1 00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:04,889 Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Charles Godfrey. I'm the director of the Martha School. 2 00:00:04,890 --> 00:00:14,280 And welcome to the Martin School. The Martin School was set up nearly 20 years ago now by a very generous donation by Jim Martin. 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:20,730 And I'm delighted to say that Jim's widow, Lilian, and her daughter Jaron, are in the audience with us this afternoon. 4 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:31,260 So on behalf of all of us, Lillian, thank you. And it is wonderful today to welcome Adomah Day and to the Martin School, 5 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:40,020 who will be talking with Andrew Thompson on the subject of the United Nations and the prevention of mass atrocities in the 21st century. 6 00:00:40,020 --> 00:00:48,450 Some challenges and opportunities. Adomah has the most distinguished career as an international jurist. 7 00:00:49,650 --> 00:00:57,060 He was registrar of the U.N. International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and was UN Under-Secretary-General 8 00:00:57,270 --> 00:01:03,270 and Special Adviser to the Secretary-General on the Prevention of Genocide and did many, 9 00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:09,389 many other things in the in addition to that and the Thomas in the country at the 10 00:01:09,390 --> 00:01:15,240 moment to launch the Global Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking, 11 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:25,440 which is being chaired by Theresa may, and Adam is the Deputy Chairman and the Donald will be in conversation with Andrew Thomson. 12 00:01:25,830 --> 00:01:32,580 Andy is a professor of global and imperial history here in the Oxford, very distinguished career as well. 13 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:41,430 He's a fellow of Nuffield and I'm delighted to say that he's copied on the Oxford Martin School programme on changing global orders. 14 00:01:41,850 --> 00:01:47,160 And then at the end we'll have a comment and vote of thanks from Valerie. 15 00:01:47,220 --> 00:01:53,450 Baroness Amos. Valerie was Secretary of State in the Labour Government. 16 00:01:53,460 --> 00:02:03,240 The Secretary of State for Overseas Development has also been an Under Secretary General at the UN for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief, 17 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:09,420 Coordination, coordination. And at the moment Valerie is master of Unit for the University College here. 18 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:14,879 So with no further ado, let me hand over to Andrew. Okay. 19 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,510 So Adam, I think I'm going to give you a talk first and I'm going to. 20 00:02:23,190 --> 00:02:32,399 Thank you very much, Andrew. First of what I would like to say how delighted time to see my good friend and sister, 21 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:39,630 Valerie Amos, who, despite her busy schedules, decided to come and join us this evening. 22 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:51,960 But the greatest surprise is this gentleman just in front of me, Steve Roth, who, as you may know, he's the one who prosecuted the trial. 23 00:02:52,470 --> 00:03:01,950 And Steve was with me and I was the deputy prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. 24 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,610 So what a surprise to you. Thank you very much for joining us. 25 00:03:06,090 --> 00:03:13,799 So, colleagues, friends, members of the academic community, it is really, I would say, 26 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:23,250 an honour and a great privilege for me to reflect with you this evening on this important topic. 27 00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:29,280 On the role of the United Nations in the prevention of genocide in the 21st century. 28 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:40,799 I believe that there is no better place to discuss these issues than at the stellar institution with a rich 29 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:49,650 history where both students and academics continue to engage in cutting edge research and scholarship, 30 00:03:50,190 --> 00:03:57,000 which has immensely contributed to the work of the United Nations in the prevention of mass atrocities. 31 00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:10,560 And I'm proud of what academic institutions like Oxford are doing to contribute to a more peaceful and prosperous world through academic work. 32 00:04:11,470 --> 00:04:20,760 Yes, recently there was a very important report which was launched from New York and was co-authored by Andrew, 33 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:25,440 which I share immediately with Secretary Gutierrez, 34 00:04:25,770 --> 00:04:28,829 but also with the chairperson of the African Union, 35 00:04:28,830 --> 00:04:34,920 as well as with the president of synagogue where I come from, because it was a very challenging report. 36 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:43,020 But it is not the subject of our discussion today. But I just mentioned it for you to make sure that you read that report. 37 00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:52,170 But now coming to the topic, let me just remind that the involvement of the United Nations in genocide prevention 38 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:59,970 can be traced way back to efforts undertaken in the aftermath of the Second World War. 39 00:05:00,690 --> 00:05:07,350 Mindful of the tragic failure of the League of Nations to stop the Second World War. 40 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:17,940 The UN was therefore created to ensure that atrocious events witnessed during the war do not happen again. 41 00:05:18,390 --> 00:05:26,760 You are all very familiar with the motto Never again, but unfortunately never again turn to become time and again. 42 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:27,750 Time and again. 43 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:40,980 And it was in fulfilment of this commitment that one day before the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on the 9th of December, 44 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:49,320 the General Assembly adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. 45 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:58,170 And while this decision may be symbolic of adopting it just ahead of the 10th of December, 46 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:08,670 it reaffirmed the gravity of the crime and the commitment of the international community to ensure its prevention and punishment. 47 00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:12,410 The importance of this convention is to promote. 48 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:23,560 Firstly, it designates genocide as a crime against international law, whether committed in times of war or in times of peace. 49 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,350 And secondly, the convention defines what constitutes genocide. 50 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:42,910 However, unlike any other human rights treaty, the Genocide Convention did not establish a specific monitoring body or expert committee. 51 00:06:43,540 --> 00:06:55,870 It is this letter aspect which has challenged the international commitment to effectively implement this convention since its adoption. 52 00:06:56,500 --> 00:07:02,950 And it was not until the early nineties, four decades after its adoption, 53 00:07:03,580 --> 00:07:11,710 that the Genocide Convention was invoked to address the aftermath of the bloodshed in Rwanda and in the Balkans. 54 00:07:12,610 --> 00:07:22,240 Through Resolution 820 7/1993 and 9559 1894, 55 00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:31,990 the UN Security Council invoked the Genocide Convention to set up the ICC Y and the ICC are 56 00:07:32,650 --> 00:07:41,140 to punish those who bear greatest responsibilities for crimes committed in these territories. 57 00:07:42,110 --> 00:07:53,960 This invocation was significant, mainly because it reaffirmed the inherent duty of states to punish the crime of genocide. 58 00:07:55,170 --> 00:08:06,940 Even in the Balkans and the implosion. Of Rwanda are constant reminders to the international community that catastrophic 59 00:08:06,940 --> 00:08:14,200 failure to intervene to protect civilians from atrocities entailed high costs, 60 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:22,000 often paid for in the currency of lives lost and nation destroyed, 61 00:08:22,870 --> 00:08:29,650 that the international community failed to intervene to prevent genocide in both countries, 62 00:08:30,460 --> 00:08:36,640 yet managed to set up judicial institutions to punish those responsible. 63 00:08:37,450 --> 00:08:45,160 This reaffirms the relevance and importance of this convention decades after its adoption. 64 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:53,490 For those who have been keen to follow the work of ICI, t, r and ICI too closely. 65 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:58,229 You all know that the ICG. I had the privilege, of course, 66 00:08:58,230 --> 00:09:10,410 to serve as the Registrar will agree with me that these two ad hoc tribunals during that existence ran the ground breaking 67 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:20,070 decisions and contributed to a jurisprudence which used implication on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide. 68 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:27,570 I would say that all the judicial institutions, of course, 69 00:09:27,930 --> 00:09:36,540 were set up focusing on punishing the perpetrators of crimes of genocide and other atrocity crimes. 70 00:09:36,930 --> 00:09:44,910 And to my point, I would mention by way of example, the establishment of the extraordinary, 71 00:09:45,060 --> 00:09:51,240 extraordinary chambers in the court of Cambodia, the Special Tribunal for Sierra Leone, 72 00:09:51,810 --> 00:09:56,130 Special Court for Lebanon, and the Permanent International Criminal Court, 73 00:09:56,580 --> 00:10:05,430 all reaffirm unwavering commitment of the international community to fight impunity in all its full. 74 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,490 Ladies and gentlemen, dear friends, 75 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:19,570 while it is worthwhile to acknowledge that the existence of an international or regional framework on genocide prevention is crucial, 76 00:10:20,170 --> 00:10:34,390 it is equally important to recognise that we can effectively address genocide by adopting preventive measures to prevent it from taking place. 77 00:10:35,020 --> 00:10:39,490 Indeed, since the Rwanda and the Balkans tragedy, 78 00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:51,940 and I should even say I should be saying since the crimes committed in Rwanda and in Srebrenica, because this is not a tragedy, it is a crime. 79 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,810 And I think that should be really underline. 80 00:10:56,410 --> 00:11:03,070 Since that time, the international community has focussed its effort on preventive measures. 81 00:11:03,850 --> 00:11:16,270 And in the wake of the 1999 report of the independent inquiry into the United Nations, failure to prevent or halt the Rwanda genocide, 82 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:24,550 the report was generally critical of the role of the UN and the international community at large. 83 00:11:25,330 --> 00:11:34,479 The overall conclusion of the report noted that the failure of the United Nations to prevent and 84 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:41,110 subsequently to stop the genocide in Rwanda was a failure by the United Nations as a whole. 85 00:11:41,950 --> 00:11:51,880 Clearly, this was an indictment of the international community in its entirety, which required an international response. 86 00:11:53,050 --> 00:11:55,600 As a response to this failure. 87 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:04,390 In 2004, the secretary general proposed the creation of the Office of the Special Adviser for the Prevention of Genocide, 88 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,250 the key function of the special adviser, 89 00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:20,830 where envisaged to include the collection of existing information on massive and serious violations of human rights, 90 00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:27,160 which, if not prevented or halted, might lead to genocide. 91 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:37,810 Acting as a catalyst of early warning to the Secretary-General and the Security Council on potential situations that could result into genocide, 92 00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:51,400 making recommendations on action to prevent or halt genocide and lies with the United Nations system and activities for the prevention of genocide. 93 00:12:52,000 --> 00:13:02,830 However, the role of the Special Adviser is not to make a determination whether genocide has occurred or not. 94 00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:14,170 Rather, his or her role is to enable the international community to act in a timely manner, and thus NFP, 95 00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:21,890 after months of genocide and following up this initiative of the Secretary General at that time. 96 00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:32,740 Kofi Annan in 2005, the international community brought through the World Summit outcome document reaffirming 97 00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:40,030 the role of the international community to protect civilians at risk of genocide. 98 00:13:41,050 --> 00:13:49,510 This recognition concretised the belief that while states have an inherent duty to protect their citizens, 99 00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:57,370 not all states are capable and willing to offer protection to their people. 100 00:13:57,910 --> 00:14:08,500 It was therefore essential for the international community to create a framework for greater involvement in protecting populations at risk. 101 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:20,920 The aforementioned framework represent what is collectively known as the responsibility to protect the ATA P, 102 00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:32,230 which is an evolving concept that addresses the failure of states where the unwilling or unable to protect their citizens. 103 00:14:32,740 --> 00:14:41,410 That what is novel about r t is that it challenges the primacy of state sovereignty 104 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:49,810 by shifting focus from rights of states towards the rights of victims of atrocities, 105 00:14:50,350 --> 00:14:57,310 and by endorsing the responsibility of states to protect civilians at risk. 106 00:14:57,820 --> 00:15:07,870 It is evident that the international community was reaffirming the fact that sovereignty is responsibility. 107 00:15:08,380 --> 00:15:12,460 It entails the state obligation towards its people. 108 00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:20,940 But despite ongoing recognition of this responsibility to protect populations from atrocities, 109 00:15:21,630 --> 00:15:35,100 we must acknowledge that conflict dynamics and I mentioned are evolving into a rather complex and unpredictable situations. 110 00:15:35,790 --> 00:15:43,170 Today, states are no longer an exclusive source of authorities and political power. 111 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:54,630 Today. Armed groups are increasingly capable of unleashing brutal violence on a scale before unimaginable. 112 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:06,030 Today, we are seeing conflict in remote parts of the world in influence and supply with weapon from far away actors. 113 00:16:06,930 --> 00:16:14,310 Reality is the UN must evolve and adapt to these new developments. 114 00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:21,499 The United Nations must send an unmistakeable message to all parties involved in 115 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:29,960 conflict that violence of any kind as a tool to resolve differences is unacceptable. 116 00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:38,420 Those who instigate support or indeed bankroll violence will be punished. 117 00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:49,079 It is regrettable that state representative often interpret meetings with especially the special adviser 118 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:57,960 on the prevention of genocide as suggesting that genocide is present or imminent in their countries, 119 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:02,580 which result in defensive behaviour. 120 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:05,100 And that is my good friend. 121 00:17:05,820 --> 00:17:16,530 Mendez was reminding that while early warning is an essential part of the work of the special adviser on the prevention of genocide, 122 00:17:17,190 --> 00:17:24,660 it could also be interpreted as prematurely alarmist and raised concern about 123 00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:31,500 interference in the internal affairs of by by the international community. 124 00:17:32,010 --> 00:17:42,380 And he said it radically and I quote. Because Mendez was the first half time special advisor at the rank of ASG. 125 00:17:43,370 --> 00:17:56,000 If I wait until all the elements of genocide are in place according to international law, then by definition I have not prevented. 126 00:17:57,570 --> 00:18:05,220 This also relates to which states the special advisers highlight in their early warning. 127 00:18:06,290 --> 00:18:12,770 There have also been differences of opinion between different special advisers on this issue. 128 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,869 I'm saying advisers because and I'll come back later to the special adviser 129 00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:22,460 on the prevention of genocide and the one on the responsibility to protect. 130 00:18:22,910 --> 00:18:29,810 And while some prefer maybe to be more cautious and act in line with the rest of the UN system, 131 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:41,660 following the imperative to speak with one voice, others feel that it is incumbent on their mandate to air on the side of caution. 132 00:18:42,020 --> 00:18:54,589 I don't know where I was place, but I can I call on Valerie Amos here who witness it at a time, even in her office. 133 00:18:54,590 --> 00:19:08,270 Also, as some of her staff were very, let's say, reluctant to engage with my staff because they felt that that may undermine their work. 134 00:19:08,780 --> 00:19:19,910 But when I raised that issue with Valerie at the end of one of our senior management group, immediately upon her return to her office, 135 00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:27,200 she instructed her staff to work closely with the staff of the special adviser on the prevention of genocide. 136 00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:32,780 Thank you very much. Again, because you up and at that time really thought which was close. 137 00:19:33,410 --> 00:19:40,190 So this is simply to say that we have a long way to go. 138 00:19:40,460 --> 00:19:50,780 And what I said about this, my friend Francis Deng, who was the first, I would say, special advisers at the rank of USG and the secretary general, 139 00:19:51,170 --> 00:19:59,120 he also had to complain because he was saying that even some colleagues within the U.N. system, 140 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:07,430 when he comes in with his title, Genocide Prevention, would think that he is complicating their lives. 141 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:19,520 And therefore, he had seen in a number of situations the first line of resistance, which is coming from our own people, 142 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:33,680 from people of the U.N. system, this that, as they say, someone like Valerie, really easy move that that obstacle as far as I was concerned. 143 00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:46,640 And the last example I would give was about at lack may his soul rest in peace and lack was the special adviser on RTP. 144 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:58,999 And he noted that during his term of office, he frequently experienced that warnings from U.N. headquarters to parties in a 145 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,600 conflict about behaviour that was troubling from an atrocity prevention perspective. 146 00:21:06,110 --> 00:21:15,530 We are sometimes seen by Special Representative of the Secretary-General in the field and official at the Department of Political Affairs in New York, 147 00:21:15,890 --> 00:21:19,280 as too pointed or untimely, 148 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:21,470 and in many such a situation, 149 00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:33,260 the Department of Political Affairs take the lead and or the U.N. bodies have to fall in line so that the U.N. can speak with one voice. 150 00:21:33,740 --> 00:21:44,840 So unfortunately, prioritising impartiality and humanitarian access often translate into maintaining good 151 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:51,560 relations with government that may be appropriating mass atrocities against their population. 152 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:58,189 And this was seen in the U.N. secretariat response to the increased violence 153 00:21:58,190 --> 00:22:06,200 against civilians in the final stage of the civil war in Sri Lanka in 2008 2009. 154 00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:20,000 Despite early warning by the special advisers, a decision was taken to frame the situation as a humanitarian emergency, 155 00:22:20,780 --> 00:22:29,780 with the Emergency Relief Coordinator and the Office of Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs also put in charge. 156 00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:43,970 And we see that I argued before we are moving decisively towards a new age of sovereignty as a responsibility. 157 00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:53,600 We are slowly but resolutely heading towards an era where those who commit atrocities, 158 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,450 those who violate human rights of their people, will be held accountable. 159 00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:13,130 While accountability may take time, the growing voices of civil societies, independent actors, unmatched technology advancement, among other factors, 160 00:23:13,610 --> 00:23:26,750 will continue to contribute to the collection and preservation of critical information to hold to account those who commit these atrocities. 161 00:23:27,410 --> 00:23:36,410 While it is evident that accountability for the sake of it will not prevent genocide and atrocity crime immediately, 162 00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:43,640 it is no less true that the possibility that any perpetrators of such crimes, 163 00:23:44,150 --> 00:23:52,040 regardless of who they are, will be held to account, significantly influences their actions. 164 00:23:52,820 --> 00:23:57,710 So with the various tragedies unfolding before our eyes, 165 00:23:58,580 --> 00:24:08,450 the obvious question that stands out is how are we prepared to respond to events such as those in Sudan? 166 00:24:09,610 --> 00:24:23,980 Clearly, Sudan isn't the litmus test for the international community, but most importantly to the Security Council and indeed the African Union. 167 00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:38,960 And till today, the Security Council has failed to speak with one unequivocal voice against the actions of both parties to the conflict. 168 00:24:39,530 --> 00:24:50,360 But more crucial to take decisive steps to protect civilians who continue to face the brutal nature of this senseless conflict. 169 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:56,120 When I met with General Abraham and General Hemmati, I made it very clear. 170 00:24:56,540 --> 00:25:01,400 I said, Where is Al Bashir? He is today in the darkness. 171 00:25:02,180 --> 00:25:05,240 And is it that future you want for yourself? 172 00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:11,210 This was before the war started between those two factions last April. 173 00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:23,060 So I think the council must provide a moral and political leadership to stop ongoing violence in Sudan today. 174 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:29,120 And this is because within the ambit of the current charter, 175 00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:38,870 it is only the Security Council which wields ultimate power and indeed political duty and 176 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:46,130 moral responsibility to address challenges with international peace and security dimension. 177 00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:52,910 And as such, the message coming from the Security Council more than anything else, 178 00:25:53,300 --> 00:26:04,610 will continue to determine the extent to which we can save and protect lives of vulnerable populations at risk of genocide. 179 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:16,610 I do believe that we have adequate international legal framework to address events such as those unfolding in Sudan and elsewhere. 180 00:26:17,550 --> 00:26:19,860 What is urgently required, 181 00:26:20,610 --> 00:26:32,610 but which is critically lacking is the political courage and leadership of the Security Council to overcome divisions in its ranks, 182 00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:39,810 to fulfil its role and perform its duty as enshrined in the UN Charter. 183 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:52,979 In my concluding remark, allow me to note that the failure of the Council should not be equated with the failure of the concept of responsibility 184 00:26:52,980 --> 00:27:01,380 to protect or the commitment of the United Nations and the Secretary General in particular to address these challenges. 185 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:13,410 Rather, these failures should be seen and address within the ongoing debate of the United Nations reforms and especially the Security Council. 186 00:27:14,130 --> 00:27:23,130 As events in Libya demonstrated when the Council is united and willing to overcome these differences. 187 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:32,310 It is more likely to forge a consensus to protect population likely to fall prey to genocide. 188 00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:45,810 It is therefore, in recognition of these political realities that the United Nations must continue to evolve and adapt to the new realities. 189 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:57,240 Multiplications of actors competing for legitimacy and power will certainly continue to challenge and 190 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:08,580 influence how and in what context the UN responds to the prevention and punishment of mass atrocities, 191 00:28:08,970 --> 00:28:19,830 especially when the UN itself lacks unity among its ranks on how to address such challenges. 192 00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:27,120 I also believe that considering the importance of growing role of technology in our today world, 193 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:38,130 the United Nations must continue to make full use of global technology to prevent how to benefit our preventive efforts, 194 00:28:38,490 --> 00:28:47,130 especially in the collection and preservation of key information for future accountability. 195 00:28:47,610 --> 00:29:03,150 I thank you for your time. Attention. Adam, thank you very much. 196 00:29:03,810 --> 00:29:08,940 Characteristically, for those of us who know you eloquent and forthright in equal measure, 197 00:29:10,260 --> 00:29:14,700 the audience is going to have some opportunity to ask you questions in a few minutes. 198 00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:20,580 But I have the opportunity to ask you some questions before that. 199 00:29:21,030 --> 00:29:27,780 And I thought I would ask you some sort of biographical questions to give the room a sense of you as a person, 200 00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:35,670 because I think probably the audience is going to ask some questions by way of a follow up to your talk. 201 00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:49,050 So I want to take you back to that young Senegalese lawyer who would eventually become registrar of the Supreme Court of Senegal for six years, 202 00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:53,400 I think in the late 1970s and early 1980s. 203 00:29:53,970 --> 00:29:58,920 What drew you to a legal career and specifically what drew you to human rights law? 204 00:29:59,460 --> 00:30:02,760 Well, I would say that I thank my father. 205 00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:06,750 My father was a concierge at the harbour. 206 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:14,280 He never went to school. But he was very much attached to justice. 207 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:27,160 And as a concierge, he came to know our first chief justice is that Foster, who later become, as you know, at the International Court of Justice. 208 00:30:28,220 --> 00:30:32,660 And he's three. My dad was that I'd become a judge. 209 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,850 That was his dream. So that is what really took me in that field. 210 00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:48,830 May his soul rest in peace. I'm sure that if he was still alive, he would have been so pleased to see that, though I did not become a judge. 211 00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:52,550 But I fought for what he strongly. 212 00:30:53,310 --> 00:31:07,680 Believe. Justice. I fought for what he strongly believe that we cannot remain passive when perpetrators of serious crimes are walking free. 213 00:31:08,130 --> 00:31:13,320 So fighting against impunity was really what took me in that area. 214 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:27,000 But then, of course, later, when it related to human rights, I was privy, working with the then chief justice, KIPP Bombay, who's well known. 215 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:33,420 He was the one who conceived to develop the concept of the right to development. 216 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:42,150 You know, because at the end of the day, coming from the Global South cap and what I called his disciple, 217 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:49,100 we came to the conclusion that the politic civil political rights are important. 218 00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:55,890 The economic social rights are also important. These rights are independent, inseparable, indivisible. 219 00:31:56,430 --> 00:32:04,980 But on top of that, we felt that there was solid solidarity of rights which needed to be reflected. 220 00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:12,450 And that is how the African Charter on Human and People's Rights was the first instrument to 221 00:32:13,470 --> 00:32:19,530 recognise the right to development as a human rights and to recognise also the right to peace. 222 00:32:19,950 --> 00:32:23,040 So this is more or less what put me in that area. 223 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,230 And so many people in the room will know if your work through what you did at the United Nations. 224 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:37,670 But of course when you moved out of Senegal, it wasn't straight to the UN, it was to an organisation that you mentioned in your talk, 225 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,940 and I think I very rarely heard you talk and not mention this organisation, 226 00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:46,290 so I know it's important to you as you joined the International Commission of Jurists 227 00:32:46,290 --> 00:32:51,690 and eventually came to serve as its Secretary-General for a decade in the 1990s. 228 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:59,760 And I think you are awarded a prestigious and the ICJ human rights prize at that time. 229 00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:05,340 And I wonder if you could just tell us why that prize was important, but I think more broadly. 230 00:33:06,670 --> 00:33:12,160 How formative that decade was leading the ICJ for what you went on to do. 231 00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:19,540 How did it shape you as a as a diplomat and prepare you for then what came next to the UN? 232 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:31,150 Well, being here in the UK, I cannot but really pay tribute to my predecessor at the ICJ, the late Neil McDermott. 233 00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:42,760 My grandmother was a former minister in the UK government at that time when he succeeded MacBride as a regional special commission jury. 234 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:50,080 It was a very difficult time and I was definitely trained by Neil McDermott. 235 00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:53,680 But like I said, I cannot really pay tribute to this great man. 236 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:05,240 But the nineties, the period during those ten years, the ICJ was, as you know, instrument to develop many instrument. 237 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:14,490 And I was reminded recently to a young people, young people in Dakar, 238 00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:25,380 that when we had the Vienna Congress in human Rights, I was trumpeting along the walls of the Vienna Congress. 239 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:35,720 That time has come ready to establish a permanent international criminal court to bring to an end impunity. 240 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:43,840 Before, I just organise it and collect them on. No to infinity. 241 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:52,240 Yes to justice. It was very difficult to convince at that time the delegates in Vienna. 242 00:34:52,780 --> 00:35:00,670 Finally, they accepted a small reference to the call I was making, and I was late in the night. 243 00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:10,900 But also most importantly during that period was a convention to fight corruption in Africa. 244 00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:19,060 Why in Africa? Because I came to get something at the U.N. Human Rights Commission. 245 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:25,810 Although at the subcommittee, the members accepted the proposal I made. 246 00:35:26,050 --> 00:35:36,610 It was a resolution on the fraudulent infringement of state official detrimental to the public interest, meaning simply corruption. 247 00:35:37,410 --> 00:35:44,620 That was the time that many people like the late Mobutu, to, you know, spoiling the resources. 248 00:35:45,310 --> 00:35:52,010 But let's remember. Where you have corrupt people, you have corrupt. 249 00:35:52,190 --> 00:35:57,260 Also the characters from the North, the corrupt from the South. 250 00:35:57,590 --> 00:36:00,590 So if you have, you have to address that issue. 251 00:36:01,430 --> 00:36:10,760 The subcommittee then forwarded the resolution to the Human Rights Commission, but then it was defeated by the United States and Japan. 252 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:18,830 They felt that this is not the human rights issue and should be dealt with by the U.N. crime branch in Vietnam. 253 00:36:19,610 --> 00:36:29,600 So out of frustration, I spoke with as the legal counsel of the World Bank at that time. 254 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:40,160 But I shot back with the legal council and vice president said, Well, Adam, I sympathise with you, but the banks don't deal with these issues. 255 00:36:40,820 --> 00:36:45,600 And that is the late Babacan, who was president of the African Development Bank, who said, No, 256 00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:52,760 I have no problem, because basically I was saying I don't need a pen, I just need to have the bank's name. 257 00:36:53,630 --> 00:37:03,800 Because the idea was to show that corruption was the major obstacle to the enjoyment of economic and social rights, 258 00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:07,190 because the billions which are being stolen, 259 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:16,730 you know, could be used to make sure that people have access to education, access to health, access to water, etc., etc. 260 00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:27,680 So finally, we had that meeting in Abidjan, and that is where comes the resolution in 1998. 261 00:37:27,740 --> 00:37:38,270 Abdi cannot force this summit of the way you follow in which Dr. Salim Ahmed Salim was then the secretary general asking me to. 262 00:37:39,140 --> 00:37:52,730 Prepared a study on corruption in Africa legal economic implication and put draft to submit a first draft convention to fight corruption. 263 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,740 So this to me, was one of the greatest achievement. 264 00:37:58,190 --> 00:38:04,410 Yet we are still facing corruption, but at least the issue is no longer top. 265 00:38:05,420 --> 00:38:08,780 So probably just one more question for me and we'll open up to the audience. 266 00:38:08,780 --> 00:38:21,210 But fast forward to 2001. I think you're about oh, had just been appointed about to be appointed as the Senegalese ambassador to Paris. 267 00:38:22,180 --> 00:38:31,870 And then Kofi Annan approaches you to ask you to be the registrar of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. 268 00:38:33,340 --> 00:38:40,360 You're immediately faced with a whole raft of challenges. You've got nine international judges that you've got to weld together as a team. 269 00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:47,690 You've got to make sure Rwandan people have your confidence and that justice is really going to be delivered. 270 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:55,380 You had the acquitted people sometimes forget those and finding a home for those and I suppose a whole raft of other things besides. 271 00:38:56,010 --> 00:39:03,420 What was it that you know, how did you rise to that challenge and what did that challenge involve of putting the tribunal on a stable 272 00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:10,260 footing in those first couple of years in which people could have confidence in and which had legitimacy? 273 00:39:10,620 --> 00:39:22,799 Well, it was on the eve of Christmas in 2000 when Hans Corell, the then legal counsel of the United Nations, called me and said, 274 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:35,010 Well, I remember and I want you to be the registrar of the ICC, are at the level of assistant secretary general. 275 00:39:35,010 --> 00:39:42,930 And as you said, I said, Well, I'm sorry, Hans, I'm about to pop and to take my position as ambassador. 276 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,990 And Hans said to me, Look, Adam, you can become ambassador at any time. 277 00:39:49,710 --> 00:39:53,250 That's Sector has been searching for someone. 278 00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:58,050 And everywhere he goes, everyone asks, your name was coming. 279 00:39:58,980 --> 00:40:07,010 So I said, okay, give me time. So I said, No, no, it's and the situation is right now in Beijing waiting for it. 280 00:40:07,010 --> 00:40:13,010 And I said, No, I can't. So we agreed that 48 hours later I will come back to. 281 00:40:13,950 --> 00:40:19,410 And then when I called Justice Bombay, I said, Well, what should I do? 282 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:26,730 He said, Well, you have to, but it's your life to fight impunity for your life for human rights. 283 00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:30,970 As the young people say in Paris, your future. 284 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,460 And this is an expression that is no, you have to accept. 285 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,659 That's how I came. I came at a time I don't know. I don't know if you had that. 286 00:40:39,660 --> 00:40:52,770 At the time. The tribunal was facing many challenges, and particularly, as you say, difficult relationship between the president and the registrar, 287 00:40:53,130 --> 00:41:02,940 but may be, thank God, as I had the experience working with judges, I think that helped me a lot. 288 00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:10,650 My predecessor did a tremendous work. Justice O'Connor but maybe he did not have that same advantage I had. 289 00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:16,980 And from day one I established a very smooth relationship with the President. 290 00:41:17,340 --> 00:41:22,710 I made sure that once a week we sit in, have room. 291 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,810 At the time, that was my assistant, Navi Pillay, who later became High Commissioner for Human Rights. 292 00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:34,140 We will see, even if there is no problem, we'll have our cup of tea and and so that helped a lot. 293 00:41:34,830 --> 00:41:47,610 And that was also many challenges because that was there was a time the victims in Rwanda decided to boycott the tribunal, 294 00:41:48,660 --> 00:41:52,710 but also the defence launch was also movement. 295 00:41:52,720 --> 00:42:01,230 But that was a time really where both sides were suspicious about this tribunal. 296 00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:09,050 First of all, you know, the government of Rwanda was not very pleased with the fact that the tribunal was located in Abuja. 297 00:42:09,390 --> 00:42:17,310 They wanted the tribunal to be in Kigali. Another problem they had also at the time was that our book did not include death penalty. 298 00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:20,430 And they wanted, of course, death penalty, but. 299 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:33,240 The tribunal managed. Starting from the first conviction of a young commander who was the then prime minister of the genocide regime, 300 00:42:34,110 --> 00:42:38,099 followed by many or important decision. 301 00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:52,050 And I referred to the accused to decision detriment, which in fact equated rape committed under certain circumstances as genocide. 302 00:42:52,440 --> 00:43:00,540 And also, I would say another important one was the immediate trial, which my friend Steve prosecuted. 303 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,350 And I always mentioned, 304 00:43:04,530 --> 00:43:17,070 even these days that we have to go back to the media judgement because this was the first time that journalist was put in the dock, 305 00:43:17,340 --> 00:43:21,080 because in Nuremberg we had of course, but this was not the same that. 306 00:43:21,810 --> 00:43:28,830 And when we see the rise of hate speech today around the world, it started from the United States, 307 00:43:28,830 --> 00:43:34,950 particularly during the Trump days with Steve Bannon and caused and in fact, 308 00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:46,590 I was saying that while the U.N. principles were enjoying the summer before the the conference on the migrant, 309 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,800 those people were fuelling through the media all type of discourse. 310 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:59,900 And that led even some European government to back, you know, on this issue of the migrant. 311 00:43:59,940 --> 00:44:06,300 I remember in Belgium, I think that led even to the resignation and in Switzerland thought that we the rapporteur. 312 00:44:06,930 --> 00:44:14,100 So this is to say the danger of hate speech and we need to do something. 313 00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:23,159 And that's when Secretary General of terrorists asked me to lead a process which 314 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,920 ended with the adoption of a strategy and a plan of action to address hate speech. 315 00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:40,830 We have to do more. More. We have seen during the COVID 19 pandemic the rise of hate speech when people are being used as scapegoat. 316 00:44:41,130 --> 00:44:46,590 So I think that is something we have to. Thank you very much. I think this is our cue to let the audience have a go. 317 00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:52,590 So, okay, there's a hand straight up at the back. So can we go for that one where I come from? 318 00:44:52,920 --> 00:45:01,790 Yeah. Sorry. Could you put your hand? Thank you so much. 319 00:45:01,790 --> 00:45:07,240 And thank you so much for sharing insights from your amazing work on material. 320 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,990 Doctor Students researching the protection of civilians at University College. 321 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:24,620 And with the events unfolding in Gaza and Tel Aviv, I thought it was suitable to ask you what is currently happening inside your office at the moment. 322 00:45:25,490 --> 00:45:31,880 Are there and if mass atrocities are detected? 323 00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:42,470 What tools does your office have available to deal with the situation that we see unfolding in Gaza if the political promises are being delivered on? 324 00:45:42,860 --> 00:45:57,320 Thank you so much. Well, first of all, let me say that what is happening and to our eyes now in Gaza, in Israel, is very, very sad. 325 00:45:58,070 --> 00:46:07,220 I mean, we are counting hours after hours, innocent people who are being killed. 326 00:46:08,090 --> 00:46:21,350 And the lives of innocent people can be take like that the life of an innocent Palestinian, the life of an innocent Israeli are equal. 327 00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:28,230 And we need to make every effort to bring to an end the situation. 328 00:46:29,140 --> 00:46:40,650 But if you look the situation. This is a time for me to remind how important it is to build a strong peace. 329 00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:53,299 And I remember discussing with President Jemmy Carter that was in Minnesota during the Nobel Peace Prize forum and discussing with 330 00:46:53,300 --> 00:47:07,130 him something I just mentioned and was my when of my visit in Gaza those days when I saw the Palestinian workers going back to Gaza. 331 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,450 I mean, and it was very sad. 332 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:25,010 And that reminded me those days, what I call the apartheid system in South Africa, when the black workers were leaving Johannesburg, 333 00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:33,050 going back to Soweto, the then Israeli ambassador in Geneva was not happy and said, well, how can you listen to me? 334 00:47:33,590 --> 00:47:38,360 But Harris Publishers, you know, they didn't put it in the context. 335 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:45,580 And what I have said, I repeated again, that is what came to my mind immediately. 336 00:47:46,750 --> 00:47:50,670 But now what is happening today? Is it? 337 00:47:51,180 --> 00:47:55,380 Are we witnessing crimes against humanity? Are we missing war crimes? 338 00:47:56,780 --> 00:48:02,210 Are we can we speak about even some talking about genocide? 339 00:48:03,550 --> 00:48:16,900 I think what is important is first and foremost to give every chance to ensure that the civilian population are not being used as. 340 00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:23,240 Seems, you know, we have to ensure also that the disease, 341 00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:31,129 which has been apparently declared a disease of Gaza, be lifted because there are innocent people. 342 00:48:31,130 --> 00:48:43,560 I was just reading that this court is one of the Scottish ministers of Westminster family law travelled there to visit one of them and they met. 343 00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:47,389 They are now in this trouble. Who knows? 344 00:48:47,390 --> 00:48:51,290 I hope they will not die. I could have been there also because I'm. 345 00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:58,390 I'm planning to travel to. I was planning to travel early next year to the east. 346 00:48:58,430 --> 00:49:06,470 I am in my capacity as another the chair of the International Association for the Defence of Religious Freedom. 347 00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:19,100 But with this situation happens, I may certainly think twice before because I think time has come to put more pressure. 348 00:49:19,580 --> 00:49:26,690 That is why I do believe that the position taken by so far by some government, 349 00:49:27,020 --> 00:49:35,570 including President Biden, including the European saying, stating publicly that we are backing Israel. 350 00:49:36,510 --> 00:49:44,210 I mean, this is very complicated, but to me, I leave aside the political aspect, but let's focus. 351 00:49:44,220 --> 00:49:54,570 What can we do? To ensure that the innocent people, Israeli innocent people, Palestinian innocent people are not front and killed in this war. 352 00:49:55,050 --> 00:50:03,870 Let's make sure that those in Gaza have access to humanitarian assistance. 353 00:50:04,530 --> 00:50:20,160 It's very difficult that the bottom, of course, is we it is time to come to a solution to bring to an end this long ongoing crisis and violations. 354 00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:27,620 In. But it's coming. We need to see a solution. 355 00:50:27,620 --> 00:50:32,210 And there was a solution proposed the two state solution. 356 00:50:32,510 --> 00:50:35,630 And that is possible. Why not to do it? 357 00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:41,650 So there are many other certain interests which are. Pre-empting a solution. 358 00:50:42,750 --> 00:50:46,470 This time of what we have seen so far. 359 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:53,090 Apparently there are even more victims on the sides of the Israeli. 360 00:50:53,430 --> 00:51:03,810 I remember the first day when I was seeing it was very sad to be counting 200 victims on this side, 212 on the other side. 361 00:51:04,050 --> 00:51:05,490 Something which never happened. 362 00:51:05,940 --> 00:51:18,030 So let's avoid let's avoid dramatising further this situation, because already there are people referring to Iran backing. 363 00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:21,980 So let's not internationalise this. 364 00:51:22,860 --> 00:51:29,520 Let's make sure that these two parties I mean, Palestine, Israel, get a get around the table. 365 00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:33,570 Peace. There is nothing more precious than peace. 366 00:51:34,140 --> 00:51:37,370 You know, so we have a question right at the front here. 367 00:51:37,380 --> 00:51:45,420 But just before that, some asked, just to be clear for everyone in the room that Adam is step down as the special 368 00:51:45,420 --> 00:51:49,950 adviser and under-secretary-general for the Prevention of Genocide in 2020. 369 00:51:50,220 --> 00:51:55,110 So he's not speaking in that capacity. Next question, please. 370 00:51:55,950 --> 00:52:01,890 Adam, good to see you again. You can keep in my mind up right up to mass. 371 00:52:03,450 --> 00:52:06,060 I would like to ask you whether. 372 00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:19,260 Every affluent country in this world is currently being irresponsible with regard to the climate breakdown and ecosystems collapse, 373 00:52:19,710 --> 00:52:24,570 and that in fact every war is likely to be. 374 00:52:25,690 --> 00:52:28,960 A fight over ecological resources. 375 00:52:29,830 --> 00:52:40,000 And until we end, perhaps we need to redefine peace negotiations and make sure that Mother Nature has a seat at the table. 376 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:45,280 Otherwise, the normal meaning of peace is to go back to business as usual. 377 00:52:45,610 --> 00:52:48,910 But business as usual is ecocide at the moment. 378 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,100 But thank you very much for raising this issue. 379 00:52:53,110 --> 00:53:03,250 And as you may know, if there is one continent which sees polluting the less that is Africa. 380 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,810 Who are the those who are polluting the most? 381 00:53:09,700 --> 00:53:13,319 United States of America, China, etc. 382 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:20,810 Top End. You can well in European if you want, you could do that. 383 00:53:20,890 --> 00:53:26,230 If we had to put a ranking and who are suffering the most. 384 00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:30,110 That's the African. They have been suffering. 385 00:53:31,310 --> 00:53:36,020 From the time of the slavery, from the time of the trade. 386 00:53:36,770 --> 00:53:40,250 Then they went had their independence. 387 00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:45,470 But yet there are many of them. The independence is just like this. 388 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:50,480 I never condone coup d'etat, but there has been simply many coups. 389 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,320 Frustration of the people. What we need. 390 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,980 When it comes to the climate, We have seen what happened in 27 Sharm el Sheikh. 391 00:54:02,850 --> 00:54:10,080 They had finally given to extend by one day because they could not reach an agreement because of money. 392 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,240 And those who are polluting, refusing to put money. 393 00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:18,360 So they decided finally they reached an agreement. 394 00:54:18,810 --> 00:54:21,190 Let's see what's going to happen at 28. 395 00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:29,820 As a matter of fact, I'm facilitating a meeting of religious leaders on sixth and seventh November in Abu Dhabi, 396 00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:37,770 being organised by the Vatican Muslim Council of Elders, the 28th Presidency and Unit. 397 00:54:38,340 --> 00:54:43,950 Because the voice of the religious leaders, the good faith organisation, is very important. 398 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,560 This is a matter for everyone and we, as I said, African. 399 00:54:49,740 --> 00:54:53,370 We are victims. And what happening these days? 400 00:54:53,610 --> 00:54:56,970 Many conflicts, I believe very early about what is happening in Sudan. 401 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:07,770 Africa is the richest continent without foreign oil and the cobalt we are finding in DRC, we will not be able to use today these mobile phone. 402 00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:15,150 But yet. But yet we have seen leaders, Western leaders. 403 00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:22,770 Being engaged in corruption with African leaders I mentioned earlier Libya. 404 00:55:23,010 --> 00:55:29,309 But once the situation I had about Libya is when the Security Council authorised the 405 00:55:29,310 --> 00:55:37,350 native forces to bomb Libya so as to say to prevent protect the civilian population. 406 00:55:38,310 --> 00:55:40,889 What happened after? Nothing. 407 00:55:40,890 --> 00:55:48,450 And that's why at that time I advised visited the bank to make sure that in the next report we mentioned that the Security Council, 408 00:55:48,450 --> 00:55:56,820 whenever they decide to authorise the use of force in a particular country, invoking ought to be. 409 00:55:57,150 --> 00:56:01,110 They have also to think about what next after the intervention, 410 00:56:01,500 --> 00:56:08,400 because not having provided any room, we saw weapons moving all the way in the same region. 411 00:56:08,580 --> 00:56:18,060 And today, the same region is dominated by all these Islamist groups have even that is now present in that region. 412 00:56:18,510 --> 00:56:21,510 And who is benefiting of the wealth of Africa today? 413 00:56:22,260 --> 00:56:29,100 Mostly those in the Western world as the ones who are mostly benefiting rather than the Africans himself. 414 00:56:29,610 --> 00:56:33,690 Thank you. Now, we had a question about half way back just there. 415 00:56:34,310 --> 00:56:37,760 Okay. You do? Yeah. Yeah. 416 00:56:37,890 --> 00:56:43,560 Hi. Yeah. Firstly, you know, this is a question for you about the UN not using an individual. 417 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,830 Your your work in in Rwanda is undeniable. 418 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,730 Firstly, it's. 419 00:56:50,730 --> 00:57:00,060 It's more about the creation of UNWRA and the way that the majority of the Palestinian refugees are classified under UNWRA as opposed to the UNHCR. 420 00:57:01,170 --> 00:57:07,500 And I'm wondering if that's potentially another barrier and the denial of the right of return. 421 00:57:08,670 --> 00:57:09,780 And secondly, 422 00:57:10,410 --> 00:57:20,850 going back to 1948 and the end of the British mandate and actually the UN complicity with the UN partition plan and the events perpetuated since then, 423 00:57:20,850 --> 00:57:27,600 you know, the massacres, the building of the national forests of Israel over, you know, multiple villages, 424 00:57:29,130 --> 00:57:33,660 you could constitute it's been a very slow genocide, certainly system of apartheid. 425 00:57:34,380 --> 00:57:45,930 How do you think that the UN's silence makes them complicit in one of the very things that they're sort of, you know, working to stand up for? 426 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:58,900 Well, I would say that I always I'm very I'm always very reluctant to use the G word. 427 00:58:00,470 --> 00:58:06,440 It is so serious that he would than one cannot use it lightly. 428 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:14,570 And that I write, is focussed most of the time I do on crimes against humanity. 429 00:58:14,590 --> 00:58:20,200 It's already something very serious. And this, of course, does not exclude to. 430 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:29,900 Continue investigating so as to find whether there is in a specific situation 431 00:58:30,620 --> 00:58:40,580 the intent to exterminate in part or total a group because of its identity. 432 00:58:41,300 --> 00:58:44,810 You know, genocide is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. 433 00:58:45,110 --> 00:59:02,240 It requires time, planning, etc. So it may have the physical element, but then to have the evidence of the intent element is another story. 434 00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:11,360 And Steve Rapp, who's a prosecutor, knows how hard it is, you know, and that's why And you know, the guiding, of course. 435 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:20,330 I mean, it's very sad because this should not have been to break into existence. 436 00:59:20,660 --> 00:59:25,250 In other words, the situation should have been resolved long time ago. 437 00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:34,610 You have had the Oslo Accord. You have had. But any time we lose, we have seen even a prime minister being killed because championing peace. 438 00:59:34,850 --> 00:59:42,049 And the thing, too, is that Rabin, you know, and let's give a chance to peace at some time. 439 00:59:42,050 --> 00:59:47,000 I just wonder if that's not those people, those merchants of death, 440 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:55,730 those people selling their weapon who have the problems, those who are making profit from the blood of innocent people. 441 00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:04,790 And this has to come to an end. And I think it is time for Israeli and Palestinian to get together. 442 01:00:05,300 --> 01:00:09,800 There was a time when I travel to Gaza, having to travel to Israel. 443 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,700 The civil society of both countries were working. 444 01:00:14,060 --> 01:00:20,360 But in recent years, what have we seen? We have seen a degradation even in that type of relationship. 445 01:00:20,750 --> 01:00:25,970 What's wrong? What's wrong? So we end with an issue of leadership. 446 01:00:26,330 --> 01:00:29,990 I think there is a problem of leadership in this world today. 447 01:00:30,950 --> 01:00:41,750 So to be even handed, I'm going to look back to this and I said, I think we should let someone else set and. 448 01:00:44,530 --> 01:00:48,759 Clara, we've got someone in the middle just here and just that. 449 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:53,580 Yep. Thanks very much. Hello. Thank you so much for this great presentation. 450 01:00:53,590 --> 01:00:59,050 I'm a visiting scholar from China. I really appreciate that you mention about our two key principles. 451 01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,870 I think it's so important for preventing the genocide. 452 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:08,020 But my question is, because that, you know, there are some states, especially in Labour, that Democratic states, 453 01:01:08,260 --> 01:01:18,160 they are very cautious about this principle because they worry about whether it could be abused or other issues beyond this extreme crime or genocide. 454 01:01:18,340 --> 01:01:28,120 So so my question is what your attitude and opinion, how to how to make get to a broader consensus around the way, 455 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:33,970 especially for the big countries in the UN's council Security Council. 456 01:01:34,450 --> 01:01:39,450 Thank you. But I hope I am the same. 457 01:01:39,450 --> 01:01:44,060 But thinking about you, there is a feeling to opt to. 458 01:01:44,340 --> 01:01:54,350 Is it? Globalised use because atopy is oriented around the prevention of genocide. 459 01:01:54,530 --> 01:02:04,010 But nowadays many in some countries could be very cautious about it because especially they are worried about where they could be used. 460 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:17,690 No, no, no, definitely. Of course, we have been facing this debate particularly since after the the Libyan scenario, 461 01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:27,210 and that led even further taking the first one who expressed remorse for having voted. 462 01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:35,480 Was President Zuma of South Africa. But later on, even President Obama expressed it the same. 463 01:02:35,780 --> 01:02:43,940 And then Tony Blair is basically saying the one I have not yet heard expressing actually most is former President Sarkozy. 464 01:02:44,330 --> 01:02:51,230 And he's the one, as you may know, who was very much close with Gadhafi. 465 01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:56,390 And there is even a case, a criminal case pending of a corruption of Gadhafi. 466 01:02:56,750 --> 01:03:03,230 It is alleged that Gadhafi provided him with funds for his electoral campaign. 467 01:03:03,740 --> 01:03:21,420 So it is true that after he was, let's say, perceived by some as a tool for, let's say, the Western world to interfere in the affairs of the others. 468 01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:27,680 But as I said, when it comes to active duty, it is implemented properly. 469 01:03:28,130 --> 01:03:40,930 That means simply. There is a wide avenue for intervention to protect civilians, but this has to go through a process. 470 01:03:41,410 --> 01:03:53,500 The council will have the five permanent members, you know, and of course, all of them in 2005 accepted the after being. 471 01:03:54,070 --> 01:04:02,320 But I want 39, but I want 40 of the World Summit outcome document because the three pillars of the are to be the first. 472 01:04:02,350 --> 01:04:05,980 Peter is the state responsibility. 473 01:04:06,010 --> 01:04:14,139 The primary responsibility lies with the state. Now, when the state doesn't have the means because not every state have. 474 01:04:14,140 --> 01:04:21,129 I mean, the state can ask the international community to help and then to provide the 475 01:04:21,130 --> 01:04:31,360 necessary tools to protect the population and to facing the risk of atrocity crimes. 476 01:04:31,780 --> 01:04:42,190 And the 10th pillar is when you have no order avenue then intervening militarily to protect the population. 477 01:04:42,730 --> 01:04:46,120 So that means this is the ultimate recourse. 478 01:04:46,570 --> 01:04:53,440 The use of force will be the ultimate, because we have seen a situation where I can say. 479 01:04:54,740 --> 01:04:59,780 We were able to prevent. 480 01:05:00,730 --> 01:05:07,180 Atrocity crimes to occur thanks to early involvement of the UN. 481 01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:16,420 I was giving them the example of Kenya, you know, and I was saying, But let's be humble. 482 01:05:17,170 --> 01:05:22,270 If Kenya in 2013 escape. 483 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,940 A situation where ethnic group would kill each other. 484 01:05:28,390 --> 01:05:33,280 That is because the Kenyan people themselves too their destiny in their hand. 485 01:05:33,550 --> 01:05:38,710 The civil society was mobilised. We only provided them with resources to do work. 486 01:05:39,100 --> 01:05:42,760 And then the other dimension was also the accountability dimension. 487 01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:56,050 We all remember the famous Ocampo six. You know, when following 2000 and 7008 events, the case thank to Kofi Annan was referred to the ICC. 488 01:05:56,410 --> 01:06:12,100 So the only thing my view is for those people in the Western world to provide reassurance to the people of the global South to show that. 489 01:06:13,530 --> 01:06:23,280 It is not about interfering as an imperialist force to interfere in this affair, but is about saving lives. 490 01:06:23,550 --> 01:06:33,720 It's about saving lives. But unfortunately, what we are seeing today doesn't help the R2 team to grow in a very healthy way. 491 01:06:34,890 --> 01:06:42,090 At this stage, I'm aware, painfully aware of two things just how many people there are in the room that would like to ask a 492 01:06:42,090 --> 01:06:49,020 question alongside just how strict Professor Godfrey is with his Swiss standards of timekeeping. 493 01:06:49,020 --> 01:06:56,010 So unless you want to break your own rule and ask an unknown question, I've got a vigorous no. 494 01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,960 Then could we invite Valerie Amos to come and give the vote of thanks? 495 01:07:13,450 --> 01:07:17,109 Adama, my friend, my colleague. 496 01:07:17,110 --> 01:07:20,889 It's a particular pleasure to have been asked to give the vote of thanks. 497 01:07:20,890 --> 01:07:25,900 And I wanted to start with two thank you's to you. 498 01:07:25,900 --> 01:07:39,070 Really the first for your courage in speaking up and speaking out about the continued atrocities that we're seeing around the world. 499 01:07:40,370 --> 01:07:51,290 And secondly, that you continue to shine a spotlight on those atrocities and you're not afraid to do that. 500 01:07:52,760 --> 01:08:00,169 If I may, I wanted to just pick up a couple of things that you said in your presentation, 501 01:08:00,170 --> 01:08:05,780 which and in the Q&A, which were incredibly, incredibly important. 502 01:08:07,310 --> 01:08:18,500 You alluded to the importance of recognising, as it were, the intersectionality in terms of work on human rights, the humanitarian work, 503 01:08:19,310 --> 01:08:29,780 but also on development issues, and that the way that very often the UN addresses these issues is not in a holistic way, 504 01:08:31,070 --> 01:08:47,510 but much of what we see by way of atrocity we could identify in advance if we think about the conditions that lead to these situations, 505 01:08:47,510 --> 01:08:55,190 the breakdown of the rule of law, for example, the breakdown in terms of the protection of civilians. 506 01:08:55,190 --> 01:09:01,760 And we see this being played out time and time again without intervention. 507 01:09:03,230 --> 01:09:14,210 Crucially, you talked about the importance of words and definition, words and definition really to matter. 508 01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:24,650 But I do think it's important that we are careful that in the noise around these definitions of genocide, 509 01:09:24,650 --> 01:09:32,780 crimes against humanity and so on, that these are not used as a mechanism for preventing action. 510 01:09:32,780 --> 01:09:41,320 And we have sometimes seen that when governments have got worked up about is this a genocide or not, is this a crime against humanity? 511 01:09:41,330 --> 01:09:44,270 There's an important legal track. I think we all recognise that. 512 01:09:44,780 --> 01:09:55,460 But there is important work on the ground which we need to really be able to key into and which informs that legal track. 513 01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:04,160 And it links very firmly to the points you made around accountability, monitoring and reporting, 514 01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:11,209 particularly if we are going to challenge this concept of sovereignty, 515 01:10:11,210 --> 01:10:18,140 which very often states use as a mechanism to ensure that there is no discussion 516 01:10:19,130 --> 01:10:23,300 or to try to prevent discussion about what is happening in their countries. 517 01:10:23,300 --> 01:10:32,000 And we saw this when you and I worked together when Syria was very high on the agenda and indeed when what happened 518 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:41,480 with Libya in relation to RTP was actually used against us when we tried to use our trip in relation to Syria. 519 01:10:41,510 --> 01:10:44,570 So coming to your conclusion. 520 01:10:45,170 --> 01:10:45,800 Thank you. 521 01:10:45,860 --> 01:10:53,900 Very clearly identified the way in which political differences between the permanent members of the Security Council does not just stifle action, 522 01:10:54,230 --> 01:11:00,260 it actually works against it sometimes because we see them engaged in proxy wars. 523 01:11:00,890 --> 01:11:03,950 So what does that mean for all of us in this room and for you? 524 01:11:04,700 --> 01:11:09,800 It means that we have to continue our efforts despite the Security Council. 525 01:11:10,340 --> 01:11:15,860 We need to find allies and stakeholders that we can work with. 526 01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:22,370 We are not necessarily seeing the leadership from the Security Council that we would like to see. 527 01:11:22,970 --> 01:11:28,550 So that leadership needs to come from all of us. And crucially, it comes from you. 528 01:11:29,090 --> 01:11:34,730 So thank you very, very much indeed for coming tonight and for sharing your thoughts with us. 529 01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:35,990 Thank you. Thank you.