1
00:00:00,540 --> 00:00:06,180
Okay. Thank you. Let's make a start. Welcome to the centre's panel on Criminal Justice Careers.

2
00:00:06,210 --> 00:00:12,870
I'm very pleased to have here today a sparkling array of guests who we have been posting to tell you a bit about their own

3
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:19,340
paths to where the jobs are currently doing and something about the organisations that they they currently or have worked for.

4
00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:27,570
And the general plan is they will each speak for 10 minutes, starting with Rachel Taylor, who because she's on the board behind you,

5
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:35,040
which will be helpful formally about 20 minutes for four questions at the end of the session.

6
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:40,740
And we hope all of that would just kind of morph into into tea and cake, which will take place in the common room.

7
00:00:40,950 --> 00:00:44,700
When we finished and before the approach, her lecture starts at five.

8
00:00:45,060 --> 00:00:52,920
So without further ado, it's my great pleasure to welcome Rachel Taylor from Fisher Meredith Solicitors.

9
00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:56,670
So, Rachel, the 10 minutes floor is yours. Thank you.

10
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:09,180
Now you have to stand in the. All right.

11
00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:17,100
Good afternoon, everybody. So my name is Rachel Taylor and my sister Fisher Meredith, specialising in police and prison law.

12
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,120
I'm going to focus today on police law because of limitations of time.

13
00:01:21,450 --> 00:01:25,830
And also because of the fact that it takes about 80% of my work at my work.

14
00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:36,480
So basically, the issues that my clients come to me about, although it's a very niche kind of practice and it's quite a broad range of problems.

15
00:01:37,410 --> 00:01:42,570
So things from police brutality, which is the normal kind of case that you get.

16
00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:51,270
So things like assault and battery deaths in custody, wrongful arrest and wilful searches, malicious prosecution.

17
00:01:51,270 --> 00:01:57,160
So when the police have taken action against somebody, when they shouldn't have done and it's malicious.

18
00:01:57,180 --> 00:02:00,540
So there's there's a wrongful motivation for that.

19
00:02:01,950 --> 00:02:08,850
If someone's been cautions that can be challenged and general abuses of power, it's just stop and search.

20
00:02:09,030 --> 00:02:12,450
Strip search is a particularly contentious issue at the moment.

21
00:02:13,170 --> 00:02:19,170
Discrimination, especially race discrimination, particularly for metropolitan police.

22
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,270
A lot of my cases centre around that and retention of data.

23
00:02:25,890 --> 00:02:30,600
So for example, things like information, if someone's been arrested,

24
00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:39,510
information of someone's attended a protest and then things like DNA or fingerprint sampling.

25
00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:44,140
Disclosure of data, particularly on criminal records tickets.

26
00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:52,320
So when people apply for a job for protective positions in something like teaching or working with young or vulnerable people.

27
00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:59,160
There's been quite a lot of challenges about what information the police are permitted to disclose on those criminal records,

28
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:05,670
to forget its failures, to investigate this particular new and developing area of law at the moment.

29
00:03:06,450 --> 00:03:15,750
So mainly for deaths and serious sexual assaults, if there are police failings around the investigation,

30
00:03:16,140 --> 00:03:20,100
and then that can give rise to action and then general issues of misfeasance.

31
00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:25,680
And then it really is a really dynamic area of law. The law changes all the time.

32
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:35,010
The kinds of cases that we're dealing with changes all the time. And so and it's also very kind of politically sensitive and socially reactive.

33
00:03:35,610 --> 00:03:44,170
So a good example of that would be the riots in 2011, which one of the main contributing factors about what seemed to be the use of stop and search.

34
00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:48,420
So it really is operating in this very dynamic, very reactive environment.

35
00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:55,620
These are just a few cases which have really hit the headlines in the kind of area of law.

36
00:03:55,650 --> 00:04:02,100
Just to be clear, they're not these weren't my cases, but just so that you can associate with things that you may have seen.

37
00:04:04,810 --> 00:04:15,540
Okay. So the kind of actions that I can take, the groups that I can take when assisting a client are complaints judicial review.

38
00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:22,649
So that's challenging action as being unlawful or challenging a particular policy as being unlawful civil action,

39
00:04:22,650 --> 00:04:26,920
which basically is suing the police and then also inquests.

40
00:04:26,940 --> 00:04:31,590
The reason that that's a bucket is because I've never actually conducted an inquest myself.

41
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:40,290
What I kind of do day to day is a vast range of activities,

42
00:04:41,130 --> 00:04:48,390
but basically my responsibility is to advise and assist the client throughout throughout the course of any potential potential litigation.

43
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:57,510
And at the time, my clients would be very vulnerable. So there is a lot of time spent engaging with the clients, and I'm really assisting them.

44
00:04:58,410 --> 00:05:01,979
A lot of the time they wouldn't have had any kind of engagement with a solicitor before.

45
00:05:01,980 --> 00:05:08,760
So it can be quite a difficult process, particularly if they've they're coming to me with something that's really had quite dramatic effect on them.

46
00:05:10,410 --> 00:05:20,010
So my task would be in constructing a case, obtaining evidence, forensic evidence, witness evidence, CCTV documentary evidence,

47
00:05:20,010 --> 00:05:28,470
and also expert evidence, analysing and constructing the case, carrying out research because it's a very dynamic area of law.

48
00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:32,009
It's something that but it's evolving all the time.

49
00:05:32,010 --> 00:05:41,159
So in order to progress matters, it's a lot for research involved with maximum negotiation with the other side.

50
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,560
So the defendant will be the police.

51
00:05:44,730 --> 00:05:52,230
So engaging in a negotiation with with them, drafting documents, conducting court proceedings and working with barristers.

52
00:05:52,230 --> 00:05:58,710
And as you move towards the trial of the matter at the court, but securing securing funding down there,

53
00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:06,840
that's in brackets because it's kind of aside from the substantive work, but really it should be.

54
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:18,120
Emboldened, underlined, I'm at the top because it's absolutely central to ensuring that the ongoing cases for clients, we have to do that.

55
00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:25,050
Sorry, I think I just. It's Godiva now going.

56
00:06:25,590 --> 00:06:31,920
So that's what I do day to day in the office. And there's also quite a lot of work and activity that I do outside of the office.

57
00:06:33,030 --> 00:06:43,589
So a lot of that is campaigning. The three groups that are left that there are groups I've been particularly involved in, I do some media work.

58
00:06:43,590 --> 00:06:53,130
So interviews and like newspaper that kind of articles and comments and writing as well.

59
00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:57,810
I've just contributed to a book that's about to be published in September,

60
00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:05,610
so one of the groups I work for work with that was listed about is stopwatch.

61
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:15,150
Stopwatch is a coalition of lawyers, of academics, of young people, of activists, basically trying to promote effective and accountable policing.

62
00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:29,700
And those are the main aims that you can see listed. The stopwatch aims to do that in a variety of different ways, whether it be like campaigning,

63
00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:38,430
media work, carrying out research, advocacy or actual litigation.

64
00:07:40,950 --> 00:07:45,930
So that's just one of the research papers that was published years ago.

65
00:07:47,830 --> 00:08:01,750
Oh, did I again? Sorry. Well the publications about stop and search use of stop and search.

66
00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:11,759
This is an article in the Evening Standard last year Guardian comments.

67
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:19,260
And that's me and my friends on London Live a few weeks ago.

68
00:08:21,060 --> 00:08:26,520
Okay, so I'm just a little bit about how I came to be in the position plan.

69
00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:34,380
Sadly, not all of it was on offer. So I studied at Oxford, assaulted nearly exactly ten years ago.

70
00:08:35,670 --> 00:08:41,460
I studied law. I then went on to LSC, where I studied a master's in criminology.

71
00:08:42,630 --> 00:08:49,770
The reason for that was I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to practice law or whether I wanted to engage more ring a policy kind of work.

72
00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:55,139
But I did come to the conclusion that I did have a love for the law things.

73
00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:56,820
And so that's why I came back to do law.

74
00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:04,170
I then did my LPC, which you need to become a solicitor of College of Law, and I'm actually a solicitor advocate,

75
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,980
which means that I'm I can kind of undertake the role of a barrister as well.

76
00:09:08,020 --> 00:09:13,620
So I've got my high rates audience in 2008.

77
00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:18,330
So just after I finished my MSC, I went to Jamaica, represented capital punishment studies,

78
00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:26,219
and there I was mainly doing death row work, going to to assist with the death row cases.

79
00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:29,190
And there was very little legal provision and legal support out there.

80
00:09:29,710 --> 00:09:37,950
So me at 22 was my main point of contact, which I'm sure step of somewhat considerably.

81
00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:51,420
I then went to Houston with Reprieve, where again I was mainly doing or exclusively doing so death row work that was mainly mitigation work.

82
00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:57,899
So carrying out a lot of research investigating our clients backgrounds in order to advocate for

83
00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:02,910
them that they should not be sentenced to death once they've been found guilty of that crime.

84
00:10:04,980 --> 00:10:11,070
These are just a few of the organisations that I've done voluntary work for as well just over the years.

85
00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:17,890
And that gives me. Thanks very much.

86
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:31,700
If you've got any questions for Rachel, talk of New York, a virtual one in which they speak of American politics,

87
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,800
as well as as of the last two weeks from the start of Justice Council.

88
00:10:37,090 --> 00:10:40,930
And Ben, for inviting me. Yes. I'm going to do my presentation.

89
00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:46,600
Kind of where am I going to talk about how I got to where I am first and then a bit about what what I do in my current role as chief executive,

90
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,959
the source of just the kind of search I've been doing for all of nine days.

91
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,420
I see. And said so I don't know how much insight I'll be able to give you, but I'll tell you a bit about what I think I should be doing.

92
00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:58,389
But first of all, how did I get to where I am?

93
00:10:58,390 --> 00:11:05,140
I spent almost all my career working in the voluntary sector, working for charities, working around criminal justice issues.

94
00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:08,650
I should say that I got into the criminal justice world pretty much by mistake.

95
00:11:09,940 --> 00:11:14,620
Having left university first time around, I didn't have any clear idea of what I wanted to do.

96
00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:19,809
I went abroad for a base and then I got a job working for a national charity called Necro,

97
00:11:19,810 --> 00:11:24,580
which works with lots of people coming out of prison or young people at risk of offending to help them turn their lives around.

98
00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:29,560
Just in a straightforward administrative role, I applied for a whole range of charity jobs.

99
00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:34,990
I went to work in the voluntary sector, wants to work for charity, and I got interviews at macro and cancer research.

100
00:11:34,990 --> 00:11:39,370
And if I got the other one, I probably would be doing work around cancer research or health care,

101
00:11:39,370 --> 00:11:42,520
which when I'm doing fundraising, I often think would have been an easier choice anyway.

102
00:11:43,810 --> 00:11:47,680
But so I went into working for that kind of straightforward administrative role.

103
00:11:47,860 --> 00:11:50,560
I think it was there that I really got interested in criminal justice issues,

104
00:11:50,590 --> 00:11:55,239
having already entered the field and slowly made my way through that communications department doing a number

105
00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:01,150
of roles and at the same time did a masters in criminal justice policy at the School of Economics as well.

106
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,170
So and that really gave me a foothold.

107
00:12:05,170 --> 00:12:08,719
It gave me some credibility in terms of looking for more policy based roles.

108
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,620
And my next job, pretty much as soon as I finished my masters,

109
00:12:11,620 --> 00:12:15,460
which MacRobert kind of let me do, I then rather and gratefully left almost straight away.

110
00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:20,580
I went to be a senior policy officer working for a charity called the Fawcett Society.

111
00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:26,770
What some of you may know, it's a relatively small campaigning organisation campaigning around gender equality issues.

112
00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:29,860
And there I let their work on women in the criminal justice system.

113
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:34,270
Well, that meant in practical terms, in terms of what I was doing, it was a policy role in the violence.

114
00:12:34,270 --> 00:12:35,419
That's what that tends to mean.

115
00:12:35,420 --> 00:12:42,610
There's a mixture of producing policy reports, which obviously written reports based largely on existing evidence rather than doing primary research.

116
00:12:42,610 --> 00:12:50,290
They didn't have a small element of primary research about it, which make policy recommendations for for government and for criminal justice agencies.

117
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:59,110
It also had a sort of campaigning angle to it work with a media contact with politicians and policy makers and some campaigning,

118
00:12:59,110 --> 00:13:04,630
public facing campaigning work. So it was a real mixture of different elements of work around women in the criminal justice system.

119
00:13:05,650 --> 00:13:09,280
From there, I moved on again to another small charity called the Criminal Justice Alliance,

120
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:17,440
which represents a coalition of around 65 other criminal justice charities campaigning for a fairer and more effective criminal justice system.

121
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,510
Where I kind of did similar sort of policy and campaigning work with a slightly broader remit,

122
00:13:22,570 --> 00:13:27,610
largely around prisons, probation and sentencing, but also as director of admittedly a very small organisation.

123
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,230
It also involved doing really interesting things like payroll, finance, management,

124
00:13:32,260 --> 00:13:38,530
h.r all that sort of thing that if you work in the voluntary sector ends up on some non-specialists kind of desk to try and get through.

125
00:13:40,330 --> 00:13:45,640
I did that for about four years, growing the organisation slightly so I could.

126
00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:50,230
It was a big incentive to fundraise and bring in people so that they could do the payroll and the finance and that sort of stuff.

127
00:13:51,010 --> 00:13:54,669
And since then, I spent three years at another small charity called the Police Foundation,

128
00:13:54,670 --> 00:13:59,139
which is a policing, research and policy development organisation.

129
00:13:59,140 --> 00:14:03,790
And I'm now as of last week, I'm chief executive of a charity called the Restorative Justice Council.

130
00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:09,610
As the name suggests, it's an organisation that works around restorative justice issues.

131
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,380
I can have a look at my notes here because like I said, I've only been there for ten days. I don't wanna forget anything really important that we do.

132
00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:19,570
So sort of first of all, just Restorative Justice Council and what we do.

133
00:14:21,550 --> 00:14:25,090
And I'll tell you a bit about why I do that as chief executive of the charity as a whole,

134
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:29,169
I'm going to assume you all know largely about restorative justice is given your

135
00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:32,740
background is bringing together victims and offenders to try and repair the harm done.

136
00:14:33,770 --> 00:14:38,319
I think that was a really important time for the development and spread of restorative justice is something that is

137
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:43,450
quite widespread support for all three political parties and the Ministry of Justice would like to see more of it.

138
00:14:43,450 --> 00:14:46,150
There's quite a bit of evidence behind it now,

139
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,910
but despite all that and quite a long term push to have more of it, it's fairly marginal for the justice system.

140
00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:57,070
It's availability is hugely variable between different geographical areas and different parts of criminal justice system.

141
00:14:57,850 --> 00:15:00,400
And even why criminal justice agencies do restorative justice,

142
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:05,200
they often don't do very well or in some cases don't do anything that would really be thought of as restorative justice.

143
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:11,620
So our job with Restorative Justice Council and we just received some Ministry of Justice funding to do this,

144
00:15:11,890 --> 00:15:16,850
is to try and set standards for sorts of justice. What does good restorative justice look like and.

145
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:19,600
How can we quality assure delivery to make sure that that's happening?

146
00:15:20,290 --> 00:15:26,740
This is government funding that presents all sorts of challenges for a medium sized giants who've got about 15 or 16 staff at the moment.

147
00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:32,770
Because we've also got a campaigning and lobbying arm. So on the one hand, we're taking money from governments to work for them.

148
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,280
And on the other hand, we're lobbying them, telling them they're doing things wrong and they should be doing it differently.

149
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:39,700
That's quite common tension in the in the voluntary sector at the moment.

150
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:43,150
It's quite straightforward because our aims, the Ministry of Justice, is a broadly in line.

151
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,510
Alex I've only been there a week, but undoubtedly at some points that tension will play out.

152
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,030
And again, it's not unusual in the voluntary sector to be dealing with that.

153
00:15:55,770 --> 00:16:01,770
In terms of what I do, there's a whole sort of mixture of different things.

154
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,080
Like I said, I've only been there a fortnight, so mostly at the moment I just try to remember people's names and that sort of thing.

155
00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:10,860
So I work out some a computer on, but I guess my role is largely fit into three broad areas.

156
00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:17,370
The first bit and the most interesting bit is being the public face of the organisation, which is worrying in lots of ways,

157
00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:22,409
but it is my role nonetheless and that's really about promoting restorative justice counsel and restorative justice,

158
00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:31,770
and that's through engaging the stakeholders, meetings with policymakers, others, decision makers, media work, which is all glamour.

159
00:16:31,770 --> 00:16:38,819
I was on three counties radio at six. I am talking about looting, yachts, restorative justice quality marked a couple of days ago,

160
00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:42,030
which was every bit as thrilling as it sounds being asked why,

161
00:16:42,450 --> 00:16:46,919
why is involved why resources just didn't involve going into the offender's house with a baseball bat?

162
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,770
A question that I literally couldn't think of an answer to. But there are there are more interesting bits of media.

163
00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:57,720
There's also speaking events, conferences and a whole range of different bits of outward facing engagement.

164
00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:59,129
That's, I think, the most interesting.

165
00:16:59,130 --> 00:17:06,360
But the second bit is about managing people primarily, and I manage a talented and committed team who do almost all of the work of the organisation.

166
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:13,320
And my job is well, apart from taking the credit for that, it's about making sure that what we want to get delivered gets delivered and what we do

167
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,340
adds up to very least the sum of all those little bits and hopefully some more than that.

168
00:17:18,330 --> 00:17:20,700
And the third bit, which is a really important part of my job,

169
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:25,679
it's a really important part of senior management in the voluntary sector and is something for which I've had

170
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,840
absolutely no training is the kind of organisational development and making sure we work as an organisation.

171
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:37,290
Almost anyone who works in a senior position, the volunteers has to do things like strategic planning, organisational management and fundraising.

172
00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:43,170
It's not I'm a sort of policy wonk by background. It's not something I know very much about and it's but it is a really important part of my job.

173
00:17:43,170 --> 00:17:49,260
And being able to do that, at least to a tolerably good standard, I think is a really important part of working in the voluntary sector.

174
00:17:50,910 --> 00:17:56,040
And fundraising, like I said, is important part of that, and it's the bit that makes sure the organisation is going to survive into the future.

175
00:17:57,150 --> 00:17:59,520
Subsequent round up of what I do now and how I got there.

176
00:17:59,870 --> 00:18:04,770
I think working in the voluntary sector is really interesting and challenging for lots of reasons.

177
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,340
I really value the independence that it gives us,

178
00:18:08,580 --> 00:18:15,389
but other people find that with that independence comes the problem of being an outsider and not being able to get access to the things that you want,

179
00:18:15,390 --> 00:18:20,580
whether that's information for research or whether that's access for sort of lobbying, campaigning purposes.

180
00:18:21,390 --> 00:18:25,140
And also, you don't work in the voluntary sector. You don't have any power.

181
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,440
You can only persuade people to do things. It's very rare that you can actually tell them to.

182
00:18:28,830 --> 00:18:32,819
Some people find that some people I've worked with find that sort of outsider position very challenging.

183
00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:35,130
Other people, I've always found it very beneficial.

184
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,630
I think the other thing to say about sort of my career through the volunteers such as I've reflected on,

185
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:45,900
is that it involves a whole number of very different non-specialist skills.

186
00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:51,150
I've done all sorts of things from policy campaigning, media, like I said, things about organisational developments.

187
00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:51,890
It's something,

188
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:57,240
it's a sector where you tend to be able to turn your hand to everything and where you have to be willing to learn new skills as you go along.

189
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,610
And I think that I've only managed to get the jobs I've got by being willing to take on different things as so many opportunities have arisen.

190
00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:08,400
So that's a sort of very brief insight into a voluntary sector career challenging, I think, interesting,

191
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:13,229
largely chaotic a lot of the time, and probably not what I thought I would have been doing when I left university.

192
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:18,090
And it's often incredibly difficult to explain to people what it is that I do, too, but I'd recommend it, I think, nonetheless.

193
00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:27,110
Thank you very much. And I think I'm part of songs from the Oxford Service.

194
00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:35,790
Hello. And I'd approach it slightly differently. Hey, how am I suppose I am.

195
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:44,010
I'm a senior manager within the public sector. I see myself as a social worker first and foremost, and a Scottish social worker at that.

196
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,650
This will become more relevant later.

197
00:19:47,370 --> 00:19:53,940
But what I want to do is actually look at some of the key concepts, a bit of a run through my little world, in my little head,

198
00:19:54,120 --> 00:20:03,870
and actually trying to work out how can we be true to what I think are some of the key fundamental issues facing young people today?

199
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:08,700
So when I left university, which is a long time ago, I was a young person.

200
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,780
And I think that's the premise that as whatever career you choose and you will choose many different careers in many different forms,

201
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,150
I suppose one word of warning as you've become the future leaders, I guess,

202
00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:24,390
is be true to the some of those fundamental values that you started out with.

203
00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:29,760
And so I'm going to break this down a bit. So I'm going to talk about youth. And because I like wordplay playing, what does that mean?

204
00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:37,110
We'll talk about a bit about Scotland because I love Scotland and then I'm going to just have a guess what is going to come in the future.

205
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:44,430
And I got to do that in about 8 minutes. Okay. Youth offending what is youth is a basic concept, isn't it really?

206
00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:49,890
We think we know what it means. Do we? The age of criminal responsibility in England is ten.

207
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:54,060
In Scotland is eight. In Germany is 40.

208
00:20:54,460 --> 00:21:05,970
And I think in Scandinavia it's 15. But in England and Wales and we say that at 18 you are fully fledged adults.

209
00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:13,440
That's interesting. At 18 we know what is right and wrong, good and bad.

210
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,120
At 17, we know that.

211
00:21:15,210 --> 00:21:24,420
At 16, we know that at ten, particularly when you think of some of the neurological research going on, our brains are developing up until 25.

212
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,700
So you guys, some of you, Leslie, I don't know, probably are still growing, but you are growing until you're 25.

213
00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:32,870
Fantastic. You're working out.

214
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,360
What is the world around you? Well, that's quite interesting.

215
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:42,990
Well, so we're not quite sure what youth is. We're not quite sure what the age of responsibility is really.

216
00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:45,720
So then what happens?

217
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:55,830
Then we say, okay, if you belong to some of the most disadvantaged areas socially, economically, that you have generation upon generation of abuse,

218
00:21:56,340 --> 00:22:04,710
we are then going to put to you the same standard as if you had a loving parents school background, etc., etc.

219
00:22:05,130 --> 00:22:08,610
Does that seem fair? Does that look okay?

220
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,690
Offending. Hmm. I think fences coming in that fashion.

221
00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:22,200
If you happen to be, I don't know, a member of the Bullingdon Club, for example, in trash,

222
00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:28,530
a restaurant in Oxford, are you likely to get arrested or invited from the next prime minister?

223
00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:37,290
No idea. But if you did. If you're 17 and you're McDonald's and the age of the boss in the state, are you like to get arrested?

224
00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:45,540
I'd like to be facing a jury. It's these are intentionally trying to make you think, what is it we're trying to do?

225
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:49,650
And justice for what? Actually for whom?

226
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,750
Why are we when we say you've just this and when we're trying to make the world a better place?

227
00:22:54,990 --> 00:23:01,340
To what end? By whose definition? Scotland.

228
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:08,760
Yes. And the reason I bring Scotland into this is and I trained as a lawyer in England,

229
00:23:08,770 --> 00:23:12,330
then I went to Scotland and I went studying with and my masters there.

230
00:23:12,370 --> 00:23:18,880
And the big and driver then was a guy called Kil Brandon who divorced the behaviour of a child.

231
00:23:20,780 --> 00:23:26,629
From the Shard itself made a system that was more child friendly,

232
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:32,600
which by that I mean that actually it said the responsibility is not with the individual, it is with society.

233
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:35,140
It is a political issue, though, I suppose.

234
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:43,010
Now that raises some interesting questions, isn't it, hanging with that child who's kicking off, who is presenting aggressive behaviour?

235
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:52,669
That is our responsibility. We are responsible for some of the stuff that happens on the county road, makes your head go wobbly, makes mine go wobbly.

236
00:23:52,670 --> 00:23:59,090
Anyway, it's that sense of and then to do that I suppose within the state,

237
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,950
within I increasingly little but little sides agenda where the state is shrinking.

238
00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:08,000
And I think some of the dilemmas John faces I face every day as well,

239
00:24:08,210 --> 00:24:16,370
because there are some things are clearly not okay by anyone's definition, irrespective of your political persuasion, mostly.

240
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:21,350
Kim Brendan was also very interested in the voice of the child.

241
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:31,760
But how do articulate children who have who have been neurologically damaged, who have been repeatedly abused to give a voice, how do we do that?

242
00:24:33,020 --> 00:24:34,399
How do we encourage that?

243
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:41,960
This person, who has been her son, repeated hers over and over again, can actually have the courage to say what he or she needs.

244
00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:47,750
These are thoughts I go through my mind when I manage a youth spending service.

245
00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:55,580
What he also is also interesting to me is the fact that in England in particular,

246
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,310
not Scotland, the criminal justice system is very, very difficult to understand.

247
00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:13,130
And we expect children to work out how to behave in court, the same standard we would expect of children with defined issues.

248
00:25:13,340 --> 00:25:18,360
That is just not okay. The future, then?

249
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:26,620
Well. I do think we are in some very interesting times.

250
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:33,180
Offending is actually reducing. We do have one of the safest countries in the world.

251
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,380
In fact, youth crime is at its lowest it's ever been.

252
00:25:37,860 --> 00:25:42,240
Also fact, the victims of crime are often young people, which is often ignored.

253
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,780
The same young people. Curious. So what is going on?

254
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,420
No one knows. I mean, probably one of the places, if you will, that wouldn't be would be at understand the question.

255
00:25:51,630 --> 00:25:55,470
Why is youth crime reducing the speculation? That's to do with the Internet.

256
00:25:55,770 --> 00:25:57,420
The speculation to social media.

257
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:04,920
That's the word on the streets that actually more and more kids are actually using different types of interaction over the net.

258
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:11,580
Well, if that's the case, are they more vulnerable, less vulnerable than they are on the outside?

259
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:18,730
I haven't constantly told you. I do, because I actually think that's not important.

260
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:26,050
I like it isn't. What is important is, I think from my perspective, the values that you're going to hold, whatever career you're going to choose.

261
00:26:26,290 --> 00:26:33,250
And to really think it through. I get and I get to see books when I was younger, thank God.

262
00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:40,630
And there's a quote from Crime and Punishment. And and I can't remember this, but something like this.

263
00:26:40,930 --> 00:26:47,290
It is. Do you understand, sir? Do you really understand what it means when you have nowhere to go?

264
00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:51,750
Absolutely nowhere to go. I response.

265
00:26:51,870 --> 00:26:56,850
It came to mind for every man must have somewhere to go.

266
00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:04,100
I would say social work in particular gives an opportunity for a child or song is heard.

267
00:27:04,750 --> 00:27:08,740
Way to go. That's it. Thank you very much.

268
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:18,910
And next week is now and you'll have to tell you what VOPAK stands for.

269
00:27:20,410 --> 00:27:28,420
Right. Okay. I'm the longest in the tooth person here, and I've spanned a number of continents as well.

270
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,880
I graduated from university in 1972.

271
00:27:35,650 --> 00:27:48,160
My first job was in 1971. As a researcher on a we were looking at drug free therapeutic communities on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.

272
00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:57,240
I was a criminologist and a crime, and I still am. And I can still consider myself a criminologist.

273
00:27:57,260 --> 00:28:11,930
I'll sort of pick up on the plea around values because I think if I find any thread with the last 43 years, it is that thread.

274
00:28:15,170 --> 00:28:19,790
I'll talk about four different parts of my life which still exist.

275
00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:23,800
I'm an activist. I'm a professor.

276
00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:27,890
I'm a researcher. I'm a policy person.

277
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,350
And my current job. I love the title.

278
00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:40,190
I didn't make that up myself. I'm the head of evidence and insight for the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime.

279
00:28:42,020 --> 00:28:50,419
I've worked in four large research think tanks.

280
00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:58,580
I have worked for universities. I've worked for the Prime Minister, a guy named Tony Blair.

281
00:29:00,050 --> 00:29:07,400
I work for police commissioners and I've worked for five of those since I was in the Metropolitan Police Service.

282
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:11,840
And now I'm working for mayor. I'm Boris.

283
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:16,600
Who might have been a member of the Burlington County.

284
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:32,299
The kinds of things that I've done in terms of both thinking about how criminology dovetails, activism and improvement.

285
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:48,110
Because a lot of what I do now is I usually have data on in one hand and a two by four in the other hand to push a criminal justice system.

286
00:29:48,110 --> 00:29:53,810
And I can say that actually, because I'm working in London, I am actually working nationally and internationally.

287
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,459
Two weeks ago I was in New Zealand, the behest of the Minister of Justice of New Zealand,

288
00:29:58,460 --> 00:30:03,760
talking about joined up justice and how New Zealand very interesting place.

289
00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:10,100
Now I think on the cusp of doing some quite innovative work to start merging the

290
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,810
benefits of thinking about victimisation and offending in very different kinds of

291
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:23,510
ways so that they're not separate and that you have something like problem solving

292
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:31,460
courts which enable you to not separate out justice as if it is only for victims,

293
00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:40,500
only about offending or only about society. In 1978, I founded a refuge for battered women.

294
00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:45,510
And if anybody's ever read any of my work on violence against women,

295
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:55,260
that work was totally influenced by sitting around kitchen tables with women who were fleeing violent men.

296
00:30:56,580 --> 00:31:01,590
And that's where I learned my work around thinking about violence.

297
00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:12,660
It was first from the women themselves and then looking at the criminological literature and finding that actually it was totally strange.

298
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:19,170
It was in a language that, first of all, privileged in those days, stranger crime.

299
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:25,680
And if anything has changed in the 30 I sorry, 43 years that I've been doing this work,

300
00:31:25,950 --> 00:31:30,650
we no longer assume that violence against women is a stranger based event.

301
00:31:30,660 --> 00:31:35,280
That has changed. The other thing that I can say is things do change in your lifetime.

302
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:47,370
And the whole concept of violence against women is now one of known danger, not stranger danger of accessible danger.

303
00:31:47,370 --> 00:31:58,650
Not some Bush lurker who is rare is very, very rare.

304
00:31:59,010 --> 00:32:11,940
Exists, but is rare. So the kinds of careers that I had I started doing it started with the therapeutic communities work,

305
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:18,810
but also did an evaluation of the drug mandatory drug laws in New York.

306
00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:21,629
That was my one of my big projects.

307
00:32:21,630 --> 00:32:31,080
I was the quantitative researcher on that project and vowed that I would never, ever, ever in my entire life ever work for government again.

308
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:39,300
So sometimes you change your mind because actually you're better at being a chameleon than you are.

309
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:48,270
So one of the things that I decided to do was to go inside the belly of the beast and to do change from within and put that.

310
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,629
I missed the next 25 years, so I'll go back to that. I was a university professor.

311
00:32:54,630 --> 00:33:05,610
I've taught in universities in the US and the UK and much of that work was looking specifically at some violence against women.

312
00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:09,720
Fear of crime. One of my most hated concepts in the world.

313
00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:12,930
Don't ask me about it, but I can talk to you about, if you like,

314
00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:18,330
how I ended up working with Ben because I wanted to make sure that fear of crime was never spoken about ever again.

315
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,090
But we can talk about that later.

316
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:32,920
But a significant part of my career was being the the research director of the Economic and Social Research Council's Program on Violence,

317
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:39,850
which was a five year research program in the UK with 20 projects across the UK looking at violence in prisons,

318
00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:46,900
domestic violence and pregnancy, violence in schools, lots of different kinds of forms of violence.

319
00:33:46,990 --> 00:33:53,050
What that basically did for me was very much my own work was based in looking at violence against women,

320
00:33:54,190 --> 00:33:59,409
was move me up into a different kind of strategic level in my own thinking and think

321
00:33:59,410 --> 00:34:05,770
about how I could take the lessons of research to practitioners and policymakers.

322
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:08,830
And actually, that's when I changed.

323
00:34:09,820 --> 00:34:17,590
I mean, I didn't change, which is one of the problems. I've always been a bit wacky, but what I decided to do that maybe I could do that for a living.

324
00:34:18,250 --> 00:34:24,700
And that's when I made the decision to go. I applied for this job in a cabinet office and I did not expect to get it.

325
00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:29,050
Oops, they hired me. That was that was a surprise.

326
00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:31,270
I was very surprised to get that job.

327
00:34:33,490 --> 00:34:40,690
So it was 18 months working in something called the Office of Public Services Reform, which was looking at general criminal justice improvement.

328
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:49,600
And one of my projects there was a smaller project called Citizen Focussed Policing, which was the whole work around the satisfaction of police.

329
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,740
Satisfaction of, of victims by police service.

330
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:01,440
And I began to realise that actually lots of the different kinds of things that I was doing in

331
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:07,610
terms of my own academic work really needed to be translated into an inside criminal justice.

332
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:16,560
So that's really why I sort of went in. I just thought, people think I'm nice, so I like to get dressed up.

333
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,250
I can work in those areas where they never really thought I would be such a huge

334
00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:29,610
troublemaker or really challenging or as radical as I might be in my own values and things.

335
00:35:29,610 --> 00:35:37,350
They they somehow let me in. Why? And I'm sure there was lots of my colleagues when I joined the Mexican police service 18 months later,

336
00:35:37,860 --> 00:35:41,670
ten and a half years inside the Metropolitan Police Service. That I'm still alive.

337
00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:53,030
My colleagues there never, ever thought that I where I'm sure there were bets taken perhaps and of how long I would last inside

338
00:35:53,030 --> 00:36:01,580
the Met because it was it's not something that's necessarily overly compatible with my politics.

339
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:09,590
But yet because I had done research with the New York City police in the early mid seventies,

340
00:36:09,890 --> 00:36:16,220
I started my my part of my Ph.D. involved riding around squad cars on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.

341
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,870
And the work that I did in Worcester, Massachusetts,

342
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:27,200
with the battered women's refuge while I was running a master's in criminal justice course at the university.

343
00:36:27,590 --> 00:36:35,630
And I had many police officers as my students, so I had no problems working with police.

344
00:36:36,620 --> 00:36:43,760
When I came to the UK in 1982, I came as a refugee from a sexual harassment case.

345
00:36:48,250 --> 00:36:59,070
I had to leave the United States because my case challenged the left in the United States.

346
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:06,760
The person that sued me or initially was one of the leaders of the left movement in the United States.

347
00:37:07,750 --> 00:37:19,540
I was in a university position and I was an untenured sociology professor who decided not to let it happen anymore in my university.

348
00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:34,690
So when I came to the UK, I came with feminist credentials that were impeccable and therefore I had an ability to to work in the

349
00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:41,300
kind of radical feminist community and do work in the academic community and pass between the two.

350
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:47,560
And in those days, in the early eighties, there was quite a lot of tension going on in those different camps.

351
00:37:50,220 --> 00:37:57,240
So I've been able to combine my personal experience of what it's like to be a litigant in a fairly famous case.

352
00:37:57,660 --> 00:38:08,610
I had to do my own publicity in those days, and the kind of work I've done and taken through that thread that I took you through ended up in Tennant

353
00:38:08,610 --> 00:38:13,320
as one of the reasons why I was such a stubborn person ten and a half years in the Metropolitan Police,

354
00:38:13,980 --> 00:38:20,850
and within that context was able to do and it took ten and a half years to get some traction

355
00:38:20,850 --> 00:38:29,970
with some I think now research which has is robust academically standing research that enables.

356
00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:38,420
The police not to go backwards. Well, it's very easy for that to happen.

357
00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:42,150
It takes less than a nanosecond for that to happen.

358
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,390
But there are certain kinds of things, certain stakes that are in the ground now, which I think are quite important.

359
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:55,180
Not that. Not that it has been solved.

360
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:04,090
The only a month ago I appeared on Channel four television breaking the eight and a half years of research I did on rape,

361
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:08,860
which is now you will see in the next month I can't talk about it,

362
00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:14,050
but the next month there will be some things that are about to come out that will take that to another step.

363
00:39:15,370 --> 00:39:21,430
What you have noticed, I would hope, for those of you who have been following the operation, Yewtree,

364
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:29,439
is the language that's presented in court has changed in those four very famous trials and have just occurred,

365
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,770
the most famous of which is currently going on, which is the Rolf Harris case.

366
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:40,810
So I encourage you to think about the language that's being used in those four cases and this fourth one.

367
00:39:40,990 --> 00:39:46,870
The language of exploitation is now explicit in the deep sea case.

368
00:39:47,110 --> 00:39:54,520
So I suggest that and actually I feel comfortable to say that I think I probably influence some of that.

369
00:39:56,740 --> 00:40:00,640
So I'm in my my interest in the eye long in the tooth.

370
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:04,560
Life has been changed. I think there's a threat in that change.

371
00:40:04,570 --> 00:40:14,649
It has always accompanied robust academic standards in terms of the challenges that I put in front of every single institution I've ever worked for,

372
00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:19,390
including the universities, but also the police service and others as well.

373
00:40:19,420 --> 00:40:23,420
So it gives you a bit of a flavour. Thank you.

374
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:32,320
I see I'm right off on speaker for this great question just from national news.

375
00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:41,090
Thanks. So I work for Amnesty International and I'm in the legal office at Amnesty.

376
00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:51,319
I think a lot of people know more or less what Amnesty does. The legend of its origin is that a British lawyer on his way to work one day picked up a

377
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:57,040
newspaper and saw that Portuguese students had been arrested for for toasting freedom.

378
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:04,520
Right. And so with any kind of this group and the idea was to to to sort of like highlight cases of political prisoners.

379
00:41:04,970 --> 00:41:12,860
And of course, now it does much more than that. More than just those who are arrested for their politics and for who they are.

380
00:41:12,890 --> 00:41:16,760
We're also looking at human rights issues generally.

381
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,870
And 50 years later, it's it's the largest human rights organisation in the world, in fact.

382
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:30,050
A lot of what we end up doing is, is on the basis of the research that we've undertaken wherever wherever it is that we're working.

383
00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:36,260
So I'll say a few things about some of the pieces of work that I've been involved in directly to give a sense of that.

384
00:41:37,580 --> 00:41:45,170
But of course, what I want to say about the research is that it's not just research for the sake of doing it, it's in order.

385
00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:49,000
The purpose of it is to generate change the framework as a human rights framework.

386
00:41:49,010 --> 00:41:53,390
So the idea is we've identified human rights violations.

387
00:41:53,780 --> 00:42:02,479
We in the course of the research, we identify what think what things we think need to be changed and who has the

388
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,300
power to make those changes or should have the power to make those changes.

389
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:10,550
And then we prepare recommendations in order to see those changes actually implemented.

390
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:18,170
That's the beginning of the process that involves a whole host of work afterwards that might be lobbying

391
00:42:18,170 --> 00:42:24,830
with government officials for changes in practice and in policy with lawmakers for for for legal change.

392
00:42:25,370 --> 00:42:33,320
It might mean going to the courts in some instances either either either amnesty doing it or groups that we work with doing it.

393
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,290
It could mean a variety of other methods.

394
00:42:36,290 --> 00:42:45,470
But but the idea behind the work is not just to document human rights violations, but to do it with a purpose, with the purpose of changing it.

395
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:58,790
So the basic method is that one or more of us goes, and after having sort of done the preliminary work to identify, you know,

396
00:42:58,790 --> 00:43:05,420
in a broad sense, what we think the issues are, we go and we speak to the people who are most directly affected by the issue.

397
00:43:05,930 --> 00:43:13,130
And so a typical example that's that might be of interest to this group is conditions of detention.

398
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,940
It was the first thing that I did when I was that before amnesty.

399
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:18,890
I worked for ten years at Human Rights Watch.

400
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:29,270
So I was 26 years old and I went into 15 Venezuelan prisons and and inspected sort of the conditions there and talked to hundreds of detainees,

401
00:43:29,660 --> 00:43:36,410
talked to prison officials, and then did a whole bunch of interviews around the sort of the edges of that to get the get the context.

402
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:44,659
And that means sort of walking into prisons and then with a notebook sitting down with with individual detainees and getting their their accounts.

403
00:43:44,660 --> 00:43:48,500
And there's a whole sort of methodological question, series of questions about that,

404
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:56,180
that we actually spend a period of of of two weeks training the researchers.

405
00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:58,399
And so it's very, very, you know, we can't really go into that.

406
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:05,660
But of course, there's a whole set of protocols that we have to observe around things like the safety of the people we're interviewing,

407
00:44:06,620 --> 00:44:11,449
ensuring that they know what their what risks they're taking, that we respect the fact that they're taking risks.

408
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:19,970
I mean, you all are used to this from from the context in which you have done research, but it does become fairly critical,

409
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:26,960
fairly pertinent, immediately pertinent when the consequence of something you do might be torture or death.

410
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,870
So we have to we have to take this law very, very seriously.

411
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:38,510
It also means some some interesting points about what the research we do does and doesn't say.

412
00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:40,520
And I think that's also interesting for this group,

413
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:47,479
because more and more human rights organisations are appreciating that as important as it is to get human accounts,

414
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:53,120
to get individual accounts of what people's experiences are, that's not representative,

415
00:44:53,120 --> 00:45:01,910
of course, and especially when we deal with things that aren't the individual Portuguese student who was arrested for raising a toast to freedom,

416
00:45:02,210 --> 00:45:10,760
but rather patterns of discrimination or, you know, tackling inequity in other forms.

417
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,510
We need something that's a little bit more robust than just we talk to a few people.

418
00:45:16,070 --> 00:45:22,280
So we're having to to explore a range of methods that that allows us to test the.

419
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:33,770
Reliability of what it is we're doing. By and large, fortunately, and through the use of of of testing these things through lots of secondary sources,

420
00:45:33,770 --> 00:45:39,320
I think we're able to say that we were able to do most of what we do is not contested.

421
00:45:40,910 --> 00:45:48,150
When you get really, really down to it by people in the situations, government officials or you know,

422
00:45:48,170 --> 00:45:51,200
or those who are living in the communities that we're talking about,

423
00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:56,480
of course, you know, it's always going to be a big show and dance about how we deny all these allegations and so on.

424
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:04,250
But privately, at least, officials will often tell us, okay, yeah, that but really does that really does stand up to to what our experiences.

425
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:12,770
But we do need to be much more rigorous in how it is that we do this. And so I think looking forward in the work that I do in particular,

426
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:22,700
I'm going to be calling on many more of the sort of social science kinds of research methods to be able to look at things,

427
00:46:23,210 --> 00:46:30,830
whether it's in the, in the area of of criminal justice or in any of the other kinds of human rights considerations we're looking at.

428
00:46:31,010 --> 00:46:34,310
And in particular, when we're looking at things that are economic, social and cultural.

429
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:44,899
I'll say to say two words about policy, because before we before we I'm the department that I'm in thinks about human rights

430
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:50,990
policy and thinks about public policy that is conducive to respect for human rights,

431
00:46:50,990 --> 00:46:57,290
the promotion of human rights. And so before we undertake a particular research project,

432
00:46:57,290 --> 00:47:02,299
we're thinking about what human rights policies and what what public policies we need to see from

433
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:09,860
the states or how it is that the policy framework is not consistent with respect for human rights.

434
00:47:10,730 --> 00:47:20,180
So a couple of examples. I never get through them all. The one thing that we're often seeing is a disconnect in in public policies.

435
00:47:21,110 --> 00:47:23,569
An example, picking up on some of the drug work,

436
00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:32,420
is it it has been known for a long time what injecting drug users need not to if they want to stop doing that.

437
00:47:32,750 --> 00:47:38,170
And the combination of methadone treatment and the availability of clean needles so

438
00:47:38,450 --> 00:47:43,880
people just can't stop overnight sort of faith based healing is is not does not work.

439
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:50,659
So the city of Vancouver about ten years ago was was offering needle exchange programs.

440
00:47:50,660 --> 00:47:55,520
And you could go and you could get you and you don't just get clean needles that you turned in a needle, use needle.

441
00:47:55,940 --> 00:48:01,310
And the Vancouver police would stand outside, arrest everybody systematically who walked away from that needle exchange.

442
00:48:02,900 --> 00:48:12,470
A similar a similar disconnect in social policy is the the in thinking about HIV prevention and the,

443
00:48:12,860 --> 00:48:18,920
you know, condom use as a major sort of way, way, among others, of preventing the spread of HIV.

444
00:48:19,550 --> 00:48:25,530
And this is and it's been known for years that that that sex workers are at particular risk of,

445
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:32,659
particularly women who are sex workers are at particular risk of getting HIV when condoms aren't used aren't used properly.

446
00:48:32,660 --> 00:48:41,239
And, you know, we won't go into the whole public health literature here. But the critical thing then is that we need distribution of condoms.

447
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,280
You need free condoms. We need uptake in condoms.

448
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:50,540
We need you know, there's a whole series of very, very obvious steps that need to be taken that authorities, by and large accept.

449
00:48:51,230 --> 00:49:00,230
Nevertheless, New York City, up until about two weeks ago and four other three other major U.S. cities, San Francisco among them,

450
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,620
use or used in the case of New York City,

451
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:11,720
possession of condoms as evidence of the crime of solicitation or other things connected to prostitution, to sex work.

452
00:49:13,730 --> 00:49:18,559
That, of course, leads to people who engage in these activities,

453
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,510
not carrying the things that we're trying to get them to to use in order to prevent the spread of HIV.

454
00:49:23,900 --> 00:49:30,229
This connected social policy. I have time for one more thing about policy issues,

455
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:38,750
which is I think it's fascinating the way that criminalisation is sort of at the sharp end of a series of

456
00:49:38,750 --> 00:49:45,560
of other policy steps or practices that that either violate directly or potentially violate human rights.

457
00:49:46,010 --> 00:49:53,899
So we've been looking a lot at at sexuality about things and things to do with starting with same sex sexual conduct,

458
00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:55,310
which is criminal in much of the world,

459
00:49:55,790 --> 00:50:05,209
and then thinking about the whole range of other laws, not necessarily criminal laws or the way that the systems,

460
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:13,190
legal systems and social norms work to entrench discrimination in same sex sexual conduct.

461
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:20,060
I've mentioned criminal criminal in the United States until until very, very until about ten years ago, this country did much better on that.

462
00:50:20,930 --> 00:50:23,360
And Europe in general does much better on that front.

463
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:36,380
But but it does much worse in some of the other areas of what we would regard in for straight people as as basic aspects of family life.

464
00:50:36,590 --> 00:50:38,270
So the ability, of course, to marry you want to,

465
00:50:38,270 --> 00:50:47,480
but also to have the kind of family you want to adoption laws or for other aspects of of the ability to lead to lead the life with your family.

466
00:50:48,530 --> 00:50:51,950
Amnesty's submitted third party,

467
00:50:52,220 --> 00:50:57,410
amicus briefs in a couple of cases in the European Court of Human Rights that

468
00:50:57,410 --> 00:51:03,230
deal with questions relating to the sort of both the stereotypical use of,

469
00:51:03,740 --> 00:51:12,110
you know, what a family is to inform law and policy, and also what the attendant consequences are for the families themselves,

470
00:51:12,110 --> 00:51:17,600
for four children in those families and for the members of those of those families.

471
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:21,590
So in one case that I mentioned, it's called ex versus Austria.

472
00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:36,440
A a kid is a teenager is living with two parents, same sex couple who are I think they have a civil civil partnership in Austria.

473
00:51:37,130 --> 00:51:43,820
He wants to adopt the second mother. He wants the second mother to adopt him so that they can be a recognised family.

474
00:51:44,450 --> 00:51:50,120
And the social worker recognises that's in the kid's best interest and everybody is in agreement that this is a very, very good thing.

475
00:51:50,540 --> 00:51:54,020
But Austrian law allows one male parent and one female parent.

476
00:51:54,170 --> 00:51:58,340
This is not uncommon in Europe. And so there's there's this whole sort of, you know,

477
00:51:58,610 --> 00:52:05,509
legal framework that does not accept sort of essentially what this family yesterday

478
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:09,320
the way the way some people at least are living their lives and are free to do so.

479
00:52:09,980 --> 00:52:13,969
That is sort of I think not, of course, criminal, but it's flowing.

480
00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:19,520
It's part of this larger picture of how at the sharp end criminal law is used.

481
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:25,160
But but other kinds of laws and policies are used to reinforce and entrench discrimination.

482
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,200
I'll stop there. Thank you very much. Right.

483
00:52:30,210 --> 00:52:31,620
Well, that's been absolutely fascinating.

484
00:52:31,620 --> 00:52:39,540
And we've now got 20 minutes for questions and discussion, at least before we continue that in a more informal setting.

485
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,959
So the floor is open. I've been doing the recording of this session this week, creating a podcast.

486
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,550
If I could read the page, everyone has a question so that it gets on this machine from here.

487
00:52:51,150 --> 00:52:54,290
So when you see me start doing that, it's not because I'm choosing speakers.

488
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:58,380
It's stupid in any way having a question to be interpreted. It's a technological thing.

489
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,000
And Andrew, you have to shut up. Okay. So the question, Betsy,

490
00:53:02,010 --> 00:53:08,020
is in terms of the various things that you just brought to us and which of those do you think have had the most impact on what and why?

491
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:20,610
Well, I think it's the place where I've had the most impact is the refuge for battered women, because that still exists in central Massachusetts.

492
00:53:20,610 --> 00:53:24,120
It's 28 years old as an agency.

493
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:30,569
It still gives service to women and children in central Massachusetts.

494
00:53:30,570 --> 00:53:34,140
So that's real. So that's a tangible.

495
00:53:34,710 --> 00:53:41,010
Yes, I think I may. So I go first to people's do I did I have I made people's lives better and I think

496
00:53:41,010 --> 00:53:46,800
probably that one is I would say there is evidence there to suggest it 28 years later,

497
00:53:47,040 --> 00:54:01,680
it's still in operation. Other places where I think I made some tangible benefits probably in terms of the discourse around violence against women,

498
00:54:03,660 --> 00:54:15,750
I think intimate intrusions, intrusions did change or challenge criminology in 1985, and that book did make an impact.

499
00:54:16,860 --> 00:54:20,669
And that wasn't the only person that were saying those things.

500
00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:24,480
But I think it did challenge traditional criminology in a way.

501
00:54:26,250 --> 00:54:33,600
This year, the 30th anniversary of the Women in Crime Division of the American Society of Criminology, and I was the founding mama of that.

502
00:54:34,170 --> 00:54:39,060
So that is another tangible benefit to women criminologists and others who do work on gender.

503
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:47,729
I've got legacies, lots of legacies. I think the confidence stuff that we've done with Ben and John has had an international

504
00:54:47,730 --> 00:54:52,410
impact in terms of the current discourse around legitimacy and procedural justice.

505
00:54:52,410 --> 00:55:02,700
So that one's a good one. And the rape stuff, which is just on the cusp of being published, is dynamite, and that is very good.

506
00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:10,020
So that's a legacy too. And I could probably name many others, but I think I've kind of left some legacies that I'm proud of.

507
00:55:12,060 --> 00:55:20,400
So the question is, I'll get it right. Did you have any tips on someone who is doing sexual advocacy work on on campus?

508
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:25,079
And what do you think the best tactics are for getting criminal justice agencies to change around these questions?

509
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:26,760
Yeah, I will answer this question,

510
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:34,410
but I also think the panellists probably also have quite a lot of experience around having to manage stubborn institutions.

511
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:45,540
I've done all of the above. I have been on totally unreasonable at times and then I have tried to be as reasonable as possible.

512
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:49,170
Sometimes I'm not very good at that,

513
00:55:50,010 --> 00:55:58,110
but I think what's tried my patience the most in the last ten and a half years in the Met has been the work around rape.

514
00:56:00,030 --> 00:56:10,410
And before that I also engaged my own university, my first university, with lots of thinking about how they were doing things so badly.

515
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,330
In terms of what the evidence says now, I think there's a lot of evidence.

516
00:56:15,330 --> 00:56:18,550
So what I do now is I go in with both.

517
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:22,680
This is what the research says is what the evidence says. It is insurmountable.

518
00:56:22,860 --> 00:56:28,830
This is the way this this is what it is. And your policy is over here and this is over here.

519
00:56:30,450 --> 00:56:35,609
And so I the way that I worked the Met was to be, I think,

520
00:56:35,610 --> 00:56:46,050
unduly patient and impatient at the same time, by continuously I rewrote the performance structure.

521
00:56:46,620 --> 00:56:50,930
So that enabled them to see that they were not performing very well in rape.

522
00:56:51,420 --> 00:56:53,640
They were still not performing very well.

523
00:56:54,710 --> 00:57:04,860
No one else is in the country, but we are now I think we have a consensus in government that there's a crisis in the treatment of rape allegations.

524
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,330
I can guarantee you that there is a consensus that the we're now in a crisis.

525
00:57:09,630 --> 00:57:13,709
I don't think that they they thought there was some fixes.

526
00:57:13,710 --> 00:57:20,100
But now we're actually I wanted to take it to the brink around crisis and basically saying

527
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:26,460
that I thought rape was decriminalised was a way of causing a bit of better people to think.

528
00:57:26,700 --> 00:57:33,090
A bit differently about what that was. And I can talk to you later about the evidence base, the evidence bases that, you know,

529
00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:40,920
that alcoholism and drug use is a main background for the reporting of rape.

530
00:57:42,270 --> 00:57:46,469
Youth is also a background for reporting of rape, domestic violence, mental health issues.

531
00:57:46,470 --> 00:57:54,780
These are all rife in terms of the kinds of allegations, and they need to think differently about the way they manage that.

532
00:57:54,780 --> 00:57:56,549
So I can talk to you specifically,

533
00:57:56,550 --> 00:58:02,970
but I'm sure all of the panellists have had to deal with institutions that don't want to hear what the evidence says.

534
00:58:03,420 --> 00:58:12,300
And it's those kinds of negotiations that are sometimes are done with patients and sometimes should be done without without patients.

535
00:58:12,570 --> 00:58:18,780
There were times when I would be on the other side of outside the home office with the megaphone during the time

536
00:58:18,780 --> 00:58:27,179
when we were on the streets around changing the law of homicide and provocation during the Credit Alabi case.

537
00:58:27,180 --> 00:58:31,380
And then I'd put on a hat and sneak upstairs in the halls of Justice,

538
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:36,120
sit in very quietly and listen to the case then and go back out here around where we were.

539
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:40,200
So that to me is the epitome of the way I've left. I've lived my life.

540
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:47,700
Basically, when I when I shouted, I wish I was shouting, but when I would sit as a chameleon in a place,

541
00:58:47,850 --> 00:58:57,209
I would also I have heard things in rooms and been in places at the highest level that I never thought I would ever be in.

542
00:58:57,210 --> 00:59:03,330
So all of that information really taught me about you challenged institutions

543
00:59:03,330 --> 00:59:09,270
in as many different ways as possible because they don't change spontaneously.

544
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:15,300
They're not a morphed organisation. They must be forced to change what they do.

545
00:59:17,170 --> 00:59:19,960
Does anyone else want to come in and question?

546
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:32,960
I think personally it's that ability to assess the situation and apply what tool you have to do to get your message across.

547
00:59:33,950 --> 00:59:37,850
And it can be. And also, try not to compromise your own values too much,

548
00:59:38,090 --> 00:59:45,680
because there are going to be times when actually what is more important, the outcome you want to achieve or your own value.

549
00:59:46,940 --> 00:59:51,200
And there is without doubt, whatever, whether you're going to policy,

550
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:55,340
whether you go into leadership, whether you're going to go, you have to compromise.

551
00:59:55,640 --> 01:00:01,790
I think the acknowledgement that actually some things don't happen overnight and in my less experience,

552
01:00:01,790 --> 01:00:08,960
I would say, yes, the realism that you will have to compromise that and it doesn't happen overnight.

553
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:15,840
Patience is, I think, the best. It just doesn't. So yeah, different types toolbox.

554
01:00:15,860 --> 01:00:20,630
You can still be another feminist in the sense that the choice is going to be yours.

555
01:00:21,170 --> 01:00:27,630
Where do you think you're going to get a better outcome? Just Yeah, I'd agree with all that.

556
01:00:27,890 --> 01:00:32,879
And as I mentioned about in Mosul, I mean, one of the things that I having worked mostly in the charity sector is,

557
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:37,380
as I said, you don't have you don't have powers, you don't have levers. It's not like working inside institutions where you can.

558
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:43,019
However difficult it is, you can totally. It's about persuasion. And then it comes down to what the most persuasive route is.

559
01:00:43,020 --> 01:00:49,739
And when I worked at the Fawcett Society, I think there's the problem right across the charity campaigning.

560
01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:51,690
Well, there's this debate about how you have the greatest input.

561
01:00:51,690 --> 01:00:56,459
So you better negotiating with a megaphone outside the building or you better sort of quietly working the corridors.

562
01:00:56,460 --> 01:00:58,680
And I think it is horses for courses.

563
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:06,149
But I think some of the things where I feel that some of the work I've done has had the most influence in terms of actually changing practical things,

564
01:01:06,150 --> 01:01:13,680
which is always less satisfying, but it's actually been the quieter, more conciliatory behind closed doors where you're willing to kind of go at them.

565
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:19,920
That's not always appropriate. It's not always the right way. And sometimes I think you've got to get outside and shout out and make a fuss just.

566
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:25,290
Just to get the sense that it's all. Yeah.

567
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,440
I mean, I would definitely agree on the multifaceted approach.

568
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:37,649
And in fact, that's kind of a reason why I do like obviously mainly practice law but also do a lot of campaigning around the edges as well.

569
01:01:37,650 --> 01:01:42,690
Because one of the great things about law is that you can kind of force a decision if something unlawful,

570
01:01:42,690 --> 01:01:47,940
then it's something that you can actually practically do about it, but also much of the time.

571
01:01:47,940 --> 01:01:53,759
So to taking an issue like stop and search, even if it is unlawful, you may just get a payout of damages.

572
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,600
You haven't actually changed any kind of behaviours and that's why the kind of campaigning

573
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:02,910
things is that type is a it's a lot more important and kind of wider scale as well.

574
01:02:03,940 --> 01:02:10,680
I mean the work that we do at stopwatch, we do try and kind of take every tactic available.

575
01:02:11,070 --> 01:02:20,490
So working with individual police forces, also maintaining independence so that we can we can ensure that we retain our integrity,

576
01:02:21,330 --> 01:02:28,080
have a position in the media and engage in research and also engage in litigation as well.

577
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,159
So get every option available to make your voice heard.

578
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:38,000
You take it. This is a related point.

579
01:02:38,010 --> 01:02:43,620
I mean, not so much about about internal.

580
01:02:43,620 --> 01:02:45,240
Well, it is about internal advocacy.

581
01:02:45,510 --> 01:02:53,700
It's also about ensuring that the work that the organisation is doing is reflecting the issues that you're seeing as important.

582
01:02:54,960 --> 01:03:04,920
And specifically, I'm thinking about things, issues like race or issues more generally where gender analysis is often missing.

583
01:03:06,330 --> 01:03:10,319
In fact, in the specific context of human rights work, it's very,

584
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:19,229
very common to see genderless human rights analysis or everybody in the report is male.

585
01:03:19,230 --> 01:03:23,490
Everybody, and all the abuses are described in a way that applies to men.

586
01:03:24,180 --> 01:03:32,610
And that that that that's you know, it's I think groups like Amnesty are becoming a lot better recognising that that has to do,

587
01:03:32,610 --> 01:03:38,700
in fact with the framing of the issue to start with and getting better at adapting to

588
01:03:38,700 --> 01:03:42,120
this and forcing ourselves to very consciously say we have to we have to do this.

589
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:52,860
So the example that I'm thinking of is a we were looking at a slum series of slums in Nairobi and we were looking at forced evictions.

590
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,890
People roll up with trucks and police often and say you get to leave.

591
01:03:59,430 --> 01:04:06,120
And so that was a very that was a very important set of issues. But we also were hearing a lot of other information while we were doing this.

592
01:04:06,170 --> 01:04:13,560
One of the one of the pieces of information we kept hearing from women was the amount of rape that was occurring in these communities.

593
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:19,049
And part of the reason is actually fairly simple to resolve,

594
01:04:19,050 --> 01:04:24,060
which is that there aren't enough public latrines available so that they're

595
01:04:24,060 --> 01:04:28,740
close enough to where people have to walk far away for for various reasons.

596
01:04:29,010 --> 01:04:35,700
Women are doing this at night when they're most at risk, walking long distances, and it's going to and from the latrines that this is occurring.

597
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:40,740
Now, I guess I'm somewhat hesitant to bring this up, because even though that's important,

598
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:48,299
it's a very it was a great moment for us to be able to document that and start to see some changes on that was critical.

599
01:04:48,300 --> 01:04:54,540
It responded to an articulated need. It's also not precisely everything we're trying to do,

600
01:04:54,540 --> 01:05:02,159
which is that it can't be that everything in the area of women's rights is about rape or about sexuality.

601
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:11,670
There has to be a lot more there. So, I mean, I think there's a lot of internal advocacy that can reinforce, particularly in a more holistic way.

602
01:05:11,940 --> 01:05:16,259
Whatever the message is, whatever the range of issues is, you know, you do have to start somewhere.

603
01:05:16,260 --> 01:05:19,590
But I think there is a ripple effect that happens over time as well.

604
01:05:22,910 --> 01:05:24,620
For the record. For the record.

605
01:05:25,380 --> 01:05:32,770
So the question, if you if people are coming out of graduate school nowadays, what's the best way they can get into the organisations?

606
01:05:32,780 --> 01:05:35,180
What's the roots? They tend to get your organisation to actually work.

607
01:05:36,350 --> 01:05:46,370
I was just going to advertise an internship that we are about to advertise that will be available in the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime.

608
01:05:46,850 --> 01:05:55,339
So if anybody is interested, you could come and talk to me. It's it's a really difficult market at the moment.

609
01:05:55,340 --> 01:06:01,760
But I think John's got some jobs giving away jobs as he.

610
01:06:02,810 --> 01:06:06,260
Yeah. I mean I think yeah we get where we are.

611
01:06:06,260 --> 01:06:10,040
But I think some of creating I think he's right. I was in my previous job, we were crazy.

612
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:14,080
I think it was, you know, we were flooded by applications. It's a very competitive market.

613
01:06:14,090 --> 01:06:19,250
I think the big change that I've seen in the time that I've been in the kind of work place is that when I left university,

614
01:06:19,580 --> 01:06:24,049
some people did internships, but a lot of people didn't or went straight into first jobs.

615
01:06:24,050 --> 01:06:32,330
And I mean, where I currently work, we offer paid internships as a routine for us, often for up to six months, but not very many of them.

616
01:06:32,330 --> 01:06:37,190
But when we apply for what would be seen as sort of entry level graduate jobs,

617
01:06:37,340 --> 01:06:44,120
most people have a number of pretty impressive internships on their CV, which does make them stand out.

618
01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:49,249
It's not it's not a requirement. But actually, when we're picking in a very competitive market, those people look good.

619
01:06:49,250 --> 01:06:53,840
And I've got no doubt that what I was offering when I started out wouldn't get me on to a shortlist.

620
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,159
Now, by comparison of the sort of applications we got from graduate students who've done volunteering,

621
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:03,229
who've done internships, who've done all sorts of unpaid things, and that may be hugely unfair.

622
01:07:03,230 --> 01:07:08,840
We try and level that out by offering one or more paid internships and making sure

623
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,569
that is available to people who haven't had the opportunities to do that before.

624
01:07:11,570 --> 01:07:19,100
But it's a very competitive market and I think it's getting harder and harder to make your CV stand out without some sort of relevant experience.

625
01:07:19,100 --> 01:07:25,520
And the only way to get that is it's doing internships, ideally paid for a lot of people to see them on paper.

626
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:31,510
I can see why. You know I one them and.

627
01:07:32,170 --> 01:07:36,010
Well, I suppose I need to make a pitch for social worker. Actually, that is a market that's available.

628
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,990
Because if, for example, you got your masters.

629
01:07:41,110 --> 01:07:49,000
But there is there are programs nationally that will sponsor you to get onto the course.

630
01:07:49,870 --> 01:07:56,920
So when I'm looking for a candidate and I'm looking at senior management level, I'm looking at people who can help influence policy.

631
01:07:56,930 --> 01:08:03,010
You can do have some of those conversations locally. So but you have to get your hands dirty.

632
01:08:03,220 --> 01:08:13,660
And that really means the front end abuse, abusive family, dodgy farm kids, the extended network that is emotionally tiresome.

633
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:17,290
So a purely academic background will only lead you so far.

634
01:08:17,830 --> 01:08:22,840
What? Particularly from my perspective, what needs to be an American?

635
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:24,300
What John saying is experience.

636
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:31,780
Whether you get and in the states, particularly as it's shrinking more and more, that combination of experience plus academic rigour is going to be.

637
01:08:32,020 --> 01:08:36,700
So there are as far as space is concerned and social in particular options where you could

638
01:08:36,700 --> 01:08:41,710
actually get paid to do your course and you can get your hands dirty and I mean quite.

639
01:08:42,190 --> 01:08:47,379
And that then can actually test out some of the theoretical underpinning of this work in practice.

640
01:08:47,380 --> 01:08:52,670
And it's all very isolated. But the higher up the food chain you can get, the more you can actually see.

641
01:08:52,690 --> 01:08:58,899
What is this research? Tennis and we can influence. So now, as I tell my sister that if I was going to be a graduate,

642
01:08:58,900 --> 01:09:10,450
I would be looking at some of the classic professions and teaching social work because criminal justice, social work, I don't know that lawyers say.

643
01:09:10,790 --> 01:09:15,790
So, yes, I felt to be a solicitor, obviously kind of technical things that you need to do.

644
01:09:15,790 --> 01:09:22,390
So you would need to do the LPC, which is possibly the most boring of anyone's life.

645
01:09:23,470 --> 01:09:31,540
And then you do a training contract for two years where you are practising as a solicitor, but you are always supervised.

646
01:09:33,100 --> 01:09:37,360
It's a very difficult market at the moment, particularly in my area of law.

647
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:46,569
Almost all of my clients are funded by Legal Aid, and I don't know if you will have seen anything about Legal Aid, but it's been decimated.

648
01:09:46,570 --> 01:09:49,300
I can't speak about it too much, so it will make me very angry.

649
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:56,850
So it's a very difficult market at the moment, but it's also, you know, a fantastic career.

650
01:09:56,860 --> 01:10:04,120
I love what I do in terms of making yourself stand out, things like internships and voluntary experience.

651
01:10:04,750 --> 01:10:08,709
It's always going to look good and it is difficult.

652
01:10:08,710 --> 01:10:15,350
But also, I mean, your role here, you're clearly very, very capable.

653
01:10:15,370 --> 01:10:18,279
So I think, you know, if you've invested so much in your future,

654
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:24,010
then you should definitely pursue it to the end that you want to achieve, irrespective of how challenging things might seem.

655
01:10:28,330 --> 01:10:31,780
Human rights is obviously a small field, so it's difficult to do,

656
01:10:31,780 --> 01:10:36,420
although I think the good news is that it's gotten a lot bigger in the last 20 years or so.

657
01:10:36,430 --> 01:10:46,540
So I think that it would be unlikely for somebody to start out at a place like Amnesty with quite, quite the size of it.

658
01:10:47,470 --> 01:10:53,650
In my own department, we're looking at people who have already done human rights work and have done the kind of human

659
01:10:53,650 --> 01:11:00,460
rights research that I was that I was mentioning earlier to be a human rights researcher.

660
01:11:00,700 --> 01:11:05,590
People are looking to the kinds of things that we're looking for are not that different.

661
01:11:05,860 --> 01:11:12,340
They haven't changed very much. It's extremely strong writing, extremely strong research skills, really good interpersonal skills.

662
01:11:14,580 --> 01:11:20,280
Numerous languages, probably more than point two or three relevant languages, I guess.

663
01:11:22,410 --> 01:11:30,360
And then the kind of the kind of formal training that is, is generally useful at law tends to be very useful.

664
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:33,600
Journalism is very useful for specific areas.

665
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:40,530
Studies are useful for the for the kind of for the kind of analysis of of of regional and country contexts.

666
01:11:41,430 --> 01:11:52,650
So I think the key, though, is to try to use use opportunities during the formal sort of university as a formal.

667
01:11:53,870 --> 01:12:01,429
Graduate training process just to get relevant experience and then to seek out employment.

668
01:12:01,430 --> 01:12:04,490
And you know. You know. You know.

669
01:12:05,990 --> 01:12:12,050
With an organisation that does human rights related work, maybe not an international one,

670
01:12:12,380 --> 01:12:16,280
but doing doing this work, solving a national context is really, really helpful.

671
01:12:16,290 --> 01:12:22,990
Then to get to a place like Amnesty International in some states, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a sequence northern.

672
01:12:25,210 --> 01:12:29,390
Then you wait. Okay. We'll take one final question. Okay.

673
01:12:29,420 --> 01:12:36,800
There was a patient is that Amnesty's reach is sometimes that is most limited in observation of the possible where is most needed.

674
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:42,520
My spin on that and the question is for what the organisation do about that.

675
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,809
And part of the question implies that litigation might be a way of generating change.

676
01:12:46,810 --> 01:12:54,040
I think litigation is a very piecemeal, expensive, limited way of of generating change.

677
01:12:54,040 --> 01:13:01,059
I think there are a lot there are lots better ways of generating. I'm a lawyer by saying this contrary to maybe to my own interests now.

678
01:13:01,060 --> 01:13:06,280
I mean, I think we have to look to all the all the levers of, you know,

679
01:13:06,340 --> 01:13:16,329
working with with national and working at the national level and working to the extent that international levers are useful using those as well.

680
01:13:16,330 --> 01:13:20,530
So things like the the various U.N. mechanisms,

681
01:13:20,530 --> 01:13:26,590
the Human Rights Council reviews the human rights record of every country on a rotating basis that are every three or four years.

682
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,250
Those are moments that are not enforceable legally.

683
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:36,370
They do generate recommendations that generate a certain amount of criticism among the different countries.

684
01:13:36,370 --> 01:13:41,020
But of course, it's a political process because this is a political body that's doing it.

685
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:48,700
So but these are moments to try to place some pressure on on on on states.

686
01:13:48,940 --> 01:13:55,149
Some states don't care about these things. The one state that often doesn't care about international pressure is, in fact,

687
01:13:55,150 --> 01:13:58,450
not of this, these regions you mentioned, but is the United States right?

688
01:13:58,450 --> 01:14:02,350
So we have to use we have to think about different techniques for different countries.

689
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:12,760
Even if these obvious, large, formal institutions don't don't really work.

690
01:14:13,180 --> 01:14:18,840
We can also think about smaller regional bodies that do exist in places,

691
01:14:18,930 --> 01:14:24,670
in places like like Asia, like different parts of Africa that you've mentioned.

692
01:14:25,060 --> 01:14:32,830
And it's often more effective to get with what feels to countries like a peer to peer pressure rather than a

693
01:14:32,830 --> 01:14:39,830
dynamic where they will often say may indeed often feel that they're being lectured to by Western Europe,

694
01:14:39,830 --> 01:14:43,639
the North. So then finally,

695
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:50,270
I think the the there's a critical component of mass mobilisation which which

696
01:14:50,270 --> 01:14:55,070
amnesty does slightly better than other large human rights groups does to do.

697
01:14:55,430 --> 01:15:03,170
But but but but but other other other kinds of organising do you know, to do even better at.

698
01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:08,329
So this is the idea of sort of like generating popular outrage or making it so that it becomes

699
01:15:08,330 --> 01:15:14,120
impossible to ignore demands for change because because the people themselves are asking for it.

700
01:15:15,990 --> 01:15:20,010
Thank you. With that, that's I find that fascinating.

701
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:24,870
It's a fascinating mix of biography, evidence and insight. I mean, just wasting your time.

702
01:15:26,550 --> 01:15:29,970
We have 40 minutes in which we can continue this discussion.

703
01:15:30,270 --> 01:15:33,440
Over to you, Kate. Next door for the lecture starts.

704
01:15:34,770 --> 01:15:42,510
Before we do so, I just remind all the speakers, just reminding us that the lines between research, law, policy and action are extremely blurred.

705
01:15:43,060 --> 01:15:44,760
The good thing that they all think you.