1
00:00:01,530 --> 00:00:05,730
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Oxford Martin School.

2
00:00:05,730 --> 00:00:10,440
My name is Charles Godfrey. I want to do nothing more than to welcome you to this building.

3
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:20,080
The wonderful old India Institute and saying what the marvellous school does is where we bring together programmes which tend to be interdisciplinary,

4
00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:28,320
looking at major problems of the 21st century. And one of the problems we're most proud of is on African governance and I say nothing over.

5
00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:39,840
Pass on to Stephan Durcan. And quickly, just just say a few words for the Africa conference programme here, based at Oxford Martin School.

6
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:46,740
It's called, it's biocartis was already there who will convene, who will moderate the panel today on my cell from the icon.

7
00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:51,990
So it's actually meant to bring different disciplines, especially more from economics and politics together,

8
00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:55,440
to actually studying issues to do with Africa and its governance.

9
00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:01,020
And of course, the topic of today really matters a lot in the way economics and politics comes together,

10
00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:06,080
so it's very opportune to have a partner like this. Thank you.

11
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:17,060
Thank you, Stephanie. Well, well, a warm welcome to all in person here at the Martin School in Oxford and also for those of you joining us online.

12
00:01:17,060 --> 00:01:24,830
We have a very large audience online today. The subject of today's event is the role of professional facilitators in the

13
00:01:24,830 --> 00:01:31,040
United Kingdom in enabling money laundering and also reputation laundering.

14
00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:38,300
Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the resulting sanctions regime has shed light on the UK's harbouring of illicit wealth from around the world.

15
00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:45,650
It has also revealed the centrality of enablers in the legal and financial sectors in laundering oligarchs money and reputations.

16
00:01:45,650 --> 00:01:49,760
This was, of course, an open secret for the better part of the last decade.

17
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:57,620
A small number of brave journalists think tankers, law enforcement officials, academics and politicians have been denouncing this.

18
00:01:57,620 --> 00:02:00,500
Despite the UK's crippling libel laws.

19
00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:09,050
Data leaks such as the Panama Papers, the FinCEN Files, the Panama Papers have also shown this in a very meticulous way.

20
00:02:09,050 --> 00:02:17,720
But the current circumstances have galvanised public interest and created the best prospect yet for meaningful policy change.

21
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:22,640
In today's event, we will be discussing past attempts at kerbing, professional facilitators,

22
00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:33,590
the inadequacy of present regulations and the prospect of improvement through the upcoming Economic Crime Bill, amongst other ongoing efforts.

23
00:02:33,590 --> 00:02:41,870
Most pressingly, we will be asking after a decade of signalling reform intent, is change really about to happen?

24
00:02:41,870 --> 00:02:47,780
To discuss these matters today, we have invited Dame Margaret Hodge and Andrew Mitchell,

25
00:02:47,780 --> 00:02:53,240
two of the foremost actors in this effort at tackling illicit money in the UK today.

26
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,490
They Margaret Hodge is has been MP for Barking and Dagenham since 1994.

27
00:02:58,490 --> 00:03:04,670
She previously served as leader of Islington London Borough Council from 1982 to 1992.

28
00:03:04,670 --> 00:03:10,760
She served as the first female chair of the Public Accounts Committee from 2010 to 2015 and held

29
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:16,370
several government positions in the last Labour government holding portfolios across education,

30
00:03:16,370 --> 00:03:20,540
work, pensions and other business culture. Many other dimensions.

31
00:03:20,540 --> 00:03:28,640
Most recently, Margaret's interest in combating illicit finance has dominated her time as a backbench MP in her

32
00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:36,590
role as co-chair of the UK's All-Party Parliamentary Group on Anti-Corruption and Responsible Tax.

33
00:03:36,590 --> 00:03:47,720
On my left, I have Andrew Mitchell, who has been MP for Sutton Coldfield since 2001 and was previously MP for Gedling from 1987 to 1997.

34
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,320
He served in cabinet as Secretary of State for International Development from

35
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:57,200
2010 to 2012 and subsequently as government chief whip in the House of Commons.

36
00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,850
In 2017, he became as senior adviser to the African Development Bank.

37
00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:07,670
Andrew has extensive experience on development issues and as co-chair with Margaret of

38
00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:13,370
the UK's All-Party Parliamentary Group on Anti-Corruption and Responsible Tax of both.

39
00:04:13,370 --> 00:04:22,250
Margaret and Andrew have worked cross-party and tirelessly to deliver on numerous policy initiatives which clamp down on dirty money,

40
00:04:22,250 --> 00:04:26,960
illicit finance and money laundering. Thank you both for joining us.

41
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:37,160
We are delighted to have you here today and as discussed, Andrew and Margaret will make very quick introductory remarks.

42
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:45,800
We will then have a brief conversation about 12 20, 25 minutes, during which I'll ask some some lead questions to get the conversation going.

43
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:55,850
John Heather Shaw, who's professor of politics and international relations at the University of Exeter and one of the foremost experts in this field,

44
00:04:55,850 --> 00:05:01,520
has led many large research projects in this field and is also the author of several books,

45
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,410
including Dictators Without Borders,

46
00:05:03,410 --> 00:05:10,000
which I think is one of the landmark books in this field will be providing us with brief comments on the discussion,

47
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,020
and at that stage, we will open the floor to your comments and your questions.

48
00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:19,940
There will also be engagement with the questions from the online audience and through Claire Boyer,

49
00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:24,350
who somewhere in the audience and who's responsible for organising for managing the event.

50
00:05:24,350 --> 00:05:33,050
So without further ado, Andrew, if you'd like to start the conversation with some introductory remarks, then has to work through Margaret.

51
00:05:33,050 --> 00:05:40,310
Well, thank you. Thank you very much indeed for your very kind introduction and for the opportunity to discuss these important matters.

52
00:05:40,310 --> 00:05:46,190
Afternoon. I want to just make some general comments on why this area is so important.

53
00:05:46,190 --> 00:05:51,020
And then Margaret, who is the real expert on all this stuff, will will will say something.

54
00:05:51,020 --> 00:05:55,940
I think about the very specific subtext of this afternoon's discussion,

55
00:05:55,940 --> 00:06:04,610
but I am very conscious that this is part of an overall rapport about African governance and the challenges and whether the UK is finally changing.

56
00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:08,950
So I just want to make a. Three points about why this is so important,

57
00:06:08,950 --> 00:06:18,760
and the first is that although we focus most recently on Russia and Russian oligarchs money stolen by that route,

58
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,960
there is a most enormous amount of money that is stolen from the developing world.

59
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,940
And there's pretty credible research work done, including by the World Bank,

60
00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:36,070
which suggests that the amount of money that is stolen from the developing world is something of the order of a trillion dollars a year.

61
00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:42,850
And it is, you know, the failures of governance above all, which mean that politicians,

62
00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:50,890
corrupt warlords and business people are able to steal from states which don't have the right structures,

63
00:06:50,890 --> 00:06:57,010
the rule of law, the correct procedures to defend that innate wealth from being removed.

64
00:06:57,010 --> 00:07:02,470
And anyone who wants to understand the importance of all this should read Stefan Duckhorn,

65
00:07:02,470 --> 00:07:09,790
whom I had the pleasure of working with at Defend his book about governance with which effectively says it's about leadership.

66
00:07:09,790 --> 00:07:16,330
So where you have really good leadership, then you do build up these structures, which stop this sort of thing from happening.

67
00:07:16,330 --> 00:07:23,920
So with this enormous amount of money that is stolen from Africa, particularly Africa, but other parts of the developing world,

68
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:32,030
the UK, we now know, is hugely exposed as an inadvertent or adverse enabler because we have a rule of law here.

69
00:07:32,030 --> 00:07:36,910
We also have overseas territories which come under the British flag and come under our queen and

70
00:07:36,910 --> 00:07:43,780
therefore have a quote unquote rule of law where illicit funds can be deposited and where they are,

71
00:07:43,780 --> 00:07:49,780
quote unquote safe. And these tax havens grant anonymity,

72
00:07:49,780 --> 00:07:56,620
and it's why Margaret Hodge and I across party have tried to make sure that there's much more transparency

73
00:07:56,620 --> 00:08:03,400
injected and that we have structures which are far more open and open registers of beneficial ownership.

74
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:08,470
And the proof of the fact that we were quite effective at this is that in the British Virgin Islands some time ago,

75
00:08:08,470 --> 00:08:14,800
there was a demonstration, a mass demonstration where I believe there were placards saying Hang Hodge and Mitchell.

76
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,270
So that suggests the way we have. We have had got that right.

77
00:08:19,270 --> 00:08:32,350
So, so the the answer to this afternoon's specific subject, given this enormous amount of stolen money from one form or another, the enablers of that,

78
00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:33,850
the accountants and the lies,

79
00:08:33,850 --> 00:08:41,140
the baddies will always be able to pay more and get the the good and the bad as well to get the best advice from his neighbours.

80
00:08:41,140 --> 00:08:49,780
And we've seen it too. We've seen the British anti-crime agencies without enough budget to worried that if they lose,

81
00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:53,350
what will the effect be on their reputations and they just can't performance?

82
00:08:53,350 --> 00:09:00,340
One of the big, big problems and the extent of all of this so clearly demonstrated by the Panama Papers,

83
00:09:00,340 --> 00:09:07,690
is very difficult to get the Treasury to make sure there's enough money, the structures of maybe what they used to do in the old days.

84
00:09:07,690 --> 00:09:17,320
In the city where the the takeover code was run by lawyers who was part of their career structure would

85
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,120
go and work for the government service and Freshfields and letters and so on with top of their salaries.

86
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,660
And it was part of the way in which you got to the top in those professions.

87
00:09:25,660 --> 00:09:31,000
Well, you know, the government doesn't operate like that in the policing and anti-crime stuff.

88
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,260
And the second point on this is the difficulty of getting change through Parliament.

89
00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:40,840
And that is because when Margaret and I hove into view, civil servants have two reactions.

90
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:48,040
The first is I've already created a perfect bill. So why are these ghastly backbenchers coming and telling me it can be improved?

91
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,290
And the second is the not invented here syndrome, which means that if it was possible to improve it,

92
00:09:53,290 --> 00:09:59,200
you'd already have thought that we don't need irritating backbenchers like Margaret Hodge and Andrew Mitchell to tell us what to do.

93
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:07,780
And and so getting change is very hard. I asked Mrs May whether she would implement the Magnitsky Regulations,

94
00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:18,100
which are visa bans and currency money freezing and also the question of especially, she said no.

95
00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:24,490
Then the Russians used biological weapons on the streets of the British city and a few weeks later asked the same question.

96
00:10:24,490 --> 00:10:29,920
She said Yes. So, you know, that shows you that engaging with the issue about whether it's a good thing to do

97
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:36,070
or not is is if it comes from the backbenches is not often very well received.

98
00:10:36,070 --> 00:10:41,590
And the final point I wanted to give you as an example was we were hoping for another crime bill.

99
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:45,340
Margaret may say something about in the moment, but if you look at companies house,

100
00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:50,140
you realise I mean, it's the best possible example of all these difficulties. So companies house.

101
00:10:50,140 --> 00:10:54,170
If you want to set up a company, Britain very proudly says we're the best country in the world.

102
00:10:54,170 --> 00:10:58,720
Set up a company because it takes you six minutes to register your company at Companies House.

103
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,800
And everyone says, Goodness me as Britain got capitalism. Well, solve that.

104
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:09,220
But in fact, if I register companies, how? The company might say my name is Michael Mouse or Mickey Mouse.

105
00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:13,720
It will go through so companies house is a is a library is not.

106
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,260
It doesn't investigate anything. And for a long time, Margaret may have been banging on.

107
00:11:18,260 --> 00:11:25,120
You've got to give companies house powers. You've got to ensure the Treasury from them to have those powers.

108
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:33,790
And then you and you and companies house, which in 2016, at least in theory, you had to say who you were if you registered.

109
00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:36,490
Of course, if you had a company in the British Virgin Islands,

110
00:11:36,490 --> 00:11:42,040
you would register in the name of the ABC Corporation rather than who you actually were.

111
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,330
So it just I'm really just showing the huge difficulties.

112
00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:55,720
The new companies bill will apparently have a go at sorting out companies as it will deal with information sharing the powers to seise crypto assets,

113
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,960
and it will set up a new kleptocracy cell in the National Crime Agency.

114
00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:09,100
But all those things require money. Immense focus from government ministers with other things to do and an unremitting commitment.

115
00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:16,060
I go back to my first point, which is the reason the commitment is so important is if we don't help these states preserve

116
00:12:16,060 --> 00:12:20,410
their assets so they can build up education and health services and a rule of law.

117
00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:24,760
The golden thread of international development, as David Cameron used to call it.

118
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:33,730
Then they will go backwards. They will be engulfed in conflict and poverty and all of those things for reasons everyone in this room understand,

119
00:12:33,730 --> 00:12:39,730
threaten our way of life in this country, as well as the way of life of the poor people who are caught up in these circumstances.

120
00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:47,440
Thank you, Andrew. We had a question later on about this, specifically the African dimension, but you beat me to it.

121
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:54,370
Obviously, the reason why we're convening this event is that we we feel that the issues that are normally

122
00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:59,950
discussed as pertaining exclusively to Africa are actually part of a much wider global story.

123
00:12:59,950 --> 00:13:08,800
And one of the concerns that I'll return to is that even as we are having a conversation that seems to have a reformist bent to it,

124
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,380
it tends to be a conversation about Russia very targeted at Russia, not at systemic reform.

125
00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:18,010
But we'll come back to that can. Exactly. So thank you very much.

126
00:13:18,010 --> 00:13:22,810
Thank you very much. Martin, probably three brief points as well.

127
00:13:22,810 --> 00:13:24,660
The first is to put this into context.

128
00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:30,940
I mean, I started on this journey when I chaired the Public Accounts Committee, and Andrew's friend David Davis,

129
00:13:30,940 --> 00:13:35,740
came up to me and he'd he'd chatted before me and said, I'll help you, Margaret.

130
00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:42,820
So I said, Thank you, very grateful and deeply what I was doing. And he said, Vodafone, you've got to look at Vodafone's tax affairs.

131
00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:47,620
And I said, Look the world and thinking what the tax office of a private company got to do

132
00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:52,960
with a parliamentary committee that is supposed to oversee value for money.

133
00:13:52,960 --> 00:14:02,350
And then it came to me that, of course it was. It came to the heart of whether HMRC as efficient as to whether or not they collect the money.

134
00:14:02,350 --> 00:14:06,070
And then we started the first thing. This is a slight digression.

135
00:14:06,070 --> 00:14:11,170
The first thing was we had a really boring session with Vodafone, with HMRC,

136
00:14:11,170 --> 00:14:16,600
and I was sitting there reading the papers on Sunday night thinking this is so tedious and have to pick up private.

137
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:17,950
I am private.

138
00:14:17,950 --> 00:14:25,510
I was running a story about Goldman Sachs sweetheart deal and I thought, Oh, I'll ask them that tomorrow and I won't go into the whole story.

139
00:14:25,510 --> 00:14:32,110
It was a very funny story, but the getting onto Goldman Sachs is a sweetheart deal started this whole journey.

140
00:14:32,110 --> 00:14:38,350
That brings me to the main point, which is it is part of a spectrum. So I saucy economic crime.

141
00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:45,190
If it starts with, you know, we all buy an ice, it then goes to do you pay your cleaner by cash,

142
00:14:45,190 --> 00:14:50,620
it then goes to you, be a builder by cash and it again gets into economic roll.

143
00:14:50,620 --> 00:14:55,330
It then gets into aggressive tax avoidance, economic crime.

144
00:14:55,330 --> 00:15:03,220
And I would argue that that the real danger to the UK is not just that we are a jurisdiction of choice today for dirty money,

145
00:15:03,220 --> 00:15:10,660
with estimates of about nearly 300 billion pounds of dirty money reaching our shores each year.

146
00:15:10,660 --> 00:15:12,490
And that's if you put it into context.

147
00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:20,030
A quarter of total public expenditure is a lot of money, but that has started to infect the public domain and politics.

148
00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:27,070
And you see that a little bit with the Russian funding of a Polish of conservative politicians,

149
00:15:27,070 --> 00:15:32,860
the Chinese funding of Labour politicians and you see it in contracts and things like that.

150
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:37,390
So I see this as a big spectrum. And if we don't call a halt,

151
00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:45,850
actually Britain's reputation and our success in the financial services sector is in jeopardy because in the end, people won't.

152
00:15:45,850 --> 00:15:49,720
You can't get rich on dirty money, sustainably rich on dirty money,

153
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:58,240
and there's plenty of good money around the world desperate to invest and we would actually grow our financial services sector on that.

154
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,530
So the first thing is the spectrum. The second thing is, you're right, we're using Ukraine.

155
00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:11,240
I mean, we've been I've been banging on about these issues. Over a decade we've had we have had some great successes and rely on the transparency

156
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,470
with overseas territories and crown dependencies was a moment of success.

157
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:20,990
But if we can use Ukraine to tackle the challenge, other apologise for it.

158
00:16:20,990 --> 00:16:26,240
And of course, the challenge goes well beyond that. And you only have to look at the great leaks.

159
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:37,280
Every leak that came up from the Panama Papers through to the Pandora papers demonstrates how many world leaders were engaged in hiding their money,

160
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,580
maybe legally, but often illicitly.

161
00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:48,510
It's a massive, massive issue, so let's use Ukraine and the moment at the moment that could do to try and tackle that.

162
00:16:48,510 --> 00:16:55,160
And what I was going to say is we have published and my committee together with another parliamentary committee on banking.

163
00:16:55,160 --> 00:17:05,750
So we're making common cause across parliament. A published a manifesto last week to 10 days ago where we talk about tackling this on four fronts.

164
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:14,330
So we have to look at regulation. We have deregulated the financial services sector, started under Thatcher,

165
00:17:14,330 --> 00:17:20,270
continued under Blair and Brown to such an extent that it's become very easy to use all our corporate

166
00:17:20,270 --> 00:17:30,740
structures and our infrastructure to create avenues to bring illicit wealth into the legitimate system.

167
00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:36,740
So we have to look at regulation and one of the issues. One of the arms I took about four arms of reform.

168
00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:44,150
One of the areas is companies has just to add what Andrew said cost you 12 quid to set up a company in Britain is completely crazy.

169
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:52,790
It cost you one thousand two hundred and twenty pounds to get a visa for us and for a for a skilled worker.

170
00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:59,360
Just put that into its context completely potty. We could quadruple the amount of money that you just set up.

171
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:04,550
A company that would give you plenty of resources to equip companies has to do a proper job

172
00:18:04,550 --> 00:18:10,910
and unique identifying the beneficial owners and then in also doing some red flag raising.

173
00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:14,600
So regulation is one issue. Enforcement is another.

174
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,280
We are pathetic and enforcement. The Americans are slightly better.

175
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:24,200
We, the Americans, have just increased their budgets in enforcement for 30 by 30 percent cent.

176
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:31,160
They see it as a security threat as well as a threat to standards of living and all that sort of stuff.

177
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:40,490
We've cut ours by four percent. You look at the number of cases that have been taken around money laundering, it's declined by 35 percent.

178
00:18:40,490 --> 00:18:44,750
You look at the agencies, they're hardly doing anything. This is serious.

179
00:18:44,750 --> 00:18:50,840
Fraud office is more than a cut by over 50 percent, the number of cases that they're taking at the moment.

180
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,610
So enforcement is the second arm, and we think that's partly through funding.

181
00:18:55,610 --> 00:19:07,280
But we and again, you could fund it by giving the enforcement agencies a percentage of the fines and assets that they seise in pursuing dirty money.

182
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,420
The third one is transparency, which Andrew and I have done work around,

183
00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:18,770
and there is further work that the government brought in this first economic crime bill.

184
00:19:18,770 --> 00:19:31,160
Just just at the beginning of the Ukraine crisis, where property is used, UK property is a key way in which dirty money is laundered,

185
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:39,900
literally laundered around jurisdictions worldwide and brought in buying property here in the UK.

186
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:46,310
We reckon 1.5 billion tons of Russian property here in the UK at the moment.

187
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:54,290
And I mean the figures, nobody has an accurate figure, but you're talking about billions of billions, as you say, elsewhere.

188
00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:59,810
So I think transparency still issue and we've got some issues there which are difficult to tackle.

189
00:19:59,810 --> 00:20:07,730
So Usmanov, who is one of the Russian oligarchs who owned Arsenal and is not another football come from a football club,

190
00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:10,130
which I don't support, so I can't remember the name.

191
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:19,070
But anyway, he has transferred all his assets when they were supposedly frozen, he's transferred them into a trust.

192
00:20:19,070 --> 00:20:25,910
So how we actually get transparency around trusts without interfering in the right of individuals

193
00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:32,480
to set a grandparent trust for their children's expensive fees here at Oxford or whatever it is,

194
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,160
that's that's that is a very difficult issue that we have still to crack.

195
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:42,740
And if you could help us with, that would be great. But transparency third and the fourth one is accountability.

196
00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:50,600
At the moment, there is absolutely zero accountability for all the activities that takes place in this space through parliament

197
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,810
to the public and to to campaigners and academics and and all those that have an interest in the area.

198
00:20:56,810 --> 00:21:04,530
We have a proposition there where we should set up a joint committee of the two houses, a select committee of the two houses that.

199
00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:09,220
Meet on the Privy Council terms, so it would meet in confidence that could look at all these issues,

200
00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:14,340
look at individual cases and then do systemic reports that would reach the public domain.

201
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:21,060
Finally, two enablers enablers. This is a difficult issue on which to build cross-party support.

202
00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:22,530
Some of these issues, it's easy,

203
00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:33,210
but enablers is tough on financial services sector has enjoyed massive growth through the deregulation that the gates had.

204
00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:41,010
But they are at the heart of facilitating dirty money, and we have to, and they are never held to account.

205
00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:46,200
They always get away scot free, and you just look at all the the all the leaks.

206
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,510
All of them are about enablers,

207
00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:55,260
whether it's Mossack Fonseca or whether it's Applebee's or whether it's actually the Pandora papers were really interesting

208
00:21:55,260 --> 00:22:03,420
because that went across the face of all enablers to to to to see where they are to show how they facility in some tight.

209
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:08,340
Some places they collude. In other instances they really do facilitate.

210
00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:12,690
And I learnt about this early on in my journey when PricewaterhouseCoopers,

211
00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:17,220
for whom I worked for a couple of years before I became an MP, I hasten to add.

212
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:22,260
Literally, they were selling. They were mass marketing, tax avoidance schemes,

213
00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:29,940
aggressive tax avoidance schemes from by getting companies to take money out of the UK into Luxembourg,

214
00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:38,130
and they completely denied that they were doing that. It was seen as cool and good to do that and that cool, you know it was yours.

215
00:22:38,130 --> 00:22:48,150
You were a cool, cool sort of person or a company or a financial advisor if you help people avoid evade tax.

216
00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:56,940
And that, I think, has infected everything. But it is really important that we bring those enablers to account and the difficulty is one.

217
00:22:56,940 --> 00:23:07,170
There are big sector and it will cause a little bit of a ripple in that sector and in the post-Brexit time when

218
00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:12,210
the economy is also feeling the shoulders of Brexit on the shoulders of COVID on the shoulders of Ukraine.

219
00:23:12,210 --> 00:23:19,770
There will be a reluctance on government side to do anything that destabilises even the slightest the financial services sector.

220
00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:28,440
Secondly, they are very, very close to government. And you know, there's nothing wrong with government talking to stakeholders,

221
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:35,010
but there is something wrong when government takes that beyond that to allow undue influence on regulation

222
00:23:35,010 --> 00:23:42,360
or allows revolving door appointments over large contracts or allows public appointments to enter the fray.

223
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:49,020
And they are very, very there are very, very, very powerful lobby and you see that all the time.

224
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:51,540
And the third thing I have to say with this particular government,

225
00:23:51,540 --> 00:23:56,610
and I don't hold Andrew in any way as part of this, but with this particular government,

226
00:23:56,610 --> 00:24:04,860
there is a very close sort of financial relationship between a Conservative Party at the moment and the financial services sector,

227
00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:10,140
which is deeply unhealthy and chose Britain using its moral compass.

228
00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:19,650
So we're in a difficult time of tackling the very, very vested and powerful interest and and and holding them to account.

229
00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:28,110
But we see that as absolutely crucial. We have got a number of ideas in our manifesto as to how you start down that road.

230
00:24:28,110 --> 00:24:34,200
I'd be interested to hear from you if you've got other ideas because we're in the market for those at the moment.

231
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,610
And the only interesting thing finally to say is this has been a real for me, an interesting journey.

232
00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:46,560
You know, I'm a sort of Labour politician through and through tribal labour, but I guess anything will get we will get this.

233
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,450
Anything done in this space at this point is by working across parties.

234
00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:59,850
And I've talked to conservatives one to one in my room, lots and lots and lots of them from right across the spectrum of the Conservative Party.

235
00:24:59,850 --> 00:25:06,870
And there really is people come from a different, different to view to the same conclusion.

236
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:15,570
But there really is very little resistance to regulating to getting better enforcement,

237
00:25:15,570 --> 00:25:22,050
getting stronger transparency and to getting better accountability, to getting those four things implemented.

238
00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:28,080
So this is a moment in time when I think we could achieve change and we've just got to grasp it.

239
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,830
Thank you, Margaret. Let me start with a question with a quote from you.

240
00:25:32,830 --> 00:25:39,150
You said and I quote, we have become we the UK have become the jurisdiction of choice for every kleptocrats,

241
00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:46,940
criminal and money launderer in the world and the quote to give our audience a sense of diagnostic.

242
00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:51,420
How did we get here? What happened over the last 30 years?

243
00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:55,920
I fully agree with your with your statement. How did we get it?

244
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,330
Well, I think I think it's it's partly the deregulation.

245
00:26:00,330 --> 00:26:04,240
So it's OK with the Thatcher Big Bang. It then was the.

246
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,400
Regulation Brown Gordon Brown carried the breadth of the Blair Brown years,

247
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:15,910
so I think that deregulation made it that coupled with UK has always been a trusted jurisdiction.

248
00:26:15,910 --> 00:26:20,410
So, you know, if you can get something done here, that was one aspect of it.

249
00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:26,830
I think our relationship with our overseas territories and crown dependencies meant we had the secrecy jurisdiction linked to us,

250
00:26:26,830 --> 00:26:35,050
and that was really that helped us a lot too.

251
00:26:35,050 --> 00:26:39,190
I think there's you know and also we got the biggest financial services sector.

252
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:47,020
So when you're trying to, it's I think somebody talked about borderless money in border states.

253
00:26:47,020 --> 00:26:49,990
I think it's all of a value bullet use that phrase.

254
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:57,920
So if you're trying to shift money across jurisdictions, we've got a very big financial services set.

255
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:04,330
You know, the biggest us in America, that's that was hugely important.

256
00:27:04,330 --> 00:27:11,680
We speak English, all those sort of things. I think that helps animals and our enforcement is pathetic.

257
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:20,840
So even where we do have rules, we completely fail to enforce them of companies house being the classic example that Andrew talked about.

258
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:27,670
You know, you can set up a company and force law office, National Crime Agency, they're woefully under their ban.

259
00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:33,520
And then we did things like golden visas. You know that that brought more, you know, that helped.

260
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,000
And that was brought in by the Labour government in 2008.

261
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:46,180
So there's a whole raft of things that that brought in billions of money, lots and lots of Russian money, not elsewhere as well, but lots of it.

262
00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:53,320
Andrew, what is the articulation between the city of London and the Crown dependencies in the British Overseas Territories?

263
00:27:53,320 --> 00:28:01,180
You and Margaret mentioned some notable successes that you've both jointly achieved in this regard, but the limits of those successes,

264
00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:08,170
the autonomy of these jurisdictions, as we can see from the British Virgin Islands pushing back over the last two weeks.

265
00:28:08,170 --> 00:28:13,840
What can be done? And first, how does it work? And second, what can the House of Commons?

266
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,950
What can Westminster do to it? That hasn't been done yet?

267
00:28:17,950 --> 00:28:21,850
Well, just just sort of sliding from your first question to Margaret.

268
00:28:21,850 --> 00:28:30,940
I mean, the the fact is, the city of London is the top or one of the top three financial centres in the world.

269
00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:35,560
Plus you've had the deregulation, plus you have the rule of law.

270
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:41,560
So, you know, if you are a villain and you've got a lot of money and you're going to put it in London,

271
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,580
you know that there are rules of ownership that are property rights and so on.

272
00:28:45,580 --> 00:28:50,620
And you're going to sleep much better when you put it in a lesser jurisdiction. So that is the pull factor.

273
00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:55,450
And then it's been very difficult for the government, for example, on the British Virgin Islands,

274
00:28:55,450 --> 00:29:01,840
because the British Virgin Islands and the other Caribbean dependencies are a relic of empire.

275
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:07,120
They were not big enough to stand on their own two feet when Empire came to an end.

276
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:15,040
So they've remained in this rather sort of odd relationship where they share our crown, the Queen,

277
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:21,860
and they have appeals to British courts and the Privy Council in certain circumstances.

278
00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:25,480
They have secrecy and this is a toxic combination.

279
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:32,830
And so, for example, in the early days when Margaret and I were trying to make the case for open registers of beneficial ownership,

280
00:29:32,830 --> 00:29:40,150
and this got a real lift in 2016 and under the Cameron Osborne G8,

281
00:29:40,150 --> 00:29:47,730
where Britain declared that we would now have open registers, beneficial ownership and the EU said that they would sign up to it in due course.

282
00:29:47,730 --> 00:29:52,510
But it all took a very long time and it did not penetrate through to the overseas territories.

283
00:29:52,510 --> 00:30:01,600
And in that classic British way, what they said was look open registers where journalists and others can come along and can see who owns something.

284
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,790
This is just a busybodies charter.

285
00:30:03,790 --> 00:30:11,650
What we will do is we will have closed registers, but we will ensure that any law enforcement agency in Britain or indeed America,

286
00:30:11,650 --> 00:30:15,790
anywhere else can come to us and get the answer to a question.

287
00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:21,160
And if it's to do with terrorism, we will answer that question within an hour and on anything else to do with

288
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,900
the law will answer within 24 hours and everyone thought that's a great idea.

289
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:35,320
And then you've got the Pandora and the Panama Papers published and you saw why that doesn't work, because you don't know the questions to ask.

290
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:42,070
You can't join up the dots on all this dirty money moving around the world, and you have to have experts,

291
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:48,580
busybodies, civil society, journalists, investigators able to see what those dots are.

292
00:30:48,580 --> 00:30:59,020
And that's the Panama Papers blew away any credible argument from government in Britain to avoid having overseas having these open registers.

293
00:30:59,020 --> 00:31:04,250
And so we were able to impose it because the government didn't have a majority and Margaret.

294
00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:11,150
Explained to the government they would lose a vote, so they caved in, and the way these things work, it was so obviously the right thing to do.

295
00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:14,180
And of course, what happens when Dominic Raab was a foreign secretary,

296
00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:21,350
he issued a written statement saying it was government policy to have all these overseas territories having open registers.

297
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:26,510
And I sent him a note saying whichever official draughted that written ministerial statement

298
00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:32,840
should be promoted and has got a brass neck to do so because you have this force down your throat.

299
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:41,990
And he said me back on WhatsApp saying, Actually, I draughted it myself. Margaret, I want to get to the heart of something,

300
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:53,240
which is implicitly why some people who understand these practises to be moral nonetheless are reluctant to go against him, which is, is it?

301
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,470
Is it in the British self-interest to regulate these practises?

302
00:31:57,470 --> 00:32:06,110
Or will that be economically negative because it will chase away some forms of business, which are dubious but are lucrative?

303
00:32:06,110 --> 00:32:08,630
We see, for instance, what's happening with Russian sanctions.

304
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:18,500
Dubai is, which is already a very dubious jurisdiction, is benefiting massively from financial, Russian financial financial flows?

305
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:27,590
Or is it alternatively that the the the reputational impact in on the UK is harbouring of these practises?

306
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:35,510
Is that going to be more significant in the long run? In other words, what is the hard edged business case for cleaning up?

307
00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:39,030
Well, you know, clearly I'd like to hear Andrew on that as well.

308
00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:40,460
OK, sorry.

309
00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:50,570
Clearly, the business community will argue that it would be deeply damaging to the financial services sector, and we would argue back, I would argue.

310
00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:57,830
I'm sure Andrew would argue that we both argue back that you will not get sustained prosperity on the back of dirty money.

311
00:32:57,830 --> 00:33:04,970
You will if you lose your reputation, if you look at all the indices after the FinCEN Papers, I think it was one of them.

312
00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:14,300
America has now downgraded us as a trusted jurisdiction sees us like Cyprus and that, you know, we're now on that trajectory going down.

313
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:18,860
And if you're not trusted, clean money won't want to come here.

314
00:33:18,860 --> 00:33:24,590
And there is so much clean money floating around the world that we can,

315
00:33:24,590 --> 00:33:33,440
we can and should take advantage of our historic reputation as a trusted jurisdiction to build on that.

316
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,790
But it is. It's in all sorts of ways. They are making a fool.

317
00:33:37,790 --> 00:33:43,940
I mean, FinCEN can't remember which leaks it was, but one of them with the banks, the banks in particular.

318
00:33:43,940 --> 00:33:51,570
I think it was the FinCEN Papers. They fill in. You can just see anybody who has anything to do with any of us having any background.

319
00:33:51,570 --> 00:34:00,920
You answer a party in the checks they do. I chaired I chair a charity at the moment chair and I need they need my signature.

320
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:08,390
I can't tell you the hurdles I'm going through most customarily fortune to a picnic because on the politically exposed persons.

321
00:34:08,390 --> 00:34:13,460
So they're probably doing it. I am. Yeah, I'm a really good person.

322
00:34:13,460 --> 00:34:18,740
But and then you see the FinCEN leaks, which were these leaks of papers.

323
00:34:18,740 --> 00:34:30,200
They what they were were documents. The banks have to fill in this suspicious activity report and give it to the to the enforcement agencies.

324
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:38,780
And this is the American. FinCEN is the American enforcement agency. And what they clearly do is they fill it in in their bureaucratic way,

325
00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:42,950
but they don't then do the checks that they do on the likes of me and my charity.

326
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:52,160
They then carry on. They just carry on taking money because it's easy money to make and it makes them lots and lots of money.

327
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:58,610
And the other the other leaks we saw was actually this was perhaps one of the most shocking was an early lesson for me.

328
00:34:58,610 --> 00:35:05,240
I don't know if any of you remember the HSBC leaks from Switzerland, known as the false Hirani leaks.

329
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:09,650
And out of that it was, I mean, we were in the heart of that.

330
00:35:09,650 --> 00:35:20,990
This was this was the Swiss branch of HSBC, and anybody with any business would see it was making much greater profits than any other bit of HSBC.

331
00:35:20,990 --> 00:35:25,970
But nobody thought why they were making it because they were encouraging their

332
00:35:25,970 --> 00:35:31,760
clients to do tax evasion and they were using it to launder money through.

333
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,200
And the only response of it's a very good example of the spectrum as well.

334
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:42,890
The response of the head of SBC to all this was to go after the whistleblower.

335
00:35:42,890 --> 00:35:45,830
They they weren't interested in what the whistleblower had found.

336
00:35:45,830 --> 00:35:51,920
They just wanted to get the whistleblower and they tried to pursue him to court and get and get him done.

337
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:59,960
And then the woman who was, I'm sorry to say this, the woman who was in charge, she she ran the audit committee for HSBC,

338
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:09,270
Rona Fairhead went on to become a Tory minister, a conservative minister for trade, and she had evidence when she came to the public accountability.

339
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:11,100
It was purely shocking.

340
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:16,760
You know, she she should have said of the audit committee, this should have been the sort of red flags that she'd been looking for.

341
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:24,860
Totally failed. And she really talked about the whistleblowers as the thief.

342
00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:30,080
And then the only other thing I would say about all this is the lawyers who were now who are suddenly coming lawfare,

343
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:37,370
which, you know, you're all hearing about a bit more and a lot of what you're subject to, a bit of that.

344
00:36:37,370 --> 00:36:45,620
A lot of the investigative journalists who have written brilliant books as a brilliant book on Fusion's people by unaccountable.

345
00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:52,520
Yeah, yeah. There's a load of really, really brilliant stuff. Tom Bergin has written a book and he works at the FBI.

346
00:36:52,520 --> 00:37:01,760
They are not pursued by the oligarchs with lawsuits which are again the leading law firms are making zillions out of.

347
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:09,620
And if you're an oligarch spending for 10 million quid on just a legal case is nothing.

348
00:37:09,620 --> 00:37:19,280
If you've got 12 to 20 billion pounds as your as your wealth that you've stolen from the Russian people.

349
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:24,230
And that's another aspect which we have simply got to bear down on, you know,

350
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:31,460
which is in our manifesto to stop this litigation being used and lawyers in

351
00:37:31,460 --> 00:37:39,850
the UK using it for them to make money and to stop short stories being told.

352
00:37:39,850 --> 00:37:44,560
The basic problem is that the baddies run rings around the goodies.

353
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,270
And so what we have to do is we have to try and even it up. That's the basic problem.

354
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:53,710
The baddies have the money they can. They can buy the best lawyers.

355
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:58,330
And it's it's. We've got to we've got to make it budget for.

356
00:37:58,330 --> 00:38:03,280
That's not just about tightening the law, it's also about a whole series of things.

357
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:11,570
When I got back into the House of Commons and in 2001, having had a Foya enforced sabbatical following the Blair landslide of Nice 1997,

358
00:38:11,570 --> 00:38:17,670
so gone back to the city and was earning my living at Lazard and in a Lazard.

359
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:25,810
And in those days, I had a rule which no Russians and I can remember going to the greybeards in the in the bank and saying,

360
00:38:25,810 --> 00:38:28,600
I call this deal and it's got X, Y and Z.

361
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:35,090
And the director would say to me, Andrew, we have a rule here, no Russians, and there's a Russian element to this.

362
00:38:35,090 --> 00:38:41,570
You can't do it. And that was sort of quality of judgement, which I think they deserve very high credit for.

363
00:38:41,570 --> 00:38:43,090
Now, when I got back in 2001,

364
00:38:43,090 --> 00:38:53,200
the Labour Party was in power and they were introducing a series of restrictions to address the issue of money laundering.

365
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:59,080
And I haven't come out of the city was very conscious of the fact that these changes and

366
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:08,260
restrictions were in danger of impeding the good guys without actually filtering the bad guys.

367
00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:14,020
And I remember asking the hapless labour minister how much money laundering is there in London.

368
00:39:14,020 --> 00:39:16,270
And they said, Well, a lot.

369
00:39:16,270 --> 00:39:24,280
And I said, but not, you know, if there's a billion of money laundering, then these restrictions are probably massively excessive.

370
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:32,860
And if it's 40 billion, they're probably nowhere near enough. And how can you bring in these regulations if you don't know what you're dealing with?

371
00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:40,060
Now, the reality remains that those regulations stopped good guys from practising their business and

372
00:39:40,060 --> 00:39:45,850
carrying out their business and loaded costs onto the consumers and didn't really stop the bad guys.

373
00:39:45,850 --> 00:39:49,930
And then the banks realised that the thing to do was to report everything and swamp

374
00:39:49,930 --> 00:39:55,360
the swamp the regulatory authorities and report anything at all with a red flag.

375
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,990
And then they're swamped. So you can't you can't do anything about it. And this is the problem.

376
00:39:58,990 --> 00:40:07,370
We need to we need to change the dynamics of a system where the bad is always likely to to succeed.

377
00:40:07,370 --> 00:40:13,060
And what I said before I was trying to demonstrate that even when we tried to support the

378
00:40:13,060 --> 00:40:21,400
good is the system actually is quite inert in the way it handles it and are not also less.

379
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,660
I'm much more wary of the Americans than I think Margaret is because I mean,

380
00:40:25,660 --> 00:40:32,650
I think American justice means you either say you're guilty or you go to prison, you know, you have to plea bargain.

381
00:40:32,650 --> 00:40:39,790
The case of Mike Lynch at the moment. So I'm extremely perturbed by the very certainty because he if he doesn't,

382
00:40:39,790 --> 00:40:47,270
because he has resisted being sent to America, extradited to America, he is by definition of flight risk.

383
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:54,370
So he goes to Americans, plead his case. He will be inside on the moment he lands in America in a horrible penitentiary.

384
00:40:54,370 --> 00:41:00,340
They will take two to three years to decide what charge, whether they will turn up on day one and say If you plead guilty,

385
00:41:00,340 --> 00:41:04,150
then you will go to prison for 18 months in the rather pleasant place.

386
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:11,110
And if you and if you don't plead guilty, we'll have you for 30 years and I don't think we want to go down anywhere near that route.

387
00:41:11,110 --> 00:41:17,680
And the other thing is that partly because the president comes from Delaware, where there's an awful lot of dirty money in any way.

388
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,270
You know, they're not in, they're not in the business of introducing open registers of beneficial ownership,

389
00:41:22,270 --> 00:41:28,090
but they are moving towards having closed registers of beneficial ownership.

390
00:41:28,090 --> 00:41:34,870
And in the case of America, that is a big deal. And, you know, maybe we'll get them to open registers in due course.

391
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:42,370
But getting the American system to move to even closed registers would be a big bonus.

392
00:41:42,370 --> 00:41:46,450
If I may, two very brief questions to both, and then we'll go to John Heather.

393
00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:54,640
So who who have some, some common sense and some questions? The question I have for for Andrew relates to what we discussed earlier.

394
00:41:54,640 --> 00:42:02,290
Some fear that this belated effort is still to Russia centric and misses out on real structural reform.

395
00:42:02,290 --> 00:42:09,700
My own expertise is on Africa, and what I'm struck is that when you're dealing with Nigeria or Kenya or Angola or South Africa,

396
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:14,590
the London names that crop up, we're talking about lawyers,

397
00:42:14,590 --> 00:42:19,960
bankers, management consultants, PR experts, in some cases,

398
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:27,790
even the sort of people that is and philanthropic donations to universities and think tanks and all of that.

399
00:42:27,790 --> 00:42:31,990
They're exactly the same individuals and firms. And there's no Africa pipeline.

400
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:36,550
They're the ones we've all been dealing with in the sort of Eurasia context.

401
00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:38,930
And yet they don't make the news or.

402
00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:47,660
In the current context, there doesn't seem to be appetite for action against old dirty money and not just Russia's.

403
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:51,980
Am I too pessimistic here or do you think that we're turning a corner here?

404
00:42:51,980 --> 00:42:55,790
Well, I think that Russia is the, you know, the crime of the moment.

405
00:42:55,790 --> 00:43:05,150
I think I'm not as pessimistic as you. I think we've been very we supported President Buhari, who go back a lot of dirty money from London.

406
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:11,900
He did deals with people. I mean, he managed to get a lot of money back.

407
00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:16,040
We were cooperative in that the case of James Ibori was was,

408
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:22,440
which happened on my watch or the work to get him up and on my watch was quite quite well done.

409
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,830
Not not perfect, but made some progress I think were very conscious. And that's the reason why I opened with this development thing,

410
00:43:27,830 --> 00:43:36,630
because the stolen money is estimated to be about four times the total flows of development money that goes into Africa.

411
00:43:36,630 --> 00:43:40,940
And that sort of that sort of puts it in context.

412
00:43:40,940 --> 00:43:45,800
And I think Jason Sharman, who like me is from Cambridge and who is sitting in the audience,

413
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:53,240
he's done a lot of work on this stuff from from Kings and Cambridge, and it's the whole waterfront we're going after.

414
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:59,450
And I think the focus, of course, on Russia and Ukraine is is is has grown.

415
00:43:59,450 --> 00:44:09,740
It was pretty weak until the Salisbury biological weapons attack then got a lot stronger and now it's getting stronger again.

416
00:44:09,740 --> 00:44:18,200
But never underestimate the inadequacy of the British authorities charged with clamping down on this.

417
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,700
They are short of money. They are short of expertise. And this is not police work.

418
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:32,540
You know, this is the work for the top accountants and lawyers and and tracking these people and the police tend to think it's the Al Capone theory,

419
00:44:32,540 --> 00:44:37,310
which is you can't do it on the on the on the complex stuff.

420
00:44:37,310 --> 00:44:44,480
So you do them for tax evasion, tax evasion and parking tickets that you can't do it like that you've got to have you've

421
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,810
got to get the best people going after the baddies are not working with the baddies.

422
00:44:50,810 --> 00:44:57,830
Margaret following from their of your cross-party work has been exemplary, their real achievements to it.

423
00:44:57,830 --> 00:45:04,190
Yet successive governments have failed to regulate in particular the facilitators is the moment now.

424
00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:12,680
Is it different now and why is that? Well, we're going to push it. This is why grasp Ukraine to look at the larger tapestry.

425
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,700
That's sort of my message. You're I never thought this would happen and it has happened.

426
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:24,260
So we're going to grasp it. And I think on the record, I think it's a it is the toughest of the issues that we're confronting.

427
00:45:24,260 --> 00:45:32,870
So stuff you can do from here to create a sort of environment in which it becomes inevitable is really important.

428
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:35,810
You've got to look at how they all supervise themselves.

429
00:45:35,810 --> 00:45:45,710
So all these all these advisers have a professional bodies that are supposed to regulate them and also actually do work,

430
00:45:45,710 --> 00:45:50,810
promote on their behalf, you know, lobby on their behalf. They're absolutely hopeless at the moment.

431
00:45:50,810 --> 00:45:59,120
So we have got we've got propositions in our so-called in our manifesto to toughen up supervision and the regulation,

432
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:05,630
either by toughening up the government agency that oversees the supervisors or the various ways you could do it.

433
00:46:05,630 --> 00:46:10,100
That's that's the first thing. The second thing is we are we want to introduce the law.

434
00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:16,520
Commissioners is looking at it a a new offence.

435
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,640
It's very, very difficult to get it.

436
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:27,710
The facilitators at the moment, because the whole of the law around liability for giving wrong advice or giving

437
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:32,330
advice that leads to wrong action was based on sort of 19th century businesses,

438
00:46:32,330 --> 00:46:34,970
small single person businesses.

439
00:46:34,970 --> 00:46:44,180
So what we're trying to put in a thing of particular failure to prevent offence and that is being looked at by the royal commission.

440
00:46:44,180 --> 00:46:50,030
I'm really worried that the law commission won't report in time to feed it into the economic crime bill,

441
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:54,290
but it's another area that is hugely important. That's the second thing.

442
00:46:54,290 --> 00:47:00,950
So we've got a proposition around supervision, a proper proposition around introducing new offences.

443
00:47:00,950 --> 00:47:05,360
The third thing is the accountability framework, an enforcement framework.

444
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,460
So if you get tougher accountability enforcement, that opens it to public account.

445
00:47:10,460 --> 00:47:16,730
And if you can open your public account that, you know, embarrasses some of these, you know,

446
00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:27,050
household names in the finance and financial sector and in the law that you want to get solid with dirty money at the moment.

447
00:47:27,050 --> 00:47:32,480
And then the full thing which is coming from somebody in the Labour Party, I think is very important.

448
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:38,510
I think we should use their expertise. I've always felt that. So I think you're a poacher turned good.

449
00:47:38,510 --> 00:47:48,440
Keep a little beach in this area wouldn't be a bad thing because we saw it in the ways that you did all the work on that.

450
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:55,220
There just is not the expertise within government that can stand up to the professional expertise,

451
00:47:55,220 --> 00:48:02,000
such as at the moment exploiting and creating this environment where, you know, with the jurisdiction of choice for dirty money.

452
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:10,730
So I would bring him in and I would make them or I would use them on a what's it called?

453
00:48:10,730 --> 00:48:15,080
No pay, no fee. No, no, no, no, not pro bono.

454
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:24,380
They won't do it on that basis, but no one, no fee, no or a no win, no fee basis and get a few poachers turned gamekeeper.

455
00:48:24,380 --> 00:48:28,710
And that, I think, would strengthen our enforcement.

456
00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:34,220
It's I don't think all my political colleagues would agree with it, but I think it's one of the ways through it.

457
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:39,830
Thank you, Margaret. We're going to hear some comments from John Heather, so.

458
00:48:39,830 --> 00:48:44,030
We will then give Andrew and Margaret the opportunity to respond briefly to them.

459
00:48:44,030 --> 00:48:47,810
And then hopefully we shall have about half an hour's interaction with the audience.

460
00:48:47,810 --> 00:48:55,580
And I know there's amazing expertise in this audience. It's really I'm looking forward to your comments and questions.

461
00:48:55,580 --> 00:49:05,660
John, thank you, Ricardo. So six months ago, almost six months ago, Ricardo and I with colleagues in this room from next Oxford and Cambridge,

462
00:49:05,660 --> 00:49:11,900
Tom 09:10 and Jason Sharman and also colleagues in the US published a report called The UK's

463
00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:19,550
Kleptocracy Problem How Servicing the post-Soviet Elites Damages the Rule of Law with Chatham House,

464
00:49:19,550 --> 00:49:22,280
the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London.

465
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:32,510
A great deal has happened since then, and even before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the Kazakhstan crisis brought this issue to the fore.

466
00:49:32,510 --> 00:49:41,030
I will just reflect on this in light of the comments Andrew and Margaret have made and finish each of those comments with.

467
00:49:41,030 --> 00:49:47,900
We have a question for the for the two of you. So what my action, what form my action in this area take?

468
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:56,630
We've heard a great deal and a lot of what I will say will sort of really just highlight or emphasise again the points that Andrew Margaret have made.

469
00:49:56,630 --> 00:50:02,000
But I think first of all, this is requires long term, but also short term action.

470
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:07,310
So in the sense that the deregulation of financial services created these problems,

471
00:50:07,310 --> 00:50:11,720
actually prior to that, the creation of the offshore system from about the 1960s.

472
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:16,940
This is an historical evolution, a change in the nature of global political economy,

473
00:50:16,940 --> 00:50:24,170
of which London and the UK is at the centre, which has emerged over decades. It's going to take a long time to regulate that effectively.

474
00:50:24,170 --> 00:50:32,450
But there is this moment right now to do something about this, which is about recreating state capacity in this area.

475
00:50:32,450 --> 00:50:38,840
When the offshore system was created, the Foreign Office and Treasury basically said to the overseas territories,

476
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,680
We've just mentioned you write your own rules and we'll go along with those.

477
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:51,530
What we need is a new state capacity to deal with this and a members like Andrew and Margaret at the forefront in pressing government to do that.

478
00:50:51,530 --> 00:50:55,730
I was struck in the Queen's Speech recently how kleptocracy was mentioned.

479
00:50:55,730 --> 00:51:01,670
This word was used in the guidance notes that the government issued and I did a little check of Hansard and

480
00:51:01,670 --> 00:51:07,520
found that kleptocracy or kleptocrats had been mentioned one hundred and eighty times since eighteen hundred.

481
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:13,520
The most interesting thing about that was about one hundred and forty of those mentions were in the last five years,

482
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,420
and about half of all mentions were since January of 2022.

483
00:51:17,420 --> 00:51:23,720
Since January of this year, a number of them would, of course, been by Andrew and Margaret.

484
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:29,360
And my question to you is, does this matter if we establish kleptocracy?

485
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:35,540
This is not a new fangled term. It's a classical term as a principle in UK law that if you're enabler handling

486
00:51:35,540 --> 00:51:40,100
funds from a politically exposed person from a kleptocracy which we can identify,

487
00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:45,050
we can designate we can put on a risk of a list of High-Risk third countries.

488
00:51:45,050 --> 00:51:50,090
Is that something that can be established as a principle in UK law that we should press for and push for?

489
00:51:50,090 --> 00:51:53,330
Is should there be a UK list of High-Risk third countries,

490
00:51:53,330 --> 00:52:02,390
which might be a great deal better than that of the Financial or Financial Action Task Force list or the EEAS list that we follow previously.

491
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:08,180
Secondly, it seems to me the action in this area must be moral, but also in our interests,

492
00:52:08,180 --> 00:52:13,940
and it is very often the moral value for and against attempts to regulate.

493
00:52:13,940 --> 00:52:16,880
Is privacy so great virtue in Britain.

494
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:23,060
I sort of feel it should be one of those national values we teach to our kids in primary school because privacy is often put out

495
00:52:23,060 --> 00:52:31,340
there against actually some of the Nolan principles that should and indeed we hold out as those things governing public life,

496
00:52:31,340 --> 00:52:38,400
which include integrity, openness and accountability. If you push back with privacy as a personal virtue, you're often pushed.

497
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,040
Back against those Nolan principles,

498
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:49,140
we see this in the universities world where the failure to establish clear ethics of self regulation about donations means

499
00:52:49,140 --> 00:52:56,610
that some of us have felt the need to push for a change in the law to force universities to publish their donations.

500
00:52:56,610 --> 00:53:03,900
And that's an amendment proposed by Jesse Norman for the to the higher education bill going through Parliament now.

501
00:53:03,900 --> 00:53:08,310
But that failure of morality, which can be pointed out,

502
00:53:08,310 --> 00:53:13,950
also needs to be accompanied by a recognition that is actually in our interests

503
00:53:13,950 --> 00:53:18,840
in the way that Margaret discussed and also in her losing moral compass.

504
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:24,490
Losing our moral compass paper was King's College in March. To to address this,

505
00:53:24,490 --> 00:53:35,050
because the research actually shows that the net value to the UK economy of a great deal of this activity is is either negligible or negative.

506
00:53:35,050 --> 00:53:38,350
If it has a value, it might be free tax avoidance schemes,

507
00:53:38,350 --> 00:53:43,540
which obviously take from the public purse if it's something like the Tier one investor scheme that's been mentioned.

508
00:53:43,540 --> 00:53:51,820
The research on that should be comparative across Europe shows that it has very little negligible effects, which is when it was ended.

509
00:53:51,820 --> 00:53:59,020
Current scheme was ended early this year. Part of the reason for that, of course, was that many dubious individuals, including sanctioned individuals,

510
00:53:59,020 --> 00:54:03,880
had been let into the country and got residency and then citizenship through that route.

511
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:12,760
But there was also no real economic value to it. So the question that comes out of that really is how do we convince the government of that?

512
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,440
How do we convince the government that this is an economic interest,

513
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:25,600
that that there's a there's a slice of financial services that's that serves high risk, very wealthy individuals that may lose out.

514
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:32,620
But the broader UK economy, very often in most of these occurrences of regulation, will not.

515
00:54:32,620 --> 00:54:37,060
Thirdly, it's political and requires political will.

516
00:54:37,060 --> 00:54:43,750
That's come very clearly from Andrew and Margaret's comments, and Margaret mentioned unexplained wealth orders.

517
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:47,170
It's a classic story, as I think of what often happens in this area.

518
00:54:47,170 --> 00:54:51,490
There's an initial surge by the government's big announcement David Cameron in 2016.

519
00:54:51,490 --> 00:54:57,490
We're going to do this, drawing partly on reports that time and Global Witness had at work time.

520
00:54:57,490 --> 00:55:02,140
Then the loopholes get built in as there's a certain amount of lobbying by the industry.

521
00:55:02,140 --> 00:55:05,200
But the key step is the third one underresourced.

522
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:11,560
Make sure the whole system is sufficiently under-resourced and National Crime Agency that it can't work and then you don't use it.

523
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,820
And that's what happens. Boris Johnson's government has not used an unexplained wealth order.

524
00:55:15,820 --> 00:55:20,710
It's been reformed now, but it's only fixed some of the problems and we will see what happens.

525
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:26,110
So how do we break that cycle? Because it seems to be. It does involve cross-party pressure, but it's soon.

526
00:55:26,110 --> 00:55:30,040
If you're involved in a how do we how do we break that typical cycle?

527
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:38,500
I've just outlined that. And finally, action in this area is international or should be international.

528
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:47,260
But in the sense of transnational, so it involves by partnership with other countries, but also with the private sector.

529
00:55:47,260 --> 00:55:51,340
Some of our researchers come up with relatively shocking findings.

530
00:55:51,340 --> 00:55:55,630
Maybe if you've worked in this business long enough, it's entirely what you would expect.

531
00:55:55,630 --> 00:55:57,910
But. For example,

532
00:55:57,910 --> 00:56:08,890
U.K. measures on freezing property and doing those unexplained wealth orders or going into the houses of some of these elites in the U.K.,

533
00:56:08,890 --> 00:56:13,240
what we know is if you are in exile, you may well lose your property.

534
00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:20,180
But if you're an incumbent in a kleptocratic state, particularly a kleptocratic state, which has good relations with the UK, you will keep it.

535
00:56:20,180 --> 00:56:26,020
And the reasons for that are not the exiles are fundamentally more dubious, quite the opposite very often.

536
00:56:26,020 --> 00:56:29,260
And if we consider for a moment what that really means,

537
00:56:29,260 --> 00:56:37,600
that means that British law in this area is being driven by power relations in kleptocracy, power relations that exist internationally.

538
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:47,830
So that needs to be, as has been discussed, a a way of recruiting the private sector to a set of standards to prevent that's happening.

539
00:56:47,830 --> 00:56:55,870
And I think that actual enablers, which has been touched upon, is something which seems to be at the top of the agenda.

540
00:56:55,870 --> 00:56:59,890
It may be that something we come back to, but I'll stop now. Thank you.

541
00:56:59,890 --> 00:57:08,380
These are four extremely rich questions. So in the interest of time, I would ask you to either choose a couple of the questions or give doubters very

542
00:57:08,380 --> 00:57:15,910
concise answers to those complicated questions so that we can only look at.

543
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:25,570
I mean, I agree it's long term. The UK listed as having a list of kleptocrats.

544
00:57:25,570 --> 00:57:29,260
Interesting idea, but you touched on something there, John,

545
00:57:29,260 --> 00:57:34,360
which is a real problem that we haven't we haven't found a solution to, and I don't think your views are either.

546
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,950
So we have frozen all these assets or all these kleptocrats around in Russia.

547
00:57:38,950 --> 00:57:44,410
We haven't sees them with the water in Ukraine to stop tomorrow.

548
00:57:44,410 --> 00:57:50,530
Arguably, they'd all go back and we can't think through so again, your help and support,

549
00:57:50,530 --> 00:57:55,750
no, in general, it's getting to an answer that would be really, really helpful.

550
00:57:55,750 --> 00:58:00,190
How do we convince the government that it's in the UK's interest?

551
00:58:00,190 --> 00:58:13,270
This is this is it is really, really, really, really hard because of the power of the enablers in in politics and in our politics.

552
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:16,960
Today is just really, really hard. They're the only ones.

553
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:22,850
I mean, I bet you never brought in to talk to Treasury officials all you talked about.

554
00:58:22,850 --> 00:58:28,880
Across Whitehall, Illicit Finance Group actually has invited us and Treasury US Open to a degree,

555
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,440
but it's in the last few months when they know the problem.

556
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:41,840
So we go all out for meeting. I think Treasury's key to this because I think, you know, I think you will probably find empathy in the Home Office.

557
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:47,450
You'll find these business departments as well so that they're OK.

558
00:58:47,450 --> 00:58:52,010
But it's Treasury that is key and you've just got to think of the part of the financial services sector.

559
00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:59,840
It's just incredibly powerful. So all I can tell you is I'm having these amazing conversations with individual conservative MP,

560
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:07,310
some of whom I look at their CV and they come up and they are sort of pro-Brexit, anti-abortion,

561
00:59:07,310 --> 00:59:11,390
anti-gay marriage and everything that sort of, I hope, dear on Flipboard,

562
00:59:11,390 --> 00:59:16,530
I'm going to talk to this person about and then they walk into the room and we start talking about Russia.

563
00:59:16,530 --> 00:59:22,210
We find those. We can find some common ground.

564
00:59:22,210 --> 00:59:29,060
And by the end of the conversation, they say they will support our proposals. So there's no I think we can build a majority.

565
00:59:29,060 --> 00:59:32,150
I'm pretty sure we can build a majority in parliament.

566
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:41,240
I really do believe that whether you can overcome the power of financial services sector in government, I think is the big challenge.

567
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,560
And international, I couldn't agree with you more. We did.

568
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:49,650
We haven't talked enough about that, but I think Andrew's has a really good answer to this.

569
00:59:49,650 --> 00:59:57,780
Maybe you should get on, but I think, you know, we've got to change nationally, but that doesn't stop us acting nationally and.

570
00:59:57,780 --> 01:00:03,780
Also briefly, I want to make three general points, but your very interesting and expert.

571
01:00:03,780 --> 01:00:10,240
The first is that I mean, I agree with you about the privacy argument because that was what we heard about the open registers that,

572
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:16,590
well, people in Mexico will be kidnapped and so on. But actually don't say privacy.

573
01:00:16,590 --> 01:00:21,360
Talk about transparency because at the root of this debate is sunlight is the best

574
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:28,090
disinfectant you want to have transparency and on the political corruption point?

575
01:00:28,090 --> 01:00:34,740
Well, all I would say is this I mean, I think my own party, which raises a lot of money for the private sector,

576
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:44,550
there is clearly too much Russian engagement there, and it's just doesn't feel right that we now have a lord, somebody of Kensington, Siberia.

577
01:00:44,550 --> 01:00:48,190
I mean, it just you just sort of know that something is not quite right about.

578
01:00:48,190 --> 01:00:53,430
So that's the first point. And it's not the same point is this it's not about geographies, actually.

579
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:59,850
It's because, you know, if you say that there are these six countries, the bad is or just go out for another one.

580
01:00:59,850 --> 01:01:04,200
So it's not about geographies on the international point.

581
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:09,460
I mean, you start from the basis. Of course, what you need is an international convention,

582
01:01:09,460 --> 01:01:16,950
a sort of U.N. on financial crime so that we can all sign up to the same standards and then you can really crack down.

583
01:01:16,950 --> 01:01:21,680
I mean, it won't work. You will never, ever get agreement.

584
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:28,590
The French will be perceived and probably actually truthfully going after the British on financial services.

585
01:01:28,590 --> 01:01:33,150
So they want particular things that I think will bear down on Britain's financial services.

586
01:01:33,150 --> 01:01:39,720
Other countries under the under the broad heading of internationalism will pursue narrow national objectives.

587
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:44,400
And remember at the moment what operating, I mean, is obviously devastating for for.

588
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:52,650
I find it devastating that since the war, we've been building more international agreement consensus, whether it's on trade or justice.

589
01:01:52,650 --> 01:01:57,300
The International Criminal Court building building up on the whole thing's been smashed to smithereens.

590
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:02,730
That but what has happened in Russia and Ukraine and the international system is really on the

591
01:02:02,730 --> 01:02:07,510
back foot at a time when you need internationalism to tackle all the major problems of the world.

592
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:13,470
So I don't think the international thing really works on the final point I wanted to make,

593
01:02:13,470 --> 01:02:19,710
which was trying to rewrite the private sector and dealing with the under-resourcing,

594
01:02:19,710 --> 01:02:32,070
which is all about the bad is always winning, you know, recreating state capacity, you know, in in in the city there used to be the takeover panel.

595
01:02:32,070 --> 01:02:37,200
Maybe that still is the takeover panel of the takeover panel regulated takeovers.

596
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:44,220
It stopped it being the Wild West when it came to a big company taking over another country and it dealt with the code.

597
01:02:44,220 --> 01:02:48,330
Now it's very close to the point we are discussing because the government could never

598
01:02:48,330 --> 01:02:53,970
afford to have the best lawyers and the best accountants to go on to the takeover panel.

599
01:02:53,970 --> 01:02:59,880
So the takeover code was administered by the takeover panel and the people on the takeover

600
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:06,270
panel were very senior lawyers and accountants who did it partly for the prestige,

601
01:03:06,270 --> 01:03:12,510
partly for their company and partly because the governor of the Bank of England said, You Freshfields, you Linklaters.

602
01:03:12,510 --> 01:03:19,110
You will allocate serious resources to put them that senior partner onto the takeover panel.

603
01:03:19,110 --> 01:03:24,330
And from the point of view of the individual, it was about their career progress and for the point of view of the city,

604
01:03:24,330 --> 01:03:28,220
it was getting very expensive, very good people at no cost.

605
01:03:28,220 --> 01:03:35,880
And I'm not. I mean, we require you brilliant academics to work out how we we do this,

606
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:42,450
but I think there may be something there about how you even up the odds because everything we've come up with.

607
01:03:42,450 --> 01:03:46,920
So for far, the baddies have got the best guys. Thank you, Andrew.

608
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:54,720
Margaret, and thank you, John. And we're going to open the panel to two discussions from the floor.

609
01:03:54,720 --> 01:04:02,400
I would ask you two things. First, please introduce yourselves and keep the second one is keep the question relatively brief so

610
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:10,370
that we can have as many questions as possible during the next twenty five twenty five minutes.

611
01:04:10,370 --> 01:04:17,780
I'm sorry, we have this gentleman over there, Professor Carlos Lopez, I thank you.

612
01:04:17,780 --> 01:04:24,740
Hi, my name is Carlos Lopez. I'm a visiting fellow at the Oxford Martin School right now.

613
01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:30,950
There was a lot of emphasis on the personal individual type of situation.

614
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:38,660
I'm more concerned from an African perspective with what corporations do and beyond BEPS,

615
01:04:38,660 --> 01:04:50,690
how you can use current accounts in corporations to basically do all sorts of illicit flows become possible.

616
01:04:50,690 --> 01:04:59,630
And how the absence of regulation makes it extremely easy for the companies to just do that.

617
01:04:59,630 --> 01:05:07,850
And on the other hand, almost at the other extreme, how that is overregulation in terms of due diligence by the banks,

618
01:05:07,850 --> 01:05:23,150
not very effective in terms of stemming the problem, but creating the opportunities for big large banks to justify withdrawing from African markets.

619
01:05:23,150 --> 01:05:32,240
Because, you know, the costs, the transaction costs of that regulation becoming prohibitive and therefore facilitating even further

620
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:40,820
this facility of corporations using the current accounts to basically transfer their moneys illicitly.

621
01:05:40,820 --> 01:05:47,570
I should I should add that. Professor Lopez is the former executive secretary of the United Nations Economic Commission for

622
01:05:47,570 --> 01:05:54,110
Africa and played a leading role in pushing the illicit financial flows agenda back in the days,

623
01:05:54,110 --> 01:05:59,750
although the African Union has since not really been a great actor in this regard.

624
01:05:59,750 --> 01:06:05,150
Andrew, perhaps you could take this question. I don't really have very much to add to what the professor has said.

625
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:16,340
I mean, he's sketched out the the problem, and it is, as you said, it is that a lot of very complex regulation is ineffective.

626
01:06:16,340 --> 01:06:25,430
What you want to achieve. But if you don't have regulation at all, then you you have an open door for kleptocrats.

627
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:31,930
And that is that is a real dilemma. Next question.

628
01:06:31,930 --> 01:06:39,190
Was there was sorry, the lady in the back? Hi, my name is Fikayo.

629
01:06:39,190 --> 01:06:43,330
I'm on the Contemporary China programme. I'm doing my master's.

630
01:06:43,330 --> 01:06:50,230
So this is a question I've asked every British politician and or diplomat, should I probably stand?

631
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:56,140
This is a question about every British politician and or diplomat that has come to Oxford since February.

632
01:06:56,140 --> 01:07:02,680
And I'll be honest, no one has quite answered the question honestly or directly, but I keep asking, so here goes.

633
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:12,700
Illicit money has been flowing into the UK since like 1990, when a bachelor was president of Nigeria,

634
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:18,840
but it's only recently become news when Russia has invaded Ukraine.

635
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:23,610
And my question is, what exactly is the message to African dictators?

636
01:07:23,610 --> 01:07:25,980
Is the message that, you know,

637
01:07:25,980 --> 01:07:34,560
you can basically put all your money in London and it'll be fine as long as you don't invade another country because we like the Pandora.

638
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:43,680
Papers reveal that at least 40 Nigerian politicians have property in London worth at least 200 of 50 million pounds, and nobody did anything.

639
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,790
But now that Russia has invaded Ukraine, we're going to change the laws. So is the message.

640
01:07:47,790 --> 01:07:52,860
Basically, do whatever you want at home, but don't invade another country?

641
01:07:52,860 --> 01:07:59,310
Thank you. Thank you for calling Margaret. Well, I think we have answered it, but I'll answer to getting.

642
01:07:59,310 --> 01:08:07,800
The message is mixed at the moment because we have a system in the UK that allows all that to happen.

643
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:15,120
But what we are doing is using Ukraine to bear down not just on Russian oligarchs,

644
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:24,240
but also to bear down on on whether it's from, you know, illicit body from wherever it comes, they're not going to.

645
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:32,700
Just as I've done two debates is his part of the Russian and Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, both of which are so corrupt.

646
01:08:32,700 --> 01:08:40,230
And there's so much money that they've stolen from their people is come here so you can find endless examples if you look at all the leaks.

647
01:08:40,230 --> 01:08:46,890
It's full of money coming out of sometimes actually quite jurisdictions that you don't expect it to come out of.

648
01:08:46,890 --> 01:08:54,930
What I hear, what I will come back to your thing. I'm often asked to speak at Commonwealth Parliamentary Association events where

649
01:08:54,930 --> 01:09:00,900
they bring people over to just to discuss how you should look after public money,

650
01:09:00,900 --> 01:09:05,160
how you prevent corruption. And I felt really comfortable doing that 10 years ago.

651
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:09,030
You know, I talk about the systems we had in place when we had very little corruption.

652
01:09:09,030 --> 01:09:17,130
Today, I feel embarrassed because I think that we have so opened our doors to it that we can no

653
01:09:17,130 --> 01:09:22,110
longer hold our head up and say we're a trusted jurisdiction that lives by the rule of law.

654
01:09:22,110 --> 01:09:28,830
I'm not even sure we don't do that as we see with our wonderful prime minister, if I can just have a little aside on that one.

655
01:09:28,830 --> 01:09:33,660
So it's so it's I think it's a mixed message, but let's use this.

656
01:09:33,660 --> 01:09:42,360
Nobody is saying nobody is saying that it's just the most egregious case of where I know this is a little bit of a minute,

657
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:48,090
but most egregious case I've come across where Britain has facilitating wrongdoing.

658
01:09:48,090 --> 01:09:56,010
The world was actually the Lebanese, the the explosion in the Lebanon for the ammonium nitrate, which was supposed to be going to Mozambique.

659
01:09:56,010 --> 01:10:03,300
It was supposed to be sort of fertiliser for Mozambique and sort of a couple of months after it happened.

660
01:10:03,300 --> 01:10:08,970
One of the very great investigative journalists who worked for Reuters rang me up and said, Do you realise Margaret?

661
01:10:08,970 --> 01:10:17,160
It's a British company that owns that owns that ammonium nitrate in the warehouse in Lebanon.

662
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:25,830
So I did my usual thing about, you know, typical bloody, you know, we got it absolutely hopeless regulatory framework didn't think twice about it.

663
01:10:25,830 --> 01:10:30,300
And then about a month after that, we got we got overwhelmed with, you know,

664
01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:35,610
the Lebanese Bar Association, various investigators in Lebanon coming to us.

665
01:10:35,610 --> 01:10:39,270
And what emerged in the end there were it was a British company.

666
01:10:39,270 --> 01:10:43,500
It was set up by a company services provider in Cyprus.

667
01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:50,790
She put herself down as the beneficial owner. She wasn't, and she didn't.

668
01:10:50,790 --> 01:10:59,220
She told HMRC that it was a dormant company. It wasn't because it was trading this ammonium nitrate and that it then emerged that it

669
01:10:59,220 --> 01:11:05,330
was sort of Ukrainian Syrians who actually owned this with a real beneficial owners.

670
01:11:05,330 --> 01:11:13,230
It wasn't going anywhere close to Mozambique, it was going to Assad, and it was being used for barrel bombs to drop on his civilian population.

671
01:11:13,230 --> 01:11:16,860
And that is, for me, the most appalling,

672
01:11:16,860 --> 01:11:24,990
egregious example of where up a dreadful regulatory framework are useless enforcement and lack of accountability.

673
01:11:24,990 --> 01:11:31,290
And our failure to have transparency leads to terrible things happening right across the world.

674
01:11:31,290 --> 01:11:38,250
So I mean, it's a really, really good question. I mean, I would just say to you that it goes back to Stephan Deacon's book that, you know,

675
01:11:38,250 --> 01:11:45,630
if Nigeria has a leader who is shamelessly plugging the book and I'm not, I'm not plugging my book.

676
01:11:45,630 --> 01:11:54,610
My book, which is which is available in all good bookshops, can't cope beyond the French tales from a reformed establishment lackey.

677
01:11:54,610 --> 01:11:57,970
But anyway, so but the point is it's about the quality of leadership.

678
01:11:57,970 --> 01:12:05,430
So when I was when Stephane and I were differed, you know, differed its main work was trying to bring James Ibori is money,

679
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:11,820
which would be distributed amongst his doctor, his wife and his mistress trying to get hold of that money.

680
01:12:11,820 --> 01:12:22,230
And the department did a lot of good in that respect. But you need a leader in Nigeria like Buhari now who who is intent on recovering stolen funds.

681
01:12:22,230 --> 01:12:23,760
And then you got something to work with.

682
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:31,740
And indeed, on my watch, we saw the people in the city of London police who are most engaged in this sort of work.

683
01:12:31,740 --> 01:12:37,830
And I utter the immortal words never heard by being uttered by any minister in any other government.

684
01:12:37,830 --> 01:12:42,360
You can have as much money as you can spend well to prosecute these causes.

685
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:50,710
So. So I mean, although you're right in saying that there's been a very narrow emphasis now on old Soviet Union Russia,

686
01:12:50,710 --> 01:12:56,370
the people who Margaret's done so much work to track down that actually the work of government was

687
01:12:56,370 --> 01:13:02,220
and was in Africa and Nigeria being the place where there were the richest pickings as it were.

688
01:13:02,220 --> 01:13:11,460
We focussed on them very much in answer to your second point about about identifying these properties in London.

689
01:13:11,460 --> 01:13:15,570
You know, that's why open registers are about and what we want. We require.

690
01:13:15,570 --> 01:13:23,010
You know, the name attached to the property. Andrew Mitchell Sani Abacha So that there's transparency and we know who it is.

691
01:13:23,010 --> 01:13:29,390
And you can't just say it's the ABC brackets, BVI close brackets business.

692
01:13:29,390 --> 01:13:34,410
Next question, we have a question here. Can introduce yourself.

693
01:13:34,410 --> 01:13:44,860
I just for the people online, so they. I'm then I'm a master's student in international relations here at Oxford.

694
01:13:44,860 --> 01:13:49,240
I have a quick question. Thank you for your fantastic remarks and all the work you do.

695
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:52,780
A quick question to Mr. Andrew Mitchell, but please feel free to comment as well.

696
01:13:52,780 --> 01:13:59,860
Just picking on up on the terminology you use and I've noticed words like villain Goodbody.

697
01:13:59,860 --> 01:14:05,950
I'm quite fascinated by kind of the dichotomous terms of use, and I want to maybe pick up on that and say,

698
01:14:05,950 --> 01:14:10,120
you know, is there an intention to to try and just change the public discourse around that?

699
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:15,490
We've heard from Prof. How Kleptocrats has suddenly become a very much used word in the past few months.

700
01:14:15,490 --> 01:14:22,790
And what more could we be doing to change the public discourse to bring awareness around around this particularly pressing issue?

701
01:14:22,790 --> 01:14:30,850
So all I'm trying to do is to use a neutral word that is not, is not capable, is not capable of being passed.

702
01:14:30,850 --> 01:14:34,060
So I'm talking about baddies and goodies.

703
01:14:34,060 --> 01:14:44,770
And I mean, I'm inviting you to assume that the technical term is correct because I think I think that makes it easier to to go down,

704
01:14:44,770 --> 01:14:51,460
go down this route in a way that is reasonably easy to comprehend.

705
01:14:51,460 --> 01:15:03,910
Other questions, Professor Chris Adam there. Professor, thank you, and thank you very much for the presentation and the discussion, I think is great.

706
01:15:03,910 --> 01:15:12,520
I want to take you back to this issue about transparency and accountability and ask for your reflections on whether you feel that effect.

707
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:20,980
It's voluntary mechanisms such as the ITII Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative have proven effective.

708
01:15:20,980 --> 01:15:29,080
You're talking about the need to put in place better mechanisms to drive both transparency and accountability.

709
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:33,130
And this is not what maybe 20 years old it was a Blair government initiative.

710
01:15:33,130 --> 01:15:40,420
It was taken on, I think, with a fair degree of enthusiasm by the Conservative government that followed.

711
01:15:40,420 --> 01:15:45,970
And I'm just interested in your reflections on taking stock. Is this is this a model that that helps us?

712
01:15:45,970 --> 01:15:54,520
Is it a model that has run its course? Are there lessons to be learnt from the successes and or failures of It--i to hold

713
01:15:54,520 --> 01:16:01,250
parties to a higher level of transparency and accountability in illicit transactions?

714
01:16:01,250 --> 01:16:15,410
Either, first of all, when I first went to see the OCD in 2010 12 roundabout, that they've been working on this since 1980.

715
01:16:15,410 --> 01:16:21,440
You know, it's crazy how long it takes. So that's the first observation, it's not it's not even as recent as you said.

716
01:16:21,440 --> 01:16:27,530
The second is that the transfer in theory works if all the other bits are in place.

717
01:16:27,530 --> 01:16:36,410
So you know the quality of the data. I mean, it just 40 companies house is is just completely so full of terrible, terrible data.

718
01:16:36,410 --> 01:16:45,710
It's not worth which is why we need the reforms, because you've got to you've got to keep revisiting these things and then that data has to be used.

719
01:16:45,710 --> 01:16:49,430
And that means your enforcement agencies have to use it.

720
01:16:49,430 --> 01:16:54,710
You have to have accountability to the public through parliament and to all of you doing work around it.

721
01:16:54,710 --> 01:17:01,460
All those, that's what I talk about is always talk about these four pillars, which I think are a way of looking at it.

722
01:17:01,460 --> 01:17:09,710
So I think transparency is a key ingredient, but it has failed us to date because actually,

723
01:17:09,710 --> 01:17:14,300
you know, money laundering, dirty money has grown during the period that we've had it.

724
01:17:14,300 --> 01:17:19,130
And ironically, I would say Cameron and Osborne sort of got it.

725
01:17:19,130 --> 01:17:22,820
And I think if they'd been around for longer, we'd have made much greater progress.

726
01:17:22,820 --> 01:17:28,140
But they then disappeared. Theresa May came in obsessed with Brexit, didn't have.

727
01:17:28,140 --> 01:17:32,570
I think she just generally genuinely didn't have a space to think about anything else.

728
01:17:32,570 --> 01:17:38,120
And I don't think honesty and transparency is top of Boris Johnson's agenda.

729
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,250
And Margaret have been specifically beneficial. Ownership was a priority late in the Cameron.

730
01:17:43,250 --> 01:17:47,990
Yeah, I think I think they completely got it. I think they really did get it.

731
01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:50,270
I mean, when we first saw light on it,

732
01:17:50,270 --> 01:17:56,750
they would say what they were there with us and whether there was always the ambivalence with the powerful financial enablers.

733
01:17:56,750 --> 01:18:00,490
They've always been very popular, but they just got it. So.

734
01:18:00,490 --> 01:18:05,820
So it's absolutely brilliant. This is the extractive industry transparency initiative.

735
01:18:05,820 --> 01:18:13,130
And what it says is if you are a poor country and you have resources that, first of all,

736
01:18:13,130 --> 01:18:22,370
an unscrupulous international business or company that comes in and knows the value of those those resources and the country doesn't know them.

737
01:18:22,370 --> 01:18:30,140
You have you have unequal transparency that so so the guy says you must you must be completely open about the value.

738
01:18:30,140 --> 01:18:33,620
And then it talks about the cost of exploitation,

739
01:18:33,620 --> 01:18:41,690
who whether it's the people taking the stuff out of the ground to make the profits or the country, which is the host to that asset makes a profit.

740
01:18:41,690 --> 01:18:42,440
What happens to it?

741
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:51,290
And then extractive industry transparency means also that you try to see that the profit goes to the country actually goes through public services.

742
01:18:51,290 --> 01:19:00,320
I mean, that, in a nutshell, is what the EIA promotes, and it takes money off businesses who think as part of their ESG and social responsibility.

743
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:03,860
They are absolutely brilliant and works quite well.

744
01:19:03,860 --> 01:19:08,720
My predecessor, Clare Short, a politician of totally different colour to me.

745
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:15,200
But but on this issue, we are upset once she run it and run it very well lived on a plane for three years,

746
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:20,600
reading and driving these important points in places where it matters.

747
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:25,190
A really good example of how you even up the odds in the area we're talking about.

748
01:19:25,190 --> 01:19:29,810
Thank you. Adrienne Fireboy has a question from our online audience.

749
01:19:29,810 --> 01:19:39,620
So picture has asked few policymakers and academics from the issue of capital flight and if f as a violation of human rights there.

750
01:19:39,620 --> 01:19:43,310
Clearly there are all kinds of human rights groups. We thank you very well.

751
01:19:43,310 --> 01:19:52,400
Sorry, OK, sorry. A few policymakers and academics framed the issue of capital flight and IMF as a violation of human rights.

752
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:55,730
They clearly there are all kinds of human rights abuses being committed,

753
01:19:55,730 --> 01:20:01,670
but framing the issue in this way be a means of pursuing more trans and cross-national solutions to the problem.

754
01:20:01,670 --> 01:20:06,490
We would walk away human rights, freezing human rights contract.

755
01:20:06,490 --> 01:20:11,500
So that's Magnitsky. I mean, that's what essentially a Magnitsky does that.

756
01:20:11,500 --> 01:20:20,240
And I think if you had Bill Browder here, he'd say every time I put a case to any of the enforcement authorities, it goes into a big black hole.

757
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:28,130
But I mean, you know, clearly, if you can link human rights to illicit wealth, this is a good thing.

758
01:20:28,130 --> 01:20:29,720
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.

759
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:40,830
And actually it's even worse because with Bill Browder of Magnitsky, he's got a file of he's written to eight British law enforcement agencies to say,

760
01:20:40,830 --> 01:20:45,290
here is an issue involving of this person and this money will investigate.

761
01:20:45,290 --> 01:20:49,400
And all eight of them have come back and said, No, it's not for us, it's for someone else.

762
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:57,350
And it's part of what Margaret was saying about the ineffectiveness of the regulatory and enforcement structure which exists in Britain

763
01:20:57,350 --> 01:21:06,700
and why I'm beginning to think that the we need more academic work on whether the takeover panel model might be a better way of of of,

764
01:21:06,700 --> 01:21:10,940
you know, putting some red blood corpuscles into this. Thank you, Andrew.

765
01:21:10,940 --> 01:21:14,410
We're to get to the end of our of our week.

766
01:21:14,410 --> 01:21:20,750
We have a question here from tenant privilege. If we can, we can still accommodate accommodate one.

767
01:21:20,750 --> 01:21:26,540
Thank you. Hello, I'm Dan accredits, I'm a research associate here at the Department of Politics, International Relations.

768
01:21:26,540 --> 01:21:28,550
Thank you very much for the fascinating panel.

769
01:21:28,550 --> 01:21:37,760
So we heard very rightly about calls for reform and empowerment of the companies house system reform of companies.

770
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:43,970
So, yeah, we heard from from Andrew about how important it is to be in power companies house.

771
01:21:43,970 --> 01:21:49,490
So it's not just the library, but actually provides an effective check to it for the system.

772
01:21:49,490 --> 01:22:02,270
I was wondering whether the charity commission is also part of these to the charity commission is also part of these discussions and if not, why not?

773
01:22:02,270 --> 01:22:06,260
So why did you invite comments from Margaret on how exactly this process works?

774
01:22:06,260 --> 01:22:11,630
Because from the perspective of US researchers working on these topics, it's not very effective at all.

775
01:22:11,630 --> 01:22:14,450
So let me just share one example.

776
01:22:14,450 --> 01:22:22,810
So there was a multimillion dollar donation coming from a hypocrisy on on whose board of this charity there was a very clear idea,

777
01:22:22,810 --> 01:22:25,360
but couldn't be more clear.

778
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:33,450
And there was no information on the Charity Commission's website about about the financials or anything about this company.

779
01:22:33,450 --> 01:22:38,090
We contacted it and we got something in response. We got the documents.

780
01:22:38,090 --> 01:22:48,290
That said, financial report zero pounds for the same years when a 10 billion pounds donation was made very, very publicly.

781
01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:54,980
So it appears that this might also be a library rather than, you know, an effective system providing checks and balances.

782
01:22:54,980 --> 01:23:01,820
So thoughts about how it works now and what would be necessary to do to empower it.

783
01:23:01,820 --> 01:23:05,900
I think you immediately got a reaction here with the words Charity Commission.

784
01:23:05,900 --> 01:23:14,840
We're concerned. Both speakers somehow jumped forward, but my favourite thing that we when I chair the Public Accounts Committee,

785
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:22,010
we looked at the charity commission and its effectiveness or otherwise in regulating the charity sector.

786
01:23:22,010 --> 01:23:26,420
And again, they too have been starved of resources.

787
01:23:26,420 --> 01:23:31,130
So you, you know, they haven't got the capability and capacity to do it,

788
01:23:31,130 --> 01:23:41,450
and they too are very much a library that just sort of takes in the information and doesn't look at it intelligently or even check that it's accurate.

789
01:23:41,450 --> 01:23:47,330
And therefore they too fail to work with other regulatory bodies.

790
01:23:47,330 --> 01:23:56,060
So they should have a relationship with HMRC, for example, which is quite critical relationship beyond where the where the donations come from.

791
01:23:56,060 --> 01:23:57,470
And they just, you know,

792
01:23:57,470 --> 01:24:07,250
we came across terrible examples of where they just didn't talk to each other and therefore charities were being used for to bring in illicit wealth.

793
01:24:07,250 --> 01:24:13,010
I mean, they were bringing you really being used to to launder it, to launder money.

794
01:24:13,010 --> 01:24:17,690
So but there is a new chairman, so I'm going to meet other doctors better yet.

795
01:24:17,690 --> 01:24:23,300
But he's written to me, so I'm going to meet him. So we'll see whether he can make a difference.

796
01:24:23,300 --> 01:24:29,250
But I don't think there is a precedent for us. Are you looking forward to meeting the new chairman?

797
01:24:29,250 --> 01:24:34,010
I'm not. I can't immediately think who the person is.

798
01:24:34,010 --> 01:24:40,690
I mean, I think I think the answer is the Charge Commission has a whole series of its own problems, but it does do more investigation.

799
01:24:40,690 --> 01:24:46,110
Companies have to do any investigation really at all. Thank you, Andy.

800
01:24:46,110 --> 01:24:55,560
And we're getting to the end of our session. I have a final question for both speakers to bring the question closer to us here at

801
01:24:55,560 --> 01:25:00,200
University of the Oxford Martin School is a very special venue in the university,

802
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:05,540
but also aloof from some of the university realities.

803
01:25:05,540 --> 01:25:12,440
But the question I have to ask you is much of what we discussed here today had to do with illicit financial flows,

804
01:25:12,440 --> 01:25:22,010
with money laundering and with the metropolitan service providers that that due to these that facilitate this process.

805
01:25:22,010 --> 01:25:26,750
But at the end of that spectrum, after the money has been laundered and rendered legitimate,

806
01:25:26,750 --> 01:25:32,330
there is a process of reputation laundering, which is embodied in many forms.

807
01:25:32,330 --> 01:25:36,740
I mentioned earlier philanthropy to museums, cultural institutions,

808
01:25:36,740 --> 01:25:44,600
but also knowledge production institutions and universities obviously loom large until 15 years ago.

809
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:49,220
This would have little much larger in the US context than in the UK context.

810
01:25:49,220 --> 01:25:53,180
But in recent years, this has become a question that we, as academics,

811
01:25:53,180 --> 01:25:59,240
also have to tackle as it were at the end of that spectrum that you've been discussing throughout this event.

812
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:04,970
You're looking at us from the outside, you're looking at us from from Westminster.

813
01:26:04,970 --> 01:26:11,240
What thoughts do you have about that, that dimension in the cultural and education sectors?

814
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:12,450
I think there is a real.

815
01:26:12,450 --> 01:26:21,500
I think the academic academia has to think very carefully and we know actually we know it, you know, it goes into the school sector.

816
01:26:21,500 --> 01:26:29,300
There are a lot of schools that are accepting illicit finance. It goes, it goes into the arts.

817
01:26:29,300 --> 01:26:33,230
It's all over as they try and accuse a lot of this.

818
01:26:33,230 --> 01:26:39,950
The the purveyors of illicit finance trying get credibility and influence goes into our football clubs.

819
01:26:39,950 --> 01:26:44,390
You know, it goes all over the place. So I think I think the university sector has got to think hard.

820
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:51,590
You've got to think hard. You have a moral duty and academic freedom ought to be something that you hold dear.

821
01:26:51,590 --> 01:26:55,470
And my experience has not been an easy one.

822
01:26:55,470 --> 01:27:06,530
So, so male college Cambridge, where I'm a fellow, has taken money from Chinese private sector interests and has got into Charles.

823
01:27:06,530 --> 01:27:11,270
Moore writes about it every week in The Spectator, and it's sort of got a life lesson.

824
01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:15,140
And the college never concealed anything, really.

825
01:27:15,140 --> 01:27:23,480
So I think it's all a bit unfair. But the answer to your question seems to me to be again, once again, transparency and openness and being a Tory.

826
01:27:23,480 --> 01:27:30,170
I want to impose that judgement on the on the educational entity receiving the money that it should be

827
01:27:30,170 --> 01:27:35,360
open and they must then decide whether they're happy to defend it to all their different stakeholders.

828
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:41,760
And that seems to me that's the way. Can I just end with one story which I think just brings together the complexity of all of this?

829
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:53,300
It's my favourite story on this, on this thing. And I was told about a very senior American expert in tackling corruption who

830
01:27:53,300 --> 01:27:59,030
was persuaded to come and speak to the most senior people in Afghanistan.

831
01:27:59,030 --> 01:28:08,600
This is obviously before the Taliban took over, and he was persuaded to go because he was told that all the people there who were law enforcers

832
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:14,120
would be there and they want him to come and give a lecture to them on how to tackle corruption.

833
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:18,380
And he he agreed to do it. No fee flew to Afghanistan,

834
01:28:18,380 --> 01:28:26,630
went to Kabul magnificent theatre with all these people there who turned up to hear him tell them how to tackle corruption.

835
01:28:26,630 --> 01:28:33,530
And as he was delivering his talk, he looked on the front row and he realised almost everyone had a large Rolex watch.

836
01:28:33,530 --> 01:28:37,580
And he looked around and saw what point they were taking notes about what he was saying.

837
01:28:37,580 --> 01:28:44,360
And suddenly, to his horror, he realised that he fled halfway around the world to brief the people on what they had

838
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:49,890
to combat and get run from those who were enforcing law and order on anti-corruption.

839
01:28:49,890 --> 01:28:54,920
And I think it's a I think it's such an interesting story. It shows you are really difficult and complex.

840
01:28:54,920 --> 01:29:00,170
All this stuff is. Margaret Hodge Andrew Mitchell, Thanks so much for this brilliant event.

841
01:29:00,170 --> 01:29:14,527
Please join me in thanking our.