1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,340 Welcome, everyone, to this latest edition of Oxford Net zero Climate in the Balance. 2 00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:07,380 Our series of conversations this term, 3 00:00:07,380 --> 00:00:14,720 exploring the critical questions and issues if we are to achieve a world of net zero emissions and hence a stable climate. 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,000 I'm Steve Smith. For those of you who haven't tuned in to one of these already, 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:24,360 I'm executive director of the Oxford Net Zero Initiative, and it's a pleasure to be hosting today. 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:29,700 This week, we're discussing the race to zero by cities, businesses and investors. 7 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:34,350 Now, those of you who joined last week will remember we discussed the fact that despite 8 00:00:34,350 --> 00:00:38,370 a lot of the focus is on national governments when it comes to climate action, 9 00:00:38,370 --> 00:00:43,650 there's an awful lot of action also going on at the levels of cities, regions and local governments. 10 00:00:43,650 --> 00:00:52,140 And you may have heard two of the Race to Zero campaign, which is a UNled initiative in the run up to twenty six climate negotiations this year, 11 00:00:52,140 --> 00:01:01,650 designed to rally cities, regions, but also businesses and investors and a host of other non-governmental actors to set ambitious net zero targets. 12 00:01:01,650 --> 00:01:10,050 They have now around one thousand five hundred entities signed up, covering a large fraction of global emissions and global GDP. 13 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:15,720 So it's worth us taking a closer look at these targets and asking what the opportunities might be for them 14 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:21,510 to add further momentum as we head for net zero and also about some of the potential challenges up ahead. 15 00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:29,910 So to date, help me with that. I'm delighted to be joined by Eva Brophy and Tom Hale, who are going to help us go through this topic. 16 00:01:29,910 --> 00:01:33,480 If a Brophy is a lecturer in innovation and enterprise, 17 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:39,270 jointly at the School of Enterprise and the Environment and also the side business school in Oxford. 18 00:01:39,270 --> 00:01:46,350 Her research focuses on how businesses deal with big systemic environmental challenges, not least climate change. 19 00:01:46,350 --> 00:01:51,570 She studied this in a number of contexts, including electrification in sub-Saharan Africa, 20 00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:54,870 and is interested in both the innovations that businesses make and the 21 00:01:54,870 --> 00:02:00,030 collaborations needed across different organisations to realise such coordinated, 22 00:02:00,030 --> 00:02:08,520 large scale system transformations. And Tom Hale is associate professor of Global Public Policy at the School of Government. 23 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:17,070 His interests are also in the area of collaboration across boundaries to solve big problems, but coming from the angle of political institutions. 24 00:02:17,070 --> 00:02:25,110 So he's published on topics across issues of the environment, economics and health, and has been particularly busy over the last 12 months, 25 00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:30,900 both as leader of the Oxford covid-19 Government Response Tracker, which you may have seen in the news, 26 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:36,870 but also as chair of the Expert Review Group for the Race to Zero campaign for the UN. 27 00:02:36,870 --> 00:02:41,190 So before we kick off just the usual reminders before we get going, 28 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:47,070 we're recording this talk so you can view it again on YouTube on the Oxford Martin school channel there. 29 00:02:47,070 --> 00:02:52,770 And we would really like you to send in your questions for Tom and Effa as we go along. 30 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:59,610 To do that, you need to be viewing on cast and you should be able to see and ask a question button at the bottom of your screen. 31 00:02:59,610 --> 00:03:02,230 So click onto that. You can type in your question. 32 00:03:02,230 --> 00:03:10,770 Very importantly, you can also vote on questions you'd like to be answered and we will work our way through most popular ones as time allows. 33 00:03:10,770 --> 00:03:16,200 We'll try and make sure we have plenty of time for questions as good to have a proper conversation. 34 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,410 So I will hand over without further ado to Tom, 35 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:26,970 who I think is going to tell us a bit about the race to zero and some of the high level issues for businesses and cities and investors. 36 00:03:26,970 --> 00:03:32,340 Thanks, Tom. Thank you, Steve, for that kind introduction and thank you, everyone, for joining us today. 37 00:03:32,340 --> 00:03:37,470 I'm going to share my screen and try to share with you some ideas on how the best zero is working 38 00:03:37,470 --> 00:03:43,140 and also how that zero targets are spreading around the world and what we might make of that. 39 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:52,850 So bear with me for a moment to share this with you. Right, writes. 40 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:58,250 So we've all seen, of course, a lot of mansio targets proliferating around the world, 41 00:03:58,250 --> 00:04:01,070 and we wanted to talk about briefly, it's really what we can make of this. 42 00:04:01,070 --> 00:04:06,200 What are they really representing a serious movement to address the goals of the Paris agreement? 43 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:16,880 Or are they, as many claim, greenwash in different ways as the racist campaign, which is a major effort and interacting with this debate? 44 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:23,210 So the premise certainly what this report is, my remarks are a report that's actually coming out next week, 45 00:04:23,210 --> 00:04:31,240 which is a joint effort of us here in Oxford and parts of Oxford and the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit, 46 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,110 a non-profit group that works to communicate on climate issues. 47 00:04:36,110 --> 00:04:43,040 And this is what we're having a sneak peek of this question of what you see around the world in terms of net zero targets. 48 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,030 So might avoid going to too many the details because they're all come out in support of that. 49 00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:53,120 What's your appetite for an exciting read? And coming up next week. 50 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:58,880 This is called work, including hour by hour co-host, host today, Steve Smith. 51 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:06,920 But you know, especially and I want to say this is really powered by data collection efforts by over 50 Oxford students over the course of last year. 52 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,930 So this is really very much a team effort I'm talking about today. 53 00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:19,030 So. I think the starting point for our question was really what is net zero evening? 54 00:05:19,030 --> 00:05:26,280 As we know, we've seen a lot of criticism around the idea of Natsu, especially in recent months, rescuing example from last year. 55 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:27,780 Here's a short clip showing you. 56 00:05:27,780 --> 00:05:40,920 We're not telling you to keep talking about reaching net zero emissions or carbon neutrality by cheating and fiddling around with numbers. 57 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:50,640 We're not telling you to offset your emissions by just paying someone else to plant trees in places like Africa, 58 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:59,070 while at the same time forests like the Amazon are being slaughtered as an infinitely higher rate. 59 00:05:59,070 --> 00:06:11,430 Planting trees is good, of course, but it's nowhere near enough of what is needed and it cannot replace real mitigation and rewilding nature. 60 00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:22,510 So here's a common argument. We hear from many others that zero actually doesn't mean what is not consistent with efforts to achieve the goals, 61 00:06:22,510 --> 00:06:32,010 the MFAT to potentially abused concept and such a degree, which of course, comes from voices of the activists like Rita. 62 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:39,390 And a recent report, for example, from Friends of Friends of the Earth International, which called this whole concept chasing carbon unicorns. 63 00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:42,530 But you also, of course, hear it from even a much more mainstream. 64 00:06:42,530 --> 00:06:50,070 But since there's an article about NAFTA yesterday here which is talking about the need for companies to put forward serious net zero targets, 65 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:55,410 so a lot of attention is focussed on this question of what makes it a net zero target, good or bad, 66 00:06:55,410 --> 00:07:01,020 and how do we make sure we have more the kind of the bad kind and how can we tell the difference? 67 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:05,520 Well, the risk to zero is a campaign that's trying to do something in that domain. 68 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:14,970 This is a campaign that's quite unique, actually. It's run by these high level climate champions who are the official people tasked by the process, 69 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:22,860 by the NSC process with mobilising commitments from subnational non-state actors, cities, businesses, states and regions, et cetera. 70 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:29,130 And unlike previous mobilisation efforts by these actors, the current effort, the race to zero, 71 00:07:29,130 --> 00:07:34,890 has actually established a fairly robust criteria process to try to make sure that it's mobilising 72 00:07:34,890 --> 00:07:40,620 the right kinds of efforts as basically for starting line criteria and then to leadership practises, 73 00:07:40,620 --> 00:07:48,390 as they're called by the campaign. The starting criteria are really procedural steps to make sure you have a pledge as 1997 before 2050, 74 00:07:48,390 --> 00:07:51,330 a plan for meeting it, that you're taking immediate steps. 75 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:56,100 Number three, proceed to do so and that you're publishing your results in a transparent way. 76 00:07:56,100 --> 00:08:03,840 And then on the substance, the leadership practises the campaigns, trying to make sure that different entities are setting that zero targets include 77 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,440 all of their all the emissions that can be attributed to them following the 78 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,730 best practises and methodologies and also managing offsetting to the extent 79 00:08:11,730 --> 00:08:16,320 they're doing or saying they're doing it in a way that's net zero consistent. 80 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,970 And this is these are kind of an interesting effort to find, if you will, 81 00:08:20,970 --> 00:08:27,300 orchestrate or steer this universe of net zero targets toward a science based conception. 82 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:32,370 If you're interested, you can read more about the exact criteria there. 83 00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:40,230 But the question arises, of course, how much of a groundswell of Dencio targets actually are aligning with these criteria? 84 00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:44,250 So that's what we aim to set up the study in this report. 85 00:08:44,250 --> 00:08:50,510 And to be clear, this is not an official RenaissanceRe report is not trying to specifically operationalise the race. 86 00:08:50,510 --> 00:08:56,130 Zero criteria to see who's kind of meeting them or not is trying to assess the wider universe of net zero targets, 87 00:08:56,130 --> 00:09:01,630 those that are in the race to zero and some that aren't against sort of benchmarks, 88 00:09:01,630 --> 00:09:06,360 robustness that are drawn on, but not necessarily exactly the same as the basis of your criteria. 89 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,880 So a key distinction there. 90 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:17,190 It's a really big set of activities we're trying to look at in this report, over 4000 different entities and includes countries, states and regions, 91 00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:20,250 provinces and the world's top twenty five emitters, 92 00:09:20,250 --> 00:09:29,160 cities with populations larger than 500000 and all of the world's 20 largest public companies, as defined by the Forbes global two thousand. 93 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:29,670 So in total, 94 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:37,200 we're looking at over 4000 actors and we're trying to see a do they have a net zero target or things like climate neutrality that are similar? 95 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:44,550 And if they do have those targets, are they robust? Looking at their criteria, I just mentioned and as I said, 96 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:52,740 this work was done by over 50 students using Internet searches for publicly available information as they entered into a standardised coding. 97 00:09:52,740 --> 00:10:00,630 So it is quite a large effort to try to figure out what's going on with this groundswell and see what targets are the most exciting part. 98 00:10:00,630 --> 00:10:06,900 What do we find, as I said, where this report is coming out next week. So this must be a little sneak preview, 99 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:15,030 but some already some of the interesting findings that I think resonate with some of the other criticisms and voices we're hearing on this topic. 100 00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:19,860 First, if you look at the targets and the timing of those targets, you see, as you said, that much of the world, 101 00:10:19,860 --> 00:10:24,750 indeed, most of the world is now covered by a net zero target or similar kind of target. 102 00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:28,680 And most of those have a 20 50 deadline, actually about two thirds. 103 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:36,900 The world economy, measured by purchasing power parity, is currently covered by net zero target, and that accounts for about 60 percent of emissions. 104 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:40,260 So if you think about where we were just five years ago, 105 00:10:40,260 --> 00:10:47,760 at the start of the year after the Paris agreement was signed and ratified, this is huge progress. 106 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:54,420 We've gone from a concept that was really sort of initial at that time to suddenly covering the majority of the world economy. 107 00:10:54,420 --> 00:11:01,340 That's really a huge, huge achievement. But of course, the robustness is now the next step. 108 00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:08,020 So if you look at a second finding status, you see that most of these targets are still in the proposed or aspirational stage. 109 00:11:08,020 --> 00:11:13,640 They may be existing a policy document for a company, for a country or some other jurisdiction, 110 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:21,080 or they might be in a press release for a company, but we need to see some more of them to be translated into kind of hard binding targets. 111 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:27,110 So if they're over one hundred twenty national targets, we see only seven are actually enshrined in law. 112 00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:36,860 Actually, the U.K. is a good example of country where where that kind of legal enshrining has had an important effect on climate policy. 113 00:11:36,860 --> 00:11:39,170 So we're probably remain there. 114 00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:45,620 If you look at the coverage of these targets, what's actually been included in that zero or not, you see also some room for improvement. 115 00:11:45,620 --> 00:11:54,590 So many of the cities and countries and also states and regions include only carbon and then haven't mentioned other greenhouse gases. 116 00:11:54,590 --> 00:12:02,900 And only about a third of companies include all of scope three in their emissions that they're seeking to bring to zero. 117 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:04,490 So that's, again, 118 00:12:04,490 --> 00:12:13,580 an important gap that we need to think about how to to build improve on the biggest gap that we saw around the question of offsetting. 119 00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:19,940 And here is really an informational gap. Most actors either don't say if they're going to use offsetting or not or don't 120 00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:24,620 tell us very much information about how they intend to approach offsetting. 121 00:12:24,620 --> 00:12:32,030 And very, very few have. Maybe they said, no, we won't use any offsets or if we do use offsets abandoned by these very specific criteria. 122 00:12:32,030 --> 00:12:36,410 So this is another example where I think there's a lot of room for for further strengthening. 123 00:12:36,410 --> 00:12:43,130 And finally, even on governance, basic governance, questions like having reporting and interim targets is more that can be done. 124 00:12:43,130 --> 00:12:49,940 Actually, addressing the need to meet subnational governments tend to have the most room for improvement on that criterion. 125 00:12:49,940 --> 00:12:53,850 And and actually, companies are doing a bit better in that domain. 126 00:12:53,850 --> 00:12:59,850 That probably reflects the different governance arrangements around those two sets of actors and governance. 127 00:12:59,850 --> 00:13:05,040 The question, equity, how much to these different actors saying that's your target is considered equity or not? 128 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:13,040 We find actually is a bit of a gap where all of them should probably do a better job of thinking about how equity affects their approach, etc. 129 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:23,030 So the basic message is we're seeing a lot of targets, but also a huge need for more robust targets with the aim, with a few implications. 130 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:28,580 So I think we're arguably in a period of great success from that zero, which is led to a kind of wild west, 131 00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:34,010 if you will, of different definitions and different standards being proliferating across the world. 132 00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:38,570 So that's, I think, the sort of sometimes a good problem to have, 133 00:13:38,570 --> 00:13:43,970 because it means people are not actually grappling with what's required to limit to stop climate change. 134 00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:48,050 In other words, to bring the world to a state of net zero emissions. 135 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:52,790 And therefore, it also creates new challenges, new challenges about how to define it. 136 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:57,290 And if you recognise the Wild West still that you'll see it's from the TV show called 137 00:13:57,290 --> 00:14:01,280 West World or some of you might be familiar with where nothing is quite as it seems. 138 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:07,810 I think that might also apply to Natsuo targets and therefore highlights the need for further work. 139 00:14:07,810 --> 00:14:11,750 At the same time, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 140 00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:18,200 On other words, allow this sort of confusion we're seeing around mansio targets to limit 141 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,490 people's ability to actually drive transition toward what the climate requires, 142 00:14:22,490 --> 00:14:27,710 which is a balance between sources and sinks of greenhouse gases as soon as possible. 143 00:14:27,710 --> 00:14:34,400 And that's where I think the governance of net zero will really be key races. Here is, of course, an important, I think, initiative in that direction. 144 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:42,170 But it's a UN sort of campaign. It's not ultimately a regulatory agency or a kind of standards anybody. 145 00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:48,020 So the transition, I think, is going to be very important going forward is how these private standards are voluntary standards are emerging, 146 00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:53,480 get registered into different types of regulation in regulation by national governments, standards, 147 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,460 by organisations like the ISO, the International Organisation for Standardisation or others. 148 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:06,020 And if you look at prior examples of sort of private standards setting private voluntary regulations in the private sector, 149 00:15:06,020 --> 00:15:10,310 in the climate space, you'll see examples of how this can play out. 150 00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:15,950 So the history of the greenhouse gas protocol very much follows this model where private efforts 151 00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:20,940 and standards were developed by an NGO and then increasingly used in the private sector, 152 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:27,890 eventually helped to inform more binding restrictions by national governments and international organisations and others. 153 00:15:27,890 --> 00:15:35,330 So I think this is the direction of travel for net zero standards and where I hope the conversation can go next to less in the Wild West, 154 00:15:35,330 --> 00:15:39,680 but also not throw the baby out with the bathwater and instead moving toward rigorous 155 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:45,020 definitions of net zero that are going to help us all move more quickly to Paris climate. 156 00:15:45,020 --> 00:15:52,200 So leave it there. But thanks for your attention. I'm looking forward to Episcopals. Thank you very much, Tom. 157 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:58,330 A great summary, and I will give people a reminder to ask your questions in the bottom. 158 00:15:58,330 --> 00:16:04,140 We've got two so far. I'm sure there are plenty more of us. So to get stuck in the questions, we'd love to hear them. 159 00:16:04,140 --> 00:16:09,210 I'm going to hand over to you, though. If so, what are your reactions to the kind of findings there? 160 00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:15,180 And how do they match your experience of of working with organisations directly to sort of get around, 161 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:20,280 get their head around the transformations necessary for that? Thanks very much, Steven. 162 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:29,040 Thanks a lot, Tom. I think, first of all, it's an incredible effort to actually do this comparison across so many different types of entities. 163 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,330 And the number of people involved shows how difficult it is actually to to do that, 164 00:16:33,330 --> 00:16:38,940 to collect the information that allows us to do some sort of benchmarking. 165 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:42,600 So I think it's a it's a fantastic effort. 166 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:49,650 I think a couple of things jump out at me from from the reports and from your remarks, Tom, that I'd like to pick up on. 167 00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:56,890 And the first is kind of going back to this sense that we've made huge progress in the last couple of years. 168 00:16:56,890 --> 00:17:06,030 And to me, you highlighted a number of companies, a third of companies cover all of their emissions and in their targets, 169 00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:08,220 you highlighted that is quite a low number to me. 170 00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:21,660 That's actually a huge sign of progress, especially on corporate targets and having this coverage of of all of the emissions that are associated. 171 00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:29,250 Also extending into value chains, I think is a really good sign that we're progressing into a much more systemic understanding, 172 00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:35,290 especially from businesses across different industries of what's required to be able to make lasting change. 173 00:17:35,290 --> 00:17:44,880 So I think that's kind of one thing that, yes, of course, we need to we need to have more and get that number of especially the largest companies 174 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:52,290 across industries setting targets and reporting on on all of their emissions. 175 00:17:52,290 --> 00:17:56,070 But I think I see a sign of hope from that as well. 176 00:17:56,070 --> 00:18:05,610 And given the past that we've come from in the last especially in the last decade or so, that's kind of one positive sign. 177 00:18:05,610 --> 00:18:14,070 And I think the the second thing to me, though, is going back to this, how you started the definition of net zero. 178 00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:22,470 And I think we need to be, as you said, keeping a balance between allowing some diversity of approaches right now while we're learning 179 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:29,100 and enabling different types of approaches to emerge from different types of entities, 180 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,890 for example. But we have to have some sort of clear, 181 00:18:31,890 --> 00:18:36,780 overarching principles then I think that's getting the balance right between this kind of diversity of 182 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:42,360 approaches and innovation around kind of target setting and the types of plans that are implemented. 183 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:43,320 But then at the same time, 184 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:50,580 having overarching principles I think is really critical and comes out very nicely from from the work that that you've done. 185 00:18:50,580 --> 00:18:58,950 And then the third main thing to me that I picked up from the report is that half of the companies that you actually look 186 00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:07,140 at in their targets are publishing an action plan on the how of how they're going to actually get to to reaching a target. 187 00:19:07,140 --> 00:19:13,650 And I just I wanted to pick up a little bit on that because we've been doing a lot of work trying to 188 00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:20,340 to develop the skills that are required for those action plans to be implemented in organisations, 189 00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:31,170 because I think that's a critical challenge that comes next or is is playing out in many different organisations across sectors and across industries. 190 00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:35,400 We're launching the Oxford Climate Emergency Programme at the end of this month, 191 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:41,310 which is an online executive education programme jointly between the business school and the Smith School. 192 00:19:41,310 --> 00:19:46,680 And critical to the programme is this idea of having an action plan. 193 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:52,290 So yes, it's important to have to set targets and to have a plan. 194 00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:57,270 But how we actually put those plans together is really critical and we need to do an 195 00:19:57,270 --> 00:20:04,890 awful lot more to learn how to do that as as individuals in complex organisations, 196 00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:12,390 across many different industries in the in the years to come and to be able to to go from commitments 197 00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:19,200 on these growing commitments that we're seeing and to really having lasting change and impact. 198 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,690 So what I'd like to to do is just to kind of pull out a couple of things from from what 199 00:20:24,690 --> 00:20:30,660 we're seeing and the types of skills that we think are really required from the programme 200 00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:35,400 and from the teaching that we've been doing at the at the business school in the Smith 201 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:41,850 School that I think really connects very nicely to some of these themes from your report. 202 00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:49,650 And I think it's all around Connexions, actually. And I think that's very core to the research that I do and the research that. 203 00:20:49,650 --> 00:20:53,880 Tom does as well. We're very interested in these connexions and collaborations, 204 00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:01,770 I think we just need to see a lot of that really dialled up in the in the next year in preparation for the race to zero and of course, 205 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:06,450 in the next decade. So getting from kind of targets to impact, 206 00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:14,880 I think that's kind of my going to be the focus for me and in teaching and research in the next couple of years. 207 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:24,450 And the first thing would be that it's absolutely critical to connect climate and net zero with the core strategy of any organisation. 208 00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:28,860 So I think that's something that is absolutely critical. 209 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:34,170 And we've seen in many different industries facing big transitions, 210 00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:40,200 the ones that get left behind are the ones that can't actually figure out how to change their overall 211 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,000 mindsets and their overall strategies in ways that will get them to the pace they need to be. 212 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:50,040 And that's not just a question of of climate. 213 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:56,040 It's also any kind of disruption that we have in industries, the companies that get left behind. 214 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,470 It's not just a question of the technological capabilities that they have in their organisations. 215 00:22:01,470 --> 00:22:08,220 It's really about a mindset change, stepping back and thinking about bigger questions. 216 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:15,100 Right. And this kind of comes back to this question of defining net zero even as any kind of organisation. 217 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:24,510 What does that mean to to my organisation and the impact that I have in my industry, in my sector? 218 00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:34,830 We have been doing lots of work and thinking about the role of business model innovation to help companies in in answering those big questions. 219 00:22:34,830 --> 00:22:39,150 Right. So stepping back and thinking about, yes, I have a net zero targets, 220 00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:44,790 but what does that mean ultimately to the products and services that I'm that I'm delivering? 221 00:22:44,790 --> 00:22:49,830 What kind of value do I want to actually create? How can that be captured and delivered? 222 00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:54,120 Maybe I need to be working with different with my suppliers very differently. 223 00:22:54,120 --> 00:23:02,670 So this connexion between net zero and core strategy of any type of organisation is absolutely critical. 224 00:23:02,670 --> 00:23:06,780 I think the second kind of theme, and this goes back to Tom, 225 00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:15,870 how you finished the the connexion between net zero and other goals is absolutely critical. 226 00:23:15,870 --> 00:23:25,410 We get his remarks, I think are very, very important to think about if we focus only on the things that we can measure and we're 227 00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:31,560 trying to kind of massage numbers and show that there is a balance between sources and sinks. 228 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:41,190 And we don't allow space for things that are not so easy to measure, like climate justice, then I think that's that's a very difficult space to be in. 229 00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:51,510 I think we need to at this point particularly have focussed on connecting net zero with and with other sustainable development goals, 230 00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:55,080 doing that in a way that allows us to have positive visions for the future. 231 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,860 And I think that's where the role of businesses can actually be really, 232 00:23:58,860 --> 00:24:07,680 really helpful in connecting beyond net zero, having this positive vision of the future that connects to people, 233 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:08,910 that connects to jobs, 234 00:24:08,910 --> 00:24:18,160 that connects to an opportunity for living in better ways in our cities and and working in places that we actually want to work in. 235 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,550 So I think that's that's a really, 236 00:24:20,550 --> 00:24:28,680 really important element to think about as we're translating and measuring benchmarking across time, different types of entities. 237 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:37,920 And then finally, the third kind of main thing that I would say is we started off this way, introducing myself and Tom. 238 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:47,040 Any individual organisation needs to be connecting with others in the way that they're setting targets and translating those targets into action. 239 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:53,850 So I think and this is where we need to see much more focus in the coming years. 240 00:24:53,850 --> 00:24:58,260 So I think up until just two or three years ago, 241 00:24:58,260 --> 00:25:07,890 we've had a very individual focussed approach to thinking about setting targets, particularly for businesses on on planet. 242 00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:20,460 And that's just not going to be enough. There needs to be concerted efforts to to connect with competitors to to think about what the implications 243 00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:29,160 might be of engaging them with with policymakers to enable competitive collaboration in different industries. 244 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:34,410 If we're going to see the types of systemic changes that need to happen across the board, 245 00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:41,400 it can also be collaborating with activists being part of initiatives like the Race to Zero. 246 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:47,460 These are new types of initiatives that are emerging and have been emerging over the last couple of years. 247 00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:56,460 But we need the skills in different. Types of organisations to be able to to know how to collaborate, when to collaborate, 248 00:25:56,460 --> 00:26:03,270 what how we're encouraging transparency and learning through these different collaborative initiatives. 249 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:09,150 And I don't think we know enough yet about how to how to do that and the skills that are 250 00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:15,000 required across different partners and collaborations and to make sure that there's a 251 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:21,150 focus on the individual goals for four different entities and the collective that this 252 00:26:21,150 --> 00:26:26,340 focus on the collective and measuring collective outcomes I think is absolutely critical. 253 00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:34,200 So I'm going to stop there with just trying to kind of connect the dots between, yes, we have huge momentum. 254 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,720 And I think your work on showcasing these targets really shows to me that's 255 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,100 why we've come so far in the last in the last couple of years in particular. 256 00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:48,450 But I think we still have this this gap between, yes. 257 00:26:48,450 --> 00:26:55,770 Understanding kind of definitions and benchmarking across different types of targets that your work is contributing to. 258 00:26:55,770 --> 00:27:01,800 But then also going a step further and translating the targets and commitments into into lasting change, 259 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:10,490 through and through action plans that are actually robust and lead to the type of types of impacts we need to see. 260 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:14,670 Thanks very much. For two things really struck out for me there. 261 00:27:14,670 --> 00:27:20,870 One is this framing of deep decarbonisation and net zero is as an opportunity for business rather than a restriction. 262 00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:27,530 And the other one was this idea that this kick starting all these interesting collaborations, such as the race to zero, often with competitors, 263 00:27:27,530 --> 00:27:34,160 and they feel like to two new things that we're still getting our head around, that climate change is sort of stimulating discussion. 264 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:40,340 And we'd love to talk to you more about that. But we've got lots of questions and we should we should address those. 265 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:48,110 A lot of them, I think, really centre on this point, which has come up at several times in the discussion about the definition of net zero, 266 00:27:48,110 --> 00:27:52,940 especially when you get down to the company or the other local level. 267 00:27:52,940 --> 00:27:57,810 I think maybe the kind of overarching question is summed up best by Anthony Caravan. 268 00:27:57,810 --> 00:27:59,690 I will dig into some of the details, 269 00:27:59,690 --> 00:28:08,180 but he asks and it seems there's a need for a universally recognised definition of net zero carbon positive or whatever you want to call it, 270 00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:16,490 is their work on this. So I'd like to ask you both that maybe Tom first and also maybe tack on, you know, is it desirable to have a single definition? 271 00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:24,050 We're talking about a huge range of different organisations dealing with different sources of emissions and sinks and that different spatial scale. 272 00:28:24,050 --> 00:28:36,830 So. So what's your view on that, Tom? So sorry, this morning, the new one behind the quick the question box, 273 00:28:36,830 --> 00:28:44,630 so I think it's a great question and there is a globally agreed definition of net zero for the planet, which you can find in the IPCC. 274 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:52,880 So I went back and forth in the glossary and asked what it says very simply, by anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases, 275 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,350 the atmosphere is balanced by anthropogenic removals of a specified period. 276 00:28:57,350 --> 00:29:00,800 So that's the finding that zero planetary scale. 277 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:07,980 And then the whole question becomes, OK, what does that mean for our individual business or city or investor? 278 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:11,690 Then he gets quite challenging. And I think there are two schools of thought. 279 00:29:11,690 --> 00:29:21,700 There's basically a school of thought that says an actor, an entity is net zero when its own emissions are balanced or either zero or balance. 280 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:28,160 Individual actions are balanced by sources that are like the things that are like with the ongoing mission. 281 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:34,670 So if you have to seen fossil fuel emissions destroying those, moving them in a permanent way, 282 00:29:34,670 --> 00:29:38,360 there's no school of thought, though, that says actually an actor is net zero. 283 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:47,270 One is following certain targets that align with some kind of scenario that leads to a world that's one net zero world. 284 00:29:47,270 --> 00:29:51,500 And that's quite different because it might mean that different sectors or different 285 00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:57,200 sections or different scenarios would give individual actor different kinds of targets. 286 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:03,110 So I think we see both possibilities, which impacts the science based initiative is a prime example sector based approach. 287 00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:06,860 Others have taken a kind of more conventional definition of net zero, 288 00:30:06,860 --> 00:30:11,480 meaning like two years or this is going to actually add up to zero or not and 289 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,190 must doesn't there like on a time frame of what might be aggressive actions? 290 00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:20,330 Might be some some improvement there. 291 00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:27,740 I think I agree with you that the key way to resolve this is to establish where the general scientific principles and 292 00:30:27,740 --> 00:30:33,680 then to encourage operationalisation that makes sense for different kinds of actors in different kinds of contexts, 293 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,820 as long as they're keeping faith with those core scientific principles. 294 00:30:37,820 --> 00:30:43,200 And my interpretation of what the Zero campaign is trying to do is exactly that sort of criteria 295 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,890 or really sort of meta criteria then to encourage upward convergence across toward them. 296 00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:59,300 We have only a very clear scientific definition for the world and then a lot of difficulty in applying that individual entities, 297 00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:04,250 but certainly encouraging to see how many how hard people are trying to figure this out. 298 00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:08,420 So final final word on this race is your campaign is going to be publishing a 299 00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:23,280 fictional lexicon for how they see these terms interacting so much that it takes. 300 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,320 Grace, yes, I just to pick up on a couple of things that Tom already mentioned, 301 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,710 I think this disconnect between the and the overall systemic impacts that we need to 302 00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:38,850 see at a planetary scale and then translating that down to individual organisations, 303 00:31:38,850 --> 00:31:47,200 I think that's what has stopped a lot of progress today, particularly in businesses. 304 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:57,000 And so trying to understand what such a complex environmental challenge on a global scale actually means for individual and entities. 305 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:03,360 I mean, that's absolutely critical to making progress. 306 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:15,570 And I would I would definitely agree with the the need to have more of an alignment to the sectors and 307 00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:23,430 industries in terms of how we're understanding the the targets being set by and by individual organisations. 308 00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:27,450 I think without coordination, 309 00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:37,950 we're not going to be able to see the types of impacts and pathways that are really required in the next in the next decades. 310 00:32:37,950 --> 00:32:47,520 And I think we're seeing a lot of a lot more companies particularly realising that in order to do that, 311 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,160 they need to be part of initiatives like the race to zero. 312 00:32:50,160 --> 00:33:01,890 So I think it's it's we're seeing a lot more alignment around this second school of thought that that might be explained. 313 00:33:01,890 --> 00:33:06,900 So I think it's it's not about necessarily single definitions. 314 00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:14,670 I think we need to to definitely have peer to peer principles and then allow for those to be translated in different ways, 315 00:33:14,670 --> 00:33:27,450 depending on geographies as well. I think that that has to be a very important part of this translation process and thinking about impacts and 316 00:33:27,450 --> 00:33:38,860 especially the dimension of the the impacts of climate that we need to to also be bringing into the picture. 317 00:33:38,860 --> 00:33:40,230 So so with that in mind, 318 00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:47,800 the kind of recognition that we're dealing with a wide range and there may not be at least a very simple one size fits all definition of net zero, 319 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,360 I think maybe we can drill down into a few specific aspects of how we define it. 320 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,400 Other people have asked and just get your takes, both of you, on those specifics. 321 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,860 So so one of them being asked by Ben Tufan what maybe it's a kind of two part question. 322 00:34:02,860 --> 00:34:08,200 How can we avoid well-meaning waffle, particularly over the use of offsetting in net zero plans? 323 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:14,080 But also, he points out, there are fundamentally difficult technologies to develop and scale before we get to net zero. 324 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,120 We've heard of some of those technologies and that's issues in previous weeks, actually. 325 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,130 So maybe perhaps I can ask you before to kick off with that point about technology, 326 00:34:24,130 --> 00:34:30,470 because a lot of these technologies will need to be developed by businesses and of course, businesses have a financial bottom line. 327 00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:36,490 So what do you think is the role of business in actually delivering some of these innovations which are currently expensive and difficult? 328 00:34:36,490 --> 00:34:40,600 And then maybe I could ask you, Tom, to speak to that one about offsetting what you found in your studies, 329 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:47,020 about the nature of offsetting and perhaps how that might need to change in a proper net zero world. 330 00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:54,030 So if a. Yeah, absolutely, so I think I mean, 331 00:34:54,030 --> 00:35:01,910 the the role of business has been critical already and scaling different technologies that have been very important for climate action. 332 00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:10,850 And so a lot of the work that I've been doing has been focussed on energy systems and innovation related to energy technologies. 333 00:35:10,850 --> 00:35:18,590 I think what's going to be critical in the years to come and this kind of goes back to a lot of the things that we've already been talking about. 334 00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:29,390 And our understanding of net zero is innovation around connecting new technologies in ways that actually means different needs. 335 00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:37,280 So, for example, in the case of renewables, we have lots of innovation and individual technologies, 336 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:46,130 lots of cost reductions that have happened over the last 15, 20 years, and particularly in solar and battery technologies. 337 00:35:46,130 --> 00:35:56,360 A lot of the innovation that needs to happen now is to to to package different types of solutions in ways that actually address people's needs, 338 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:06,290 whether that's in buildings, how they want to live and heat their homes or in in in different kinds of industries as well, 339 00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:11,720 where there are certain demands for for carbon renewables. 340 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:18,980 So I think the role of business for me in this in this next kind of decade is 341 00:36:18,980 --> 00:36:23,060 really it's really important to be asking those fundamental questions about 342 00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:28,160 what different types of customers actually need to as a starting point and to 343 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,710 be able to to feed back into the way the technologies are being developed. 344 00:36:33,710 --> 00:36:37,010 And I think we're seeing we're seeing more of that. 345 00:36:37,010 --> 00:36:42,480 There's more of an understanding, especially with carbon removal technologies, that we and that we need to be understanding. 346 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,350 Well, what what do different industries actually need in terms of carbon removal? 347 00:36:48,350 --> 00:36:58,040 And how can we actually develop those technologies in ways that we're interacting with the industries that really need this, the service? 348 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,500 And so I think we've we've learnt a lot from the progress that we've made on particularly on 349 00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:11,000 developing energy technologies and bringing customers and big users into conversations much, 350 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:18,290 much earlier on than has happened in the past. I think that's what we need to see more of in the future. 351 00:37:18,290 --> 00:37:19,280 And we see, I think, 352 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:31,580 promising examples of that happening and kind of integration of different technologies being a very important part of a company's role in innovation. 353 00:37:31,580 --> 00:37:39,200 And I think that that requires open approaches. It requires, again, lots of different types of collaborations and collaborative initiatives. 354 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:44,750 So I think we're just going to see much more replication of of initiatives for 355 00:37:44,750 --> 00:37:52,710 different purposes connected to genetic technologies in the years to come to. 356 00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:56,490 I think the asset in question is extremely important, it's really about, 357 00:37:56,490 --> 00:38:00,990 in many ways the most talked about and controversial and also quite difficult to understand. 358 00:38:00,990 --> 00:38:06,630 Part of the broader debate we're seeing now on net zero, I think is more distinguished. 359 00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:14,430 Two things before that, there was even a twinkle in a client, policymakers I lots of debates around offsetting as a tool for poor policy. 360 00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:21,810 And it's more documented difficulties of operationalising, offsetting or any kind of carbon credit exchange system, 361 00:38:21,810 --> 00:38:26,070 voluntary or regulatory or otherwise, to make it actually effective for reducing emissions. 362 00:38:26,070 --> 00:38:32,070 And if people are interested in those debates was a great book by David Victor. 363 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:38,460 It's co-author Daniel Conwell, who's making climate policy work, 364 00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:45,270 which goes into those difficulties quite nicely, says all of those kind of issues of operationalising it, 365 00:38:45,270 --> 00:38:50,070 but then adding zero as a new layer of complexity and technical requirements, 366 00:38:50,070 --> 00:38:55,140 because also in general, it's not the same as necessarily offsetting necessarily. 367 00:38:55,140 --> 00:39:04,170 And I would highly recommend another university publication on net zero aligned offsetting to think through those issues in detail. 368 00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:11,100 But to my mind, the two key issues are really sort of like the likeness of offsetting and on transition. 369 00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:21,300 So on the first one, you know, if you're taking if you're intending to take the carbon out of the atmosphere or in some way balance carbon, 370 00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:25,200 you're putting into the atmosphere or the greenhouse gases to make sure that what you're 371 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,310 balancing is like the thing you're putting it in has to be like in terms of quantity, 372 00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:37,260 of course. Also, like in terms of time, scale carbon we put out today, that's up to potentially thousands of years in the atmosphere. 373 00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:45,330 And if you're trying to compensate for that with a storage technology like a tree that may not last quite that long and we have more flexibility, 374 00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:49,800 then you're not really achieving like for like and there's also issues. 375 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:56,310 And second, the transition to offsetting today is not necessarily what's consistent with what offsetting will need to be 376 00:39:56,310 --> 00:40:04,470 to deal with any kind of residual emissions that are left over by the time we reach zero and even worse. 377 00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:10,140 Was a residual emission versus what sort of a thing that you might just want to keep for because it's too hard to get rid of. 378 00:40:10,140 --> 00:40:17,400 It's a very tricky thing. People disagree on the UK Committee on Climate Change had a very nice breakdown in the UK, at least, 379 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:25,440 of which sectors are more likely to be needing some residual emissions and which ones should really be getting all the way to zero. 380 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:32,460 And that's an important distinction. But I expect that to be a huge area of work going forward, define exactly what distribution's mean, 381 00:40:32,460 --> 00:40:41,860 who should be residual, who should or should not, and how we transition towards that outcome. 382 00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:46,480 So we'll move on to some questions of scope now, which the audience have been asking, Tom, 383 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:51,160 I think you touched on on the scope of activities that are included in these targets, 384 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:57,970 scope one, of course, and formal definition of the emissions that directly happen sort of within the fence of your activities, as it were. 385 00:40:57,970 --> 00:41:04,060 CO2 is then when you're using energy, electricity or heat, and that's coming from a power station elsewhere. 386 00:41:04,060 --> 00:41:07,690 And then three years, in a sense, your entire value chain. 387 00:41:07,690 --> 00:41:13,060 So sort of indirect emissions caused by caused by the product or service that you're dealing with. 388 00:41:13,060 --> 00:41:19,570 So Nick Air is watching and asks about those, in a sense, go to emissions, 389 00:41:19,570 --> 00:41:27,580 saying most most zero carbon energy will have to come from rural areas, be generated outside cities, but it may only be used in cities. 390 00:41:27,580 --> 00:41:31,350 So how do you think cities and local governments should deal with this? 391 00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:36,700 And then I think we had another question about SCOP three emissions. 392 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:41,710 Charlie Freitag says, Should corporate net zero targets include scope three? 393 00:41:41,710 --> 00:41:48,010 I think you've been assessing whether or not they do. Tom, I think there was also an article by Michael Liebreich a few days ago, 394 00:41:48,010 --> 00:41:52,420 perhaps querying whether it's sensible to include scope three net zero targets, 395 00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:55,930 because potentially you get a lot of double counting overcounting at targets. 396 00:41:55,930 --> 00:42:05,530 And so perhaps I can pass that to you, Tom, first and then if what do you think about the right answer for the scope of targets, 397 00:42:05,530 --> 00:42:10,360 the questions on the citizens and national governments? 398 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:17,140 For better or worse, the decision was made back in the early days of that policy that jurisdictions like that, 399 00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:22,600 like nation states and countries, will be we'll do the accounting based on total emissions. 400 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:29,620 So we're not looking at what the other products that the drivers of the city might use that are imported and elsewhere. 401 00:42:29,620 --> 00:42:35,080 That's not figured into the way we calculate emissions for cities today. 402 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,600 That's maybe worth revising and looking at one set, more ambitious targets. 403 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,790 We've seen some of the most ambitious ones begin to look at this question of consumption emissions, 404 00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:55,930 no question as much on how to and I think it's really about this disconnect between who's the user and who's the maker. 405 00:42:55,930 --> 00:43:00,880 I think from kind of your perspective, I don't think it's a problem because as we say, 406 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,170 particularly the concern of ours, I think it's more difficult political challenge there. 407 00:43:06,170 --> 00:43:13,540 You know, certain city may want to put demands on its providers to provide its energy that we 408 00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:18,700 have be consistent with the goals that the jurisdictions that are providing energy. 409 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:26,140 So it's more of a political choice and accounting one on the question of corporate scope. 410 00:43:26,140 --> 00:43:34,690 Three, this is a really interesting point that, you know, obviously one person's got three is another person's guilty to one. 411 00:43:34,690 --> 00:43:41,480 And we also don't overlap in this in this domain. So does that mean we should draw the boundaries here? 412 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:49,740 Are there my own view is that an entity that wants to be responsible for making sure it's dealing 413 00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:56,620 with carbon and as as remit should be looking at all emissions that contribute to all of them. 414 00:43:56,620 --> 00:44:01,360 And some of those would be 100 percent controlled by the entity as some of those would be five percent control. 415 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,590 But that doesn't mean it's not your responsibility if you only control five percent of it, 416 00:44:05,590 --> 00:44:11,800 it means you have to work with others to deal with those emissions dimensions. To people's point about the collaboration here, 417 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:20,500 this is not something that is solved by having every single individual entity go down to its micro piece of emissions. 418 00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:26,830 But the process to which everyone begins to do that will lead to the kind of collaboration that are necessary for the system as a whole to transform. 419 00:44:26,830 --> 00:44:36,010 So that's one example here. We now see a lot of financial entities beginning to take zero payments, which involves not just their own sculpturally, 420 00:44:36,010 --> 00:44:43,240 but often defines them in scope, three of the businesses that they're investing in lending to otherwise. 421 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:52,480 And that seems like quite a long chain of causality. However, those investors are making these kinds of purchase in a way that ensures that 422 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,010 there is sort of operationalisation of that will be as multipronged effort. 423 00:44:57,010 --> 00:45:01,900 That will include engagement with companies trying to work with companies to develop, 424 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,620 invest in technological solutions that will help companies get beyond it and 425 00:45:05,620 --> 00:45:10,150 might involve some sort of sticks as well as carrot sticks like divestment. 426 00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:18,190 It came to that, but it's a very complicated set of interactions that are implied by the scope three target for finance firms. 427 00:45:18,190 --> 00:45:22,510 So I don't think, you know, the complexity is not something we should stay away from. 428 00:45:22,510 --> 00:45:37,260 That's exactly where we need to work. Matthew. Yes, so I would I would definitely agree with with what Tom has shared about this, 429 00:45:37,260 --> 00:45:45,000 the purpose of Scope three reporting or reporting on all of I'm setting targets for 430 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:51,060 all of the emissions that are attributable attributable to an individual entity. 431 00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:56,610 I think what I would add is that I think it's it's not just about yes, of course, 432 00:45:56,610 --> 00:45:59,490 there's going to be double counting, but I think that that's exactly the point. 433 00:45:59,490 --> 00:46:05,070 It shows the interdependencies between the activities of different types of organisations. 434 00:46:05,070 --> 00:46:10,050 And I think until we understand those interdependencies better, 435 00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:19,920 we won't be able to make progress in getting to the the overall country and planetary targets that we need to reach. 436 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,970 So I think that's that's absolutely critical to making progress. 437 00:46:23,970 --> 00:46:30,010 That's the first thing that I would add. And the second is that I think the process of actually understanding the scope through 438 00:46:30,010 --> 00:46:37,380 emissions is more important in my mind than the actual numbers that are attributed. 439 00:46:37,380 --> 00:46:49,500 I think it's and I think this is also critical to understanding what we need to do now in terms of going from commitments to to to action plans. 440 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:56,760 So it's one thing to have a very good sense of the scope, three emissions of any individual entity, 441 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:06,510 but the process of actually going through understanding how your activities as an individual company or organisation connect to others, 442 00:47:06,510 --> 00:47:11,550 give you opportunities to identify which kinds of suppliers could I work with, 443 00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:20,100 and to be able to to reduce the emissions associated with a particular product or service that I offer, for example. 444 00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:30,540 And I think it's actually the value comes for from identifying those opportunities in your in your supply chain to to take 445 00:47:30,540 --> 00:47:38,790 action and to enable real change to happen across the boundaries within different industries and across different industries. 446 00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:43,890 So I think it's not a question of should there be scope three reporting or not. 447 00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:49,530 I think it's about what what the purpose is of actually kind of coming to this. 448 00:47:49,530 --> 00:47:56,370 Yes. Some sort of understanding of the overall impact and measuring that in some way. 449 00:47:56,370 --> 00:48:00,150 But the process behind us and to me is even even more important. 450 00:48:00,150 --> 00:48:10,810 And to be able to identify the types of opportunities that we've been that we've been talking about as part of our sessions so far. 451 00:48:10,810 --> 00:48:17,500 OK, so the third strand of this kind of this definition of net zero, which is probably the last one, 452 00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:22,960 will do a lot and then try and squeeze in a couple of other different questions is actually from from Miles. 453 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:30,940 Thank you, Miles. He says, of course, I introduced this talk by saying we need a world of net zero emissions and hence a stable climate. 454 00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:38,110 But of course, notoriously, the way that we tend to measure emissions of greenhouse gases doesn't exactly measure that. 455 00:48:38,110 --> 00:48:41,830 So just to unpack this and forgive me if I get this wrong, Miles, 456 00:48:41,830 --> 00:48:47,230 in terms of what you're trying to ask here, but emissions of methane, for instance, are much shorter lived. 457 00:48:47,230 --> 00:48:54,460 They don't have the same permanent effect on climate as CO2. But the way that we stack these up into a single total CO2 equivalent of 458 00:48:54,460 --> 00:48:58,840 emissions doesn't necessarily represent that differential impact on temperature. 459 00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:59,800 So, of course, 460 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:09,040 the the exact mix of greenhouse gases that you can get to net zero CO2 equivalent basis can actually lead to different results in global temperatures, 461 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,750 depending on the specific mix of greenhouse gases. So I like this question. 462 00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:26,480 He says, should we care to businesses and organisations mind about this or when should they care, Tom, or do you have a view on that? 463 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,510 So, Miles, I have a feeling that I do think they should care, 464 00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:38,270 they you the having accuracy and knowing what the actual effect of what you do on climate change and global warming will be is, 465 00:49:38,270 --> 00:49:43,160 I think, kind of now essential for an evidence based approach to the topic. 466 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:49,940 So it should be a situation in which the gases are going to be in the atmosphere for periods of time and taking action quite plainly. 467 00:49:49,940 --> 00:49:56,960 I think practically the reason why we haven't seen more attention to that is that, 468 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:03,780 you know, for many, many businesses, the short term efforts must be on decarbonisation. 469 00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:10,850 Nothing like that is exceptions. But in decarbonisation, such an overarching imperative for industrialisation, 470 00:50:10,850 --> 00:50:17,630 this question gets lured by the huge priority of focussing on getting the fossil fuels out of the deluging. 471 00:50:17,630 --> 00:50:22,130 So I think that's the practical reason why I haven't yet seen more refined approaches. 472 00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:27,890 But I think it's interesting to see how as enemies begin to approximate and reach Nizza, 473 00:50:27,890 --> 00:50:34,620 how they're going to grapple with this topic is going to be part of the. Did you want to add anything to. 474 00:50:34,620 --> 00:50:46,050 I mean, I think the only thing that I would add is I think we need to to be also tracking the and the changes over time, as Tom mentioned, 475 00:50:46,050 --> 00:50:53,700 as companies and other entities get closer to reaching the goals that they set, 476 00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:59,570 because I think this of this question is going to become more important over time. 477 00:50:59,570 --> 00:51:07,080 And I think it just speaks to the need for us to to really understand these changes. 478 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:11,070 And these are long processes that many different organisations are putting into place. 479 00:51:11,070 --> 00:51:16,380 And we don't really understand enough about actually how to sustain commitments, 480 00:51:16,380 --> 00:51:20,220 how our how our understanding of definitions are going to change over time, 481 00:51:20,220 --> 00:51:27,360 and which types of aspects of definitions like the one that Miles is pointed to and become more 482 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:35,880 important given the changes in industries and in our overall progress in meeting targets. 483 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,290 So I think there's there's a lot of I agree with with Tom. 484 00:51:40,290 --> 00:51:48,090 I think it's very important to understand the the differential impacts. 485 00:51:48,090 --> 00:51:55,410 But I think this is something that will become much more important over time and just is another reason why we probably 486 00:51:55,410 --> 00:52:03,300 need to get these five hundred students to keep tracking a lot of the progress on many aspects of the targets, 487 00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:08,800 the improvements to targets that we're seeing across different types of entities over time. 488 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:15,670 Did and for Miles to keep thinking about this from from the physical science perspective, this is interesting that to take a national example, 489 00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:20,620 of course, there are some forward thinkers who are already grappling with this because it's material to their emotions. 490 00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:26,620 So New Zealand, for instance, has a very large share of its greenhouse gas emissions coming from agricultural methane. 491 00:52:26,620 --> 00:52:33,700 And actually they've set a net zero target for their CO2, but then offsets an emissions reduction that's non-zero for agricultural methane 492 00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:37,600 and that is still potentially at least consistent with a stable climate. 493 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:43,520 So clearly, some more thinking still to be done, that scope, scope for further improvement. 494 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:48,370 A specific question for you, Tom, based on the study results that you presented. 495 00:52:48,370 --> 00:52:52,310 So Peter Archduchess asks about about the data that was used. 496 00:52:52,310 --> 00:52:59,770 You mentioned the fact that it's based on publicly available data. And so there's a risk of cost associated with the quality of that data. 497 00:52:59,770 --> 00:53:03,220 What in or isn't in there so is or isn't in there. Sorry. 498 00:53:03,220 --> 00:53:11,640 So, Peter, specifically, how is supranational emissions dealt with, for instance, from shipping, air travel and extractive mining? 499 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:17,230 And do you worry that the basis of the data collection means there are some important gaps? 500 00:53:17,230 --> 00:53:21,460 Definitely the publicly available information is limited and I can give us. 501 00:53:21,460 --> 00:53:30,400 But it's it useful for us on the specific question of external aviation and shipping, et cetera. 502 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,090 We do record by other countries are including those aspects. 503 00:53:34,090 --> 00:53:47,210 And there certainly it's not, but it's definitely a gap that's made by a lot more. 504 00:53:47,210 --> 00:53:53,270 Thank you. I'm going to ask quite a big question next, but it's a highly rated one and it's a good question. 505 00:53:53,270 --> 00:54:01,200 So let's see how we do with the remaining minutes we got left. And hopefully I've got time to squeeze another one, but standeth tremendous asks. 506 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:07,850 This is a planetary scale problem, so it demands structural solutions. But of course, at the local level, she argues, 507 00:54:07,850 --> 00:54:14,600 at least it's easier to energise people about lifestyle changes that often don't add up to the large scale structural changes we need. 508 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:19,040 So how do we promote this confluence of individual and government coming together? 509 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,560 And I'd also like you and businesses as well to focus on sort of tackling the big strategic problems. 510 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:29,030 I guess that's something that both of you have spent your careers researching, 511 00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:32,790 but from from the sort of government institutional angle and from the corporate angle. 512 00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:36,950 So I'd love to hear both your views on that. What was needed for strategic alignment? 513 00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:43,340 Maybe if I can ask you to go first, if that's not putting you on the spot too much. 514 00:54:43,340 --> 00:54:52,520 I just just kind of think through my ideas on the spot, I guess, because it is a it is a really big question and a really good question. 515 00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:59,840 And I think this is going to be biased and given the type of research that I that I do and that I'm interested in. 516 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,830 But I do think that there is a role for business, 517 00:55:03,830 --> 00:55:13,400 particularly at this intersection between changes that we need to see at an individual level and at an institutional level. 518 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:23,570 And I think there is there's a much bigger need to to focus on positive visions for the future. 519 00:55:23,570 --> 00:55:31,460 And I think that can help to to overcome this disconnect between small individual actions. 520 00:55:31,460 --> 00:55:36,000 I'm adding up to the to the bigger structural changes that we need to see. 521 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:45,710 And I think there are there are more and more companies in different industries really trying to rethink what it is that people actually want. 522 00:55:45,710 --> 00:55:55,190 And I think we need to see much more efforts to to to ask kind of more difficult questions about, well, what do we really want to see in our cities? 523 00:55:55,190 --> 00:56:00,380 What types of services do we do we want? What types of how do we actually want to work? 524 00:56:00,380 --> 00:56:10,850 I think conversations right now around kind of the future of work have have really changed because of our experience in the last year. 525 00:56:10,850 --> 00:56:18,380 And I think they give us that opportunity to to to step back and ask much bigger questions than we have done before. 526 00:56:18,380 --> 00:56:28,310 I think before the pandemic, we were talking about structurally changing work as some sort of like far off and future that might use 527 00:56:28,310 --> 00:56:35,810 the future thing that might happen to fundamentally change the impact of of our cities on climate, 528 00:56:35,810 --> 00:56:42,260 for example. And now we're we're seeing a lot of those structural changes actually playing out. 529 00:56:42,260 --> 00:56:55,850 So I think that the there is a there's a lot of opportunity to to to to shape bigger questions in kind of local spaces 530 00:56:55,850 --> 00:57:08,330 using this the power of our local environments that will connect to to structural changes across different cities. 531 00:57:08,330 --> 00:57:16,280 And I see a big role for for for companies getting involved at both local and local levels and to be able to do that. 532 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:23,910 So it really it requires connexions at a local level as well as at a global level. 533 00:57:23,910 --> 00:57:31,040 It requires companies to and to know what's going on in the local environments that they're connected to, 534 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:38,390 for example, and also to be aware of different national policies and global movements. 535 00:57:38,390 --> 00:57:48,230 So it's I mean, it's a it's a very challenging time for for people in in different organisations to to be 536 00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:53,660 able to kind of think more systemically and to ask these really big challenging questions. 537 00:57:53,660 --> 00:58:05,940 So, yeah, I think I'll I'll stop there and see what Tom has to add to to quite a challenging but very good question to finish this off on. 538 00:58:05,940 --> 00:58:12,930 It's a great question, I think, you know, the Paris agreement and the history of its implementation since 2013, 539 00:58:12,930 --> 00:58:19,110 I think that's a really interesting insight that my world is what the scientist as a journalist, relations scholar is quite different. 540 00:58:19,110 --> 00:58:22,920 And I we think about solving global challenges, actually suing Paris. 541 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:32,520 Give us a very ambitious goal of achieving net zero soon out the century, ideally by 2050, to keep the one point five degree target rich. 542 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,920 That was very much a kind of surprise in December 2015. 543 00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:45,030 Me, it wasn't necessarily going to be in there. It was only the result of hard work by activists and the vulnerable countries. 544 00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:52,650 Then we saw this amazing take. You take it up with that idea by cities, by businesses, by of countries in the following year. 545 00:58:52,650 --> 00:59:00,570 That was unexpected, I think, to go as far as it has now reached the point where actually maybe it's over subscribed and we 546 00:59:00,570 --> 00:59:05,970 have people diluting the concept in some ways by taking on less meaningful versions of it. 547 00:59:05,970 --> 00:59:09,330 And that's not a new notion of sort of activism, 548 00:59:09,330 --> 00:59:16,530 scientific investigation and ultimately strands of orchestration and governance regulation that will give us further clarity there. 549 00:59:16,530 --> 00:59:21,540 So the interaction between these particular processes and the way we looked on the ground 550 00:59:21,540 --> 00:59:28,740 using science to take form in the operation of of all sorts of different countries, 551 00:59:28,740 --> 00:59:34,560 cities, businesses, investors, etc., can we now keep pushing it up forward in the right direction? 552 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,280 I think we can and we are, but have a lot more work to do. 553 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:44,140 So it's kind of systems change. We're seeing of interaction between different kinds of different places. 554 00:59:44,140 --> 00:59:48,870 So different sectors, different levels of policymaking is to be fascinating. 555 00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:56,210 I think this is exactly what we need to make work better and faster to get ready to go. 556 00:59:56,210 --> 01:00:03,650 Right, so the power of positive vision, the need for collaboration, we've come a long way, but there's a lot further to go. 557 01:00:03,650 --> 01:00:09,440 Sadly, we're out of time there, but thank you very much for that effort and thank you for joining us. 558 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:14,210 And thank you all of you watching today for joining us and for your questions. 559 01:00:14,210 --> 01:00:14,960 Next Monday, 560 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:23,270 we have the final instalment of the series when Professor Ross Rikabi and Sophie Gill will be talking about the role of oceans in net zero. 561 01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:29,660 And sadly, I won't be joining you for that one. But the good news is you'll have you'll be in the much more capable hands of Miles. 562 01:00:29,660 --> 01:00:32,840 Professor Miles Allen, this chair. So do sign up for that one. 563 01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:40,100 You can register by clicking on the green button at the bottom of your screen if you're on Chromecast or through the Oxford mathematical website. 564 01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:46,760 It's been a pleasure hosting these conversations, seeing the enthusiasm of all those tuning in and fielding your great questions. 565 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,800 I hope before too long we'll be able to see many of you in person at net zero events. 566 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,295 And in the meantime, have a very good week.