[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Welcome to the fourth episode of the University of Oxford Spoke 29 podcast series on sustainable cities.
My name is Doctor Catherine Maxwell, and today I'll be speaking to Mark Wates, executive director of C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group.
We'll be reflecting on Cop 29, exploring the increasing role of cities within the international climate negotiations,
and discussing some of the challenges that cities must overcome in order to deliver on ambitious climate action.
Welcome to the podcast, Mark. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you.
It's real pleasure. So let's get started then.
Uh, so cop 29 this year, you know, really comes at quite, uh, kind a critical moment in time.
And without ambitious commitment to climate action,
it's going to be increasingly unlikely that countries and cities will be able to limit global warming and align with the Paris Agreement objectives.
So with the Cop 29 negotiations now concluded, what, in your view, are the key implications of the climate negotiations for cities specifically?
Well, I mean, he was obviously it was a disappointing cult, but then it was never expected to deliver a huge amount.
You know, essentially we have, um, a host nation whose purpose for hosting the cup was to stop there being any really major progress.
I think from it, from a city perspective. The more, more important thing was the outcome of the previous cop from from Cop 28,
which both for the first time in Chinese language on moving away from fossil fuels and and had the Champ initiative.
Now 74 countries that have committed as they developed the new national climate plans and, crucially,
implement them to work with all layers of government, subnational government as they as they deliver them.
And that's where we're seeing real signs of progress and some, some hope.
You know, obviously we couldn't avoid that. Ignore that.
The reality that everything got a lot more difficult with the elections across the world this year, particularly in the US.
And it's it makes it very hard to have negotiated progress on climate when the world's richest, most powerful nation,
or at least the federal government of that nation, is not even going to be at the table, let alone being supportive.
Yeah. And as you mentioned in champ B, there are no initiatives,
quite a few initiatives that are kind of focussed on encouraging that local national government collaboration on key climate issues.
It'd be good to learn a little bit more about champ then in terms of how does this actually enhance the
collaboration between local and national government in terms of planning and in implementing kind of climate action?
So I think in that we'll see how that pans out in each individual country,
because the commitment on champ is to work together in delivering Paris compliant, um.
Uh, climate action, I think, you know, and that's a, that's a critical thing. It's not it's not a commitment that's just about.
Creating a space where the voice of subnational actors is heard or, um,
simply including in some way matters in in cos it's it's about delivering climate action consistent with the Paris Agreement in each country.
The size that we've seen so far been good. So, you know, Brazil's new NDC, which both had a tougher emission reduction target,
obviously on the back of really successful progress in the first couple of years of Lula's government pushing back deforestation in the Amazon,
which is so critical in Brazil that enshrined within that that NDC, that national climate plan is a big blue box about climate federalism, which is.
Not just a commitment because it's already happening.
That the way that Brazil is organising, planning and delivery of its climate action is for the different layers of government,
the federal government, the national government, working with, with, given us working with mayors to deliver.
And we've seen it result in real money in real programs.
The Green Resilient Cities program that is relatively well funded, a big new fund for electrifying buses in cities already starting to be delivered.
And I think actually Brazil's setting a pretty good model. And is there the host of the next cop?
This gives some really good reason for hope on, you know, in addition to the other countries that have done similar things.
And in the UK, you know, was really pleased to see the UK's new commitment, which is also become a signatory of companies.
Also now looking at how how it's going to deliver with that kind of engagement of all levels of government in mind.
And in your view? How do you think Culp can strengthen the effectiveness of multi-level governance?
And so you referred to Brazil and the different layers of government.
Do you know, how would you think Cop can strengthen the effectiveness of these different layers of government working together?
And have there been any broader kind of lessons learned from either coal or other global climate conferences?
We've definitely got to have a reform, a pretty big reform, of course.
So unless they move away from being all about negotiations between hundred and 92 countries and towards implementation of climate action,
they're never going to deliver what's needed to to tackle the climate crisis.
I think there's some hope of that happening.
Um, we saw for the first time in Dubai the first two days of that cop having a huge gathering at local action summits of the leaders of cities,
of provinces, states, um, in big numbers, talking about the action that they're taking.
And actually, I think we need to go further than that with the next cop.
Now, really where we want cops to be is that every party and I here, I don't mean the parties as they currently know the nation states,
and I also mean the subnational governments and in in telling businesses and those who also have a stake in a responsibility coming to each cop,
reporting on what they've done to deliver against their science base Paris Agreement targets in the previous year,
and then setting out what they're going to do in the next year, not negotiating about sort of notional things that they might do in 20 years time, uh,
and which they like country will only do if country exit or something else,
but instead focusing on the plan and the delivery for what each of the parties are willing to do.
And here I think this subnational sector, particularly C40 cities, can really help because that's how we're already set up.
You know, to be in C40, you've got to have a Paris aligned plan.
You've got to be taking measurable action against the each year.
And if you don't deliver against that action, then you risk losing your membership of the club.
Which means we're ready to say, you know, we'll come to the next cop and start that process of,
let's say, what we did in the last year and what we're going to do in the next year.
And just picking up on your point there around the focusing more on the delivery of climate action.
You know, many cities, as you see, are now delivering on their climate action plans with, you know, concrete projects and programs on the ground.
What are some of the sort of challenges that cities are currently facing in, you know,
not only reducing their emissions, but also strengthening and enhancing their resilience?
Well, I'm the biggest one remains that the fossil fuel industry is actively trying to block climate action.
And you see that affecting city policy delivery more and more, whether it's the funding of often actually highly affected.
One has to say disinformation, misinformation that turns public opinion against things that are obviously public goods,
cleaning the air, uh, improving the supply of energy, improving energy efficiency of buildings, etc.
So we've seen that we saw in London.
Overcome in the end with the kind of huge, organised pushback against the expansion of the Clean Air Zone in London, US.
We see it in lots of American cities and even sometimes quite small towns, when they they plan to bring in new,
very sensible regulations that new buildings should have to connect to a renewable energy supply, not a gas supply or a fossil fuel supply.
Huge amounts of money from the fossil fuel energy industry coming in to try and prevent that measure being introduced.
Lots of other examples around the globe so that that's the biggest barrier.
If it was just about making data driven decisions based on science, with the technologies we already have available, we wouldn't have a problem.
So we're got to have a fight.
I think, you know, the idea that couple of bits here is, is where national policy isn't sufficiently kind of aligned to be supportive.
And that's what champ is about, is it's it's all we're really asking for.
The city scale is, is give us the tools,
national governments to be able to do the things that city leaders are willing signed up to try and deliver around climate.
And then, as you rightly raise, there is a there's a real challenge of particularly on adaptation, finance and finance in general.
You know, that the outcome of Cop 29 was a commitment to create a pot of $300 billion a year.
Her assessment is that just city climate action requires $800 billion purely of public money each year by 2030.
So there's a huge gap, and such a small proportion of that is currently being spent on urban resilience,
despite the fact that's where the problem is biggest,
because not least, so many urban centres are on coasts and on and on rivers and have the urban heat on.
But it's also just where the densest populations off of that therefore where most people are affected by climate impacts.
And to overcome some of these challenges. How are cities working together collaboratively across, you know,
key policy domains and sectors of buildings and transport to deliver on some of their climate commitments?
Because your organisation, C40 cities, you know, it brings together cities to share knowledge based practice and climate action.
You know, what are you starting to see in terms of cities overcoming some of these challenges?
So the thinking ahead, and this is why what's been happening at city level, I think can really help change the multilateral climate action in general,
meaning that the nation states are working much better together because for a good decade now, I mean,
C40 itself is 20 years old, but for the for the last ten years, we've had a leadership standards based membership system.
So you can only be in the club if you take an action that everyone agrees is consistent with which science.
For the last five years, that's been based on the Paris Agreement, um, standards.
And we know about to ratchet up again so that it's based on the the slightly tougher standards that the United Nations secretary general's uh,
integrity Matters report, um, has, has proposed that everybody achieve.
So one, there's a there's a bedrock for collaboration that we everyone's committed to the same thing, science based climate action depending on,
you know, different targets, depending on where you started in your emissions, uh, and resilience journey.
But now we've got groups of cities within the C40, uh, in what we call accelerators.
But, you know, for example, a building, uh, accelerator where 30 or so cities have all committed at the same time that they bring in new regulations.
So all new buildings have to be zero carbon progressively over the next few years, they can share best practice between each other.
That put in a much stronger signal to markets.
You know, often it's the same companies that are operating in all these different big cities, so they can all say the big cities are moving together.
Um, at the same time, we've seen that even more kind of clearly in things like, uh,
electric bus procurement, the Latin American cities all getting together and saying,
despite the fact that European and North American manufacturers weren't interested in selling into their market,
wanting to carry on selling dirty diesel, this is actually where we buy electric now.
So either we're going to buy Chinese buses or you're going to have to start changing the business model.
So there's a there's a kind of power to shift markets and uh, and change things,
but also just that learning from each other, which I think is the, the most powerful thing of all.
He learning and sharing best practices. Yeah. Critical at the moment I think.
And just picking up on one of the big challenges that you mentioned around climate finance.
So to really effectively implement climate action, you know, that does require access to sustained climate finance.
And, you know, there is that a significant funding gap for climate action at the city level, as you mentioned.
What are the implications of the climate negotiations at Cop 29 regarding financing sustainable cities and climate action?
So I think actually the the most important thing in city climate finance is that city
governments themselves have really worked through how they can maximise the use of their own.
Revenues and ability to raise capital funding themselves.
Yes, there's absolutely that need for more funding from national governments and being able to raise money on international markets.
But where we see cities that, for example, have introduced climate budgets,
say they're marrying the annual financial budget setting process with their annual carbon budget.
So you can't pass the financial budget unless you can show how it's going to deliver the emission reductions and resilience need.
That's also now coming in in some places. So Mumbai is doing this New York.
Um, Oslo was the first. London is a version of this.
Rio in Brazil is about to do something similar.
That starts to open up lots of opportunities for funding that hadn't been considered before,
because every department in the city has to think about their their contribution.
Secondly, we go a whole groups of cities now that are divesting the pension funds,
public pension funds from fossil fuel companies and then looking for new opportunities to invest that money.
And so that is opening up new long term patient capital that can invest in green cities around the world.
And just picking up action. You're pointing there. And climate finance and the the need to strengthen and enhance the resilience within cities.
If we look at cities in the global South specifically,
who obviously experience disproportionately the negative impacts of sea level rise, more frequent climate hazards.
What impact do you think that do? Will the finance, um, agreements have on the ability of the global South cities to adapt to a changing climate?
I mean, it's absolutely essential that there is. No way that even in C40 it's quite big cities in the global South in say 40.
But even in those that, uh, the budgets are available now when it's needed to invest in the flood defences in the,
you know, often it's the it's nature based solutions that's most important.
But even that takes capital to have a massive reforesting critical protecting of mangroves,
swamps that provide all that kind of barrier against the excessive flooding or the shading that comes from trees,
you know, the cleaning out of rivers so that they can act as they should do when there there is a massive rainfall to to take the water away from,
from urban areas. And all of these things need investment now to protect cities next year, the year after five years, ten years time.
And that means so, you know, that's got to be funded upfront through multilateral banks.
That's what they're there for supporting national development banks.
Um, you know yes. As was talked about a lot of there needs to be a lot of leveraging of private capital here.
But let's be honest, it's going to have to be. It's only going to happen if there's a bedrock of strong public investment.
Um, and so yeah, I mean, ultimate is absolutely critical.
What was being talked about, it's just that the numbers were tiny in comparison to the size of the challenge.
Um, I think the the real risk is, as we've seen before, is it's not it's getting the money actually in the pot that matters.
And I know that got a lot harder when what has previously been the the world's biggest donor to such pot to the United States of America,
looks like it will pull out of the Paris Agreement and is unlikely to be to be funded.
And so I think. There's going to be a lot more focus on how cities can raise revenue themselves.
Yeah. And if we take a step back and look at some of the learnings more broadly from from Cop uh, 29 going forward,
we've discussed some of the challenges that cities are facing in terms of climate finance, which is a significant barrier.
If we look at the flip side, how can cities maximise the opportunities that Cop 29 has to offer and forward?
Well, I think that by then, primarily by looking forwards, uh, to the opportunity fantasy.
Um, because here we will have, uh,
a presidency in Brazil that has shown some real climate leadership in one very important sphere in protecting the rainforest.
Genuinely committed to what they call climate federalism.
So working through all levels of government and is absolutely committed to helping the world achieve global collaboration on climate change.
And and what cities need to do is grasp that opportunity and really be present and really show up in force.
Really come to that cop with the positive message of of what they have done to have Paris Agreement compliant plans to deliver against that,
of course, that are all succeeding. But the progress has been made and critically, that the model of collaboration.
Because ultimately what's holding us back here is that the tenacity of the fossil fuel
industry to undermine climate action has been greater than the ability of climate,
those in favour of climate action to work together, to collaborate, uh, to show a way forward.
And I think what we have in the city space is, uh, an antidote to that, uh, you know, real strength in cooperation, collaboration across the world.
And then what role has C40 cities played in kind of strengthening the voice of cities, uh, within coal.
But then in the broader kind of cop discussions and, you know, is this through more of the diplomacy and advocacy work,
or is it kind of the more knowledge sharing that you mentioned previously? Well, I think, you know, we're really proud of the role that we played,
getting and going back over the years first and just putting on the table that as the secretary general himself says,
you can't stop climate breakdown without action in cities.
That the route to overcoming the climate crisis is taking action in the places
where most people now live and where the vast majority of emissions are generated.
So one, getting that on the table, I think to then.
Now really showing. I feel what we have at C40 is an alternative model of multilateralism on climate that is working in contrast to,
despite all of the incredible efforts of everybody involved.
A model with the cops there is not working. And so I hope that we're able, therefore,
to show in a way that we are completely committed at C40 to making the Paris Agreement work and cop to be successful.
We think the only way that can happen is if they're reformed and if some part of the success.
Where multilateral naturalism remains strong and is really working I in organisations like C40 but across the city space in general.
Uh, if that is brought more to the forefront of future, uh,
climate talks climate and not the negotiations, we're not interested in being in the negotiations.
We're very interested in being in the room when the focus is on the action that's being taken and the collaboration that's needed to deliver.
You know, what is a just societal transformation to improve people's lives, protect against the, you know, the climate impacts that are coming,
whatever we do now and get our pollution down to levels that are consistent with with healthy populations.
So would you say that it's more around that, as you said, the reforms of the framework or the model of the low carbon transition generally?
Is that right? I think that's now. You know, I think I think that's the next thing that the city,
that C40 that the cities place really has to offer and is breaking into the into the international climate space.
But obviously it's you know, we're only able to offer that because we can show the basics are already there,
that our member cities have got climate plans consistent with Paris.
They're delivering them. It's transparent. You can see the progress that's been made, and that action happens for those that don't succeed,
like they lose their membership of the club, they lose the benefits of all of that kind of sharing and collaboration.
So I think in having that in place, we now want to we would like to offer that that becomes a more central part of the way that cop itself works.
And not and not not just with C40, but all the cities, all organisations, the subnational networks.
We're working constantly with Ukg, with Italy, with the UN, to to coalition with WRI and many, many others.
Um, already we'd like to bring all of that collaboration right into the centre of cops, not on the periphery, right into the centres.
And every year, not just in the years when the president is really supportive of that.
That sounds great. And just as we wrap up, uh, looking ahead at the next five, ten years, uh,
what do you think the role of cities in multilateral climate negotiations will, will look like in the future?
So to a Cop 30 and beyond. I think as.
Climate. Multilateralism now moves from negotiation to implementation.
So. The role of cities will come right into the centre right to the front,
because that's where mayors already are at, is on implementing their climate action.
What they have to offer, what matters most in the next 5 or 6 years.
So get into that critical, you know, somewhere close to halving global emissions by by 2030.
Um, because the stuff that mayors are able to really influence is really about reducing the demand for fossil fuels.
Let's. What I would hope is that.
And if we can really use that dynamism, that leadership, that collaboration to really push forward global action in the next five years,
then nation states will be in a better position to then do the heavy lifting that they have to do in the following years,
which is really about transforming energy systems and then the holiday into the holiday to deal with stuff,
um, that we've yet we've yet to kind of really get focussed on.
Great. Mark, thank you so much for your time.
Uh, and your insights on, uh, cop 29 and the broader opportunities and challenges that cities are facing in addressing the climate crisis.
So thank you very much. Thank you. Really enjoyed it.
Thank you for listening to the University of Oxford Cop 29 podcast series on sustainable cities.
We hope you enjoyed the series.
If you'd like more information on the topics covered on the podcast basis, please visit the Global Centre on Health Care and Urbanisation website.