1
00:00:00,690 --> 00:00:04,860
Good evening, my name's Helen Mountfield and I'm the principal of Mansfield College,

2
00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:13,860
and it's my very great pleasure to welcome you here, at least virtually to Mansfield and to the 2020 Hands Lecture.

3
00:00:13,860 --> 00:00:18,750
Our annual hands lecture is an important moment in the Mansfield year where we

4
00:00:18,750 --> 00:00:23,760
invite a high profile speaker to our academic community often but not always,

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:33,060
someone from the political arena to encourage the sharing of ideas and debate about some of the most pressing issues of our time.

6
00:00:33,060 --> 00:00:38,880
And this evening, Speaker Lord Hague certainly fits the bill for a high profile speaker.

7
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,230
And the next 20 years of Western democracy, which is the subject he's chosen to speak to us about,

8
00:00:43,230 --> 00:00:48,780
certainly fits the description of being a pressing issue of our time.

9
00:00:48,780 --> 00:00:54,000
I'm very grateful to Guy Hands, who is an alumnus of Mansfield College, and his wife Julia,

10
00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:02,250
for founding this lecture and for their long standing and very generous support of our college over so many decades.

11
00:01:02,250 --> 00:01:06,760
This year, Guy is going to say a few words to introduce our speakers,

12
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:18,570
he knows him very well and also some remarks at the end after you've all had the opportunity to ask some questions using the Q&A function.

13
00:01:18,570 --> 00:01:24,630
Now, the Hands lecture is a hot ticket, and in normal times when we're here on site at Mansfield,

14
00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:30,180
invitations have to be reserved for our closest friends and supporters, or at least they get first dibs.

15
00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:34,590
But this year is the first time ever that we've held the hands lecture online.

16
00:01:34,590 --> 00:01:40,860
So we're delighted to be able to open it up as a free and public talk for everybody.

17
00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:51,960
And like the series of public talks that we hold on on Fridays at Mansfield during term time, which is a series that I convened,

18
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:59,280
this is really very emblematic of how Mansfield wants to open its academic community to the world.

19
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:05,850
And our ability this year to adopt that plural and democratic approach in might call it is

20
00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:11,610
one of the silver linings of the dreadful pandemic which we've been living through this year.

21
00:02:11,610 --> 00:02:17,910
And another one, of course, is the pride in being a member of the university that appears to have brought us a

22
00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:23,700
safe and affordable vaccine which can be made available on a not for profit basis,

23
00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:30,060
truly a vaccine for the world. So that's another thing that's been cheering us up this week.

24
00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:36,120
But I am really delighted to welcome as this year's Hands lecture, Speaker William Hague,

25
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:47,310
Lord Hague of Richmond Law take sir for 26 years in the House of Commons and from 1986, I believe, as the baby of the House.

26
00:02:47,310 --> 00:02:56,100
Then until he stood down in 2015, as very much an elder or middle aged statement statesman.

27
00:02:56,100 --> 00:03:00,780
And in that time he said many senior roles, including as leader of the House.

28
00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:07,350
But he's also best known as the leader of the Conservative Party between 1997 and 2001

29
00:03:07,350 --> 00:03:15,990
and as the first secretary of State and Foreign Secretary between 2010 and 2014.

30
00:03:15,990 --> 00:03:20,460
Lord Hague now pursues a wide range of business and charitable activities.

31
00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:23,820
He's the chair of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, his royal foundation,

32
00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:30,050
and he's a very well-known writer of historical biographies and a newspaper columnist.

33
00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:36,050
Now, because this event is online, we're going to structure it as a conversation,

34
00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:42,140
although I hope it will take doing most of the talking rather than a lecture, and I'm going to kick off with questions.

35
00:03:42,140 --> 00:03:51,430
But there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions in the Q&A function before guy hands make some remarks.

36
00:03:51,430 --> 00:03:59,150
I would ask you to note that this event will be recorded. And so that's the way we're going to be doing things this evening.

37
00:03:59,150 --> 00:04:07,430
Before I kick off with some questions or take, I'd like to hand over to guidance hands for his personal introduction remarks.

38
00:04:07,430 --> 00:04:15,470
Guy. Thank you. And thank you, everyone, for joining us today for the annual Hands lecture this year.

39
00:04:15,470 --> 00:04:22,980
The format as head of state is going to be very different, but of course, that's the story of twenty.

40
00:04:22,980 --> 00:04:31,740
My wife, children and I are very grateful that this could happen, and thank you very much, Helen and her team, for making it happen.

41
00:04:31,740 --> 00:04:41,640
Also, thank Zuma wouldn't have known Watson was a year ago, but now it's become sort of a standard vocabulary.

42
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:48,780
It's the 20th anniversary of her involvement with Mansell's Access to Excellence campaign.

43
00:04:48,780 --> 00:04:57,630
Twenty years ago, Julia and I made a promise to Matko Mansfield, the college I myself attended in the 1970s.

44
00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:08,760
We promised Oxford that we would find a way to have as wide as possible get access to the very best higher education that could be offered.

45
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:15,360
And that would occur from attending Mansfield College, Oxford, as entrepreneurs and business people,

46
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:24,060
we believe passionately that a diverse population representing the full makeup of society is essential.

47
00:05:24,060 --> 00:05:33,120
To ensure that the business world is successful, but certainly when you have to divest and see that you get the very best ideas in business,

48
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:41,890
you can't get them having people coming from just one group. We also believe that through diversity, you get the best ideas in politics,

49
00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:54,840
the greatest innovations and the most workable solutions for society as a whole, and you cannot believe that this is more important today than ever.

50
00:05:54,840 --> 00:06:04,480
So 20 years ago, in return for supporting financially, jeden I set an objective for Mancia to achieve.

51
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:13,090
And that was an admission rate of at least seventy five percent of students coming to Mountstuart from state schools back 20 years ago,

52
00:06:13,090 --> 00:06:16,080
that seemed like a complete pipe dream.

53
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:25,650
However, two decades later, an admissions to man still stand at 96 percent, a current first year, yes, being from state schools,

54
00:06:25,650 --> 00:06:32,640
manslaughters has become the poster child of the college's diversity on every level and was ranked in the top five colleges,

55
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:39,880
not degree results in 2019. That's a quite remarkable achievement.

56
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:48,700
And both you and I are very, very proud of Mansell's Cheadle's, I'm thrilled to introduce today Speaker A. William Hague of Richmond,

57
00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:56,300
who's going to discuss with Helen the subject of Western democracy and what the next 20 years will look like.

58
00:06:56,300 --> 00:07:01,130
Then when I first met as students at Oxford in the 70s,

59
00:07:01,130 --> 00:07:11,030
it was a time which saw great political shifts and a time of great uncertainty, similar in many ways to what we're seeing today.

60
00:07:11,030 --> 00:07:18,530
I took it upon myself to make sure that William didn't fall into the wrong branch of the Conservatives when he arrived at Oxford.

61
00:07:18,530 --> 00:07:22,650
I didn't want to develop developing into a non Thatcherite.

62
00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:31,770
Particularly given the Sun cartoon of him appearing as the birthday cake for Mrs. Thatcher's birthday, we got off, we got on very,

63
00:07:31,770 --> 00:07:41,850
very well and start and I made sure that William was introduced to the spices in Indian dishes for my favourite curry house on the county road.

64
00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:46,980
He discovered pretty quickly that lime pickle was not a citrus flavoured cooling

65
00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:53,430
addition to mealtime and that Bombi Ducks had really nothing to do with ducks at all.

66
00:07:53,430 --> 00:08:02,080
William then sold pictures door to door for me, and he was my secretary when I was president of the Oxford University Conservative Station.

67
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:13,990
He also became my tenant in Nelson Street, but even as often as I was his mersa when he was president of the Oxford Union.

68
00:08:13,990 --> 00:08:18,520
He's been a wonderful, supportive friend for over 40 years, been the best man.

69
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:28,360
Mind you, this wedding where he makes a great speech that was both tasteful and funny, the best line at which, according to Julia,

70
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:35,890
is that marriage is a mutual admiration society where one person is always right and the other is the husband.

71
00:08:35,890 --> 00:08:42,550
And he added, Never has this been so right here today to marry a guy.

72
00:08:42,550 --> 00:08:48,620
William is never boring. And I'm sure you have many highlights for us today that I had to.

73
00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:56,050
Over to William. Thank you. Thank you very much, Guy.

74
00:08:56,050 --> 00:09:03,040
And so will you. You said you want to talk about the next 20 years of Western democracy.

75
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:10,240
And I first those are the founding question is why do we care? What why should we value democracy?

76
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,670
Well, thank you, Helen. Hello to everybody listening to us. And just before saying why we should care.

77
00:09:15,670 --> 00:09:21,310
Let me pay tribute to to a guy who's just been told by me I will not retaliate

78
00:09:21,310 --> 00:09:26,490
with a lot of stories about guy at Oxford that would detain us a long time.

79
00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:36,280
I have to say. But I hope it's of some encouragement to students listening to us today that, yes, we met forty one years ago.

80
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:41,020
We're still great friends today. We've been lifelong friends so far anyway.

81
00:09:41,020 --> 00:09:45,670
And that we were we started off as sort of poor students, really.

82
00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:52,540
But Guy has been so successful in his career that he's able to be a benefactor to Oxford

83
00:09:52,540 --> 00:09:58,120
and to support the objectives he was talking about as someone who came to Oxford,

84
00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,130
albeit to a different college from a state school, I very much applaud that work.

85
00:10:03,130 --> 00:10:09,610
And so I pay tribute to Guy and Julia and that that creation of this lecture.

86
00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:15,070
And it's very much in recognition of their efforts that I'm taking part in it today.

87
00:10:15,070 --> 00:10:20,410
Why should we care as your good opening question, Helen, about this?

88
00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:29,200
And we should care because there is a lot of evidence of growing disaffection and disillusionment amongst young people with democracy.

89
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:36,760
The study, carried out internationally for the Centre for the Future of Democracy at Cambridge University,

90
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:43,330
found increasingly negative views and disillusionment with democracy across many parts of the world,

91
00:10:43,330 --> 00:10:53,050
particularly in the English speaking world, and that young people felt that disillusionment with democracy more than older people did.

92
00:10:53,050 --> 00:10:59,560
And it found that when populist leaders were elected, there was some short term relief from that feeling.

93
00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:07,810
But once you're into a second term of a populist leader, you've got a real questioning of the legitimacy of the democratic system.

94
00:11:07,810 --> 00:11:18,430
And we should care because that's disturbing. When democracy is the best form of government, it's not just one of of many to choose from.

95
00:11:18,430 --> 00:11:27,970
It's the only form of government that we found in human civilisation that is compatible with human dignity and human rights,

96
00:11:27,970 --> 00:11:35,650
with a diversity of views that is compatible with the competition between ideas

97
00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:45,400
in a peaceful way rather than through bloodshed and military takeovers or coups.

98
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:53,140
And of course, in our recent history, it has been the system most compatible with prosperity and economic freedom.

99
00:11:53,140 --> 00:12:02,020
Although now China under Xi Jinping is setting out to show you can be the biggest economy in the world without being a democracy,

100
00:12:02,020 --> 00:12:08,830
which is an important challenge, the democratic idea. So it matters for all these reasons that it is.

101
00:12:08,830 --> 00:12:14,050
It's the only form of government we've found that is compatible with the best of human nature.

102
00:12:14,050 --> 00:12:18,540
But there is increasing disillusionment with it today.

103
00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:26,910
And you you say that democracy is the only system of government that's compatible with human dignity.

104
00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:27,810
But of course,

105
00:12:27,810 --> 00:12:38,160
I have been in the not so very distant past governments which have been democratically elected in the sense of elected on the basis of a popular vote,

106
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,440
who have very swiftly set about taking away human dignity.

107
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:49,350
And the obvious example is the Nazi government in Germany in the 1930s.

108
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:56,040
But one might argue about that happening at a lesser level in other places far more recently.

109
00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:01,980
Now, I just wonder what you mean by democracy, because it's quite a contested term at the moment, isn't it?

110
00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:07,830
It is indeed a contested term. And I think this it's the reason you're asking me this is it's an important point to

111
00:13:07,830 --> 00:13:12,720
establish at the outset that democracy can mean different things to different people.

112
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:22,140
And at different times in history, we regard Athens and classical civilisation as the cradle of democracy.

113
00:13:22,140 --> 00:13:26,070
That's where we get the word from democracy.

114
00:13:26,070 --> 00:13:36,930
But in Athenian democracy, where people gathered to deliberate together and come to a collective view about what their city should do,

115
00:13:36,930 --> 00:13:45,840
they're what they were all men and they owned slaves. So it wasn't an idea of democracy that we would cherish today.

116
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,020
And our own democracy is constantly changing and developing.

117
00:13:50,020 --> 00:13:57,300
A hundred years ago, women didn't have the votes and at that time,

118
00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:02,400
Oxford University had had its own members of parliament that had its own special members

119
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,710
of parliament elected by a much smaller number of people than most members of Parliament.

120
00:14:07,710 --> 00:14:16,020
It's always changing. I sit in the House of Lords, which is not democratically elected,

121
00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:21,870
and I was once being advised by some Foreign Office officials to complain to the Russians when I was

122
00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:27,480
on my way to Moscow that their upper house was all appointed by the president and not Democratic.

123
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:34,590
And I said, well, wait a minute. We have an upper house that is a bit like that, and I hope that will change.

124
00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:41,910
I actually believe we should have an elected upper house. I will always happily vote for my own abolition in that sense.

125
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:51,210
So democracy is changing all the time. I think the example you gave of the Nazi takeover in Germany.

126
00:14:51,210 --> 00:14:53,430
Yes. Said that started with a Democratic vote,

127
00:14:53,430 --> 00:15:00,570
but it also represented the collapse of democracy because the way that regime was then able to operate and

128
00:15:00,570 --> 00:15:10,350
do so much to assault human dignity was to to demolish very quickly democratic institutions around them.

129
00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:12,760
But we do have different definitions of democracy.

130
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:19,920
And this is really the point about discussing what happens in the next 20 years, because it will change again.

131
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:28,740
It's not in a fixed form and it will change in a negative direction if we do not do things to push it in a positive direction,

132
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:33,050
which I'm sure is what we will go on to be able to discuss.

133
00:15:33,050 --> 00:15:40,500
Yeah, I mean, we are we're going to go on, I think, to talk about some of the threats to democracy and what we might do about it.

134
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:46,120
But again, I just want to press you a little bit on what you think is a positive direction.

135
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:53,490
And just to frame this, and this is about the future of Western democracy, not British democracy.

136
00:15:53,490 --> 00:16:01,770
But here there are very serious threats or at least verbal threats to the

137
00:16:01,770 --> 00:16:06,960
institutions that have often been held to keep up the institutions of democracy,

138
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:15,180
the judiciary and the civil service, public service broadcaster, the media, the mainstream media, as it's now known.

139
00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:22,920
And I just wonder what you think. Can democracy withstand those threats or if it's going to be an ongoing system in which people are

140
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:29,820
equally valued and have equal dignity must sometimes be constraints on what the majority can do?

141
00:16:29,820 --> 00:16:34,200
Or is it simply one person, one vote? And if you vote to abolish democracy, well, that's your choice.

142
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,890
Certainly, I belong to the school of thought that there are constraints,

143
00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:46,890
that democracy does not just consist of a majority having its way of a 51 percent temporary majority having its way.

144
00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:51,360
Democracy in the United States is, of course, very topical at the moment,

145
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,480
and it was deliberately designed by the founding fathers so that a short term

146
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:04,860
majority or at times any majority actually could necessarily have its way.

147
00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:12,810
That is why they designed the Congress the way they did, where small states have as much power as large states.

148
00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:22,050
So it's not necessarily the majority of the population that are able to have the key decision over legislation.

149
00:17:22,050 --> 00:17:29,610
That's why they designed their electoral college rather than the popular vote, determining who was the president.

150
00:17:29,610 --> 00:17:40,200
And of course, democracy should always take place within a framework of law which is slower to change than just the Democratic views.

151
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:47,070
And so in recent times, the British government could say it was going to prorogue parliament because we

152
00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:54,330
had this great controversy last year in order to achieve its objectives on Brexit.

153
00:17:54,330 --> 00:18:01,650
And the Supreme Court was able to say, no, you cannot actually within the framework of the law and this country,

154
00:18:01,650 --> 00:18:08,190
which you can't alter, you can't alter in sufficient time to change this outcome.

155
00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:11,730
You cannot do that. Parliament has to be able to meet.

156
00:18:11,730 --> 00:18:20,790
So in so many ways, in a in a democracy, we do limit the power of a majority or temporary majority.

157
00:18:20,790 --> 00:18:26,460
And it is very important to do that. Otherwise, we end up with the tyranny of the majority.

158
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:34,470
But the key point when when you ask, you know, what is the I think you are asking what is the what are we really driving at here?

159
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:42,690
And what I want to be able to expand on in our conversation is democracy requires deliberation together.

160
00:18:42,690 --> 00:18:50,490
The virtue of that Athenian gathering, although it had so many faults in the eyes of our eyes today,

161
00:18:50,490 --> 00:19:01,040
was that the citizens not only voted on what Athens should do, but they heard the arguments together and deliberate together.

162
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:07,640
And that by hearing the same arguments together that often change their views.

163
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:15,170
Now that is something we're losing and the way that modern democracy is working.

164
00:19:15,170 --> 00:19:18,620
And of course, I'm happy to expand on that theme.

165
00:19:18,620 --> 00:19:25,250
Yes. Well, let's let let's do that. I mean, just just before we do, you mentioned the prorogation judgement.

166
00:19:25,250 --> 00:19:29,720
And, of course, the reason that the prorogation judgement went the way it was it did was because

167
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,330
the entire unanimous Supreme Court thought that proroguing parliament like

168
00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:39,590
that forestalled the process of deliberation and the parliament had a role in

169
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:44,900
scrutinising whatever form of Brexit the executive chose to bring to it to,

170
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:53,660
um, to get its approval. But that was absolutely decried as an undemocratic use of judicial power.

171
00:19:53,660 --> 00:19:56,930
Some people said this shows we need to put constraints on our judiciary.

172
00:19:56,930 --> 00:20:05,780
And I just wanted you I mean, John Major, in fact, joined that litigation as as an intervener to say that he thought that that was the right approach.

173
00:20:05,780 --> 00:20:06,260
But I just wonder,

174
00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:11,570
do you think that was the right approach or do you think that was judges overstepping their role and going into the political arena or something?

175
00:20:11,570 --> 00:20:17,690
Very controversial. Actually, I agreed with the what the judges said on that.

176
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:25,040
Despite being a former conservative leader and a conservative lord, I do differ from my party.

177
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:31,310
That's another feature of democracy, of course, that people can feel perfectly entitled,

178
00:20:31,310 --> 00:20:39,230
perfectly secure in disagreeing with their party and the government even when they're in the same party.

179
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:47,690
And so I thought the Supreme Court was quite right and the attempt of parliament was a Democratic outrage.

180
00:20:47,690 --> 00:20:53,870
And I think the government in Britain has learnt its lesson over that,

181
00:20:53,870 --> 00:21:01,760
although it also now has such a large majority in parliament, it doesn't have to worry about being in that situation.

182
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,980
But I think for the longer term, governments will have learnt their lesson.

183
00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:13,490
That was an important, timely reassertion of the power of our unwritten constitution.

184
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:22,220
And hopefully we're seeing today in the United States a a reassertion of their written constitution that even though an

185
00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:30,620
incumbent president insists that he has actually won an election where there is no evidence at all that he has won it,

186
00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:39,860
and even though he has been talking to members of his own party about efforts to frustrate the implementation of that result, those party members,

187
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:47,660
while they may be keeping quiet about it a lot of the time, are going along with implementing the law and the functioning of democracy.

188
00:21:47,660 --> 00:21:52,850
So his term is steadily coming to an end. So democracy has a resilience.

189
00:21:52,850 --> 00:22:05,840
This is an optimistic note to note at this point that there's a lot of resilience in the institutions of countries where democracy is in our DNA.

190
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:13,730
And so this is the problems of democracy are not something to panic about, but they are considerable and they do not need attention.

191
00:22:13,730 --> 00:22:19,730
Yeah. So not not not to panic, but you think democracy is under threat?

192
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:23,930
What do you think some of the threats are? You can put them in whatever do you want.

193
00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:30,860
But I mean. Well, if we if we can go through some of them, perhaps in ascending order of importance,

194
00:22:30,860 --> 00:22:42,950
one that I think we have to note that we have to deal with is far from the whole story, is foreign interference today and democracy now.

195
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:52,610
You can voters can hear many messages, read many messages in an election where they cannot be sure where they come from.

196
00:22:52,610 --> 00:22:55,710
This is breaking an important principle of democracy.

197
00:22:55,710 --> 00:23:02,780
In fact, Guy Hands and I were once involved in exposing something of a scandal in a student election in Oxford,

198
00:23:02,780 --> 00:23:07,130
where it would take the whole our whole time to tell you the details,

199
00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:12,860
which was all to do with the absence of an imprint on a piece of election material.

200
00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:18,590
And that's a very important feature of British democracy and our parliamentary elections,

201
00:23:18,590 --> 00:23:24,800
the imprint that you can tell who published and who printed a piece of information.

202
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:33,170
And by that means, if it is libellous, if it is demonstrably untrue, if they are printing so much of it, they are exceeding their spending limits.

203
00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:36,560
You can pursue all these issues.

204
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:45,830
Now, of course, in the age of social media, the imprints are not there and you don't know when that is coming from from Russia.

205
00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:58,250
And then recent efforts by Twitter, for instance, to to clean up against Russian and Chinese bots, Splett spreading disinformation in democratic life.

206
00:23:58,250 --> 00:24:08,840
They ended up closing down. 200000 accounts that were busily doing that, some of which are dedicated to creating division, so,

207
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:15,200
for instance, after a terrorist attack in this country, sending out messages saying retweeted,

208
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:21,620
if you think Islam should be banned and messages to try to create impassioned division

209
00:24:21,620 --> 00:24:29,120
of a particular objective but to destroy political consensus in the UK and elsewhere.

210
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:39,890
So one threat that we have to be fully cognisant of identify and defeat that is an effort to undermine the legitimacy of our elections,

211
00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:50,930
is foreign interference in them, and that requires transparency, requires working with those social media companies.

212
00:24:50,930 --> 00:24:55,700
It requires digital imprints in the future, you know, changing the law.

213
00:24:55,700 --> 00:25:03,290
I think the British government is looking at that so we can identify where information is coming from.

214
00:25:03,290 --> 00:25:08,810
And it requires democratic nations to stand together and calling out and identifying

215
00:25:08,810 --> 00:25:13,670
that sort of behaviour so that people can be aware of it when it is happening.

216
00:25:13,670 --> 00:25:22,820
So that's one that we can sort of that is quite a sort of discrete threat that we can deal with and maybe move on from that.

217
00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:29,150
Yeah, I mean, you've identified, I think, quite clearly why and we can move on, I think, to talk about this,

218
00:25:29,150 --> 00:25:41,480
about why these foreign threats have perhaps been amplified and supercharged by the ways in which we communicate politically at the moment.

219
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:50,060
But it puzzles me that Cold War having ended quite why the Russians and the Chinese,

220
00:25:50,060 --> 00:25:54,020
I suppose, can care so much about destabilising Western democracy.

221
00:25:54,020 --> 00:25:59,120
And is it that just, you know, you're the forum for former foreign secretary.

222
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:04,010
This is just realpolitik as it is. Just doesn't even seem to be ideological.

223
00:26:04,010 --> 00:26:07,670
It's just it is realpolitik. It is.

224
00:26:07,670 --> 00:26:12,950
I when I began as foreign secretary, made huge efforts to improve relations with Russia,

225
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:19,880
the high point of which was when I took President Putin to the judo at the Olympics in London.

226
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:26,990
He and I both being judo enthusiasts and we had such a great time and relations had never been so good.

227
00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:29,900
Well, within a year they were terrible again,

228
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:38,840
because we had fallen out over events in Syria and over Russia's invasion of a neighbouring country and Crimea,

229
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:46,370
not something that we democratic nations regard as an acceptable piece of behaviour.

230
00:26:46,370 --> 00:26:56,930
And President Putin has been on the receiving end of European unity with sanctions against Russia and,

231
00:26:56,930 --> 00:27:01,250
of course, all the disputes over Ukraine, Georgia and so on.

232
00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:10,220
So it's not surprising there is a Russian strategy to weaken the unity of European democracies.

233
00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:18,110
And there have been Russian links identified in the financing of far right political parties across European countries and,

234
00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:23,670
of course, interventions and elections and political discourse of the kinds of describe.

235
00:27:23,670 --> 00:27:30,050
So it is for a reason, which is to weaken the capacity of a rival system,

236
00:27:30,050 --> 00:27:37,710
a democratic system, to impose penalties on Russia and to stand up for itself.

237
00:27:37,710 --> 00:27:46,920
OK, so this is is this a current form of foreign interference is particularly a problem and part

238
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:55,450
of the problem because of the very rapid development of social media and and media discourse,

239
00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:59,880
the kind of polarisation which has developed very, very fast.

240
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:09,180
And I just wonder what you think why you think that is any more threatening than the some of the Daily Mirror to take a sort of,

241
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:13,740
you know, our generation way of looking at who is influencing people's views.

242
00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:17,130
Why does this matter any more than that, that some people read left wing newspapers,

243
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:22,150
some people whose right wing newspaper it is a it is a big problem, actually.

244
00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:30,090
And let me just start with a little story. Last year, I met a man here in Wales who said to me, well,

245
00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:35,920
I voted to leave the European Union because I found out they were going to abolish the queen.

246
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,280
And I said, oh, that's very interesting because, you know,

247
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,640
there may have been many reasons to vote to leave the European Union, but I can assure you that wasn't gonna happen.

248
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,840
In fact, were in in many other countries of Europe.

249
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,250
So don't worry about that. And he said, oh, I wish I'd known that before I should have bumped into before.

250
00:28:55,250 --> 00:28:58,600
But anyway, I voted to leave the EU for that reason.

251
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:05,560
And that was that tells us something important, because when I asked him, well, how did you find out they were going to abolish the Queen?

252
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:17,410
He said, I found out on Facebook and the friends we circulate various opinions, and that's how I found out they were going to abolish the queen.

253
00:29:17,410 --> 00:29:25,600
Now, this is the difference between social media and the newspapers and the broadcast that we relied on in the past,

254
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,100
that he never heard any contradiction of that.

255
00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:36,880
And that wasn't an idea with sufficient credibility that newspapers would have printed it.

256
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:48,700
Apologise my clock in the background, announcing the hour and then A would not have been broadcast at such a ridiculous story on the BBC.

257
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:53,890
But in social media, he thought that was true.

258
00:29:53,890 --> 00:30:00,670
And there is a serious problem of the echo chamber effect in social media.

259
00:30:00,670 --> 00:30:11,890
And so I do think we have to find ways of protecting democracy against that and of actually requiring through regulation,

260
00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:18,940
balance of views, differing points of view to be heard by the same person.

261
00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:25,750
It's very difficult to do this, of course, in social media, but I do think it is essential to do so.

262
00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:32,710
Barack Obama is one of the interviews he gave the other day about his new book was bemoaning the fact

263
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:41,440
that there in the United States now there is no common set of facts about any public situation.

264
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:49,390
He said there is no Walter Cronkite now, the famous news anchorman giving the same perspective to the whole nation about the

265
00:30:49,390 --> 00:30:55,030
assassination of John F. Kennedy or saying to the whole nation in the Vietnam War,

266
00:30:55,030 --> 00:31:00,850
you know, maybe these figures we get from the government are not believable.

267
00:31:00,850 --> 00:31:08,200
And so we lose that common sense of what the facts of the situation are.

268
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:19,560
And we have to find ways to put that right. Yeah, I mean, I really do think that such an enormous difficulty after the referendum campaign, I.

269
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:25,880
By somebody who was a whistle blower for Cambridge Analytica against what we've got against Cambridge Analytica,

270
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:34,700
but one of the issues was that because the capacity and because you cannot see even what you should check,

271
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:43,670
what you would have seen as a Facebook ad or a message last week, you won't see the same thing that deliberately opposing messages could be put out.

272
00:31:43,670 --> 00:31:48,740
So you could put out messages in Asian areas of Birmingham saying, isn't the EU dreadful?

273
00:31:48,740 --> 00:31:54,620
It's a white Christian club. It stops people coming to work and family run Asian owned restaurants,

274
00:31:54,620 --> 00:31:58,700
whereas people from who don't even speak English can come from Eastern Europe and they can come.

275
00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:02,810
And it's not fair. But the different constituency was being put out.

276
00:32:02,810 --> 00:32:07,430
If we leave the EU, we can have no immigration at all. We don't want these people message.

277
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:14,720
So not here it is. Here's my message. I may finesse it depending on who I'm talking to, but here is broadly what I stand for.

278
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,020
But just saying whatever you thought people wanted to hear that would get them to vote for you.

279
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:22,160
And that does seem very corrosive because you no longer have a battle of ideas.

280
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:29,240
But I do wonder what you think we can do about I mean, I just ask you that until 2015, you were an elected politician.

281
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,950
I suppose Facebook's much bigger now than it was then.

282
00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:39,890
But do you does anyone you know from any political party not buy Facebook ads?

283
00:32:39,890 --> 00:32:48,890
Well, they have to do that, of course, in order to in order to compete with each other, although it is open to us to to ban that.

284
00:32:48,890 --> 00:32:56,000
You know, we don't allow television advertising, political television advertising in the UK.

285
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,390
And it is possible to to clamp down on it in social media.

286
00:32:59,390 --> 00:33:00,770
And there are many other ideas.

287
00:33:00,770 --> 00:33:11,060
I'm just looking at my notes here because I have assembled quite a list of things that one could do to change the way social media polarises opinions.

288
00:33:11,060 --> 00:33:20,480
They get quite technical, you know, about changing the actual news feed algorithms on Facebook and Twitter to stop the emergence of

289
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,670
echo chambers because the algorithms actually give people more of what they already agree to,

290
00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:34,040
but often a more extreme version of it and ways of actually giving less attention on social media to super sharers,

291
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:41,660
the people who share thousands of posts who get a then a disproportionate share of influence on social media,

292
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:46,190
that it's entirely in the hands of social media companies to put that right.

293
00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:55,790
But of course, what we're talking about in social media is one aspect of increasing polarisation that is exacerbating polarisation.

294
00:33:55,790 --> 00:34:06,470
That is the bigger the bigger threat. And I wouldn't want to claim that that's all the fault of social media, all the fault of foreign interference.

295
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:15,620
These forces are aggravating a problem that we have anyway, a deeper, longer running problem,

296
00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:21,620
which is the increasing polarisation of people around different identities,

297
00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:30,200
which we've seen very much, and and the way American politics has developed and in our own Brexit debate and in many European countries.

298
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:35,840
And I think that is the that is at the heart of our problem.

299
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,440
There are there are also things we can do about that now.

300
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:49,110
OK, so we can if if politicians feel a power and politicians don't always feel great power in the face of powerful media operators,

301
00:34:49,110 --> 00:34:53,030
I can think of the mainstream media and the powerful operators there and the extent

302
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:59,030
to which politicians of many different colours feel a great desire to humour people.

303
00:34:59,030 --> 00:35:05,210
But this is perhaps supercharged on social media and more atomised.

304
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:09,650
What else do you think is a particular threat to democracy?

305
00:35:09,650 --> 00:35:17,690
Well, the the deep polarisation of society into different identities is undoubtedly a threat.

306
00:35:17,690 --> 00:35:26,510
And this we have been building up over many years ago, and that's illustrated with an anecdote and a personal story rather than abstract ideas.

307
00:35:26,510 --> 00:35:31,100
You know, a guy was talking at the beginning about people coming from state schools to Oxford.

308
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:39,530
And I came to Oxford from rather from the Rabaa Valley in South Yorkshire, coal and steel producing area.

309
00:35:39,530 --> 00:35:43,790
Not many people went to Oxford from there, but of course,

310
00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:51,050
the people who did like me and who went to other universities as well never went back to work and live in the rather valley.

311
00:35:51,050 --> 00:35:56,870
Once we'd been to Oxford and elsewhere, we made our careers and London and globally.

312
00:35:56,870 --> 00:36:03,740
And globalisation has been a wonderful thing for us, for that, for our opportunities and life.

313
00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:12,660
As far as I'm aware, all of my friends who left the wrath of Ali and went to university 1979.

314
00:36:12,660 --> 00:36:19,740
Voted to stay in the European Union, whether they were conservative or liberal or whatever in the referendum,

315
00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:22,920
and all of our friends, as far as I can determine,

316
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:29,550
who didn't go to university and stayed in the rather valley and stayed and lived and worked there for the last 40 years,

317
00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:36,210
they all voted to leave the European Union. So now I'm not saying here who's right and wrong.

318
00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:47,700
It's just the dividing point. And our attitudes, whether we were liberal internationalists or more conservative voters with a small C,

319
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:52,770
was that age 18 and those who went to university and those who didn't.

320
00:36:52,770 --> 00:37:00,480
And I think we have greatly underestimated over the years the effect of that divide and given

321
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:08,130
far too little attention to the education and the status of the other 50 percent in society.

322
00:37:08,130 --> 00:37:11,370
And now we are seeing them the result of that.

323
00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:14,010
And we might see more of it in the wake of the pandemic.

324
00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:22,680
Just to be a little alarming, because I suspect we're on the edge of a wave of innovation, of automation and digitisation in the coming years,

325
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:30,690
which will be marvellous for everybody who has the skills to make the most of that and pretty terrible for those who don't.

326
00:37:30,690 --> 00:37:38,670
So education and skills are attending to the education skills of the other half of the population as a fundamental part,

327
00:37:38,670 --> 00:37:45,790
in my view, of avoiding this long term polarisation of society.

328
00:37:45,790 --> 00:37:52,170
Now, there are many great minds have turned their attention to this in recent times.

329
00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:58,290
Francis Fukuyama, famous commentator in his book on Identity,

330
00:37:58,290 --> 00:38:06,810
that's a very readable book called The Wake Up Call about this year's Pandemic by John Micklethwait,

331
00:38:06,810 --> 00:38:17,430
which all talk about the need to recreate a common identity in Western societies that we are breaking down into different identities.

332
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:22,560
They may be ethnic, they may be cultural in many different ways. They may be political.

333
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:28,140
But we have to find ways of creating within democratic nations more of a common identity.

334
00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:31,710
All of them end up arguing for more national service and that sort of thing.

335
00:38:31,710 --> 00:38:41,730
National community service, not necessarily military service, so that people of many different backgrounds mix together much more.

336
00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:51,330
Now, we will have to think of many effective ideas of that kind if we are to recreate a common identity that is currently being pulled apart.

337
00:38:51,330 --> 00:38:55,920
I'm sorry, that's a very long answer to you. It's very interesting.

338
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:02,970
But I mean, you're talking about hollowing out and the loss of a sense of shared identity.

339
00:39:02,970 --> 00:39:08,150
And I think when you originally talked about the idea of democracy as being deliberative,

340
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:16,770
how many citizens are viewed as being in that discussion and being prepared to share ideas and discourse with people?

341
00:39:16,770 --> 00:39:22,850
I mean, one of the things that happened in when I was growing up, I also went to the same Oxford colleges,

342
00:39:22,850 --> 00:39:28,050
you from a state school from different end of the country, but about five years, six years later.

343
00:39:28,050 --> 00:39:33,300
But one of the things I happened to be when I was growing up was the famous statement by Mrs Thatcher.

344
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:41,140
There's no such thing as societies, as just individual men and women and families. And in a sense, why wouldn't you leave wherever it was?

345
00:39:41,140 --> 00:39:46,170
There aren't very interesting jobs or opportunities and go away and not come back.

346
00:39:46,170 --> 00:39:55,200
What do we do to create that sense of belonging and association of community of some kind?

347
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,560
But one of the questions that's come up, which I can throw in at this stage,

348
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,430
is someone Cronan there saying it was news to him that Oxford University had its own MPs.

349
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:13,710
But what is the role of civil society institutions like universities or churches or trade unions in keeping democracy on track?

350
00:40:13,710 --> 00:40:18,630
So how do we kind of reknit people if given that there are we all going into

351
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:22,170
our echo chambers and given that actually society is becoming more unequal?

352
00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:31,350
And I think it's been for 100 years and in certainly in Europe? Well, there are a couple of of broad ideas here which need to be discussed.

353
00:40:31,350 --> 00:40:40,350
One is localisation giving people a greater say over the local decision making.

354
00:40:40,350 --> 00:40:48,900
There were some efforts to do that in the in the coalition government, at the parish level of a local planning level.

355
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:53,250
But there have also been some important experiments by local authorities.

356
00:40:53,250 --> 00:41:05,490
And here I think it's very interesting what has been done by a Labour Council in Preston in Lancashire to create greater localisation in the sense

357
00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:17,880
of trying within rules of public procurement and tendering rules to ensure that the more of the wealth of the of that area stays in that area,

358
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:24,510
that people choose wherever possible to support local businesses and to use local services.

359
00:41:24,510 --> 00:41:29,730
And they've done that within the confines of the powers of a local authority.

360
00:41:29,730 --> 00:41:32,700
But I think they have achieved some things with that.

361
00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:41,760
And I think that type of policy can give people greater hope that local democracy means something to them.

362
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:51,060
Another important idea which can be at the local or the national level is the citizens assembly and how this is being experimented with.

363
00:41:51,060 --> 00:41:52,410
And in several countries,

364
00:41:52,410 --> 00:42:03,300
President Macron has had has called citizens assemblies together after after the after the riots in France over the last couple of years,

365
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:14,850
Ireland very successfully used a citizen's assembly to explore what change could be made, what might be an acceptable change to its abortion laws,

366
00:42:14,850 --> 00:42:20,160
and historically a very Catholic country, the citizens assembly,

367
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:29,670
or a random but representative group once that came up with a more radical change than political leaders would

368
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:39,270
have suspected and agree that within the assembly and that was the option that was approved then in a referendum.

369
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:48,030
And there was an interesting experiment by, I think, the Constitution units at University College London a few years ago with a citizens assembly

370
00:42:48,030 --> 00:42:54,660
on Brexit of people who made up equally of people who voted for and against Brexit.

371
00:42:54,660 --> 00:43:00,480
But when put together in a room to argue it through together, to deliberate together,

372
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:06,870
rather than just vote against each other in a referendum as to how to implement Brexit,

373
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:11,910
they came up with a reasonable, workable option of doing Brexit.

374
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:21,540
But doing it in a in a fairly soft form with continuing close trade and other ties with the countries of the European Union,

375
00:43:21,540 --> 00:43:28,500
they actually found more of a consensus than our political system has been able to find.

376
00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:31,770
So I'm not suggesting this is the whole answer,

377
00:43:31,770 --> 00:43:42,780
but I do think the hallmarks of the things that are the answer include deliberation and include more localisation so that

378
00:43:42,780 --> 00:43:51,990
democracy is tangible and so that people are working on solutions together rather than taking up entrenched opinions,

379
00:43:51,990 --> 00:44:00,060
entrenched positions against each other, and to then to include the question that that came in,

380
00:44:00,060 --> 00:44:05,220
what is the role of institutions where they all have a role and that churches,

381
00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:13,920
local authorities and others can all play a role in promoting the kinds of things that I've just been talking about?

382
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:21,660
It interesting that you spoke about trying to promote localism within public procurement rules, and of course, you could.

383
00:44:21,660 --> 00:44:29,880
And it is a matter of legislative change or anything else you could put that in as a relevant consideration when a public authority was contracting.

384
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:39,210
But another question I've been asked is one of the problems that has arisen in relation to democracy is trust in the people who are the politicians.

385
00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:48,330
And particularly, for example, in the light of the recent spate of stories about the setting aside of an ordinary public procurement rules because

386
00:44:48,330 --> 00:44:58,350
of the emergency for PPE led to widespread perception that there's been favouring of Bush's conservative party does.

387
00:44:58,350 --> 00:45:00,930
Do you think that that undermines public trust in government,

388
00:45:00,930 --> 00:45:06,960
that perception and the idea that actually democracy damages democracy and the idea of deliberation?

389
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:12,660
Well, it would if that turned out to be true, it would. And that would be quite wrong if that happened.

390
00:45:12,660 --> 00:45:20,010
Frank? I'm five years out of government, so I don't know whether it has, but I would be very disturbed if it had.

391
00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:26,850
It's not surprising, of course, in a crisis well, in a war or a pandemic, that a lot of money is spent in a hurry,

392
00:45:26,850 --> 00:45:37,470
but it certainly shouldn't be spent on the basis of favouritism or political connexions and such allegations and many others,

393
00:45:37,470 --> 00:45:41,250
of course, that we can think of can undermine public trust.

394
00:45:41,250 --> 00:45:45,900
And it is a problem for democracy that.

395
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:52,710
The mature democracies have not coped very well in this pandemic.

396
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:57,210
This just this underlines the fact that we do have a problem.

397
00:45:57,210 --> 00:45:59,580
Of course, many of these societies, like our own,

398
00:45:59,580 --> 00:46:07,620
now have a are in demographic decline or actually most European ones are rather than us are in demographic decline.

399
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:16,240
And they have expensive welfare systems. The state has become very sprawling, very expensive and rather ineffective.

400
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:21,630
It turns out it's rather ineffective at what we really need it to do.

401
00:46:21,630 --> 00:46:29,370
We need the state to keep us safe, to keep us free and democratic societies to keep us educated.

402
00:46:29,370 --> 00:46:39,210
And it's not doing very well at those jobs compared to more recent democracies and Taiwan or in South Korea.

403
00:46:39,210 --> 00:46:44,700
They've done a much better job this year and keeping their citizens safe and free.

404
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:49,140
So it is time to look at the performance of Western democracies.

405
00:46:49,140 --> 00:46:57,330
And one of the reasons the performance has been lacking is lack of trust in government.

406
00:46:57,330 --> 00:47:04,620
There's a higher degree of trust in those countries that have proved more cohesive in a way in the pandemic,

407
00:47:04,620 --> 00:47:11,280
and the people would be more likely to follow the requests and instructions of government.

408
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,030
So those sorts of things that we have been talking about,

409
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:20,910
the whole panoply of these things of resisting foreign interference, of reforming social media,

410
00:47:20,910 --> 00:47:26,940
of ensuring there is a deliberative path to democracy,

411
00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:35,760
of ensuring there is more localisation and decentralisation and democracy are necessary in order to start to build greater trust.

412
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:41,280
Now, one of the questions and please do start to put questions in the Q&A box, which lots of you have.

413
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:48,360
So I'm trying to weave these in as we go. But one of the questions that's been asked is really a counterpoint, I suppose,

414
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:54,120
to the point that you were making about localism, which is that some of the issues which are facing us and let's face it,

415
00:47:54,120 --> 00:48:04,050
the biggest issue that's facing us, climate change and ecological catastrophe are not only bigger than a local area, they're bigger than a nation.

416
00:48:04,050 --> 00:48:09,900
And it's a trust trust in our national democratic systems is breaking down.

417
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:15,690
I think it's fair to say that trust in international systems of governance is even weaker.

418
00:48:15,690 --> 00:48:27,210
So how are we going to capture a level at which people can feel they have some say and some agency in affecting the very big questions that affect us?

419
00:48:27,210 --> 00:48:35,370
It's very difficult, of course. That's why the question is being asked to give it to people at the local level that say over those global events.

420
00:48:35,370 --> 00:48:39,780
Don't forget, of course, there are a lot of things that we can do globally, locally.

421
00:48:39,780 --> 00:48:47,250
Sorry about global issues since the solution does lie and all of us taking actions.

422
00:48:47,250 --> 00:48:53,070
But it also requires, as the question implies, cooperation between governments.

423
00:48:53,070 --> 00:48:59,400
Now, global governance has certainly declined sharply in the last decade.

424
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,660
When you think that when Lehman Brothers collapsed in the global financial crisis,

425
00:49:03,660 --> 00:49:13,320
the first phone call of George W. Bush as president was to Hu Jintao, the president of China, to start coordinating the response.

426
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:23,760
How different is that from the response to the pandemic that just underlines how dramatically global governance has declined?

427
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:29,370
Now here, this is where democracy has to make some compromises,

428
00:49:29,370 --> 00:49:39,660
because in order to deal with those global issues, we do have to work with countries that are not democracies.

429
00:49:39,660 --> 00:49:44,850
We can't stop a future pandemic without working with China.

430
00:49:44,850 --> 00:49:51,540
We can't address climate change. Without that, we can't have worthwhile arms control agreements.

431
00:49:51,540 --> 00:49:59,190
We probably can't stave off some future global financial crisis without working with China.

432
00:49:59,190 --> 00:50:06,030
And so we do have to get used to the idea that we will have sharp differences with authoritarian or totalitarian

433
00:50:06,030 --> 00:50:16,800
systems and we will end up in serious rivalry with them over the future of technology and over issues like Hong Kong.

434
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,150
But at the same time,

435
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:26,820
we have to have a framework of cooperation on those global issues and sit down and talk with people who are not Democrats at all.

436
00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:28,020
And inevitably,

437
00:50:28,020 --> 00:50:37,380
I spent a lot of my time as foreign secretary talking to people who were not at all Democratic and who I wouldn't have wanted to vote for to anything.

438
00:50:37,380 --> 00:50:43,740
But I had to deal with them because you have to have a way of dealing with countries you disagree with.

439
00:50:43,740 --> 00:50:54,550
Yeah. Yeah. But that that you're talking about the relationships, the necessary cooperation between democracies and democracies, of course,

440
00:50:54,550 --> 00:50:58,510
the other thing and we're talking about the future of Western democracy here,

441
00:50:58,510 --> 00:51:04,690
if you Western democracies are going to stay strong, they are going to have to cooperate with one another.

442
00:51:04,690 --> 00:51:09,250
And that's where the U.S. system of sharing sovereignty came into play.

443
00:51:09,250 --> 00:51:09,460
Now,

444
00:51:09,460 --> 00:51:19,280
we've chosen to leave that system and we'll have to work out what our future relationship is going to be with that large bloc of Western democracies.

445
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:28,420
But that means that within our own family of nations, we're going to have to talk about what are the relationships and the cooperation between us.

446
00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:32,560
And that's one of the things that the internal markets bill is discussing.

447
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,130
And I've been asked whether you see Scottish and Welsh nationalism as an

448
00:51:36,130 --> 00:51:43,930
expression of lack of trust in democracy and I suppose localism within the UK.

449
00:51:43,930 --> 00:51:52,150
It's I suppose the answer to that is a little complicated in that it is an expression of distrust in the UK all over.

450
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:56,630
It's also a reassertion of historic loyalties.

451
00:51:56,630 --> 00:52:02,410
It is a feature of the polarisation, really, that I was talking about earlier,

452
00:52:02,410 --> 00:52:08,170
that people are clutching for attaching themselves to a cultural identity

453
00:52:08,170 --> 00:52:15,370
rather than finding some new common identity in the in the modern nation state.

454
00:52:15,370 --> 00:52:24,820
It's not necessarily about localism after I think now in the age of devolution or localism is stronger in England than it

455
00:52:24,820 --> 00:52:32,050
is in Scotland because the Westminster government has gone further and devolving power to the local level not far enough,

456
00:52:32,050 --> 00:52:37,810
many of us would say. But it's gone further in that direction than than Scotland has.

457
00:52:37,810 --> 00:52:47,960
So I see that as part of the polarisation as well as a lack of trust, it's connected to all the things that we have been discussing, I think.

458
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:58,060
OK, and then finally and again, I think it comes back to some of what you were talking about, about deliberation against identity and polarisation.

459
00:52:58,060 --> 00:53:04,070
And someone asked, how much inequality do you think a democracy can survive?

460
00:53:04,070 --> 00:53:11,510
Well, democracies have many levels of inequality, but this is it's very relevant to the point that I was making about education,

461
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:22,430
of course, because you will it will be a major contributor to polarisation and disaffection if people feel economically excluded.

462
00:53:22,430 --> 00:53:30,560
And so I do think inequality has a role in undermining the performance of democracy.

463
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,100
And I just wanted to add, if I may. Hello. The other thing that I've not mentioned,

464
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:40,850
that is the one of the necessary solutions on top of protecting ourselves against foreign interference

465
00:53:40,850 --> 00:53:49,580
and regulating social media and encouraging localisation and mechanisms where we deliberate together.

466
00:53:49,580 --> 00:53:59,630
It is also essential to have leaders who use forbearance, employ forbearance in the use of power,

467
00:53:59,630 --> 00:54:11,960
who themselves recognise the importance of democratic institutions and avoid winner take all situations and how they use democracy here.

468
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:17,660
Obviously, I'm thinking of of President Trump and but one of the one of the worries of both sides

469
00:54:17,660 --> 00:54:23,540
in the American presidential election was that it was a winner take all outcome,

470
00:54:23,540 --> 00:54:29,150
that America might change irrevocably if the other side won.

471
00:54:29,150 --> 00:54:32,480
That was the fear, at least of both sides.

472
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:40,970
There has to be a tolerance of the other side winning and acceptance of that and that not everything will change.

473
00:54:40,970 --> 00:54:50,840
And that depends on the behaviour of the winning side as well. When I lost to Tony Blair in the 2001 election, I was disappointed to lose.

474
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:56,000
But it didn't mean that Britain, as we knew it was coming to an end.

475
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:02,990
It didn't mean the Conservative Party couldn't be back one or two elections later in government, which indeed we were.

476
00:55:02,990 --> 00:55:08,210
It was just part of how democracy functions.

477
00:55:08,210 --> 00:55:15,620
To many more recent political leaders have ramped up the stakes that we're fighting

478
00:55:15,620 --> 00:55:20,460
for in elections to such a degree that people think they can't afford to lose.

479
00:55:20,460 --> 00:55:25,490
And Donald Trump now can't afford to stand aside from the presidency.

480
00:55:25,490 --> 00:55:33,530
So it does require that however many citizens assemblies and locally empowered people we create,

481
00:55:33,530 --> 00:55:38,480
it is very important to have leaders who behave in that way.

482
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:44,690
And dealing with that, the leaders who behave in that way sometimes asked what sort of protections do you

483
00:55:44,690 --> 00:55:51,790
think that we could adopt against increasing populism if we see that the problem?

484
00:55:51,790 --> 00:55:54,760
I think all of the things we've talked about, hopefully,

485
00:55:54,760 --> 00:56:04,900
are that that if people got a more balanced view and more varied view in the media that they are using,

486
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:11,860
and if we were making a great effort as a society to avoid that division into two parts that I was talking about,

487
00:56:11,860 --> 00:56:22,780
well, I think those would be big contributors to defeating the future rise of even more intense populism.

488
00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:30,850
But these things are urgent. And so while democracy is not about to collapse, we do have to attend to it.

489
00:56:30,850 --> 00:56:37,840
It is in a poor state of repair. And now it's like a building that we have to attend to,

490
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:47,650
that we have to refurbish and we have to make sure it's up to date again for the modern world with rules and regulations for the modern world,

491
00:56:47,650 --> 00:56:55,960
which we don't actually have at the moment. All of this is part of resisting a collapse into populism in the future.

492
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:02,050
I'm going to ask you one more question before I hand over to a guy to give us some more remarks.

493
00:57:02,050 --> 00:57:05,230
But I hope a positive note to end on.

494
00:57:05,230 --> 00:57:12,100
Someone's asked you if there's a particular democracy and that you admire at the moment,

495
00:57:12,100 --> 00:57:17,100
which you believe you could learn from someone where you think they're doing things well.

496
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:24,220
Well, we can all learn from each other, can't we, and there are many attractive attributes of British democracy,

497
00:57:24,220 --> 00:57:37,020
but when we think of the pandemic this year, we can particularly learn from countries which have accepted strong scientific advice,

498
00:57:37,020 --> 00:57:43,290
but not been under the illusion they can follow the science and where national,

499
00:57:43,290 --> 00:57:51,030
local and regional leaders have been able to work together in a way based on that scientific advice.

500
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:53,910
If you looked at the major European countries,

501
00:57:53,910 --> 00:58:02,400
you'd have to say Germany was a functioned better than the other big democracies in the face of this pandemic,

502
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,900
although they have many serious problems, as we all do today, with the pandemic.

503
00:58:06,900 --> 00:58:09,870
And then you could point to other countries. I mentioned some of them.

504
00:58:09,870 --> 00:58:21,000
I mentioned Taiwan, for instance, or we could look at New Zealand, which, of course inherited our own concept of democracy,

505
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:32,160
which have used their island advantage, democratic nations that opted for strict use of the advantage of being an island, something that we didn't do.

506
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:37,620
Although Guy is sitting happily in Guernsey, where they have absolutely used the advantage of being.

507
00:58:37,620 --> 00:58:43,200
It's a very small island. And and one final observation.

508
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,740
What do all these countries I'm talking about have in common?

509
00:58:46,740 --> 00:58:55,590
Apart from being democracies, they are all led by women. So maybe that is something we have to learn from.

510
00:58:55,590 --> 00:58:59,670
Thank you. Well, that's a very interesting whole other question.

511
00:58:59,670 --> 00:59:04,320
We could go go down that path, but I'm going to stop now and and before I come back,

512
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:11,400
just to round off and thank you to Guy so I can I apologise to people who invite some fantastic questions.

513
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:17,580
I have been able to fit them all in, but I hope that at least the essence of them has been captured,

514
00:59:17,580 --> 00:59:22,130
most of them a guy you want to contribute your thoughts.

515
00:59:22,130 --> 00:59:28,230
Thank you. And thank you, Helen, and thank you for that really insightful discussion.

516
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:31,500
And thank you to those people who raised some very obvious questions.

517
00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:36,420
And sorry that we couldn't go on all evening, which I'm sure we could have done it.

518
00:59:36,420 --> 00:59:45,660
Democracy today is a very hot topic. Interestingly, democracy in the seventies was a very hot topic.

519
00:59:45,660 --> 01:00:04,200
And the good news is. The 70s finished and we did have some pretty good times, so I'm not negative at all, I'm concerned, but not negative.

520
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:14,190
Many people out there feel negative towards Western democracy today for many, many reasons, some some of which in a lot of which William identified,

521
01:00:14,190 --> 01:00:21,110
he also identified it's very important to remember that democracy takes many different forms.

522
01:00:21,110 --> 01:00:27,270
People often forget. What the advantages of Western democracy actually is.

523
01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:38,820
I think about the Cold War and how for 50 years we were fighting a battle against communism on behalf really of Western democracy,

524
01:00:38,820 --> 01:00:46,870
in the process of that fighting, we really forgot the reasons why we were fighting the battle in the first place.

525
01:00:46,870 --> 01:00:59,640
And to a large extent, winning of that battle. Meant that we didn't have the same belief in defending what we thought was good about democracy.

526
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:10,420
Democracy is a is a very, very good system. It comes with a lot of values that are wonderful values, it's really, really important.

527
01:01:10,420 --> 01:01:18,880
Unfortunately, the polarisation that's occurred, as we have pointed out over the last probably the last 30, 40 years,

528
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:30,470
but it's crept on us very slowly and then over the last 10 years, it's become very obvious, has threatened the form of democracy we've got used to.

529
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:38,520
In the States. We now have the most polarised of all Western democracies.

530
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:49,800
And that polarisation is a huge threat. I believe we have a functioning and engaged democracy is worth saving.

531
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:56,180
But I think to bring democracy back to life. Is going to require.

532
01:01:56,180 --> 01:02:02,540
Very direct representation and participation by many of those it represents.

533
01:02:02,540 --> 01:02:08,300
That doesn't mean quick referendums. It doesn't mean people going on Facebook.

534
01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:15,290
It doesn't mean people putting slogans up in their driveways.

535
01:02:15,290 --> 01:02:19,660
The issues we face today are complex.

536
01:02:19,660 --> 01:02:31,780
However, my view is that the population actually has an amazing ability to understand the complexity of those issues,

537
01:02:31,780 --> 01:02:40,260
if taken out of a system which shouts and screams and doesn't give anyone time to think.

538
01:02:40,260 --> 01:02:49,290
How we get a level of honesty, of communication stays critical system is clearly difficult.

539
01:02:49,290 --> 01:02:56,000
covid has like a bear the consequences and the huge challenges facing Western democracy.

540
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:05,700
When you can't have those discussions, it's taken place at a time when a large part of society doesn't feel represented.

541
01:03:05,700 --> 01:03:12,330
And on the one hand, you can see in countries around the world, most clearly the United States,

542
01:03:12,330 --> 01:03:17,130
where we don't have a consistent policy, which everyone can buy into.

543
01:03:17,130 --> 01:03:26,670
You can't deal with those. You have differences. And literally thousands of people die who there was no reason to die.

544
01:03:26,670 --> 01:03:35,370
However, on the other side, it's also shown and as he points out, this has largely happened in countries which have been run by women.

545
01:03:35,370 --> 01:03:42,220
It's also showed how collectively society can do good.

546
01:03:42,220 --> 01:03:49,900
And we shouldn't forget that within the U.K., there's been a massive community social response that's been largely positive,

547
01:03:49,900 --> 01:03:58,810
people across the country looking out for their neighbours, the inspiring image of Captain Toms determined fundraising for the NHS and changes

548
01:03:58,810 --> 01:04:04,560
occurring in everything from how we run hospitals to how acute a grocery stores.

549
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:11,280
Those ideas and those behaviours come up from the bottom and they've come up where people have felt engaged,

550
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:18,520
and that proves to me that when people are engaged to solve problems, change shouldn't be radical and it can be quick.

551
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:25,800
I see this same businesses the whole time, and I'm sure it's exactly the same in politics.

552
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:32,670
As William said, good democracy is not about those who win the vote, imposing their values on anyone else.

553
01:04:32,670 --> 01:04:42,880
Democracy is about bringing people together. Not just the individuals being voted in, but also collaborating with the losers.

554
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:51,490
To achieve by and for the majority of population children, I have a simple belief, the society that as many people as possible.

555
01:04:51,490 --> 01:04:53,830
Coming up, solutions.

556
01:04:53,830 --> 01:05:03,040
Which achieves general support, but will not just be a happier society, it will also be a more successful and prosperous society.

557
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:09,790
That's why as 20 years ago, we supported Mansfield in going for diversity.

558
01:05:09,790 --> 01:05:20,810
We founded a new charity, Engage Britain. Last year, engaged Christians mission is to build commitment to people power policy.

559
01:05:20,810 --> 01:05:27,320
It exists to ensure that people, communities sit at the heart of finding answers to the challenges facing the UK.

560
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:36,850
It aims to support people learning from each other and working together to develop new ways forward and find solutions to our greater challenges.

561
01:05:36,850 --> 01:05:46,410
In business, all the businesses I've been involved had the answers come not from the people at the top, they come from the people at the bottom.

562
01:05:46,410 --> 01:05:53,070
And they rise to the top and then the people on top can get people can push them through,

563
01:05:53,070 --> 01:05:58,600
but that's they aren't the people who come up to them and therefore drop it in Great Britain is not to come up with the answer.

564
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:09,240
S to make it easier for people who have goodwill will therefore get assistance, even those with differing views, even those with very different views.

565
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:15,720
To not to get together, not just with those like me with but also with those they strongly disagree with.

566
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:20,490
It's simply there to help people engage, not to lecture.

567
01:06:20,490 --> 01:06:28,950
Not to tell them what to think, not to tell them what to do, not to them, but to make it as possible in Britain to engage as many people as possible.

568
01:06:28,950 --> 01:06:38,550
Coming up, the answers. I believe that technology, which has been very negative, can also be positive.

569
01:06:38,550 --> 01:06:45,810
I've got absolutely no idea what decisions can be made by these groups, what policies will emerge.

570
01:06:45,810 --> 01:06:54,870
But what I do know is to make things succeed. You have to bond, you have to involve everyone.

571
01:06:54,870 --> 01:07:00,030
And I believe that this is the path to save Western democracy over the next 20 years.

572
01:07:00,030 --> 01:07:09,270
The path has to be one about how we get the conversation going amongst the majority of people, the so-called silent majority.

573
01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:15,720
If you're interested in learning more about engage and joining the conversation, this is a terrible idea.

574
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:28,130
But I'm going to give it. You can go to engage Britain dot org and sign up to to to learn more, receives the newsletter and get information.

575
01:07:28,130 --> 01:07:33,230
I really, really enjoyed listening to William.

576
01:07:33,230 --> 01:07:40,970
I really, really do believe that saving Western democracy is really, really important.

577
01:07:40,970 --> 01:07:51,650
Which values? I made a promise when I interviewed for Mansfield back in 1977 that if I got in,

578
01:07:51,650 --> 01:07:59,170
I would spend a part of my life trying to find what I described then as the middle way.

579
01:07:59,170 --> 01:08:05,800
I haven't done any of that yet, so I think maybe now after 41 years, it's about time for me to.

580
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:13,810
So I want to thank all of you for joining us today. A huge thanks to William Hughes, thanks to having the entire city put together.

581
01:08:13,810 --> 01:08:19,720
And next year, Julian, I will see as many of you in person as possible.

582
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:29,980
Thank you. Back to you. OK, well, thank you very much, Guy and Julia, for all that you have done and continue to do for Mansfield.

583
01:08:29,980 --> 01:08:40,090
And thank you also on behalf of Mansfield College to William Hague for the very thought provoking and actually inspiring thoughts about

584
01:08:40,090 --> 01:08:53,560
why we can and must come together to protect our democratic societies and the ideas and the conversations we can have within them.

585
01:08:53,560 --> 01:09:03,760
One of the things that this evening has made me feel is how lucky I am to have a job in such a deliberative, deliberative.

586
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:08,230
I still can't say the word and collaborative place.

587
01:09:08,230 --> 01:09:15,360
One of the most special things about Mansfield is our remarkable track record in widening access to higher education.

588
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:23,590
It's been very much supported as guys explained by itself and junior Julia and other kind benefactors.

589
01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:32,200
But it's also part of our nonconformist history. It's in our DNA to question who should be here, why they should be here and what they're learning.

590
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:37,970
And we think that we have evolved that concept in the way that the concept of democracy has evolved.

591
01:09:37,970 --> 01:09:45,730
We are taking very much 21st century view of nonconformity and its very broad sense.

592
01:09:45,730 --> 01:09:54,490
Our students at Mansfield are breaking new ground. Often they're the first in their families to go to university or funded through bursaries.

593
01:09:54,490 --> 01:09:59,380
They share ideas they are questioning and they're brilliant scholars.

594
01:09:59,380 --> 01:10:04,660
And some of them would not have believed that Oxford was a place for them or might not have had the chance to come

595
01:10:04,660 --> 01:10:14,140
here if we hadn't over 20 years developed the ideas that we have about looking for merit in a very broad sense.

596
01:10:14,140 --> 01:10:25,000
And we do believe that that is why Mansfield now rides so high in the Norrington table, which is the rating Oxford has for academic excellence.

597
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:29,860
We are delighted that because of moving this event online,

598
01:10:29,860 --> 01:10:35,290
we have been able to have so many people join the conversation and consider the ideas

599
01:10:35,290 --> 01:10:40,600
and please carry on sharing ideas with us coming and hearing different points of view.

600
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:46,120
If you want to find out more about Mansfield College, you can go to our website.

601
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:52,180
And there is real news. It's a film about Mansfield, some newspaper articles about us,

602
01:10:52,180 --> 01:10:59,410
and many of the wonderful Friday talks which we've held are published there or recently.

603
01:10:59,410 --> 01:11:05,890
You can see the recordings of them will go to the YouTube links for them.

604
01:11:05,890 --> 01:11:11,500
So please do follow us on social media or check out our website for notifications of future talks.

605
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:16,210
This Friday is the final talk of the term and before our months of celebration.

606
01:11:16,210 --> 01:11:26,530
And it's Rishi Dastagir, who's both a brilliant branding consultant and a wonderful poet who will be talking about creativity in

607
01:11:26,530 --> 01:11:34,240
the 21st century and is a marvellous advertisement for the varied ways of being that man's can give.

608
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:39,670
People will help them find their own roots to. Now, just before I close,

609
01:11:39,670 --> 01:11:47,320
I know there are a number of people who have joined us today who are great friends and supporters of Mansfield alumni and others.

610
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:53,910
And I did just want to take this opportunity to thank you for your continued support of our college.

611
01:11:53,910 --> 01:12:01,060
It does seem to be to be part of supporting democratic and plural discourse.

612
01:12:01,060 --> 01:12:05,260
Mansfield, frankly, wouldn't be here without you, and we are very grateful.

613
01:12:05,260 --> 01:12:14,119
So thank you, guys. Julia. Thank you, William, and thank you to everyone who's here tonight.