1 00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:13,870 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] To clear. Pandemic, as we saw, has impact on the economic development of the world. 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,290 Does it mean that you'll react the same way? But 911 is. 3 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,530 We all have seen it, you know, so it's synchronised at the moment. 4 00:00:20,770 --> 00:00:27,280 Covid, but they might differ. The shocks that were considered real shocks internal for the organisation. 5 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:35,630 Then what might be the global shocks. Welcome to Global Shots, the podcast of the Oxford Martin programme on changing global borders. 6 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,680 My name is John Icahn and I'm a research fellow in international relations. 7 00:00:40,250 --> 00:00:44,780 And in this podcast we're going to explore how international organisations deal with global shocks. 8 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:51,230 Global shocks are all around us, from humanitarian emergencies to war, financial crises to pandemics. 9 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:57,140 So how can international organisations respond to them, adapt to them and survive such turbulent times? 10 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:05,360 To find out, we are entering the conversation with leading figures from these organisations to find out how they're affected by crisis and turbulence, 11 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,500 what lessons they draw from the past and what future prospects they have. 12 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:29,370 Today, we'll take a closer look at the organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development short OECD. 13 00:01:30,330 --> 00:01:37,620 The OCD was founded in 1961 as a successor organisation to the organisation for European Economic Cooperation, 14 00:01:38,070 --> 00:01:43,620 which had since 1948 administered Marshall Plan aid for European post-war recovery. 15 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,450 Throughout the Cold War, the OECD's mission evolved to promote economic growth and trade. 16 00:01:50,230 --> 00:01:57,790 Headquartered in Paris, the OECD today has 38 member countries and accounts for 41.1% of global GDP. 17 00:01:58,740 --> 00:02:05,970 Initially comprised of European nations, the organisation expanded to include countries from North America, Asia and the Pacific region. 18 00:02:06,630 --> 00:02:12,870 Though most members are high income countries, leading some to refer to the OECD as a club of rich nations. 19 00:02:13,710 --> 00:02:19,650 I spoke to the OECD's former deputy secretary general, Murray giving Jemmy Murray given. 20 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,520 Amy was the Prime Minister of Finland from 2010 to 2011, 21 00:02:23,940 --> 00:02:31,260 before which she served her country as Minister for Foreign Trade and Development and as Minister for European Affairs, among other posts. 22 00:02:31,650 --> 00:02:38,640 In 2014, she joined the OECD, where she was responsible for areas including efficient and effective governance, 23 00:02:38,850 --> 00:02:41,820 territorial development and trade and agriculture. 24 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:50,490 We discussed her experience working for the OECD, what the OECD does exactly, and how the OECD has dealt with different periods of turbulence. 25 00:03:14,890 --> 00:03:20,260 Just to begin our interview. Maybe tell us in your own words why thinking about global shocks matters. 26 00:03:20,530 --> 00:03:28,450 Yes, I'm marketing Amy from Finland. And for the last five years, I have been working as the managing director of the Finnish Commerce Federation. 27 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:35,470 And before this position, I worked a bit more than four years as the deputy Secretary general of the OECD, 28 00:03:35,830 --> 00:03:43,390 and I oversaw the directorates of Public Governance, Trade and Agriculture and Local and Regional governments and SMEs. 29 00:03:43,450 --> 00:03:51,880 And before that, I hold various positions in the Finnish government, and I was Prime Minister of Finland from 2010 to 2011. 30 00:03:52,090 --> 00:03:56,740 And I was elected to the Finnish Parliament for the first time in 1995. 31 00:03:57,190 --> 00:04:02,470 And when it comes to the question of years, why thinking about global shocks matters. 32 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:06,640 Yes, I think the answer is obvious. Of course they matter. 33 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:16,149 And nowadays it's a bit difficult to find any shocks which are not global because the world is very interconnected when it comes to economies, 34 00:04:16,150 --> 00:04:23,979 societies and systems. The globalisation has increased the interconnectedness so shocks very seldom stay in one 35 00:04:23,980 --> 00:04:30,130 country and they can have very cascading effects impacting other regions and nations. 36 00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:34,570 So whatever shock we are talking about, economic crises, pandemics, 37 00:04:34,570 --> 00:04:40,710 natural disasters or geopolitical events and shocks are very multidimensional and complex. 38 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,550 They can have environmental, economic, social and political consequences. 39 00:04:45,790 --> 00:04:54,550 When it comes to the reasons why I think global shocks matter, another one is that every governments have to be prepared. 40 00:04:54,790 --> 00:04:58,780 Anticipating and preparing for global shocks is crucial. 41 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,910 Governments have really the responsibility to manage complex crises and shocks. 42 00:05:04,090 --> 00:05:11,560 So risk management is needed not only from governments, but also other organisations and and companies. 43 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:17,470 And it's utmost important to in order to manage risks, to work together. 44 00:05:17,710 --> 00:05:21,850 And there international organisations play a crucial role. 45 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:30,840 And I have seen as minister and prime minister how a country banishes and governs shocks and been involved in crisis management, 46 00:05:30,850 --> 00:05:33,970 manage risk that is everyday work for everyone. 47 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:42,160 You've got a very special perspective since you've worked as a Prime minister and at the heart of a very important international organisation, 48 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:47,920 the OECD. So you just told us that global shocks matter since they're multidimensional. 49 00:05:48,100 --> 00:05:52,780 They affect so many different parts of social and political and economic life. 50 00:05:52,810 --> 00:05:58,090 And on the other hand, the responses to global shocks need to be multi-dimensional in equal measure. 51 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:04,000 So let's zoom in on the OECD as an organisation that deals with shocks in some way or another. 52 00:06:04,030 --> 00:06:11,110 What does the OECD do exactly, and what might be its role in a world that faces global shocks? 53 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:19,509 Yes. First of all, I would like to tell something about what the OECD really is, because I'm a bit irritated about the definition, 54 00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:25,720 which I hear very often, that the OECD is a group of rich countries, and it's so much small. 55 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,650 So of course, economy and wealth plays a role. 56 00:06:29,770 --> 00:06:35,310 But in order to become a member of the OECD, you have to fulfil certain criteria. 57 00:06:35,350 --> 00:06:43,060 You have to be a stable and developed economy. You have to support open markets, free trade and investment liberalisation, 58 00:06:43,570 --> 00:06:51,340 and you should have democratic political system, respect for human rights, rule of law and good governance principles. 59 00:06:51,340 --> 00:06:58,690 And that includes, of course, having transparent and accountable institutions and independent judiciary. 60 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:06,940 And then it's important also that members implement market oriented economic policies that they promote competition, 61 00:07:06,940 --> 00:07:11,110 innovation, interpret ownership and efficient allocation of resources. 62 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:19,000 And they are expected also to align the policies and practices with OECD standards in various areas. 63 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:28,270 And in order to implement and enforce these standards and recommendations effectively, you should have legal and administrative capacity to do that. 64 00:07:28,420 --> 00:07:32,799 So that is really what the OECD is via its membership. 65 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,790 And the OCD is a think tank. It's a high level policy design, 66 00:07:36,790 --> 00:07:43,330 and it creates evidence based analysis and research in order to help governments to make better policies for better lives. 67 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:52,500 And so we help countries to to tackle the social, economic and environmental challenges, including risks and global shocks. 68 00:07:52,540 --> 00:07:58,410 And really, the aim of the OECD is to help the member countries. 69 00:07:58,420 --> 00:08:02,499 And it's not only a think tank, it's also a dual tank, 70 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:14,950 because I think that the peer review reviewing process and the way the OECD kind of produces its advice is partly also very hands on recommendations. 71 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:22,630 So all that those policy recommendations which are then produced by the OECD should be also implementable. 72 00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:31,200 And then OCD is a global standard setter and supporter of the international cooperation because more than 400 legal instruments. 73 00:08:31,210 --> 00:08:38,260 So also in the area of risk governance, OECD does a lot by helping the member countries. 74 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:46,030 What would you say, given your particular background? You studied economics, you worked as a prime minister and then you entered this organisation. 75 00:08:46,270 --> 00:08:52,600 From your point of view, what was the most challenging global shock that you had to face, that you and your colleagues had to face? 76 00:08:53,020 --> 00:08:57,460 And what would you say were its consequences for the work of the organisation of the OECD? 77 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:06,400 So definitely it was the financial crisis. Maybe a bit funny to say so, because the financial crisis happened in 2008 and 2009, 78 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:13,990 the effects and consequences of it were still felt, and they were there during my years at the OECD. 79 00:09:14,380 --> 00:09:20,970 The aftermath of the crisis really had a lasting impact on various aspects of the global economic landscape. 80 00:09:20,980 --> 00:09:28,170 And what the OSCE wanted to do was to support governments in tackling the problems they faced after the financial crisis. 81 00:09:28,210 --> 00:09:35,830 As we remember, sluggish growth, high levels of public and private debt, low interest rates, which was a totally new world for most of the countries. 82 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:44,080 Also, questions like how to balance stimulus measures with long term fiscal sustainability, how to manage euro crisis, 83 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:52,080 and and also, I think that the crisis prompted a re-evaluation of economic models and assumptions. 84 00:09:52,090 --> 00:10:01,870 There was a discussion slide on secular stagnation, the role of globalisation, the impact of technology on labour markets, inclusive growth and so on. 85 00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:08,770 So policymakers and economists, they address the underlying causes of the crisis. 86 00:10:09,070 --> 00:10:18,300 And also the consequences to that discussion at the OECD produced a lot of material research and surveys, evaluation and reviews. 87 00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:26,020 So I would say that the financial crisis affected in a profound way the work and agenda of the organisation. 88 00:10:26,410 --> 00:10:29,620 To a certain extent, you could even say that it set the agenda. 89 00:10:29,620 --> 00:10:34,350 And it's very obvious when you think about that, what the OCD does and what it does in its. 90 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:40,650 Name to the organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, and also to give some concrete examples. 91 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,950 What happened and what was created during those years? 92 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:51,400 All of the countries almost in the global sphere, not all that, but most of them are struggling with balancing their budgets. 93 00:10:51,460 --> 00:10:58,800 The slow growth challenges in the finance sector. So it was necessary for them to find more funding for the budget. 94 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,030 So efforts to kerb tax evasion gained momentum. 95 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:13,380 And many remember the G20 leaders meeting in 2009, which stated that the era of banking secrecy is over. 96 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:23,100 So the Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes was established, and now the forum has more than 170 members, 97 00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:32,100 and it has achieved massive progress in implementing the international tax transparency and exchange of information standards. 98 00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:38,550 And also part of that purpose, so-called BEPs project, which started as the year 2013. 99 00:11:38,940 --> 00:11:48,090 It was an always CD G20 project to set up an international framework to combat tax avoidance by multinational enterprises. 100 00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:56,159 So the financial crisis really elevated the cooperation of economic powers in meetings of the G20 countries. 101 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:01,110 And for those meetings, the G20 meetings, they always had prepared reports, 102 00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:09,060 together with WTO and Unctad and similar collaborations we also undertaking with other organisations. 103 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:14,100 But then I want to mention also and other a bit more limited crisis. 104 00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:19,290 And it was the immigrant and refugee crisis in 2015, 2016, 105 00:12:19,290 --> 00:12:27,029 when the number of migrants and refugees seeking asylum surged in Europe and created a humanitarian crisis. 106 00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:33,780 And it raised questions about immigration and integration, also sparked political debates on a global scale. 107 00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:37,830 And the OECD had worked in this policy area for decades. 108 00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:43,379 So the organisation's help was asked when it comes to special integration policies, 109 00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:51,510 how to manage such a big flow of migrants and refugees and the OCD during those 110 00:12:51,510 --> 00:12:56,280 years and after that undertook country reviews and also make recommendations, 111 00:12:56,550 --> 00:13:04,680 which is kind of a normal procedure and what it had done earlier to the several countries, but also fast track reviews where they produced. 112 00:13:04,860 --> 00:13:14,069 But we also have to remember that the OCD is not a rapid response force when it comes to its reviews and in-depth analysis, 113 00:13:14,070 --> 00:13:17,350 and it always takes some time to produce those. 114 00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:25,199 But the good thing is that there is already a lot of work done on which you can base your support to to governments. 115 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:31,800 And also when you think about the the recommendations and then the actual implementation work, 116 00:13:31,830 --> 00:13:36,210 which will be then done by the governments to which advice is given. 117 00:13:36,270 --> 00:13:44,490 That takes also time. If I may just take you up on that last point on the OECD not being a rapid response force. 118 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:51,430 I think that's very interesting. If we take your insider perspective, what does it actually look like for the OECD to respond to a global shock, 119 00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:54,490 like the financial crisis, like the refugee crisis? 120 00:13:54,640 --> 00:14:00,820 Is it a process of monitoring, observing and then slowly analysing what the situation actually is, 121 00:14:00,820 --> 00:14:04,930 what the priorities need to be for the organisation? What are the steps that are being followed? 122 00:14:04,930 --> 00:14:11,610 And I mean, if you could just give us a bit of a concrete example of how the organisation faces the global shock at hand, 123 00:14:11,620 --> 00:14:15,220 what happens within the organisation once the shock hits, as it were? 124 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,309 Yes, of course, much depends on that. Is there already work done in that area? 125 00:14:21,310 --> 00:14:29,320 So to certain extent, yes. The OECD can be the rapid response force because maybe there are already recommendations 126 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:35,799 set which can be used by the government which have been hit by the the crisis. 127 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:42,310 But then if you really need kind of in-depth analysis of, of the situation, then you need some time. 128 00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:48,340 But that is also based on the work earlier done and it depended on that. 129 00:14:48,490 --> 00:14:56,020 Was it so that it was so a government who asked for the support, what kind of work we be able to offer. 130 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:03,100 Sometimes they were requests to kind of produce a report very quickly, and that was possible then when, 131 00:15:03,340 --> 00:15:10,180 as was always almost the case, because the government knew that we had done something in this area. 132 00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:17,980 So they relied on that by knowing that we have some previous work recommendations concerning the current situation. 133 00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:52,860 Right. So at the Oxford Martin programme on Changing Global Orders, we're interested in historical lessons and the past, 134 00:15:52,860 --> 00:15:57,030 and I'm curious to hear from your point of view in this process that you just described 135 00:15:57,030 --> 00:16:02,220 of how the OECD analyses and contextualises particular challenges that occur. 136 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,560 Do historical analogies play any role? 137 00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:13,020 Does it matter to the OECD to put a particular governance problem into longer term perspective, or is that more of a background aspect to its work? 138 00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:23,720 Yes, of course, because in many policy areas, the OECD has decades of experience in conducting surveys, research and analysis on on various crises. 139 00:16:23,730 --> 00:16:30,240 So it's clear that you have learned from from past and you can use those lessons. 140 00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:36,840 So I think that historical analogies really help recognise similarities in their 141 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,130 underlying causes and responses and consequences of past and present situation, 142 00:16:41,730 --> 00:16:46,500 and helps identifying lessons learned from past experiences. 143 00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:53,639 But of course, it's essential to approach historical analysis with caution because its historical 144 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,500 context is unique and direct comparisons may not always be appropriate. 145 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,530 It really depends on the crisis which we are handling. 146 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:08,340 If you think back to the financial crisis and the migrant crisis, was there a discussion of have we seen this before? 147 00:17:08,370 --> 00:17:12,719 Does this bear any resemblances to past crises that the OECD faces? 148 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,350 Did that kind of conversation happen? Yes, definitely. 149 00:17:16,350 --> 00:17:26,190 In both crises. Our experts or economists were thinking about the past crisis to is there any analogies that help we see this earlier, 150 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,270 and especially when it comes to migration crisis, 151 00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:38,850 that was more like a crisis where you can really benefit from earlier experiences because they are a bit more like them, 152 00:17:39,150 --> 00:17:43,980 or they have more similarities than the financial crisis had this earlier crisis. 153 00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:51,000 There is, of course, a lot of debate as to what actually a crisis is, what counts as a crisis, when something becomes a crisis, 154 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:57,790 when it becomes a sort of emergency that an organisation like the OECD needs to respond to, and why something is a crisis and to whom. 155 00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:05,500 So I'm curious to hear how the OECD actually goes about determining what counts as a sort of urgent enough crisis to respond to. 156 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,560 How does that matter to the OECD's work? 157 00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:15,420 Yeah, I think that the first question which was asked at the OECD versus is this a crisis where our expertise is needed? 158 00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:22,229 Can we offer something to the governments or regional governments of the countries which had been hit by the crisis? 159 00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:26,460 And is it something where we have knowledge and high level expertise? 160 00:18:26,490 --> 00:18:29,850 And the answer was obvious. It definitely was. 161 00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:38,129 The OECD is a piece of cake, and I think that it's the interaction between Secretary General's office and the whole Secretariat, 162 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:42,330 as well as the council with its permanent representatives. 163 00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:46,739 They all played a role defining the answer and also the committees. 164 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:55,950 And of course, in the member countries, they had a say when analysing that is is something where we could contribute and by which way. 165 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,950 And sometimes really it was so that the particular government asked for help, 166 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,870 that they wanted us to produce a survey and wanted us to give some advice. 167 00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:13,040 And sometimes we also, as an organisation, when we knew that we have something to offer, 168 00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:20,850 we offered to governments that we could maybe undertake a review on this policy area, you know, to to help you. 169 00:19:21,090 --> 00:19:26,130 But then when and if the answer was yes, definitely. This is something where we should be active. 170 00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:33,600 Then we had a look if there is work already done and what kind of new material is then needed. 171 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:37,140 Let's take it as an example. The migrant crisis. Yeah. 172 00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:40,920 Was the perception one of threats or if an opportunity or was it a bit of both? 173 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,650 It was really a bit of both. 174 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:51,390 Many of the member countries of the OECD were seen to be in a, in a certain danger in a way that how to handle the situation. 175 00:19:51,720 --> 00:20:01,890 So it really was so that the OECD wanted to offer its, its support, uh, in order to stabilise the situation. 176 00:20:02,190 --> 00:20:09,360 But also there were also opportunities for the organisation to develop its work to a new level. 177 00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:11,910 So right at the beginning of the conversation, 178 00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:20,820 you mentioned how global shocks connect different policy domains and spread across different areas of social, economic, political life. 179 00:20:20,970 --> 00:20:23,940 And of course, in recent months, over the past year, 180 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:30,660 maybe poly crisis has been the kind of big buzzword that policymakers and and public commentators have been talking about, 181 00:20:30,690 --> 00:20:36,480 trying to capture how every crisis is always connected to other crises, actually, and other issue areas. 182 00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:39,419 And of course, I can imagine, from your point of view as an economist, 183 00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:45,239 that is a very clear aspect to you that an economic crisis is going to have social consequences. 184 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:53,150 It's going to have. Political consequences. Does this term poly crisis make sense from the Euro OECD point of view? 185 00:20:53,780 --> 00:21:05,510 Yes, definitely it does. The interconnectedness of global challenges is really so, so high that you have to find multidimensional solutions also. 186 00:21:06,170 --> 00:21:08,150 And during your time working at the OECD, 187 00:21:08,270 --> 00:21:14,839 you mentioned that the OECD at some points needed to coordinate its policies and its actions with other organisations like you mentioned, 188 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:21,660 Unctad and the WTO. Is this part of dealing with a world in which crises intersect with other crises? 189 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:28,220 Is that what's what's required for the OECD to coordinate its action with other organisations working on adjacent areas? 190 00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:31,700 Yes, I think it's essential to coordinate and cooperate, 191 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:36,730 but I would use the word cooperation more than coordination, because I think that every organisation, 192 00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:44,899 when it comes to international ones, they have their own rather well-defined roles among the international organisations. 193 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:50,660 So each of them knows what to do and where the limits where they can go. 194 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:55,340 But of course, you can always raise the question that is the number of organisations the right one. 195 00:21:55,790 --> 00:21:58,939 Are there too many that in any case international organisations, 196 00:21:58,940 --> 00:22:07,730 they cooperate and they also to a certain extent the work is coordinated well and this occurs through discussions between organisations. 197 00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:14,900 But primarily, I would say through the political decisions made by member countries and in the organisation. 198 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:23,340 So the long term agenda of each organisation is set in collaboration with the organisation's secretariat and member countries, 199 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:31,489 and this then last determines the agenda for each of them and where to go in which areas to be active, 200 00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:36,680 in which policy areas to be to be active, and in which crisis. 201 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,170 The organisation is going to be one of the problem solvers. 202 00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:46,110 Yeah. And that has said this interaction with the countries. 203 00:22:46,110 --> 00:22:54,650 So with Secretariat and, and also discussions with other organisations then kind of defined the limits of, of actions. 204 00:22:55,070 --> 00:22:58,150 We live in a world where there are many geopolitical shifts happening. 205 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,250 Who gets a seat at the table has changed dramatically. 206 00:23:01,490 --> 00:23:04,610 And so the OECD in this context I think is quite interesting. 207 00:23:04,610 --> 00:23:09,680 Its roots are geopolitical in the sense that the organisation was founded to administer the Marshall Plan, 208 00:23:09,860 --> 00:23:13,960 and at that time the Soviet Union and its satellite states rejected that. 209 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,520 But then over the over the longer run and the post-Cold War world, OECD membership has globalised in a way. 210 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:25,430 Right. So countries like Colombia, Costa Rica, Chile are just a few examples of new OECD members. 211 00:23:25,850 --> 00:23:33,710 Membership has changed a lot, and arguably that has an effect for the fundamental purpose and identity and mission of the OECD. 212 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,560 How would you say, does the OECD relate to these kinds of longer term changes, 213 00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:43,490 and how have its changes in membership affected the organisation's work? 214 00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:49,460 Yes. So you mentioned really geopolitical shifts really affected the growth of the OECD. 215 00:23:50,090 --> 00:23:53,749 And you can see it in in the composition of the OECD. 216 00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:59,840 Its membership information and bloc countries are now now, uh, that are more in the line. 217 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,210 But my years at the OECD, Latvia and Lithuania became a membership. 218 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:08,510 But there are still a couple of EU countries which are not yet there. 219 00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:12,290 And Latin American countries, as you as you mentioned. 220 00:24:12,290 --> 00:24:23,509 So and I think also what has happened and what can be seen because of these geopolitical shifts that the OSCE, this work demand has been increased. 221 00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:33,220 So there are more and more countries and partners who want to cooperate with us, and they are quite many in line and in the accession process already. 222 00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:37,340 So the always it has to become more and more global organisation. 223 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:46,550 And it's not only the members but also the OECD is cooperation with key partners with China in South Africa, India, Indonesia. 224 00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:56,390 It is something new a couple of decades ago and also with some regional economic organisation like Southeast Asia, G20, G7. 225 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:09,320 So what we see is a more wanted organisation all over the world that has also increased the OECD's importance as a global standard setter. 226 00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:14,510 So this really shows how much more important the organisation is. 227 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:22,549 Right. So you're saying that the OECD has become more important. There's an increased demand for the OECD as an actor in global governance, 228 00:25:22,550 --> 00:25:28,370 and that the OECD has also played a role or starts to play a role as a kind of global standard setter in a way. 229 00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:34,639 Exactly, yes. Would you say that given that there are geopolitical conflicts not only on the horizon, 230 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,820 but we've seen many over the last decades, we're seeing many at the moment. 231 00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:45,080 These kinds of conflicts, of course, require that somehow we we build resilience, not least through international organisations. 232 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:52,510 Would you say that the OECD can play a role in building this kind of resilience against geopolitical conflict? 233 00:25:52,750 --> 00:26:01,050 Definitely. And of course, I'm also worried about the fragmentation of global order and the geopolitical tensions which have been rising. 234 00:26:01,090 --> 00:26:08,170 But I think the OECD can really be quite a big player trying to to to solve and tackle this 235 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:15,700 challenge via getting more members who can actively seek to expand its membership as it has done. 236 00:26:16,270 --> 00:26:24,909 And then the OCD should continue to foster partnerships and collaborations with key partners with interested countries, 237 00:26:24,910 --> 00:26:28,480 regional organisation and and other stakeholders. 238 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:38,620 So the work it has been doing for decades. So already when the OECD is also continuing its work in building capacities and sharing knowledge, 239 00:26:38,830 --> 00:26:46,690 that is also important because we need more and more evidence and we need to promote the evidence base, 240 00:26:46,990 --> 00:26:55,150 which clearly shows how important for the economic growth and wealth of free trade is and how bad fragmentation is. 241 00:26:55,630 --> 00:27:02,830 We've talked about how the OECD does its work, how it responds to global shocks, what kinds of global shocks it responds to. 242 00:27:03,010 --> 00:27:08,470 We've spoken about the financial crisis as an example from your perspective and the migrant crisis as another example. 243 00:27:08,590 --> 00:27:10,030 If we think about all of this, 244 00:27:10,030 --> 00:27:19,450 what would you say going forward is the biggest challenge for the OECD as an organisation and its role in regional economic governance in the future? 245 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:23,950 I think that the biggest challenge is so the geopolitical fragmentation. 246 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:28,510 The whole city operates in a world where geopolitical fragmentation and power, 247 00:27:28,510 --> 00:27:36,969 political divides are increasingly pronounced and there are tensions between major powers and also national security and resilience, 248 00:27:36,970 --> 00:27:46,060 uh, prioritised over multilateralism, international cooperation and rules based global order nowadays in many countries. 249 00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:52,240 So there is a need for functional global rules and practices still in many area areas. 250 00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:59,200 So in that sense, I think that there's a lot of need for the work of the, uh, OECD in the long run, 251 00:27:59,230 --> 00:28:06,910 the global opinion will understand the benefits of free trade and the global or multilateral rules based system. 252 00:28:07,210 --> 00:28:15,190 So definitely, the OECD has an important place also in the future in promoting the multilateral cooperation. 253 00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:21,400 How would you say, can the OECD learn from past shocks to improve its preparedness for the future? 254 00:28:22,090 --> 00:28:26,640 I think that we should keep up the good work and continue its work. 255 00:28:26,650 --> 00:28:37,780 There's no silver bullet to change the public opinion, which to quite the extent is against multilateralism. 256 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:47,380 But when it comes to two global shocks, the OECD has done actually also a lot of work in the field of risk governance policies. 257 00:28:47,380 --> 00:28:52,420 And the OECD has definitely learnt from past experiences. 258 00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:58,989 And I think that that is kind of internalised very well in the work of, of the OECD Secretariat. 259 00:28:58,990 --> 00:29:04,389 And I would like to mention the OECD High-Level Risk Forum, which brings together policymakers, 260 00:29:04,390 --> 00:29:08,620 experts and stakeholders from member countries to discuss emerging risks, 261 00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:17,230 also share best practices and develop strategies to enhance resilience and improve risk governance at both national and international levels. 262 00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:24,640 And that forum also conducts uh research to help policymakers understand and identify critical risks. 263 00:29:24,670 --> 00:29:31,900 And then there's also the OECD recommendations on the Governance of Critical Risks, which was adopted 2014. 264 00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:33,910 And there has been also an assessment, 265 00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:41,080 reports which have been published in order to get an overview of countries progress in implementing the recommendations. 266 00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:47,530 This work done by the OECD really can help the member countries to to govern the global risks. 267 00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:53,859 And also the strategic foresight work has to be mentioned to which supports not only the OECD, 268 00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:57,910 its own resilience, but also that of the all of the member countries. 269 00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:02,360 Murray, given me, it's been a great pleasure having you today and talking to you. 270 00:30:02,380 --> 00:30:05,650 It's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. 271 00:30:08,050 --> 00:30:15,840 You. You've been listening to Global Shocks, the podcast of the Oxford Martin programme on changing global orders. 272 00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:21,510 My name is John. I'm a postdoctoral research fellow in international relations. 273 00:30:21,690 --> 00:30:29,310 And I'm the host and producer of this podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow us and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. 274 00:30:29,580 --> 00:30:35,580 Do have a look at the show notes for further reading on today's topic, as well as links to our website and social media channel. 275 00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:39,120 We'll be back again next month with another episode. 276 00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:39,870 Thank you.