1 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:19,470 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Welcome to the second episode of the University of Oxford Cop 29 podcast series on sustainable cities. 2 00:00:20,250 --> 00:00:25,460 My name is Doctor Catherine Maxwell, and today I'll be speaking with Professor Michael Acuto Poole, 3 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:28,560 vice chancellor of global engagement at the University of Bristol. 4 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:34,260 We'll be discussing how cities are developing partnerships to accelerate towards their next year targets. 5 00:00:37,770 --> 00:00:41,640 Welcome to the podcast, Michael. Thank you for joining us today. A pleasure. 6 00:00:43,380 --> 00:00:46,890 Let's jump in then. At Cop 29 this year. 7 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:50,910 There's been a significant focus on national government's climate targets. 8 00:00:51,390 --> 00:00:56,940 However, there's also an increasing emphasis on implementing climate action at the city scale. 9 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:04,320 So this has been seen it Cop 29 and also other UN conferences such as the recent World Urban Forum. 10 00:01:04,860 --> 00:01:06,750 So with this in mind, 11 00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:16,470 how has this year's Cope and other UN climate conferences really started to recognise the increasing role of cities within climate negotiations? 12 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:22,050 Yeah. Good question. It's been a few cops, uh, for cities to set to say the least. 13 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:27,569 Um, so I think it's a, it's a good point in a, in a, in a trajectory of many, many things. 14 00:01:27,570 --> 00:01:32,230 And I think you're perfectly right there. It's cop plus many, many other things. 15 00:01:32,250 --> 00:01:38,120 So if you're a city or if you're in that city of city diplomacy space or city network, uh, 16 00:01:38,190 --> 00:01:47,130 a multilateral organisation like the world Bank or others that work with cities, you've got a pretty busy year almost every year at this point, 17 00:01:47,850 --> 00:01:54,959 I think cop specifically this year up until now, we've seen lots of mayors, lots of city networks, really engaged, 18 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:03,960 really part of conversations, uh, tons of side events, uh, tons of advocacy, tons of, uh, of reporting on it. 19 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:13,860 So if anything, it's very clear that cities are there in not just the machinery of Cop, but the broader multilateral world of climate action. 20 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:22,170 Um, the advantages being that this, like the previous Cop, now even has a dedicated day for this kind of conversation. 21 00:02:22,170 --> 00:02:28,560 And I think I'm happy that we can dwell a bit more on to that. But it's an interesting part of being formally part of this. 22 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:36,160 But I'd say it's pretty hard to imagine a cop now without mayors and city advocates on the stage. 23 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,390 Mhm. And with this sort of increasing rule over the past few years, 24 00:02:41,780 --> 00:02:48,889 how have these sort of negotiations and engaging in these negotiations influenced how 25 00:02:48,890 --> 00:02:54,500 cities collaborate with multiple different stakeholders and partners on climate action? 26 00:02:56,110 --> 00:02:59,700 Yeah I think. A couple of things to unpack there, potentially. 27 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:12,570 On the one hand, my international low self reminded self that these are not a party per se to the negotiation itself. 28 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:19,230 At the end of the day, many of these contexts, we're still talking about international processing programs. 29 00:03:19,690 --> 00:03:23,700 Um, so practically, even when we speak with diplomats, 30 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:28,790 that we have to remind ourselves that that there are national diplomats that are once engaged in the negotiation itself. 31 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:35,100 So I think something important and my alluding to other cops is I have had flashes 32 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:39,420 this morning thinking through the cop in you is the of the Copenhagen cop. 33 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,020 Uh, quite a while back, and my memory was always okay. 34 00:03:43,020 --> 00:03:45,420 Our city is always outside of the tent. 35 00:03:45,780 --> 00:03:52,680 And as a reference that there was a beach of a tent at that point of city action outside of Copenhagen's main negotiation. 36 00:03:53,310 --> 00:03:58,650 And I think cities are now in the tent. Insofar as there is a recognition, there is a day. 37 00:03:58,740 --> 00:04:02,400 There are many national diplomats that work with and through cities. 38 00:04:03,060 --> 00:04:08,100 Um, and there are many bodies, um, international bodies that had to embrace cities. 39 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:14,700 There are many elements of these international bodies within the UN, for instance, where cities can fit in. 40 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:21,420 The interesting thing is, do cities have a say in the negotiation per se, which they don't, 41 00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:27,470 but they have an important role in the lobbying and the pushing and the shifting of those negotiations. 42 00:04:28,350 --> 00:04:35,040 And that I think the last for me is the importantly in there is we always focus a lot on mayors, 43 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:38,189 and there's lots to be said about mayors and the city leaders. 44 00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:44,660 But if we think of city leaders a bit more broadly, there's many of the city leadership that is coming from all over the place. 45 00:04:44,670 --> 00:04:50,100 Uh, major philanthropies, as I said, multilateral organisations, uh, coalitions of cities. 46 00:04:50,370 --> 00:04:55,019 So you have many realities that might not be there. 47 00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:58,680 May you or that you see on stage, but they are powerful urban actors. 48 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:06,720 So I think the qualifier for me is we've seen a more and more mature and more and more present and more and more successful urban conversation. 49 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,720 And I'd say we can still say oftentimes is more successful than the national conversation. 50 00:05:13,020 --> 00:05:15,750 Um, by quite some degree. Okay. 51 00:05:16,410 --> 00:05:24,930 And that's really interesting because as these international climate negotiations move towards a discussions around, uh, 52 00:05:24,930 --> 00:05:36,749 climate action implementation and financing climate action, how does that then impact the types of partnerships that cities are currently developing? 53 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:42,000 And do you think this is going to encourage cities to sort of think outside the box and partner 54 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,490 with stakeholders and organisations that they wouldn't normally or traditionally engage with? 55 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,299 I think controversially, I would say the cities have been thinking outside of that box for quite some time now. 56 00:05:55,300 --> 00:06:02,379 And in many ways, the genesis of things that you would know very well, like the genesis of C40 being a C20, 57 00:06:02,380 --> 00:06:08,320 as in a G20 of cities back, uh, back quite a few decades for a couple of decades now, 58 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:18,790 at this point in the decade, uh, you know, sort of reminds you that cities had to think outside of the box because the national box wasn't delivering. 59 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:26,680 So I'm actually thinking it in reverse that there's many more actors internationally that are thinking outside of the box, 60 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:37,810 going in with cities to deliver what they have to deliver to get to a plausible at least two degrees context and to really make change happen. 61 00:06:38,530 --> 00:06:42,700 Because practically then you see the wealth of evidence. 62 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:48,700 Now that it's available, it's communicated through groups like Kigali and C40, where cities have delivered to the action. 63 00:06:48,910 --> 00:06:58,090 You have tens of thousands of actions and hundreds of reports that showed the level of action on the ground by cities in. 64 00:06:58,390 --> 00:07:04,600 So in many ways, cities become one of the interesting implementers of the sort of global ambition. 65 00:07:05,050 --> 00:07:12,220 Uh, and I think structurally that's quite interesting in the sense that then they become more fundamental actors 66 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:17,890 and fundamental pieces of the puzzle to connect different things like philanthropic investment to business, 67 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:27,069 uh, commitments on the ground, to planning and housing issues, to, uh, leadership and political positions. 68 00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:33,370 Uh, the city is a microcosm of action, becomes a very interesting connector to think outside of a box, 69 00:07:33,460 --> 00:07:40,930 because at the end of the day, we're making still reasonably glacial steps forward into the fight against climate change. 70 00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:48,060 And if cities have been kind, just thinking outside the box for, you know, quite a number of years already. 71 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:57,370 How can cities effectively kind of foster cross-sector collaboration in terms to meet their very ambitious, you know, 72 00:07:57,390 --> 00:08:00,900 climate mitigation and resilience and commitments like, 73 00:08:01,050 --> 00:08:07,170 does this require a bit more of a concerted effort from cities to resource that type of engagement? 74 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:16,520 It does it in many ways the, the, the evaluation of the success, I would argue, 75 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:23,569 of things like of city networks, the points that, first of all, coalition really delivers. 76 00:08:23,570 --> 00:08:29,809 And so the, the mode of collaborative urban governance, that's very academic as a term, 77 00:08:29,810 --> 00:08:33,260 but KPIs getting together with peers and doing stuff across borders, 78 00:08:33,890 --> 00:08:41,000 it has been proven by research to deliver the ambition and, uh, and the activity on the ground. 79 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,860 So the more you collaborate, the more likely you are to deliver at scale on climate change. 80 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:52,010 So clearly the the edifice that is being constructed and this skeleton that has 81 00:08:52,010 --> 00:08:56,390 been constructed internationally for city diplomacy by KPIs is delivering. 82 00:08:57,350 --> 00:09:04,340 The downside of that is that cities are on the frontline of financial austerity and and limits. 83 00:09:05,510 --> 00:09:13,400 And the reality there is that properties a need for sizeable national investment in cities. 84 00:09:13,790 --> 00:09:22,880 So I think thinking through this year's Cop. But one of the positives of last year's Cop was the signing of champ as a coalition for multi-level 85 00:09:23,060 --> 00:09:29,240 action that recognises the need for countries to work with things like CTS and and finally, 86 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,700 us getting to a stage where a country say, saying we can't deliver this without CTS. 87 00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:40,770 This year, there's been a recommitment to it with the obviously a backhoe, uh, 88 00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:45,830 badge on top of it as a statement and continuing the other the, the ambition of champ. 89 00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:54,380 Um, but we still struggle in the, I guess oftentimes the national buy in and the national plug in for CTS. 90 00:09:54,650 --> 00:09:58,969 And we still have a reality where we need very sizeable investment. 91 00:09:58,970 --> 00:10:08,120 So I guess one one fact is, uh, for instance, mayors from seaport OECD's called for an 800 billion investment, uh, in cities by 2030. 92 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,699 So the reality is we need really sizeable multilateral and national investment in cities. 93 00:10:13,700 --> 00:10:19,389 And that still isn't happening at the scale we need it. And do you think that. 94 00:10:19,390 --> 00:10:23,200 So people listening to the podcast might think, okay, you know, 95 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:30,850 cities are putting resources behind this engagement, whether that's through networks such as C40 or Ilkley, 96 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:39,459 because that can help mobilise resources and build a lot of momentum in kind of representing the cities or voice in these types of negotiations, 97 00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:44,740 even if there's not a formal process to always capture that contribution. 98 00:10:45,820 --> 00:10:53,560 I'm wondering if people will question the real benefits, though, of this kind of cross-sectoral collaboration. 99 00:10:53,890 --> 00:10:56,380 I mean, you touched upon there that, you know, 100 00:10:56,740 --> 00:11:04,420 there's a sizeable investment that's required within cities to really deliver on their climate ambitions, many of which are hugely ambitious. 101 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:13,090 Um, but what are the kind of other benefits of this in terms of either city to city collaboration or collaborating with the private sector? 102 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,260 You know, could you maybe list a couple of those in terms of from your experience of working with cities? 103 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:25,840 Yeah, I think the the one advantage of this is cop being the finance cop, whether it really delivers on that or not. 104 00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:33,010 Is that a cop itself got on the same page of something that I would argue it's been a good 105 00:11:33,010 --> 00:11:40,060 few cops that the cities and cities and climate advocacy coalitions have been arguing for. 106 00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:45,490 So real serious financial instruments to deliver at that scale. 107 00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:53,290 Uh, I recall one piece of work that we had done jointly with C40 for the Paris Agreement was to prove, 108 00:11:53,290 --> 00:11:59,259 uh, as a project powers, uh, and the power of the cities had to deliver climate change. 109 00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:03,190 And the argument was cities were putting their money where their mouth was. 110 00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:07,240 And so they were investing in these things. Isn't just mayors talking, it's mayors doing, 111 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:16,710 but also that that that had gotten to a level where they really needed higher scale investment to be really inclusive. 112 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:23,590 And it is fundamentally still the issue, which is certain cities can do this, um, 113 00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:30,010 but they need their countries to bring along the variety of cities and urban realities that we have. 114 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:34,090 Um, and also that it isn't just about getting out there. 115 00:12:34,090 --> 00:12:43,490 It's about, uh, networking with each other to, um, exchange policy experiences that work in one place, um, and could work in another one. 116 00:12:43,510 --> 00:12:53,100 So you don't always have to start from scratch. Um, very practically procure, um, joint procurement, pool procurement, joint, uh, investments. 117 00:12:53,530 --> 00:13:00,190 So putting resources together, it's easier to invest in a number of cities that it is in a single one to see scale of change. 118 00:13:01,450 --> 00:13:11,139 And then practically also to create a sort of better coalition that that has a voice of cities in the international context, 119 00:13:11,140 --> 00:13:15,790 because the international context for a long time just hasn't had that voice of cities in it. 120 00:13:15,790 --> 00:13:24,190 So I think something quite powerful there is that as cops were sort of happening on one side, we had the G20 happening on the other side, 121 00:13:24,430 --> 00:13:30,370 and the finance ministers, uh, and the finance conversation really buying into the power of cities. 122 00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:41,479 There is an urban 20 attached to the group of 20 that put together really sensible, powerful communique and the G20 listening and engaging with it, 123 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,520 that the multilateral agencies like the world Bank and other large banks, uh, 124 00:13:46,660 --> 00:13:52,930 have recognised the need and the complications of lending directly to cities, not just to states. 125 00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:56,140 So there's a lot of interesting experimentation there. 126 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:03,310 But it isn't just the mayors out there doing kind of pays and, and, and and it's not a branding exercise. 127 00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:10,150 It's a financing. Uh, it's uh, it policy solutions kind of exercise, but it's hard. 128 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,809 It's very hard from a mayoral perspective to explain that to your citizens that 129 00:14:13,810 --> 00:14:20,350 have so many other priorities and concerns that it is really a return of that, 130 00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:25,770 uh, two level game between your local politics and, uh, the international politics. 131 00:14:25,780 --> 00:14:30,130 Uh, and many, many, many years would tell you really horror stories, to be honest, 132 00:14:30,340 --> 00:14:34,150 um, about sort of how much you get into the fire land for getting out there. 133 00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:37,879 And that actually just touches upon my next point, 134 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:44,150 because we look at the flip side of that in terms of some of the challenges, which you've kind of touched upon a bit, um, 135 00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:48,260 around climate action implementation, when, you know, 136 00:14:48,350 --> 00:14:55,690 cities are coming together and when there's an opportunity to invest in multiple cities at once to get the scale of change that, 137 00:14:55,730 --> 00:15:03,920 that you're kind of looking for when cities are collaborating either with each other to around investment or around 138 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:09,680 knowledge sharing or sharing ideas and different types of policies that either are effective or not quite as effective, 139 00:15:10,130 --> 00:15:17,080 you know, this same. There can always be a risk, I suppose, of working with a stakeholder. 140 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,940 And that can be across any sector, 141 00:15:19,540 --> 00:15:29,820 either with vested interests or maybe that has an influence that might not always align with with a city's own climate vision and and target. 142 00:15:29,830 --> 00:15:34,540 So how do cities manage that and is that even possible? 143 00:15:34,690 --> 00:15:40,780 Working with a variety of different stakeholders, all with their different priorities and preferences. 144 00:15:42,010 --> 00:15:45,430 Yeah, without naming names and pointing to specific examples. 145 00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:53,770 I think if you hit that nail in the head and it partly that's that's why I'm sort of referencing the idea of CT diplomacy. 146 00:15:53,770 --> 00:15:56,679 So the idea that a CT can do international relations, 147 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:02,770 because most cities are an organised political entity and most cities have representatives out there. 148 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:10,030 The interesting thing, and I'm thinking through sort of through the work that we've done with the City Diplomacy survey since 2017, 149 00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:15,100 where we're looking at cities internationally and trying to figure out what can a city do this? 150 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:22,689 Is this even the job of a city, or is it the job of a city? I guess in the English speaking world, the rates, uh, roads and rubbish, right? 151 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:24,880 That's that's all that they have to do as a city. 152 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:33,640 And the argument has always been doing international relations is and external relations is fundamental to the life of a city, 153 00:16:33,940 --> 00:16:37,570 because the city is nothing but an aggregation of things that come together. 154 00:16:38,050 --> 00:16:41,230 And cities were born to be places of coming together. 155 00:16:41,230 --> 00:16:49,719 So you have to manage that coming together. And the reason why I say you hit the nail on the head is, yes, but most people and most cities, 156 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:57,340 most people that work in cities and most cities don't really have structures for this because we've progressively created cities, 157 00:16:57,340 --> 00:17:03,410 less city states and more cities. You don't have many diplomats, right? 158 00:17:03,530 --> 00:17:07,010 So you don't really have many people trained to spot those sort of things. 159 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,680 Um, trained to spot foreign interference and influence, uh, trained in international negotiation. 160 00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:22,670 Um, Promesa was clear when we took around copper in the in the simple dance of who gets a badge and it goes into which room. 161 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:29,360 And fundamentally it's a state. Diplomats can get into certain rooms and cities can't. 162 00:17:29,870 --> 00:17:39,979 Uh, so structurally so. Expanding the international relations capacity of cities is not a vanity project or a side bit. 163 00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:45,230 Its 1 or 1. 21st Century Municipal statecraft. 164 00:17:45,710 --> 00:17:49,130 It's been at the fundamentals of how we should be managing cities. 165 00:17:49,550 --> 00:17:54,980 Um, the positives are that there are many cities out there that have gotten this, uh, 166 00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:59,630 and they have really amazing international teams because it isn't just the mayor getting up there. 167 00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:03,650 Um, the positives is that there is data. There's more data about this. 168 00:18:03,710 --> 00:18:06,860 So you can disentangle all these actors, all these things happening and so on. 169 00:18:07,310 --> 00:18:16,250 Um, the positives is that there's a generation of CT profession and municipal professionals that now take things like C40 and, 170 00:18:16,250 --> 00:18:22,750 and networks as a default. So they're used to it. They're used to relying on their embassies when they go abroad. 171 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,250 It's a classic thing that that we always test. 172 00:18:25,310 --> 00:18:31,370 Do you know you can call your embassy because you're part of a country, but there's still a lot of work to do and in reverse. 173 00:18:31,370 --> 00:18:38,530 And I guess I'm happy to get into that. But in reverse, countries that are still not used to their cities being out there. 174 00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:45,260 So countries themselves, there's a handful of countries that have offices in their foreign ministry that that deal with cities. 175 00:18:46,010 --> 00:18:51,110 You just we continuously imagine cities as road trains and rubbish based in a single place. 176 00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:59,149 And actually just picking up on that, the, you know, the interesting dynamic then between local and national governments, 177 00:18:59,150 --> 00:19:09,320 as you know, cities do become a little bit more, uh, prominent or invisible in some of these, uh, UN conferences such as Cop. 178 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:17,870 And do you think that these sort of partnerships and the sort of visibility and do you 179 00:19:17,870 --> 00:19:22,340 think that's kind of changing the role of cities within climate change negotiations? 180 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,680 As I mentioned before, they don't we're aware that they don't have a formal way to fit into that process. 181 00:19:28,190 --> 00:19:35,990 But do you think the increased visibility is really strengthening cities or the urban sort of position on the global stage? 182 00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:44,330 It is. It certainly has gotten quite a good side of what we could call sort of symbolic power, 183 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,709 uh, of of bringing the city and symbolic powers and just, just being on stage. 184 00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:56,950 It is being able to identify the role of something in a mass of similar things as the. 185 00:19:57,170 --> 00:20:04,400 It would be odd, I think, these days to organise something like cop without those coalitions on, on the ground. 186 00:20:04,910 --> 00:20:12,350 So for instance, calls during this cop to either ditch the cop format or change it radically. 187 00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:22,550 I would expect it to really need an even greater sort of system for cities to feed in, to buy in, to engage, to respond, and so on. 188 00:20:22,610 --> 00:20:30,260 One of the important things is that we've brought in a section of it that engages with ministers that have to do with this. 189 00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:36,830 But there are still many countries where there isn't even a minister that deals with this sort of issues, right? 190 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:44,600 And an obvious interlocutor to see these. And I guess my reference to the handful was also, there's almost no camp. 191 00:20:44,660 --> 00:20:48,160 Very few countries that have something that I'm going to say. 192 00:20:48,170 --> 00:20:51,650 For those of you listening in 2024. 193 00:20:51,860 --> 00:20:59,419 Uh, the United States have with the special representative in the State Department for Subnational Diplomacy, 194 00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:08,650 for an office where Ambassador Nina Keegan sort of manages the relationship between the foreign ministry entities. 195 00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:14,600 Something like that is so critical today, and so few countries actually have something like that, 196 00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:23,330 that we often sort of focus very much on the negotiation piece of cop, and not on the fact that the countries themselves need to change and meet up. 197 00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:27,500 KD diplomacy is a piece of what their countries do. 198 00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:30,330 And do you think that? 199 00:21:31,140 --> 00:21:41,100 Well, how do you see whether the role of cities playing out in in future cops, you know, as they're becoming more kind of centre stage. 200 00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:46,410 But the UN model is more geared to national government engagement. 201 00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:49,890 But do you think that this could change over time? 202 00:21:52,380 --> 00:21:56,670 I've been a half full class kind of person. 203 00:21:57,690 --> 00:22:05,010 Up until now, I sort of deep in the back of my mind on the basis of sort of evidence on this, 204 00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:10,040 uh, hundreds and hundreds of city networks, uh, thousands of conferences. 205 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:15,600 You can go to an urban conference every day, uh, hundreds of philanthropic investments with millions, 206 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,750 in fact, sort of hundreds of millions of investment. 207 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,620 On the one hand, we're at the heyday of city diplomacy. 208 00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:32,880 On the other hand, we're confronting quite, uh, nationalist, inward focussed backlash in geopolitics in many countries, 209 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:38,669 and even in context where the leadership is perhaps a little bit more progressive, 210 00:22:38,670 --> 00:22:43,260 or at least left leaning, there's still quite a sort of looking backwards and inwards. 211 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,790 The question is, is, is, is this point in time in the 2020s, peak city diplomacy. 212 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:58,890 And we got as far as we could go because then we would have to admit capacity for a city to actually speak in the multilateral sector. 213 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,510 Um, we would have to admit capacity for a city. 214 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:09,930 That's the question. With the multilateral banks capacity of a city to receive money directly, not mediated through a counter or third party. 215 00:23:10,410 --> 00:23:20,850 We would have to admit that the voice of a city, in many cases, not always, in many cases a sort of a good quarter of cities, 216 00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:29,579 are citizens and not nationals, that the mayors and leaders of these cities are appointed by migrants. 217 00:23:29,580 --> 00:23:36,989 They come from another country as well. So we would have to admit some pretty fundamental shifts in the share of international relations. 218 00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:40,020 Right? Sovereignty, territoriality. Citizenships. 219 00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:46,860 Uh, I like to think that that's likely because of the level of change that cities have created. 220 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,630 But I recognise we're facing quite a serious backlash. I think we need to take it very seriously because it is. 221 00:23:54,080 --> 00:24:01,310 It is a maybe it's not a do or die moment. It's certainly a do or die moment in climate, but it is a critical juncture. 222 00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:05,150 Otherwise we might just get stuck into this mode access. 223 00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:16,280 But. Yeah, there's a lot of, uh, broader geopolitical challenges which are going to have quite a substantial impact, I think, going forward. 224 00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:25,940 And although, you know, the role of citizens is increasing somewhat in terms of the global kind of climate change is staged in negotiations. 225 00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:32,360 Do you think this is going to impact the how cities can have a or rather, 226 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:37,780 the impact that cities can have on global climate negotiations in terms of their broader influence? 227 00:24:37,790 --> 00:24:43,189 I mean, you'd have been doing it getting more involved for the past few years, certainly. 228 00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:45,410 But, you know, with these current changes, 229 00:24:45,620 --> 00:24:53,360 how do you envisage that it's going to impact the ability for cities to influence these sort of negotiations and broader discussions? 230 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:02,250 It will impact if we don't have a sustained investment by countries in in the value of cities. 231 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:08,290 I think that's what's in that's what's in champ itself, that if there is in the sustained commitment, 232 00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:19,590 especially to cities in the global South and medium and small sized cities, uh, uh, mega cities that that represent the majority of a country, 233 00:25:19,740 --> 00:25:26,370 if there isn't a sustained commitment to engagement of that, the risk is that the current financial, 234 00:25:26,580 --> 00:25:33,389 environmental, uh, resilience challenge will eventually push cities to have to choose. 235 00:25:33,390 --> 00:25:38,100 Many cities have become more pragmatic on how many of these things they can do at any one time, 236 00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:43,169 on their own resources, or that we will continue to have to rely. 237 00:25:43,170 --> 00:25:49,920 And it's great that we do in many cases, but we will have to rely on philanthropic or private investments to make this happen, 238 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,770 because we don't have the level of systemic investment in cities. 239 00:25:54,780 --> 00:26:03,780 Uh, and that's concerning because that then comes, uh, you know, 98% of philanthropic donation or investments in, in development are earmarked. 240 00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:06,960 So they come with, uh, uh, we come with agendas. 241 00:26:06,970 --> 00:26:11,520 Uh, the private sector has to remain viable financially. 242 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:17,849 So I guess the point is that that creates still some important dependencies and some inequalities in the system. 243 00:26:17,850 --> 00:26:26,640 And I think for me that's a critical one, because if we don't invest in this, uh, the inequalities that will continue and might become starker, 244 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:35,640 uh, inequalities in the form of a climate crisis, uh, major urban health issues, uh, uh, really pressing resilience challenges. 245 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,900 So cities is really the frontline in many, many cases here. 246 00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:48,880 Um, and. As a, um, national governments develop their own ambitious climate plans. 247 00:26:49,270 --> 00:26:55,329 How are cities then? How can they best support national government to deliver on their own climate commitments, 248 00:26:55,330 --> 00:27:02,350 especially if there is, um, instability in terms of climate finance and accessing that climate finance, 249 00:27:02,350 --> 00:27:09,910 particularly for, you know, cities in the global South that are more vulnerable to the changing impacts of climate change. 250 00:27:11,530 --> 00:27:20,710 Yeah, I think that on that front, you first of all have the interesting movement to better structure internally central local relationships. 251 00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:25,390 So having capacity for the engagement of cities in the creation of national plans. 252 00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:31,719 Uh, there is the. A growing reality in the OECD has done really great work on this. 253 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:38,650 The growing reality of national urban plans and national urban policies is a positive movement, 254 00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:45,190 because you have countries recognising the need to work with urban issues and the two things talking to each other. 255 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:52,660 There is it good enough, but not as well structured variety of sort of central local relation systems. 256 00:27:53,200 --> 00:28:01,479 Um, but many times it's splintered, for instance, uh, or it doesn't really have a specific ministry to deal with and so on. 257 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:07,720 So there's a little bit of organising and there is a little bit of, uh, uh, capacity to be recognised nationally. 258 00:28:08,050 --> 00:28:14,320 I think that the, the interesting thing for me is where then there's an additional step on that, 259 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:20,740 which is embedding cities into national planning, embedding the voice of cities. 260 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:30,579 Um, because the big shift the, the piece of work um, on the UN frameworks, which is quite well, uh, matching the national, 261 00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:32,290 national frameworks and national policies, 262 00:28:33,010 --> 00:28:42,310 the recognition of cities is since 1972 to today has grown across all kinds of areas, across all kinds of domains. 263 00:28:42,580 --> 00:28:47,650 And that where the recognition has grown the most is in recognising cities as actors. 264 00:28:47,950 --> 00:28:49,990 And there's a big difference between saying city, 265 00:28:50,170 --> 00:28:57,430 a city or an urban thing is a place where something happens and a city is an actor that can do something. 266 00:28:57,730 --> 00:29:03,880 Um, so the importance of recognising nationally cities as key actors is critical. 267 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,650 Um, but the times the cities are going one way politically and countries are going the opposite way. 268 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,210 Yeah. And I think we're going to probably see more of that next year. Not naming names. 269 00:29:16,770 --> 00:29:23,759 Well, thank you so much, uh, Professor Kito, for your time and for your insights, not only on cop 29, 270 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:29,400 but on the kind of broader opportunities and complexities of city collaboration. 271 00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:34,140 It's been great to discuss that with you. So thank you. Thanks, Catherine, a pleasure. 272 00:29:41,220 --> 00:29:47,820 Thank you for listening. And our next episode, we'll be speaking with Councillor Susan Aitken, leader of Glasgow City Council, 273 00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:52,650 on the role that climate finance can play, enabling cities to reach their climate targets.