1 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:17,280 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Welcome to the third episode of the University of Oxford, Queensland podcast series on sustainable cities. 2 00:00:18,090 --> 00:00:24,870 My name is Doctor Catherine Maxwell and today I will be speaking with Councillor Susan Aitken, leader of Glasgow City Council. 3 00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:31,350 In this episode, we'll be discussing the role of climate finance in enabling cities to reach their climate targets. 4 00:00:35,650 --> 00:00:38,860 Welcome to the podcast, Susan. Thank you. 5 00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:40,940 So let's get started. 6 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:52,480 Um, so cop 29 this year was billed as the finance cop, and the negotiations were focusing on agreeing a climate finance target to fund climate action. 7 00:00:52,930 --> 00:00:57,339 So this is quite a critical stage because without the funding, 8 00:00:57,340 --> 00:01:02,590 it's going to be increasingly unlikely that countries and cities are going to be 9 00:01:02,590 --> 00:01:07,630 able to limit global warming and also align with the Paris Agreement objectives. 10 00:01:08,410 --> 00:01:17,920 So with that in mind, I'd be interested to get your initial take on the key to progress at Cop 29 on agreeing a global climate finance target. 11 00:01:18,970 --> 00:01:23,500 Um, well, it's clearly fallen short, and I think there's there's no question about that. 12 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:31,750 Um, you know, I look at the work that we've done in Glasgow to, uh, have clarity around what our, uh, 13 00:01:31,750 --> 00:01:39,880 financial needs are to to decarbonise the city by over a target date of which is net zero by, by 2030. 14 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,899 Uh, and the the net zero route map that we've just produced, 15 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:50,410 which is the most detailed piece of work that we've done so far in terms of understanding exactly how far we've come, 16 00:01:50,410 --> 00:02:01,690 how far we have to go and how much it's going to cost. And we're talking about between 24 billion and 37 billion, uh, for, um, for one city, um, 17 00:02:01,690 --> 00:02:08,649 now a post-industrial city with challenges where we need to do both mitigation and adaptation. 18 00:02:08,650 --> 00:02:18,310 But nonetheless, um, I don't think that's particularly an outlier, uh, in comparison to many of our peer cities, certainly in the developed world. 19 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:23,920 So when you just think about that, you think 300 billion is clearly not going to cut it. 20 00:02:24,430 --> 00:02:27,219 Um, you know, arguably it's a start. 21 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:35,790 And, um, I know that many of the protesters who, uh, back who who were rightly very angry, I wasn't at cop 29 this year. 22 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,710 Um, I was at the U20 summit in Rio, which was on at the same time, where there was a big cities focus. 23 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:45,429 Um, but I know that lots of them were seeing, um, no deals. 24 00:02:45,430 --> 00:02:48,200 Better than a bad deal. I'm not convinced about that. 25 00:02:48,220 --> 00:02:53,950 I think I come from a very kind of pragmatic point of view on this, is that we just need to do stuff. 26 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,730 We need to get started. We need to be delivering implementation. 27 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,280 Um, and so take the 300 billion. Go on with that. 28 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:07,360 Keep fighting for more. Uh, but but 300 billion is not going to cut it for for the scale of what needs to be done. 29 00:03:07,660 --> 00:03:11,020 Um, either on mitigation or adaptation. 30 00:03:11,290 --> 00:03:20,560 Um, and adaptation, of course, is often the more challenging bit to fund, but is particularly crucial for ehm, for global South countries. 31 00:03:21,940 --> 00:03:24,930 And just picking up on your point there around eh, 32 00:03:24,940 --> 00:03:30,790 the implementation because the discussions are moving towards actually implementing climate action on the ground. 33 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:34,450 You know, the kind of logistical side of that and obviously the financing. 34 00:03:35,230 --> 00:03:41,420 Why is climate finance so important right now for cities a and national governments? 35 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:47,410 Because I think people listening to the podcast might think, okay, the fallen short of a climate target, but what does that actually really mean? 36 00:03:47,650 --> 00:03:54,980 And what does it mean for me? So why is that climate finance so critical at this moment for cities? 37 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,180 Um, it's because cities are ready to implement. We we are we are ready. 38 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,230 We've got the plans. We know what we need to do. 39 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:06,640 Um, we are, you know, cities, um, are are focussed on delivery. 40 00:04:07,150 --> 00:04:16,690 We we deliver every single day. We we do the practical stuff, whether it's, um, you know, educating kids or providing care for, 41 00:04:16,690 --> 00:04:22,810 um, vulnerable people or, um, emptying bins, whatever it is, cities deliver every single day. 42 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,070 Um, and we are absolutely pleased to do that in terms of climate action as well. 43 00:04:27,340 --> 00:04:34,210 But also, you know, I think I think we are we absolutely are critical point at the moment in terms of 44 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:41,620 securing any sort of continuing global consensus around a around climate action, 45 00:04:41,620 --> 00:04:45,970 um, indeed, around a, you know, kind of international climate agreement. 46 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:53,469 Uh, the, um, the re-election of Trump will have emboldened a lot of, of climate deniers, 47 00:04:53,470 --> 00:04:58,810 a lot of those who would seek to, um, backslide or indeed follow him in withdrawing altogether. 48 00:04:59,380 --> 00:05:01,870 So there's something really critical about, actually, 49 00:05:01,870 --> 00:05:08,110 we need to be demonstrating to our citizens right now that this absolutely can make their lives better, 50 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:13,120 um, in ways that are very relevant to them and in their day to day. 51 00:05:13,420 --> 00:05:20,590 So, you know, just to give an example, in Glasgow, we know that having, um, getting, um, 52 00:05:20,630 --> 00:05:26,740 the finance that we need to deliver a retrofit will bring people's fuel bills down right now. 53 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:33,310 Um, particularly an older housing stock in our what we call our pre 1919 tenement stock. 54 00:05:33,490 --> 00:05:39,170 Um, where, you know, it's a fantastic, uh, model of, um, uh, 55 00:05:39,190 --> 00:05:46,840 kind of a mid density urban living which has survived well over 100 years for a good reason, but is thermally very, very inefficient. 56 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:53,440 Um, you know, we know we could make a big difference with that right now for people we know we could make a big difference. 57 00:05:53,650 --> 00:05:58,780 And we have a plan to transition the entire city to renewable source heat networks. 58 00:05:59,050 --> 00:06:02,650 We know how to do it. Um, we know it would make a big difference. 59 00:06:02,890 --> 00:06:10,030 Um, as we, um, do a major shift towards, uh, decarbonised transportation and mobility, 60 00:06:10,210 --> 00:06:16,180 uh, a combination of much better public transport and, um, active travel infrastructure. 61 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:21,740 We are already investing in. All of that and making people's lives better as a consequence. 62 00:06:21,980 --> 00:06:26,000 But to do it on the scale that we need to do it for the planet. 63 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:33,110 We also need to the finance. And in order to do it so it you know, the idea. 64 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:40,340 We're still it's very frustrating to watch the discussions something like 26 where it 65 00:06:40,340 --> 00:06:46,640 national governments it where states are still talking about moving to implementation. 66 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:57,200 Um the the you 20 summit, which is an urban parallel to the G20 in Rio, which happened at the same time as, uh, Cop 29. 67 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:58,939 We are already on implementation. 68 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:07,579 We're talking, you know, the cities are actually sharing practical learning and examples with each other around delivery and finance and, 69 00:07:07,580 --> 00:07:15,440 and the the difference that that's making for citizens and how you maximise multiple benefits 70 00:07:15,890 --> 00:07:20,900 for every single pound or dollar or euro or whatever it is you're spending for delivery. 71 00:07:21,050 --> 00:07:28,820 How do you then actually also address, um, some of the, some of the deep seated inequalities that all of our cities contend with, for example. 72 00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:32,720 And so so that's why finance matters so much. 73 00:07:33,060 --> 00:07:42,170 Uh, we we can show people we have the ability to show people right now that, um, climate action, climate delivery can make their lives better. 74 00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:49,430 And for a whole number of reasons, we need to do that because people have been, um, going through a [INAUDIBLE] of a rough time recently. 75 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:59,900 Um, because they are vulnerable to the kind of side and voices of, of climate denial, um, who are saying this is too expensive, we can't afford this. 76 00:08:00,140 --> 00:08:09,020 Um, you should be getting something else instead. We need to be able to demonstrate, um, that actually, this is the something else. 77 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:12,379 This is for you. Uh, it's not just abstract. 78 00:08:12,380 --> 00:08:17,000 It's, um. It's not just for, um, for something that's in the future. 79 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,739 It's. It's for the heat and. No. That's a really interesting point. 80 00:08:21,740 --> 00:08:29,420 And just going back actually to you mentioned during the scale of finance, a required and even know for Glasgow alone it's a significant amount. 81 00:08:29,450 --> 00:08:32,450 I think you said was a 40 billion. Is that correct? 82 00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:38,790 Yeah. So we we started off um with an estimate of between 30 and 40 billion. 83 00:08:38,810 --> 00:08:48,710 We've made progress from there. And we're now we depending on on and how fast we're able to go over the next few years between 27. 84 00:08:48,980 --> 00:08:55,580 Um, no. Sorry. 24 and a 30 something billion we're looking at still for delivery. 85 00:08:55,580 --> 00:09:00,920 But a lot of that depends on the piece of delivery. So if we want to go faster, it'll cost a bit more. 86 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:08,120 But then we get the outcomes more quickly. Um, or we could spend a bit less, but we don't get the outcomes as quickly as we'd like. 87 00:09:08,660 --> 00:09:11,720 But either we it's a lot of money. Yeah. 88 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:16,730 Yeah. Significant and just and Glasgow is obviously a global North city. 89 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:22,910 How does how does the climate finance kind of differ in global South cities in terms of needs. 90 00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:29,510 So I think the the for global South cities the adaptation need is often much more urgent. 91 00:09:29,810 --> 00:09:39,190 Um than it is for global north cities. Um, it's not that we don't have an adaptation need here, but the reality is that while we do have, um, 92 00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:45,980 increasing flood risk and flood incidents in Glasgow, um, at the moment it's causing inconvenience. 93 00:09:46,190 --> 00:09:53,180 It's not killing people. People, you know, people aren't being washed away in Glasgow by by floodwaters. 94 00:09:53,390 --> 00:10:02,000 People aren't dying from extreme heat. Um, you know, we're not, um, people aren't, um, having their entire livelihoods and homes lost in mudslides. 95 00:10:02,140 --> 00:10:07,130 That's happening in the Global South all the time and actually has been for a number of years. 96 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:16,820 Um, so the need for, um, for adaptation, um, for both for heat and for flooding, particularly um, 97 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:23,690 in the global South is is urgent and is existential in a way that in the global North it's very, very important. 98 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:29,800 And and we need to we can't forget adaptation. Um, it often gets forgotten about in the conversation. 99 00:10:29,810 --> 00:10:33,350 Adaptation needs to be hand in hand with mitigation. 100 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:42,230 Um, but it's it isn't. Um, I think for most global North cities, there isn't that immediate sense of existential urgency. 101 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:53,690 Adaptation, though, is often more difficult to to get the finance for because there are less obvious, um, returns for an investor. 102 00:10:53,870 --> 00:10:59,629 Um, in in adaptation and resilience and than that are for, um, for mitigation. 103 00:10:59,630 --> 00:11:04,460 So for example um heat transition there's other are obvious ways there. 104 00:11:04,850 --> 00:11:09,310 But I think of something like um like like energy retrofit of, 105 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:17,660 of existing homes and buildings and it's perhaps it's an, it's in both it's both the adaptation and mitigation space. 106 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:26,420 Um, and it's, it's probably the single most expensive piece of work that we need to do in Glasgow across the Glasgow Metropolitan Region. 107 00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:36,530 We've costed that up at about £11 billion, um, of worth of work in, um, over about a 400,000 existing homes. 108 00:11:37,370 --> 00:11:44,389 And where how do we how do we create a financial package for an investor that, 109 00:11:44,390 --> 00:11:49,430 um, you know, delivers them that kind of return on patient capital for that? 110 00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:54,170 Um, you know, there's so that's one of the things that we are working on in Glasgow. 111 00:11:54,440 --> 00:12:02,629 We've got a wee bit more time to work our way through that. And in actual fact, we are working just now, um, as a city, we've invested in, um, 112 00:12:02,630 --> 00:12:11,180 in creating the capacity to build financial models that'll allow us to have the confidence to go into investor partnerships on, 113 00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:16,190 uh, for, for climate interventions. The global South doesn't have that luxury. 114 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:23,980 Um, and, and the needs that intervention know and, and the need, um, governments to step in because see, 115 00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:29,020 this is a space where private finance is going to be slower and more reluctant to step in. 116 00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:35,599 There are some things where it's going to have to be public money in, in one form and another, 117 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,730 whether it's coming from national governments, from the world Bank, for example, that just steps in and does this stuff. 118 00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:47,210 Um, and as I see at the moment, it certainly feels like, um, the amount that they're talking about is falling far short of what's needed. 119 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:48,020 Yeah. 120 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:57,350 And there's a noticeable, you know, climate investment gap, with cities worldwide receiving around 7 or 8% of the climate finance currently required. 121 00:12:57,710 --> 00:13:03,800 What do you think are some of the broader kind of challenges that cities face when trying to secure climate finance? 122 00:13:05,450 --> 00:13:09,560 So, um, there's quite a few, uh, capacity is one. 123 00:13:09,830 --> 00:13:18,140 Um, cities are we are, by and large, um, not set up to deal with finance at that scale. 124 00:13:18,770 --> 00:13:28,050 Um, so to put it. Into context in Glasgow in recent years, we settled on a historic, um. 125 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,950 Discrimination issue which which my administration inherited. 126 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,420 Um, um, which which I took on when I became leader of the city and said, 127 00:13:36,570 --> 00:13:41,490 we are going to settle with these women who have been discriminated against an equal pay case. 128 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:49,140 Um, and the, the, the settlement ultimately was, um, in the region of £750 million. 129 00:13:49,440 --> 00:14:00,090 Um, that was huge. Uh, that was probably, you know, the biggest, um, financial deal that we had done as a city. 130 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:09,600 Um, and one of the biggest financial interventions, uh, that we ever had to negotiate and, um, do all the work around, uh, you know, 131 00:14:10,050 --> 00:14:18,090 making sure that we, we first of all, we could get the resource in, but also that it was sustainable for us to pay that, uh, back over a long period. 132 00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:21,629 And, you know, it was it was a massive thing at the time. 133 00:14:21,630 --> 00:14:28,050 And we were kind of like, oh, my God, you know, this is such a huge amount of money, £750 million not to underplay that. 134 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,180 That's a very small amount compared to what we're talking about for major climate interventions. 135 00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:39,690 It's it's actually a drop in the ocean, um, for the scale and pace that we need to go a lot to, 136 00:14:39,690 --> 00:14:44,370 um, to deliver, uh, heat and energy transition, for example, across the city. 137 00:14:44,850 --> 00:14:48,900 So we, um, and for us, that 750 million was a big deal. 138 00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:51,180 Most cities don't have folk. 139 00:14:51,600 --> 00:15:01,530 Um, because it's it's not something that we ordinarily have to do who are dealing with, um, kind of finance at that scale and at that level, 140 00:15:01,530 --> 00:15:10,980 getting into the multiple billions, um, the investment, the work that we do all the more cities are very, um, well versed in inward investment. 141 00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:16,649 It tends to be more in the space of things like, um, you know, maybe new housing, um, 142 00:15:16,650 --> 00:15:23,820 or, um, a new a new hotel or, uh, you know, that new office space, that kind of thing. 143 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:34,320 It's often, um, in real estate, um, is it's not in, um, the often in the kind of scale of infrastructure change that we're talking about. 144 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:42,630 What actually of the, the very systems or systems that we function on are going to have to change quite rapidly. 145 00:15:43,140 --> 00:15:53,040 So there's a capacity, a knowledge, a skills issue there, which cities who are, um, able to are moving very fast to try and address. 146 00:15:53,310 --> 00:15:58,590 Um, and we can do that actually in partnership with, with institutional and private investors. 147 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:06,150 But that's a challenge to begin with. Um, and there's a thing that my finance director always says to me, we can and you can borrow the money. 148 00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:08,700 It's paying it back. That's the, the issue. 149 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:16,530 You know, at the end of all of this, we still have to deliver all those public services and we need to have the confidence, um, 150 00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:19,200 going into any investor partnership that, 151 00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:25,409 that those public services are not going to be affected because that is that's first and foremost what we're here to do. 152 00:16:25,410 --> 00:16:30,570 That's our job. We have statutory duties that we have to deliver as a local authority. 153 00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:33,210 Um, and all cities are in that position. 154 00:16:33,540 --> 00:16:42,600 Um, so there is something about having the confidence that we can do this, that we can enter into financial deals with those, 155 00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:50,370 um, it coming back to bite our services and our citizens, um, where they end up losing out. 156 00:16:50,370 --> 00:16:54,060 Because what we want is to make sure that there are multiple benefits. 157 00:16:54,630 --> 00:17:02,970 Um, and I suppose that's the other the other part of it is that, um, the planning is, uh, is really a big, 158 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:10,560 a big piece of work and a big ask, uh, to make sure, you know, if we're going to have this just transition that we all aspire to. 159 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,660 Um, and indeed is absolutely essential that it needs to be properly planned. 160 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:21,060 We need clarity about what it is we're delivering, what outcomes we're getting from that. 161 00:17:21,330 --> 00:17:25,830 Obviously, in terms of, um, the contribution we'll make to reducing our emissions, 162 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:34,110 but also the contribution, albeit to, um, making, uh, places and lives better in all of our cities. 163 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:41,940 Um, so we need clarity around that. And then I think there is just this kind of it culturally, um, 164 00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:47,670 big financial institutions don't really look to cities as the place to make investments. 165 00:17:47,970 --> 00:17:50,490 Um, and so there's relationship building there. 166 00:17:50,490 --> 00:18:01,950 There's, um, the, there's a real sort of cultural shift to happen whereby, um, cities and the world of finance are able to talk to each other, 167 00:18:01,950 --> 00:18:07,740 to understand each other, to understand each other's needs and requirements and, and to be able to meet in the middle. 168 00:18:08,130 --> 00:18:16,140 Um, you know, I think I've, I've said in the past, you know, we, um, we all need to get over ourselves a little bit. 169 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,380 So the public sector needs to realise that we are not. 170 00:18:19,910 --> 00:18:30,470 The only ones, um, that are that care about good outcomes for the environment and for for the economy and for, um, for for social outcomes. 171 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,079 Um, that actually there are plenty investors out there who maybe are thinking about those things as well. 172 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,790 And in fact, that's more and more common. 173 00:18:38,450 --> 00:18:48,200 Um, but equally, the private sector, um, needs to understand that the public sector, um, can be effective and that we can deliver the, um, you know, 174 00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:51,470 the effective implementation isn't, uh, uh, 175 00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:57,260 the prerogative of the private sector that we could we we are capable of doing it as well and indeed have done. 176 00:18:57,620 --> 00:19:03,109 Um, and I would argue that, uh, for all, um, its faults and failures in, 177 00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:07,870 in many places it's been cities who demonstrated throughout the Covid pandemic, uh, 178 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,240 that we are able to deliver, um, to, to move quickly, 179 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:17,750 to adapt quickly and to support our populations in times of crisis and make sure that we we come out the other side. 180 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:24,620 Um, so I think, um, more and more we are able to find that common space, but there's still work to be done there. 181 00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:27,950 Um, and finally, I think national governments still don't get it. 182 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:35,500 National governments are still they're very focussed on doing things at national level and creating national programs and frankly, 183 00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:44,090 slowing everything up. Um, they need to be devolving, um, levers and resources to cities and let cities get on with this, 184 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:51,890 because cities actually are in the position to do the delivery that meeting nationally set targets demands. 185 00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:57,610 And because it isn't happening right now without the urban transition governments. 186 00:19:57,610 --> 00:20:05,180 So governments in the case I'm talking about, both the UK and Scottish governments are not going to be able to meet their targets. 187 00:20:05,390 --> 00:20:09,830 Um, but they're not they're still not connecting with the urban transition enough. 188 00:20:09,980 --> 00:20:14,150 They're not seeing it as the solution. Um, that it is. 189 00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:17,470 And that they need to be seeing us. So there's quite a lot in there. 190 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:24,470 There's a whole number of things just now that are standing in the way of the, the money reaching the cities in the way that it needs to. 191 00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:33,110 But it is in everyone's interests for finance to be, to be flowing to the cities much more readily and much more quickly than it is just now. 192 00:20:34,150 --> 00:20:40,719 And do you think that, you know, with many cities around the world starting to, you know, come to grips with the different skills, 193 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,420 as you mentioned and knowledge that's required and the confidence as well to, to secure that investment. 194 00:20:47,260 --> 00:20:52,930 A lot of cities are being quite proactive in learning from each other and looking at best practice. 195 00:20:53,380 --> 00:21:00,580 How can cities effectively work together through different networks, such as the C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group? 196 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:08,830 You know, where there are opportunities to share that best practice to to mobilise climate finance and then deliver on their climate ambitions. 197 00:21:09,550 --> 00:21:16,840 We wouldn't have made the progress we've made in Glasgow in the past, um, sort of five years, if it hadn't been for the, 198 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,989 um, the connections that we've made with other cities through those global networks like C40, 199 00:21:22,990 --> 00:21:27,610 like Italy, um, like the U20 and UN, many others, in fact, 200 00:21:27,610 --> 00:21:33,100 the I really should mention the Global Resilient Cities Network since I am the chair of that. 201 00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:40,120 Um, so the Global Resilient Cities Network, which is working in that very specific space of adaptation and resilience and really, 202 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:48,820 um, bringing that particular perspective in to, um, to make sure that it's on the table along with, with mitigation. 203 00:21:49,150 --> 00:21:57,160 Um, so, you know, we've we've certainly learned an enormous amount and been able to grow at a much faster pace than we would have done otherwise. 204 00:21:57,790 --> 00:22:01,990 Specifically on financial models, we've learned very closely from Bristol. 205 00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:08,470 Um, um, worked really closely with them. Their Bristol Leap model has, um, as just a one. 206 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:15,580 Um, I think it was at the World Economic Forum, just a was uh, one won some awards and was acknowledged as being a real pioneer. 207 00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:22,570 Um, we are working just now to create a Glasgow version of that, not just, um, you know, 208 00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:28,750 to adopt what they've done, to learn from it and have one that suits our particular circumstances as a city. 209 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,400 We're very different from Bristol in a lot of ways. Um, but they've done amazing work. 210 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:39,490 Uh, they've done some really interesting work around financial models in London as well with their London Edge model, 211 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:42,490 which is a different kind of a model. It's an investment vehicle. 212 00:22:42,790 --> 00:22:49,450 Um, the Bristol Leap is a delivery vehicle. Um, on energy transition particularly. 213 00:22:49,630 --> 00:23:01,300 Um, so loads to learn from there. Um, you know, real and a Nairobi and a couple of other cities are, um, piloting, uh, biodiversity credits. 214 00:23:01,630 --> 00:23:07,030 Um, a scheme just now which, uh, I think is, is really interesting. 215 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:15,180 Um, as something we are looking at in Glasgow, which is, um, you know, we are cities have, um, are able to, uh, 216 00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:27,280 actually use our existing biodiversity as well as our plans for improving it, uh, to finance, uh, future investment in biodiversity, for example. 217 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,330 Um, so, so there's all sorts of incredible stuff going on in cities. 218 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:40,540 Um, and it's, it is those networks through talking to each other, sharing best practice that will constantly improve our delivery, improve outcomes. 219 00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:49,239 Um, and as I see, I think improve our, um, our offer in terms of, uh, investable propositions to, 220 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:54,040 um, to, to the investors that are out there to the climate finance that's out there. 221 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:59,679 And do you think them, without that kind of knowledge around climate finance and sharing, 222 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:08,850 that they can have skills and building that confidence that without that it will not really be possible to ehm, implement their climate actions. 223 00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:13,960 So for example, developing a sustained, unpredictable flow of climate finance. 224 00:24:14,530 --> 00:24:20,920 So do you think that that's not going to be likely without kind of cities learning from each other, sharing and kind of building that momentum? 225 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:29,290 It will certainly be much, much harder. I think if cities are going out there and and all having to act on their own without the, um, 226 00:24:29,290 --> 00:24:35,080 the knowledge that they're, we're not on our own, that this is happening, that we're all grappling with this right now. 227 00:24:35,290 --> 00:24:40,599 And there's a lot to share and a lot to learn. Um, so the Resilient Cities Network, for example, 228 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:47,830 has all sorts of learning models that the chief resilience officers in the member cities are able to tap into. 229 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,070 Um, either online or connecting with each other. 230 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:58,690 Um, and really get that learning, um, uh, get access to it quickly and easily and then apply it, 231 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,560 um, and get, get support to apply it to, to their own cities. 232 00:25:02,770 --> 00:25:07,640 Um, yeah. That's, that's just one example without the finance. 233 00:25:07,660 --> 00:25:16,180 It's not that cities won't be delivering climate action. We are and we will, but the scale and the pace of it isn't going to be what's needed. 234 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,070 Um, you know, if we're serious on collectively serious and national governments are serious about, 235 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:27,099 um, at the very least, uh, still trying to keep 1.5 in our sights. 236 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:33,260 Um, but, uh, but also planning for, um, for for city to. 237 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,680 And then that, you know, the impacts that that would have that we, we have to protect people from. 238 00:25:39,010 --> 00:25:48,880 And if we are serious about that, and I think, um, you know, most of the governments that got to 89, um, are sincere, 239 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,550 uh, even if they're not, they haven't quite got their heads round what they really need to be doing it. 240 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,110 Um, then it is in everybody's interest for the cities to be delivered in at scale. 241 00:25:59,470 --> 00:26:03,970 Um, and therefore, it's in everyone's interest for the financial force to reach cities. 242 00:26:04,150 --> 00:26:10,330 And if that sometimes means that they're bypassing national governments or that they're going straight through national governments to cities, 243 00:26:10,420 --> 00:26:13,540 then that's the way that it needs to happen. Um, okay. 244 00:26:14,050 --> 00:26:19,690 And there are multiple approaches that, you know, cities are currently taking to secure that climate finance that's required. 245 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,290 You know, there's the regional development funding approach, which, you know, Melbourne, 246 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:28,300 City of Melbourne adopted to implement cycling infrastructure during the pandemic. 247 00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:32,800 And there's green bonds, which Cape Town has adopted to implement adaptation type projects. 248 00:26:33,010 --> 00:26:35,680 So there are different approaches that cities are taking. 249 00:26:36,130 --> 00:26:42,610 Uh, I'd be interested to get your view on, um, from your experience, you know, how are cities accessing this climate finance at the moment? 250 00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:48,400 You know, going above and beyond, as you said, the critical kind of public services that, you know, you have to kind of protect. 251 00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:54,490 Um, so how are cities accessing climate finance? What kind of approaches are they taking in your, in your view? 252 00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:56,950 So you've mentioned a couple already. 253 00:26:56,950 --> 00:27:09,130 There's um green bonds and, and um, and, and variations on those uh, again sort of um, biodiversity and, and um, and, 254 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:16,090 and kind of green space bonds as a, you know, particularly focusing on that side of things is another emerging model. 255 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:24,550 Um, there's recognising that, um, sequestration, uh, and, and um, 256 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:32,079 and kind of carbon credits are a reality and that a lot of companies are a are investing in, 257 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,020 not, uh, as a bridge to their own, uh, decarbonisation, recognising that it's not going to happen immediately. 258 00:27:38,020 --> 00:27:40,330 So they're investing in carbon credits, for example, 259 00:27:40,690 --> 00:27:47,380 cities could be in a space with the right framework and the right assurances, uh, to benefit from that as well. 260 00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:56,650 Um, through through our own investment to be able to help, um, the private sector, uh, demonstrate that their, 261 00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:02,770 uh, their tax treatment and carbon credit efforts are, are legitimate and are credible. 262 00:28:03,130 --> 00:28:11,950 Um, there are the a the kinds of models that we are exploring in Glasgow, which we think are ones that we could make work for us. 263 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:18,130 We are, um, the, you know, the, the investment vehicle, for example, is a kind of, 264 00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:24,430 um, uh, uh, I put a shared pot that different projects can bid into. 265 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:34,689 Um, the delivery vehicle is, uh, a kind of a partnership with a company, with the private sector that also has the expertise to actually do the work. 266 00:28:34,690 --> 00:28:40,520 So, you know, um, dig up your streets, put in physically put in heat networks and connect buildings to it. 267 00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:46,510 That's the kind of thing that's going to be happening all over the all over our cities in the coming years. 268 00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:51,210 Um, and again, we, we, we need the technical expertise to be able to do that. 269 00:28:51,220 --> 00:28:56,680 So if we're going to be going into relationships with folks with the technical expertise, then, um, 270 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,350 maybe that are, uh, partnerships that can be done around the investment flows that are needed for that as well. 271 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:12,370 Um, you know, in the end, though, however, we frame these things, the ultimately our borrowing, you know, that's what it comes down to. 272 00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:19,330 It is we are borrowing, um, and we're using our assets, whatever assets we've got as a city. 273 00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:27,100 Um, as the, the security or for, for that borrowing, um, or us as the leverage for that borrowing. 274 00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:33,940 Um, and, and that's the, the challenging bit. And that I think, is where we could do with national governments, um, 275 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,620 standing beside and behind us, um, as a, as guarantors, almost as you like that seeing. 276 00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:49,540 Yes. This is ah, um, this is a safe investment and we will we will make sure that it remains a safe investment. 277 00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:54,040 Uh, you know, should should the worst come to the worst in a city, which actually, 278 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,500 I don't think is something that, um, you know, is something we're going to see happening very often. 279 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:07,570 Um, but should cities reach the point where they're not able to meet their obligations in terms of the borrowing, um, 280 00:30:07,570 --> 00:30:15,890 that national governments are there to, to stand behind them, recognising the all of this infrastructure, all of this investment isn't for nothing. 281 00:30:15,910 --> 00:30:26,770 It is actually, you know, it's. This is is an existential necessity, but it is also the biggest opportunity that we've got, um, climate action. 282 00:30:26,770 --> 00:30:33,850 And I don't think we're being, um, I, I don't think that national leaders are seeing that often enough. 283 00:30:34,270 --> 00:30:37,390 Um, I think there's too many of them trying to play it down. 284 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,819 You know, Sir Keir Starmer said that, um, 285 00:30:39,820 --> 00:30:46,120 cop 29 that the that the UK government could deliver on its climate objectives without disrupting people's lives. 286 00:30:46,690 --> 00:30:51,010 It's just not true. Do we have you know, of course we have to to shock to people's lives. 287 00:30:51,760 --> 00:31:01,210 Retrofitting, um, uh, 120 year old sandstone tenement is going to be disruptive for the people who live in that, um, you know, 288 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:07,660 that are going to have to be expectations around culture change and behaviour change in the and mobility within our cities, 289 00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:13,120 the way that people move around, the way that they, um, access transport, the kinds of transport that they use. 290 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,509 And we yeah, we are going to disrupt people's lives. 291 00:31:16,510 --> 00:31:19,750 We are going to have to ask people to change the way that we behave. 292 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:27,790 And we are literally have to going to have to go into their homes, um, in order to, to do some of the key elements of that urban transition. 293 00:31:28,450 --> 00:31:33,459 The point is, though, that it will be worth it, that the outcomes of that disruption, 294 00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:39,040 if we do this right, it will actually has the potential to make people's lives better. 295 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,630 It improves their quality of life to improve their their health and their wellbeing. 296 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:52,239 Um, and to, um, actually move us toward, towards a, an economy that's a much more sustainable in terms of the environment, 297 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,890 but also much more sustainable and much more equitable in terms of the way that it impacts on, 298 00:31:57,100 --> 00:32:00,790 um, our communities and on, um, people's quality of life. 299 00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:06,340 And Glasgow has been quite exceptionally proactive in exploring that green investment. 300 00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:12,100 But alongside the just transition as well, um, with the recent equity investment team plans. 301 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,000 I just as we wrap up, 302 00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:21,700 what can what kind of lessons have been learned to date from from Glasgow's experience that could be shared with other cities around the world? 303 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:29,589 If there was a lesson that you could share around either, um, setting up the a green investment team or different types of funding, 304 00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:34,120 different types of projects or programmes, what would that be that that you could share with other cities? 305 00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:42,370 So I think a couple of things is, um, relatively small amounts of investment by you as a city, um, 306 00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:47,139 can make a big difference in terms of building your capacity in terms of getting 307 00:32:47,140 --> 00:32:51,970 you into a place as a city where you've got that assurance and confidence, 308 00:32:52,270 --> 00:33:01,360 um, that you can go ahead and enter into, um, you know, invest or partnerships at a scale that you previously might not have been used to. 309 00:33:01,660 --> 00:33:06,040 Uh, so in Glasgow, we've committed, um, uh, just recently. 310 00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:09,370 It's not it's not the first investment, but it's the biggest one so far. 311 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:16,719 We've committed, uh, £4 million, uh, to grow our capacity to both internally, but also to, um, 312 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:24,130 where we need to buy in some external capacity, particularly around legal and procurement, uh, knowledge. 313 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:33,070 Um, and that, uh, is, is already putting us in a place where, um, we, we know that we're on the right track. 314 00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:37,090 Uh, whereas maybe two years ago, we were still a bit kind of. 315 00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:42,550 Okay, we think that we're in the right space, but really, are we having the right conversations? 316 00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:50,860 Do we really know what the needs are on either side? Um, so, so that relatively small amounts of investment can make the difference? 317 00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:58,730 Um. Take a bit of time. You know, a lot of us have set very, very ambitious targets, and I think that's really important. 318 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:07,190 Cities, by and large, are more ambitious and, and, um, are driving forward ahead of, um, of national governments. 319 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,630 Um, and we're pulling national governments behind us, which is really important. 320 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,490 Uh, but we're also a lot of us looking at these targets and going, oh, my God, the clock is ticking. 321 00:34:16,820 --> 00:34:20,510 Um, don't panic, panic a bit. 322 00:34:20,810 --> 00:34:24,290 Um, because this is a subject that requires urgency. 323 00:34:24,530 --> 00:34:31,429 Um, but don't panic. Take the time that you need to get yourself into the right place so that when you go, um, 324 00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:36,560 you can you can go with confidence and you're not having to then take steps back all the time. 325 00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:45,740 Um, treat it as an iterative process. Um, and again, you know, keep checking your pull more because you're going along. 326 00:34:46,220 --> 00:34:52,460 Um, but I think also just, uh, just, you know, if you're not talking to other cities just now, do it. 327 00:34:52,850 --> 00:34:58,020 Um, get get get in with these networks. Um, get get active. 328 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,130 Um, I both at political and officer level. 329 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:09,920 And because it is the it is the best tonic to be around other cities and to to hear the discussion is, you know, for me, 330 00:35:10,220 --> 00:35:19,730 looking at what was happening in 29 and feeling it's very easy to feel very low and very despondent about what feels like a lack of progress. 331 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,620 Um, when you're around cities, 332 00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:28,280 you come out with a spring in your step because cities are full of purpose and there's real solidarity between cities on this. 333 00:35:28,580 --> 00:35:38,370 Um, and and real, um, shared focus on implementation, on delivery, on our citizens, um, as well as on the planet. 334 00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:45,680 And, um, so, yeah, if, if you're, if you're feeling a bit lost and a bit isolated in this space, you don't have to be. 335 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:53,870 And there are lots of city networks there. We are a relatively small investment will bring you big returns in terms of partnership and learning and, 336 00:35:53,870 --> 00:36:00,439 um, experience and helping to mobilise at scale, absolutely at scale and at peace. 337 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:06,290 And in, in the UK particularly, I mean I would I'll always plug the um, the global Resilient Cities network. 338 00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:13,790 But I would also mention um CCI, the um, the Cities Commission for fine, um, Cities Commission for Climate Investment. 339 00:36:14,090 --> 00:36:22,790 And that's why we call it CCI. It's much easier. Um, which came out of Cop26, which happened in Glasgow, of course, very much led by cities. 340 00:36:22,970 --> 00:36:30,260 Um, the, the work and the modelling that CCI are doing and which is quite, is quite digestible. 341 00:36:30,410 --> 00:36:35,210 It's kind of bite sized. You know, the net zero neighbourhood model, for example, 342 00:36:35,420 --> 00:36:41,720 is a we the even smaller cities or cities who are up against it financially can look and go, right. 343 00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:45,170 Yeah, we could do that. Actually. That's something we could take on. 344 00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:49,880 Um, and delivered. And it is that kind of iterative, incremental process. 345 00:36:50,060 --> 00:36:59,299 None of us are going to be able to do this in one go. Um, but, uh, you know, that that if we do need to do it at peace and scale, um, 346 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:04,430 there are a lot of folk there who are in developing ways that are allowing us to 347 00:37:04,430 --> 00:37:09,650 up the pace and scale in a way that's manageable and is is within our grasp. 348 00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:12,230 Um, and it's not going to leave us kind of, um, 349 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:18,680 floundering and in a space where as a see our public services and our citizens are being put at risk as a consequence. 350 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,490 That's great. Susan. Thank you so much for your time and your insights. 351 00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:31,520 It's been fascinating to hear, uh, your perspective on sort of financing urban climate action and the kind of ambitious role that 352 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,780 the Glasgow City Council is also planning to reduce emissions and achieve net zero targets. 353 00:37:36,780 --> 00:37:47,450 So thank you very much. Thank you. Good to speak to you. Thank you for listening. 354 00:37:47,660 --> 00:37:53,810 In our next episode, I will be speaking to Mark Royce, executive director of C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group. 355 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,280 We'll be reflecting on Cop 29 and exploring both the progress made, 356 00:37:58,370 --> 00:38:02,780 as well as the key challenges that cities must overcome to deliver on their climate commitments.