1
00:00:00,540 --> 00:00:07,950
The future of business is responsible for gross negligence, at risk of crecimiento less and less as conscious co-mingling of growth and impact.

2
00:00:08,040 --> 00:00:15,329
So either way, like they seem be a residual business, a constantly is concerned that they are part of a mission we carry or take over.

3
00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:22,140
The future of business is intentional and transparent. The two comes from the Dragon's article neo-Nazi from Kenneth Career tweeted

4
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,640
Welcome to the Future of Business podcast produced by Oxford MBA students.

5
00:00:27,390 --> 00:00:30,090
My name is Angus and I'll be your host for today's episode.

6
00:00:31,170 --> 00:00:36,090
Today, we will hear what it is like to work in the impact consulting space for my fellow classmates.

7
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,440
Chris, welcome to the podcast. Chris. Thank you for having me.

8
00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:47,220
I'm very excited to be here. So we're going to start with a question that we ask all of our guests on the podcast.

9
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,330
So what is a preconception that you may have had before coming to Oxford or the business school that has since changed?

10
00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:05,090
That is a tough one. I will say that I did a bit of research before coming here, so I didn't have a lot of preconception.

11
00:01:05,130 --> 00:01:14,460
But I, I think coming into this MBA program and the main reason why I chose it was that I knew that it has a strong focus on impact.

12
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:24,510
And I had a sense that a proportion of my classmates would be sort of people who are interested in having purpose driven careers.

13
00:01:25,290 --> 00:01:33,720
And I would say coming here, I was surprised the extent to which that is actually true and the number of students who,

14
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:39,390
based on my interactions, seem to really care a lot about having a purpose driven career.

15
00:01:39,630 --> 00:01:46,950
And so I will say I sort of expected it, but I didn't realise to what extent it will be true when I got here.

16
00:01:47,220 --> 00:01:57,420
And it's been so inspiring learning about what my classmates did pre MBA or they what they want to do post the MBA and just seeing people

17
00:01:57,780 --> 00:02:08,180
really getting engaged in different co-curricular activities across Oxford that sort of have a tie back to this question or point on impact.

18
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,460
So yeah, awesome. And of course you have a background in impact.

19
00:02:15,110 --> 00:02:19,860
I don't know if you could maybe share a bit about your experience, what you studied at university,

20
00:02:19,860 --> 00:02:25,830
how that led you to where you are today and of course, the impact experience that you've had back in Africa.

21
00:02:27,020 --> 00:02:36,150
Yeah. So I sort of born and raised in Kenya. I went to high school there and then I had the opportunity to go study undergrad in the U.S.

22
00:02:36,170 --> 00:02:42,350
And so I studied economics at Harvard with a bit of focus on international development.

23
00:02:42,740 --> 00:02:52,010
And so I knew that post my undergraduate degree, I did want to explore working within the development space.

24
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:57,320
And I ended up coming across this firm called Dahlberg.

25
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:08,629
That essentially is a strategy consulting firm that mostly works with what we've traditionally called development clients or social impact clients,

26
00:03:08,630 --> 00:03:17,540
ranging from governments, different government agencies, bilateral, multilateral foundations.

27
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:27,980
And so we essentially advise this institutions on the design, the strategy,

28
00:03:27,980 --> 00:03:38,600
evaluation of different development programs with a strong focus on sub-Saharan Africa as well as Asia, and a bit of work in LatAm.

29
00:03:39,410 --> 00:03:48,430
So that's what I have been doing for the last seven years. Before joining the MBA program, I spent about four and a half in client service,

30
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:55,069
so started off as an analyst creating a lot of PowerPoint decks and doing a lot of desk research,

31
00:03:55,070 --> 00:04:00,860
which is essentially what you spend a majority of your time doing as a consultant.

32
00:04:01,310 --> 00:04:05,340
And then the last two and a half years before I joined the MBA program,

33
00:04:05,340 --> 00:04:11,600
I actually switched from the client facing role, and I worked as chief of staff for the firm,

34
00:04:11,870 --> 00:04:19,220
which meant I worked really closely with our leadership team in sort of helping with the day to day management of the firm.

35
00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:28,730
So that's that's been my journey to to here. So it's safe to say that in terms of impact, you have a pretty good grasp of what impact is.

36
00:04:29,420 --> 00:04:40,489
Oh, well, that sounds like a very existential question because there's so many things that fall within the realm of impact.

37
00:04:40,490 --> 00:04:48,110
And I would say that the way we define impact has definitely shifted over the years.

38
00:04:48,110 --> 00:04:58,580
I think before working in impact for a lot of people meant either working in in government, in public service or working in an NGO.

39
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:10,879
And now that's shifting as the world of business, the world of public service, and this question of sustainability,

40
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:16,040
equality and building institutions that have this values embedded within them.

41
00:05:16,370 --> 00:05:18,649
Increasingly, these things are emerging.

42
00:05:18,650 --> 00:05:26,720
And so it becomes increasingly difficult to differentiate between when does when is your job impactful occurs and when is it not,

43
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:33,950
as businesses and different institutions increasingly sort of develop a focus on this areas?

44
00:05:33,950 --> 00:05:40,579
And so, yes, I guess I've I've done a bit of worked in impact impact,

45
00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:48,650
but I think increasingly for all of us, whatever we work, our jobs sort of have a thread back to impact.

46
00:05:50,180 --> 00:05:54,350
Yeah. It's an it's an interesting point that you make because we are we're increasingly

47
00:05:54,350 --> 00:06:00,050
moving to a world where people are not solely focussed on what they do,

48
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,040
but also focussed on the meaning and the purpose behind it.

49
00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:11,720
So do you think I suppose on that note, that impact is something that's becoming ingrained in business,

50
00:06:12,050 --> 00:06:18,770
or is it still something that we need to explicitly strive for on top of what we do in our normal daily jobs?

51
00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:30,440
I think a bit of both. It's very inspiring to see younger people, not even our generation, like the folks who are a bit younger than us.

52
00:06:31,390 --> 00:06:38,920
And seeing young people really seek opportunities or jobs where they feel there's a purpose

53
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:45,700
to what they do and demanding that from their employers and organisations and companies,

54
00:06:45,700 --> 00:06:54,910
realising that you can get better talent by being a values driven or a purpose driven organisation.

55
00:06:55,330 --> 00:07:08,980
And so. Increasingly, I think folks are demanding more from what they do on a day to day basis and, and, and organisations are responding.

56
00:07:09,450 --> 00:07:12,940
I, I think like taking a step back a bit again.

57
00:07:14,050 --> 00:07:21,610
When I was getting into the world of impact seven years ago, I think a lot of it was grounded around.

58
00:07:22,470 --> 00:07:35,790
What we called international development. And so aid programs, a lot of the work that institutions like the world bank do or w.h.o. or the u.n.

59
00:07:36,930 --> 00:07:50,960
Around alleviating poverty, promoting good public health outcomes, good education outcomes, or providing access to just basic goods and services.

60
00:07:51,010 --> 00:07:57,660
And so when you thought about impact, that is typically what you would think about this aid programs.

61
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:10,860
And increasingly, people are starting to recognise the power of using market solutions to spark economic growth and ideally in the process,

62
00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:17,090
also to reduce inequality. And I think the world has made a lot of progress.

63
00:08:17,100 --> 00:08:21,480
I mean, I think looking at the sustainable development goals again there,

64
00:08:21,510 --> 00:08:26,580
this huge audacious goals that sometimes can feel impossible to ever achieve.

65
00:08:27,090 --> 00:08:33,479
But for each of these goals, when you actually look at the data, you can see that people's lives are improving.

66
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,870
We're pulling people out of poverty in some context.

67
00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:40,500
Inequality is declining, but in other ways we are also regressing.

68
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:48,120
And the issue of climate change is the perfect example where every single day we are

69
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,249
living in this planet like things are getting worse unless we make super drastic changes.

70
00:08:53,250 --> 00:09:01,020
And so I think on the one hand, there's a lot to celebrate in terms of the progress we've been able to make as humanity,

71
00:09:01,020 --> 00:09:08,459
while at the same time recognising that we have such a huge way to go and increasingly we need to see this.

72
00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:14,670
Problems are not just problems happening in in other places in in the developing world.

73
00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:17,819
Rather, these are actually problems in our backyard.

74
00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:22,470
Issues of inequalities are do not just exist in sub-Sahara Africa.

75
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:29,160
They exist everywhere. They exist in in in San Francisco with issues of affordable housing, for instance.

76
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:38,549
And one of the things one of the developments I noticed working in this space was increasingly specifically at the firm I worked at.

77
00:09:38,550 --> 00:09:46,830
We would try to figure out what are the lessons we can pull for other regions that we've learned that we can then bring back to,

78
00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:53,370
let's say, for instance, the U.S. in tackling issues of of of access to education or access to affordable housing.

79
00:09:53,370 --> 00:10:00,809
And so increasingly we need to recognise that question of impact and development are everywhere, either in our backyard.

80
00:10:00,810 --> 00:10:08,430
And so everyone has a role to play. What I think I found particularly interesting is when you mentioned that you're taking lessons

81
00:10:08,430 --> 00:10:14,520
from one country and using it to apply to situations that may be similar in another country.

82
00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:22,770
And going back to impact consulting as an industry, we also, of course, have impact investing.

83
00:10:23,370 --> 00:10:30,570
And I'd love if you could share more about what are the kind of mandates you experience and impact consulting,

84
00:10:30,990 --> 00:10:34,380
and how does that compare to something like Impact Investing,

85
00:10:34,770 --> 00:10:40,550
where it's almost at the discretion of the funds where they want to put their effort into?

86
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:47,580
Yeah. So the main difference between those two sectors and I think it's great that you bring

87
00:10:47,580 --> 00:10:52,980
it up because a lot of student ssbs are very interested in this to career tracks.

88
00:10:53,460 --> 00:11:03,060
So impact consulting again it's it's very similar to regular consulting in terms of your day to day experience as an analyst, as a consultant,

89
00:11:03,060 --> 00:11:12,810
as a project manager, what you're doing is very, very similar as you would be doing and another manager and consulting firm.

90
00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:18,930
The main difference being the kinds of problems that you're tackling and who your clients are.

91
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:28,230
And so actually the best example that I can give to contextualise what we do within impact consulting is the go to project.

92
00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:32,549
And so the kind of cases that we're encountering,

93
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:37,020
the issues we're addressing or the problems we're trying to solve within that

94
00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:42,000
particular course are would be what you would be working on as an impact consulting.

95
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:51,660
So to give a specific example, this course, I'm taking the blended finance track within Goto,

96
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:59,400
and I was super excited to choose that particular class because I remember about seven years ago when I was starting out in Impact Consulting,

97
00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:05,400
we had to advice one of the bilateral aid agencies in terms of their blended finance strategy,

98
00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:13,259
which essentially meant that they wanted to increasingly use their funding not just to find and programs,

99
00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:21,270
rather to figure out how can they use some of their funding to catalyse more private investments in developing countries or in emerging markets?

100
00:12:21,870 --> 00:12:32,910
And so whether that ranges from investing in funds, in park funds by taking or expecting a lower return in order to attract more commercial investors.

101
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:39,750
And that is one path to to sort of promoting change or to achieving the change you want to see.

102
00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:49,500
So, for instance, whether you want to promote the growth of SMEs in South Africa, for instance, and as bilateral agency or an aid agency,

103
00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:55,979
you can choose to use some of your funding to co-invest alongside the banks in order

104
00:12:55,980 --> 00:13:01,559
to incentivise banks to give funding to small and growing businesses in South Africa.

105
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:08,580
And ideally, by investing in those businesses, your aspiring economic activity and your generating jobs,

106
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:15,180
you're providing essential goods and services. And so, again, this is a particular thing we're doing within Cotu,

107
00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:21,720
and it's a project that I a very similar project I did when I started off working in Impact Consulting.

108
00:13:22,020 --> 00:13:29,370
And so, again, whether you're tackling issues within finance or issues within health or issues

109
00:13:29,370 --> 00:13:32,490
to do with affordable housing or even issues to deal with climate change,

110
00:13:33,270 --> 00:13:38,549
the whole idea of impact consulting is you're dealing with sometimes what feels

111
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:44,120
like intractable problems and you have to bring a systems thinking to it like it.

112
00:13:44,170 --> 00:13:52,190
It you always have to take like what we typically call the multi stakeholder lens to solving problems.

113
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,500
It can't just be like one organisation of one company.

114
00:13:55,860 --> 00:14:04,980
And as I maybe example I can give is we were trying to figure out how we can give access to clean energy, cooking energy for households in Kenya.

115
00:14:05,310 --> 00:14:15,420
And I remember we had to think about how can we engage the Ministry of Energy to figure out ways where they can make clean energy more affordable?

116
00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:22,889
And similarly, you have to think about how do you engage energy companies to invest in some of the innovative solutions that are coming up.

117
00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:30,959
And at the same time, how can you invest in young and upcoming entrepreneurs that are coming up with really good technological ideas?

118
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:39,420
And so when you're thinking about solving a problem like access to clean energy, clean cooking energy, it can't just be about what can one company do,

119
00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:49,110
but it's what can government do, what can policymakers do, what can donor funders do, and what can other other companies within the ecosystem do?

120
00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:57,600
So that that is impact consulting, where you are playing this advisory role and really bringing together different actors.

121
00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:05,099
Impact investing is very specific because it's just about placing capital in in different contexts.

122
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:10,739
And so the main difference being with impact and again impact investing is a spectrum.

123
00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:18,899
You go all the way from sort of ESG investing to investors that are sort of really taking a

124
00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:25,379
lot of risk with their with their funding to to sort of promote new and innovative ideas.

125
00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:33,450
So, for instance, when you think about some of the investments that the Gates Foundation does, which is something you would call venture philanthropy,

126
00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:41,459
it's like using their own philanthropic funding to fund ideas that maybe governments might not be able to find or ideas that

127
00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:49,410
are too high risk that a commercial investor might not be willing to take that level of risk or the market feels very nascent.

128
00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:56,460
And so that's where philanthropic funders like Gates can come in and say, we'll use our own philanthropic funding to invest in this space.

129
00:15:56,730 --> 00:15:59,880
And you've seen them doing a lot of that within health,

130
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:06,870
whether that's vaccine development within energy as well, the development of nuclear energy as a power source.

131
00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:11,879
And so yeah, so very interconnected. Those two spaces are very interconnected.

132
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:19,260
But on the one hand you are devising institutions, on the other hand, you're actually placing capital in ideas and businesses.

133
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,200
I particularly like the example of the go to project and for those listening,

134
00:16:25,530 --> 00:16:31,830
the go to project is the global opportunities and threats assignment that has been given to the MBA cohort.

135
00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:40,500
And what I love to know is, from your experience within the space, how how important is finance?

136
00:16:40,830 --> 00:16:44,430
Actually, because especially from the African example,

137
00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:51,360
we we live on a continent that does not have the same access to financial flows as other countries.

138
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:59,130
And whether you're in impact consulting or in venture capital, how crucial is it to getting these funds to where they need to be?

139
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:11,250
Finance and access to capital is sort of very, very, very critical to sort of development development journey or promoting economic growth.

140
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:21,750
And I think traditionally the way we've thought about development or economic growth has.

141
00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:29,740
Been very focussed on what policies can government put in place to support the business environment for instance,

142
00:17:30,190 --> 00:17:38,410
or what programs can donors find to improve health outcomes or education outcomes?

143
00:17:38,770 --> 00:17:48,940
But what people are realising is that you need market solutions as well, which you cannot constantly rely on aid funding.

144
00:17:49,930 --> 00:17:58,419
You need to figure out how to sustainable, sustainably produce affordable products that lower income households can afford.

145
00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:07,510
Great. And so the only way you do that is by finding entrepreneurs, finding people with innovative ideas and funding them,

146
00:18:07,810 --> 00:18:12,250
which then makes this idea of the flow of capital really critical.

147
00:18:12,670 --> 00:18:24,910
You have a place like Silicon Valley that is awash with funding, like there's always an investor willing to invest in the next app idea or tech idea.

148
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:28,209
Some of them, again, have been very revolutionary.

149
00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:36,910
And some of them we just they feel like playing I don't want to say plain stupid, but I think investors who invest in anything,

150
00:18:36,910 --> 00:18:42,639
they just come up with with a slide deck and walk around Silicon Valley and they'll be an investor willing

151
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:48,430
to invest in your idea whether or not it's transforming people's lives or making people's lives better.

152
00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:57,280
And so what if you could actually find a way to bridge the gap between supply of capital and where the demand sits?

153
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:03,160
Right. And where you really have the opportunity to transform a lot of people's lives,

154
00:19:04,510 --> 00:19:10,060
where you have the opportunity to start bridging the gap with the Sustainable Development Goals.

155
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:16,209
And so the issue of finance and flow of capital becomes very important.

156
00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:23,530
And so if you work in the impact space, there's no way that you can ignore how capital flows.

157
00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:29,890
And you have to hold yourself accountable to learning how the world works.

158
00:19:30,730 --> 00:19:39,580
And in a way, figure out how to bridge those gaps. And so I would say that I think it's very relevant that a lot of our go to

159
00:19:39,580 --> 00:19:45,680
project has have a finance element to it because money makes the world go round.

160
00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:54,850
Going back to to what you said about looking at this at the system with a systems lens.

161
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:05,920
One of the big things and the questions is, does the work you do impact actually lead to long term sustainability and behaviour change?

162
00:20:06,670 --> 00:20:13,870
Have you been able to been able to look back at the projects you've done and been able to confirm whether you know,

163
00:20:14,260 --> 00:20:19,720
okay, well we did this project and it has actually led to sustainable long term change.

164
00:20:20,350 --> 00:20:26,800
Or is there still some work to be done in terms of creating solutions that really last?

165
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,860
I would say so I, I did a lot of work.

166
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:44,440
In the access to clean energy space during my time I Dahlberg and that ranges all the way from

167
00:20:45,490 --> 00:20:54,100
promoting access to clean cookstoves for low income households to promoting access to clean fuels.

168
00:20:54,130 --> 00:21:04,720
And so for those who don't have context, a lot of households still use fuel such as firewood or charcoal or kerosene,

169
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,230
which tend to be sort of dirtier, more polluting fuels.

170
00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:20,350
And the impact of using this fuels or kind of this cookstoves that are not as clean is that you have a wide range of issues impacting that household,

171
00:21:20,620 --> 00:21:26,439
ranging from the amount of time you might spend, for instance, trying to find firewood,

172
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,240
and which is typically a role that's normally played by women and girls.

173
00:21:32,170 --> 00:21:36,370
And so they're losing time to do other things to health outcomes.

174
00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:44,410
Again, using this fuels in your household can really impact the quality of air within the household.

175
00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:49,450
And so it leads to a lot of household air pollution, which leads to poorer health outcomes.

176
00:21:51,100 --> 00:22:01,750
And then there's also sort of time wasted, the amount of time you're spending, both finding the fuel or collecting the fuel and cooking as well.

177
00:22:02,140 --> 00:22:14,080
And so there's an opportunity to really transform or have immense positive impact on a household by helping them transition to clean, clean cooking.

178
00:22:14,290 --> 00:22:18,030
And it's it's not just the households that benefit.

179
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,169
It's also the community and the world at large, because, again, this fuel tend to be very polluting.

180
00:22:23,170 --> 00:22:30,430
And so they're also contributing to green greenhouse emissions and effectively contributing to climate change.

181
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:39,459
So there's so many benefits you can have by helping households like typically low income households transition to clean fuels.

182
00:22:39,460 --> 00:22:43,870
One of the very first projects they did, I remember working,

183
00:22:43,870 --> 00:22:49,719
we were working for the World Bank to help them create an advocacy toolkit which they

184
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:56,410
would then essentially use to advocate for lowering of tariffs or taxes on clean cooking,

185
00:22:56,770 --> 00:23:00,669
clean cookstoves that are being imported into different sub-Saharan African countries.

186
00:23:00,670 --> 00:23:06,910
And ideally, by eliminating the top of the taxes, then you're making the cookstoves more affordable for households.

187
00:23:07,330 --> 00:23:17,740
And I will say that having done that project back in 2015, I can see that there's been a lot of positive progress within the clean cooking space.

188
00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:26,649
So, for instance, in Kenya in particular, there are a lot of households that have transitioned to using cleaner fuels,

189
00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:31,150
to using cleaner cookstoves, because this items have become more affordable.

190
00:23:31,330 --> 00:23:38,170
And it's not just an affordability question, but it's also raising awareness in telling people, hey,

191
00:23:38,170 --> 00:23:46,450
actually, there are a lot of negative impacts from from from using some of the fuel options that you use.

192
00:23:46,450 --> 00:23:55,690
And what if you could be able to afford an alternative source of energy that is not that much more expensive than what you use today?

193
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:57,340
Would you consider that? Right.

194
00:23:57,340 --> 00:24:05,670
And so there's an element of education, awareness raising and just making this product available because there's also the question of availability,

195
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:11,919
like households would be willing to use cleaner fuels if there were more available to them.

196
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,260
And so if you're a rural household and the only thing that's available to you is charcoal and firewood,

197
00:24:17,530 --> 00:24:24,429
like even if you could potentially afford an alternative source of energy, then you can't use it because it's not available to you.

198
00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:32,620
And so I can say over the seven years I've worked in this space and I've done it to different variations of projects around clean energy,

199
00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:38,020
access to clean energy, and I've seen so much progress happening.

200
00:24:38,860 --> 00:24:44,420
I would say East Africa is actually a melting pot of innovation,

201
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:51,219
just different innovations that are happening to bring affordable products to households,

202
00:24:51,220 --> 00:25:00,520
whether that's like, for instance, solar home systems as well, is is one of the innovations that have really caught on within within East Africa.

203
00:25:00,730 --> 00:25:07,210
And those are some of the projects I worked on, like how do we bring funding to such entrepreneurs?

204
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:15,250
How do we bridge the policy gap? How do we go and lobby the government to lower taxes so that households can afford this product?

205
00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:19,750
And so that's that's one example of an area I did a lot of work in.

206
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:32,559
And I can genuinely say I've observed the change happening like more and more households in Kenya using LPG cooking gas instead of, of, of wood fuels.

207
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:41,510
And so. Yeah, that's a very long winded answer, but I, I can genuinely say I've observed the impact of what we do on people's lives.

208
00:25:42,450 --> 00:25:44,209
No, it's, it's it's amazing to hear.

209
00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:53,150
And I think it's, you know, reassuring for everyone out there that the projects that are happening in the space are really making a long term impact.

210
00:25:54,380 --> 00:26:01,100
And this being said, you've had the opportunity to experience these conversations from a wide range of views.

211
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,200
So, for example, you know, you you've you you're born and raised in Kenya.

212
00:26:07,010 --> 00:26:10,070
You went to Harvard, you worked in the impact space.

213
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:20,000
Now you're in the U.K. You've managed to be in so many different locations that are at the range of development, so different to one another.

214
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,240
One thing that's always spoken about in Africa is. Does.

215
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:36,250
Can Africa afford to make that sacrifice in terms of being more sustainable than in the operations as opposed to other developed nations,

216
00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:39,550
which didn't really have a constraint on things like fossil fuels?

217
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,719
Yeah. Or do you believe in the alternative side of the story,

218
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:49,120
which is African Africa can really be built from the ground up using sustainable

219
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:54,460
practices and be a beacon to the world and how you achieve economic growth.

220
00:26:54,490 --> 00:26:58,690
Yeah, I would love to know your thoughts and if you have any experience in how this has been done.

221
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:07,090
I hope so. I, I hold the optimistic view that we can actually be.

222
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:17,050
And by we, I guess, I mean, I think as a continent or different African countries be a pacesetter in terms of positive innovation.

223
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:28,270
And the reason why I believe that is because we don't have a lot of legacy infrastructure that already exists, that then we have to transform.

224
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:38,290
Rather, we're starting from scratch. We have a blank slate to do things and build things in a better way from how it's been done in the past.

225
00:27:38,770 --> 00:27:45,970
And I think there's so much innovation that we've seen coming out of the continent that

226
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:53,440
people would like sort of typically see has leapfrogged the sort of development trajectory.

227
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:56,950
I mean, one perfect example, I know this comes up so many times,

228
00:27:57,250 --> 00:28:05,020
but it's such an inspiring innovation or an innovation that we're really proud of back in Kenya.

229
00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:11,409
And it's so interesting when you see the rest of the world catching up, including the developed world,

230
00:28:11,410 --> 00:28:17,500
like finally catching up when it comes to fintech or the use of mobile money.

231
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:21,430
And we're like, Yeah, we've been doing that in Kenya for 20 years and like everyone,

232
00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:29,950
including my grandma, like can easily use you use mobile money and they use it on a day to day basis.

233
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,760
So that's one, for instance, perfect example of innovation.

234
00:28:34,660 --> 00:28:40,420
And in this case, of course, I'm talking about M-Pesa that that that a few people have heard about,

235
00:28:40,420 --> 00:28:47,410
which is this idea that anyone with a mobile phone and it doesn't even have to be a smartphone,

236
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:55,570
you could literally transfer money from your mobile phone to someone else's mobile phone and you can also use the money to purchase items.

237
00:28:55,570 --> 00:28:59,620
So essentially, you have a bank account in your in your in your pocket.

238
00:28:59,620 --> 00:29:05,349
And it's it's almost synonymous with day to day life in Kenya.

239
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:10,120
Right. And it's been around for so long and it's really revolutionise a lot of things.

240
00:29:10,510 --> 00:29:12,430
And so that is one perfect example.

241
00:29:13,870 --> 00:29:22,840
So I hope, as I said, I hope the optimistic view of we are definitely have the potential to be at the forefront of innovation.

242
00:29:23,050 --> 00:29:28,120
We have the potential to be the pacesetter because we don't have to deal with legacy infrastructure.

243
00:29:28,750 --> 00:29:38,860
Yeah. And it's a it's quite also reassuring to know that the talent that is being showcased on the African continent is getting recognised by,

244
00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:48,730
by organisations around the world. And I think the most important thing is to, you know, really back ourselves when we say, you know,

245
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:58,210
we are not constrained by these issues, we can reframe these positively and we can showcase our tenant to the world.

246
00:29:58,870 --> 00:30:07,239
So tying things back to impact consulting. How is the impact industry approaching these opportunities and what are some of

247
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,680
the actions the big firms are taking to make meaningful purpose driven change?

248
00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:22,870
Yeah. So over the last couple of years, a lot of the big consulting firms have actually ended up opening offices across across Africa.

249
00:30:23,410 --> 00:30:28,500
And. Some of what they do is impact consulting.

250
00:30:28,740 --> 00:30:44,860
I think it's very difficult to. Two separate, just regular doing business in Africa from creating positive social change or inspiring economic growth,

251
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:51,939
which then in turn pulls people out of poverty and in turns like increases people income levels, secures people's livelihoods.

252
00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:56,560
And so when I think about impact consulting or people who want to break into this space,

253
00:30:57,220 --> 00:31:09,850
it doesn't have to be going to work for a philanthropic institution or a organisation that specifically focuses on, quote unquote, impact.

254
00:31:10,270 --> 00:31:18,370
You can go work at a McKinsey in South Africa or in Ethiopia,

255
00:31:18,370 --> 00:31:25,749
and you're working very closely with government to help them with their, I guess, agriculture policy rate.

256
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:32,889
And so their opportunities to break into this space by also following the traditional routes.

257
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:39,850
And so I would encourage anyone not to be restricted when they think about how can I work in the impact space?

258
00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:47,760
I think you can do that by just following the traditional career paths that other people have followed,

259
00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:55,720
just recognising that when you work in some of this markets, you have again to think about problems from a systems perspective.

260
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,820
And that's really why impact consulting or working in impact means it's it just

261
00:32:00,820 --> 00:32:06,370
means that you're not just thinking about how to improve the company's bottom line.

262
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:13,960
You're also thinking about or what are what is the quality of jobs that the company is actually providing to the community?

263
00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:18,950
Are the goods are the companies providing actually affordable to people?

264
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,850
Are not are they feeling a gap?

265
00:32:21,850 --> 00:32:31,930
And so I would encourage anyone who is interested in the space to just figure out what they personally would want to be doing on a day to day basis,

266
00:32:32,290 --> 00:32:40,629
and then really casting the net wide in terms of what companies that they can

267
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:45,790
actually work at and still achieve the goals that they have for themselves.

268
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:52,299
I agree. And I think that really goes back to the beginning of the episode when you

269
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:57,730
said impact is really becoming ingrained in what we do on a day to day basis.

270
00:32:58,180 --> 00:33:05,500
And I hope this really inspires the people that don't know their next move and they aspire to a career, an impact,

271
00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:12,069
but on maybe worried whether it's for them or not and to know that there's lots of

272
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:16,390
businesses involved in the impact space at the moment and it's just about reaching out,

273
00:33:16,510 --> 00:33:20,080
I think set a good example of what we think business can be.

274
00:33:20,740 --> 00:33:25,990
And just the end of this is a question we are asking all of our guests on the podcast this year.

275
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:34,150
What will the future of business look like in 100 years? Ooh, that is a good one.

276
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:42,550
I think we will be having fewer debates about sort of business responsibility to society.

277
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:53,680
And just like because we will be living in a very different society and from sort of feeling the impacts of what's what's happening today,

278
00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:04,690
I think increasingly businesses will need to be providing products and services that are essential to and what you need to see our survival.

279
00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:11,499
And so I think we'll have to move away from what is the purpose of a business?

280
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:21,069
Is it just to generate profit to what products and services are businesses creating and how are they impacting our lives?

281
00:34:21,070 --> 00:34:23,649
Are they useful or not? Are they useful to our survival?

282
00:34:23,650 --> 00:34:34,180
Because I think, unfortunately, unless things drastically change a hundred years from now, we might be living in a very survival mode type world.

283
00:34:34,180 --> 00:34:40,750
And so the role of business would be to provide essential goods and services to ensure our survival.

284
00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:49,990
Well, I hope we do get there. But Chris, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and join us today.

285
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,800
I've certainly learned so much about the impact consulting space, what it's like to have a career.

286
00:34:57,130 --> 00:35:03,250
And I really hope people are inspired by what you have to give us and all the experience you brought.

287
00:35:03,250 --> 00:35:12,820
And, you know, we're very lucky to have you in the cohort and I really look forward to following your career journey over the next few years.

288
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:18,010
Thank you so much for having me and I feel very lucky to be part of this year's cohort as well.

289
00:35:18,250 --> 00:35:26,440
It's amazing. And this brings our episode to close a warm thanks to Grace for joining us today and the

290
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,510
insights we have learned from her career and impact consulting if you've enjoyed this episode.

291
00:35:31,930 --> 00:35:34,240
Please feel free to subscribe so you can receive many more.

292
00:35:34,930 --> 00:35:39,520
I've been your host, Angus, and we'll see you for the next episode from the Future of Business podcast.