1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,800 Good evening, everybody, and welcome to this evening's talk. 2 00:00:05,230 --> 00:00:09,630 And my name is Anne Marie Boylan, and I am a senior researcher in the Health Experiences Research Group. 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:17,070 I'm also the module coordinator for the Master's in evidence based Health Care Module on qualitative research methods. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,799 And this evening's talk is part of that module, and you're very welcome. 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,120 And it's great to see so many smiling faces here. 6 00:00:24,670 --> 00:00:30,330 I'd like to introduce you to Dr. John McCartney, who is a colleague of mine in the Health Experiences Research Group. 7 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:33,840 He's a senior researcher and the sociologist of health and wellness. 8 00:00:34,170 --> 00:00:40,950 And his particular interest is in cancer diagnosis, end of life care, palliative care and bereavement. 9 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,190 And he's previously worked in Australia as well as here, 10 00:00:45,060 --> 00:00:53,310 and has most recently been working on an international sort of comparative study about cancer diagnosis across England, Sweden and Denmark. 11 00:00:54,030 --> 00:00:58,290 He's here this evening to talk to us about how qualitative researchers approach analysis, 12 00:00:58,530 --> 00:01:02,940 which I know the students of the Master's course are going to be very interested in. So over to you. 13 00:01:03,390 --> 00:01:06,870 Thank you very much. Thank you, everybody. And thanks for coming this evening. 14 00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:12,000 We do a little introduction to myself for some reason, I hopefully don't. 15 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:18,840 And I think the only thing I will add to that is the question that I ask myself whenever 16 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,430 I'm doing my research and when I'm trying to think about my research as a sociologist, 17 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:30,300 because that's primarily how I approach my work, is the question of how we understand ourselves as we do, or how. 18 00:01:30,510 --> 00:01:34,740 Sometimes I will ask, how do these participants understand themselves as they do? 19 00:01:35,130 --> 00:01:35,550 Okay. 20 00:01:35,730 --> 00:01:43,559 And that is going to be a theme that goes through the talk today and how I try and convince you that a sociological approach to qualitative research, 21 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:53,340 which is something I'm going to focus on, a particular style of research is is useful in and it is a productive way to do qualitative research. 22 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:02,549 And so this talk I'm going to focus in on exploring what we mean by description and interpretation, 23 00:02:02,550 --> 00:02:07,140 I think start to look at the difference between those two things and how they relate to each other 24 00:02:07,830 --> 00:02:12,989 and start to get you to think about those things in your research is qualitative research is part 25 00:02:12,990 --> 00:02:17,330 of that will be to help develop our reflexive capacity or what I would call as a sociologist our 26 00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:23,430 sociological imagination by considering how the categories that we use can affect our analysis. 27 00:02:23,430 --> 00:02:26,580 And I'm going to go to a few examples of how we do that. 28 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:36,830 And as the talk is titled and open out and in your research, we're going to look to an example of how to develop a thematic analysis up and out. 29 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,899 So just as you've probably learning for those of you on masses, because there's lots of different types of qualitative research, 30 00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:47,280 narrative, phenomenological content, etc., and we just take a nice, 31 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:53,939 simplistic, simple, simplified thematic analysis, rather simplistic, simplified thematic analysis, 32 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:57,960 and take that up now and show you how we might want to start doing that. 33 00:02:58,650 --> 00:03:05,250 What do I mean by a pan out? And this is the a little diagram. 34 00:03:05,250 --> 00:03:06,899 You know, you've got your data and you've done your fieldwork. 35 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:12,300 You've got all that, all the data collected, and this presumes some sort of ethnographic type approach. 36 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:18,120 So you will have done some interviews, make them feel notes, take some photographs, got some video data. 37 00:03:18,330 --> 00:03:21,600 So you've got all your data of organised that you've worked out, what sort of data you've got, 38 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:28,200 you've coded it and you've gone through in vivo or using post-it notes or however you want to do that. 39 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,159 And and again you will have been probably talking about that earlier in the week and what 40 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,150 we're going to focus on is this sort of third stage here where we describe the data, 41 00:03:36,630 --> 00:03:40,980 we use some classifications, we interpret it, and we start to abstract. 42 00:03:40,980 --> 00:03:49,530 We start to move away from the the data itself I've just described this here is three and three B and three, 43 00:03:49,530 --> 00:03:53,459 a sort of moving up how we get to the data and how we move away from it a little bit, 44 00:03:53,460 --> 00:03:58,320 start to put some distance between the data itself and our approach to it and we describe and interpret it. 45 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:02,700 That's going to be the main part of this talk today, the op parts, 46 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:09,149 but the moving out is built into that and that's sort of the OP is the first out of the out to some extent that's we're 47 00:04:09,150 --> 00:04:16,680 going to move and show you some of the examples of ways you might think about going out towards conceptual approaches, 48 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,520 approach theory and how that might affect your research. 49 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:27,900 So why is this important? Okay, this is important for qualitative research for a number of reasons. 50 00:04:28,140 --> 00:04:32,190 Well, probably I imagine most of to be aware of that qualitative piece, 51 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:36,989 which regularly receives a bit of a thumping and gets and gets critiqued for various reasons, 52 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:43,620 critique for epistemological reasons about what is known about what you can say about qualitative research. 53 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:48,180 I'm not really going to address that. If you look at the podcast for this evidence based medicine, 54 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:54,900 there's a really good topic and it's really good talk by Axel about qualitative research and have a look at those. 55 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,880 And Tricia in particular talks about the ontologies in qualitative research and about. 56 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,700 Who speaks out about how we can understand who's speaking. And those are sort of important issues for qualitative research. 57 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:11,870 We need to take that into account when we do our analysis. These are unavoidable problems. 58 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,360 There's no we will work it out and then we'll have a solution. 59 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:20,220 Every time we do qualitative research, we approach these and these issues. 60 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:25,590 Certainly that's my opinion and you have to work into it, and that's part of doing qualitative research. 61 00:05:25,950 --> 00:05:30,620 And we'll see how that's built into the various methods and methodologies that you take on. 62 00:05:31,770 --> 00:05:38,400 And for this reason, you need to understand the costs and benefits of any decisions you make as you go through your analysis. 63 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:45,230 Okay. So this is where I like to say I've got a student say bias is your business, okay? 64 00:05:45,420 --> 00:05:50,480 This is what you need to do. You need to learn to own your bias. How does your bias affect what you're doing? 65 00:05:50,730 --> 00:05:54,059 The qualitative research is very much entangled within those biases. 66 00:05:54,060 --> 00:05:57,800 There's no randomising it and it's not blinding yourself. You are biased. 67 00:05:57,810 --> 00:06:01,170 You need to work out how that's affecting your research and how it's affecting the output. 68 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,980 Okay. And you write that into your research and this is what we're going to look at today, 69 00:06:05,250 --> 00:06:10,170 working up an out and how you justify that and how that becomes a robust approach to doing your research. 70 00:06:11,130 --> 00:06:13,110 Okay. And you are the research method. 71 00:06:13,230 --> 00:06:19,560 That's quite an anthropological statement, but anthropologists try and find where they are in their research, and that's part of that process. 72 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:27,720 Okay. And really important to this is that voice reflexivity, okay, if you can't do qualitative research without being flexible, 73 00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:31,410 you need to understand who you are in relation to your data. Okay? 74 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,330 And you need to account for that. 75 00:06:33,330 --> 00:06:38,460 And the better you can account for that, the more robust and the better appreciated your data will be by a lot of researchers. 76 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:42,030 You really need to be aware of how you see others see it. Okay? 77 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:48,360 And there's just no easy ways around that, as we'll see. But there's lots of ways to help you think about how you do that. 78 00:06:49,530 --> 00:06:53,819 So. Let's start with a little example. 79 00:06:53,820 --> 00:06:56,990 I know it's a late evening, mom in this room. 80 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,230 That's the. But just tell me what you might see. Describe what is happening here. 81 00:07:01,860 --> 00:07:05,340 Just very simple. Most of the same. 82 00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:12,510 We have a doctor and we have a patient. Okay, so what might be happening? 83 00:07:15,770 --> 00:07:27,680 Although having a consultation visit sort of slot, she is the person standing up because that's what I need to be sitting down with in the door. 84 00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:34,520 Brilliant. Excellent. Any any of the interpretations of what might be or descriptions what may be happening here? 85 00:07:36,830 --> 00:07:43,160 Very happy with that as a as a consensus view. But that perfectly well could be what's happening here. 86 00:07:43,910 --> 00:07:49,040 Absolutely. We could flip this around that we could say this isn't a doctor patient relationship. 87 00:07:49,470 --> 00:07:52,760 He said this is a teaching relationship. This is a professor of surgery. 88 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:56,480 This is the student. She's sat down. She's the boss. 89 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,080 It's been on Fatal Day and student will stand up, listen carefully and take some notes. 90 00:08:00,710 --> 00:08:04,010 Right. So you've got a two category as doctor, patient, teacher, student. 91 00:08:04,340 --> 00:08:07,400 And how we understand those categories, understands how we interpret the world. 92 00:08:09,050 --> 00:08:13,020 That's it. That's the whole talk. Okay, if you've got that. 93 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,620 Hold on to it, because I'm going to try and confused and bring you up the other end. But that's it. 94 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,650 That's that's how that's how we're doing. Qualitative research is looking at the categories we use, 95 00:08:21,650 --> 00:08:24,620 how they're making us understand the data and trying to think about other 96 00:08:24,620 --> 00:08:27,740 categories and how they might help us understand that data in a different way. 97 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:35,860 Okay. And we work with that. So I'm going to make this point several times just in case we didn't get it. 98 00:08:35,870 --> 00:08:38,230 And you go through some of examples. Here's another one. 99 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:45,740 This is this is one that when I was doing my PhD, I read this book and I saw this and it made me laugh and it just stuck with me. 100 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:54,320 So what are animals? And this is an example from true couples, the order of things, animals in ancient China where they belong to them. 101 00:08:54,590 --> 00:08:58,270 This is how they understand most simply what is an animal that would sense they belong to them. 102 00:08:58,910 --> 00:09:04,100 These are some examples of animals and you could draw an animal with fine camel hairbrush. 103 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:08,750 And from a long way off, they look. They look like flies. That's what an animal is. 104 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:12,860 This is the taxonomy in animals. This is a category of animals. And this is how we understand it. 105 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:18,050 Okay. Now, that sounds alien towards it does make any sense. But that was a way of understanding the world. 106 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:20,540 Of course, we know animals in a complete different way. 107 00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:26,540 We have a very specific taxonomy we can describe in another ways, but that's how we understand them within our culture. 108 00:09:26,810 --> 00:09:30,710 We're not citing science that we use and it helps us to organise world. 109 00:09:31,250 --> 00:09:35,060 And there's no necessarily right or wrong here, but these are just of their time. 110 00:09:35,270 --> 00:09:43,560 These are the categories that we use and that's how we understood them. Okay, so these categories, they shape our interpretation. 111 00:09:44,180 --> 00:09:51,140 And this is this quote is you can see this sent me the little question I ask myself when I do research, this is where it comes from. 112 00:09:51,470 --> 00:09:55,700 And the wonder of this taxonomy reflecting on what you just looked at is the thing that 113 00:09:56,090 --> 00:09:59,870 is demonstrated by looking at another system of thought is a limitation of our own, 114 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,849 a stock in possibility of thinking that, okay, and this is a little bit what we're trying to do. 115 00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:09,350 We're trying to make alien the common sense assumptions that we have when we're doing our research. 116 00:10:09,620 --> 00:10:12,020 How is this mundane way we understand the world? 117 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:17,959 How can we make that so different and alien to us so that we can think about it critically and understand 118 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,610 where it's come from and how it might be shaping other aspects of our life and other aspects of our research. 119 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,140 So we can start to see the way we describe things affects the way we interpret things, 120 00:10:29,410 --> 00:10:32,740 but also the way we interpret things starts to affect the way we describe things. 121 00:10:33,010 --> 00:10:37,240 And this is a very circular thing. There's an example here from Phenomenological Study. 122 00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:41,620 So these are general principles you can apply in qualitative research. 123 00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:47,530 And if you're going to take a firm, logical approach with some background here with Edmund Husserl, 124 00:10:47,530 --> 00:10:56,620 Martin Heidegger had two different approaches to this question. One prioritised interpretation, one prioritise description, and so one try to do that. 125 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:04,120 This is very philosophical debate that they got into. When I want to point to, I want to get to to start thinking about it as a methodological issue. 126 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:11,170 Okay. So we're not trying to work out what's the answer to this question, which is trying to use this problem as a way to think about our data. 127 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,650 This is more methods than, you know, philosophy. 128 00:11:16,780 --> 00:11:21,220 So an easy for example, the baby cried, the mommy picked it up. 129 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,150 Really simple description. Okay, two sentences. 130 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:35,290 And just as a little aside, if if you have a worried you don't have enough data in qualitative research. 131 00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:40,330 These two sentences Harvey Sachs wrote two lectures are okay. 132 00:11:40,630 --> 00:11:45,100 You always have enough data. You might just not have the right questions to get the most out of that data. 133 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:53,350 Okay. So don't worry about I need to do another interview sometimes, you know, just remember, it is the questions you asking of that data sometimes. 134 00:11:53,440 --> 00:12:02,540 Anyway, that's an aside. Harvey Sachs, he was a conversation analysis and in the sixties he very sadly, tragically died in a car accident. 135 00:12:02,590 --> 00:12:09,790 So what we have mostly lectures from him, but when he what he's saying about this baby cried, the mommy picked it up. 136 00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:14,980 We can really start to see nothing that first imagined a whole world of things happening. 137 00:12:15,490 --> 00:12:21,850 We can have a complete description of what's happening. You know, we hear to it, to activities and they're related and they're connected. 138 00:12:22,090 --> 00:12:29,370 The babies crying, the mummy picks it up, we can hear there's a sequence that the baby crying and then the mother picked it up that, you know, 139 00:12:29,380 --> 00:12:35,620 it wasn't the picking up of the baby that made it cry, you know, that we can study that and interpret that very simply from the sentence. 140 00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:43,310 The categories within know sentences to sentences shape how we think about what's happening in that book. 141 00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:48,610 We expect the baby to be picked up carefully. We don't expect them to be picked up by that. 142 00:12:48,850 --> 00:12:53,110 If you asked to think about that picture, that's how you expect the baby to be picked up in that first picture. 143 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,650 When you think about the mother, you don't expect it to be a gorilla. 144 00:12:57,130 --> 00:13:00,460 Okay? There's a presumption it's a human mother and a human baby. 145 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:04,600 Okay. That's not in there. That's something you read into it. 146 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:10,600 It's a very simple things and how the categories shape a description and an interpretation of what's happening. 147 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:17,440 Okay. So you could see there's a real circularity going on here that you need to be part of to do qualitative 148 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:23,560 research and start getting aware of this and start looking for ideas to challenge your understandings, 149 00:13:23,770 --> 00:13:26,830 using your data, to challenge your understandings. And there's a back and forth. 150 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,420 And somewhere along this, at some point the music stops and you have to write paper. 151 00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:35,110 Okay. But that's that's how it goes. 152 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:43,810 And. So what are we doing when we do our analysis as a sociologist? 153 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:48,580 You know, sociological quality, qualitative research, I would argue, adds value. 154 00:13:49,130 --> 00:13:55,750 We're intervening in this by in some way, by challenging the categories that are in there and looking at them in different ways. 155 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:01,330 We're doing something that isn't being done by our participants where, you know, 156 00:14:01,390 --> 00:14:05,350 we ourselves are intervening in that field and we have to account for that. 157 00:14:05,830 --> 00:14:08,590 We have to come up mythologically and have to account for that ethically. 158 00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:14,530 But what we're looking to do is understand how people understand what it is they're doing and how they account for things. 159 00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:22,090 That's the first thing we try and do when we add some value by doing qualitative research and we seek to further our understanding of the meanings. 160 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,270 And this is really important. We're looking at meanings here. 161 00:14:25,710 --> 00:14:30,790 You know, how people understand what's happening is a meaning based qualitative research. 162 00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:39,640 What sociology also tries to do is try to point to the norms and values built into our understandings and meanings that we use. 163 00:14:39,970 --> 00:14:47,230 So having structure our understandings and affect them in different ways and what we try to resist and the utility of the of 164 00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:53,380 the understandings and the categories and that and the interpretations people have in their lives as they understand them. 165 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,710 So it's no not really helpful to walk up to a particular situation and say, well, these people are obviously doing this wrong. 166 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,030 Let me understand what it is you're doing wrong. And I will tell you, therefore, how you're doing it wrong. 167 00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:11,590 That's there's a priority in that. And my work in complementary and alternative medicine was full of that. 168 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,530 Whenever I told people that was the research I was doing would always go, Oh, 169 00:15:14,530 --> 00:15:17,740 well, you know, great, because you can tell them how to stop using homeopathy. 170 00:15:17,980 --> 00:15:23,770 Well, yeah, I know it doesn't work, but what I'm really interested in is what if they know that and they keep using it? 171 00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:28,310 How is it that they understand it to be working? Is it very different question? 172 00:15:28,450 --> 00:15:32,810 So does homeopathy work? But it was sociologically extremely interesting. 173 00:15:33,340 --> 00:15:41,170 Okay, so what we need to try and do is understand the logic of the field or the context, as the people in that context understand it for themselves. 174 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:48,070 And if we can start to do that, first up, we've taken a big step forward in studying how social world and what's happening. 175 00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:54,310 Some of the ways we can do that. Talk about developing reflexivity. 176 00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:57,220 This is an ongoing project to become a qualitative research. 177 00:15:57,390 --> 00:16:02,410 So it's almost a life's vocation because you have spent a lot of time trying to think about your biases, 178 00:16:02,490 --> 00:16:06,370 European standings, categories you use, how you might understand something differently. 179 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:11,500 And, you know, that's one of the joys that you get to pop into the history department with. 180 00:16:11,620 --> 00:16:12,970 A really interesting lecture there. 181 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:19,870 You can talk to the political department and get some really interesting ideas about, you know, the micro politics, things that might be happening. 182 00:16:20,170 --> 00:16:25,180 And as a sociologist, you're constantly meeting other people's work through different fields and have to be 183 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,420 able to find out other ways that people are understanding the things that are happening. 184 00:16:28,990 --> 00:16:33,250 And you build up the sensitivity of the sociological imagination. 185 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,360 Sociologists often referred to it develop women as social scientists. 186 00:16:37,390 --> 00:16:40,570 This is the contribution you can bring to qualitative research. 187 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:49,480 It starts with the world in slightly different ways. So that is about as technical. 188 00:16:49,690 --> 00:16:54,910 Theoretical as we get the next bit is just that working to a long example, 189 00:16:55,300 --> 00:17:00,010 because I don't know what I'm really telling you, but I think qualitative research is best meant by doing it. 190 00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:01,809 You need to be engaged in it. 191 00:17:01,810 --> 00:17:08,500 You can read as much as you can about it and about the various techniques, and it's all you're doing that you don't really understand your own biases. 192 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:13,810 You don't stand on the blind spots that you have when you're doing your research. 193 00:17:14,110 --> 00:17:17,530 So by doing it, you can start to engage with and understand how it is. 194 00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:22,840 You engage with a particular piece of data. Okay. But do we have any any questions about what I've said so far? 195 00:17:23,470 --> 00:17:33,300 I raced through that. Sorry. Brilliant, bright, clever day of sleep. 196 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:48,570 So the example, very simple question how might we understand an account of Miss Cancer diagnosis chosen this way simply because it's 197 00:17:48,570 --> 00:17:53,820 something I'm working a moment and have a nice little clip that works really nicely for this and it's a good little exercise, 198 00:17:53,820 --> 00:18:00,800 so hopefully it's self interest to most of you. Most people here will be have a health interest to that qualitative research. 199 00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:11,610 So having it so just by way of context, so I'm not coming to this blind, I'm not gonna theory would argue that you come to it, 200 00:18:11,610 --> 00:18:13,950 you know, and you work your way up and you get through your literature. 201 00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:21,330 But most of the time in our research lives, we've done a lot of reading before, we've applied for money, so we've had to do a huge amount of work. 202 00:18:21,540 --> 00:18:25,860 We've got a really good idea of what we're thinking about when we hit the field and do some data collection. 203 00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:28,290 So just thinking from that point of view, 204 00:18:28,590 --> 00:18:35,040 I know these particular things about the health care context that may or may not be affecting how people think about cancer diagnosis. 205 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,140 So we know the structural economic pressures in health care. We know that how acute that is right now. 206 00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:44,580 But these are things that have been going on for us ten, 20 years in different ways. 207 00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:48,600 And we know the fantastic advances in biosensors, in biomedicine, 208 00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:54,990 but it poses particular challenges for how we understand science and how that's communicated to people, to patients. 209 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:58,140 And they're getting the diagnosis and what they understand to be happening. 210 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,850 Often, if the doctor is not 100% sure, as we see specialisation of clinical knowledge, 211 00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:06,780 it can be quite difficult for the patient to understand what exactly is happening. 212 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:14,510 And we can think about that in terms of a lot of oncology specialists will be specialise in a particular form of oncology for that. 213 00:19:14,620 --> 00:19:23,909 But we also know the stages of investigation of a diagnosis and of a treatment and these might be particular breaks on how people go through health 214 00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:29,640 care system and about how clinicians thinking about what should be done and how patients might be thinking about how things should be done. 215 00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:39,330 We also know patient empowerment, choice and responsibility really big issues for today's health care, how we think about health care oriented, 216 00:19:39,340 --> 00:19:44,910 certainly things and that's had an effect on the doctor patient relationship in terms of relational practices, 217 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,190 shared decision making, patient centred care. 218 00:19:47,550 --> 00:19:52,710 So it's just the literature that's out that these are some of the things that are in our head when we we get to our data. 219 00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:56,370 So here's an example. I'm going to switch the lights off. 220 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:06,120 You can see this, but I want you to think about this is a short two minute clip of Kylie and that's the Australian connection coming to it. 221 00:20:06,420 --> 00:20:12,409 But. Well, just think about what Sam she's talking about and how we might understand and just start 222 00:20:12,410 --> 00:20:18,200 to think about some themes you might use to code what you haven't done a class in coding. 223 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,710 Most people just think about what might be happening there. So. 224 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,030 Okay, so she continues. That's enough data. 225 00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:33,440 Okay. So that's that's what we're thinking about. So I've done the transcribing, so you don't need to do that. 226 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,909 And I've also given it a quick edit to remove some of the chat memory. 227 00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:40,180 If we're doing conversation analysis, 228 00:20:40,190 --> 00:20:45,350 we could analyse the really awful interviewing technique that if somebody tell somebody something really private and it's got oh, 229 00:20:48,770 --> 00:20:51,650 it's taken me years of watching that video to get over the cringe every time. 230 00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:58,490 And I never make too few, few bits and pieces to give us a nice compact bit of text there to just work on. 231 00:20:58,540 --> 00:21:04,580 And this is going to like say simplified approach. Just to give you an idea of how we build up and out in our analysis. 232 00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:11,689 So this is the the text. And just in case for the podcast and that video is not allowed on, I'm going to read this out. 233 00:21:11,690 --> 00:21:14,330 I was diagnosed initially. So my message to all of you, 234 00:21:14,670 --> 00:21:19,760 everyone at home is because someone is in a white coat and using big medical instruments doesn't necessarily mean their rights. 235 00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:25,040 And they might have stories that I've heard of women going for diagnosis, being told, don't worry about a thing, it's fine. 236 00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:29,060 I don't want to say that to frighten people, but it's just a fact. 237 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,890 I guess you follow your intuition and if you have any doubt, go back again. 238 00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:38,270 That's what we're going to spend the rest of this time looking at. 239 00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:42,080 So what anticipated themes might we be thinking about? 240 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:52,110 If we're going to do our analysis, we've got all these things in the background of our head how if we get a code this data, what do we. 241 00:21:52,410 --> 00:21:57,020 What things we use to code it? He sat in front of in vivo. 242 00:21:57,740 --> 00:22:02,790 You've got your coding frame, open type something. So. 243 00:22:04,750 --> 00:22:09,880 Diagnosis. Yeah. Okay. What sort of went on here? 244 00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:17,620 I would think about these things. I mean, we've got advances in science and medicine, specialisation, clinical knowledge. 245 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:23,649 So I'm thinking about knowledge things and think about the state in terms of what knowledge is known and used, 246 00:22:23,650 --> 00:22:28,600 where empowerment seems to be quite important to the field. 247 00:22:29,020 --> 00:22:32,499 And Kylie So let's talk about empowerment and responsibility. 248 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:38,829 These seem key themes, and I'm also going to talk about shared decision making or something around this sort of area here. 249 00:22:38,830 --> 00:22:42,460 So I'm just going to put shared and bundle things in there. Okay. 250 00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:47,340 So that's why I came up with responsibility, power. Knowledge and sharing is my rough coach. 251 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:54,790 Absolutely. I could come up with completely different ones, but this is part of the qualitative processes. 252 00:22:55,150 --> 00:23:00,880 You're going to approach this particular view and this is your understanding of the literature and what you want to get out this data. 253 00:23:01,210 --> 00:23:09,140 So are these the right questions? And you put your coats together and then you tackle the data trust and big issue there. 254 00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:12,670 Yeah. Yeah. Good question. Yeah. 255 00:23:12,940 --> 00:23:19,120 And absolutely. But, you know, think about that in that way and and could have a fifth one trust. 256 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:30,010 I mean, I can absolutely put in but as we put in, you know, choice, you know, choice and choosing and healthcare is the key thing. 257 00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:39,340 What I've done is just simplify it again, just choosing for and not exhausting my list just to go to this talk. 258 00:23:39,340 --> 00:23:45,340 But that decision already is orientated me to the data to think about it in a particular way. 259 00:23:45,910 --> 00:23:48,910 Okay. I need to be clear to myself why I'm doing that. 260 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:57,800 So if somebody asks me, I can explain to them now. I know from my own experience that usually the first set of code you come up with, 261 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,150 you get halfway through your first or second interview and you realise these are really not working, okay? 262 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:06,590 This is not helping, not this, this, this is isn't going right. 263 00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:11,510 So you put them in the pen, start again and you think of some of the codes and you can do that two or three times. 264 00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:18,590 And I've done that with colleagues here. We, we spend a lot of time thinking about the ultimate use, how they interact with the data, 265 00:24:18,830 --> 00:24:23,660 how that shapes our understanding of that data, and then deciding that it doesn't seem to be working too well. 266 00:24:23,870 --> 00:24:29,929 Let's try some of the code before with exercise. Who's going to keep it simple and look at for you. 267 00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:33,110 Okay, so here we go. 268 00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:36,260 Here's my text and let's take that first sentence. 269 00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:39,780 You might want to write those down responsibility, power, knowledge and change. 270 00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:43,220 So I'm going to ask you to code this text with me. Okay. So. 271 00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:49,310 The first one. First, at first sentence, I was misdiagnosed initially. 272 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,240 How would you tell that? What is that going? 273 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:03,500 And responsibility, power and knowledge of sharing and tracking across an invisible cannot put it in one knowledge. 274 00:25:04,460 --> 00:25:10,970 Top of the class. That's exactly how I would put it. I can understand other people putting it somewhere else, 275 00:25:10,970 --> 00:25:18,830 but for the purpose of this exercise I only get to put it in one and put in there the next one. 276 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,870 So my message to all of you and everyone at home is I put that in responsibility, I think. 277 00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:30,260 Sharing. Sorry. Of course. So this is about sharing her story with other people. 278 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:32,950 And this is how I is going to categorise that. 279 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,930 And that was the next one, because someone is in a white coat and using medical instruments doesn't necessarily mean that. 280 00:25:38,930 --> 00:25:42,090 Right. Oh, power. Okay. 281 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,150 Mine felt for it was power to say this is great. 282 00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:51,049 And I mean, if you're doing it to rating reliability, we'd be doing very well. 283 00:25:51,050 --> 00:25:58,610 But I don't. And and the amount of stories that I've heard of women going for diagnosis and being told, don't worry about a thing, it's fine. 284 00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:06,600 So we've got power, knowledge, responsibility and charity. 285 00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:13,820 So sharing here. And again it's about telling stories. 286 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,610 Stories are sharing thing. So I would be happy to pop it in there for now. 287 00:26:20,510 --> 00:26:23,540 I didn't want to say that to frighten people, but that's just a fact. 288 00:26:27,410 --> 00:26:35,440 Yeah. It's about what is and is not knowledge. Oh, and if you follow your intuition, you have any doubt? 289 00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:40,940 Again, there two, two types of understanding that some knowledge and then the last one go back again. 290 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:49,550 Or if you have any doubt, go back again. Yeah. 291 00:26:50,450 --> 00:26:52,610 But still the place it sort of features. 292 00:26:52,850 --> 00:27:02,130 And even though I said we're not double counting a double counted, so which is just to make sense of go back again if you have any doubt, go back. 293 00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:05,959 So that's just going to help me when it comes to it. So there you go. 294 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:12,920 You've done your first bit of analysis, you've got your data, you've coded it and you've broken it all up into these various bits and pieces. 295 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,120 Now we're going to start getting more up and out. Now we're going to analyse this. 296 00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:25,490 So we take our first code knowledge. We've got to look at we've got and we will spit it out as I was misdiagnosed initially, 297 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,350 I don't want to say that to frighten people, but it's just a fact. I guess you follow your intuition if you have any doubt. 298 00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:34,729 So just keep it very simple step by step. 299 00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:37,970 Just describe that data to yourself to write a little paragraph, 300 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:45,770 paraphrasing that using as much as you can participants words so medicine can and does get things wrong. 301 00:27:45,980 --> 00:27:53,540 And this is something we should recognise is true. Your intuition can be a basis upon which you act just describing what is saying that okay. 302 00:27:53,540 --> 00:27:57,860 Not to be judgemental about it. I'm not trying to do too much, just trying to describe what to say. 303 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,340 Say we say. Then we can start to do some interpretation. 304 00:28:01,340 --> 00:28:02,690 We can start to add some value. 305 00:28:03,140 --> 00:28:10,250 Okay, I start to use some of the sociological imagination and I've got some the knowledge you've got to interpret what might be happening. 306 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,710 Just, you know, again thinking you've got your data for me, you can just my days down. 307 00:28:16,730 --> 00:28:20,810 Individual experience brings about doubt about medical knowledge and authority. 308 00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:22,999 She doesn't use the words medical knowledge or authority, 309 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:30,050 but I'm interpreting what's happening there as to using those two categories of sound to alter the data as I see it, 310 00:28:31,130 --> 00:28:36,050 establishment of personal experience as a neutral observation of the accuracy of diagnostic medicine. 311 00:28:36,260 --> 00:28:40,070 So her experience means that the person might not be always right. 312 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:46,280 Okay, this is a fact. Knowing when she says this is a fact is she's not trying to scare people. 313 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:47,930 It's just something that did happen. 314 00:28:50,020 --> 00:28:56,990 And the use of her subjective experience, her intuition to suggest, is a basis for interpreting doubt something along those lines. 315 00:28:57,350 --> 00:29:01,639 So, you know, down to some something she can understand. 316 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,890 And she's interpreting her intuition as an interaction going on now of some sort about how she understands what's happening. 317 00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:10,549 And again, I've used the term subjective experience. 318 00:29:10,550 --> 00:29:17,720 That's my categorisation. I need to think about why I'm using those terms to me, but that's how I want to interpret that. 319 00:29:18,050 --> 00:29:20,510 And I've done that for all of these categories sharing. 320 00:29:21,650 --> 00:29:27,110 So my message to all of you and at home is the amount of stories that I've heard of women going for diagnosis, 321 00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:30,620 being told, don't you worry about a thing, it's fine. Again, very simple. 322 00:29:30,620 --> 00:29:35,419 Just do a paraphrased description through the story she's heard shared. 323 00:29:35,420 --> 00:29:38,210 She's come to understand that this is also the experience of others. 324 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:45,500 So she's telling us, you know, not try to use any any terms that are alien to the to the quotes himself. 325 00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:51,799 But when I start to interpret that, what do I know about stories? I know stories can be charming of stories can be empowering. 326 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,730 And as they demonstrated to the actual performance of telling one's own story. 327 00:29:55,940 --> 00:30:02,150 So you have to remember, there's more than one story going on. She's recounting the stories of other people that told her. 328 00:30:02,390 --> 00:30:06,740 She's also telling a story to the audience and the people at home. 329 00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:10,790 So, you know, different storytelling, things going on that stories about stories. 330 00:30:13,380 --> 00:30:14,760 And these can be empowering acts. 331 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,460 And we know that the MeToo campaign and the moment, you know, people telling their story helps them on what's happening. 332 00:30:21,390 --> 00:30:24,450 You know, it's part of that. So this is this empowering. That's and again, 333 00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:31,979 she doesn't talk about this about being an empowering act or performativity all these things say something about how I'm seeing what she's doing. 334 00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:37,770 I'm sorry to tip it up using my own knowledge and the message for everyone, the audience, 335 00:30:37,950 --> 00:30:42,390 you know, we all have this in common, she says, Is everybody here and everybody at home? 336 00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:46,500 There's no distinguishing between, Oh, this is just for people here. This is just for women. 337 00:30:46,770 --> 00:30:51,780 This is just for Americans, everybody. So she's categorising who she's talking to. 338 00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:57,630 The subject of this in sociological terms, has this particular thing in common. 339 00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:04,920 There's a commonality we all share because someone is in a white coat using big medical instruments doesn't necessarily mean they're right. 340 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,220 Okay. And again, just a brief description of that, despite what they know and how they come across doctors. 341 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,809 And the only way to know what is right okay. Is challenge. 342 00:31:15,810 --> 00:31:21,180 If the doctor says patient, patient does. I do that by questioning the medical symbols. 343 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,680 She doesn't talk about medical symbols. I interpret these different things as symbols of medicine. 344 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,269 Okay. This is the message is giving out to people. You have a right to question and go back. 345 00:31:30,270 --> 00:31:32,280 If you're not sure, go back to the doctors. 346 00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:38,100 But the person doing the questioning is you have that responsibility to think about that in that way and down 347 00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:44,190 to not knowing based on subjective knowledge are a legitimate way to basis to to question and take action. 348 00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:50,020 You don't need to go back to your clinician, which is, you know, we are homemade protesters and thinking, 349 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,360 okay, just having enough doubts about what's going on, no question is legitimate. 350 00:31:54,930 --> 00:32:01,670 Okay. Which is a different way to thinking about perhaps how we think about patients should and shouldn't take. 351 00:32:02,190 --> 00:32:05,790 Okay. So it's trying to understand this context from these points of view. 352 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,560 Okay. And how she's made sense of what's happened to her. So. 353 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:18,120 What I did is that. So what I'm going to do now is just bring all that together and show you how you would write that up. 354 00:32:18,510 --> 00:32:23,310 So a little bit more working up and out. And then again, start to engage some of the data, some of the literature, 355 00:32:24,570 --> 00:32:29,880 which that's to address some of these questions about power and medical establishment and all these things. 356 00:32:31,470 --> 00:32:38,760 So just taking those descriptive bits, putting them in into a paragraph, reading around to make grammatical sense, what have you. 357 00:32:38,770 --> 00:32:46,800 But essentially we have, you know, and this would go into the finding section and some point, you know, just describing the data, 358 00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:53,100 kind of the account describes how much medicine can and does get things wrong and that is something we should all recognise is true. 359 00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:56,450 So to the she's her she has shared, 360 00:32:56,460 --> 00:33:02,340 she's come to understand that this is also the experience of others doctors with their symbols of medical authority, 361 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,110 not the only way to know what is true. 362 00:33:04,590 --> 00:33:11,249 She explains that there are times when your intuition can be a basis upon which you act and that you have an individual responsibility to act upon. 363 00:33:11,250 --> 00:33:14,820 Your doubts naturally should take that out. That's not what she says. 364 00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:18,780 So I can see how a very witness and how I would edit it again. 365 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:25,380 Proof it, and that's it. But that's part of the process. This is where things start to get interesting, I would say. 366 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,420 This is where we start to add some value in terms of how we thinking about it. 367 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,489 I'm not going to think about what she's done in terms of the categories that are in my head and about 368 00:33:32,490 --> 00:33:39,570 how I understand the literature around people acting in terms of getting their cancer diagnosis. 369 00:33:41,130 --> 00:33:44,760 Part of that I'm not going to talk about Kaitlyn will talk about this participant or this person. 370 00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:50,250 It's time to recognise that this voice is my voice. Now it's me interacting with this data. 371 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,000 So I'm not trying to pretend that this is Kylie's account of what's happening. 372 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,680 I am adding stuff to this, okay? And I need to respect that in the way I write it. 373 00:33:59,460 --> 00:34:01,560 This person's experience has brought into doubt, 374 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:08,310 medical knowledge and authority an outcome that has reasons to be a neutral observation about the accuracy of diagnostic medicine. 375 00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:14,640 Questioning medical symbols can be seen to take both authority and responsibility away from the medical establishment. 376 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:21,120 The use of subjective experience intuition. It suggested a legitimate basis for interpreting doubts. 377 00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:25,260 What is also notable is a place that sharing stories has both. 378 00:34:25,260 --> 00:34:29,760 The act of listening and performing of telling in this account have been empowering acts. 379 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,190 Moreover, the message proffered is for everyone. This suggests an audience with something in common. 380 00:34:35,790 --> 00:34:40,770 So standard to read into this. Think about it in particular is in particular sociological categories. 381 00:34:41,070 --> 00:34:47,540 And I'm going to come back to this in a second and show you how I've done in recognising this and this. 382 00:34:47,670 --> 00:34:52,770 I've separate this paragraph out because I started when I was writing this thought and I'm going to push it a little bit further. 383 00:34:53,280 --> 00:35:01,439 Okay. In recognising this, we can point to how individual subjective acts Kellie's description of what she's doing to own an imaginative, 384 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,120 imagined collective of citizens. She's imagining that the people are like her, 385 00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:11,850 are in a similar situation to mobilise a language of subjective awareness as a basis 386 00:35:11,850 --> 00:35:15,510 upon which to doubt medical authority and take responsibility to preserve their health. 387 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:19,200 Okay, so really push that interpretation. Okay. 388 00:35:19,740 --> 00:35:25,620 And I'll show you how a little bit how I've done that often. So I'm going to come back to that in a second. 389 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,320 Just to recap where we're up to, we're moving up. 390 00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:34,230 As you can see, we're moving further and further away from the original data, but we're adding value by thinking about that, 391 00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:39,480 using different categories to think about what is happening that make it a little bit strange, what's going on. 392 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,840 So let's think about how we might interpret it in different ways. 393 00:35:43,530 --> 00:35:48,150 What we need to think about now also is that we're not just dealing with the states within the whole load of literature as well. 394 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:53,820 We're not the first people to look at this, first people to think about health care and patients relationships with clinicians. 395 00:35:54,060 --> 00:35:58,500 So we need to go back to that data that we started with, that literature we started with, 396 00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,190 and start to interact with that as we're doing our writing and our thinking. 397 00:36:02,820 --> 00:36:12,450 Okay. And the way I would ask my question to myself is how is this data problematise the preconceived ideas or concepts as understood in literature? 398 00:36:12,860 --> 00:36:16,980 So there's no I'm not looking to say this is an example of medicalisation, you know, 399 00:36:17,220 --> 00:36:22,680 I want to think about how this may or may not be medicalisation or say that fault. 400 00:36:23,850 --> 00:36:28,290 So how have I moved out, started to move out of this data a little bit, if you like, 401 00:36:28,530 --> 00:36:32,429 by engaging the literature and thinking about it using sociological concepts. 402 00:36:32,430 --> 00:36:43,080 So the other ideas I put in bold key terms when I handed and interpreted what's happening, you know, 403 00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:47,670 terms like medical knowledge and authority speak to a particular literature as much as they do to the data. 404 00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:54,060 They bridge space, medical authority, responsibility, interpretation, 405 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,320 all these different key words all speak to a different type of literature organised by data. 406 00:36:59,340 --> 00:37:04,139 My thinking about that data in a particular way, and when you read a paragraph like this, 407 00:37:04,140 --> 00:37:10,980 when you're picking up qualitative research, you can see that what you start to see, you know, if this was a film. 408 00:37:11,420 --> 00:37:17,210 Filter would happen and you would be able to start to jump out at you. Is that see this is where the authors I think that that's what they're doing. 409 00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:25,400 They're using these particular terms in these ways so that I can understand the data slightly differently than once originally put. 410 00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:32,300 So just to move towards the outs with this would be a whole other lecture. 411 00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:36,260 And you know, if I'm he invites me back, I'll do that one. 412 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,550 But, um, how do we go back to the, to the literature? 413 00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:46,830 I got another slide now. So if you went back to that original, that slide with the background, I could go back and go, right. 414 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,200 Well, these are the literatures and I want to talk to them, pick up this account and start to engage with that. 415 00:37:51,590 --> 00:37:56,450 Or I could go and look at these are the things that that are out there that people are talking about that this might talk to. 416 00:37:56,750 --> 00:38:00,020 I mean, you know, these kind of these are an example of medicalisation. 417 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,470 You know, to get into that, we need to know a lot more about medicalisation how people think about it. 418 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,340 The book's field articles excellent for that references at the end of this. 419 00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:16,420 But we could say she's moving away from medical establishment. 420 00:38:16,660 --> 00:38:20,950 She's talking about taking her own position that this isn't medicalisation of total, 421 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,550 that she's putting a lot of distance between the patient and medicine. 422 00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:29,890 But we can also see that, you know, she doesn't get away from medicine either. 423 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,800 She's all things of through those terms about going back, about how she's engaging her body. 424 00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:39,880 You know, that that language is is part of being drawn into the medical discourse. 425 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,250 She doesn't go off and look for complementary medicines. 426 00:38:42,610 --> 00:38:47,860 And, you know, she's thinking about it in a particular way so we can insight and interrogate this data. 427 00:38:48,130 --> 00:38:55,180 So that concept and go back to that fact interpretation paragraph from complete rewrite and to to think about those things. 428 00:38:55,660 --> 00:39:04,260 And we can do that with all these other things. But I won't I won't go through them all at this point because it's an awesome discussion. 429 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:13,900 So. Hopefully, as I said at the beginning, it's a really simple message and hopefully I've confused you enough, 430 00:39:14,050 --> 00:39:17,340 but we get to the end and sort of go, Yeah, okay, I can still live that. Okay. 431 00:39:17,530 --> 00:39:21,790 I might not agree with how you've done it and that's brilliant. That's exactly how it should be. 432 00:39:21,910 --> 00:39:26,080 Should be able to see enough from what I've done to understand how I've done it and to disagree with it. 433 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:33,760 Okay. Hopefully that times I will convince you. And in terms of my creative with the people who read my work in the I think that's fine. 434 00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:39,900 I look, I can see how you've got that and I agree, but you can see that as an intellectual craft that okay, 435 00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:46,270 it does take practice and it does and it involves a particular amount whether you have to show how you've done it. 436 00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:52,850 And that's often down to the general as much as anything. But if you need if somebody comes back to you, says, how did you get here? 437 00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:56,180 As you do, how did you get here? You know, I can't follow you. 438 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,780 I need to be able to explain myself to you. And if I can't, then there's something wrong with the process I've gone. 439 00:40:01,330 --> 00:40:05,190 And that's the qualitative and that's the beginning of qualitative research. 440 00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:09,250 She's been able to explain how I got from here this data to this interpretation. 441 00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:17,140 If you can do that, if there's a problem that does take creativity and does take inspiration, sometimes you do need to go to the places. 442 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:24,340 You do need to change your thinking. And if you need to find ways to do that, then I'm creative and you can sometimes feel inspired. 443 00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:29,080 That's, you know, that's part of the process. But it must be a reflexive process. 444 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,610 Must be think about it. You can't I can't put it into a computer and then it spit it out. 445 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:40,390 The when you need to understand your place and how you've interacted with that data and be able to account for that in your writing. 446 00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:47,170 Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for putting that and any questions.