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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
To clear. Pandemic, as we saw, has impact on the economic development of the world.

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Does it mean that you'll react the same way? But 911 is we all have seen it, you know, so it's synchronised at the moment.

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Covid, but they might differ. The shocks that were considered real shocks internal for the organisation.

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Then what might be the global shocks. Welcome to Global Shocks, the podcast of the Oxford Martin program on changing global borders.

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My name is John Icahn and I'm a research fellow in international relations.

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And in this podcast we're going to explore how international organisations deal with global shocks.

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Global shocks are all around us, from humanitarian emergencies to war, financial crises to pandemics.

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So how can international organisations respond to them, adapt to them and survive such turbulent times?

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To find out, we are entering the conversation with leading figures from these organisations to find out how they're affected by crisis and turbulence,

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what lessons they draw from the past and what future prospects they have.

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Today let's talk about Greenpeace.

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Greenpeace is a little different from the other international organisations that we've been discussing in this podcast so far.

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It's not an intergovernmental organisation like for example, the World Health Organisation,

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and it's a bit more like the International Committee of the Red cross, an international non-governmental organisation.

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But whereas the Red cross aims to be neutral. Greenpeace is an activist campaigning network founded in Canada in 1971.

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In its own words, Greenpeace campaigns for a green and peaceful future by holding governments and corporations accountable.

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The network is composed of national and regional offices across the globe,

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as well as the coordinating office of Greenpeace International in Amsterdam in the Netherlands, known for highly visible direct actions.

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Greenpeace has generated awareness for environmental issues and climate change, but also attracted controversy and even legal action over its tactics.

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I spoke to the former head of Greenpeace International, Doctor Kumi Naidoo.

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Kumi Naidoo was the organisation's international executive director from 2009 to 2015,

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and then the secretary general of Amnesty International from 2018 to 2019.

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Coming on, you grew up in Durban in South Africa, where as a teenager he organised school boycotts against the apartheid regime.

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He went into exile in England in the 1980s, where he earned a doctorate in political sociology as a Rhodes Scholar at the University of Oxford.

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He returned to South Africa in 1990 after Nelson Mandela's release from prison,

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where he made key contributions to the legalisation of the African National Congress.

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Currently, he is a pain distinguished lecturer at Stanford University.

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I spoke to him about his life as an activist, his experience at Greenpeace, and the past and future of climate activism in a turbulent world.

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Welcome to global shocks, Kumi. What did you introduce yourself? And tell us a little bit about your background as an activist.

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Absolutely. So my name is Kumi Naidoo. I am currently a visiting lecturer for a year at Stanford University.

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I am also advisor to the Community Arts Network and a founding board member of the Ticketek Foundation for the Promotion of Activism.

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The foundation was set up a year ago, after the passing of very popular rap and hip hop artists.

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Who was my son. And when I asked the question, why is activism failing or not succeeding to win on the scale that it needs to?

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The main reason I landed on is that we have a serious communications deficit that we are not able to communicate to people clearly enough,

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accessibly enough, and urgently enough. Because a lot of if you take climate activism,

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a lot of our approaches is narratives that are aimed at the brain and the head, and we ignore the heart and the gut.

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Right. And if we look at the emerging fascists around the world,

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from Donald Trump to Steve Bannon to Bolsonaro and others, Orban, they are not concerned about the head.

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They are not interested in facts. Because for us in the climate justice movement, we have tried to advance our struggles by using science policies,

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rational arguments, proposals around specific interventions and so on.

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But the language that we use, the framing of it, and so on, is way above the ability for most people to enter the conversation,

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including people who might have university education and so on.

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Because if you're not a specialist in climate, then you struggle to get in.

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One of the solutions to the problem is I looked back at my own childhood activism, you know,

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during apartheid, in a country where the majority of our people were consciously deprived of education.

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Uh, one of the most powerful statements of apartheid policy was actually about education, the founder of the apartheid ideology.

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And the foot said blacks should never be shown the greener pastures of education.

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They should know that this station in life is to be used upward in droves of water.

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And so when I look at how did we mobilise, how did we mobilise in a context with people couldn't read and write.

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And actually the answer is so simple.

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It was through song, through dance, through theatre, through a range of cultural set of expressions that connected with peoples.

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So that is why a lot of my work right now is focussed on how do we break through the communications hurdles,

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and how do we actually draw on the power of arts and culture.

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Let me just conclude by saying that I am not suggesting that if we harness the full power of arts and culture

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for social change on its own will deliver us the salvation from the climate crisis and its intersecting crises.

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However, I would safely say right now that without harnessing the power of arts and culture,

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we almost guaranteed not to have a chance to break through the communications hurdles that we have.

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What really led you from from your sort of earliest involvement in activism all the way to an organ,

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a big organisation like Greenpeace, when Greenpeace, you know, folks had come to me for this position.

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In fact, there's a funny story about it when when they called me,

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I was in the middle of the hunger strike to put pressure on the South African government to act on the worsening situation in Zimbabwe.

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Part of it was this strike that Archbishop Desmond Tutu had called for, and I was the first person that anchored it for 21 days and all of that.

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And in the middle of it, I got a call from Greenpeace, uh, sort of saying, would you be interested to be a candidate?

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And I said to them, you know, thanks very much.

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Deeply honoured, but the timing is really bad.

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And my daughter, uh, who I spoke to a few days later, said that she had seen me on a television interview.

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Interested? Dead. Why are you. So why are you still doing interviews and so on?

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Aren't you supposed to be conserving your energy? And I said, no, no, you know, I, I made an exception.

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Uh, the only two people I spoke to with these BBC people and, and this folks from Greenpeace who called and she said, what did you tell them?

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And I said, no, I told them, bad timing. You know, I can't make a decision like that.

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And she said to me, you know, that I won't talk to you if you don't seriously consider this when you finish your stupid hunger strike,

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because, you know, Greenpeace is addressing one of the most critical issues of our time.

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But when I spoke to the Greenpeace board and so on, it became clear that the reason they were keen to have somebody like me.

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Was the recognised that the organisation couldn't continue as it was,

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which is having a international claim by calling themselves Greenpeace International,

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when in fact there was not a equal balancing of power between the Global South and the global North.

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And it's important to recognise that when we, talking about international organisations and their role in the world,

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is that actually there are very few truly international organisations.

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We use the term international very loosely, and I can tell you an anecdote to bring this point to life.

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The Secretary-General of amnesty, while I was the head of Greenpeace, was a guy called Salil Shetty,

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and he brought his senior management team to meet with my senior management team at Greenpeace.

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You know, about six months or so after I started.

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And then he said, you know, Kumi, I've come to realise why all the organisations we know,

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whether it's Greenpeace International, at Amnesty International,

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Save the Children International, Oxfam International and so on, is that we use the term international to mask out an international.

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We actually are. So the word international has been abused for far too long.

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And so when I was approached both by Greenpeace and Amnesty,

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it was very much part of how does the organisation become as global as the challenges that it seeks to address,

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and how does it ensure that it looks like how the world looks like now?

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The difficulty we have is that international organisations in the governmental space G20, G8, UN and so on,

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they don't have a fundamentally different analysis from the crises that we find ourselves in.

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Right? Because, for example, as early as 1997, after the Asian financial crisis, the president of the world Bank, Bill Clinton, was president,

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then secretary general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, and many others said the world needs a new international financial architecture.

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We would agree with that. But then once some Band-Aids were put on the Asian financial crisis in 1997,

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which obviously proliferated beyond to Argentina, Russia and so on, as we saw after the 2008 2009 global financial crisis.

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And as we are seeing now after Covid, right,

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all of these crises have shown how bad our current systems are in terms of being able to take

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care of the majority of people in our societies within the global South or in the global North.

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So what we would have expected, say, after the global financial crisis in 2009,

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was that there would be an approach of system innovation, system transformation, system redesign.

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But what we got and as we now having with Covid post-Covid is all you get is system recovery, system maintenance and system protection.

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The other important thing to note about the failure of the international system at the moment is

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the failure to embrace a wisdom from the feminist movement that was given to us decades ago,

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when we were urged to embrace the power of intersectionality, understanding that, you know,

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environment doesn't exist in a silo development and poverty doesn't exist in a silo.

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Human rights doesn't exist in silos.

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But both on the civil society side that, you know, Greenpeace and WWF, friends of the Earth focussed on environment,

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amnesty, Human Rights Watch on Human Rights and Oxfam and Save the Children and so on on poverty.

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But on the governmental side, you have exactly the same thing.

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Greenpeace also stands out as a civil society organisation that is committed to direct action to civil disobedience.

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And that's, of course, included not shying away from confronting powerful multinational corporations responsible for major environmental harm.

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2012 for example, you occupy the Gazprom oil platform in the Arctic as part of a Greenpeace campaign.

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In this kind of world marked by turbulence, do we need more civil disobedience?

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So, uh, firstly, one of my objections of joining Greenpeace.

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I had spent ten years working internationally before that.

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If history teaches us anything when humanity is facing terrible injustice or a terrible challenge,

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those struggles only move forward when decent women and men stood up and said, enough is enough and no more.

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We prepared to put our lives on the line, prepared to go to prison if necessary.

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We are prepared to make sacrifices necessary and by taking action that is peaceful, but which actually breaks unjust laws.

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Right? And I would say laws that protect the fossil fuel industry, given that we know that the fossil fuel industry is dabbling in a poison.

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Called carbon dioxide emissions, which is killing the future of our children and their children.

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If we look at the extreme imbalance of power.

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Let me give you a practical example. So you, as the head of Greenpeace, uh, we were engaged in a campaign around shell, right.

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To encourage it not to go into the Arctic, for example.

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Now, the Arctic is actually one of the front lines of the environmental challenges that we face at the moment.

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The Arctic is telling us clearly we are in deep trouble.

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The incident you talk about when I occupied a gas boil rig in 2012, in the bottom sea.

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At that time there was a clear recognition, but the science there was very few governments that was still questioning the reality of climate change.

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But what we saw is, yes, you can't blame people who work in the fossil fuel industry,

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you know, for being in the dirty energy industry that's driving us to destruction,

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because they've been told that they are providing an important national service by generating energy.

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But none of those workers particularly say, oh, I only want to generate dirty energy.

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Please let me generate dirty energy. They want to generate energy so they would be happy to do it through cleaner means.

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It doesn't impact the children's futures. Now the fossil fuel industry.

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We're head of the International Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

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The IPCC, in terms of their own scientists, told them much earlier that burning of fossil fuels is going to create the problem.

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What they opted to do was to to bury their own scientific findings in terms of public discourse, but they changed their practice.

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So, for example, when rigs were being put in the sea, right,

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they took into account sea level rise as a result of climate change, and they put the rigs higher.

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But in the public, those spending hundreds of millions of dollars saying fossil fuels is absolutely fine.

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And so when you look at the imbalance of power between Shell and Greenpeace, for example,

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Greenpeace entire global budget of close to €400 million is not even one tenth of the advertising budget of one fossil fuel companies like shell.

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And so the power of civil disobedience, you know, which we learned from Mahatma Gandhi, from Martin Luther King, from Nelson Mandela,

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from Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, you know, many, many people in history around the world is as relevant today as it's ever been.

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Because when power does not shift, you have to shift power.

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The other purpose of why civil disobedience is important is that some of these crimes, environmental crimes,

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are happening far away from the visibility of the vast majority of people on the planet.

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Whether it's the slavery practices we have seen in the Amazon,

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whether it's the murders of nuns and others who are working to change things around what we've seen in the Amazon.

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Then if you take the Arctic or the Antarctic, they are so remote from where the majority of people live, it seems so far from the reality.

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But as I like to remind people, you know, people say, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

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Sadly, what happens in the Arctic does not stay in the Arctic.

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Its impact is global, but so so therefore civil disobedience is also about bearing witness to injustice in places where it's hidden from people.

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Now, nobody relishes the idea of going to prison or putting your life at risk when you, you know,

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occupy a oil rig where potentially Russian agents could be firing at you has happened the year after,

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in 2013, that the Greenpeace activists were thrown in prison in Murmansk for doing exactly the same protest that we did.

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But where we are right now as humanity,

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it's important to understand that civil disobedience is one important and powerful tool in the toolbox of social change.

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And like any tool, if you don't use it strategically, with good timing, with sensitivity and so on, it can actually backfire really badly.

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Civil disobedience is very contextual. What I mean by that is what works well in one context might not work well in another context.

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So let me give you an example. I hope many of your listeners will know what mooning is, but if they don't, let me just up a definition.

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So if 20 people want to make a sign, say, stop climate change, but they have to into a venue where they kind of carrying placards and so on.

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What has happened sometimes is people will paint on each of their bum cheeks 1 or 2 letters,

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and at a given point they all pull their pants down and it'll say, act now to stop climate change, for example.

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Now, that might work well in London or New York or San Francisco.

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It might not work so well in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia or Egypt, right?

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So it doesn't mean that it was bad. And it becomes more complicated in the global environmental space because nothing stays solely within one country.

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And that was often a challenge for Greenpeace because like, for example,

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whenever there was atrocities committed by the Israeli state against the Palestinian people and when when those were happening,

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you would have a lot of Greenpeace wanting to take action and take a position, and then others would be very hesitant about it.

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And those that were hesitant would not even allow all those individual countries where it was easier to do,

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or it was appropriate to do to to offer that solidarity to the Palestinian people because they would say,

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well, it will still reflect in our market because when you do social media and so on, people will still say, hey, that's Greenpeace who did that.

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And in our country that will play bad. So this is quite a challenging thing to actually manage.

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And let me give you another example.

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When Extinction Rebellion, who I fully support, but for example, when they choose to block tube stations by public transport,

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used mainly by working class people, we are pushing people away.

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You know, that might have got media coverage, but on the other hand, it's alienating a critical constituency.

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And bear in mind, one of the problems of the environmental and climate movement that it's far too wide and far too middle class.

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So you were international executive director of Greenpeace International from 2009 to 2015.

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In that time, what was the most challenging global shock that challenged the organisation that challenged Greenpeace?

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I think the Fukushima nuclear power plants, uh, vulnerability after the tsunami in I believe it was 2011.

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And it's at a time also when people were trying to make a big push for nuclear energy because they said it was carbon neutral,

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which, by the way, it's not 100% carbon neutral. And there's major questions around water and resources and so on.

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So and so we were struggling right until Fukushima to get movement on countries like Germany and Italy, for example, but six months after.

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So we turned that crisis into an opportunity.

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And this is just be very clear why I and many others don't think nuclear energy is the solution to the current situation,

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because to put it simply, it's too expensive, it's too dangerous, and it'll deliver too little, too late.

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To address the climate crisis, the global shock of Fukushima, which was put the world on anxiety, and not just in Asia.

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You know, I also faced other global, which would say to us that Greenpeace was like a global shock,

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but probably not to the world as a whole, which had to do with the culture and the reality of international organisations.

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And I'll tell the story because it's a painful one. So in 2014, the climate negotiations were taking place in Lima, Peru.

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And I hate going to those negotiations because it kind of always is very frustrating because you seem as if you are doing the same thing every year,

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and each year you just like moving the agenda, like, you know, one centimetre in the right direction.

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Groundhog Day. Yeah, exactly. So my colleagues in the Philippines kindly said to me, why don't you, rather than go to Peru,

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come and be in the Philippines because another horrific typhoon is on his way and thousands of people are going to lose their lives,

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and there'll be millions and millions of dollars in infrastructure loss.

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And let's stand with the people on the ground, and we can message in to Lima and the cop that was happening there.

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And, you know, we didn't have cell phone reception and so on.

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And we were kind of chasing the typhoon,

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trying to get ahead of it so that we could get to communities and support them with temporary solar installations and so on.

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So they could call their families and so on.

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And, and we would interview them and tell their stories, and we would use satellite phone to, to send the stories to, to the negotiations in Peru.

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When we come out of it, we get a shock to. Discovered that Greenpeace Germany had led an action on a sacred site in Peru called the Musk Alliance,

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which allowed a corrupt political elite in Peru.

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The president and the people around him to then turn that into attention away from the corruption investigations and so on, that were going on to say,

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oh, Greenpeace disrespected our culture, by the way, the Peruvian government was not doing anything substantial to protect the Nazca lines.

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So it was complete opportunism on their part. But should we have done it?

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We should not have done it, but no question.

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And, you know, in a situation like that where indigenous peoples around the world were criticising Greenpeace immediately,

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people in the world of archaeology and cultural protection of historical sites and so on,

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with so upset with us as well as the climate movement, because suddenly nobody was talking about what's happening in the climate negotiation,

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everybody, the news became saturated with good people.

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Can we arrest the people? You know, that's how the government played the agenda.

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I then went and I've never witnessed I never had tomatoes and eggs thrown at me in my life.

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But that, you know, what I see when there are global shocks is that people in leadership don't actually step forward and say,

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we made a mistake, we made a miscalculation, and we take responsibility.

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Part of what I was trying to do in that, that for us was like for me was emotionally because bear in mind, right, the inequality of it.

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Can you imagine a bunch of Peruvian activists coming to Germany and occupying a church in Germany?

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The German office of Greenpeace would never agree to that, right?

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But the global north can parachute into global South places with complete immunity and arrogance.

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And that has to shift. And even though I was not aware of the decision and I had to deal with the aftermath of it, I felt it was responsible,

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the right thing for us to do as Greenpeace was to go and apologise and say, this is not who we are.

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Would you say that part of learning the lesson is to really think more carefully,

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as you said at the beginning of a conversation about how to truly be a global organisation, is that is that part of the answer to these moments?

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Absolutely. Because because if as a global organisation, you're choosing to do something in one national space,

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then we should evenly say yes, that we will do that in all national spaces.

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So like with Covid and the vaccine apartheid that most of us in the global South had to deal with,

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they were saying the powerful nations of the world were saying, we need to get people vaccinated, we need to get people vaccinated.

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And and they developed the vaccines because they have the resources on a scale that the global South could never have done it,

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with the exception of India, which caught up and played a big role. We have to have equity in how we act in the world,

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and basically the global system has very limited equity in the people that dominate decision making.

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It's, you know, you would say, okay, it's changing a bit now.

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And I think that the formation of bricks and its recent expansion is an attempt to balance the power that exists.

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The difficulty for many of us in the global South is that some of the leading governments in BRICs are not the shining examples of democracy,

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or of justice, or of anti-corruption and so on.

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You know, like my country, South Africa, which is a leading figure in BRICs,

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is one of the most corrupt countries in the world with one of the most corrupt political leaderships that that you can find.

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And so while I agree with a lot of the words coming out of the mouth about the changes we need in the international system and so on,

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there is this difficulty that what they are saying and why saying it is not necessarily what they're going to follow through on.

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Right. And so that's the other huge problem we have with the state of our politics at the national and global level.

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And so for civil society organisations, we have to live up to the criticisms that we are making about the injustices in the global governance system.

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Right. If we are making critiques about, you know, people should not stay in positions,

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they shouldn't develop a culture of indispensability, then we need to reflect that fully.

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And another small example, you know, the one thing that international organisations,

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national governments and international NGOs have in common is that over time they've ended up all using the same consultants, you know.

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No, seriously, they using, you know, Accenture, KPMG, Deloitte and Touche,

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all the major consulting firms in the world, Boston Consulting Group, uh, Gemini named them.

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They all now have significant sort of non-profit practices, as they call it.

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So even when I was at Greenpeace, you know, that was the logic.

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The many of those contracts were in place. And of course, if you've designed the organisation to look like corporations and you.

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You're mimicking them. Then you're going to need the same consultant to help you figure out how to make those institutions run more effectively.

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Yes. And so a big question for people who believe that the current system is not simply

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one that requires incremental tinkering and baby steps in the right direction,

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but people who believe that the current system is broken to an extent that it requires substantive structural and systemic change.

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If you hold that view,

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then you have to recognise that it's a fraud to suggest to people that if we just improve things and it's all going to be okay, don't panic.

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Right. And that's the approach we've taken to climate since 1992, since the first Rio summit.

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The powerful thought we can get some nice words in the final declaration and show that

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we are going to do something that responds to what the science was saying will be okay.

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And now we are in a situation where we are right at the climate cliff.

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And let's be blunt, as we you know, people ask me the question, is it too late to address climate change?

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And this is a question, by the way, people who are asking me ever since I was at peace from 2009.

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And my answer is always an optimistic one, which is to say that the window of opportunity to prevent catastrophic,

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runaway, irreversible climate change is small and shrinking, but the opportunity is still there.

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What you see with the most progressive or radical of of political parties,

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when they are out of power, they can be very transformative in what they say.

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But when they get into power, you know, understandably, the constraints of power is very, very limiting within certain current global rules.

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And those very global rules continue to perpetuate more and more global shocks.

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Right. I mean, Covid itself is a result of us not addressing deforestation.

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And and so we then continue to generate more and more, if you want, uh,

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crises or global shocks that that each time we are more shocked by and each time appear to be more incompetent in addressing it as a global community.

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And the last thing I would say is that climate change, I've been arguing since 2009 can be an opportunity.

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Well, at 2009, it could have been an opportunity, right?

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Which is for us to recognise.

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For far too long, we've lived in a world that's been divided between north and south, east and west, developed and developing, rich and poor.

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What climate change is saying to us, hey folks, get it together, get it together and get it together fast because you'll either act as a united,

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global family and community, and hopefully you can reduce the amounts of deaths that are happening.

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So for the people who are dying, like the 450 people that died in my city in Durban in 2022, it's too late for that.

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Right from two days of crazy rainfall that created massive infrastructure losses and took 450 lives.

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It's too late for those people, surely. But I still want to believe that we are still in a moment where we can actually

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prevent the worst losses of human life and the complete destruction of countries,

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and so on. Even though parts of Africa are becoming depopulated as a result of climate change as we speak,

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I still want to believe that it's possible for us to deal with the biggest global shock.

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And, you know, it's interesting about whether you could even call climate change a global shock in the sense that

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the global shock sort of suggests that something that was unanticipated came out of nowhere.

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And so the terrible thing about it is that climate change is the biggest global shock that we face, but we don't treat it as a global shock.

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We treat it as always, just one other issue.

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And therefore it's important for us to recognise that the struggle to but to address climate change is not an environmental issue.

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Climate change is a cross-cutting issue. It's a failure of our economic system, energy system and so on,

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and we have to deal with it in a more intersectional way than we've been doing in the past.

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If we think about the past, what we've been doing in the past, how Greenpeace is, uh,

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is trying to achieve climate action since it's, uh, been founded, a lot of things have changed.

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Of course, there's been lots of lots of different individual shocks in the past that Greenpeace has been dealing with.

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Geopolitical tensions have just shifted a lot over the last decades.

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And at the same time, global governance itself has changed.

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You mentioned the role of consultancies. For example. The way global governance is being done has has changed over the last decade.

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So if we take all of that, how would you say can Greenpeace, as an organisation learn from its own past,

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and how can it deal with this diversified and fractured global governance landscape that we have today?

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The real imperative of Greenpeace and other international NGOs is to recognise that they cannot continue to operate.

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We have operated historically that cannot continue to call themselves international when they actually the decision making,

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the finance, the control and so on is very much in the global north.

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That needs to change. So there's a big contradiction there.

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We cannot say to governments and businesses we need to transition to an economy that's driven by clean,

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green, renewable energy rather than an economy that's, you know, driven by dirty fossil fuel based energy.

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Because when we say that to governments, we are not saying to them it's a walk in the park for you to do that.

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We recognise that it has to be through a just transition, that it's complicated, that it'll take time and all of that.

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So we can't be saying the science says you need to change in the substantive way on the one hand, and then on the other,

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we say, oh, for us to become to balance the power between the global South and the global, not with the international NGOs.

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Uh, we need about ten, 20 years to do that, you know, uh,

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and put a different timeline of what we need to do to be fit for purpose versus what governments and business need to.

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We should be ahead of the game anyway, because we are supposed to be the ones that are driven by public service in a much more fundamental way.

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You know, we're not compromised by the profit or by power.

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Yes. Well, that's the logic of it. Therefore, we should be significantly performing better in how we look and so on.

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You know the sad reality. There are senior management teams of most international NGOs.

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If you were to look at them, with a couple of exceptions, they are all led by very good people.

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Let me just say good people from the global north.

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But that doesn't matter how good they are, it's sending the wrong message that we still live in a colonial world,

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which still means that the voices, perspectives, expertise,

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capabilities of people from the global South are not valued in the same way as people who come from significantly more privileged,

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uh, better education systems, more opportunity and so on.

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Because, you know, the pathway for somebody like and, you know, like with, with Greenpeace,

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I'm the first and the last person from Global South to be the head of Greenpeace, which is a 60 year old organisation.

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That's just not good enough, in my judgement.

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The ability to be as consistent with what you say and what you do is a critical success factor for the international NGO community going forward.

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I think that they need to be shrinking the bureaucracies,

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putting more resources to frontline communities who are facing whatever issues that they're facing,

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especially on climate, but all the intersecting crises, and start moving in that direction.

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Because the reality is that the power and impact of the international NGO community is on a decline right now,

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international NGOs that still have an important role to play,

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but that role can only be played if they look and feel as global as the challenges that they seek to address.

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Kumi Naidoo, I want to thank you so much for your time, for generously sharing all this really,

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really interesting experience and sharing your thoughts on where climate action and climate cooperation might go in the future,

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might have to go in the future. Thanks so much, Kumi. Thank you very much.

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You've been listening to Global Shocks, the podcast of the Oxford Martin programme on changing global orders.

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My name is John. I'm a postdoctoral research fellow in international relations.

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And I'm the host and producer of this podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow us and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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Do have a look at the show notes for further reading on today's topic, as well as links to our website and social media channel.