1
00:00:00,860 --> 00:00:05,460
He says record general direction. So he's filled all the time.

2
00:00:06,660 --> 00:00:10,380
So it's my great pleasure to welcome Anna Erickson here.

3
00:00:10,410 --> 00:00:13,650
Anna is senior lecturer in. Monash.

4
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:22,260
So I am virtual colleague and Anna is also visiting us here at the centre for this term and most of us will be familiar with that.

5
00:00:22,290 --> 00:00:25,970
His work with John Pratt on. Exceptionalism.

6
00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:33,500
And today we are going to be hearing from Anna's current research project, which has just finished the fieldwork,

7
00:00:34,340 --> 00:00:40,280
where she's going back to look at some of the concepts and issues that they found and believed in the first study from a slightly different angle.

8
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:48,240
So I'll hand over to Anna. And I just wanna say we have the room for 90 minutes in a typical Mary Bosworth's fashion.

9
00:00:48,420 --> 00:00:52,110
I actually have to leave by about ten possible to get the children.

10
00:00:52,530 --> 00:00:57,239
So I think Anna is trying to fix only about an hour with half an hour talking and half got questions.

11
00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,660
But if everyone's. Yeah. Happily chatting, I'll just. Quietly the.

12
00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:07,490
Thanks. Thanks. I aim for half an hour. I always say it's going to be longer, but you know that's how it works.

13
00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:12,710
Hopefully it's interesting enough. So we'll see. So thank you all for coming.

14
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:19,669
Hopefully you have something to to discuss afterwards that will be hugely useful for me, if nothing else.

15
00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:27,640
So the study I'll talk about today, it's people everywhere and it's in many way an extension of the work I did with John Pratt's

16
00:01:27,860 --> 00:01:33,950
exceptionalism and Anglophone excess in relation to pay and policy and practice and history.

17
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:40,490
But it's also go substantially beyond that by narrowing the lens from this macro view that we used

18
00:01:41,630 --> 00:01:46,130
around the sociology of prisons to focus in much more detail on what happens behind the prison walls.

19
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:54,590
And it also places at its focus the interaction between prisons and society in which they exist.

20
00:01:55,010 --> 00:02:00,860
So events how events outside the walls impact on practice inside them and vice versa.

21
00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:09,500
Much of the ethnography and qualitative research that take place inside prisons tends to include either staff or prisoners.

22
00:02:10,250 --> 00:02:11,750
I have an outline. Sorry, I'll share that.

23
00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:20,389
Now, this is what I'm doing, but I'm interested not only in how the groups construct themselves individually,

24
00:02:20,390 --> 00:02:26,840
but also how they construct each other and the interaction that takes place between these two groups in total institution.

25
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,460
So both staff and prisoners were interviewed in all the prisons that I visited.

26
00:02:32,180 --> 00:02:37,489
But then I also widen the lens to try to discern what role the outside the walls dynamic have on the practice,

27
00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:41,479
on the inside, those outside the walls variables,

28
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:46,610
if you can call them that, includes current political context, media reporting,

29
00:02:46,940 --> 00:02:51,350
legal and policy context, as well as the role of the elusive public opinion.

30
00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:57,770
So the focus is both in variables inside and outside the prison walls and how they interact in different environments.

31
00:02:58,310 --> 00:03:05,600
And just to complicated a bit further environments in this context includes both different prison designs on security level,

32
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:12,740
so high through to open prisons, as well as different cultural, political, historical and social context in which these prisons exist.

33
00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:23,150
To simplify the aims of this rather large three year project as much as possible, I was basically interested in what makes prisons better or worse.

34
00:03:23,570 --> 00:03:28,250
That's that's the easy explanation. If you frame it around three questions.

35
00:03:28,250 --> 00:03:32,870
I'm interested firstly in what creates a specific prison culture.

36
00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:38,210
Secondly, how can that culture be? How is that culture maintained?

37
00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:46,280
And thirdly, how can that culture be changed? And for this purpose, a comparative study was deemed most appropriate.

38
00:03:47,690 --> 00:03:54,860
So my previous work, which on Crux included six countries and a penal history spanning about 200 plus years for this study,

39
00:03:54,860 --> 00:03:58,999
which I'm doing on my own and it involves semi-structured interviews with staff from prisoners,

40
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:04,020
six countries would be completely impossible to do, so I chose to.

41
00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:10,850
That kind of represents the opposite of the exceptionalism access spectrum, as we used to do in that particular book.

42
00:04:10,850 --> 00:04:20,690
So the first countries Australia proper pronunciation for the simple reason that I live and work there.

43
00:04:20,690 --> 00:04:26,050
Yeah. So it helps with access obviously and knowledge about current events and you know, self-explanatory really.

44
00:04:26,630 --> 00:04:31,010
The second country was Sweden, not only because that's where I'm originally from.

45
00:04:31,790 --> 00:04:38,180
So the accent is all over the place, but but because Sweden finds itself very much at the crossroads when it comes to pain,

46
00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:45,320
a policy in practice moving away from a very strong focus on the the social democratic welfare state approach to more neoliberal one.

47
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:54,440
And I find that that shift is really quite interesting. However, as these things work, after much negotiation with the Swedish prison authorities,

48
00:04:54,710 --> 00:05:05,390
I was denied access on the grounds that my methodology of qualitative interviewing was not deemed scientific enough and not of of of value.

49
00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:09,830
For for there no evidence based practice was very much quantitative.

50
00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:14,660
And, you know, they said if you have a questionnaire, our labelling, you will come back.

51
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:22,490
And I said, I'll talk to you later. And the things that happens in fieldwork, you know, so luckily my Norwegian colleagues,

52
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,940
some who work at the Prison Officer Academy there, also some very great research units.

53
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:36,140
They were very enthusiastic about the projects and the methodology and the questions that I was trying to, to, to ask and answer.

54
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,020
So they helped me negotiate access across the prisons that I needed and the paperwork and so on and so forth.

55
00:05:42,020 --> 00:05:48,500
They were absolutely fantastic. So without them, this would probably this would not have been a comparative project so much as an Australian study.

56
00:05:51,420 --> 00:05:57,030
In Australia, I chose two different states, Victoria and Queensland.

57
00:05:58,500 --> 00:05:59,940
This was for two reasons.

58
00:06:00,750 --> 00:06:08,040
Firstly, that each state and territory in Australia has their own prison system, different laws and regulations and also different cultures.

59
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,460
And this is where the insider perspective comes in two points.

60
00:06:12,090 --> 00:06:16,920
I think for an outsider, someone who's just come to Australia to visit and now I am generalising,

61
00:06:17,790 --> 00:06:23,999
you must like you most likely experience Australian culture as pretty broad and cohesive and maybe not pick up

62
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,350
so much on the nuanced differences between the states and territories once you're in there and you live there.

63
00:06:28,470 --> 00:06:33,990
There are big differences and the people themselves are people who live in Victoria would

64
00:06:33,990 --> 00:06:38,670
never see themselves as a Queenslander and it's like comparing Scotland with West London.

65
00:06:38,670 --> 00:06:40,260
That's, you know, it's a big difference.

66
00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:49,469
So and also for some of the variables in terms of the prisons are fairly similar in comparison to Norway obviously,

67
00:06:49,470 --> 00:06:53,940
but things do change, including legislation but also practices on the inside.

68
00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:58,950
And that kind of nuance helps me find some of those interesting things and more about that later.

69
00:06:59,430 --> 00:07:09,300
The the second reason for including two states apart from numbers but not so much, but mainly for confidentiality and access.

70
00:07:09,930 --> 00:07:17,910
So the Corrective Services in Australia are highly politicised and have strong suspicion towards researcher particular when it comes to prison staff.

71
00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:24,180
And I negotiated with the Corrections in Victoria for about a year and how it is going back and forward.

72
00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:30,450
It's Department Justice and so I did Queensland and so when I publish I can talk about high security in

73
00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:35,760
Australia or low security in Australia without mentioning the names of prisons or even states necessarily.

74
00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:42,540
And that's certainly helped both to get access and both for staff to be much more forthcoming than it would have been otherwise.

75
00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:46,170
And that was something they asked about. They were very concerned about confidentiality.

76
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:54,060
The problem, though, I like the decision to focus on differences between the two states, which is an important analytical tool.

77
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,489
But then you kind of have to gloss over some of that when when you write up the results for reasons of confidentiality.

78
00:07:59,490 --> 00:08:04,980
And it's it raises his own particular challenges that I'm currently working through.

79
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:13,170
But, you know, one challenge at a time. So all in all, I conducted 130 interviews in Australia,

80
00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:20,820
which included seven prisons at all security levels and another 110 interviews at seven prisons in Norway.

81
00:08:21,090 --> 00:08:27,780
Also all the security levels. 50% of the interviews are with staff, the majority of them custodial,

82
00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:32,130
but also supervises education and program staff, administration and psychologists.

83
00:08:32,550 --> 00:08:39,390
The other half of prisoners, as part of the methodology and I'll talk a little bit about in this area shortly,

84
00:08:39,390 --> 00:08:42,990
but I never asked prisoners what they were sentenced for.

85
00:08:43,050 --> 00:08:46,620
They were simply not a question a lot of them told me anyway for a range of reasons.

86
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,450
I'd never asked or Chris was for people who had spent a short time in that particular

87
00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:56,490
prison and people had spent a long time in that prison and in other prisons.

88
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,190
A lot of them are circulated through obviously, and the same request was made in relation to staff.

89
00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:05,160
So new staff and people have been working for some of them for say two years in the system.

90
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:13,950
And to get the range of data, I was not allowed to bring in them a tape recorder in Australia.

91
00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:16,920
Sorry, there was a sun. This is a risk, I'm telling you.

92
00:09:17,410 --> 00:09:23,549
And so I took extensive notes during all interviews there, and then I, you know, topped them up as soon as possible.

93
00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:28,290
Afterwards, just as the convention is in Norway, I was allowed to tape record.

94
00:09:28,290 --> 00:09:32,850
Initially I thought I may not do that. Just to keep the methodology similar is absolutely possible.

95
00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:45,780
It's like I said, the spotlights. But time constraints doing the first batch of people in particular what did five prisons in two and a half weeks?

96
00:09:46,470 --> 00:09:52,560
I don't recommend it. And it was up to ten interviews per day and an hour each.

97
00:09:53,580 --> 00:10:00,390
Again, I don't recommend it. You know, I've been sleeping the last two weeks, but I was very happy to be able to tape record that's here.

98
00:10:01,110 --> 00:10:03,230
But then I shifted. This was in November last year.

99
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,550
Then I went straight back to Australia and started interviewing in January over there without tape recording to take notes.

100
00:10:09,270 --> 00:10:12,600
So I'm still typing those interviews up. That's what I'm currently doing.

101
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:21,660
I did the last batch of interviews in August seven weeks ago in Norway, the last 40 interviews at two high security prisons there.

102
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:28,040
So, you know, a minor disclaimer, because I'm still in the process of transcribing all the Norwegian interviews,

103
00:10:28,050 --> 00:10:30,240
all of the quotes today will be from Australia.

104
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:39,959
But because I did all introduce myself, apart from 14 interviews in Norway where my colleague did, it helped me according to using my head.

105
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,260
So you can just please ask anything. It's all in there.

106
00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:49,770
And I'm happy to to elaborate. Okay methodology.

107
00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:55,829
So it's theoretical framework. It's going to be much shorter people and the framework for Iran.

108
00:10:55,830 --> 00:11:00,990
This study took its inspiration from Sigmund Bauman's work on modernity and the Holocaust.

109
00:11:02,670 --> 00:11:08,610
This work is pretty controversial in Germany, who don't agree with his interpretation and explanation of events.

110
00:11:09,180 --> 00:11:16,350
But it was his writing around the social production of immorality and the concepts or the concept of responsibility towards

111
00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:22,200
the other that I find particularly compelling and in many ways applicable to total institutions in our modern times.

112
00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:26,310
To simplify this as much as possible, which is like a paragraph.

113
00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:38,579
The concept, at least in the way I'm using it, argues that when we feel a social and cultural closeness to an individual or to a group of people,

114
00:11:38,580 --> 00:11:46,110
we tend to have a sense of responsibility towards them and act towards them in a respectful and humane manner.

115
00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:51,570
Yeah, not particularly strange when that distance then becomes larger or too large when

116
00:11:51,570 --> 00:11:57,870
the proximity that in essence encourages more behaviour that has become eroded,

117
00:11:57,990 --> 00:12:02,310
then we are more likely to feel indifferent towards the plight of the other.

118
00:12:03,540 --> 00:12:07,240
The result can be things like school bullying or not giving money to charity.

119
00:12:07,260 --> 00:12:10,740
Yeah, indifference doesn't do much apart from just not caring.

120
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:18,630
Discourse is a deep expression there. But when the version of proximity is coupled with techniques that dehumanise,

121
00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:24,990
that puts the other in a position of being qualitatively different or indeed not seen as human at all.

122
00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:28,740
That's when violence can be inflicted with little more restraint,

123
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:36,570
which can range from assaults and murder to two genocide in a prison as in any other total institution.

124
00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:43,680
I would argue there is an automatic difference a distance between us and them and is obvious between staff and prisoners.

125
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,420
Yeah, it's obviously much more nuanced than that, but that's the the pre-existing distance.

126
00:12:49,230 --> 00:12:58,379
The question is then how can we prevent that distant from becoming too large, prevent that the two groups exist in different, more universes,

127
00:12:58,380 --> 00:13:04,770
if you will, where the humanity of the other has become eroded to the point where abuse becomes a daily, unquestioned routine.

128
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:13,560
This approach provided a framework for thinking about the micro and macro processes that drive,

129
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:21,990
perpetuate or indeed counteract the identification, exclusion and punishment of certain individuals and groups in our societies.

130
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,430
The approach allowed me to identify practical variables within the different

131
00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:30,090
prison environments that can be used to argue for real change behind the walls,

132
00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:33,600
as well as lending a framework for normative theory production.

133
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:45,209
Moving on. So for the key variables that I'll discuss today, I'll just pick two sites, if you will, of of analysis, because the dataset is massive.

134
00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:48,990
And I'm just trying to give you a flavour of how I'm trying to work through this.

135
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:55,710
So the two variables, the first is informal interactions and the second is training indication of prison staff.

136
00:13:57,610 --> 00:14:02,950
And it's important to note that these are multifaceted so they can be indicators of pre-existing

137
00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:09,460
distance driven by outside the walls variables or the specific prison culture variables,

138
00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:15,640
as well as drivers of further erosion of proximity between individuals and groups within the prison.

139
00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:19,750
And finally, the same variables can be drivers for reduced distance,

140
00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:24,460
for the responsive location of social relationships that can result in increased trust,

141
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,970
decreased hostility and violence between groups of individuals.

142
00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:36,940
So a more humane, less harmful prison environment. So each variable is a site of several opposing and competing forces.

143
00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:42,370
Moreover, and just to complicate is a little bit more key variables interact.

144
00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:50,319
For example, the effects of staff wearing uniform differ between prison regimes and in Australia,

145
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,880
but also between countries, depending on all the health variables are doing.

146
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,020
So I'll try to untangle some of these kind of interactions and their meaning.

147
00:14:59,890 --> 00:15:03,310
And, you know, keeping in mind that this is very much a work in progress.

148
00:15:03,310 --> 00:15:07,240
So I'm just scratching the surface, but hopefully not for discussion.

149
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:18,160
So informal interactions, informal interactions, which is activities such as cooking together, eating dinner,

150
00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:23,770
playing board games, playing sports with staff and prisoners, engaging together without being organised,

151
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:30,280
at least theoretically helps increase the social glue between individuals and groups and can assist in

152
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:36,099
breaking down barriers between us and them and help both groups to see the person behind the uniform,

153
00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:45,040
the individual, and not just numbers. However, the frequency and willingness to engage in such activities differ sharply between Australia and Norway,

154
00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:50,260
indicating a significant difference in pre-existing difference between staff and prisoners,

155
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,640
but also perhaps a missed opportunity to reduce the distance in Australian prisons.

156
00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:03,610
But one can't force people to interact in such activities that defeats the purpose in Australian prisons,

157
00:16:03,610 --> 00:16:08,320
though it seems to be enough for most people if the formal interactions are working,

158
00:16:08,530 --> 00:16:13,150
they don't need to do this, you know, cosy welfare stuff as they would see it.

159
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:22,899
But the ones that are around everyday routine, as long as those interactions are respectful and humane,

160
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,880
people seem to be fairly content and in a close relationship is not necessarily wanted.

161
00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:36,759
So not wanting to say asked prisoners and staff if they would engage in an informal activity is also just mentioned with the other group in Norway.

162
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:43,330
The answer was yes, of course, from both groups there was it was just a given component of day to day prison life

163
00:16:44,350 --> 00:16:48,760
and the forms that an important part of the operational model of prisons in Norway,

164
00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:56,020
including dynamic security and media therapy, environmental therapy in Australia.

165
00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:57,970
The answer to same question was no, never.

166
00:16:58,150 --> 00:17:04,600
And people were like what they couldn't believe was even asking them, particularly related to custodial or uniform staff.

167
00:17:05,740 --> 00:17:09,310
And some quotes illustrate this. Yes.

168
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:18,550
So one medium security prison in Australia there visited it had originally been designed in the mid 1990s to allow for these informal interactions.

169
00:17:18,580 --> 00:17:23,170
They, the authorities with the people who designed it thought that that would be useful.

170
00:17:24,670 --> 00:17:31,150
But when interviewing staff in early 2014, the comments were no, no, no, it simply would not happen.

171
00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:35,350
When asked that this particular staff member will play soccer with the inmates,

172
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:39,610
drawing a parallel to Norway, he said he rather put out his own fingernails.

173
00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:48,790
The other staff said the prison was designed for staff and inmates to eat together out in the common areas, out on the wings or in the units.

174
00:17:49,030 --> 00:17:52,599
But as far as I know, this never happened and now this never really happened.

175
00:17:52,600 --> 00:18:00,580
I just wouldn't feel comfortable around that sort of thing. And lastly, not sure why it's gone, but now I would pretty much be unthinkable.

176
00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:07,860
In a couple of high security prisons, staff mentioned that management prohibited such informal interactions,

177
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,790
and one said, we can't even blame who the prisoners management thinks.

178
00:18:11,790 --> 00:18:17,339
It blurs the line. Prisoners felt equally strongly about such interactions,

179
00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:23,940
knowing that to be seen to spend time with staff in this way so way from the very structured interactions,

180
00:18:24,810 --> 00:18:31,620
were quick to give them the name screw lover and place them in danger, ostracised by other prisoners and possibly punished for such transgressions.

181
00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:38,720
Private correctional authorities in Australia are aware that two large distances between the two groups can be harmful.

182
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:45,770
And in the 1990s they introduced the case work model where one officer acts as a personal officer 2 to 3 or four.

183
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:53,060
We ask the same animals in pursuit. Yeah, they used to creep closer, more respectful, in more constructive relationships between the two groups,

184
00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:58,580
trying to change the very toxic culture that had existed in many prisons in the country up until this time.

185
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:05,300
We have several inquests and so on into two serious rights and abuses between the two groups in Australia.

186
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:12,860
The case with officer was a we work closely with his or her prisoners throughout the sentence and assist them throughout the program's application.

187
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,660
You know the story. Yeah, this was not necessarily a welcomed development.

188
00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:25,670
And as one custodial officer told me, in a medium security prison, he said the model was based on what those crazy Swedes were doing.

189
00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:33,590
No offence, like that's fine. I think tensions were good, but perhaps as they said,

190
00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:41,000
the people in town in the head office underestimated their resistance amongst both staff and prisoners to such a move.

191
00:19:42,350 --> 00:19:50,120
One officer who like many others, had worked in Pentridge. I was that notice found in prison in Melbourne, which was well known for his brutality.

192
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,360
Told me about the day when the new case with Morton was brought in.

193
00:19:53,960 --> 00:20:00,650
He said in Pentridge they brought in casework, but we were not being paid any extra for doing that, so it was never going to happen.

194
00:20:01,220 --> 00:20:03,350
But even if we had been paid, it would not have happened.

195
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,180
The reaction from the boss was to start in the door to the outside area with the case files in his hand,

196
00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:14,300
throwing them out on the lawn saying, We're not doing this [INAUDIBLE]. That was standard casework and Pentridge.

197
00:20:15,050 --> 00:20:20,420
Another officer had worked in another old not closed down prison, summarised the development as such.

198
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,250
When case management was introduced in the Old Bailey,

199
00:20:23,610 --> 00:20:29,179
there was a lot of resistance from older staff that had joined the job to turn the key and prisoners not to be their best mate.

200
00:20:29,180 --> 00:20:33,170
And that's how they saw it. But they probably also didn't have the skills to do it.

201
00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:40,130
At least quite a few of them had problems reading and writing and also didn't have the people skills to do it, didn't want to do welfare type work.

202
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:45,920
Since then, things have changed somewhat and there is no more acceptance of the casework model.

203
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:52,220
But due to the large distance between staff and prisoners and the reluctance to change that, the effectiveness of the model has to be questioned.

204
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:59,719
The following quotes illustrate that contradictory stances one staff member mentioned was broken the ice somewhat.

205
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:07,280
Here is the casework when you actually have to talk to them. Indeed, for some prison staff, this was a positive development, a change,

206
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,260
a chance to build report or report, sorry, which they saw as increasing safety for everyone.

207
00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:18,950
For others, it was less positive. Caseworkers create a lot of problems by staff not knowing where the line goes.

208
00:21:19,580 --> 00:21:25,820
It has decreased the respect for prison officers I find humiliating talking to prisoners that they are my equals.

209
00:21:26,450 --> 00:21:28,770
The line is much less clear than it was 20 years ago.

210
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:38,440
This existing hegemonic cultural framework that dictates interaction across group lines becomes even more obvious in relation to new staff.

211
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,470
New officers, many of them keen to engage in case work and to do people work instead of task work.

212
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,510
And they want to do their bit to rehabilitate prisoners and keep the community safe.

213
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:55,779
But within six weeks to six months, they have been completely subsumed in is dominant prison culture where the

214
00:21:55,780 --> 00:22:00,110
distance is very large and you don't have kind of general chats with prisoners.

215
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:06,129
So it's not really changing. The prisons in Australia have become less antagonistic.

216
00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:08,410
However there are, there's less violent.

217
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:14,980
There used to be within staff groups because both of them were fighting within these groups and obviously across them.

218
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:23,050
One prisoner in high security who had been in and out of prisons for 30 years mentioned the trade structure.

219
00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:27,250
I even shook his hand at Christmas. In the old days, I would have punched myself for doing that.

220
00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:34,329
This view was perhaps more common than one would have thought, and not just in high security.

221
00:22:34,330 --> 00:22:39,250
So even in low security in Australia there's almost no informal interaction and

222
00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:44,080
the culture of high security transferred almost unchanged into low security.

223
00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:53,080
So from these rules, prison to the open forms, the interactions, the way they speak about each other is almost the same.

224
00:22:54,850 --> 00:22:59,710
One prisoner and again ask him about the informal interaction. He said, No way, you get your head kicked in.

225
00:23:00,010 --> 00:23:04,900
I feel uncomfortable being in the car with a staff member when going out to work out, working the phones.

226
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,040
I've seen people being punched and they might have shaken the hand of a senior staff member.

227
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,870
I told The Prisoner this Christmas about the model in Norway. So I'll tell you about shortly.

228
00:23:14,110 --> 00:23:18,910
And he was astonished. Say you will get done for that here. A thing you just learned from day one.

229
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,980
Don't talk to staff. And many of these prisoners also worry that they're seen talking to staff,

230
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:30,400
but also talking to mainstream prisoners might talk to prisoners who have previously been in protection,

231
00:23:31,090 --> 00:23:36,309
not sex offenders in the language open prisons, but people who who turn to crime witness, for example.

232
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:40,620
Yeah. If they're seen speaking to these people in open, then get back to high security.

233
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:44,500
For some reason they will be in serious trouble because that vermin will spread very, very quickly.

234
00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:48,510
I also saw that in Norway and they were like, What are you talking about?

235
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,050
It simply doesn't happen. Yep.

236
00:23:53,770 --> 00:24:00,339
So Norway them staff prisoner interaction is at the centre of all prison work dynamics.

237
00:24:00,340 --> 00:24:04,870
Security is the model. Instead of the reliance on static security as it is in Australia,

238
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,480
the way prisoners and staff interact is perhaps a stark is difference between the two countries.

239
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:17,380
There's of course the usual formal interaction as in any prison, but it's the informal ones that can be much more important.

240
00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:25,560
These can consist and often do staff of prisoners cooking food together, often dinner, eating dinner together,

241
00:24:25,570 --> 00:24:32,709
eating lunch together, out on the wings, playing board games, playing football, playing tennis, doing day excursions.

242
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:41,830
And and now playing chess. Chess has become a huge thing in Norway after Magnus Carlsen, the 22 year old, won the world championship last year.

243
00:24:43,030 --> 00:24:52,540
So in the high security prisons I visited now in August, every wing had a chess board and people were playing it like it wasn't just for show.

244
00:24:52,540 --> 00:24:55,920
Yeah. Which says something in mass about the capacity as well.

245
00:24:55,930 --> 00:25:01,210
And also in some of the exercises in many other high security, they have it which is very new.

246
00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:07,660
They have these big rocks are kind of in the ground. They top the top of an external chess in.

247
00:25:07,860 --> 00:25:10,840
So they can play that when they're out in their exercise village, which they which they do.

248
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,080
And I think that also speaks a little bit about how how more porous the prison

249
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,090
walls are in Norway when there's outside culture fairly quickly translated inside.

250
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:29,829
And part of the normalisation principle between which this doesn't happen in Australia, these activities including going on excursions,

251
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:34,570
going, they go walking in the mountains, paddling, canoeing, the very outdoorsy people in Norway.

252
00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:37,450
That happens at all security levels.

253
00:25:37,450 --> 00:25:42,880
Yeah, from high security all the way through to transition prisons, as they call them, which is nothing like justice and prisons here.

254
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,059
But it's also, I think, important to note and this is kind of exceptional Norwegian thing,

255
00:25:50,060 --> 00:25:54,500
these things happen in addition to the normal formal interactions.

256
00:25:54,860 --> 00:25:56,900
So Norway still have the 22 hour lockdown?

257
00:25:56,910 --> 00:26:04,310
Yeah, they still have serious issues with remand prisoners not being let out at all, very little phone contact and so on.

258
00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:08,150
So they're having having to plant them they've just been added to.

259
00:26:08,510 --> 00:26:12,980
So I think if you take away the informal interactions, it's going to look much more like Armstrong in person.

260
00:26:12,990 --> 00:26:19,680
Yeah. Yup.

261
00:26:21,260 --> 00:26:26,110
All good. Sorry.

262
00:26:26,170 --> 00:26:31,470
Maintaining informal interactions in Norway takes a lot of work, which was obviously in those interviews.

263
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:39,640
It doesn't happen automatically. I think the point is that a total institution does not in any way encourage such interaction by itself.

264
00:26:40,090 --> 00:26:44,140
Instead, they have to be designed that to be designed in both of the physical space,

265
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:49,870
but also for from staff and prisoners, all three who make up the the culture in the prison.

266
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:57,820
If you only do one, it won't happen. So this leads me to my second point, which is much sort of work is a staff training.

267
00:26:57,830 --> 00:27:02,739
Yeah. So staff training is one of those multifaceted variables.

268
00:27:02,740 --> 00:27:06,940
It says a lot about pre-existing attitudes towards persons of institutions in any

269
00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:12,640
one country and how they affect both prisoners and staff inside the prisons,

270
00:27:13,210 --> 00:27:19,210
as well as having an impact on day to day life in prisons, having a flow on effect again on things like formal and informal interactions,

271
00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:25,540
attitudes to education and training of prisoners is a huge difference where university cases encourage

272
00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:29,830
at all levels in Norwegian prisons and in Australian prison is discouraged for prison staff.

273
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,740
So again, it's a lot of variables, but I used to very briefly because you might be unaware.

274
00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:41,860
So in Norway, the majority of staff I spoke to have some kind of university education behind them,

275
00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:45,910
and most people do sociology degree psychology and so on and so forth.

276
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:53,890
Before starting or applying to be a prison officer. Many of them also worked in other areas nursing education.

277
00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:03,430
Some has come from from the military, for example, to train the training to be a prison officer in Norway is a two year program at the Academy.

278
00:28:04,750 --> 00:28:09,670
Last year this program received university status, so it's actually now an accredited degree.

279
00:28:10,030 --> 00:28:14,530
And you can also do a third year on top of your two small academically kind of focussed.

280
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:24,639
So the recruits come, they come in with a lot of experience and once they're in the academy, the subjects they study includes criminology,

281
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:30,610
law, psychology, interpersonal skills as well as more traditional topics of Australian self-defence and so on.

282
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,400
The recruits spent the first six months at the academy. The next year they're out in prisons.

283
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,700
But when they dare to do duty two days a week of education.

284
00:28:41,740 --> 00:28:46,330
So you have a supervise, but also a teacher out in the prisons for the final six months.

285
00:28:46,330 --> 00:28:53,610
The bucket, the academy. Norway is one of the world's richest countries with a very low unemployment rate.

286
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:58,930
And last year, the academy took in 300 recruits, but 2000 people applied.

287
00:28:59,620 --> 00:29:04,000
So it's a very it's a popular job people want to do. This is something they're very proud of doing.

288
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:08,170
It's, you know, in Australia, this wouldn't come as a surprise.

289
00:29:08,170 --> 00:29:08,469
Yeah,

290
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:17,290
it's it's 8 to 10 weeks and now in Victoria it's down to four because they need people to come through because it's a big short shortage of staff,

291
00:29:17,290 --> 00:29:20,950
because the prison population is increasing so quickly due to politics.

292
00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:28,479
Different topic. And so not only aren't they well-trained, many of them haven't finished high schools.

293
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:36,820
Some of them are probably reading, writing. They they joined the service because they wants to retire in the country.

294
00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:42,500
But really, those boards, I mean, the job cuts are quite good. Those people need to pay the mortgage.

295
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,030
I worked in a different company, you know, driving a truck, whatever.

296
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:52,390
They failed. I mean, you know, I needed a job. Quite a few of them have been in the in the military.

297
00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:56,110
I spent some time outside it and then want to get back into uniform again.

298
00:29:58,570 --> 00:30:02,920
So the key difference is everyone I spoke to in Norway when I said, why did you choose this job?

299
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:09,370
The first response was, I want to work with people. One person said that in Australia it was all the other reasons there.

300
00:30:09,370 --> 00:30:12,440
They're like, Oh, look around Paris, my pension retirement fund.

301
00:30:13,090 --> 00:30:23,470
I see something very bad at the job. Yeah, but the motivation is different and there's also a prison staff in Norway feel valued.

302
00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:27,310
They unprompted that I love my job, I wouldn't change it for the world.

303
00:30:27,580 --> 00:30:34,090
Whereas in Australia it's like being on the stand. What we do with the front line of work, dangerous people, management don't care about us.

304
00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:40,270
They, you know the society that we live in there and understand what we're doing and they feel undervalued and supported.

305
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,130
Anyway, that's nice. So let's move on to the view from the outside.

306
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,530
So those are the inside. Yeah, but I want to show you some photos basically of different prisons.

307
00:30:49,540 --> 00:30:55,510
They all have something to put this discussion on to and also give you some more information about those.

308
00:30:55,900 --> 00:31:01,960
And the point of doing this is that that's I think for the book that I did with John and other works were done in the area.

309
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,210
Presumes that prisons are. They look very different in the two countries that they.

310
00:31:07,390 --> 00:31:13,390
The point is that they don't. What does difference is happens inside them and they are different for for a range of reasons.

311
00:31:14,170 --> 00:31:22,150
So hopefully this will help restrict. So this is back increase Christian in Norway.

312
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:31,420
Can you see that properly? It's kind of, yeah. To fight water.

313
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:35,109
This is a high security prison. Just the next picture shows you where it's at.

314
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:41,169
This is the west coast of Norway. Riddick is a beautiful obviously when you're inside, you can't see the water.

315
00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:45,100
Yeah, you can only see you can see the mountains on the other side, but you can't see the water.

316
00:31:46,540 --> 00:31:51,840
So it's going to take you back to this work. You've see it more. Does it have, Grace?

317
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:57,790
It doesn't seem to raise a lot. No, no one does not. In Australia, it's only race wire, almost this very few walls.

318
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:03,300
Or in Queenstown this reservoir is soon be editorial. Norway the also in the seconds.

319
00:32:03,570 --> 00:32:10,290
So because this is on the wall in the West Country, as it is called yesterday, this is the high security prison for all prisoners.

320
00:32:10,290 --> 00:32:13,919
So they have when they come in here, this is for the young people, the youth prison.

321
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,030
They're outside the walls. They're coming here, you know.

322
00:32:18,330 --> 00:32:26,600
Hello, welcome area. And these two things are remand interceptions.

323
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:33,270
The remote prisoners are in the same prisons that sentence prisoners in Norway, which they don't do in Australia, for example.

324
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:40,590
The and the reception is, you know, where you arrive, you can spend a couple of days there or a couple of months depending on your mental status.

325
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:47,850
And the point is, I think in remand in particular, as we mentioned, I've been receiving a lot of criticism from the European.

326
00:32:49,290 --> 00:32:55,560
You can be sued for? No. This one specific counts. The ones that do torture investigation, but they don't do torture.

327
00:32:55,570 --> 00:32:57,870
But some people take it. Yes, that's right.

328
00:32:58,350 --> 00:33:08,310
And again, 2023 are on in very small cage exercise yards, have no phone contact, no visits, no news, no nothing is complete isolation.

329
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:10,470
That could be for a few weeks, up to two years.

330
00:33:10,860 --> 00:33:15,450
And there is an enormous amount of fatigue for this as the complete account tracks the exceptions in cases.

331
00:33:15,450 --> 00:33:20,950
Yeah, because he was there in the same prison, so it's not a different location and reception.

332
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:24,569
And then once again, he says, Do you move to this area here, this fence?

333
00:33:24,570 --> 00:33:27,990
Which way you. Yeah, where you're more self-catering.

334
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:31,200
I cook your own food and many units education.

335
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:38,339
You have a library, you have exercise sports on some sofas and the you here is it's it's a it's a

336
00:33:38,340 --> 00:33:42,840
treatment unit that people can self-refer to for drug and alcohol addictions here.

337
00:33:43,620 --> 00:33:48,149
When was the posting to there? And yeah, this one first.

338
00:33:48,150 --> 00:33:52,040
This is the next level up. So you get more freedom, more responsibility. You're on your way, aren't you.

339
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,300
That so this one is here for people with with heroin addictions or ADHD.

340
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:03,450
ADHD on super takes was here is different name but it's speed yeah something to train persons and

341
00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:07,440
obviously doing so so when we come to the treatment unit which is for drug and alcohol addicts,

342
00:34:07,650 --> 00:34:14,820
they very were in lockdown someone who got hold of that hotchpotch of stigma and they had a big party of nights and you know, it's you everyone on.

343
00:34:15,090 --> 00:34:20,520
Well do you had a bit of speed right so so we weren't allowed to interview them that these sorts of things that

344
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:29,310
happens they're can still work and this area here and this area here is also different units for men and women.

345
00:34:29,550 --> 00:34:33,510
So a lot of prisoners in Norway have men and women, same prisons in different wing.

346
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:40,860
So you kind of access to each other. It's what they do socialise and I male times in sport and leisure time since I'm sorry forget condoms

347
00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:47,820
are free Norwegian prisons just in case you wanted and I'm not joking outside this prison it's

348
00:34:47,970 --> 00:34:52,799
it's an open prisons that's where do you transfer to next from that prison you can go into back

349
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:58,050
into the city to to get to university or to school to work during the day and come back in need.

350
00:34:58,590 --> 00:35:02,600
And then you do excursions into walking multisystem. This is high security.

351
00:35:05,470 --> 00:35:07,720
This is the other two, how securities are quite different.

352
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:15,700
And I think that the prisons in Australia in at least in in each state are very, very similar, is a similar culture in how security,

353
00:35:15,790 --> 00:35:21,700
all the prisons across Queensland for example, and the same in Victoria on this is between private and public.

354
00:35:22,060 --> 00:35:26,200
In Norway, every prisons difference is distinct culture.

355
00:35:26,830 --> 00:35:29,870
For every high security prison is every low security prison.

356
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:35,860
So I'm really interested. Is there obviously all the things that plays a role support from that kind of national context,

357
00:35:36,580 --> 00:35:46,120
the one to top left there is still the fact that some prison and this is the the place where they took to the worst of the worst.

358
00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:51,910
Why is the former president. Sorry, it's the table which as a whole is a there's an even for you.

359
00:35:52,960 --> 00:36:00,010
So it's just make you if you know this is to I think rear camera and so in prison they have the worst of the worst.

360
00:36:00,010 --> 00:36:05,830
This is where they sent Breivik. Yeah. After the the bombings and shootings in Norway 2012.

361
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:11,470
Do you know this? Thank you. Yes. This patient, he spent time there.

362
00:36:11,470 --> 00:36:15,210
The thing is, this one here, you can better see this is the main building.

363
00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:19,010
This was the majority of Christians, six. They have 140 for them.

364
00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:24,159
That's a really big prison. And these prisons are also sent to something called Tovar.

365
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:30,469
And this question these. Detention. It's some of these attitudes and symptoms can be maximum 21 years.

366
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:35,210
It's a life sentence and already can't get home that we can add for volume on top of that.

367
00:36:35,450 --> 00:36:43,129
So even if you get a five year sentence plus providing you get sent to either prison includes more observation.

368
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:46,280
Your staff will be around you all the time. They are anyway.

369
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,629
But take notice of everything that you do because you're you're seen as to be very,

370
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:57,500
very dangerous person as just an extra level of surveillance, that surveillance this person and not not static.

371
00:36:57,500 --> 00:37:00,890
They don't have the cameras on. It was just a lot of staff around all the time.

372
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:06,800
So there's no joke about it. This is the fence around it. You can see it barely.

373
00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:10,459
Yeah, it's. It's a fence, like you said. Yeah, that's all there is.

374
00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:15,320
They're now building a second fence around it, but they built a second one in front of the grave.

375
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,360
It was sentenced here presumably to kick journalist out as opposed to keeping people in.

376
00:37:21,110 --> 00:37:25,250
It's never been seen and a need for that. You know, it's a it has a heightened security because of that.

377
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:29,510
The one who seems on the wall is called South Wing.

378
00:37:29,870 --> 00:37:34,249
They want access underneath the wall and the snow went through on the walls and that's what babysits.

379
00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:39,320
This is always the also the management units and for the people who simply can't cope in mainstream they.

380
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:44,790
They end up there, but not that many people in there at the moment of the few attending and his age.

381
00:37:46,110 --> 00:37:54,540
The prison is located northwest of Oslo, but next to it, it's it's it's a it's a six year time in the country and lots of houses around it.

382
00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:59,339
A lot of prison staff live in those houses it's convenient is walk to work so you know

383
00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:02,310
to the west of the west prisoners this way they're talking about themselves as well.

384
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:09,880
Once you've spent enough time in the main building, you're going to load out on daily excursions to go priming canoes.

385
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:16,930
You know, you can't go right. And there's also here, you can't see big greenhouses where they grow flowers and they sell to the public twice a year.

386
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,710
Some of them go out all day and work out all day and then go back inside the fence.

387
00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:26,440
That's high security. You know, one very few escapes, very few incidents.

388
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,690
But it does happen. When it happens. It's usually serious.

389
00:38:28,690 --> 00:38:33,460
It is on the one is from Halden prison was probably heard about this, the one everyone talks about in Norway.

390
00:38:34,330 --> 00:38:39,069
Listen, Times magazine and the world's most humane person. Yeah, it's a nice prison.

391
00:38:39,070 --> 00:38:43,330
Yeah. As far as prisons go. But this is the big thing.

392
00:38:43,450 --> 00:38:48,370
So this picture here with all the trees is from the back side of two of the main units.

393
00:38:48,670 --> 00:38:53,649
There are exercise yards in the area with trees in them and with rocks and things.

394
00:38:53,650 --> 00:38:56,680
And then you have this massive, massive grey wall that you can't see over.

395
00:38:57,610 --> 00:39:03,610
They also have other wooded areas which aren't allowed into Ottawa, and they would like to, but they're not large.

396
00:39:03,730 --> 00:39:06,130
So it's very too stone controlled, very restricted.

397
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:12,820
But again, a lot of staff and a well-trained staff where the aim is to release the prisoners who can be your neighbour.

398
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:18,130
That's the that's the area that fortress is supposed to contain until we have to see.

399
00:39:18,910 --> 00:39:23,920
But you also have these units, huge doors, exercise yards and the same prison where you're in the smaller units.

400
00:39:24,850 --> 00:39:29,270
And these were the ones that are trying, which in winter looks less than.

401
00:39:34,850 --> 00:39:38,930
We think this is Queensland, Australia, about a thousand prisoners.

402
00:39:40,270 --> 00:39:46,160
And the points are quickly gone too quickly. These these units here and these units here are secure.

403
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,060
So you have 50 special. 24, another 50 in each.

404
00:39:50,270 --> 00:39:53,450
Upstairs. Downstairs. A classical panopticon design here.

405
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:58,700
Staff sits behind the glass wall. They don't often go from as they have to prisoner spend.

406
00:39:58,850 --> 00:40:04,370
Are they locked out of the cells during the day for human rights reasons here and

407
00:40:04,370 --> 00:40:07,969
they can spend time out in this cage area is probably the size of this room.

408
00:40:07,970 --> 00:40:14,560
50 people all day. Everyone in one room. Yeah I have been be there and I also know how long do they spend here talking

409
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:20,090
progressed to the next level with some of the independence weeks could be ten years.

410
00:40:20,270 --> 00:40:24,650
Yeah. Some of them do progress to this area here school, residential,

411
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:28,459
a lot of high security in Queensland have this because they abolished or medium

412
00:40:28,460 --> 00:40:32,330
security there is nothing in between residential you cook your own food,

413
00:40:32,330 --> 00:40:37,549
you can look around but you want to do some kind of progression. Most of these people would never go to open prison.

414
00:40:37,550 --> 00:40:42,020
They are simply aren't allowed to too dangerous. So instead tape is going to release them.

415
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:49,870
It makes complete sense if your politician puts. And Austria, Norway.

416
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,710
This is actually a prison belonging to back in prison. The one you saw before is an island.

417
00:40:54,940 --> 00:41:00,290
Have to show this picture because it looks ridiculous. The beautiful. We were here to eat fish and take the boat out to the island.

418
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:08,570
Just a little close up. So this is what it looks like. Prisoners and staff people.

419
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,770
Low security prisoners. They don't wear uniform.

420
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:20,600
Yeah. So when it comes to low security, everyone wear stolen cars. Prisoners don't wear uniforms at any level.

421
00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:29,329
They're all their own clothes in high security. I mean, not, you know, it's just part of the research in isolation.

422
00:41:29,330 --> 00:41:32,479
Yeah. But we don't. We don't want the device to go to work to try to,

423
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:41,360
to to counteract the kind of negative impacts of institutionalisation of prisoners on these islands that can be done to bargain during the day,

424
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,480
to study a work, to go to the train, to sit and then come back here.

425
00:41:45,350 --> 00:41:49,580
Some prisoners who have spent time in high security and then come here.

426
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:55,010
They really appreciate this. Yeah. People who go straight into low security, they hate it.

427
00:41:55,610 --> 00:42:00,380
For them, it's as punitive as high security movie because of deprivation of liberty.

428
00:42:00,410 --> 00:42:07,160
Yeah, same in Australia. So it looks nice, but so this is obviously exceptional.

429
00:42:07,550 --> 00:42:15,640
Norway, this is Paling Creek. You know, this is also an open prison, a low custody prison in Queensland for they have high security, they have a few.

430
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:25,700
These there's not many. This is a farm about 2 hours north west southwest of Brisbane, unbelievably beautiful.

431
00:42:26,180 --> 00:42:30,979
And the mount is called Scenic Rim because it looks like and and that's it.

432
00:42:30,980 --> 00:42:38,570
There's no fence. It's a little walk. Some of the prisoners there in pieces that have fenced in vegetable garden to keep the kangaroos out.

433
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:43,910
Yeah, because it has to keep people in there so they can look exactly the same.

434
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:45,950
It's not so different from the Norwegian procedure.

435
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:52,220
And the difference is the culture inside here, which I said before, translates straight from high security in these big divisions.

436
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,600
I think they're going to have a lot more close cooperation than they do, but they don't enormous they work to change that.

437
00:42:58,620 --> 00:43:01,700
So I'll leave it up and I'll just conclude.

438
00:43:07,450 --> 00:43:12,580
So Christmas himself. And indeed, a lot of staff are very clear about what makes Christmas better or worse.

439
00:43:13,420 --> 00:43:20,660
And it's people and the way they interact. So as mentioned by an Australian president, high security people matter.

440
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,520
The physical environment is less important now.

441
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,420
Another, this time in low security, said doing jail in itself is easy.

442
00:43:28,430 --> 00:43:33,730
It's other people dragging you down. People make the prison and the physical environment doesn't really matter.

443
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,970
Yep. So the point is that under the hegemonic influence of the total institution, such sentiments matter.

444
00:43:42,970 --> 00:43:46,840
Always play out in practice. This is about giving respect.

445
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:53,050
Sorry. So in low security with it, perimeter might consist of a low fence and no fence at all.

446
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,540
Static security's minimal, but the dynamic security has been maximised.

447
00:43:58,540 --> 00:44:04,800
So in low security you have eight musters per day when you count people in in in wages.

448
00:44:04,810 --> 00:44:07,840
I think it's morning and evening, if anything.

449
00:44:08,890 --> 00:44:15,070
And so it's the quality of human interactions that matters, not the quantity.

450
00:44:16,330 --> 00:44:26,410
So what became very obvious in this research, a very stark, very punitive, high security environment can be made to feel better, more humane,

451
00:44:26,740 --> 00:44:34,570
if characterised by such interactions, in the same way which an open prison can be more coldly punitive due to a lack of such interactions.

452
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:42,370
Hence, a large distance is not automatically negative. It depends on the type and form of interaction that takes place across the divide.

453
00:44:43,150 --> 00:44:48,280
But prison staff in both Australia and Norway were very clear what such interactions looks like.

454
00:44:48,820 --> 00:44:52,719
It was characterised by respect. Clear boundaries, consistency.

455
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:56,870
Trust, uncertainty. I'll finish.

456
00:44:57,890 --> 00:44:59,120
Thank you. Excuse.