Welcome to part one of our podcast, Exploring the Fundamentals of Leadership with Professor Carl Hennigan.
Professor Kemal Mitani is asking the questions.
And today we'll be exploring the importance of communication, emotional intelligence and being more of a tortoise rather than a hare as a leader.
You'll be able to find part two on the evidence based health care podcast series.
Oh, hello, I'm Carl Mitani, and I'm here today to interview Carl Hannigan, who is professor of evidence based medicine at the University of Oxford.
We're going to be discussing leadership today.
We'll be exploring some of Carl's own experience of developing as a leader and observations and the state of leadership that he's experienced,
particularly in health care.
We'll be interested, particularly what other health care leaders can learn from leaders in related and unrelated sectors and some of the cholent,
common challenges that emerge as you navigate through your own leadership career.
So now I'd like to ask Carl to introduce himself and also just tell us a bit about your current role, Carl, and how your career started.
Yeah, well, thanks, Campbell. My name's Carl.
I'm gonna just said at the moment I have a number of roles and the first within the universe is I'm professor of evidence based medicine,
where I have two roles in effect. One is based around teaching and the other role is based around research.
And then with that, I'm also an urgent care general practitioner, working weekends.
Whereas the direct clinical care and seeing patients and that's the sorts of roles that exist within that,
there are different bits of each of the jobs. But I guess I guess I came to Oxford in 1994 as a mature student.
A ton of people said you may be old, but not necessarily mature.
HENNIGAN For that. I came as a 26 year old,
having had a career beforehand when I left school at 16 with no great O levels and went and did a career in lots of different aspects
and then came as a medical student and qualified in 2000 in Oxford and then did a variety of roles which led me to academic medicine.
And there has been in the Department of Primary Care and been director of the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine in 2010.
So it's been a decade now.
Testico, and as you went through these different roles, as you describe, you know, even healthcare, then through your medical career.
And then now as a graduate of medicine and now as director.
Did you see yourself as an emerging leader through these different phases? Yeah, I think it's interesting.
I don't think it did.
And so we get much more into it because I think what happens is it's you you look back into the sort of bits of leadership are coming.
But I think what you're doing is you're developing new rooms, you base.
And your own knowledge and building the expertise and experience as you go,
you suddenly then start to get to a point where suddenly you're you're leading a small team or suddenly building a new programme.
And in doing that, you suddenly realise, look at this, what the skills of rebuilding to get to this point there.
And I think there is a transition with everybody where at some point what happens is at the top of the tree, they go, you realise you are right.
You are the person who has to make the decisions. You have to create the dynamism, the ideas and push things forward.
And suddenly you're like, oh, I was relying on that professor. That person was in charge and suddenly it's you.
And that's the transition that people find difficult. And one of the keys I think about you is if you get into a leadership, that is.
You've got to try and also bring closer people on way of saying, well, get some responsibility.
Let them believe that their approach to being in charge empowered so that when they're there,
they're ready because there is a tendency for people to go.
Well, look, I'm in charge and everybody below me, I'm going to manage stuff that they do the right thing.
And I think that's journey of leadership that when you do look back, you can sort of see here right back, even even into primary school in areas.
You can see areas where you were doing things that way suddenly go.
I actually was in a position then where I actually I was taking some ownership of taking the responsibility.
And I think if you look at that, that's the key to me. At some point, you get to a point where it goes.
Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm having to drive the initiative, take forward the ideas, work with a team.
And and I think it's it's not always apparent at the outset that that's what you're doing.
But when you look back, you can see these things were occurring all the time.
Just what you say, could you as a leader, have always had that sort of drive underpinning you?
Well, no, because I think how you look at it and strategy of who you are and what you like doing.
And I think that's the key for me is I like problems.
I love problems and going into areas where you go. This is a big task.
And there's something we want to do, Bill. So I like problem solving.
Second is, I like working with teams. I like the team aspect.
So we've got a problem. Who's got what bits of the job to do?
And if we get to the end of this, we can build something much world class and we'll be proud of it for on the journey.
We'll all be like, hey, it was a lot of fun. We had to work hard.
We got to be an innovative. And third is, you know, is the heart of the issue.
It's the soul. The more of a problem it is, the more you have to bringing your expertise and experience, the more I engaged I am with that.
And it is that can be on an even on your own level.
So even if you're developing your own leadership and I'll give a good example
for people where I don't something where I've had to build my skill base,
I realised very early on in that in the remit of academia that you have to be a good communicator.
And I've always been a good talker and a good teacher.
But if I put my skill based on rights and if I went back about 10 years ago, I put my skill base of writing really quiet at the lower end.
And I'd say that's one of the products of me leaving school at 16.
I didn't have the ability to build that skill in English language and literature writing.
So I set myself a test where I said I'm going to learn to communicate through writing.
And that's been a 10 year journey which I've taken on continually build my skill level, keep pushing my boundaries of what I want to do.
Put your neck out and sticking articles out when you're not quite ready.
And now I feel like I'm getting the. So that's me building my skill base.
And that's me leading for myself. If you lie and I think that's an important attribute if you look at what you're good at,
but what you're not good at and what you require for the job honour, I think that's an important aspect,
because I think there's something about if you look at sports is a good area is when you look at sports,
you think, well, here's a captain who's the leader. It generally is the person who is one of the best players in the team.
No, always, because sometimes the best players are not the best communicators or the best leaders.
But generally, somebody is going to be on the bench and on the pitch.
And I think that's an important aspect. If you're going to lead at some point, people are going to look to you and say, well, let me warn the teacher.
Are you actually at that level because you've got to lead by example? And everywhere I've been.
I've often thought you've got to develop this skill base. You've got to be really up there.
You don't have to be better than everybody is not a competition,
but you have to feel comfortable when we're talking about communication or dissemination or what we're going to do in this project.
I understand what we're trying to achieve.
And then having a great team around you is part of that fun factor where you go, look, there's lots of different bits to this problem.
And if we all work in one together, we'll solve it.
And I think that's important within your own ability to say I'm leading for myself and
combining that then and taking that vision with other people who want to come on that journey.
So you mentioned communication being a massive part of that.
What would you say? Call you some of your other other leadership skills?
Yeah, I think their leadership come through the environment you're in and the aspects, you know, very young.
I often remember having to hold my own with my dad in terms of the conversations that could be political,
could be about debates, having an opinion, having some thought processes about.
What do you think about the current strategy in Cauvin? What do you think about the current position in terms of the left vs. the right?
What does that mean?
Having an ability to have an opinion, then reflect on that and then take that opinion forward and test it out and then testing it out.
You are looking to see reflect to some point. If we go down this direction, to what extent is this reflected in the wider audience?
Is it a grouping that's more likely to be beneficial or harmful?
And I think that communication is really interesting because I think there are two aspects to communication.
One is having a network of people around you where you can test out your own thoughts and ideas.
And you need that, because many of my ideas are what I consider important to me.
For some of them are not practical. Not vote for not show up.
And if you like the embryonic and I'm thinking, oh, this is an idea, many of the things we've set out to do.
I've got some real black. But that's okay, because when you talk to your small group,
that's an important aspect of you testing out the water to Econolodge vs. the second
argument or communication strategies once you've got your thought process right.
You know what? Your vision. Then you've got to direct that to a wider audience.
Something. And that's when the skill base is required.
That's all there are two aspects to it. That I think are really important.
Nothing. Communication is a really interesting aspect, and, you know, it's it's the job.
I say our communication jobs, each thing is a communication job.
You you have to communicate with the audience when you're teaching.
It's the ultimate communication because at the end of the day, they're going to come out of that session and go,
gosh, that was pretty good, or that was a bit boring, wasn't really listening, wasn't talking to us.
That seemed to be rote reading of some sort of pre written agreement.
And we've all seen lectures and sessions where we've gone jumped up with a book.
I was really looking forward to listening to that purpose and I thought it was amazing.
And then I listened to the lecture and it was dope.
So teaching is an important aspect of what we do in communication, but also general practise in communication.
You have to go and talk to people. You have to talk to them about sharing information and decision.
And it's interesting in terms of when you start to think about communication and you get to some high level.
For instance, when you're doing it on TV or media, you really have to then even sharpen your tools again.
So what you're doing is pushing up the level of where your comfort zone is and then going,
oh, now the next 30 seconds really matter in terms of what I say.
So I've got to make a very clear, articulate point. Otherwise, people are going to go away and go, what the hell did you say?
And what matters, Rizza, is everything. Are you being yourself? Are you comfortable?
Are you prepared to go out there and say, I have something important to say now?
Often what happens to us in life is there's a fear factor that comes in.
I think it was Steve features called called the in a chimp and they only showed which sits there.
And there are many, many people who put this. Is that that inner voice that comes up to you and says, oh, I wouldn't do that right now.
And I wouldn't say that. And I think that's a really important aspect in your confidence.
And at that point, that is the point.
When you actually should be saying, I'm at the right point, I want to be,
you know, because actually I'm feeling a bit anxious and feeling a bit tense.
I'm about to say something that is important. But if I get it wrong, people will judge me.
Now, that's what holds most people back, is that little bit of fear factor that says you're not going to be perfect.
It is not going to come out as though you want it to 100 percent.
You can't do that like.
But what I also think then when we're children and we young and we go into these uncertain positions, we embrace them with a sense of joy and energy.
And then as we go through life, we seem to get pulled back so that we go.
I wouldn't go into that situation. You know what? You might lose your credibility if you now say something a bit odd.
And I think that's an incredibly important aspect.
The fear factor, the bit on his shoulder, is embracing that vs. actually listening to it and then saying, I won't go there.
And I think that would be a key attribute to people who are good leaders, is they understand that that the conscious that's holding them back.
They know how to embrace it and go, yeah, I'm right where I want to be.
And I often have that that feeling I cannot have it sometimes before a teaching session or a big talker can go,
you know, be a lot easier to be in the audience right now. There are a thousand people here listening to every word I'm about to say.
I quite like to be in the back. I want to do it that way. Go right now.
You're right where you want to be right now. Let's just relax. Can be south.
Let's go and be clear, concise. But be yourself at that moment in time.
Don't try and be somebody else. Do you think the audience wants to listen to.
Very good advice. Paul, you mentioned a couple of times in in what you've told us already about the value of communication, about working in teams.
How do you think your teams see you as a leader? Depends.
I think it's interesting, though, as a you know, that's a piece of GDP that is is that was taught to me when I was doing my general practise,
which I always resonate with about when you see the play.
One of the most important things is how did the person make you feel?
So I think seeing people is different to feeling,
and they said one of the interesting issue is when you see patients go and make me feel a bit anxious,
that person generally the consultation was to say, actually, there are probably many lots of people feel like the.
And therefore, in that sense, you can get a viewpoint on the person and understand what is going on in their row.
So generally what I'm doing is I think people can see me differently at different times.
Sometimes they can see me as assertive. Sometimes they can see me.
If it's easygoing, sometimes they'll be pressing the button all over it sometimes and standing back.
But what I want them to do is what do they feel like? And I want them to be able to feel like this is a guy who supports me.
Sometimes he'll he'll let me have a free rein. So it's like this.
Not contacting me. What's going on? I feel like nobody's got.
You got no clue. And other times, it's like getting a phone call out of the blue and asking you about certain things.
And in the most important thing within the team is that people feel empowered to get on with their job.
And once people feel empowered, my position is really start to enjoy themselves and not start to take on their own leadership roles.
It's interesting, though, people within the team would find me differently because they'll see me differently.
Some will find me a bit warmer than others. Some might find me a bit harsher than not.
And I can see that. And what I'm trying to do is use my own emotional intelligence to Ghana.
Where are we at any moment in time? What I don't think my job is to say.
Everybody has to think I'm a he's just a nice, easygoing guy.
You can come in and you'll get the way you want to be all the time. But I think it's that reflection emotionally.
What I don't see is when we do these sort of clear 360-degree things,
which are very paper driven and people seem to answer them in a sort of way that they average it, it's fine.
I'm often talking to people to garner and feel in that situation.
What did that go like? So everybody's. And that's really interesting because everybody's different in the team.
That conversation I've just had with my manager. I can tell. I can sense.
I felt stressed about it and I can feel the stress. But it's okay because I've known pushing the boundaries over here.
I'm having a difficult conversation with somebody because actually I'm putting the work back on them and saying,
you need to come up with a plan, not me. It's not my job. Otherwise, why am I not doing your job?
And that's that's slightly difficult.
And then sometimes it's just very fun and supportive because I'm like with this person, I'm like they're amazing at the job.
They just need to keep being supported. And an across that range is about how do you feel all these times?
But what I do do a lot of is with some of the people at some of the key times,
I'm touching base a lot just to connect in and go if we've got this term project that's on the priority list.
I'm touching base to say. Right. Let's get communication going.
What we need to do is be speaking every month, maybe every two weeks is a smaller group.
And what we're doing is we're not using the meetings. In effect, we're using them to keep the comms going.
Whereas what I've seen teams that are dysfunctional,
they don't speak and then they come to a meeting and they're making decisions without everybody having discussed them.
So I think I wouldn't worry so much about how people see you, but more so.
How does it make them feel and you feel in them interactions?
And I the best thing for me is when I just think, oh, that person feels supported and they're getting on with their job.
I might not know what they're doing, but I know they feel supported and they're happy.
And and if something goes wrong, my job is to go, you know what?
I'm taking the responsibility in effect. That's OK if we make some mistakes.
That's what we want to do.
And it's interesting how this world right now makes it very difficult for people to make mistakes in a way that it was easy to be on because
you're going to get called out in so many ways through social media and the wider accountability and a very administrative environment,
I suspect, where there is a bit of a culture that doesn't want people to make mistakes at the moment.
Now, I'm not talking about I'm talking about mistakes where you try and do some fun and it might lose some money.
It put a teaching scenario module out there and you run it and it loses money.
And I go, that's OK. What was the evaluation like?
The evaluation was great. All right. Now, let's fix fix the audience.
How do we fix that? We've got one bit. Let's do two bits. Let's keep fixing it.
If you go across an administrator of finance, they'll go, well, we can't run anything that loses money.
And I know can. We can because we've got to innovate. So you'll find many things that push up against you.
But I think that emotional intelligence is is a fundamental principle of what we do in terms of going forward.
How does it make you feel? Yeah, no, that's that's clearly coming through what you're saying.
And part of emotional challenge will be self awareness. I'm interested.
So you as a leader and evidence based healthcare. There must have been times when you felt really challenged and, you know, got that self-awareness.
So can you give us an insight. Some of those times and why you felt challenged?
Yeah, I suspect I actually quite like going into the challenging environment.
You know, when we first started the centre, it was too fat and insane as I came in direct.
And so the first challenge was we had no business plan, no funding.
And actually, it was just me and the centre manager, Rufe Davis, at the time and just started in place of somebody's been imposed for 20 years.
And in effect, that was a point where I went, wow. And we've got to deliver all this teaching and we've got a master's programme that's failing.
And in there, there's loads of processes of I've got to achieve all of these aims.
And how do you go about that when you feeling really anxious and actually you don't quite have all the skills to achieve it.
So that's the first thing you have to accept. You haven't got all the bits of the jigsaw and that's the second.
But if you look at the planets the second bit, then it's not too easy to go.
Actually, who's around me? You can help. Actually, there's this bright guy called Watani around.
He is actually in a GP HCF at the moment. Maybe I go and talk to him and say, look, I've got bits of the architecture, I need some help.
And all the time going out, going, oh, let's get a bit of a network of people, because actually we have loads to go go here.
And actually, I'm not gonna be able to do all of this. There are bits of the job that people are far better at me than I am.
So that's the first part. But what happens is within these situations is you start to feel uncomfortable.
And one of the key things is it can start to pervade lots of your bits of your life, that you start your heart rate goes up.
You feel a bit stressed. You're not sleeping quite as well.
And in that, you suddenly start to realise the most important thing is you got to look after yourself.
Number one. And this seems to Wendy, so people listen, it's selfish.
Well, I go look, that if you're not healthy and fair. How can you then look after all the people and take forward a plan?
And that was one of the key findings for me, was actually at that point was to say, right, you've got to start looking after yourself.
So I start taking up cycling at that point and doing quite long cycling rides like two, three hours.
And in effect, what was doing in that point was free.
My mind tiring myself out physically, which is get me energetic and healthy for allowing my mind to relax in.
To then think of a strategy, not Russian. Now within the eye, then it's part going forward.
I do this in my teaching sessions. I talk about the strategy of the tortoise and the hare.
Which everybody knows the story of the tortoise and the hare, because it goes right back to primary school.
When we teach it and you think, why was people teaching you things like times, tables?
All of these English rules? And they were talking to you about the tortoise and the hare, because actually it's a really important story for life.
Because what you're doing there is saying, actually, if you're going to be successful,
you're talking about a plan that is a tall toys that just keeps moving forward, forward, forward.
And that's really interesting as opposed to what I see a lot of unsuccessful people in their heads doing something they tear around.
What are you up to now? I'm interested in this six months later. How's it going?
Oh, it didn't go quite well. I'm now on to something new and I'm going Molly.
If it wouldn't have worked in six months, how can you solve something that problematic in such a short period of time?
Whereas the total toys, what you do is you say, look, here's a problem and actually it's gonna take me three to five years to start making inroads.
And if you think of it that way. But what you can't do is wait two, three years and start a project.
That means you've got to be really urgent. On day one to kick start what's happening.
So all the time now, I'm thinking now 12, 18 months, two years ahead, even five years ahead.
We set in off trains, the Fords. Closing some things down.
We're opening some things up. We've been urging about there's a real need to get the meetings in now.
But actually, it's a total waste programme that actually it's going to be three years before it's successful.
And I think that's the bit is recognising the impact it has in in itself.
Going forward, there is a bit. Where I find what I find the most difficult thing.
And I think this is for us to think about our role is when you're feeling you're being micromanaged.
And that makes me feel wholly uncomfortable. And that's where somebody is giving you all of the responsibility.
But not all of the control. And that puts everybody in an uncomfortable position, because if you haven't got all of the control.
We've got all the responsibility.
Somebody at some point will bear down on you and start saying to you, you get in that room, you should be doing it this way.
You should be thinking about it. This will come in and start to blame you in certain situations.
Whereas so we work really hard and I work really hard to say you've got the responsibility and you've got the control.
You make the decisions. And I think that's an important aspect where that's the thing that makes me most uncomfortable at the moment.
And so if somebody wants to give me all of the responsibility now but doesn't want to give me the control, I'm not gonna sign up to the deal.
I'm going to walk away until we get to a point where I go, no, if I'm the director,
I have control of all of these elements because I have all the responsibility.
And I think that's an important aspect. So give it an example.
They might say you're the director. You have all the responsibility.
But I'm in charge of the purse strings because, well, if I want to appoint somebody, you're going to say no.
Well, then I've not got control of the situation. And that's an important aspect of understanding, responsibility and control.
And watch out. You need both of them if you want to take forward leadership and initiatives.
So we've talked about teamwork. We've talked about healthy selfishness.
You mentioned the importance of that. And we've also talked about, you know, being able to stand up for your own vision and your beliefs.
I'm fascinated to know more about who's.
Has anyone influenced you, your leadership style that you look to to sort of lend themselves to some of the traits that you've described already?
Yeah, well, I'm gonna. Well, you know, everybody I'll put my dad in there in the first aspect.
An inside look, incredibly influential. He was a guy who read a lot.
And I think you have to be well read.
So even, you know, in them days, you would read a paper from front to back and for an hour every day and then have some discussion or debate.
So I think that's important. Second, it was incredibly relaxed about understanding that you don't go in when you're feeling anxious,
the way you express it, step back and you go wait to that anxiety pass before we jump.
And that's an important aspect because often in the same position, we can be rash and do things we regret.
So that that's one. I don't mean a word with a lot of people.
But then let's come to the health care scenario where we were. There's been a quite a few people that I work with, quite frail.
All of the healthcare scenario where they've been thoughtful, interesting and helped me think about the strategy.
Each one of them. You can see I've looked at bits out of them.
So, you know, I had a great, great pleasure to work with dates.
If you are met as a medical student, passionate.
Forceful, assertive, knew what he wanted to achieve, but also was a great mentor to students and people who'd come along.
He would always say so if somebody comes in the room with an idea where they are coming in, interested and engaged, and your job is to shake the idea.
What if they come out of that room with their idea crushed? You've failed. And you go, Yeah.
And I see people I went to see such a body on my idea. And he just said it was a waste of time.
And I can never do that. Let him go out there and we might change it. You might say I wouldn't do it that way.
But think about this. Think about that. Let him go out.
So loads of caveats about little bits of how to go about your daily job, whether it was in have a writing day.
Make sure you communicate important your ideas out every week.
That was another thought process. So there's that.
And then loads of really impressive people throughout my time in Oxford,
whether it's people like Polglase, you know, Goldman, all of them people incredibly useful to work with.
But I'm going to say, actually, of all the people I've worked with is there are two bits.
I love working with students. And that's been incredibly interesting because in any project, if you work with a student,
they're always going to say at least one thing where you go, oh, my God, there's a lightbulb just going off.
What an amazing thing to think about. And they just often don't know, and that's our job, these as academics and professor level.
Wow, what a great idea. Well, I never would have thought that.
How do we now make this operation alive? So that's up to that's been important.
The second aspect, which I also think is an important aspect of teens and I'll put this back on QVC is is what are the things
that really makes me sort of feel we're in the right direction is that people linger and hang about in the T.
They don't come and go, so I always look at teams when they're like when they turn the staff over every two or three years.
I'm like, Jeez, man, the coffee must be pretty bad about it. But in there, there restroom in some way.
But I should let people know our centre manager a decade now, same time.
And I've just got off the phone with our discuss and I'm like, okay. Having a chat.
She's ringing me asking is there anything I need to do today?
And I didn't ask to ask it yourself. It's been lingering around for fifteen years now.
Never in the team. So and then all the group of people we work with outside, we're talking decades.
John Brassie from Trip. Tom Jefferson. Fifteen years.
So having that group of people where you've worked and I'm not saying group thing because they're all think differently.
And boy, some of these people difficult in the whole process of the time, you know, and that's what we want.
But building that and having that rapport and that approach means when we bring in a new people, are we bringing in lots of student?
Hundred and fifty students onboard. We have a team of people who reflect in thinking about the strategy.
And I'm learning lots in that because I'm not one for doing it that way.
That was administered great by that person. We've just got a new person.
Join the team, administer, administered the teaching in in the undergraduate medicine.
I'm like, wow, that person's gone. It's so much better than I got a job. I'm not sure I am.
I've just learnt some something and I watch somebody do some teaching the other day are defo direct.
And that was really cool. I really like that. So all of them bits are happening all the time.
And and what I'm saying is, is it there are two bits, something happening.
One is you're watching people who are your mentors or people you work for or anything like that.
But I don't like that deal. And we talk about that in teaching, don't we?
We say, look, good teachers collect material. And if it works.
Use it. And that's what we do. I like that teaching. I'm going to steal.
Let me use it. So there's a certain I there were a group of people who give you little bits of X,
but you as a person have to create an environment where you have relationships with people who were good, bloody good at what you do.
And I often think of it in terms of Steve Jobs's book because he talks about A team and B team players.
And that's a bit dichotomous because I think everybody's on a journey.
But generally, if you're going to be working with people who are really good at what they do,
then you should hang onto them and hang onto their coattails, because what they're saying is you're a good person to work with, too.
And that that 18 dynamic is what creates productivity and effective outcomes.
And therefore, what you're looking all the time is for that fact where you go.
Actually, if I work with this person, look at what happens. And sometimes it can become dynamic in a way that you never foresaw.
So, for instance, in this outbreak in the Kovil outbreak, Tom Jefferson, who I've known for a long time, we worked together.
And you worked on the reviews when we did the Tamiflu reviews and that talk from 2009 to 2014,
five years to do publish a couple of systematic review papers.
But boy, were they influential in what they did.
Because two and a half years to get the data and then we had a transition where we didn't work together for quite some time but stayed in touch.
Little bits of doing that. And then within this current outbreak of the cove, it we've talked I have talked to him daily about the issues.
And in that we start to have a productivity of here's what we're thinking, let's disseminate our thinking.
We're uncertain about this intervention. Let's write to open communicating.
So it brings that dynamism together, which you can't do if he suddenly said,
I'm going to work with somebody because this summit really important and let's start working together now.
Having them relationships pre-existing, you've been building means when something really important comes along,
you've got an opportunity to respond in a high quality a.T.M way.
And I think that's important. And and in that, you'll learn a lot.
If that person is you listening or not? I don't know. I would've looked at it differently.
Now, I think this is interesting again. Because there's often a bit inside you.
And people will recognise this where we go. I want all the glory.
It should be all me now. And that's something that jumps out of all of us.
It's the inner self if it weighs.
And so with the bad behaviour that goes, you know, whereas when that happens to me as I cheque it and go out on a minute,
my product will come down a notch in my seeking my my own self, actually promoting what I want to achieve for myself.
The product will get worse. Therefore, what I'm always thinking about is the output.
The end game. What is it we're hoping to achieve? What will be the best output?
It's the best output is just me. Then I wouldn't join forces with somebody in the first place.
And so I'm always thinking of what are we trying to achieve here is a really high quality product and to do that.
I often find I can't do that on myself, on my own.
Probably do it for a nice little talk, for a minute talk. But if I'm trying to write something really important or articulate or put an idea,
so I'm thinking I need somebody else with me because it would be a better idea and not that be the important output.
And then it'll come back towards and say, oh, by the way, it was wrote by you.
So I'm just going to pick you up on that call. That's very interesting.
So would you say then I'm just thinking about future in a Abian APHC healthcare leaders.
I think what I'm what I'm hearing from you is the value of peer to peer support.
You know, you mentioned some of the people you've worked with. Are you saying that no matter what position you are in your career.
Professor Ravier, you still value that sort of peer to peer support and the opportunity to bounce ideas off people?
I'm saying it's actually more important than what we thought,
that more important than the little bit the bits we see from other people outside awards or the little bits where we go like that.
Right? A lot. The way somebody do that. I'll take that. We'll try and use that word.
But I'll give you the best example I can of this peer to peer support.
One of my good friends and colleagues is Professor Rafael Pereira.
He's professor of statistics in Department of Primary. I think we are coming up to a round about I think we're in the 90s of joint apitz because.
And that goes back now,
I think about 17 years in a production line where he was a junior statistician when I was starting as an academic clinical fellow.
And I just thought, wow, this guy knows so much more about stats than I know.
I need to hang around with this guy and learn a lot of things about statistics.
And in doing that, I used to go in and go. I'm not quite sure about this. We'd have a conversation break.
I go, let's go down the pub and continue this conversation.
And no, I wouldn't I wouldn't say sometimes come to the pub with us because if you don't like IBM, you don't like epidemiologists.
You've got to be very bored because we will sit in the pub for three or four hours,
having few drinks, talking about ideas or trying to understand the issues.
And I was only doing that a week ago, said 17 years in, still doing the same where I'm going.
What about this issue of Eakins? What about this? I'm struggling with this in funding of for.
I'm thinking about this summer. What do you think? And all of that info is it's been fantastic for 17 years.
I'm hoping he would say I've gone on to be head of one of a really large staff department.
It would have been similar,
but I think that is more important than trying to say somehow there's somebody out there is going to get me to that leadership.
And I think it's having people with skill sets as well.
When you think they're important and you want to know more about it.
So it's incredibly important to me in epidemiology and EPM that I understand the quantitative aspects of what we do.
And and in doing that, I'm working with a couple of guides now in a similar coming along.
And I'm like, wow, this is great. These guys are even bringing a new level of thinking, to my knowledge.
And we've been working together a couple years and I'm still working in fifteen years.
It'll be around an impressive effect. And I think that stability in what you do is incredibly important to your success as a leader.
Thank you for listening to part one of our exploring the fundamentals of leadership with Professor Carl Hennigan.
You'll be able to find part two on the evidence based healthcare podcast series.