1 00:00:13,110 --> 00:00:19,410 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Welcome to the fourth episode of the University of Oxford Spoke 29 podcast series on sustainable cities. 2 00:00:20,570 --> 00:00:28,610 My name is Doctor Catherine Maxwell, and today I'll be speaking to Mark Wates, executive director of C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group. 3 00:00:29,780 --> 00:00:36,050 We'll be reflecting on Cop 29, exploring the increasing role of cities within the international climate negotiations, 4 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:41,960 and discussing some of the challenges that cities must overcome in order to deliver on ambitious climate action. 5 00:00:48,140 --> 00:00:52,570 Welcome to the podcast, Mark. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. 6 00:00:52,580 --> 00:00:56,030 It's real pleasure. So let's get started then. 7 00:00:56,050 --> 00:01:01,820 Uh, so cop 29 this year, you know, really comes at quite, uh, kind a critical moment in time. 8 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,390 And without ambitious commitment to climate action, 9 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:14,930 it's going to be increasingly unlikely that countries and cities will be able to limit global warming and align with the Paris Agreement objectives. 10 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:26,330 So with the Cop 29 negotiations now concluded, what, in your view, are the key implications of the climate negotiations for cities specifically? 11 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:33,920 Well, I mean, he was obviously it was a disappointing cult, but then it was never expected to deliver a huge amount. 12 00:01:33,940 --> 00:01:44,680 You know, essentially we have, um, a host nation whose purpose for hosting the cup was to stop there being any really major progress. 13 00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:53,349 I think from it, from a city perspective. The more, more important thing was the outcome of the previous cop from from Cop 28, 14 00:01:53,350 --> 00:02:03,069 which both for the first time in Chinese language on moving away from fossil fuels and and had the Champ initiative. 15 00:02:03,070 --> 00:02:10,180 Now 74 countries that have committed as they developed the new national climate plans and, crucially, 16 00:02:10,180 --> 00:02:16,059 implement them to work with all layers of government, subnational government as they as they deliver them. 17 00:02:16,060 --> 00:02:21,040 And that's where we're seeing real signs of progress and some, some hope. 18 00:02:21,430 --> 00:02:24,480 You know, obviously we couldn't avoid that. Ignore that. 19 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:31,509 The reality that everything got a lot more difficult with the elections across the world this year, particularly in the US. 20 00:02:31,510 --> 00:02:40,510 And it's it makes it very hard to have negotiated progress on climate when the world's richest, most powerful nation, 21 00:02:40,510 --> 00:02:46,240 or at least the federal government of that nation, is not even going to be at the table, let alone being supportive. 22 00:02:47,510 --> 00:02:52,219 Yeah. And as you mentioned in champ B, there are no initiatives, 23 00:02:52,220 --> 00:02:59,810 quite a few initiatives that are kind of focussed on encouraging that local national government collaboration on key climate issues. 24 00:03:00,140 --> 00:03:05,270 It'd be good to learn a little bit more about champ then in terms of how does this actually enhance the 25 00:03:05,270 --> 00:03:11,150 collaboration between local and national government in terms of planning and in implementing kind of climate action? 26 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:20,069 So I think in that we'll see how that pans out in each individual country, 27 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:25,980 because the commitment on champ is to work together in delivering Paris compliant, um. 28 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:31,680 Uh, climate action, I think, you know, and that's a, that's a critical thing. It's not it's not a commitment that's just about. 29 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:38,340 Creating a space where the voice of subnational actors is heard or, um, 30 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:48,060 simply including in some way matters in in cos it's it's about delivering climate action consistent with the Paris Agreement in each country. 31 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:55,560 The size that we've seen so far been good. So, you know, Brazil's new NDC, which both had a tougher emission reduction target, 32 00:03:55,590 --> 00:04:04,200 obviously on the back of really successful progress in the first couple of years of Lula's government pushing back deforestation in the Amazon, 33 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:13,590 which is so critical in Brazil that enshrined within that that NDC, that national climate plan is a big blue box about climate federalism, which is. 34 00:04:14,590 --> 00:04:16,870 Not just a commitment because it's already happening. 35 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,840 That the way that Brazil is organising, planning and delivery of its climate action is for the different layers of government, 36 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:28,600 the federal government, the national government, working with, with, given us working with mayors to deliver. 37 00:04:28,610 --> 00:04:32,099 And we've seen it result in real money in real programs. 38 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:40,180 The Green Resilient Cities program that is relatively well funded, a big new fund for electrifying buses in cities already starting to be delivered. 39 00:04:40,420 --> 00:04:45,040 And I think actually Brazil's setting a pretty good model. And is there the host of the next cop? 40 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:50,859 This gives some really good reason for hope on, you know, in addition to the other countries that have done similar things. 41 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:57,190 And in the UK, you know, was really pleased to see the UK's new commitment, which is also become a signatory of companies. 42 00:04:57,230 --> 00:05:03,130 Also now looking at how how it's going to deliver with that kind of engagement of all levels of government in mind. 43 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:10,889 And in your view? How do you think Culp can strengthen the effectiveness of multi-level governance? 44 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:14,400 And so you referred to Brazil and the different layers of government. 45 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,549 Do you know, how would you think Cop can strengthen the effectiveness of these different layers of government working together? 46 00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:26,100 And have there been any broader kind of lessons learned from either coal or other global climate conferences? 47 00:05:27,630 --> 00:05:31,680 We've definitely got to have a reform, a pretty big reform, of course. 48 00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:43,320 So unless they move away from being all about negotiations between hundred and 92 countries and towards implementation of climate action, 49 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:47,890 they're never going to deliver what's needed to to tackle the climate crisis. 50 00:05:47,910 --> 00:05:49,860 I think there's some hope of that happening. 51 00:05:50,430 --> 00:06:00,329 Um, we saw for the first time in Dubai the first two days of that cop having a huge gathering at local action summits of the leaders of cities, 52 00:06:00,330 --> 00:06:05,940 of provinces, states, um, in big numbers, talking about the action that they're taking. 53 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:09,180 And actually, I think we need to go further than that with the next cop. 54 00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:18,270 Now, really where we want cops to be is that every party and I here, I don't mean the parties as they currently know the nation states, 55 00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:28,290 and I also mean the subnational governments and in in telling businesses and those who also have a stake in a responsibility coming to each cop, 56 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:36,270 reporting on what they've done to deliver against their science base Paris Agreement targets in the previous year, 57 00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:45,180 and then setting out what they're going to do in the next year, not negotiating about sort of notional things that they might do in 20 years time, uh, 58 00:06:45,180 --> 00:06:49,680 and which they like country will only do if country exit or something else, 59 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:55,139 but instead focusing on the plan and the delivery for what each of the parties are willing to do. 60 00:06:55,140 --> 00:07:02,340 And here I think this subnational sector, particularly C40 cities, can really help because that's how we're already set up. 61 00:07:03,090 --> 00:07:06,690 You know, to be in C40, you've got to have a Paris aligned plan. 62 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,250 You've got to be taking measurable action against the each year. 63 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,750 And if you don't deliver against that action, then you risk losing your membership of the club. 64 00:07:15,990 --> 00:07:20,880 Which means we're ready to say, you know, we'll come to the next cop and start that process of, 65 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:24,060 let's say, what we did in the last year and what we're going to do in the next year. 66 00:07:25,470 --> 00:07:30,690 And just picking up on your point there around the focusing more on the delivery of climate action. 67 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:38,280 You know, many cities, as you see, are now delivering on their climate action plans with, you know, concrete projects and programs on the ground. 68 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:44,339 What are some of the sort of challenges that cities are currently facing in, you know, 69 00:07:44,340 --> 00:07:48,480 not only reducing their emissions, but also strengthening and enhancing their resilience? 70 00:07:50,410 --> 00:07:57,580 Well, I'm the biggest one remains that the fossil fuel industry is actively trying to block climate action. 71 00:07:58,150 --> 00:08:08,020 And you see that affecting city policy delivery more and more, whether it's the funding of often actually highly affected. 72 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:15,730 One has to say disinformation, misinformation that turns public opinion against things that are obviously public goods, 73 00:08:16,090 --> 00:08:22,989 cleaning the air, uh, improving the supply of energy, improving energy efficiency of buildings, etc. 74 00:08:22,990 --> 00:08:25,090 So we've seen that we saw in London. 75 00:08:26,130 --> 00:08:32,660 Overcome in the end with the kind of huge, organised pushback against the expansion of the Clean Air Zone in London, US. 76 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:39,990 We see it in lots of American cities and even sometimes quite small towns, when they they plan to bring in new, 77 00:08:40,680 --> 00:08:49,140 very sensible regulations that new buildings should have to connect to a renewable energy supply, not a gas supply or a fossil fuel supply. 78 00:08:49,740 --> 00:08:56,330 Huge amounts of money from the fossil fuel energy industry coming in to try and prevent that measure being introduced. 79 00:08:56,340 --> 00:08:59,820 Lots of other examples around the globe so that that's the biggest barrier. 80 00:09:00,210 --> 00:09:08,880 If it was just about making data driven decisions based on science, with the technologies we already have available, we wouldn't have a problem. 81 00:09:09,150 --> 00:09:10,080 So we're got to have a fight. 82 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:21,329 I think, you know, the idea that couple of bits here is, is where national policy isn't sufficiently kind of aligned to be supportive. 83 00:09:21,330 --> 00:09:26,489 And that's what champ is about, is it's it's all we're really asking for. 84 00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:28,830 The city scale is, is give us the tools, 85 00:09:28,830 --> 00:09:35,610 national governments to be able to do the things that city leaders are willing signed up to try and deliver around climate. 86 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:42,810 And then, as you rightly raise, there is a there's a real challenge of particularly on adaptation, finance and finance in general. 87 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:49,410 You know, that the outcome of Cop 29 was a commitment to create a pot of $300 billion a year. 88 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:58,049 Her assessment is that just city climate action requires $800 billion purely of public money each year by 2030. 89 00:09:58,050 --> 00:10:04,320 So there's a huge gap, and such a small proportion of that is currently being spent on urban resilience, 90 00:10:04,530 --> 00:10:06,569 despite the fact that's where the problem is biggest, 91 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:13,260 because not least, so many urban centres are on coasts and on and on rivers and have the urban heat on. 92 00:10:13,590 --> 00:10:19,770 But it's also just where the densest populations off of that therefore where most people are affected by climate impacts. 93 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:28,160 And to overcome some of these challenges. How are cities working together collaboratively across, you know, 94 00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:35,400 key policy domains and sectors of buildings and transport to deliver on some of their climate commitments? 95 00:10:35,410 --> 00:10:42,760 Because your organisation, C40 cities, you know, it brings together cities to share knowledge based practice and climate action. 96 00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:47,980 You know, what are you starting to see in terms of cities overcoming some of these challenges? 97 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:57,730 So the thinking ahead, and this is why what's been happening at city level, I think can really help change the multilateral climate action in general, 98 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:05,799 meaning that the nation states are working much better together because for a good decade now, I mean, 99 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:12,820 C40 itself is 20 years old, but for the for the last ten years, we've had a leadership standards based membership system. 100 00:11:12,820 --> 00:11:17,530 So you can only be in the club if you take an action that everyone agrees is consistent with which science. 101 00:11:17,530 --> 00:11:23,019 For the last five years, that's been based on the Paris Agreement, um, standards. 102 00:11:23,020 --> 00:11:31,929 And we know about to ratchet up again so that it's based on the the slightly tougher standards that the United Nations secretary general's uh, 103 00:11:31,930 --> 00:11:35,620 integrity Matters report, um, has, has proposed that everybody achieve. 104 00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:42,909 So one, there's a there's a bedrock for collaboration that we everyone's committed to the same thing, science based climate action depending on, 105 00:11:42,910 --> 00:11:48,100 you know, different targets, depending on where you started in your emissions, uh, and resilience journey. 106 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,649 But now we've got groups of cities within the C40, uh, in what we call accelerators. 107 00:11:53,650 --> 00:12:03,860 But, you know, for example, a building, uh, accelerator where 30 or so cities have all committed at the same time that they bring in new regulations. 108 00:12:03,860 --> 00:12:10,690 So all new buildings have to be zero carbon progressively over the next few years, they can share best practice between each other. 109 00:12:11,050 --> 00:12:13,390 That put in a much stronger signal to markets. 110 00:12:13,610 --> 00:12:20,410 You know, often it's the same companies that are operating in all these different big cities, so they can all say the big cities are moving together. 111 00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:25,320 Um, at the same time, we've seen that even more kind of clearly in things like, uh, 112 00:12:25,330 --> 00:12:30,070 electric bus procurement, the Latin American cities all getting together and saying, 113 00:12:30,370 --> 00:12:35,320 despite the fact that European and North American manufacturers weren't interested in selling into their market, 114 00:12:35,710 --> 00:12:40,570 wanting to carry on selling dirty diesel, this is actually where we buy electric now. 115 00:12:40,570 --> 00:12:46,389 So either we're going to buy Chinese buses or you're going to have to start changing the business model. 116 00:12:46,390 --> 00:12:51,190 So there's a there's a kind of power to shift markets and uh, and change things, 117 00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:55,300 but also just that learning from each other, which I think is the, the most powerful thing of all. 118 00:12:57,150 --> 00:13:00,720 He learning and sharing best practices. Yeah. Critical at the moment I think. 119 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:05,700 And just picking up on one of the big challenges that you mentioned around climate finance. 120 00:13:06,060 --> 00:13:13,110 So to really effectively implement climate action, you know, that does require access to sustained climate finance. 121 00:13:13,530 --> 00:13:19,260 And, you know, there is that a significant funding gap for climate action at the city level, as you mentioned. 122 00:13:19,950 --> 00:13:29,010 What are the implications of the climate negotiations at Cop 29 regarding financing sustainable cities and climate action? 123 00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:37,689 So I think actually the the most important thing in city climate finance is that city 124 00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:43,720 governments themselves have really worked through how they can maximise the use of their own. 125 00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:49,020 Revenues and ability to raise capital funding themselves. 126 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:55,139 Yes, there's absolutely that need for more funding from national governments and being able to raise money on international markets. 127 00:13:55,140 --> 00:14:00,320 But where we see cities that, for example, have introduced climate budgets, 128 00:14:00,330 --> 00:14:06,150 say they're marrying the annual financial budget setting process with their annual carbon budget. 129 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:13,410 So you can't pass the financial budget unless you can show how it's going to deliver the emission reductions and resilience need. 130 00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:18,300 That's also now coming in in some places. So Mumbai is doing this New York. 131 00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:22,340 Um, Oslo was the first. London is a version of this. 132 00:14:22,350 --> 00:14:26,220 Rio in Brazil is about to do something similar. 133 00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:32,399 That starts to open up lots of opportunities for funding that hadn't been considered before, 134 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,960 because every department in the city has to think about their their contribution. 135 00:14:37,950 --> 00:14:44,309 Secondly, we go a whole groups of cities now that are divesting the pension funds, 136 00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:51,790 public pension funds from fossil fuel companies and then looking for new opportunities to invest that money. 137 00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:57,780 And so that is opening up new long term patient capital that can invest in green cities around the world. 138 00:14:59,670 --> 00:15:06,930 And just picking up action. You're pointing there. And climate finance and the the need to strengthen and enhance the resilience within cities. 139 00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:10,020 If we look at cities in the global South specifically, 140 00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:17,100 who obviously experience disproportionately the negative impacts of sea level rise, more frequent climate hazards. 141 00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:26,910 What impact do you think that do? Will the finance, um, agreements have on the ability of the global South cities to adapt to a changing climate? 142 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:38,100 I mean, it's absolutely essential that there is. No way that even in C40 it's quite big cities in the global South in say 40. 143 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:49,730 But even in those that, uh, the budgets are available now when it's needed to invest in the flood defences in the, 144 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:53,309 you know, often it's the it's nature based solutions that's most important. 145 00:15:53,310 --> 00:15:58,830 But even that takes capital to have a massive reforesting critical protecting of mangroves, 146 00:15:58,830 --> 00:16:04,320 swamps that provide all that kind of barrier against the excessive flooding or the shading that comes from trees, 147 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:12,480 you know, the cleaning out of rivers so that they can act as they should do when there there is a massive rainfall to to take the water away from, 148 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:20,430 from urban areas. And all of these things need investment now to protect cities next year, the year after five years, ten years time. 149 00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:26,489 And that means so, you know, that's got to be funded upfront through multilateral banks. 150 00:16:26,490 --> 00:16:29,850 That's what they're there for supporting national development banks. 151 00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:35,610 Um, you know yes. As was talked about a lot of there needs to be a lot of leveraging of private capital here. 152 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:40,980 But let's be honest, it's going to have to be. It's only going to happen if there's a bedrock of strong public investment. 153 00:16:41,550 --> 00:16:44,459 Um, and so yeah, I mean, ultimate is absolutely critical. 154 00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:50,400 What was being talked about, it's just that the numbers were tiny in comparison to the size of the challenge. 155 00:16:50,940 --> 00:17:00,870 Um, I think the the real risk is, as we've seen before, is it's not it's getting the money actually in the pot that matters. 156 00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:09,719 And I know that got a lot harder when what has previously been the the world's biggest donor to such pot to the United States of America, 157 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,860 looks like it will pull out of the Paris Agreement and is unlikely to be to be funded. 158 00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:22,900 And so I think. There's going to be a lot more focus on how cities can raise revenue themselves. 159 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:34,340 Yeah. And if we take a step back and look at some of the learnings more broadly from from Cop uh, 29 going forward, 160 00:17:34,550 --> 00:17:39,980 we've discussed some of the challenges that cities are facing in terms of climate finance, which is a significant barrier. 161 00:17:40,830 --> 00:17:49,310 If we look at the flip side, how can cities maximise the opportunities that Cop 29 has to offer and forward? 162 00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:57,990 Well, I think that by then, primarily by looking forwards, uh, to the opportunity fantasy. 163 00:17:58,230 --> 00:18:00,610 Um, because here we will have, uh, 164 00:18:00,630 --> 00:18:10,320 a presidency in Brazil that has shown some real climate leadership in one very important sphere in protecting the rainforest. 165 00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:14,669 Genuinely committed to what they call climate federalism. 166 00:18:14,670 --> 00:18:23,579 So working through all levels of government and is absolutely committed to helping the world achieve global collaboration on climate change. 167 00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:29,340 And and what cities need to do is grasp that opportunity and really be present and really show up in force. 168 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:39,149 Really come to that cop with the positive message of of what they have done to have Paris Agreement compliant plans to deliver against that, 169 00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:44,310 of course, that are all succeeding. But the progress has been made and critically, that the model of collaboration. 170 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,799 Because ultimately what's holding us back here is that the tenacity of the fossil fuel 171 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:55,620 industry to undermine climate action has been greater than the ability of climate, 172 00:18:55,620 --> 00:19:00,329 those in favour of climate action to work together, to collaborate, uh, to show a way forward. 173 00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:08,550 And I think what we have in the city space is, uh, an antidote to that, uh, you know, real strength in cooperation, collaboration across the world. 174 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:18,320 And then what role has C40 cities played in kind of strengthening the voice of cities, uh, within coal. 175 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:23,790 But then in the broader kind of cop discussions and, you know, is this through more of the diplomacy and advocacy work, 176 00:19:23,790 --> 00:19:30,420 or is it kind of the more knowledge sharing that you mentioned previously? Well, I think, you know, we're really proud of the role that we played, 177 00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:38,640 getting and going back over the years first and just putting on the table that as the secretary general himself says, 178 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:43,960 you can't stop climate breakdown without action in cities. 179 00:19:44,050 --> 00:19:48,450 That the route to overcoming the climate crisis is taking action in the places 180 00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:52,450 where most people now live and where the vast majority of emissions are generated. 181 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:57,090 So one, getting that on the table, I think to then. 182 00:19:58,180 --> 00:20:08,559 Now really showing. I feel what we have at C40 is an alternative model of multilateralism on climate that is working in contrast to, 183 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,800 despite all of the incredible efforts of everybody involved. 184 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:18,639 A model with the cops there is not working. And so I hope that we're able, therefore, 185 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:26,830 to show in a way that we are completely committed at C40 to making the Paris Agreement work and cop to be successful. 186 00:20:27,070 --> 00:20:32,650 We think the only way that can happen is if they're reformed and if some part of the success. 187 00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:41,280 Where multilateral naturalism remains strong and is really working I in organisations like C40 but across the city space in general. 188 00:20:41,790 --> 00:20:45,540 Uh, if that is brought more to the forefront of future, uh, 189 00:20:45,540 --> 00:20:50,540 climate talks climate and not the negotiations, we're not interested in being in the negotiations. 190 00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:58,350 We're very interested in being in the room when the focus is on the action that's being taken and the collaboration that's needed to deliver. 191 00:20:58,610 --> 00:21:07,439 You know, what is a just societal transformation to improve people's lives, protect against the, you know, the climate impacts that are coming, 192 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:13,380 whatever we do now and get our pollution down to levels that are consistent with with healthy populations. 193 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:21,640 So would you say that it's more around that, as you said, the reforms of the framework or the model of the low carbon transition generally? 194 00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:28,120 Is that right? I think that's now. You know, I think I think that's the next thing that the city, 195 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:34,600 that C40 that the cities place really has to offer and is breaking into the into the international climate space. 196 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:41,950 But obviously it's you know, we're only able to offer that because we can show the basics are already there, 197 00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:45,670 that our member cities have got climate plans consistent with Paris. 198 00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:54,010 They're delivering them. It's transparent. You can see the progress that's been made, and that action happens for those that don't succeed, 199 00:21:54,010 --> 00:21:59,320 like they lose their membership of the club, they lose the benefits of all of that kind of sharing and collaboration. 200 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:07,000 So I think in having that in place, we now want to we would like to offer that that becomes a more central part of the way that cop itself works. 201 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,760 And not and not not just with C40, but all the cities, all organisations, the subnational networks. 202 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:19,210 We're working constantly with Ukg, with Italy, with the UN, to to coalition with WRI and many, many others. 203 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:26,349 Um, already we'd like to bring all of that collaboration right into the centre of cops, not on the periphery, right into the centres. 204 00:22:26,350 --> 00:22:31,240 And every year, not just in the years when the president is really supportive of that. 205 00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:38,600 That sounds great. And just as we wrap up, uh, looking ahead at the next five, ten years, uh, 206 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,329 what do you think the role of cities in multilateral climate negotiations will, will look like in the future? 207 00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:51,690 So to a Cop 30 and beyond. I think as. 208 00:22:53,780 --> 00:22:59,090 Climate. Multilateralism now moves from negotiation to implementation. 209 00:23:00,020 --> 00:23:05,650 So. The role of cities will come right into the centre right to the front, 210 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:12,790 because that's where mayors already are at, is on implementing their climate action. 211 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,510 What they have to offer, what matters most in the next 5 or 6 years. 212 00:23:16,990 --> 00:23:23,650 So get into that critical, you know, somewhere close to halving global emissions by by 2030. 213 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:30,400 Um, because the stuff that mayors are able to really influence is really about reducing the demand for fossil fuels. 214 00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:33,280 Let's. What I would hope is that. 215 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:40,090 And if we can really use that dynamism, that leadership, that collaboration to really push forward global action in the next five years, 216 00:23:40,450 --> 00:23:46,540 then nation states will be in a better position to then do the heavy lifting that they have to do in the following years, 217 00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:52,000 which is really about transforming energy systems and then the holiday into the holiday to deal with stuff, 218 00:23:52,450 --> 00:23:55,540 um, that we've yet we've yet to kind of really get focussed on. 219 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,629 Great. Mark, thank you so much for your time. 220 00:23:59,630 --> 00:24:07,370 Uh, and your insights on, uh, cop 29 and the broader opportunities and challenges that cities are facing in addressing the climate crisis. 221 00:24:07,370 --> 00:24:11,180 So thank you very much. Thank you. Really enjoyed it. 222 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,960 Thank you for listening to the University of Oxford Cop 29 podcast series on sustainable cities. 223 00:24:21,410 --> 00:24:22,700 We hope you enjoyed the series. 224 00:24:23,270 --> 00:24:30,650 If you'd like more information on the topics covered on the podcast basis, please visit the Global Centre on Health Care and Urbanisation website.