:55,950 And I think that each of these have a have a place. But I do not believe that we should outlaw in any way. 321 00:36:55,950 --> 00:36:58,680 Now what I'm seeing is here in the UK, for example, 322 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:08,820 which is quite interesting that we are we are seeing quite a lot of vegetarian and vegan options and a lot of flexitarian ism, 323 00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:14,490 which is also interesting. People sort of eating more plant rich diet. 324 00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:23,520 And part of what we need to do is clearly have an understanding that the current system is sort of a double edged sword. 325 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,250 It's shaped by the cheaper food paradigm, which aims at producing more food quickly and cheaply. 326 00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:34,080 But we do so at the cost to biodiversity and a cost to our health. 327 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:43,080 And so understanding that so the cost gets shifted over on our health systems, diabetes, cardiovascular cetera, 328 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:49,540 which we are then not seeing when we buy the cheap food, but it shows up elsewhere in the economy. 329 00:37:49,540 --> 00:37:58,040 I mean, is it an implication of what you said that perhaps in many countries, meat is too cheap? 330 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,130 It might be I don't I don't actually know enough about that to have an on this day. 331 00:38:02,130 --> 00:38:10,250 That's sort of an honest, honest opinion, but I think if we want to internalise the environmental costs, 332 00:38:10,250 --> 00:38:14,990 then that's something that we need to look at. But in some countries, it may be too cheap. 333 00:38:14,990 --> 00:38:19,730 In some countries, it may be too expensive. I think it depends entirely where you're placed. 334 00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:25,640 I'm sitting in Nairobi and I can tell you it's very expensive here, and it's not the average family that can afford it. 335 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:32,270 OK, moving on to a question from Charlie Freitag here is interested in measuring 336 00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:37,280 and kind of assessing the biodiversity impacts of investment portfolios and, 337 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:47,210 of course, units, financial initiatives. It's been doing great work in these sorts of areas for many years now, whatever decade, possibly more. 338 00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:50,510 His question is where do you start with? 339 00:38:50,510 --> 00:38:58,970 Where's the kind of best place to look for guidance as to how to measure the biodiversity impact of an investment portfolio, 340 00:38:58,970 --> 00:39:03,590 given that this is presumably fairly tricky? 341 00:39:03,590 --> 00:39:07,300 And I guess I could give some pointers, but where would you direct, Charlie? 342 00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:10,620 Sure, you can. Well, you're probably better at it than I. 343 00:39:10,620 --> 00:39:17,060 But look, there is. There is a coalition of organisation called the science based initiative, 344 00:39:17,060 --> 00:39:23,780 and it's very much taking a leaf out of the climate story, which we all know very well with the science based targets for climate. 345 00:39:23,780 --> 00:39:30,410 Now, you could argue that that was easier because we would look just at emissions. 346 00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:34,670 I have always said no, we just simplified it down to one factor. 347 00:39:34,670 --> 00:39:40,790 We didn't talk about ocean warming. We didn't talk about species loss due to climate change. 348 00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:48,400 We didn't. Create such a complicated setting that in the target, science based targets for climate, 349 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:57,760 we couldn't get at something that against which companies could disclose that their the footprint and the impact on their portfolio. 350 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,890 So in the science based Target Initiative, Target Initiative for Biodiversity, 351 00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:11,590 what a good number of scientists and organisations are working on is coming up with something that companies can deploy. 352 00:40:11,590 --> 00:40:17,110 And that's very much also what the task force on Nature related disclosures is working on. 353 00:40:17,110 --> 00:40:21,610 And so and there is a beginning of this. 354 00:40:21,610 --> 00:40:29,980 But what we do need to do is to have a degree of understanding so that it doesn't become greenwashing. 355 00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:35,200 And so that it has a genuineness to it that is comparable across portfolio. 356 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:48,730 That's why getting a clear, post-2020 framework with the with the goals that can then be translated will matter because then smart 357 00:40:48,730 --> 00:40:55,900 organisations will surely come up with clear science based targets that companies can measure their portfolio on. 358 00:40:55,900 --> 00:41:02,170 And let's begin with those that really have footprint timber, pulp and paper palm oil. 359 00:41:02,170 --> 00:41:09,430 So those that have read that have significant footprint in if we just want to look at commodities. 360 00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:16,160 But then let's look not just at the countries that are growing them, but at the consumption of these things. 361 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:23,470 And because it will probably turn out that you and I and our economies are consuming most of the palm oil. 362 00:41:23,470 --> 00:41:34,330 So we just need to think around around this in a way that does not cause further poverty in countries that are producing and export exporting. 363 00:41:34,330 --> 00:41:43,510 But that can readjust. And so I think what we're seeing is some companies have already been leaning in and experimenting with this. 364 00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:50,590 We see that in the context of the World Economic Forum, where some interesting work has been happening with with a series of companies. 365 00:41:50,590 --> 00:41:53,020 We still have quite some some way to go. 366 00:41:53,020 --> 00:42:01,420 And of course, getting the financiers, the investors, the insurers and the bankers to align with this will be the next, 367 00:42:01,420 --> 00:42:12,850 the next, the next to do I do a slightly big one that you will need to take on in the context of the Europe financial unify. 368 00:42:12,850 --> 00:42:22,990 Thanks. I think you've also partially answered Henry Grumps question about the additional complexity of biodiversity compared to climate change. 369 00:42:22,990 --> 00:42:32,350 I mean, there's good disclosure through CDP and not on all of the interests, not all of the metrics that Charlie will be interested in, of course. 370 00:42:32,350 --> 00:42:35,570 And I think in general, that could be a lot more disclosure here. 371 00:42:35,570 --> 00:42:40,430 Now I want to shift gears a little bit and ask you a question which I'm probably going to fail to do justice to. 372 00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:45,640 So my apologies to Christophe Place, who's put it, there's a lot of interest in this. 373 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:52,630 I think he's interested in alternative currencies where the cryptocurrencies or barter arrangements or, 374 00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:56,560 you know, very local currencies and asking the question, 375 00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:08,660 Could we use these new and innovative forms of currencies, perhaps to as a tool of incentivization for biodiversity protection? 376 00:43:08,660 --> 00:43:14,020 And I think what Christoph and various others have commented on this idea is 377 00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:18,400 getting at is perhaps if the conventional monetary system isn't working for 378 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,110 us and if valuing nature in terms of dollars and pounds and euros and renminbi 379 00:43:23,110 --> 00:43:31,630 is it is not working kind of some of these newer forms of kind of proto. 380 00:43:31,630 --> 00:43:37,300 I was going to say Persia capitalism. That's not quite right, either. New monetary systems might be able to help. 381 00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:43,060 So apologies to everybody interested in this. And there's also a related question about the environmental impacts of cryptocurrencies. 382 00:43:43,060 --> 00:43:44,800 But I just wondered, 383 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:52,420 have you or your teams done much thinking about the intersection between novel currencies and environmental protection or environmental damage, 384 00:43:52,420 --> 00:44:00,560 for that matter? So the impact on the carbon footprint we all know and understand, and that's something that we cannot walk away from, right? 385 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,410 But that's known and and complex. 386 00:44:05,410 --> 00:44:13,490 And I think I have to be honest and say, no, we have not done detailed work on this. 387 00:44:13,490 --> 00:44:21,020 What we have understood very clearly in our new strategy that we are that we just had approved in the United Nations 388 00:44:21,020 --> 00:44:27,770 Environmental Assembly that happened a couple of months ago and which will go to kick into force at the end of the year. 389 00:44:27,770 --> 00:44:33,860 It's a four year strategy where we are making a significant emphasis on the digital transformation, 390 00:44:33,860 --> 00:44:48,310 where we would try to work on a I on digital transformation for environmental stewardship and protection and clearly understanding what. 391 00:44:48,310 --> 00:44:54,280 Under engaging with crypto, engaging with big data, engaging, getting, 392 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,560 engaging with a eye is something that we all saying and people like me don't understand 393 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,480 the post of it because I'm completely not qualified to speak to these issues. 394 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:13,180 But there are people who are. And so what we are establishing now is a network of people who can help us. 395 00:45:13,180 --> 00:45:19,690 I mean, I'm lucky to have some brilliant colleagues who work in this field, but that's not where we have the armies of people. 396 00:45:19,690 --> 00:45:27,680 And so we need to reach out and understand more. And whether whether that will be an opportunity to drive funding there. 397 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,130 We've seen what I mean. We saw what Douche Coin was doing just recently, 398 00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:40,900 and it's sort of shocking that what community action can do and stand up companies and not as the case may be. 399 00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:45,790 And that was just sort of done as a joke initially when it was launched, as I understand. 400 00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:54,400 So I think there are ways of trying to begin to understand this new market and this new tool and instrument. 401 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,390 But we are not there. I have to say also finally, that the secretary is very, 402 00:45:58,390 --> 00:46:04,600 very interested in digital transformation and has launched a digital transformation 403 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:14,920 task force and platform and strategy precisely to lift the U.N. into into this. 404 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,820 This sphere we have. And just a final point. 405 00:46:18,820 --> 00:46:24,280 I would say we have promoted digital transformation through what we call the Coalition for Digital Environmental 406 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:31,540 Sustainability that was launched at the time when the secretary general's digital roadmap was launched. 407 00:46:31,540 --> 00:46:41,020 And that is, an open, multi-stakeholder community of engaged digital actors in the environmental space is more than data. 408 00:46:41,020 --> 00:46:48,520 We have the World Environment Situation Room at unit, but it's looking at how we can use that technology for good. 409 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:56,390 But that's a very bad answer to Christoph because it sounds like he knows much more about this than I will and I do. 410 00:46:56,390 --> 00:47:02,020 We'll have to have another session on digital currencies and the environment at some point. 411 00:47:02,020 --> 00:47:05,980 That'd be fun, actually. I think that a lot. I want to. 412 00:47:05,980 --> 00:47:13,360 We're running low on time. As always, I want to come to, well, actually take the point about cryptocurrencies, 413 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:19,720 which which do enable a kind of coordination that doesn't have a central actor and come 414 00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:23,500 back to this question of international coordination around here because as we know, 415 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:31,420 many of the biodiversity that we need, protecting many of our natural assets are global public goods. 416 00:47:31,420 --> 00:47:40,840 Some of them are sitting within national boundaries. Others aren't and kind of intriguingly, last last conversation with Partha. 417 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,070 He put forward this idea, which is in the review page 40. 418 00:47:45,070 --> 00:47:54,820 If you're interested. And 72, that perhaps we need a new international organisation, maybe like the World Bank or the IMF, 419 00:47:54,820 --> 00:48:04,270 he said, to monitor and manage the global commons and in particular, perhaps imposing charges on the open seas and then using the revenues raised to 420 00:48:04,270 --> 00:48:08,320 support the protection of global public goods within particular boundaries, 421 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:19,180 and that, if it were to work, would be an answer to Andy Johnson's question about how do we help countries that are nature rich and cash poor. 422 00:48:19,180 --> 00:48:26,830 So I guess the broader question here is how do we go about achieving the kind of necessary international coordination here? 423 00:48:26,830 --> 00:48:37,430 What are the what are the best mechanisms to manage the flows of finance from where the money is sitting to where it needs to go to protect nature? 424 00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:44,390 Look, I mean, I'll get to that, but can I just say that right now we have a pandemic where vaccine hoarding has been the name of the game? 425 00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:50,240 If you had the money for the vaccines, you kept them for your population and the rest of the world has not have access. 426 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:55,490 Commitments have been made to COVAX, the collective vaccination effort. 427 00:48:55,490 --> 00:49:01,700 And they're not being followed through. That's just for a little vaccine, right? 428 00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:10,310 That's just for a little vaccine. So the first point is really international solidarity means what international solidarity? 429 00:49:10,310 --> 00:49:14,000 Words are easy, but actually actions have to follow through. 430 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:21,740 And that means that people in the wealthier countries actually need to insist on that solidarity. 431 00:49:21,740 --> 00:49:29,300 And are we ready to do that? I would hope that we are, but the lessons from the vaccine story are not that good. 432 00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:34,820 So here in Kenya, not even one percent are vaccinated. So, so this is. 433 00:49:34,820 --> 00:49:45,380 So here we are. But no. So the idea of living up to the commitments we have made over the decades is real. 434 00:49:45,380 --> 00:49:50,660 And part, of course, is absolutely right. We've made the commitments under biodiversity. 435 00:49:50,660 --> 00:49:58,580 If we had lived up and delivered what we promised that COP 10, we'd be in a very different setting for biodiversity today. 436 00:49:58,580 --> 00:50:07,730 If we had delivered and understood what we what science told us from the IPCC on climate, we would be very different. 437 00:50:07,730 --> 00:50:17,960 So the first thing is really before we begin a never ending consultation on establishing this big edifice that I can see in the minds, 438 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,550 I would be very attractive, but we haven't even been able to agree on a carbon tax. 439 00:50:22,550 --> 00:50:28,490 So I think we have a long way to go. Article six remains unfinished as far as the Paris accord is concerned. 440 00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:34,460 So we probably can't get a multilateral agreement to such a grandiose idea. 441 00:50:34,460 --> 00:50:38,870 However interesting it might be academically speaking. So let's do this. 442 00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:44,390 Let's deliver on the commitments we've made. Let's deliver on the conventions we've made, 443 00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:52,580 and I hope that the multilateral organisations that are charged with environmental stewardship, which is, you know, 444 00:50:52,580 --> 00:51:00,320 would receive the adequate funding and the adequate support and the expectations people should demand things of us too, 445 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:08,480 that we can, that we have the ability and the teeth to deliver what is needed. 446 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:13,160 And it's it's hard right now in the multilateral setting. 447 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:19,670 It has become easier as we have sort of seen the US come back into the climate accord, et cetera. 448 00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:23,390 But there are divisions and you just need to open your newspaper to understand that these 449 00:51:23,390 --> 00:51:31,220 divisions that reflect in the global geopolitics are obviously also reflected in multilateralism. 450 00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:39,980 But if we are concerned about the next generation, if we are concerned about sustainability and poverty reduction even in the wealthier countries, 451 00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:45,980 we have to take care of our planet because that is what sustains us. 452 00:51:45,980 --> 00:51:53,300 So I want to pick up on the point you made there about international solidarity and values and trying, if I can. 453 00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:57,620 And probably we're going towards the a group, a few questions into one. 454 00:51:57,620 --> 00:52:03,230 So there's one from Viviana on the ethics again of valuing nature. 455 00:52:03,230 --> 00:52:12,350 And her point really is, isn't it? Human values that need to be shifted is perhaps not a population issue. 456 00:52:12,350 --> 00:52:21,740 It's a consumption issue, and we need to think about our values and Jesse's Jesse. 457 00:52:21,740 --> 00:52:30,920 My apologies. Francis correctly made a kind of similar point that if we're using the economic financial frameworks that we have, 458 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:39,410 that's actually been depleting nature with profits as a key motivation isn't, isn't this to get things backwards? 459 00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:47,210 We're putting a square peg in a round hole. We need to be rethinking the underlying objectives and values and actually to add another one, 460 00:52:47,210 --> 00:52:52,350 Patrick Walkden has said, Well, don't we need different measures of what success looks like? 461 00:52:52,350 --> 00:53:01,970 Just kind of related to the point about what we value, what we find important. Do we need a different metric, not GDP, to measure progress? 462 00:53:01,970 --> 00:53:06,350 And you've already spoken about inclusive wealth as a as a metric. 463 00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:10,760 So I wonder if you might kind of reflect upon the the solidarity human values? 464 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,760 How do we get a shift towards, I guess, 465 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:22,310 a more enlightened human population that realises that we we just need to work together on these issues or we're stopped? 466 00:53:22,310 --> 00:53:26,000 Yeah. I mean, these are brilliant, brilliant points, 467 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:33,230 and I think that the I will say that I think that the generally the younger generation 468 00:53:33,230 --> 00:53:43,850 today is much further ahead in that enlightenment than the generation of past. 469 00:53:43,850 --> 00:53:48,380 And maybe it's because the crisis that is looming on the horizon. 470 00:53:48,380 --> 00:53:49,520 So that's the first point. 471 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:56,390 Now, as I would always say, well, you know, don't put it on us, you know, you guys fix it, you're still sitting in the chairs. 472 00:53:56,390 --> 00:54:01,430 And that's a very valuable point that she she makes again and again. 473 00:54:01,430 --> 00:54:05,600 So but but I do think that that Viviana is correct. 474 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:17,150 It is the human values that needs shifting. We relaunched just a month and a half ago, a report called Making Peace with Nature. 475 00:54:17,150 --> 00:54:27,830 It's a significant report that we and in which we describe that we need exactly what Patrick spoke to. 476 00:54:27,830 --> 00:54:36,050 A fundamental rethink of what success look like looks like a fundamental rethink of economy. 477 00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:44,440 A fundamental rethink of. All of society of business, there's lots of detail in it, 478 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:56,980 but it essentially is is challenging ourselves to rethink the economic system as we know them today. 479 00:54:56,980 --> 00:55:07,480 And that's what Jesse was saying, because if we continue and I will say that we still need growth in certain countries, 480 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:15,880 and I just had to slide that in because you still have 100 million people going to bed hungry every night, 481 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:21,520 800 million people going to bed hungry every night and over a billion people living in extreme poverty. 482 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:26,800 But we also need to have a redistribution across across a global setting. 483 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:32,680 But but but I will say that yes, it is about values. 484 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,730 Yes, it is about a fundamental shift in our framework. 485 00:55:36,730 --> 00:55:42,100 And yes, it is about having different measures of what success looks like. 486 00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:50,050 So the question is how to write, because these are the issues that become difficult. 487 00:55:50,050 --> 00:56:04,150 But that is where we as voters, we as global citizens, we as academicians and educators and students and international bureaucrats like myself, 488 00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:10,840 we have to speak out and demand things because that's how systems change. 489 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:17,320 That's how they changed in the past. That's how fundamental societal shifts happen in that we demand it. 490 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:22,490 And at times the popular demand for change is ahead of the political will. 491 00:56:22,490 --> 00:56:32,020 Yeah, but it is. By driving the popular demand that the political world shifts, the Secretary-General has often said power is not given it is taken. 492 00:56:32,020 --> 00:56:40,870 He says that often when he speaks to young people and when he speaks to women or other oppressed groups around the world, and it is true. 493 00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:51,430 But it is about driving that, that demand. And I think we well by events such as what you have here, we are helping drive it in the right direction. 494 00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:56,620 And a quick kind of postscript to that. I'm just going to tack on a question by Joseph, 495 00:56:56,620 --> 00:57:04,030 which is that if we've got to pressure the politicians and we've got to build these social movements to think about, 496 00:57:04,030 --> 00:57:08,380 you know, enlightenment values, what's important in a different way. 497 00:57:08,380 --> 00:57:14,770 His question is, well, isn't this sort of economic paradigm, the desk of the review that I work in that you work in, 498 00:57:14,770 --> 00:57:21,010 could that alienate the very people who we need to get passionate about these questions to drive change? 499 00:57:21,010 --> 00:57:26,170 Is it is it perhaps a kind of paradox or an irony that that's the thing that you need to 500 00:57:26,170 --> 00:57:30,610 drive the shift in the financial and economic systems isn't the economics in the finance, 501 00:57:30,610 --> 00:57:35,230 it's the passion in the heart and the and the social movements as you need, 502 00:57:35,230 --> 00:57:45,010 both because at the end of the day, society runs on, on companies, on financing. 503 00:57:45,010 --> 00:57:48,850 It doesn't run on, on planned economy. 504 00:57:48,850 --> 00:57:55,420 And I don't think that that's the direction of travel. And so we need to ensure that we a go back to where we started, 505 00:57:55,420 --> 00:58:01,600 that the guardrails that you and I set or that we ask our governments to set are 506 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:10,000 such that the economics are driving in the direction of long term sustainability. 507 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:18,620 But and we need to get those finances just as passionate and just as engaged as the activists. 508 00:58:18,620 --> 00:58:23,690 And the thing is that therein lies the opportunities for the future in renewable, 509 00:58:23,690 --> 00:58:29,030 in green, in nature, positive agriculture and sustainable consumption and production. 510 00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:36,980 That's where opportunities will lie. And then and all the aspects I mentioned relation to gender and empowerment. 511 00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:42,740 Well, I think that is a marvellous place to wrap up this very enjoyable conversation. 512 00:58:42,740 --> 00:58:46,910 Thank you very much for your time. And I'm sure others have enjoyed it, too. 513 00:58:46,910 --> 00:58:52,790 I'm sorry. We still have well over a dozen, if not more, questions remaining. 514 00:58:52,790 --> 00:58:56,300 I will lock them, will try and get to them in subsequent sessions. 515 00:58:56,300 --> 00:59:02,300 As I said earlier, we have a session on the 3rd of June with Professor Dame Henrietta Moore and Charles Godfrey. 516 00:59:02,300 --> 00:59:08,900 And on the 17th of June with Natalie Sutton and me, I'll be back again chairing that one. 517 00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:15,620 So it remains really to thank you for all the work you're doing on this agenda and on many others, as we've heard. 518 00:59:15,620 --> 00:59:19,640 And thanks for your partnership and support of what Oxford is doing here too. 519 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:26,660 And thank you very much, of course, for your time today. Thanks. Thank you so much, Cameron, and thank you to everybody who participated. 520 00:59:26,660 --> 00:59:28,814 Thank you.