1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,440 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Coca-Cola. Thanks very much for joining me for this conversation. Thanks for having me. 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:19,280 So our topic today is consent to sexual activity in non-ideal or unjust circumstances, which are the circumstances pretty much of the world. 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:27,680 That's right. So in other words, you know, how is it possible that people can consent to sex in a world that's so riven with inequality, 4 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,880 with power imbalance, and with limited choice situations? 5 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:39,920 But before we get to that, I wanted to ask you at the outset, how do you think about consent to sex in the most general terms? 6 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,440 Yeah. Um, thanks for asking that because I've thought about this a lot. 7 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:52,000 Um, I like thinking of the notion of sensuality as actually prior to the notion of consent. 8 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,280 So for me, consensual sex, as I think about it, 9 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:06,280 is sex where Everybody who's participating is expressing or communicating that it is their will to participate. 10 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:16,440 They it is their will to participate. Everybody else involved also understands that they are expressing this respects, that this is their will. 11 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,960 And if anybody were to express that they wanted to stop. 12 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:24,160 Everybody else would respect that and stop. 13 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:33,800 So for me, consensually is about the quality of the communication and the freedom of the actual extended act. 14 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,560 And so consent to sex is just agreeing to do that. 15 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,840 Um, I don't actually think that there is always such a thing as, like a moment of consenting to sex. 16 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:53,000 Sex. Consensual sex can start in various different ways, but sometimes we actually say to one another, okay, let's do this. 17 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,520 And that would be consent. As long as what you're agreeing to is a consensual activity. 18 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:07,030 So can I ask, does this mean for you this idea of consent, duality? Um, that consent requires enthusiasm, kind of willingness in in that sense? 19 00:02:07,830 --> 00:02:12,790 Yeah. Actually not. I mean, there's a lot of emphasis in, in a lot of circles right now, 20 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:17,710 including circles that I feel very sympathetic with on the idea of enthusiastic consent and 21 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:21,950 sometimes even the idea that consent doesn't count as consent unless it's enthusiastic. 22 00:02:22,910 --> 00:02:27,990 And I actually think that leaves a lot of important kinds of genuinely consensual sex out. 23 00:02:28,390 --> 00:02:38,070 So, for example, um, asexual people have pointed out that they often make fully free, wilful decisions to have sex, 24 00:02:38,390 --> 00:02:44,710 not because they're super enthusiastic about it, but for social purposes or as a favour to a partner or whatever it may be. 25 00:02:45,430 --> 00:02:52,470 Um, sex workers have done a very good job of pointing out that nobody goes through their whole workday with total enthusiasm. 26 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:56,990 And so if you were to teach every class. Woo hoo! Right. 27 00:02:57,870 --> 00:03:01,070 So if you were to require enthusiasm as a condition for consent, 28 00:03:01,470 --> 00:03:04,910 then you would be basically saying that a lot of the time they're having non-consensual sex, 29 00:03:05,470 --> 00:03:09,710 which would be erasing the difference for them between rape and consensual sex. 30 00:03:09,990 --> 00:03:14,510 Right. They don't want to say every time they're doing their job wilfully, they're being raped. 31 00:03:15,190 --> 00:03:19,390 That actually makes invisible the very real problem of rape, of sex workers. 32 00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:24,910 So I think that in a sex work context, enthusiastic consent doesn't make sense as a criterion. 33 00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:28,510 And one last one I want to mention, because it's one I've been thinking about a lot. 34 00:03:29,310 --> 00:03:37,510 Um, I think that being able to act under conditions of sexual ambivalence is actually really important to our agency. 35 00:03:38,270 --> 00:03:44,230 So sometimes, whether it's sex or going on a hike or getting into a boxing ring, 36 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:50,190 whatever it may be, um, we're really not sure that we want to do something. 37 00:03:50,870 --> 00:03:51,830 It pushes our boundaries. 38 00:03:52,390 --> 00:04:01,790 We're not sure what the experience is going to be, and we want to be able to enable people to make those ambivalent choices and take risks. 39 00:04:02,470 --> 00:04:07,390 And that takes various kinds of work to make sure that they can back out if they need to and they feel safe and so on. 40 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:13,350 But I think that if you say to people, oh, unless you're just completely into it, then don't do it. 41 00:04:13,870 --> 00:04:16,070 That really limits our agency, right? 42 00:04:16,430 --> 00:04:23,550 It really limits our ability to push our boundaries, which is inherently empowering, and to discover things that we may love. 43 00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:29,390 So the idea is that there's a in the sexual context, maybe in particular, there's a certain value in exploration. 44 00:04:30,190 --> 00:04:37,310 Maybe, you know, I think there's an important one. I mean, yeah, there's slogans out there now that I've seen that say maybe means no. 45 00:04:37,710 --> 00:04:42,070 And I understand that the intent is good, but no, maybe it doesn't mean no, right? 46 00:04:42,590 --> 00:04:46,590 Maybe means maybe. And, you know, think how many how how many fewer. 47 00:04:47,430 --> 00:04:57,540 Is that a sentence? Um, think how few people might have ended up coming out as queer if they were told, 48 00:04:57,820 --> 00:05:00,940 well, if you're not sure, then it's not consensual and don't trust. Right? 49 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:09,700 Right. That's very interesting. So if we think about, um, autonomy and freedom, I think most of us assume, and surely correctly, 50 00:05:10,460 --> 00:05:17,020 that freedom is a critical condition of giving valid consent to sexual activity. 51 00:05:18,020 --> 00:05:22,860 But you argue that freedom or autonomy, autonomy is always a continuum. 52 00:05:23,740 --> 00:05:32,900 Yes. Um, and that, in fact, partial autonomy, not full autonomy, uh, is enough in order to be able to consent to sexual activity. 53 00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:36,220 So I wondered if you could just say a bit more about that. Yeah. 54 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:42,700 Um, I think I'm a little bit hesitant to say it's enough, because it depends on the rest of the context, 55 00:05:43,380 --> 00:05:46,700 and that's really the point that I want to stress, right? 56 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:56,940 So yes, I want to argue that partial autonomy is a minimal condition for ethical consensual sex, but that we don't need full autonomy. 57 00:05:58,260 --> 00:06:00,980 Um, I want to say three things, I guess. 58 00:06:01,220 --> 00:06:08,340 I mean, first of all, I just want to point out that the, um, bar of full autonomy is totally unrealistic, right? 59 00:06:09,020 --> 00:06:14,660 When we think about power imbalances and sex, we tend to think about things like professors having sex with their students, 60 00:06:15,060 --> 00:06:20,900 or employees having sex with their bosses, um, or gender inequalities or racial inequalities. 61 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:30,660 But if you think about all of the incredibly, um, tight number of and huge number of power imbalances that can exist, 62 00:06:31,500 --> 00:06:36,660 there can be a power imbalance because, um, you and your partner have different numbers of friends or, 63 00:06:37,060 --> 00:06:41,740 you know, you're new to the community and they aren't or they're more extroverted than you are or they're, 64 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:45,580 you know, somewhat wealthier than you are and so have more economic options, right. 65 00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:50,420 And can pay for more stuff. There's just an indefinite number of ways in which there are power imbalances. 66 00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:54,900 And the idea that we would escape all of those and be these fully free beings. 67 00:06:55,460 --> 00:06:59,340 In no way held down by power imbalances is just not unrealistic. 68 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:05,020 It's not realistic. Not to mention the fact that, you know, realistically, 69 00:07:06,260 --> 00:07:14,700 it's going to keep being the case that we have sex when we're a little drunk or a little high or really super tired or not at our full capacity. 70 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:19,140 So I think the idea of full autonomy is just an unrealistic bar. 71 00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:29,980 I think that what we need, at a minimum, is the kind of autonomy that would let us participate in consensual sex in the way that I defined it. 72 00:07:30,140 --> 00:07:37,620 So you have to be capable of expressing your, well, understanding somebody else's expression of, well, 73 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:45,260 you have to be able to have enough self-reflection and impulse control to decide not to do things. 74 00:07:46,620 --> 00:07:53,660 Um, and you have to be able to respect the other person's communication of their agency and their desire to stop. 75 00:07:54,060 --> 00:08:01,260 Right? So all of that is just way less than being some sort of free autonomous chooser set completely 76 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:06,740 free from all power imbalances and fully informed and completely clear on what they want. 77 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:14,020 Right. But the last thing I want to say is whether that's enough really depends on the circumstances, right. 78 00:08:14,460 --> 00:08:15,860 And we can talk more about that. 79 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:23,060 But for me, it's really important that whether somebody is in a position to have consensual sex depends not just on their internal capacities, 80 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:28,020 but on what kind of negotiation is going on with their partner, where they are, 81 00:08:28,460 --> 00:08:32,340 what cultural context they're in, what legal context they're in, and so forth. 82 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:40,660 So I suppose the the challenge that you were confronted, you know, the antagonist to this way of thinking would be somebody who says, 83 00:08:40,980 --> 00:08:48,300 well, no, nothing short of full autonomy, absolute autonomy, whatever that means, is required for robust consent. 84 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:54,170 Valid consent. There we go. Since we never. Since we never are in conditions of full autonomy. 85 00:08:55,330 --> 00:09:00,010 Um, it's actually the case that there's never this, this, this robust consent going on. 86 00:09:00,650 --> 00:09:05,570 Um, and I take it from your writing that, that you reject that position as, as sort of untenable. 87 00:09:06,330 --> 00:09:14,690 I wonder if you could. Yeah. I mean, the case where this has come up most clearly is in the context of some of the second wave feminists 88 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:21,050 who claimed that there was no such thing as women consenting to heterosexual sex under patriarchy. 89 00:09:21,850 --> 00:09:26,530 Right. Because men and women are inherently in an unequal and oppressive power relation. 90 00:09:27,090 --> 00:09:31,410 And so there's no way. Um, and then, as you point out, you could just extend that. 91 00:09:31,610 --> 00:09:36,290 And once you acknowledge that we're all in power relations, then it seems like there's no such thing as consensual, right? 92 00:09:36,530 --> 00:09:39,970 And you think this is just not a helpful. I think it's completely unhelpful. 93 00:09:40,690 --> 00:09:47,730 I think it's first of all, it doesn't allow us to distinguish between the actual harm of rape and not right. 94 00:09:48,010 --> 00:09:53,250 We need some way of drawing a line and being able to say, yes, this is ethically acceptable sex and this isn't. 95 00:09:53,930 --> 00:10:01,890 I guess some people might want to say no sex is just not ethically acceptable in this world, but that seems like a very self-defeating position. 96 00:10:02,690 --> 00:10:11,770 We'll die off fast if we think that, right? Um, but I also just don't think it does justice to the fact that sexual pleasure and sexual agency, 97 00:10:13,010 --> 00:10:17,770 um, are a huge part of many, or maybe even most people's lives. 98 00:10:18,890 --> 00:10:24,210 Right? We enjoy sex. We feel empowered when we have sex that we want. 99 00:10:24,570 --> 00:10:30,650 And that is going well. Um, bodily pleasure is just this huge dimension of our well-being. 100 00:10:31,450 --> 00:10:39,690 And to say all of it is off the table because none of it can be consensual just feels to me like it's shutting down an enormously, 101 00:10:41,450 --> 00:10:46,530 um, essential part of human well-being. And you could also, if, you know, if we're going to go that route, 102 00:10:47,050 --> 00:10:51,210 then it's not just sex it's going to be rolled out because it can never be consensual, right? 103 00:10:51,770 --> 00:10:54,890 Like you can't get medical treatment either because you can't consent to that. 104 00:10:55,010 --> 00:11:00,690 Because there's always power relations. You can't do anything. So I mean, I think that really, you know, slippery slope arguments are dangerous. 105 00:11:01,050 --> 00:11:05,530 But I do think that that would just lead us towards you can't do anything because nothing is autonomous. 106 00:11:06,170 --> 00:11:13,170 Sure. I wonder if you think I mean, do you think that there's a kernel of truth in that second wave feminist view? 107 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:19,330 Only insofar as the thesis is full consent in this context, or considering these contexts, 108 00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:26,850 heterosexual sex against a backdrop of patriarchy is always, at the very least, kind of attenuated or or tainted. 109 00:11:27,330 --> 00:11:32,010 Even if we wouldn't want to go so far as to say it's therefore off the table, because that does sound quite extreme. 110 00:11:32,770 --> 00:11:36,490 I think that's exactly right. And I also think that, um, 111 00:11:37,090 --> 00:11:47,080 an important lesson from that strand of second wave feminism is that we can't ever take heterosexual sex under patriarchy for granted. 112 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:57,720 Just because somebody says yes does not mean that we have an unproblematic, consensual situation on our hands, right? 113 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:04,200 Anyone who says yes under those conditions, and particularly any woman who says yes under the conditions of patriarchy and heteronormativity, 114 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:17,200 is saying yes across a power imbalance, but also having been embedded in a culture that makes saying no to men risky. 115 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:25,000 Um, embedded in a culture in which men are trained, that it's romantic and praiseworthy, 116 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,600 not to take no for an answer, but to keep pursuing and pushing for a yes. 117 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:35,320 And so it can be hard to extract yourself from that kind of dynamic. 118 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:42,120 So there are all kinds of reasons why we need to always be sort of critically aware of the ways in which 119 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,360 the culture and our norms of communication chip away at the consensual of that kind of heterosexual sex. 120 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,360 But that's a good reason to think about how we can scaffold it and make it better. 121 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,240 It's not a reason to say, oh, well, then just don't have that right. 122 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:09,520 So a primary example of sex with impaired autonomy that you write about in one of your papers involves people who have moderate dementia. 123 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:16,360 And you describe this as a murky case or a complex case, um, in this context. 124 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,840 And you actually give the example of, of the gist of a real life case of somebody who has sex with their spouse, 125 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,480 who is a person with moderate dementia. 126 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:32,360 Um, could you maybe take us through how you think about these sorts of people and these kinds of capacity issues? 127 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,600 Yeah. Um, yeah. I'm glad to have a chance to talk about that, 128 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:42,760 because I think it's a really interesting case that is super difficult and that, um, hasn't gotten enough attention. 129 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:52,280 Um, we do know that, um, older people, including people with dementia, um, generally want sex. 130 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,400 Their sex drive tends to either stay the same or go up. It rarely goes down. 131 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:06,920 And we also know that people with dementia who do have sex, um, tend to be less depressed and do better in a whole roster of ways. 132 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:14,240 So I think we have to be very careful about just sort of saying, oh, well, that's off limits because it does seem to be important to their well-being. 133 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:23,880 Of course, that's not the same as that sex being consensual. But part of the problem here is that, um, there's no clear cut off. 134 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,320 There's no point at which somebody with dementia simply just goes over some precipice 135 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,480 where they no longer have those minimal autonomy conditions that we were talking about, 136 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:41,760 where they can no longer express their well, make sure that their well is being understood, interpret the other person's well. 137 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,990 Right. It's a gradual process, but it's also a process that's really uneven and fluctuating. 138 00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:53,790 So people's capacities tend to get better and worse depending on whether they're tired, whether they're stressed, 139 00:14:54,470 --> 00:15:00,110 who they're with, um, but also where they are, how comfortable they are in the situation. 140 00:15:00,950 --> 00:15:04,910 Right. So the whole process is inherently murky. 141 00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:20,070 Um, but I think it's important that we not just presume that the answer to murkiness is to rule out sex for people like that. 142 00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:24,510 Um, because for for two reasons. 143 00:15:24,910 --> 00:15:29,030 One is it seems like it would be a huge hit against their well-being. But also, I mean, 144 00:15:29,150 --> 00:15:35,270 there's something very bizarre about thinking that anyone could decide for somebody else 145 00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:42,590 that they no longer have the bodily self-determination to be sexual beings anymore. 146 00:15:42,950 --> 00:15:49,590 right? Like, unless somebody is clearly, totally and completely incompetent and maybe even a danger to themselves or other people, 147 00:15:50,070 --> 00:15:57,790 we don't get to take away other people's bodily self-determination. So what I think we need to do instead is sort of work with the McKays and think, 148 00:15:58,270 --> 00:16:04,190 how can we scaffold the situation of people with dementia to make a gentle, 149 00:16:04,750 --> 00:16:14,510 consensual sex possible and to do a better job of telling when and where and with whom they are and aren't able to have this kind of. 150 00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:19,030 And you say a number of things about the general attitudes of nursing homes. 151 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:27,790 Yeah, to this sort of thing. And the antagonism, I suppose, to this, the very idea that, um, that patients would, would, would be sexual agents. 152 00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:34,550 Yeah. For reasons of worry and risk and liability and that sort of thing which you think plus stigma and stigma. 153 00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:39,270 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, I think the way that we've set up almost all nursing homes now, 154 00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:44,110 they're basically just like maximally designed to undermine the possibility of consensual sex. 155 00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:53,150 So the staff tend to be against the idea of their, um, the people they're caring for having sex, 156 00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:57,310 and in fact tend to think the idea is just icky and off limits. 157 00:16:58,190 --> 00:17:05,590 Um, we build nursing homes physically in such a way that people who live there tend to not have a lot of privacy, 158 00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:10,590 not have private spaces, not have comfortable, sexy spaces that they can go to. 159 00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:17,710 There tends to not be any kind of established, institutionalised, um, 160 00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:24,470 sexual counselling, sexual advice, um, you know, recourse for potential sexual assault. 161 00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:30,950 None of that is there. So we've basically set up these institutions that, for cultural reasons and physical reasons, 162 00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:35,750 are just antagonistic towards the possibility of consensual sex. 163 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:40,620 And if sex does happen there, it's probably going to be some sort of furtive, 164 00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:47,860 secretive thing in an uncomfortable space where you might get walked in on and where something goes wrong. 165 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:50,460 You don't want to tell anybody because you weren't supposed to be having it anyway. 166 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,500 And if you're worried about somebody full agency, that's that's worse. 167 00:17:55,060 --> 00:18:00,660 It's the exact opposite. One thing I think that would be really just wonderful if we could do it. 168 00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:09,980 As far as I know, nobody's doing this is we should make it just standard practice that partners of people with dementia, 169 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:21,300 or partners of people in long term care facilities, should receive mandatory training on how to think about negotiating sex with their loved ones. 170 00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:26,220 Right. Specific training on what are the signs you should look out for? 171 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:36,380 To see if the person is in a more competent state of mind today or not, or is manifesting discomfort or hesitation or not, right? 172 00:18:36,620 --> 00:18:42,420 I mean, having sex with somebody with dementia is a different kind of thing and we get no training on it. 173 00:18:42,540 --> 00:18:44,700 And so partners are just supposed to kind of figure it out, 174 00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:51,780 which I think lays open room for all kinds of mishaps and just putting it out in the open and saying, 175 00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:56,380 look, this is the thing you need to learn to do, I think could be enormously empowering and helpful. 176 00:18:57,020 --> 00:19:04,940 So could I ask a little bit further about that, about this idea of of scaffolding, as you say, as you put it, somebody's sexual agency. 177 00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:08,780 So when a person is maybe in this kind of grey area. Yeah. 178 00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:12,700 Um, you think, well, it's possible that they could meet the threshold of consent, 179 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,660 but they may need to be helped in all sorts of ways to meet that threshold. 180 00:19:17,140 --> 00:19:19,700 So you've just given a few examples of how how they may be helped, 181 00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:25,220 which I suppose are to do with their partner's sensitivity to understanding what they're communicating. 182 00:19:26,380 --> 00:19:31,780 You know, what their desires are. That's part of it. What would be the other ways in which we could scaffold someone's agency? 183 00:19:32,140 --> 00:19:39,140 Somebody say, with moderate dementia? Yeah, this notion of of scaffolding of agency is enormously important for me. 184 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:47,100 It's really central to how I think about all these issues, and I think of scaffolding as consisting of multiple different layers. 185 00:19:47,580 --> 00:19:52,660 And these aren't fully separable. They of course interlock with one another and overlap with one another. 186 00:19:53,260 --> 00:20:01,260 But, you know, one is the one that you just mentioned, which is the kind of scaffolding that we get through communication where we do a, 187 00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:06,460 um, a good job of explicitly negotiating with our partner. 188 00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:12,500 What are your limits? What do you want to do? How are you going to show me when you want to stop? 189 00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:17,140 Right. Just that whole sort of communicative layer. 190 00:20:18,260 --> 00:20:21,540 Um, there's also, I think, a material physical layer. 191 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:27,420 So, for example, how easy literally physically is it for this person to leave if they need to. 192 00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:31,780 And that might be in the case of somebody with dementia. That might be a mobility issue. 193 00:20:32,660 --> 00:20:35,700 Right. Can this person actually just get up from the bed and leave? 194 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:39,530 It might be about whether they have anywhere to go. 195 00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:47,650 Right. Think about the woman who gets trapped having sex at a frat house with no way to get home and nowhere else to stay. 196 00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:51,130 Right. Like, physically, it's hard to leave that situation. 197 00:20:52,490 --> 00:20:53,850 Um, so it can be physical. 198 00:20:54,330 --> 00:21:03,730 I also think that there's cultural scaffolding, which are, um, the various norms that do a good job or a bad job of supporting people's sexual agency. 199 00:21:04,570 --> 00:21:12,570 So, for example, um, body shaming norms that tell some people that they're not worthy of sexual attention, I think, 200 00:21:12,850 --> 00:21:21,330 undermine sexual agency because people who have internalised that message often don't feel entitled to stand up for themselves in a sexual situation. 201 00:21:22,010 --> 00:21:29,530 Right. So that's just one out of many, many examples of a cultural norm that can boost or undermine agency. 202 00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:39,530 I also think there's institutional scaffolding. Right. So what are the laws and policies around accountability for sexual assault. 203 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:45,610 What are the educational? Um, well, you know, how does school education work? 204 00:21:45,890 --> 00:21:53,770 How does sex education work? Um, these are all things at the institutional level that can support agency or undermine agency. 205 00:21:54,650 --> 00:21:59,690 My last one, um, at least for now, is when I think of as community scaffolding. 206 00:22:00,930 --> 00:22:09,650 Um, so, you know, somebody who has a strong community that they can talk to, go to if something goes wrong, 207 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:17,130 but also not just if something goes wrong, just, um, you know, people to talk to about sex, what's normal, what isn't, what should you put up with? 208 00:22:17,330 --> 00:22:21,210 What should you not put up with friends who you can rely on if you're feeling unsure? 209 00:22:21,970 --> 00:22:30,250 That whole sort of being embedded in a supportive community, rather than a shaming community or no community at all. 210 00:22:31,010 --> 00:22:35,370 Right. I think is another important layer here. So if you think of somebody with moderate dementia, 211 00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:40,410 there's just all the difference in the world between somebody who has a partner who's good at negotiation, 212 00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:47,050 living in a place that makes sex possible and safe for them, right. 213 00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:55,850 In a community where older sexuality is not stigmatised in a country or a jurisdiction 214 00:22:56,930 --> 00:23:00,170 where the laws around sexual assault are pretty good and victim friendly, 215 00:23:00,770 --> 00:23:04,010 that person versus somebody who is just, you know, 216 00:23:05,930 --> 00:23:15,170 dumped in a facility with no privacy and no history of knowing how to negotiate sex and then has something happen and doesn't know what's going on. 217 00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:17,170 Right? I mean, these are just completely different situations, 218 00:23:17,850 --> 00:23:22,930 even if those two people have the same kind of cognitive level, cognitive capacity in some sense. 219 00:23:23,690 --> 00:23:32,250 I mean, obviously, the greatest worry in this context, where we're we're thinking about people with impaired functioning of some kind is 220 00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:37,210 the worry about exploitation of vulnerable people and the possibility of abuse, 221 00:23:37,890 --> 00:23:41,770 which I assume kind of looms very large in the consciousness of people who work in, 222 00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:47,090 in nursing homes and partly maybe explains, um, the general attitudes. 223 00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:54,650 So, I mean, what might you say to somebody who thinks that there's just too much risk here when one person is, 224 00:23:54,890 --> 00:24:03,290 is so vulnerable, um, to abuse, uh, you know, meaning that that really we should just be thinking about consent as. 225 00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:10,770 And sexual activity is off the table, right? Yeah. I mean, I think, I guess I would want to really stress two points. 226 00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:22,210 One is, I think that our entire approach to thinking about sex and sexual agency, interestingly, from sort of both the left and the right, 227 00:24:22,410 --> 00:24:33,320 if I can cartoonishly oversimplify the sides here, right, tends to be organised around the like, making sure that bad sex doesn't happen, right? 228 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,320 So from the right, you have this message of just, you know, sex is bad. 229 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:44,960 Just say no, right? And from the left, you have this message of, like, men do terrible things to women and women out to be able to say no, 230 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,960 but they're sort of united in their focus on how do we ensure that no is possible? 231 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,640 Right. And I agree. Yeah. I mean, fundamentally negative. 232 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,720 And I agree that that is super important. And I'm not trying to undermine the importance of it. 233 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:06,400 But neither of those approaches really directs our attention to, um, 234 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:15,120 the fact that there are huge positives and benefits to having access to sex and sexual pleasure and sexual agency. 235 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:24,680 Right. Um, and we it's it's not a trivial thing by any means to take away somebody's 236 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:31,400 bodily self-determination and access to pleasure and access to what might be, 237 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:40,920 especially in the case of dementia, like absolutely crucial social bonds to another person that are like sort of holding you in yourself and say, 238 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,640 oh, you don't get that anymore because it's too dangerous. Right. 239 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:50,440 So, I mean, I just I think that like, it's a risk benefit calculation, but people always focus on the risks, 240 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,520 and the risks are real, but we don't have conversations about the benefits. 241 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,320 The other thing I would stress, which I mentioned slightly before, but I really want to hammer the point home, 242 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,960 is I just don't think anybody gets to make that decision for somebody else. 243 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,200 Like the idea of okay, no, sorry. Too dangerous. Sex is off the table for you. 244 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,800 For me, it's that's almost like a category error. Like other people don't get to refuse sex on somebody else's behalf. 245 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:21,880 Unless, again, unless they are truly, like, completely unable to meet that minimum bar for autonomy. 246 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,880 Right. So I don't want to say can never like. 247 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:31,200 Or if it's extremely dangerous to you know, even then people get to like do things that'll kill them if they want to. 248 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,320 So by imposing consequences on anybody. Or consequences of a certain type on anybody who would have sex with them, 249 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,720 you're saying that's effectively what we would be doing is making that decision for you? 250 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,960 I think it's taking. Yeah. Now, I mean, I want to be clear. I think there are exceptions. 251 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:56,000 I think that there are cases where the power imbalance is so great that it's just literally impossible for the less powerful person to consent. 252 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,560 Like when we're dealing with an adult and a small child, for example, or when we're dealing with, 253 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,280 um, a disabled person and their caretaker on whom they're completely dependent. 254 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:13,760 I think there are some cases where it's like, no, you know, self-determination is nice, but that's not an option in this situation. 255 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:19,120 And then we do need, like things in place to keep sex from happening laws and other stuff. 256 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,800 But when you're dealing with somebody who has at least the potential for competence and bodily self-determination, 257 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,270 I just don't think it's ever an ethical option for somebody else to say on their behalf. 258 00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:38,070 We're going to make it impossible for you to exercise that self-determination. So far, 259 00:27:38,270 --> 00:27:45,470 we've been speaking about all of these things exclusively in terms of consent and what does or doesn't get a person to the threshold of consent. 260 00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:51,350 But I wonder to what extent some of these issues are about the ethics of sex, 261 00:27:51,870 --> 00:27:56,110 kind of beyond consent, a little bit more generally, kind of past that baseline threshold. 262 00:27:57,230 --> 00:28:06,510 Right? Yeah. So consensual sex. All ethical sex is consensual, but not all consensual sex is ethical, right? 263 00:28:06,790 --> 00:28:14,630 So I mean, there's, um, sex that is, um, consensual but unethical for any number of reasons. 264 00:28:15,030 --> 00:28:22,350 For example, you might be having consensual sex that, um, unacceptably betrays somebody else, right? 265 00:28:23,150 --> 00:28:32,190 Um, or there are very contentious cases. Like, what if the Consensual sexual role playing scene that you're engaged in, which is fully consensual. 266 00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:38,990 Um, is playing off of deeply racist or hateful tropes. 267 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:43,870 I don't actually want to come down on that one, because there's an interesting debate around that. 268 00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:48,390 But it should should at least make us ethically uncomfortable, right? 269 00:28:48,990 --> 00:28:52,630 Right. At a minimum. Um, yeah. And there's no issue of consent there. 270 00:28:52,790 --> 00:28:58,990 So it's not an issue of consent, right? Um, you know, having, um, consensual sex. 271 00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:03,390 Um, this might be an issue of consent, although an odd one. 272 00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:08,350 Right. Having consensual sex in some very public place in front of other people who don't want to see it. 273 00:29:10,030 --> 00:29:15,510 Like walking into a church and just having sex on the altar or something, um, could be unethical. 274 00:29:16,350 --> 00:29:22,590 I think there are really difficult cases. Like, for example, um, what about consensual sex? 275 00:29:23,150 --> 00:29:28,110 That is intentionally very degrading to one of the people involved. 276 00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:30,830 I think there's a lot of subtleties there. 277 00:29:30,990 --> 00:29:36,190 I think sort of degradation kinks are legitimate kinks, and there's ways of playing with them and making them ethical. 278 00:29:36,790 --> 00:29:46,470 But it's very easy to consent to something that really is against your self-interest, in the sense that it dehumanises you or degrades you. 279 00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:50,630 And the last and probably most common one is like you can legitimately consent 280 00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:56,190 to sex for all kinds of bad reasons when you shouldn't be consenting to sex, 281 00:29:56,510 --> 00:30:05,110 right? So you might consent to sex with somebody just because, like you think it will make you more popular even though you hate it. 282 00:30:06,550 --> 00:30:11,310 Or you might be consenting to sex because you think that, um, you know, 283 00:30:11,470 --> 00:30:20,310 there's this wonderful article out there about how there's a lot of pressure on women who have cancer to have this sort of eat, 284 00:30:20,590 --> 00:30:25,230 pray, love attitude toward sex and enjoy sex to prove that they are life affirming and positive. 285 00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:29,460 So this is a pressure from any particular person. It's kind of it's from the culture. Yeah. 286 00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:36,940 But also sometimes from their doctors buying into these weird cultural tropes like good cancer patients are life affirming and have sex. 287 00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:40,540 That's part of it. Yeah. And that really made a big impression on me. 288 00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:44,980 So, like you might have, you might legitimately consent to sex because you think that, like, 289 00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:51,460 that's the kind of cancer patient you're supposed to be, even though you're finding it painful and gross and uncomfortable. 290 00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:53,420 Yeah. Right. So there's yeah. 291 00:30:53,620 --> 00:30:59,380 So there's all kinds of reasons why consensual sex might be terrible, either ethically terrible or just really unpleasant. 292 00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:08,460 So we already spoke a bit about power differentials, which is something you're interested in and is one of the, 293 00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:13,180 I suppose, context in which autonomy can be impaired. Um, 294 00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:22,580 and you made the point that almost no sexual interaction and maybe almost no relationship is likely to be entirely equally balanced in terms of power. 295 00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:27,580 And this is something that we have to sort of work around, I suppose, when thinking about consent. 296 00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:35,900 But there are other kinds of cases where people may be kind of intentionally playing on a power dimension in a sexual interaction, 297 00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:44,740 or intentionally exploiting a power dimension. I wonder if you think that's a different sort of a scenario that warrants its own analysis. 298 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:53,580 Yeah, I'm really interested in cases like this, because there's a sort of a version of what consent is supposed to look like, 299 00:31:54,660 --> 00:31:59,940 including in a lot of feminist literature that I'm generally very sympathetic with, which says, look, 300 00:32:00,220 --> 00:32:05,900 if somebody is being submissive or is having control taken away from them, then it's just bad. 301 00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:12,100 It's not consensual and or it's sort of repeating oppressive power dynamics. 302 00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:17,620 And so we should just not do that. Um, again, I think this is unrealistic. 303 00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:27,100 Um, for one thing, it turns out there's a really interesting study that shows that well over half of men and women, 304 00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:32,100 um, the study didn't have a category for non-binary people, so it was just men and women. 305 00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:38,740 But well over half of men and women at least fantasise about being submissive during sex. 306 00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:41,980 It's no surprise that men fantasise about being dominant. 307 00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:49,580 That's less interesting, but I thought it was fascinating that, like most people, regardless of gender, fantasise about being submissive. 308 00:32:50,220 --> 00:33:00,540 So the idea that submitting during sex is just some sort of bad compromise of our autonomy or of sensuality doesn't fit people's actual sexuality. 309 00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:05,980 Right? So the question is, how can we do that essentially, right? 310 00:33:06,340 --> 00:33:14,380 How can we play with power dynamics and give away our control and submit to somebody else and still have that be ethical and agency? 311 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:20,780 And I think one of the keys is, um, that kind of power differential. 312 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:24,170 I mean, first of all, it shows something that I was talking about at the beginning, 313 00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:32,610 which is that if that can be consensual, then consent definitely does not mean the traditional autonomous chooser. 314 00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:37,330 Who knows exactly what's going to happen and controls everything, right? Because that's exactly what you're saying. 315 00:33:37,570 --> 00:33:38,850 You don't want to be right. 316 00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:47,570 Um, but I think that in order to make that kind of sex agent, we really need to think about how you enter into it and how you leave it. 317 00:33:47,890 --> 00:33:57,210 So I think that two people can negotiate that kind of power differential, but only if outside of it, they start from relatively equal power. 318 00:33:57,810 --> 00:34:02,610 It's never going to be completely equal for the reasons we said, but relatively equal, right. 319 00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:08,450 So two people who are both empowered enough to negotiate with one another well, 320 00:34:08,810 --> 00:34:17,850 and to not be dependent on one another or afraid of one another can negotiate and say, look, I want to have this dynamic with you. 321 00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:23,010 One thing that's crucial is they have to negotiate how they're going to leave it, right. 322 00:34:23,370 --> 00:34:28,650 This is why people use things like safe words to get out of situations they don't want to be in. 323 00:34:28,810 --> 00:34:34,250 If you're going to give over your agency to somebody else and cede control to them, that's great. 324 00:34:34,530 --> 00:34:41,290 And it can be super sexy. But if it goes too far and you no longer want it, you better have a way of being able to get out, right? 325 00:34:42,010 --> 00:34:43,210 But if you have, for example, 326 00:34:43,850 --> 00:34:54,970 a very traditional gendered heterosexual marriage with a very sort of bossy husband who is the sole income owner and is very controlling and a meek, 327 00:34:55,330 --> 00:35:08,610 submissive wife, I think it's literally impossible for them to negotiate with one another as legitimate free agents that they're going to do, 328 00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:15,970 like an S&M scene or a master slave dynamic, or some sort of really extreme domme sub scene, 329 00:35:16,610 --> 00:35:22,730 because the woman is not actually in a position to really stand up to the what the man is trying to negotiate. 330 00:35:23,690 --> 00:35:32,410 Right. Um, if you've got somebody who has, like, no financial way of leaving, um, who is maybe physically afraid of their partner to some extent, 331 00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:38,330 or even has just been sort of inculcated into thinking that they need to please them and do what they say. 332 00:35:39,210 --> 00:35:46,170 They're not in a position to then say, okay, let's do this more extreme thing where you get to tie me up or beat me up and tell me what to do. 333 00:35:46,610 --> 00:35:53,490 Right. But if you have two people who are relatively equal and really good at negotiating, I think it's totally reasonable for them to say, 334 00:35:53,970 --> 00:36:00,650 this would be super fun to within this sort of limited space with these safe checks on it. 335 00:36:01,090 --> 00:36:04,370 Let one of us just give our will over to the other person. 336 00:36:04,770 --> 00:36:08,090 And notice, by the way, we don't just do this in sex. Right. 337 00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:15,770 Um, a lot of us enjoy, for example, having a coach or a trainer who dons us, 338 00:36:16,250 --> 00:36:21,090 who while we're training, we're just like, just tell me what to do, even if I hate it, you know? 339 00:36:21,650 --> 00:36:26,330 For people who work out. Yeah, right. But you recognise that lots of people enjoy it. 340 00:36:26,690 --> 00:36:31,930 Yeah. Yeah, right. You know, like, you don't want to do those last 20 push ups out of the hundred. 341 00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:36,970 Yeah, but you do want somebody standing over you being like, no, keep going. 342 00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:40,530 You're weak. You don't get to stop yet, right? Like that's something we pay money for. 343 00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:48,210 Um, I enjoy having, um, friends who live in cities that I don't know that very that. 344 00:36:48,490 --> 00:36:52,250 Well, don me when I travel, right? Right. Be like. 345 00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:56,370 No, this is where you're eating dinner. This is where we're walking. This is what you're going to do. 346 00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,730 And I like giving myself over to them. Right. 347 00:37:00,050 --> 00:37:07,090 But I have to be able to get out if I want to get out and I, you know, or like, stop with the training session or whatever it may be. 348 00:37:07,330 --> 00:37:09,890 And there has to be like free and equal entering into it. 349 00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:15,770 So I think that ruling out that kind of like radical submission is both unrealistic and would be a loss. 350 00:37:16,970 --> 00:37:21,400 We really enjoy those dynamics, but we need to think about how to get them into get into them essentially. 351 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,920 And I'm very uncomfortable when I see sort of, you know, 352 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:31,320 bossy dummy men with their submissive women partners who are like, oh, no, this is a consensual dynamic. 353 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,640 I'm like, I'm not so sure about that's what it is. It seems to me there's also an interesting question here. 354 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:44,560 When we think about, as you said, the prevalence of the submission fantasies or, you know, people are optimising submission, 355 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:51,200 um, about where that comes from and how authentic that is and, and how that is constructed. 356 00:37:51,680 --> 00:38:00,440 And obviously, you know, the role of cultural norms, patriarchy and pornography, um, you know, eroticism in this. 357 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:08,360 You know, it seems to me that you, you, you have quite a friendly view towards, um, towards that kind of penchant as if. 358 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,720 Well, that's it seems to be there seems to be something natural about this. 359 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,360 That's if we look at the number of people who are interested in it. 360 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,600 But of course, you know, I suppose a counter-narrative could be. 361 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,280 Well, this has kind of been constructed out of inequality. 362 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:31,880 So, I mean, on the one hand, I just want to concede immediately that there's no such thing as, like, pure social activities or pure desires. 363 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:40,080 Like literally every single thing we do, everything we do is constructed and shaped by our culture and so on. 364 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:48,800 So like in that sense, yes, absolutely. Including the fact that a lot of the stuff that's constructing and shaping our desires is toxic and messed up. 365 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:56,880 So all of that, granted. I didn't mean to imply that it was just some sort of pure natural, outside of society impulse that we have. 366 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:04,040 Having said that, a few things that I think are interesting. One is, like I said, it's also over half of men who have this fantasy. 367 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,520 And if anything, one would assume they're getting the opposite message from their culture. 368 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:19,400 Right? And yet they still fantasise about this too, is if you look at if you watch dogs playing or cats playing, 369 00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,960 and here I am, verging on making a claim about naturalness, right? 370 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,920 Mammals like to play with dominance and submission, right? 371 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:38,720 It's when I see dogs play in the dog park and one of them is, you know, rolling over on its back while the other one goes to town on it and so on. 372 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,320 It's very clear that that's a dominance submission dynamic, and it's also clear that it's consensual. 373 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,400 Now not always. Sometimes things go badly and it turns out it wasn't consensual. And they fight. 374 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:54,320 But oftentimes you can watch the dogs negotiate that they're going to play negotiate. 375 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:02,040 Which one of them is going to take the damn role, and which of them is going to take the sub role and then negotiate exit when they're done. 376 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,160 And it's fascinating to watch this. You can see it happen. We used to have a corgi. 377 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,280 Um, may she rest in peace. 378 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:19,030 Um, who we used to call a power bottom because she always wanted the submissive role, but she was really insistent on negotiating it. 379 00:40:19,150 --> 00:40:24,390 So she would, like walk up to other dogs and be like, I am going to submit to you, and you were gonna take me down right now. 380 00:40:26,430 --> 00:40:29,430 So I think this stuff is like it does have a natural component, 381 00:40:30,430 --> 00:40:36,190 and we don't think that the dogs are like replaying an oppressive dynamic when we watch them do it. 382 00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:39,550 But of course, when we do it, it's infused with toxic patriarchy. 383 00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:44,110 It's not pure the way it is when dogs do it. So I'm not denying your point. 384 00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:52,430 It's just I do think that there's sort of a core there of this is fun, you know, and like similarly with my travel dogs, 385 00:40:52,910 --> 00:40:57,790 I like handing myself over to somebody who knows the city better and who I trust. 386 00:40:58,110 --> 00:41:01,830 It's not because they're sort of implicitly oppressing me. It's just fun. 387 00:41:04,990 --> 00:41:08,110 This has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Coca Cola. Thanks. 388 00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:09,150 I really enjoyed talking.