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The Future of Business podcast,
where we take you to discuss with us today whether the diverse range of sectors and stories he and the Oxford MBA cohort,
and how these people and stories will shape the future of business.
My name is Andrea, and today it's my privilege to be hosting Bellevue and handle to discuss the future of branding.
Hello. How are you doing today? Hi, Andrés, I'm great. Thank you for having me.
It's my pleasure. Alejandro and I are both part of the current MBA cohort, and we are also both part of thanked Hughes College in Oxford.
Why don't you briefly explain to people, what are colleges and what you like about you?
Will a college is basically kind of like your residential hub, at least for us grad students.
And I mean, it's I think the equivalent would be like a Harry Potter house, I'd say.
But it's basically, you know, your family outside of the school, a place where you go to the dining hall,
a place where you go to the library to meet people outside of of your discipline.
And we are blessed with beautiful garden sets.
And he's like probably one of the best gardens that are here in the university.
Absolutely. Thank you. It's really cool gardens and also thank you.
It's home to two cats called up about flapjack and prefers the biscuits.
That's correct. Fat cats are very much a big part of my heart here in Oxford.
But let's get away from cats. That's not why we're here to discuss today, but maybe instead of me talk about cats,
you can talk a little bit about the work you're doing and why it matters to you.
Right. So I well, I come from a from a branding background.
And for those who don't know what brand is or have like a very ambiguous idea of my brand is basically branding is, you know, the soul of a company.
You know, your brand is the soul of a company. It's not a logo. It's not just the name of a company.
It's not just the colour palette and you know, things that look nice and shiny.
It's much more than that. And it's the essence.
It's the soul of a company and basically what differentiates you from your rivals or, you know, all their companies out there?
You know, you already talked about how the brand is the heart, the soul of the company, really?
And I feel like if I was an accountant a question, he would talk about how the balance sheets of the soul of the company.
But clearly, there's more to this than and perfect personal likeness.
And I think the good thing about Princess, the death so visible. So I think in theory, a brand of what a consumer makes out of a company.
So you could even argue that the brand belongs much more to the people than it belongs to the company, because at the end of the day,
they are the ones who kind of remember at a format or perceive it, and it's clearly something that's meant for the public rather than internally.
And at the same time, what I sometimes struggle with a little bit of just like the difference between
what is that a brand is compared to the product or the organisation behind it.
Can you maybe very briefly kind of help us separate products on brand here?
Absolutely. And I think. And let me start by saying that there are not different things and I'll tell you why.
But first, I think it's funny that you mention accounting because I think that's one of the most difficult aspects of our brand.
It's really how you quantify it. And it's been a challenge, right?
Because there's no direct kind of measure or KPI about like, you know,
how many brands tons you know, does your company have or, you know, reports every year.
But one of the best ways to measure it, or at least kind of indirectly measure it,
and you've mentioned that is will how visible they said, you know how relevant it is to consumers.
Now I will say that yes, you know, consumers usually get the most out of the brand,
but let's not forget, that's also for the employers and for people that work in the company.
Right. So we when I, you know, I was lucky to work for a very great branding agencies and one of the phrases that we use to to use all the time is.
Brown needs to help outsiders to buy and insiders to believe so you have to always pay attention to those two groups, right?
Yes, consumers get most of it and they cherish it.
But also employers, because at the end of the day, they're working for that brand.
Let me let me just try to be kept this address as we the brand is supposed to help outsiders to buy and instead us to believe correct.
That does sound like something I've had to see.
But agency will tell their clients, but in a good way, the kind of thumbs up, the power and the relevance of this,
and clearly the more competitive the market is looking for talent,
especially we looked up like banking tech developers, the more relevant it gets added more.
These companies are investing in talent in branding agencies to look after something like employer branding and personal branding.
When you look at it, what branding does?
So we discussed a little bit. While branding is important as some of the company,
we talked about the differences it had to product and the role it plays for both internal relations and consumers, excellent people.
Can you talk a little bit about where branding is heading?
What is what is the meaning of branding today compared to, let's say, I don't know, 10 years ago?
And what is the next big challenge that branding has to solve for companies worldwide?
Sure. And I'll, you know,
I think I'll start by talking about the difference between brand and product because it's really relevant to actually where brand is headed.
Originally, you branded something because you wanted to distinguish the product from another product range.
So, you know, for example, a brand that comes to mind that really started to do this was dive, you know?
Yeah. Back in the day, you know, they wanted to show that their soap was way better than, you know,
the soaped offered by the competitor because it was made with, you know, milk and nourishment and that so.
But if you think about it, it was a one way thing, as in what I was just marking something as mine.
It was a very kind of possessive type of brand and it evolved, you know, throughout the years that possession,
you know, that or original meaning of brand evolved into a dialogue, you know, between the consumer and the company.
And now more. It's more like a forum because you're not only having a discussion with the consumer.
Yeah, it's important, but because we live in a super connected, hyperconnected,
hyper visible world and brands need to be paying attention to many stakeholders.
And that's why they're they need. They need to host a forum.
And I think that's, you know, that's what that's something that it's going to keep evolving.
You know, Brands doesn't matter what type, they need to be truly embedded into what's going on in the world.
They need to be finally aware of the context of the social, political, economic status of the world and then react to it.
Let's let's not be staved off for a moment and try to get more concrete about some of these ideas, some of these ideas.
So we can kind of like the you touching on the which and the meaning of planning something where you mark your own position.
But so people know like that it's called brand branding, because back in the days when people had sheep or cattle,
they would take some sort of mark and heat it up and push it into the animal side to literally brand
their name or their mark into them to make sure that people knew that was their cow or their sheep.
I'm pretty sure it's not being done anymore, at least not by any of the brands we like.
But I'm sure somewhere somebody with not caring about how the consumer perceives them, if they the marketing their animals, animals that way.
And you talked a little bit about how how in the beginning it's quite easy to be like, I just want to present my soap.
And I think that's something interesting talking about how and how now it's not only a dialogue, but it's even a forum.
And that sounds quite abstract. And I wondered if you could help us kind of kind of drilled us down a little bit and be more concrete about this.
So when I think of Dive. I had no idea it involved in these soaps,
but I noticed brands so clearly in and out for these advertisements that are celebrating diversity and bigger woman and different skin colours.
And I remember these campaigns where people are like throwing like a girl, and we're kind of celebrating what it means to be a woman.
And I see how this is talking to us and to our society, but that I don't see the foam aspect of it.
Can you try to kind of take this brand as an example dive and help us understand a little bit what it means to be a father?
And maybe that's a concrete example of something to kind of pin this down to make it less abstract for us?
Sure. I think I mean it dive is a great example because.
Obviously. Well, I mean, it's it's a brand that's been around forever, right, and they've seen an evolution, you know, throughout the years.
So yes, first it was about differentiation. And then, you know, establish a relationship with this customer is listening to them their needs.
But it really became a forum when they started to really push the the essence of real beauty, which became their brand essence, right?
Real beauty doesn't matter the way you look. It doesn't matter the colour of your skin, your curves, your shape, and you're beautiful.
And they were in to break stereotypes or not, not stereotypes,
but to kind of like break with the status quo of showing just like the perfect body type.
Yeah, every time, right? Celebrating realness and it became a forum because it was not just the people buying the soap.
They were like happy and felt identified with the brand with love.
But it sparked a whole conversation around real bodies, real beauty about women empowerment.
And that is why I truly believe that brands have a higher duty, if you will,
to to make the world a better place to just the not just sell soap, but by spreading a message, spreading a purpose and acting on it.
They can really make a difference in people's lives. Spreading a message influencing people, sparking a perception that is all still one way.
How does this come back to the brand?
Because what you describe, I think what you have in mind is some sort of interaction, some sort of multi multi side that process going on.
Can you talk a little bit about how building a brand and being in dialogue with your consumers is then coming back to the company, to the product?
Well, because social media has been, I think, the key to make that forum happen as well.
Right. So it's not just broadcasting the message,
but also paying attention to what the users and notice how I didn't say only the customer or the consumer, but users,
because they can interact with the brand and not every brand is good at listening to, you know,
what happens in social media, but the majority are had become very attuned to do it right.
They listen, they take, you know, whatever they're saying on Twitter and Facebook or on Instagram, they take it into account.
Like what? Like how? How like, for example, we were we were, you know, not long ago, Kentucky Fried Chicken,
for example, had a really is a real issue with chicken in the United Kingdom.
And obviously people were angry and they, you know, they took it to the social media to kind of like vent about how they,
you know, chicken restaurant didn't have chicken, right? So Kentucky Fried Chicken, obviously aware of the disaster,
embraced that conversation and launched a campaign that was incredibly successful in leading the scramble.
The letters of the logo spelled something that, well, you know,
kind of shows that they they they didn't do a good job, you know, with their logistics.
But it was a genuine apology, and they were able to not only listen to the people but own that conversation and basically change,
you know, change the topic into into,
you know, into that saying to them, like more of a human situation where like, you know, like, yes, we made a mistake, but we're trying our best.
Yeah. So Kentucky Fried Chicken, that seemed to have some delivery issues with chicken,
I guess there was a supplier involved to cut will cut negotiations off at some point and stop delivering.
So they ended up closing auto restaurants and then people complain and then they rebrand their logo to say, f c k.
Yes, that is the word. So we'll be allowed to be on here.
That's why I was the f c k, and then it became a huge thing and set about a huge media pass.
And it's kind of clear how this branding exercise helped them reach more people and be very
visible in the society and also probably which say and it was kind of clear the specific point.
How did the initial spark of this campaign was not coming from the brand, but from the consumer?
Exactly. I think that's something that I can kind of calibrate with quite easily.
Can you maybe talk a little bit about how branding is going to evolve in the next couple of years and what kind of the future of branding it?
Well, for four ones, I like to see the word brand almost disappear.
I don't like the word brand, but instead I actually like the word identity.
I know that the idea of identity of corporate identity was used in around the 60s, and it was a very.
Additional way of brand testing, like I'm going to stick a logo everywhere.
Stick a logo in the soap dispensers in the bathroom, right? And that, you know, that was basically the essence of corporate identity.
You basically want to make sure that everybody is constantly aware that you are in a company's environment right now.
Good. But I like the word identity.
Perhaps you get rid of the corporate because I mean, you don't need to be a corporation to have a brand brand identity.
You could be, you know, a small business, a large business. You know, it could be a personal identity, personal identity.
And that is exactly why I think it's important because an identity is not just the way you look, but it's the way you behave.
It's the way you interact with people. It's the way you react. You have a point of view.
It is a whole package. So I like to see businesses more talk more about their identity as opposed to us, their brand, because brand still has that,
you know, that kind of like legacy meaning of just, you know, marking your things with a hot iron, you know?
So how would it look like if a company or an organisation is evolving their identity over the next couple of years?
Right. So I think, first of all, I think they need to be real.
I don't want to say, Well, yeah, let me let me one packet, you know, like and and not necessarily woke, right?
Because and I'll talk, I'll talk. I'll tell you about the difference. I think they need to be aware of their capabilities.
So for the longest time brands where they were only concerned about what they did and how they did it right, but not really about why they did it.
We have a massive explosion of company purpose and purpose driven organisations, and some of them did very well.
You know, Unilever was one of the first ones to kind of have a really strong purpose that to this day,
you know, really distinguishes then from their competition from Nestle, for example, continue.
And then and then, for example, Patagonia, another incredible, purpose driven organisation, right?
Everybody kind of lives by that purpose, including the founder employees, even the customers.
Right? Yeah. But I think it became like a trendy thing to just do.
And if you were any company, they were just like, Oh, we're going to save the world.
And he'd lost a little bit of authenticity, lost kind of like the genuine aspect of how to get it back.
You know, that seems to be like a like a core issue here that that I feel like what you describing is a little bit saying that at the moment,
we are in a moment of time where brands a purpose.
A company has that somewhat linked to saving the world, and everybody is kind of doing the same thing with us.
And I think we can see that. I think if we kind of reflect on the brands we know,
I do think that there's a clear pattern emerging then on people using the same set of vision mission statements
of the same sort of value to kind of empower people and save the environment and save the penguins and all.
And I think what you're talking about is now that we need to get more authentic, that's more specific in forming our identity.
Can you maybe try to try to kind of bundle up like one example of of a company that is or is
about who has kind of come away from a purpose driven way to general brand to a more specific,
authentic identity that is more sustainable and more doable in this next period of OK?
The one that comes to mind, to be honest, is Spotify. I mean, they just really have like a good I mean, they are changing the world, right?
I mean, for their purposes and does and doesn't really establish like we are changing the world by every song you listen because that's fluffy.
And like, you know, like if you wear a massive energy corporation and you know,
you actually have the power to change the world and change the world at large,
the whole ecosystem, the whole environment, sure, you know, you can talk about it and hopefully act on it.
But if you are Spotify or if you are, I don't know any other brand that does deodorant, right?
It's like, stay true to what you do. And if you really want to inject a purpose, you know, really make it tangible to people, you know.
You know, maybe, you know, if I'm going to listen to music, if I'm going to listen to music, I just want to have a good time.
I just want to remember things. I just want to dream, right? So.
And Spotify is very well, very, very well aware of the power of transportation in terms of listening to music takes you places, right?
So the purpose is very small. And then you know about connecting with others through music.
That's great. People believe that. But if suddenly you start solving the order and thinking that I'm going to fly or that I am going to suddenly,
you know, cure every single possible disease with my deodorant, then yeah, sure.
I mean, you're well-intentioned, but like, do I really believe that?
So there needs to be a match between, you know, between what you are and what you.
Do really and then also, you know why you really can accomplish it.
Because otherwise it's just empty words and we see a lot of empty words these days.
And yeah, and I think that Spotify is an incredibly powerful example because there's few
brands out there right now who have as much power in raising prices as Spotify.
If we were talk, I was running on the other day.
If Spotify was to write that price for one year per month, would I leave for two years for three euro?
And it's astonishing and frankly, that frightening of how far they could go.
And if I if you also have to question who else has that strong impact of heard who has that strong of a connexion with us,
that they're able to change the price point, they would still stick with them?
Few things come to mind. Very few things, maybe a club stalwarts, but my dad doesn't.
I can't get rid of it. But apparently I really think that Spotify is a really great example.
Also, given the fact that now they are competing with major tech companies are doing, they're doing really, really quite well.
I kind of want to stress test a little bit OK, because we talked a little bit about how product and brand are different and of Spotify.
One could argue that it's not a brand of management, it's just the physical product trying to keep this brief.
Can you can you talk a little bit? Let me let me put out like a comment, like on a confrontational statement and you debated.
All right. Briefly, what a Spotify would be changing their brand identity next month to buy dance music, and it would still have on your playlist.
It was really amazing product instead of recommendations of a wrap, you know the stuff they do every year, but it would be spared us anymore.
It wouldn't be green anymore and wouldn't have a different name thinking why?
Well, why is it not the same thing? Do you know something that we don't know and I don't know.
Inside your book, but if I know that is, that is a that is a very, you know, that is a very powerful statement.
I'm going to go ahead and say that people will complain. People adopt, you know, people adopt.
I mean, and if I if I maybe go come back with something a little bit more controversial,
but people were up in arms because Facebook changed their name.
You know, the Facebook parent company changed their name to Metta, right? People were like, Well, that's not the solution.
You know, that's true. Yeah, it's not the solution.
But it eventually becomes effective because people have to get used to it just by the sheer act of that, they have to get used to it.
They can complain, but they can't do anything about it. Will they be, you know, hard feelings around it?
Yeah, sure.
Now, obviously, that Facebook made a name change is trickier because of obviously all of the things that have happened around that company.
But in terms of Spotify, if tomorrow you know, Spotify becomes, you know, I don't know if something random like music dot com,
I don't know, you know, something silly, or perhaps people will be like, Whoa, and I don't see the point of that.
But eventually they'll probably get used to it because it is a phenomenal service.
But that's why I need to remind you that the brand is not just a name.
It's the whole experience. Yeah, I agree. I feel like I feel like you made a good point here.
I think it speaks to both the holistic ness of a brand as well as its limitations.
Evolve Sean O brand is supposed to be much more than just a colour code,
and it speaks much more to like how we perceive love holistically and at the same time,
how our the end of the day what companies do is about how to improve allows us
to resolve challenges that we are faced with independently from their name.
And I do want to drop our funny, funny anecdote here with Facebook changing the name the fan,
Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google became the manga. You guys can go through this by yourself.
You've got to figure it out.
Oh, Fang became manga and how you feel about that brand now, which is in some ways much more fitting than Fang, if you think.
But you know, I'm not sure if manga fans would agree, but I do know what you mean.
The point is, and you know, to reiterate, the brand is more than the name brand is more than the logo.
You know, brand is much more than that. It's very holistic thing, you know, it touches upon the product in the service of,
you know, the office space, the culture, the experience and even the innovation, right?
And it's very holistic and that's how you need to think about it. We're looking at this big world of branding in your time here in Oxford.
What is it you want to do with the MBA in this brand?
And what can you? Talk a little bit about how the NBA fits into your career and what you're getting out from from this in the branding context.
Well, you know, because I think brands are not created nor destroyed.
And I am a brand. You are a brand, right? So I think right now I'm trying to rediscover what my brand is.
You know, you can't invent yourself. You know, it's really difficult.
And if I take that analogy to corporations like it's also really difficult to vent out of something off the air.
So you just really need to discover what is it exactly that you want to do next?
And I, for me in the NBA, I think I'm using kind of like my branding sensibilities to find my path.
You know, talking to people listening, you know, having a forum, you know, with many inputs,
many new experiences, and that's going to help me, you know, recheck, revamp.
And hopefully, you know what my branding to where I need to be and where I want to be.
That is nothing short, but a wonderful way to look at an NBA and opportunity it presents to you and your career you're doing.
And with that, I'm left to thank you very much for taking the time out. Come.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your and your brand with us and profiting from your
likeness here and hopefully from your reach as well and to all of you for listening.
Thank you so much for hanging out with us for about 25 minutes. And I hope you will hear us again at the Future of Business podcast.
Thank you. Thank you. Lovely to be here.