1 00:00:00,660 --> 00:00:08,280 Look at that. That's impressive. It was quiet. Welcome to the first of this very exciting series of our 50th anniversary lectures. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,660 Well, you will see in front of you a pile of these beautiful cars. 3 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:18,599 Yeah. Okay, so there's three different cards in case you put to the thinking. 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,170 You've already got one. One is about all the events we have during the year. 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:28,020 One is about the big conference we're going to hold in June, on June the fourth, 6 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:33,510 which is called Contemporary Dilemmas in Criminal Justice, and one is about her 50th anniversary lectures. 7 00:00:34,140 --> 00:00:40,260 So commit these to your memory, your iPhones, your calendars, to them all, 8 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:44,940 because we expect and hope to see you with all of these events, by least most of them. 9 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,850 So what we do for the anniversary lectures is that as a service, 10 00:00:50,850 --> 00:00:55,420 people within the universities in the centre criminology are going to host these seminars. 11 00:00:55,860 --> 00:01:04,440 And the first host for the first of the anniversary lectures is Professor Roger Hurt, who is no stranger to all of those no stranger to criminology, 12 00:01:04,650 --> 00:01:10,200 having run the place very successfully for decades and having been in all cells for how many years? 13 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,349 For years? Well, 31. 14 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:17,910 I was a fellow and knows another 15, I think virtually forever. 15 00:01:19,470 --> 00:01:24,690 So you think of hosting seminars in general and certainly industry. 16 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:33,300 I think going to host the seminar tonight, which is a wonderful event for us and the first 50th anniversary lectures. 17 00:01:34,050 --> 00:01:39,600 So I'm going to pass over to him, say a little bit about the series or at least about the purpose of the series. 18 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:53,790 And then he's going to she's asking us to. When I penned the last report as director of the centre in 2003, I think the first one says something. 19 00:01:54,480 --> 00:02:02,280 Criminology in Oxford is already over 50 years old, so you might wonder why we've got 1966. 20 00:02:02,670 --> 00:02:08,850 It's 50 years old. Now, of course, as you know, in causation, it's very difficult to decide what starts something. 21 00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:13,979 But I would like to say that this college really played a very, 22 00:02:13,980 --> 00:02:21,780 very important part in the establishment of criminology in Oxford, because in January of 1939, 23 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:28,230 on the cusp of the Second World War, a German refugee scholar, Dr. Max Graham, 24 00:02:28,290 --> 00:02:36,930 had been removed from his post under the Aryan Laws of the Nazis in 1933, came here to All Souls. 25 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:41,610 He had tried to come to England for five or six years, 26 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:52,950 but the main criminology post had been held by another famous refugee from the Nazis, Dr. Hermann Mannheim. 27 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,350 And our guest this evening from the Mannheim Centre of the London School of Economics. 28 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:10,590 We have close connections because I was Mannheim Research assistant in 1957, and it started me out really on my career in criminology. 29 00:03:12,090 --> 00:03:19,620 Max Graham, after the war, was the first person to be appointed as lecturer in criminology in this university, 30 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:27,750 actually preceding posts other than at the LHC established posts in criminology anywhere in the country. 31 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:37,110 In 1950, he was made leader. Now you have to understand that the post of Rita meant something different in the 1950s. 32 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:44,760 It was a kind of mini professor in a subject which was new, small, and didn't have a large department. 33 00:03:45,390 --> 00:03:54,330 But it was a very distinguished post, the read from criminology at Oxford, and he was there for ten years until he retired. 34 00:03:55,050 --> 00:04:03,810 And then in 1961, the Dr. Nigel Walker was appointed and after a period of five years working his way into criminology, 35 00:04:03,810 --> 00:04:14,070 he'd been a civil servant in the Scottish office. He decided that Oxford needed a permanent place for research in criminology. 36 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:21,450 Max Graham had started in a very small way and indeed was one of the first scholars to get any research money 37 00:04:21,450 --> 00:04:28,470 from the Home Office after the 1948 Criminal Justice Act had made funds available for criminological research. 38 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:37,980 So Oxford had started off in this field. Nigel Walker decided to also Nuffield Foundation of the Home Office for a rolling grant, 39 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,060 which would enable the establishment of a penal research unit. 40 00:04:42,930 --> 00:04:45,480 I think at the time it was three researchers. 41 00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:56,730 How it's grown absolutely remarkably, and especially I would very happy to say, since I departed in 2003, 42 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:05,280 it's much, much bigger and more students other things, because then the university has not been committed to it. 43 00:05:06,330 --> 00:05:15,630 So it's a very important period since 1966 to look at where criminology stood and what's been achieved 44 00:05:16,230 --> 00:05:23,070 and in part everywhere within this country and elsewhere on how criminology is developed and also, 45 00:05:23,070 --> 00:05:24,840 of course, here within Oxford. 46 00:05:25,510 --> 00:05:35,310 And we couldn't have anybody better to lead us off than my very old friends, David Downes, Paul Rock from the LSC and Tim Newbold. 47 00:05:36,330 --> 00:05:42,510 I first met David in 1961 when I went as a research officer to the NSC, 48 00:05:42,510 --> 00:05:52,530 and David was doing a magnificent piece of research in the East End of London, published in 1966, as doing what was called delinquency. 49 00:05:53,490 --> 00:05:56,400 The delinquent solution. The delinquent solution. 50 00:05:57,790 --> 00:06:08,910 Paul met we decided now about 1967 when we said no, but it was about that time and I met him about 1989. 51 00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:13,920 I love him in the in the in the Home Office before. 52 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:21,540 No. The reason why this is very appropriate is that they've been entrusted with writing 53 00:06:21,540 --> 00:06:26,970 an official history of the development of criminal justice in England and Wales. 54 00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:34,440 Is that right? England was from 1959 until 1997. 55 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:42,750 It's been a big task because I remember you coming and talking about it several years ago and somebody has done some of that long term history. 56 00:06:43,110 --> 00:06:46,360 It's very difficult to do any of it and finish it within ten years. 57 00:06:46,370 --> 00:06:52,800 So you're doing you're doing fine. So they're going to talk today on the subject in the beginning, 58 00:06:53,160 --> 00:07:04,110 and I understand this is really to give us an idea of a prospective idea of what criminology was doing in 1966, 59 00:07:04,950 --> 00:07:13,740 what the state of criminal justice and penal systems were, and what the major issues were that confronted the government and US scholars. 60 00:07:14,220 --> 00:07:19,620 So I welcome the I think O'Rourke is going to speak, first of all, as I should have said, 61 00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:27,150 been writing a great deal about penal policy, particularly about the role of victims of crime. 62 00:07:27,660 --> 00:07:29,670 And his work is really outstanding. 63 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:37,830 And I should have mentioned Tim, of course, who hardly needs mentioning, because when I look through his list of publications, 64 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,790 it seems to me that he publishes eight books or articles or something else, 65 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:49,470 some reports or newspaper pieces or appears on the television every year for the last 15 years. 66 00:07:50,010 --> 00:07:57,060 He is really fantastically productive across a wide range of fields, so we're very pleased to have such distinguished speakers. 67 00:07:57,390 --> 00:08:01,740 I've spoken to long, but I'm very, very pleased that they're here. Thank you very much. 68 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:04,850 I wasn't intending to say this machine is very apt. 69 00:08:04,860 --> 00:08:14,549 Aside from Wolverhampton on the facade of criminology in the lift with people from the conference and Porteous from the university, 70 00:08:14,550 --> 00:08:23,730 but lifting large boxes around, I said two of my fellow conference members, at least criminology doesn't involve heavy lifting. 71 00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:28,050 And somebody said from the back, not necessary about two new bones textbooks. 72 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:42,030 Let's assume that, as Roger said, we were commissioned to write the history of criminal justice between 59 and 97, 73 00:08:42,450 --> 00:08:47,250 and it seemed appropriate to review the state of affairs right at the beginning, 74 00:08:48,210 --> 00:08:52,170 when our history began, when this centre was founded, 75 00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:58,920 and I assume the Council of Criminology was one of the very few students studying criminology at this institution. 76 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:07,860 There were just three of us, three graduate students, one of whom began remarkably successful, 77 00:09:07,860 --> 00:09:10,790 Kit Carson, who became, I think, vice chancellor, University of Adelaide. 78 00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:22,290 What follows is an abbreviated version of part of that tour from Horizon and our trying to convey 79 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:26,520 something of the intellectual environment in which the new central of criminology was placed. 80 00:09:27,450 --> 00:09:35,160 No doubt much of what I have to say will be familiar enough to quite a few, and certainly to Roger, who knows more about it, I think, than I do. 81 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,959 But and we we do forget the past. 82 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:45,630 We will forge it. And it may be worthwhile repeating what in part was common knowledge. 83 00:09:46,970 --> 00:09:54,410 I want to remind ourselves not only of a palpable sense of anxiety and bafflement, a kind of spot in the mid 1960s, 84 00:09:54,770 --> 00:10:02,150 but also the apprehension that the new discipline of criminology lacked the capacity to do much to understand what was happening. 85 00:10:03,230 --> 00:10:12,040 Recorded crime. And this is where I put my spark that rose continually until almost the end of the 20th century. 86 00:10:12,050 --> 00:10:15,950 And it rose steeply. And it rose for reasons that were obscure. 87 00:10:16,430 --> 00:10:25,700 Rose Absolutely. Rose disproportionately when set against population growth, although they might now appear. 88 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,050 Although they might not appear modest enough. 89 00:10:32,350 --> 00:10:41,890 Official crime rates were almost invariably regarded by people writing in the 1960s as new, disturbingly large, extraordinarily rapid in their growth, 90 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:49,540 largely inexplicable and indicative of a major and somehow perverse transformation of the societies in the world. 91 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:56,860 They increase offended common sense arguments about what should have been the proper links between national prosperity, 92 00:10:56,860 --> 00:11:02,620 education, employment and criminality. Cultural declined, not grown. 93 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:11,139 After the Second World War, if I may be so given to alluding to him here and on this occasion, Leon Retsinas, 94 00:11:11,140 --> 00:11:21,219 which was the Wolfson professor of criminology at the University of Cambridge and perhaps the foremost criminologist of his day remarked in 1965, 95 00:11:21,220 --> 00:11:23,590 I'm not going to feel the slow going haywire. 96 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:39,150 I put these things on slides rather than leave them out for want of time and because it's tedious to to to have things recited. 97 00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:49,680 But there he was expressing his astonishment at the fact that crime should have gone up when all other indices would have promoted a decline in crime. 98 00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:55,560 It went down and like and like famed the very influential Lord Pakenham, 99 00:11:55,560 --> 00:12:02,010 the late of the of Longford, who became a member of the Cabinet under Harold Wilson, 100 00:12:03,540 --> 00:12:11,609 remarked that an article in the Times what prompted him to form the impression that 101 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:18,120 everything that militated in favour of the decline had operated the opposite way. 102 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:27,420 Changes in the figures appeared even more dramatic and threatening when it was, as was often the case and still is the case, 103 00:12:27,630 --> 00:12:33,450 what looked like quite humble numerical increases were represented as percentages. 104 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,180 In 1969, for instance, 105 00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:48,209 the Secretary of State for the Home Department in the State of Scotland reported in a memorandum that crime was shooting up in percentage terms, 106 00:12:48,210 --> 00:12:56,100 even though on inspection it's quite clear that the the absolute numbers were fairly punitive by a puny by modern standards, 107 00:12:56,970 --> 00:13:00,540 and it seemed impossible as a result to disparage what was in train. 108 00:13:00,930 --> 00:13:09,120 The former colleague of Roger McClintock opened the 1963 study of crimes of violence in London with 109 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:18,870 the observation that so there is major concern about the incidence of violence in the capital. 110 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,570 Criminality was thought to be mushrooming, especially amongst the young. 111 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:34,890 A third of all people found guilty of indictable offence, as each were under the age of 17 and a half, under the age of 21 in the early sixties. 112 00:13:35,310 --> 00:13:41,459 And it seemed that there was something particularly awry with those who be born in and around the wartime years, 113 00:13:41,460 --> 00:13:45,120 the so-called affluent teenagers, not affluent by today's standards. 114 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:50,640 But it was a common enough expression who should have had no pretext to offend. 115 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,450 They were members of what were called the delinquent generations, 116 00:13:54,450 --> 00:14:03,360 personified by the Teddy Boys and other young hooligans whose upright upbringing had gone amiss in 1965. 117 00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:13,050 A Conservative Party report report made the observation that the. 118 00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:26,060 Sorry. Yeah. I made the observation that this was a problem of major importance. 119 00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:31,820 There wasn't sure what Dave Garland was slated to call a new experience of crime. 120 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,730 It was during this period, the popular political and expert responses began to change. 121 00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:45,020 There was more property to steal. Crime was growing in volume even faster than the increase in the number of suitable targets, 122 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,530 and it was being spread by an increasingly mobile population. 123 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,290 It could move about by car to victimise previously exempt households that for demographic 124 00:14:54,290 --> 00:14:59,750 and economic reasons of divorce and work patterns were less and less securely protected. 125 00:15:01,310 --> 00:15:07,160 Whatever stance they might privately wish to take and whatever policies they may have sought to promote. 126 00:15:08,630 --> 00:15:15,200 Ministers and home secretaries in particular of both parties were constrained throughout the period to convey publicly 127 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:21,680 that they were aware that crime is mounting dangerously and that they were attempting tirelessly to confront it. 128 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:33,290 RJ Butler, who on closer inspection turns out to be less heroic and I think some people have assumed a rather timid attempt to deal 129 00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:39,680 with difficult issues was assailed with unremitting complaints about the crime wave from within the Conservative Party, 130 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:46,130 and above all, with almost unanimous protest from party associations about the dilution of punishments, 131 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,870 the abolition of corporal punishment, and plans to abolish capital punishment. 132 00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:56,630 Lord Wilson, who became principal of prisoners next door, 133 00:15:57,020 --> 00:16:02,509 recollected how R.A. Butler talked about the bloodcurdling demands made annually 134 00:16:02,510 --> 00:16:06,530 at the Conservative Party conference for the restoration of corporal punishment, 135 00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:10,130 which had quite clouded his time as chairman of the party. 136 00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:17,150 And Butler himself talked about how how he had had to take an awful lot of opposition, 137 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:23,870 including calls of virtue and flogging, which haunted me almost every every week by the Home Office. 138 00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:29,959 There was a brief but abortive campaign by the anti-violence league to stir 139 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,500 up a populist revolt about what was depicted as a craven response to crisis. 140 00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:44,360 And in January 1960, he wrote to the deputy chairman of the party and the former conduit for those protests and recriminations. 141 00:16:47,850 --> 00:16:51,730 Oh, I'm so sorry I got muddled up. Yeah, that's it. 142 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,130 The government is concerned about crime. He could not say otherwise. 143 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:06,410 The word public currency, or at least two dominant kinds of explanation to make sense of a manage what was afoot. 144 00:17:06,830 --> 00:17:13,130 Both reflected the ethical, political, occupational and religious preoccupations of the observer. 145 00:17:14,990 --> 00:17:19,490 Gillian Tett may have said that the modern world is littered with pockets of specialist knowledge, 146 00:17:19,490 --> 00:17:23,060 where technical experts work in mental and structural silos. 147 00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:31,490 But her observation does not apply to crime. Alexander Patterson, the great prison commissioner, said Everyone is interested in the criminal. 148 00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:36,890 Everyone has views on the subject of crime. Crime impinges on all of us. 149 00:17:37,340 --> 00:17:43,459 An official who joined the Home Office at the time in the early sixties told me an end to the face of 150 00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:48,980 the Home Secretary rather than the Transport Secretary is that everybody knows what the solution is. 151 00:17:48,980 --> 00:17:58,280 Everybody is his own home secretary. One explanation, which was more political and lay than scholarly, was the blend of common sense, 152 00:17:58,430 --> 00:18:04,940 moralistic theorising and popular psychology that distilled a number of anxieties about the condition of England. 153 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,850 There was a collapse of discipline, especially in the home. 154 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:15,799 Mistakes in upbringing, the erosion, stable domestic life and the socialisation of the young that had been precipitated, 155 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,980 particularly by the dislocation of the Second World War, 156 00:18:19,490 --> 00:18:24,410 a growing involvement of women in the workforce, and the breakdown of the Convention on the Family. 157 00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:29,330 It was taken for granted that crime was, in the main, a breach of moral rules. 158 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,700 Those roots lay in moral failings and whose explanation must be pitched in moral terms. 159 00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:38,630 It could take the form one pole of the proclamation, 160 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:49,510 a simple imperatives and the other of long omnibus and somewhat vague lists that test the principle that light causes, like the bad effects, 161 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:56,000 must have bad causes and points to the consequences of a decline in deference defective socialisation, 162 00:18:56,450 --> 00:19:01,760 defective adherence to religious ethical instruction, defective school discipline, 163 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:07,670 defective informal and formal social control defects in the content. 164 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:16,650 The ever more consequential and ubiquitous mass media horror comics rupture of rock and roll and much of American culture. 165 00:19:16,850 --> 00:19:24,650 In general and the emphasis on the workings of inform a successful Pro-level course, telling an important truth. 166 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:33,229 And all of you will know that only a very minor proportion of crimes known certainly to victims or even recorded by the police, 167 00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:41,060 actually reach the court and are punished. And that informal search patrols in one way or another are far more consequential. 168 00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:46,850 The other, exponentially more involved in the university, correctional institution and clinic, 169 00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:54,740 was also mapped to multifactorial potpourri that was perhaps not so very different from its vernacular counterpart. 170 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,230 The academic study of crime was then, and David says, I quote him to excess on this point. 171 00:20:00,650 --> 00:20:05,959 What David Darwin would have called a rendezvous excellence enterprise eclectic, multi-disciplinary, 172 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:12,560 polycentric and more heavily disposed to the empirical and the theoretical, the concrete, the abstract. 173 00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:18,469 Look at the very first editorial in the British Job Delinquency. 174 00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:22,940 Later The British Journal of Criminology. Now I've got it right. 175 00:20:23,030 --> 00:20:34,580 It should come up that it will come to it will contain a great mass, a heterogenous mass of contributions from across different sciences. 176 00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:40,219 Crime, it was said repeatedly, could not be attributed to a single cause, 177 00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:47,750 but to a multitude of antecedent conditions that include the psychic, the psychological, the academic circumstances of the offender. 178 00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:59,680 Each condition played its part, and the explanation of crime was so complex of how Jones, the author of an old textbook to some criminologists, 179 00:20:59,690 --> 00:21:05,990 been that to abandon the quest of systematic theories and to lay emphasis instead upon calls were factors. 180 00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:13,910 That was the theme of comparative criminology, written by Hermann Mannheim, who Roger has already mentioned. 181 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:25,440 And here, Nigel Walker had a long list of almost every possible kind of explanation in his encyclopaedia acts. 182 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,729 It's hard to predict. Textbook Crime Punishment in Britain. 183 00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:34,520 Published notes of five authors during that time were pioneers knew that they were. 184 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:45,230 So Nigel Walker talked about his textbook as being innovative because there wasn't one who said my notes were better when turned into textbook. 185 00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:48,650 There wasn't one, and he certainly didn't write with confidence. 186 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:55,670 Howard Jones said some may feel that claims of criminology to the call to science is very much in question. 187 00:21:56,030 --> 00:22:00,649 It's methods like those of other social sciences are often highly subjective and 188 00:22:00,650 --> 00:22:05,840 it's been able to establish so far no scientific laws that can general utility. 189 00:22:06,380 --> 00:22:14,090 They were members of marginal utility and knew them to be so and they weren't wholly convinced of what they were doing. 190 00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:26,480 Lord Longford recalled when he talked to Barbara Wootton, who I think is an unjustly neglected criminologist of great importance. 191 00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:33,170 He said when Mrs. Wootton was asked what help the criminologist could give to the Home Secretary today about the causes of crime, 192 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,299 she replied Not very much. The substance of form, 193 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:47,360 the criminology in the late 1950s and sixties flowed in some significant parts from those for whom crime was a practical preoccupation with doctors, 194 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:53,780 policy officials, psychiatrists, prison governors and others who cheated, measured and managed the criminal. 195 00:22:54,350 --> 00:23:01,280 There were few others around to develop the craft. I overheard Roger say of criminology at the time. 196 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:07,940 There just were very few of us that they were professionally positioned at close quarters to their subject. 197 00:23:08,930 --> 00:23:14,270 And it was they who, as a matter of course, supplied many of the data which we were to become the materials, 198 00:23:15,050 --> 00:23:23,870 the catalysts, the contacts and products of analysis. Criminology was infused deeply in psychiatry, psychology and psychoanalysis. 199 00:23:24,170 --> 00:23:30,350 It was instrumental because it had to be useful to reform and rehabilitation and correction. 200 00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:37,240 It was intended to make criminal justice and penal institutions effective it deviant material. 201 00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:48,750 It was heavily quantitative. It was given to the construction of typologies, and it was enormously productive of the list. 202 00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:53,870 If I could find one. There we are. 203 00:23:55,010 --> 00:24:03,500 Talks all about ambitious, psychosocial, logical, psycho social courses and the most recondite statistical particularity. 204 00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:17,960 Those test schedules and questionnaires epitomise how many people of influence thought research should proceed? 205 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:28,969 One very influential figure was Tom Lodge, who was an actuary and actuarial statistician who was installed in the Home Office and first as a 206 00:24:28,970 --> 00:24:35,720 statistical advisor and co-founder of the first and first director of the new Home Office Research Unit. 207 00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:46,970 And what he said was, this is how the aims of criminology should criminological research should be envisaged. 208 00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:53,200 This list it doesn't Durata McNally stemmed from with in government but it I think 209 00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:58,340 captured a great deal of what was a what criminologist a lot would have said. 210 00:25:00,290 --> 00:25:05,960 Nonetheless, despite all this, criminologists were very nervous about their fledgling science. 211 00:25:06,530 --> 00:25:13,370 Home Office officials were certainly unimpressed by the volume of culture and quantity of criminology practised in the universities at the time. 212 00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:20,570 Sir Charles Cunningham, the permanent secretary, reminded Henry Brooke, the Home Secretary. 213 00:25:22,330 --> 00:25:31,549 They had been getting up, but he was not at all impressed by what he had found when he told the country, 214 00:25:31,550 --> 00:25:34,820 as it were, looking at what criminology was being done. 215 00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:46,330 I devote some space in the official history to the evolution of the proposals to remedy that situation. 216 00:25:46,330 --> 00:25:52,480 First, by establishing the Home Office Research Unit and almost simultaneously the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge. 217 00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:57,370 In 1957, the head of the unit, Tom Lodge, said. 218 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:11,469 And this is really quite a large quote, forgive me, but it was to look at it was to remedy the deficiencies of the universities. 219 00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:18,370 But there were limitations. Nothing was happening in the universities, and the Home Office had to rely upon itself. 220 00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:26,530 What was happening was regarded as an impressive exercise. 221 00:26:26,890 --> 00:26:36,340 What happened was that the Home Secretary told the House of Commons at the time that some useful work has been done. 222 00:26:36,340 --> 00:26:43,990 But nonetheless what we must do is spend our own money in order to establish a research program. 223 00:26:44,590 --> 00:26:52,150 I want and I'm conscious of the shortness of time, but that was the pretext for the Home Office Research Unit, 224 00:26:52,450 --> 00:27:01,960 which for quite a considerable period, I think, and very badly treated by academic criminologists, 225 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:09,580 produced a really quite monumental programme of work, very well funded with a large quantity of staff, 226 00:27:09,580 --> 00:27:17,380 and I think too little appreciated by the academic criminologist at the time, the unit group. 227 00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:26,080 And it grew in a benign climate and it was quite clearly utilitarian. 228 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,910 The other principal innovation, the new Institute of Criminology, 229 00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:37,090 was to be established in Cambridge outside the Home Office, and it was the twin of the new research unit. 230 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:44,350 Tom Lodge remarked that one should not ignore the close links between the Institute and the research unit and the common origin and the 231 00:27:44,350 --> 00:27:50,530 forces that for many years had been building up to make inevitable the development in Great Britain of scientific criminological research. 232 00:27:52,780 --> 00:28:02,020 I do not propose, for reasons of time, to go into the reasons, the origins of that, but nonetheless see if I can get it up. 233 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:21,270 It was thought that it would be a good idea to have a companion institution which would do very much the same sort of work, 234 00:28:21,330 --> 00:28:26,220 but free of direct government government influence. 235 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:35,969 They've had a tax bill that involves Rabinovitch talked about systematically plan research to 236 00:28:35,970 --> 00:28:42,000 build up a body of objective information and the solution of more fundamental mental issues. 237 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:50,840 It may be seen in Garland's phrase, the criminology in England and Wales began life as institutionally based, 238 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:56,600 administratively or into discipline, and that orientation had been reinforced in the new organisation. 239 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,370 Create new organisations that had been created to take it forward. 240 00:29:01,670 --> 00:29:07,040 Organisations that are in another niche, their nature sparks would like to say what people associate. 241 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:13,430 Members of loosely affiliated liberal elites remained in that vein for some substantial time. 242 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:20,810 But it also starts in the 1960s to betray the impact of the importation of a better established, 243 00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:24,320 more robust, vigorous and avowedly American criminology. 244 00:29:24,770 --> 00:29:28,070 There were the first terms of what were called labelling theory, 245 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:35,630 the doctrine that informal and formal social control also makes its mark in constructing criminal and deviant behaviour. 246 00:29:36,110 --> 00:29:45,319 There were the beginnings of talk about anomie and some insight that my left back there downs in previous delinquent solution relative deprivation, 247 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:53,030 culture and subculture and the impact of rising expectations in a society marked by structured social and economic inequalities. 248 00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:00,800 For some enemies, Syria promised to resolve the seeming paradox posed by the presence of useful crime in the midst of plenty. 249 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,630 By arguing that conditions of rapid social change and apparent prosperity, 250 00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:11,690 when controls were weakened at all, was motivated to achievement awards in an unequal world. 251 00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:16,430 The young and relatively deprived might experience frustration. 252 00:30:17,030 --> 00:30:20,510 And Barbara Wootton put this very well. 253 00:30:22,790 --> 00:30:32,869 It was, she thought, the solution to the apparent conundrum which rights in which and long sought her talked about there was 254 00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:39,179 to be an emerging schism within the coalition of practical and academic criminologists for a period. 255 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:46,909 And whilst a number of academic criminologists have been small, the two wings have had to collaborate together sometimes on these meetings, 256 00:30:46,910 --> 00:30:53,810 seminars, editorial boards and conferences that they started to grow apart towards the latter half of the 1960s. 257 00:30:54,260 --> 00:31:02,000 As a new and distinct sociology of crime, deviance began to emerge partly under the spell of its American system discipline, 258 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:09,600 partly under the impact of the new radicalism on the streets and its resuscitation of what Taylor Young called the 259 00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:16,720 addition of grand sociology and partly in response to the growth of a critical mass of boisterous young Turks. 260 00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:24,830 That was us once upon a time, which coalesced as universities expanded and junior staff were appointed en masse. 261 00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:30,830 The schism was underscored by Clare, the chairman of the Howard League, 262 00:31:31,910 --> 00:31:40,959 set up the first British Congress of crime in 1966 and he reported that he was disappointed at the outcome of his attempt to bring them together. 263 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,960 The minutes of the meeting of the Howard League's executive committee recorded 264 00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:52,730 that how incomprehensible a lot of what was being talked appeared to its members. 265 00:31:53,690 --> 00:31:54,739 Two years later, 266 00:31:54,740 --> 00:32:02,390 there was even more consequential fissure within the body of criminology at the third national conference organised by the University of Cambridge. 267 00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:09,139 A group of renegades discovered that they had become numerous and comfortable enough to decamp to found a new, 268 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:12,710 an independent National Defence Symposium at the University of York. 269 00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:20,060 In conscious opposition to Cambridge national campuses, they affected what David Towns called a deliberate break, 270 00:32:20,060 --> 00:32:26,000 with what was seen as this grand stranglehold on the subject by the Orthodox criminology of the south east. 271 00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:37,460 But scepticism was more endemic still. It spread beyond just mattocks, those whom the castigated to devote the entire body of criminology. 272 00:32:37,940 --> 00:32:42,110 It was not as if any significant portion of the world of academics, practitioners, 273 00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:48,379 policymakers and politicians took what Wootton called the factual and quantitative basis 274 00:32:48,380 --> 00:32:53,810 of generalisations about human affairs to be secure within government and the university. 275 00:32:54,110 --> 00:32:59,270 The widespread and grave uncertainties about what passed for assured knowledge about crime and justice. 276 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:05,690 And there were particular doubts about the meaning and reliability of the statistics in recorded crime, 277 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,060 which underpinned reports about individual instances and classes of offending. 278 00:33:12,170 --> 00:33:23,570 Lord Longford said the end of the 1950s understood that there was an appalling incapacity 279 00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:29,540 in our measurement and writes in the book said the most difficult and one of us imperfect. 280 00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:35,360 All branch the statistics difficult to compile, difficult to comprehend and difficult to interpret. 281 00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:42,880 And somewhat tardy recognition of those failings. The Home Secretary of the town, Henry Brock, 282 00:33:43,180 --> 00:33:53,830 established the Departmental Committee of Criminal Statistics in June 1963, but it, I think, confess to failure. 283 00:33:54,250 --> 00:34:06,940 It was unable to deal with the problem of what was called the dark sticker crime, the crime that was not reported to the police. 284 00:34:08,860 --> 00:34:18,159 And it was only very much later in the seventies when Richard Sparks, the other Richard Sparks of was at the Time Institute, 285 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:27,850 I think, and with Hazel GED produced the first crime survey, which was followed later on by the British Crime Survey in 1981. 286 00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:35,740 And it remained the disquieting, abiding, described heart condition funding, potential capacity of criminology. 287 00:34:36,070 --> 00:34:43,960 Despite the foundations of two research centres in London and Cambridge, despite the growth of externally funded research, criminology was thin. 288 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,900 It continued to occupy a tenuous position in the academy lack numbers, coherence and authority. 289 00:34:50,380 --> 00:34:58,510 Gordon Rose, another criminologist at the time, said the criminologist is humble and only too well aware of its failings. 290 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,190 Is achieved a mild degree of respectability to recently to be anything else. 291 00:35:03,610 --> 00:35:16,480 When I was interviewed in this institution in 1966 by Max Beloff, I was when I was being promoted from probation to be left to do so. 292 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:22,140 I was asked over and over again to spell criminology as if it was some distasteful alien work. 293 00:35:23,830 --> 00:35:27,180 Academic criminology certainly had not led to indictment. 294 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,230 Roy Jenkins said in late 1966 were still shrouded in a considerable fog of ignorance. 295 00:35:32,740 --> 00:35:37,480 And on another occasion, seven years ago, any of us can say why there is a crime wave. 296 00:35:37,870 --> 00:35:41,680 There are various theories which a lot of research would try to prove our knowledge, 297 00:35:41,950 --> 00:35:46,840 but I think would be a very arrogant man who said, I know why people are doing criminal acts. 298 00:35:47,830 --> 00:35:51,459 Criminology excel to produce any solid, plausible explanation patterns. 299 00:35:51,460 --> 00:35:58,690 Movements of crime, perhaps only achievement to be to debunk existing theories in what an Oakley biographer described 300 00:35:58,690 --> 00:36:03,280 as a blistering attack on the confusions of criminals to the arrogance of social workers, 301 00:36:03,850 --> 00:36:05,889 Barbara Wootton said. Up to now, 302 00:36:05,890 --> 00:36:14,290 the chiefs have set a precise investigation into questions of social pathology as being to undermine the credibility of all that can't miss. 303 00:36:15,310 --> 00:36:19,010 Perhaps as window to the criminological self doubts never deserted the discipline. 304 00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:22,300 50 years later, precisely the same element could be heard. 305 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:28,389 This is, Edna said. Whatever the causes of its disgruntlement, there could be few disappearances. 306 00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:35,230 Leading protagonists are so ready to denounce that common project as what they examine. 307 00:36:35,230 --> 00:36:39,880 Criminal academic life is never perhaps what's going to be so. 308 00:36:40,690 --> 00:36:59,580 Thank you. What's that like? 309 00:37:02,170 --> 00:37:06,670 I don't have any PowerPoint to offer, I'm afraid. 310 00:37:09,010 --> 00:37:16,420 What part of our division of labour is that? Carving up this vastly different subject? 311 00:37:16,690 --> 00:37:20,560 My mind, my field is that of people policy. 312 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:30,790 And one of the first things I tried to tackle was the whole question of what happened 313 00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:40,060 to policy on long term prisoners on the conditions of a maximum security in the 1960s. 314 00:37:42,490 --> 00:37:51,490 The whole period really leading up to the mid 1960s in the penal field was one of optimism. 315 00:37:53,290 --> 00:37:54,700 It's easy to forget that. 316 00:37:54,730 --> 00:38:04,840 And in between the wars, there'd been roughly stability in the prison population, despite the crime rate more or less doubling in the 1930s. 317 00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:20,740 Alexander Patterson It's already been quoted by Paul as embodying that that optimism about liberal forms of humane treatment in the penal system, 318 00:38:20,740 --> 00:38:29,410 especially as far as young offenders were concerned. And the borstal system was held up to be rid of the army. 319 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:35,770 All of that whole approach about which culture has written a pioneering study. 320 00:38:40,090 --> 00:38:50,200 The mid-sixties, however, brought about a fundamental change in the whole perspective on the penal system. 321 00:38:52,090 --> 00:39:07,210 And this was partly because the number of prisoners had mushroomed from 21,000 or so in 1955 to 30000 in 1965, 322 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:28,210 and doubling from 1955 level to 1970 and escapes in particular had mushroomed from 88 and 55 to 522 in 1965. 323 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:30,190 Now, most of these were from open prisons, 324 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:39,250 but it was sudden spectacular escapes rather than increasing the rates of escape that triggered off the storm. 325 00:39:42,430 --> 00:39:51,100 Neither the Prison Commission nor the Home Office official more generally had seen the problem of 326 00:39:51,100 --> 00:40:00,580 liberalising regimes without tackling at all fairly obvious shortfalls and deficiencies in security. 327 00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:15,100 All of this could be handled until the New Kids on the block, as it were in crime terms, stopped to escape in rather spectacular fashion. 328 00:40:15,460 --> 00:40:21,370 For example, Ronald Biggs escape from Wandsworth in 1965. 329 00:40:22,570 --> 00:40:24,760 Bit like an evening comedy in some ways. 330 00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:38,200 There was a converted removal van with a hole cut in the roof for the prisoner who managed to scale the wall and as a rope that it was thrown over, 331 00:40:38,350 --> 00:40:47,040 that was not too difficult to then jump onto the roof of this van and off you go again. 332 00:40:47,050 --> 00:40:51,610 That might have been handled by the Home Office in a fairly intact perspective, as it were, 333 00:40:51,610 --> 00:41:08,050 of everything more or less being okay until a much more devastatingly spectacular escape occurred from Wormwood Scrubs by the Spy George Blake, 334 00:41:09,070 --> 00:41:18,790 who was assisted in his escape by two members of the Committee of 100 Pottle being being one of them. 335 00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:23,000 And again, this was relatively easily done. 336 00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:34,540 It made the top ten volumes, said the Home Office, something of a laughing stock because Blake's escape was at the time on a Saturday, 337 00:41:34,540 --> 00:41:40,750 I think it was, when only wanted two guards regarding a whole wing. 338 00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:53,470 He kicked in the rotting window frame, jumped down a roof and so on onto the wall, and it was away that there was therefore a problem. 339 00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:55,000 What's to be done? 340 00:41:57,330 --> 00:42:12,690 And in the political furore that ensued in which the Tory Opposition were mounting a censure motion of censure against the government, 341 00:42:14,070 --> 00:42:23,070 Roy Jenkins, the Home Secretary, decided to appoint a leading political figure, a leading national figure, rather, O Mountbatten, 342 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:33,510 to have an inquiry ordering an immediate security review, which would be reporting within a few months. 343 00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:45,780 In fact, Mountbatten and legendary fashion reporter within six weeks, he was accompanied by a few assessors, 344 00:42:46,650 --> 00:42:50,910 one of whom was Robert Mark, who later on became Chief Constable of London. 345 00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:55,470 Why was Mountbatten appointed? It was. 346 00:42:55,500 --> 00:43:04,140 It was mainly because I think a heavy weight figure was needed to reassure the public that everything would ultimately be under control. 347 00:43:05,820 --> 00:43:16,830 But one of the problems, I think, with the successful politics of that was that it was something of a rebuff to the Home Office culture of the day, 348 00:43:17,490 --> 00:43:28,830 which was still very attached to the liberal hopes and the optimistic reforms that they embodied in the borstal system. 349 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:43,800 One very senior figure who was very much a newcomer to the Home Office in the sixties but went on to very high office in the Home Office, 350 00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:56,670 actually called an interview about Baton and Monsour, who was the inspector of prisons, dictatorial. 351 00:43:58,350 --> 00:44:08,220 And it was generally felt to be in many ways an affront that such a figure had been appointed to lead this inquiry. 352 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:17,070 So nevertheless, the major recommendations of Mountbatten were accepted, 353 00:44:17,550 --> 00:44:23,610 which was that there should be the well-known classification of prisoners in terms 354 00:44:23,610 --> 00:44:30,600 of their escape risks posed and the danger that that would constitute to society. 355 00:44:30,930 --> 00:44:34,740 Category eight prisoners numbering around 120. 356 00:44:34,770 --> 00:44:47,400 At the time, Mountbatten reckoned there should be an all round improvement in the security of prisoners 357 00:44:49,290 --> 00:44:59,040 holding Category B prisoners who were somewhat less dangerous but still very escaped from the. 358 00:45:01,810 --> 00:45:09,250 Only recommendation of Mountbatten that was not accepted was that there should be a single prison constructed on the Isle of Wight, 359 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:10,630 what he called vectors, 360 00:45:13,150 --> 00:45:24,940 which should hold all the most at risk of escaped prisoners who constitute a some sort of recognisable danger to the public if they should escape. 361 00:45:25,870 --> 00:45:31,660 And that was the only recommendation that was not immediately accepted in full. 362 00:45:31,810 --> 00:45:35,020 It was accepted in principle, secretly. 363 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:48,100 But the task of constituting a regime for that prison was given to the subcommittee of the newly appointed Advisory Council on the Penal System, 364 00:45:49,060 --> 00:45:59,560 headed by Kenneth Younger and Leon Rhodes of it was chosen to be the chair of that subcommittee, along with Leo Adams, 365 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:06,760 the Labour MP who was to the fore on the abortion law reform and homosexual law reform campaigns. 366 00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:18,250 The Bishop of Exeter, Peter Scott, a leading psychiatrist who'd written about delinquency at the Maudsley Hospital in London's. 367 00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:30,510 Whereas Mountbatten had taken a very short time to report the reason this committee took considerably longer, well over a year. 368 00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:42,200 And there was some sort of concern in the Home Office that things would not be brought in quickly enough. 369 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:51,430 For example, on April the seventh, 1967, Sir Phillip Allen replied threads in bits that it would be sorry. 370 00:46:53,420 --> 00:46:58,639 Allen Roach runs into bits, basically asking for time. 371 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,870 A deadline sounded rather like the Chilcot report and the right is a much shorter time. 372 00:47:03,830 --> 00:47:05,360 When would this be ready? 373 00:47:06,350 --> 00:47:16,490 As Mountbatten suggested a completion date for his report for the prison to be built by June 1969, only two years away by that point. 374 00:47:18,230 --> 00:47:25,040 And rather than just write back to say it would take rather longer to report because they want 375 00:47:25,050 --> 00:47:32,090 to do a study of comparative prison systems as well as conducting some of their own research. 376 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:40,309 The interesting questions, I think, ranging from this whole concentration versus dispersal issue, 377 00:47:40,310 --> 00:47:54,110 which will eventually emanate from the report of the subcommittee, is that Mountbatten's report came to be seen as the most illiberal document. 378 00:47:54,220 --> 00:48:07,130 It was seen as having unnecessarily raised the stakes in terms of security so as to wrench the system by disproportionately in that direction. 379 00:48:09,980 --> 00:48:18,620 And it also led to the question on what grounds and by what means was the major recommendation of the report of Mountbatten rejected? 380 00:48:19,930 --> 00:48:29,120 And one of the most significant documents strangely neglected in the field is a book by Leo Adams, 381 00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:37,690 one of the four subcommittee members called Private Member, published in 1973 from the project. 382 00:48:37,790 --> 00:48:48,120 And I think it was a difficult time to write the book. 383 00:48:48,140 --> 00:49:02,640 It gives sort of. Amazing the full account of a machiavellian strategy which I've seen from copy, 384 00:49:03,690 --> 00:49:11,850 to persuade the Sub-Committee not to accept Mountbatten's proposal for concentrating all prisoners in one place, 385 00:49:12,270 --> 00:49:18,040 but to rather disperse them around lot three or four other prisoners. 386 00:49:20,810 --> 00:49:33,570 And a key argument for the advance was and this was apparently something he persuaded the other members of the committee to accept was 387 00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:51,930 that there should be alarming of gods of the perimeter to really mimic the Americans which which had great success in the States. 388 00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:55,710 If you have an armed perimeter, you know, it does cut down the likelihood of escape. 389 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:07,500 But it would also, in the view of the resident of its subcommittee, also minimise having minimise the risk of escape, 390 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:12,630 would maximise the possibility of liberal regimes being pursued in the prison. 391 00:50:13,740 --> 00:50:27,540 So this was a strategy partly propagated by APC in order to deflect liberal opinion from 392 00:50:27,540 --> 00:50:35,460 the main issue which was rejecting round back to the side issue of arming prison guards. 393 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:46,950 And in a sense it worked because there was a general outcry against the arming of protocol on the perimeter. 394 00:50:49,470 --> 00:51:00,330 And when the actual issue was discussed in the meetings of the Advisory Council, indeed it did tend to dominate proceedings. 395 00:51:00,340 --> 00:51:12,389 So having rejected that, some members of the committee were rather more prone to accept the rejection about Burton's major, 396 00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:17,550 major proposal and accept the dispersal alternative. 397 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:31,019 There were there were some issues concerning how the Mountbatten proposal came to be so stereotyped as a somewhat illiberal proposal, 398 00:51:31,020 --> 00:51:37,470 even though Mountbatten himself had proposed the rather like the president of his committee, 399 00:51:37,890 --> 00:51:44,100 that should be a liberal regime made possible by an invulnerable perimeter. 400 00:51:47,550 --> 00:51:53,880 That that was. Indeed. 401 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:13,180 A similarity between the two reports and in the end, I think, is what unites the two reports and the liberal principles that underlay them. 402 00:52:13,570 --> 00:52:21,520 That has enabled his party to avoid the supermax prison system, 403 00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:33,360 which has operated to dire effect in America and even in so liberal societies as the Netherlands that there is a supermax prison, 404 00:52:33,370 --> 00:52:34,660 we've managed to avoid that. 405 00:52:35,470 --> 00:52:48,310 And I think that that part is because there was some sort of a similarity in the Mountbatten and Gladstone of this proposal. 406 00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:57,399 But the the whole issue of why Mountbatten was in the end rejected does seem to have 407 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:05,650 been partly due to the stereotyping of the Mountbatten report as itself a liberal, 408 00:53:06,460 --> 00:53:17,290 and also due to the ABC strategy of introducing armed guards is a major recommendation. 409 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:27,680 The economic angle vectors would have cost rather a lot of money. 410 00:53:30,140 --> 00:53:38,000 Okay. Sorry. It's very, very difficult to actually get to the bottom of it. 411 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:45,350 This is the sort of difficulty one faces in pursuing the history. 412 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:55,699 A file, for example, a Treasury file labelled victims had nothing whatsoever to do with vectors containing a very detailed 413 00:53:55,700 --> 00:54:04,240 description of a prison built three years earlier and not even related to the building victims. 414 00:54:04,850 --> 00:54:15,020 So there's no evidence, as far as I can find, that the sheer cost of the project was what in the end ruled it out. 415 00:54:15,500 --> 00:54:17,930 But it was quoted by James Calhoun, 416 00:54:17,930 --> 00:54:29,090 who took over the same secretary as as a key reason for rejecting the Mountbatten proposal and accepting the alternative. 417 00:54:32,090 --> 00:54:35,360 Right. I'll take a call it it today. 418 00:54:35,660 --> 00:54:48,250 Thanks. My whole concept of it because I was going to start. 419 00:54:49,950 --> 00:54:52,979 I want to stand and then take my glasses off my mouth. 420 00:54:52,980 --> 00:55:00,960 I'm going to talk quick. Sleep on diverse. 421 00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:09,600 Good set up for that. We're in business. 422 00:55:10,370 --> 00:55:16,470 Clients are coming. I'm going to get this. We've overstayed all welcome already, so I'm going to keep it. 423 00:55:16,750 --> 00:55:21,060 You've got a minute's silence. About 2 minutes for. 424 00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,299 Give me a call in six. I'll I'll do this. I do this really quickly. 425 00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:28,890 So let me start by saying thanks. 426 00:55:28,890 --> 00:55:32,210 I'm really grateful to Colin and colleagues for inviting us. 427 00:55:32,220 --> 00:55:36,810 It's a real it's a pleasure to be here as we marking the 50th anniversary. 428 00:55:37,230 --> 00:55:45,209 I'm extremely grateful to Roger for two things. Firstly, for the in my case undeserved, for a very generous introduction, 429 00:55:45,210 --> 00:55:52,290 but more particularly for his comment that this kind of work can't be done in at least less than ten years, 430 00:55:52,290 --> 00:55:59,489 which makes me feel ever so slightly less guilty about the extraordinarily glacial progress that I seem to be making, 431 00:55:59,490 --> 00:56:04,820 certainly when compared with my young, boisterous, young colleagues. 432 00:56:05,970 --> 00:56:09,050 So what I'm going to do is talk about policing very briefly, so on. 433 00:56:09,090 --> 00:56:14,790 In this official history. I'm responsible for a bunch of things writing about policing and probation and juvenile justice. 434 00:56:14,790 --> 00:56:25,050 And although the drugs and policies and various the things and most of which I haven't done, but policing, I'm going to talk about 1966 and policing. 435 00:56:25,230 --> 00:56:33,900 Some of this will be familiar to you. Some have especially familiar to Elizabeth, who's written considerably and in detail about this subject, 436 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,580 most particularly with David McKay in policing and condition of England. 437 00:56:39,300 --> 00:56:46,110 So what does it look like? And policing in 1966, I would say looks very like policing. 438 00:56:46,110 --> 00:56:54,329 Looked in 1956, not far off, 120 police forces of varying size, 439 00:56:54,330 --> 00:57:02,710 the smallest of which in West Yorkshire, have an establishment of about 93% in the mid 1960s. 440 00:57:04,650 --> 00:57:14,490 In the lead up there'd been a royal commission and a major police of legislation, police, not 1964, and yet very little change in fact. 441 00:57:14,490 --> 00:57:19,560 So the extent that there was any really significant change, it didn't begin until somewhat later. 442 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:25,469 And largely as a consequence of the arrival of Roy Jenkins, who's been mentioned several times, 443 00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:31,950 who has more of a role in recent British police and history than is he's sometimes given credit for, I think, 444 00:57:31,950 --> 00:57:38,099 not least his role in forcing through amalgamations of police forces to reduce 445 00:57:38,100 --> 00:57:41,759 this hundred and 20 or so constabulary is down to something more manageable, 446 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:47,280 but also in the promulgation of new forms of policing, things like unit based policing, 447 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,620 which I want to talk about right now, but which he don't he played a pretty central role. 448 00:57:54,780 --> 00:58:00,600 So let me go back before it was the royal commission. 449 00:58:01,020 --> 00:58:09,360 Why a royal commission? Well, sometimes the royal commission is tends to be presented as the kind of logical outcome of the things that preceded it. 450 00:58:10,020 --> 00:58:13,770 There were a series of stumbles besetting policing, most of them very small. 451 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:21,930 But concerning the conduct of officers, junior and senior, the behaviour, 452 00:58:22,260 --> 00:58:28,319 corruption cases, conflicts between police forces and the local police authorities. 453 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,910 There had been a variety of other things going on, but these were all pretty small there. 454 00:58:33,540 --> 00:58:39,420 There were concerns about budgets and money. There was a significant issue of police pay. 455 00:58:41,220 --> 00:58:48,510 There was, as both David and all the talks about rising crime and by the standards of the period, significantly rising crime. 456 00:58:48,510 --> 00:58:54,090 And in the background also there'd been a race riots in the late 1950s in Nottingham and Notting Hill, 457 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:58,230 and yet none of this really explains the Royal Commission. 458 00:58:58,380 --> 00:59:06,740 There was no interest in the Home Office in having a Royal Commission to the extent the the Home Secretary, Ralph Butler, wanted a royal commission. 459 00:59:06,750 --> 00:59:09,000 He wanted a royal commission on the penal system. 460 00:59:09,210 --> 00:59:16,380 He arrived in the Home Office really keen to do something similar to what he'd done in education in the Home Office. 461 00:59:16,380 --> 00:59:19,410 But punishment in the penal system was what he was concerned about. 462 00:59:19,830 --> 00:59:27,390 The reason we had fundamentally had a royal commission was his mishandling of one of the scandal cases in the Houses of Parliament, 463 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:33,750 which led to a motion of censure against him, which he dealt with as politicians from time to time, 464 00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:42,900 to by announcing a commission of inquiry which turned in to the Royal Commission but had his sights set on other things. 465 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:51,240 It was an accident in many respects, linked to those previous, but nonetheless accidental, the royal commission itself. 466 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:57,120 So I've said a period of not very much changed that because leading up to 1966 and where we find ourselves, 467 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:04,980 the Royal Commission final report generally remembered for its construction of what we tend to call the tripartite structure of police. 468 01:00:05,060 --> 01:00:11,060 Governance. But it wasn't really much of a creation. It was more of a tidying up exercise in many respects. 469 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:20,780 And it took a very positive view of police, public relations, extraordinarily possibly optimism of the times the polling voters have talked about. 470 01:00:21,710 --> 01:00:30,230 It changed the police complaints system, but not much they rejected and the idea of some independent element in police complaints. 471 01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:40,850 Most graphically, it recommended that the Home Secretary be made responsible statutory statutorily for the efficiency of the police. 472 01:00:40,850 --> 01:00:49,020 And then perhaps most famously it rejected the idea of nationalisation, nationalisation which had been all nationalised, 473 01:00:49,020 --> 01:00:56,329 like a combination of nationalisation and regionalisation which had been put forward by one of the commission's members, 474 01:00:56,330 --> 01:00:59,770 Arthur Goodhart, who was master of University College London. 475 01:01:00,140 --> 01:01:04,430 Yeah, such an impressive report. 476 01:01:04,460 --> 01:01:07,970 His dissenting report at the end of the Royal Commission that won common sense. 477 01:01:07,970 --> 01:01:16,220 And I will just read this community itself, but it's lovely described the Royal Commission's report as 22 pages by Dr. Goodfellow with 478 01:01:16,220 --> 01:01:23,600 a preface seven times as long by faithfully admiring scindia as a diplomat and wonderful. 479 01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,790 So that was the royal commission's final report, translates it fairly quick. 480 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,680 Well, not for that quickly, within two years, but but fairly smoothly into legislation. 481 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:44,659 What we now know as the 1964 police act, 64 Police Act Act is upon most of the record of many of the recommendations of the Royal Commission. 482 01:01:44,660 --> 01:01:51,170 So a new tripartite structure, some changes to the police complaints system. 483 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:58,520 But in terms of the thing I want to focus on for our last two or 3 minutes structure of policing it too, 484 01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:03,860 like the Royal Commission rejected the idea of a national police force. 485 01:02:04,220 --> 01:02:06,240 Indeed, it went further than that. 486 01:02:06,290 --> 01:02:14,169 That been very significant debates within the Royal Commission about what the problem of nationalising the police was. 487 01:02:14,170 --> 01:02:24,350 So there was clearly a view among some members and also within the Home Office that nationalising the police, 488 01:02:24,350 --> 01:02:30,530 putting the police force in the hands of a single individual might be seen as some sort of threat to liberty. 489 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,210 The beginning was in some ways the slippery slope to a police state and so forth. 490 01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:42,799 Those broadly in favour of that within the Commission won the argument and there's a passage in the Commission 491 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:48,920 which says very straightforwardly that there's no in-principle problem with nationalising the police. 492 01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,280 Simply this is not the time or the moment. 493 01:02:53,660 --> 01:03:01,639 The Home Office, crucially in the period after with brief very strongly against what I would see as at least as I've said, 494 01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:09,230 that it was one of the Commission's most radical proposals, which was to make the Home Secretary statutory responsible, 495 01:03:09,230 --> 01:03:17,180 still not saying properly for the efficiency of the police, which didn't make it into the police act, 496 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:25,970 thereby in part I think neutral the proposals of the Royal Commission, a better title. 497 01:03:26,750 --> 01:03:36,320 So back to the policing landscape. In 1966 we've had a royal commission, a rather timid royal commission in some ways of how the police act, 498 01:03:36,860 --> 01:03:43,790 which acts largely on that royal commission's recommendations, but doesn't even go as far as the Royal Commission. 499 01:03:43,790 --> 01:03:46,790 But the circumstances in 1966 are worse now, 500 01:03:47,210 --> 01:03:52,430 very serious in which to take the things that I listed in relation to the establishment of the Royal Commission. 501 01:03:52,820 --> 01:03:59,959 Well, crimes coming up and we went back to full thoughts on that because of the rate of increase of crime prior to the Royal Commission. 502 01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:04,520 This has nothing to what's been happening in the period since through 1966. 503 01:04:05,660 --> 01:04:07,280 Budget constraints are getting worse. 504 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:14,389 The economy is now not that strong and there are very significant worries about how the police will cope and concerns about efficiency, 505 01:04:14,390 --> 01:04:19,310 which is why things like union policing and so forth, or at least in part come about, 506 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:24,980 even though the Royal Commission wasn't initially established to do so, dealt with police pay. 507 01:04:25,010 --> 01:04:31,729 This is back on the agenda on a significant political issue by 66, and policing scandals haven't gone away. 508 01:04:31,730 --> 01:04:34,840 For those who know the policing history, that was Harold Chukwuma, 509 01:04:35,450 --> 01:04:40,159 the finest Sergeant Challoner of Western Central Police Station in London, the Sheffield Rhino. 510 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:47,420 What case? All worth looking up if you fancy the scandals continued apace and would get worse, 511 01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:54,110 and yet always come largely within the Home Office officials for the largely undisturbed 512 01:04:54,110 --> 01:05:01,790 final with that's a broadly optimistic view as with much of the policy of policing held sway. 513 01:05:03,110 --> 01:05:11,349 And I would say that so little of. The change was a reflection of and as I'll keep this a reflection, at least in part, obviously, 514 01:05:11,350 --> 01:05:17,440 if the social and political conditions of the time, but also the nature and style of official present a broadly. 515 01:05:17,490 --> 01:05:25,770 Wickersham view of history still held sway within the Home Office extremely strongly took the view that whatever the problems, 516 01:05:25,770 --> 01:05:31,650 the Bush's police service was, quote unquote, probably still the best in the world and needs to be and really such and so forth. 517 01:05:32,340 --> 01:05:35,610 And that change, if there was to be change, was a classic example. 518 01:05:35,910 --> 01:05:38,430 If there was to be change, it should occur slowly, 519 01:05:38,430 --> 01:05:48,240 incrementally and automatically not pushed and not radically and certainly not stayed steady, as it were, in radical ways by the Home Office. 520 01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:56,159 On top of that, there was a broadly utilitarian concern with limiting the powers of the state, whether that was local but also national. 521 01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:02,430 But on top of that, I think there was and this forced the hands in many ways of the royal commission 522 01:06:02,430 --> 01:06:07,560 and then lay behind the way in which that was put into legislative practice in 64. 523 01:06:07,860 --> 01:06:16,950 There was a desire to protect the way the Home Office government, there was a desire to protect what one might call the soft power of the Home Office, 524 01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:24,290 working to influence behind the scenes rather than explicitly being held to account in Parliament for all that. 525 01:06:24,590 --> 01:06:29,520 And so if I haven't, that's been my welcome. A final slide, the legacy. 526 01:06:29,610 --> 01:06:33,630 So I talked about structure and where we come from. 527 01:06:33,690 --> 01:06:36,720 The royal commission, as I've said, was pretty timid. 528 01:06:37,170 --> 01:06:42,390 It rejected nationalisation. 529 01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:52,919 It largely defended the status quo. It did argue that the number of forces that existed could no longer be tolerated and should be reduced. 530 01:06:52,920 --> 01:07:00,479 But it gave absolutely no sense beyond suggesting that perhaps 500 officers was the smallest you could live, 531 01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,860 with no sense of principles of how modern British policing, 532 01:07:04,860 --> 01:07:10,980 also what the principles for the reorganisation on the future of British policing should be. 533 01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:18,150 It defended localism entirely on the basis of negative rather than positive arguments. 534 01:07:18,780 --> 01:07:28,050 And yet I would say in some respects it remains more radical than the Home Office of the Time, which is the brief on reform. 535 01:07:28,650 --> 01:07:34,710 So just speaking on the final word on structures offered, Goodhart had argued strongly, 536 01:07:35,430 --> 01:07:43,560 and I would say to many of us convincingly in favour of rationalising or nationalising the police. 537 01:07:44,070 --> 01:07:51,960 At the time he did so on the Royal Commission, there were several members who agreed with him, but who in the end decided not to sign his reports, 538 01:07:52,350 --> 01:07:57,479 or rather to sign the official report on the basis that they felt that this 539 01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,920 was a political strategy for getting other things that they wanted through. 540 01:08:04,340 --> 01:08:14,600 However, the actions of the policy makers of Henry Brookes and his Home Secretary and of those who saw the act through Parliament, 541 01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:16,520 despite many members of the Royal Commission, 542 01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:22,579 they were very unhappy about losing some of their more radical proposals and also the way in which officials, 543 01:08:22,580 --> 01:08:31,190 including the Home Secretary, set their face against any form of major structural reform reform of police by 1967. 544 01:08:31,790 --> 01:08:40,220 The deputy chair of the Commission had come out very publicly in a major public speech to say he now favoured nationalisation of the police. 545 01:08:40,730 --> 01:08:47,150 That prompted a Sunday Times journalist to bring up all the other members of the commission and found out 546 01:08:47,150 --> 01:08:52,180 that actually they all now or pretty often there was still a number who were tied to local authorities. 547 01:08:52,190 --> 01:09:00,560 But apart from them in the main, all members of the Royal Commission, apart from those few now faced with nationalisation, 548 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:10,040 the chairman, Sir Henry Willet, refused at the time, quite properly possibly, to answer the journalists questions. 549 01:09:10,250 --> 01:09:20,239 But it seems he, too, had changed his mind by 1970 and his still unpublished autobiography, a very short autobiography, 550 01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:25,610 in which he says almost nothing about the Royal Commission on the Police for a page 551 01:09:25,610 --> 01:09:30,140 and a half or so in a little blue ink scribbled at the bottom of one of the pages. 552 01:09:30,650 --> 01:09:36,889 There's a little amendments, a little addendum to what is written in which he says, this is written in 1970. 553 01:09:36,890 --> 01:09:43,070 I assume it was going to be inserted into the final copy of the final manuscript. 554 01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:50,690 In retrospect, Will said, I think the commission's policy of larger unions was right in 1960 264, 555 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:54,560 so nationalised would at that time have been to move too fast. 556 01:09:54,800 --> 01:10:00,080 Echoes of the Home Office and a Conservative government would not have accepted Dr. Goodhart speech. 557 01:10:00,890 --> 01:10:08,240 It may now or soon underlines the right to uniform unify the whole force. 558 01:10:09,950 --> 01:10:13,760 That was, what, 46 years ago almost. 559 01:10:13,820 --> 01:10:17,660 We still have 43 Constabulary's of England and Wales. 560 01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:25,520 I mean, at no point in the intervening breeding period have we had policymakers willing seriously, I think, 561 01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:31,460 to consider what the members of the royal commission by the end of the decade were willing to consider. 562 01:10:31,940 --> 01:10:39,440 Thank you. The poll results come out. 563 01:10:44,530 --> 01:10:55,549 What should I do with it? But those are three very, very interesting papers. 564 01:10:55,550 --> 01:11:01,220 I'm sure you agree. And I'm sure there are questions for the speakers who would like to begin. 565 01:11:05,170 --> 01:11:07,740 Somebody has to come up with it. 566 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:17,019 One of the things that strikes the interesting things that strikes me about these employees is that you're all more or less of been 567 01:11:17,020 --> 01:11:25,880 asked to kind of go over and retrace and recover events and practices that U.S. policy of war through the like and instigating, 568 01:11:25,890 --> 01:11:34,209 observing and commenting upon. And you're also going over a period in which there is a kind of the design of all this could have been 569 01:11:34,210 --> 01:11:40,660 received view about what's happened over this period relation both to particular and the general. 570 01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:50,980 And I receive you to some extent you yourselves have contributed to and I just wondered against that backdrop of engaging yourself in this process. 571 01:11:51,790 --> 01:11:56,680 Have you felt the same thing that surprised you would get you to revise anything you previously thought about? 572 01:11:57,070 --> 01:12:06,110 I say something very quickly because this is something that struck me. I taught criminology for a very long time up to retirement age, 573 01:12:06,550 --> 01:12:11,710 and I was massively disconcerted to discover that I'm barred from this official history. 574 01:12:11,950 --> 01:12:16,510 I had really know very little about this subject, very little about criminal justice. 575 01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:22,479 I think two of the tasks I set myself partly on instructions from the government side office 576 01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:28,330 was to look at the setting up of the prosecutions of some of the 85 Act and secondly, 577 01:12:28,330 --> 01:12:32,690 the abolition of the South Sessions and the establishment of a Crown Court. 578 01:12:33,070 --> 01:12:38,020 To the best of my knowledge, those have never, ever been covered in any of the historical literature. 579 01:12:38,410 --> 01:12:42,300 So there was, as it were, a venture into the Virgin territory. 580 01:12:42,310 --> 01:12:50,710 That was the first act. So it wasn't as if this was familiar terrain about which I had received a received opinion. 581 01:12:51,010 --> 01:12:57,670 The second thing was, and Tim has hinted at it was across the board as far as I was concerned. 582 01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:04,450 There were a number of things which I don't think have been very firmly addressed in our literature. 583 01:13:05,170 --> 01:13:13,149 The impact of utilitarianism, in particular weakest things inherited from the 1830 moving forward is about 584 01:13:13,150 --> 01:13:16,180 the distrust of the states you talked about in the connection of policing. 585 01:13:16,510 --> 01:13:23,560 That certainly was very evident. And everything that Bentham said about the arbitrary dispensing powers of a prosecutor 586 01:13:24,310 --> 01:13:30,580 will be said under the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure over 100 years later, 587 01:13:31,180 --> 01:13:34,630 certainly being said about the setting up of a unitary court system. 588 01:13:35,020 --> 01:13:46,569 So it's those things. And the third thing is that going back to some of my earlier my earlier observation and the importance of informal 589 01:13:46,570 --> 01:13:53,950 social control as the dynamic of regulation and the inability of the state effectively to influence that, 590 01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:57,640 it was a great deal of what about show of powerful rituals, of rationality. 591 01:13:57,820 --> 01:14:03,070 We don't know what we're doing, but we ought to try, as it were, to look as if we were busy. 592 01:14:03,340 --> 01:14:12,370 And the business consisted of what Harold Wilson called modernisation rationalisation, the introduction of scientific technologies and so on, 593 01:14:12,670 --> 01:14:17,590 not with any great optimism about the impact, but to show that we were doing something. 594 01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:21,880 And, you know, the Home Office papers are full of that. 595 01:14:22,300 --> 01:14:25,320 But I think David may have a slightly different reading on that. 596 01:14:25,330 --> 01:14:35,920 I'm slightly more optimistic. So those three things. But it's it seems to me as if what I mean to then read is simply, look, you know, not folding. 597 01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:41,620 That's my project, you know. And I do think that is very heavily emphasised in the literature that we have. 598 01:14:45,220 --> 01:14:54,130 Yes. That's certainly something coming in to surprise me just after that was how you trawl through all the cabinet notebooks, 599 01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,760 just how little law and order discussed in cabinet. 600 01:14:59,770 --> 01:15:03,010 You would think that would be much more of a major concern. 601 01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:06,969 The fact is, and if the examples of thing I've just been talking about, 602 01:15:06,970 --> 01:15:12,549 the Mountbatten report wasn't discussed in Cabinet at all until Liam Gallagher 603 01:15:12,550 --> 01:15:20,500 announced that effectively it would be put into the legislative package and 604 01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:24,879 things like that to responsible business intellectuals monomania to assume that 605 01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:31,030 his or her subject was terribly bought by politicians to a degree to surprises. 606 01:15:31,370 --> 01:15:39,190 The first one, just naivety I'm not trying to story and so therefore it came as a surprise to me to find how few surprises to the bill. 607 01:15:39,710 --> 01:15:48,700 But I thought that the the archives would be, if not stocked full of they would at least occasionally reveal a smoking gun. 608 01:15:49,750 --> 01:15:55,140 But I've really still yet to find them. And the second one is, I think I don't know how much of a surprise it is, but the, 609 01:15:55,480 --> 01:16:02,860 the thing that's interested me and it would be a subject for further discussion another time is the role of individual agency, 610 01:16:02,860 --> 01:16:10,810 I think constantly surprised by just how influential individual ministers are, especially secretaries of state, 611 01:16:11,440 --> 01:16:21,400 on the kind of tenure and direction of their departments and how a change of an individual such can make such a substantial difference. 612 01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:26,690 And most important of all, perhaps the general government. But hopefully. 613 01:16:30,820 --> 01:16:35,660 I said, thank you. I wanted to pick up on that part of what you're saying. 614 01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:43,270 That's fascinating, and I look forward to seeing it. Soon started for them. 615 01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:49,670 But I want to pick up on Paul's point about the about this being a utilitarian 616 01:16:49,670 --> 01:16:53,749 project and simultaneously the point you made about distrust of the site, 617 01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:58,790 because it sent me thinking about something that I was wondering about when you went to think of your presentation, 618 01:16:58,790 --> 01:17:06,589 which is what motivated the state sponsorship and funding and motivation of 619 01:17:06,590 --> 01:17:11,389 criminology within the universities and most obviously the Institute in Cambridge, 620 01:17:11,390 --> 01:17:16,130 but also very generous funding to that to be a reason to do criminology here. 621 01:17:16,370 --> 01:17:19,579 And how far was that, in your view, 622 01:17:19,580 --> 01:17:27,950 any of it the consequence of a recognition precisely of this distrust of the state and the desire to create an independent body, 623 01:17:27,950 --> 01:17:34,610 a cadre of researchers who would would assess and criticise without a doubt to do things independently from the state. 624 01:17:34,850 --> 01:17:42,780 And how far was it really just part of that utilitarian project about having having agents in the field to collect this? 625 01:17:42,830 --> 01:17:49,590 I suspect Roger could answer that festival. Well, I would think it's the latter myself. 626 01:17:50,160 --> 01:18:00,330 I mean, I was wondering whether you whether you had really come across good examples of where this interface between the state as the funders, 627 01:18:00,780 --> 01:18:07,620 the promoters of research have sought to constrain the kinds of knowledge and 628 01:18:07,620 --> 01:18:13,050 access necessary for that research to be carried out effectively and candidly. 629 01:18:13,710 --> 01:18:18,330 I mean, that is the thing that we visible this is what we hit upon in Oxford. 630 01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:29,220 As soon as we started to examine sentencing, in particular in the Crown Court, that's a very great example in the parole system. 631 01:18:29,620 --> 01:18:34,380 I actually being a member of the Early Parole Board where I came to do research on it, 632 01:18:34,740 --> 01:18:38,850 we weren't allowed to go and sit and listen to what the parole board said, 633 01:18:39,300 --> 01:18:46,590 although two journalists were allowed in there and it was astonishingly restrictive and many, 634 01:18:46,590 --> 01:18:52,530 many people who were working on research, some of the official one here found that very frustrating. 635 01:18:53,130 --> 01:18:56,640 And it's not easy to explain, given this is Quest question. 636 01:18:58,050 --> 01:19:02,340 See what I mean? You know, what's the purpose of this? Why are they spending this money on it? 637 01:19:02,910 --> 01:19:08,430 Well, I mean, it came up with the welfare state to begin with, I think in 1948 on the criminal justice bill, 638 01:19:08,970 --> 01:19:13,080 when they put forward the view is we have to cope with this crime problem. 639 01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:17,550 How does this how does criminality fit in with the development of a welfare state? 640 01:19:18,270 --> 01:19:21,990 How can we learn all that crime? What can we do to prevent it? 641 01:19:22,230 --> 01:19:24,830 Pure kill, in inverted commas it. 642 01:19:25,260 --> 01:19:34,710 And we need social scientists and psychiatrists and other people working in that field to help us to find the answers to this question. 643 01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:40,950 And it was, of course, a time when following on from the 1930s where there had been, 644 01:19:40,950 --> 01:19:48,240 as David said, a great deal of optimism about the prospects of a reformative system. 645 01:19:48,630 --> 01:19:56,820 The work I mean, my very early work, my thesis on the postal system just showed that this famous commissioners, 646 01:19:56,820 --> 01:20:05,100 Alexander Patterson, really believed that the system is working to kind of recidivism at its roots. 647 01:20:06,510 --> 01:20:09,750 We no longer have these adult criminals, recidivist criminals, 648 01:20:10,860 --> 01:20:18,470 circulating repetitively through the prison system and for which the prison system simply wasn't set up to deal with. 649 01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:26,730 So there was a strategy there. And a lot of this research, I think, was connected with the idea of how do we put this strategy into effect. 650 01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:33,209 It because it was a it was a really genuine to many cases arose that a lot of the 651 01:20:33,210 --> 01:20:39,480 research that was being practised a time we're talking about mid-sixties or thereabouts, 652 01:20:39,810 --> 01:20:43,680 does not engage. It was not intrusive. It was not likely to expose scandal. 653 01:20:44,250 --> 01:20:52,350 That came rather late. I mean, your work on the Crown Court, which is called the private lives of judges similar to it, isn't that right? 654 01:20:52,350 --> 01:21:03,989 Which was. But we weren't allowed to interview Judge. Yes. Yeah. But when was Terry Morris's work on pensions of 60, late fifties and early sixties, 655 01:21:03,990 --> 01:21:12,600 there was a whole chapter that was sense of that in which he had been present to arise consequent upon an execution. 656 01:21:12,930 --> 01:21:18,540 And the Home Office on was this was not proposed. It did not exist because it could not be analysed. 657 01:21:18,900 --> 01:21:25,900 So the were the beginnings for that. That was because Terry was using the beginnings of a kind of crime. 658 01:21:26,220 --> 01:21:38,100 It became really came to a head. And it much later with Stan and Doris on psychological survival, where, as it were, in a rather covert way, 659 01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:48,090 they talked about the coping strategies along temperate Christmas in Durham and that sort of relations for a long time in criminology. 660 01:21:48,450 --> 01:21:58,590 And the was I don't think up until that point anything was regarded as being particularly contentious or prone to generate scandal. 661 01:21:58,860 --> 01:22:05,210 You could think of examples where split research actually supported the political programmes of people, 662 01:22:05,250 --> 01:22:08,930 of the homicide of, for example, the Home Office. 663 01:22:09,330 --> 01:22:16,590 It showed that the 57 Act had not made a difference to the rates of murder, was very, very influential. 664 01:22:16,590 --> 01:22:21,570 I think probably the most successful piece of early work to to to that policymaking. 665 01:22:24,420 --> 01:22:30,020 Hello? Yes, please. So thank you guys for coming through. 666 01:22:30,780 --> 01:22:38,520 And my question revolves, involves that the history of appears very quiet, very masculine and very male. 667 01:22:38,970 --> 01:22:46,650 And I have a very interesting question involving how can we see the fact that how do we see 668 01:22:46,650 --> 01:22:51,059 this in a reflection of the chronology for it and what impacts and what has been lost, 669 01:22:51,060 --> 01:22:58,830 do you think, in the orientation of the discipline, because these voices are not present in the discipline from these early ages? 670 01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:01,950 Or do you think that there wasn't? Well, I think that's quite fair. 671 01:23:01,950 --> 01:23:07,200 I mean, I talked on a number of occasions by Barbara Wootton, who was a woman of considerable importance. 672 01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:17,970 I think she taught at a benefit for colleges that there was Pauline Morris, who was a woman of of, of some importance. 673 01:23:18,330 --> 01:23:21,930 The trio who set up a human research unit here included Sarah McCabe. 674 01:23:22,380 --> 01:23:28,020 So there were there were a series of women's groups and also the Home Office Research Unit. 675 01:23:29,910 --> 01:23:38,850 So the that there weren't many women about the work, but it was heavily male wife's. 676 01:23:38,850 --> 01:23:42,090 Yes, it probably was oldest came later. 677 01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:47,050 There's an article that influenced me greatly in Social Problems 68. 678 01:23:47,100 --> 01:23:53,010 I think that a recent article, the how businessmen talk about the revolts of the cloth, 679 01:23:53,280 --> 01:24:01,439 talking about the way in which something populations started rising up against experts and trying to redefine fields in Scotland. 680 01:24:01,440 --> 01:24:03,059 So that came later. 681 01:24:03,060 --> 01:24:10,379 And you get people like Ken Plummer talking about, you know, homosexuality, gay men, you talk, you get people to talk about issues of race. 682 01:24:10,380 --> 01:24:16,350 And so those things weren't in evidence then. It was very low dumped on the at the time. 683 01:24:17,820 --> 01:24:19,649 And it was very difficult session. 684 01:24:19,650 --> 01:24:29,700 I mean, the thing that one thing that interested me was the setting up of a criminal interest compensation scheme in 1965 by Lesley Wilkins, 685 01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:33,750 not by those people that informed him. He provided a lot of the research. 686 01:24:36,090 --> 01:24:42,270 There was no sense of the time. You've talked to victims and asked what they needed you knew best and there was a lot 687 01:24:42,270 --> 01:24:48,690 of knowing Best Buy as you were using it in a rather a group of white intellectuals. 688 01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:53,750 But I think the gender thing could be overstated to us too. 689 01:24:53,780 --> 01:25:03,929 So, I mean, the point that you raise about both criminal justice and criminology appearing very white, very male, which is right in many respects. 690 01:25:03,930 --> 01:25:09,899 There's still are, although elements of that are changing as part of the object, the study of the official history as well. 691 01:25:09,900 --> 01:25:20,350 So if you just take policing policing in 1966 was indeed very white and very well, but it's now rather less white and significantly less money. 692 01:25:21,300 --> 01:25:30,720 And in its relation to women as citizens, be they reporting crimes or victims of crimes and so forth, 693 01:25:31,170 --> 01:25:36,890 the nature of the world has changed somewhat, not as much as we would like, and certainly so that's that is part of the object. 694 01:25:36,900 --> 01:25:40,770 So the subject of the study, too. So it's the problematic. 695 01:25:41,190 --> 01:25:57,450 It's a very it's a very important. Still there are three old white geezers sitting up here, so it must be something like the towards work. 696 01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:03,570 Quite interesting work being done on. John Lambert, for example, crime, police and race relations, for example. 697 01:26:03,570 --> 01:26:07,979 There are a number of other studies. So it's not as if they didn't exist. 698 01:26:07,980 --> 01:26:12,090 They made a real hobbyhorse of mine. 699 01:26:12,390 --> 01:26:18,570 Is this idea of Kurdish centrism, the fact that we forget our past and we tend with the blitzkrieg, 700 01:26:18,570 --> 01:26:26,639 that a great deal of the early history of social science research in this industry, in this country, including early work on race and race. 701 01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:34,170 And the John Rex did, for example, work on an important work on race remarks about a michelangelo so that, 702 01:26:34,620 --> 01:26:38,159 you know, the statement that it didn't exist is a reflection more of, 703 01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:45,720 as it were, of institutional myopia than I think of what might on, you know, closer scrutiny proved to be the case. 704 01:26:47,490 --> 01:26:51,130 Yes. Else? Yes, please. Oh, yes. 705 01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:56,130 So I was just thinking that like the 1960s and reflecting back on international history, 706 01:26:56,460 --> 01:27:06,440 I wonder if there was any influence applied to the Cold War of high quality decolonisation around the world for me, like did that have an impact on. 707 01:27:10,110 --> 01:27:14,110 I did not visible that I could see so. 708 01:27:16,100 --> 01:27:21,920 Tim Armstrong. Let's hope they turn up Hong Kong policing, didn't they? 709 01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:31,100 At one point in terms of crowd control, but well, from the 1950s, an aggression becomes an issue. 710 01:27:33,710 --> 01:27:41,810 And I mean, earlier I was talking about Jenkins and police and with Jenkins, Jenkins was also important for his interventions in race relations. 711 01:27:42,350 --> 01:27:48,620 I mean, again, not necessarily things that he is remembered for and Franciscans and Franciscans also, 712 01:27:48,950 --> 01:27:54,440 but I would say not that I can think of in any major way in the 1960s. 713 01:27:58,570 --> 01:28:08,860 Yes, please. I think that the analysis that we have kept wrong on the politics of the content of 714 01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:16,240 the policy would suggest that actually across all of the other obvious policy areas, 715 01:28:16,250 --> 01:28:20,190 including foreign policy and so on, you did have a lot of. 716 01:28:21,470 --> 01:28:28,190 Political disputes, and I'm not going to make a point to tell them either on main parties. 717 01:28:28,190 --> 01:28:40,100 But one area which was exempt for a very long time until the early 70, that's why I can't remember the exact date was actually prime justice. 718 01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:50,929 And going back to this question about the investments in technology was this was a time when there was consensus that it 719 01:28:50,930 --> 01:29:02,600 was preferable to leave it to the experts and to invest in that rather than turn it into a matter of operational dispute. 720 01:29:03,170 --> 01:29:06,770 That's been changed in the seventies and obviously the rise in the eighties. 721 01:29:06,770 --> 01:29:11,180 And so, you know, it was it's been like that ever since. 722 01:29:11,570 --> 01:29:14,720 But there has there was a consensus which was exceptional. 723 01:29:15,300 --> 01:29:22,770 At that time around the area, Jesus Christ, which didn't contain development assistance. 724 01:29:23,070 --> 01:29:27,030 And I think that that analysis may tell us some of these. 725 01:29:31,340 --> 01:29:36,690 I think what it represented. So. 726 01:29:38,830 --> 01:29:48,400 We've got some comments. Well, I think I think that's broadly true, but we've had some very early signs of differences to come. 727 01:29:48,430 --> 01:29:55,090 For example, the 1954 Labour Party Working Group under Lord Longford, 728 01:29:55,450 --> 01:30:04,930 we've produced quite a challenge to his all stops to draw some links between social and economic conditions in France. 729 01:30:05,230 --> 01:30:12,010 I think one of the things we cite is if you look at the party manifestos in the general election, 730 01:30:12,460 --> 01:30:20,910 you can actually see where the watershed comes with the first time you want an order of justice becomes. 731 01:30:22,050 --> 01:30:28,530 And it's between the political parties in the in their manifestos going out to the general election. 732 01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:34,480 I mean, obviously, late on this point, there was no 1970. 733 01:30:35,220 --> 01:30:39,840 You're kidding, right? Yeah. The 1979 is the real turning point. 734 01:30:39,870 --> 01:30:42,689 It's not exactly the point. 735 01:30:42,690 --> 01:30:50,880 We've been the period really covering is still a point where you have this consensus and that actually explains some of the questions. 736 01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:53,370 There's a very interesting framing issue here, 737 01:30:53,370 --> 01:31:02,690 is that not in front of thousands have started saying that they have time to call the conventional, conventional argument. 738 01:31:02,700 --> 01:31:09,300 Women are not interesting, interesting criminological because they commit so little crime makes them very interesting indeed. 739 01:31:09,990 --> 01:31:21,990 And I think the consensus initially, if we talk about race, is that what we call western new immigrants were remarkably little primitive crime. 740 01:31:22,020 --> 01:31:28,580 I mean, that was that was the difference between 72 and 74, I think, in the Home Affairs Commission. 741 01:31:28,710 --> 01:31:32,700 But I think it was used on, let's call, these statistics, which changed. 742 01:31:32,700 --> 01:31:35,460 And I think of John Lambert's work in Birmingham too, 743 01:31:36,210 --> 01:31:44,670 was it was mainly it was mainly the difference in the name discussing the methods of documentary that we've just same book you know. 744 01:31:48,050 --> 01:31:57,050 Well, it's not change, but that was out with the main debate in the movie and the debates about race. 745 01:31:58,160 --> 01:31:59,560 Well, I think it's really crucial. 746 01:31:59,570 --> 01:32:08,660 I mean, the point that you made as well as well established, I think that there was a broad bipartisan consensus about law and order matters. 747 01:32:08,660 --> 01:32:17,330 And so the dance more than anybody's who's written about the the third issue about criminological research and the experts, 748 01:32:17,330 --> 01:32:23,780 I think it's not so much that there was a there was a political consensus out of which government was able to say, 749 01:32:24,140 --> 01:32:27,890 well, necessarily that that was the main thing, able to say, leave it to the experts. 750 01:32:27,890 --> 01:32:33,240 It wasn't that at that time it believed that there might be experts who would be able to solve the problems. 751 01:32:33,620 --> 01:32:36,379 That's the fascinating thing. And that's what then subsequently disappears. 752 01:32:36,380 --> 01:32:45,709 Buckley, who was the prime mover behind the Home Office initially between the Home Office Research Unit and the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge, 753 01:32:45,710 --> 01:32:48,840 and also in a much more minor way, something within the realm of schools. 754 01:32:49,130 --> 01:32:55,460 The Police Research and Planning Branch was a just an almost naive believer in the power of science, 755 01:32:55,730 --> 01:33:03,320 Wilson's Y piece of technology that if you just were able to pull some resources for long enough at the disposal of experts, 756 01:33:03,710 --> 01:33:10,190 they would help you solve these problems that I think sent us to the West over all that long. 757 01:33:10,790 --> 01:33:17,479 And I mean, to go back to Roger's question about whether governments were good examples of government standing in the way of research, 758 01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:23,990 I've certainly not come across them. But what it didn't necessarily do was, in many cases follow up with resources. 759 01:33:24,350 --> 01:33:31,549 So something like the Police Research and planning branch was a great idea and and Butler and others who 760 01:33:31,550 --> 01:33:36,590 followed them talked it up for something which would solve the problem of police efficiency and so forth. 761 01:33:36,980 --> 01:33:43,639 But they never staffed it with anybody who might be who might have any obvious expertise, scientifically or otherwise, 762 01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:50,870 or gave it the resources that might allow it to do such a job, even with substantial possible or even certainly waste. 763 01:33:51,590 --> 01:33:58,780 So what it's done in research before making political pronouncements about how policing works, and that was much more of a problem with research. 764 01:33:58,790 --> 01:34:06,280 It was the moment that was seized in the sixties when it was just announced because it's pontificating from grass less material, 765 01:34:06,380 --> 01:34:13,700 people were actually behind promoting the idea that that is the way to manage it. 766 01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:24,860 And that was what so many criminological research, even subsequently, you know, that was not respected and is increasingly being eroded and. 767 01:34:26,590 --> 01:34:29,590 Skew compromise and disregard in design. 768 01:34:29,830 --> 01:34:33,100 I mean, the very top concern for undeniable democracy. 769 01:34:33,860 --> 01:34:37,610 Yet, you know, there's still a very strong tradition of independence. 770 01:34:37,630 --> 01:34:43,600 There's a level of constraint. So you have to offer the constraints on what you could research. 771 01:34:43,870 --> 01:34:49,060 At least there was this little research outcomes would not be accepted. 772 01:34:49,570 --> 01:34:52,720 And that went pretty soon after that, the nineties. 773 01:34:52,990 --> 01:35:01,290 But I think that initial sort of seed. The search was the product of that moment in the sixties. 774 01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:05,570 And I think what we need to understand is in those terms, even subsequent. 775 01:35:06,420 --> 01:35:14,470 Was the research very about the impact. I realised we're running out there is, there is a story that has not been told. 776 01:35:15,110 --> 01:35:21,599 I'm not sure I'm the one to tell it of a time when there were very few criminologists established 777 01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:27,830 in what were regarded as the better universities who exercised extraordinary influence, 778 01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:31,580 I think, at least in terms of the influence of the drugs in a vegetarian. 779 01:35:31,590 --> 01:35:39,930 Morris. Nigel Walker. And there were few of them and they were very busy and they had a rather grand 780 01:35:39,930 --> 01:35:44,710 idea of themselves and at the same time knew that they had problems with offer. 781 01:35:45,260 --> 01:35:52,160 And so that kind of and the kind of great separation so that the loss of the whole of this 782 01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:58,250 research unit seemed to be one of the great undocumented tragedies of research in this country. 783 01:35:58,260 --> 01:36:01,409 Nobody I don't know why it was disbanded. 784 01:36:01,410 --> 01:36:07,260 I know a little bit of the process, but not much of it. It was doing sterling work and it's now lost to us. 785 01:36:07,530 --> 01:36:13,200 And there's this gulf, I think, between expertise and government, which is really quite novel. 786 01:36:14,140 --> 01:36:15,840 I don't know if you've recall. Well, I do. 787 01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:23,850 I mean, right up to the 1980s, the Home Office really promoted research in the universities and expanded research and intelligence. 788 01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:27,980 And internally, you you get normally from home office. 789 01:36:28,590 --> 01:36:34,950 How do you know? Whereas you see the Oxford Centre was shielded from collapse. 790 01:36:35,550 --> 01:36:44,010 We put it that way by the Home Office, which is an agreement that projects would be found and people could be, 791 01:36:45,030 --> 01:36:49,830 could have some sense of security over a career even if it wasn't established first. 792 01:36:50,550 --> 01:36:54,840 And you know, people like Mike Maguire, who made such a good name for himself, 793 01:36:55,140 --> 01:37:03,390 moved on from project to project to project and never made sure that there was work available, which was, I mean, really pioneering. 794 01:37:04,050 --> 01:37:18,690 Yes. I mean, the all the stuff on productivity, which is all paid off in terms of falling crime rates to some degree, anyway, was was pioneered. 795 01:37:19,170 --> 01:37:21,870 Yes, absolutely right. Yeah. 796 01:37:22,140 --> 01:37:29,520 Phil Clarke The paradox is that the greater the numbers of criminologists and the better their expertise, the less influence they have. 797 01:37:32,060 --> 01:37:38,940 Yes, well, I think that's a good point and a good note. 798 01:37:39,390 --> 01:37:46,620 And so I think Alan tells me that there's some drinks at the end of the table, 799 01:37:46,620 --> 01:37:53,760 those who'd like to stay and chat with distinguished speakers, I'm sure that they'd love to have more conversation with you. 800 01:37:54,450 --> 01:37:58,780 And how long we got the first 45 minutes. 801 01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:02,190 I think that that would be about right, yes. So do help yourself. 802 01:38:02,190 --> 01:38:08,790 And before we thank our speakers, but the same thing, can I just remind everybody that I hope Fourth Ismaila is going to be here. 803 01:38:09,370 --> 01:38:16,310 Talk about the myth of the model of crime and Democratic politics, which will be absolutely wonderful. 804 01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:19,460 So we look forward to seeing all the attention. 805 01:38:29,500 --> 01:38:33,300 Oh, this is fine. Thank you very much. 806 01:38:33,440 --> 01:38:41,440 I'm not sorry. No, no, no, it's not. Somebody else wrote this.