1
00:00:00,550 --> 00:00:05,830
Welcome to part two of our podcast, Exploring the Fundamentals of Leadership with Professor Carl Hanigan.

2
00:00:05,830 --> 00:00:08,960
Professor Kamar Mitani continues his questions to Carl.

3
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:16,390
And in this discussion, we explore where your motivation as leader comes from succession planning, seeking, mentoring.

4
00:00:16,390 --> 00:00:22,720
How leaders can engage with the media and the wider world. Plus, strategies for managing your work life balance.

5
00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:29,070
We hope you enjoy. And it sounds like all your your you haven't lost that hunger for new knowledge.

6
00:00:29,070 --> 00:00:33,780
You were just talking about learning from students. You are talking about learning from other statisticians.

7
00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:39,090
I take it that hasn't left you? Yeah, I think that's an important aspect of the teaching.

8
00:00:39,090 --> 00:00:46,390
You see, the number one thing about teaching and writing and communicating is I'm often trying to say, do I really understand this?

9
00:00:46,390 --> 00:00:52,160
And the issues? And in doing that, can I communicate? And if I do, I think I understand it.

10
00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:58,420
But there's so many things where we touch the surface of knowledge.

11
00:00:58,420 --> 00:01:08,850
Now, there's a tendency for us to want to say, I have all the knowledge and therefore I have all the expertise and I should supply all the opinions.

12
00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:11,620
As opposed to that's what's great about evidence based medicine,

13
00:01:11,620 --> 00:01:19,260
is you trying to say when I have a question in trying to answer that question, what is the available scientific evidence to say?

14
00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:25,510
How does that reduce my uncertainties? And in doing that, how can I communicate that forward?

15
00:01:25,510 --> 00:01:34,630
There's a sense that we should be seen to be all knowing and all knowledgeable, and that to me seems an untenable position.

16
00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:37,870
That breaks down really quickly. You just get caught out.

17
00:01:37,870 --> 00:01:43,060
Whereas when you're trying to say, faced with this question, what type of evidence would you use to answer it?

18
00:01:43,060 --> 00:01:48,760
How do you use that to inform the decision making? I think it's incredibly interesting.

19
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:57,430
I have to say is is as I've gone along. Is like the knowledge requirements have got greater.

20
00:01:57,430 --> 00:02:01,090
And you just can't quite believe in any area of law.

21
00:02:01,090 --> 00:02:09,050
Oh my gosh, this so much interesting information here that can help make a better decision that actually, yes, I am really hungry.

22
00:02:09,050 --> 00:02:16,130
And I think that's one of my drivers is I I'm really passionate about.

23
00:02:16,130 --> 00:02:29,720
Filling them knowledge gaps now in understanding myself and this this is is one of the things is sometimes I can be a bit of a procrastinator.

24
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:37,940
And and that's because I understand how I work, because once I start to work on something, I won't let it go.

25
00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:44,180
And I'll be all over it. And I'm like, we're in there and it can be exhausting, time consuming.

26
00:02:44,180 --> 00:02:50,540
And I work sometimes in the evenings and weekends and into the night because I'm like, I'm so enjoying this.

27
00:02:50,540 --> 00:02:52,670
And I'm I'm all over it.

28
00:02:52,670 --> 00:03:01,040
So sometimes I recognise that in myself, but also in the team around me, because I like once we start, we're going to make this happen.

29
00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,950
We're not going to take our foot off the gas until it goes.

30
00:03:03,950 --> 00:03:12,650
Therefore, sometimes I'm delaying things until I feel ready or there's a gap in the team that somebody has got some resources to help me.

31
00:03:12,650 --> 00:03:19,370
But what we're not going to do is once we start, we are not going to stop until we've completed that task at hand.

32
00:03:19,370 --> 00:03:23,480
And this is the other part of the total toys, which I think is really interesting.

33
00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:29,720
That's why you really have to ask yourself, if we do this project, what difference will it make?

34
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:36,260
What will it lead to? What knowledge will I have gained? Or will we have built some of that world class?

35
00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:44,380
And if you can't understand that, don't start. Because if you don't have the end game in mind, how will we know when you get there?

36
00:03:44,380 --> 00:03:49,340
Because there's always going to be bets on the road where you're going to run out resources.

37
00:03:49,340 --> 00:03:53,930
We're going to feel tired or you're going to want to give up.

38
00:03:53,930 --> 00:03:56,700
But you shouldn't do that at that point. It should be the ongoing law.

39
00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:01,650
Remember why we started this is a point now to double down and move forward my efforts.

40
00:04:01,650 --> 00:04:07,300
And I think that idea. Or understanding before we start.

41
00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:10,480
Where's the end? It is really important.

42
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:18,070
So, for instance, when we developing a new MSA, I say to people that go right there within a year, it's got to be a no, no, go, go.

43
00:04:18,070 --> 00:04:23,560
We've got three years to make it viable, five years for it to be a world class product.

44
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:31,030
That's the end game in mind in five years. We are going to be the world leaders in evidence symphysis the go to place.

45
00:04:31,030 --> 00:04:38,020
If you want trading this, that's where we're going. But you then take it slowly, move along that mission.

46
00:04:38,020 --> 00:04:43,530
And as the road gets a bit bumpy, it's all right. We still on on track.

47
00:04:43,530 --> 00:04:51,360
I just want to pick up a little bit about somebody said, Carl, about your leadership style in particular.

48
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,260
But you mentioned earlier about sort of building capacity.

49
00:04:55,260 --> 00:05:01,110
And you alluded to the value of teaching training. Two things I wanted to pick you up on, if I may.

50
00:05:01,110 --> 00:05:07,270
This is one about mentoring and how you see that, because you talked about people that you learn from.

51
00:05:07,270 --> 00:05:12,270
And the second thing is as a leader and evidence based health care, as a director of a group.

52
00:05:12,270 --> 00:05:15,630
And so when do you start thinking about succession planning as well?

53
00:05:15,630 --> 00:05:21,210
And what do you think when you starting with the next generation of leaders to to sort of come through?

54
00:05:21,210 --> 00:05:24,900
Yeah. So that's good. Let's take the mentoring one and then we'll come up to actually.

55
00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:31,000
So I think what it is with mentoring, it's quite interesting is a deep felt.

56
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:39,040
Supervision is quite an interesting concept and it's a really good example of where I think you can develop good leadership,

57
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,570
good men and what you Gipp generally during through a deep fill is beginning.

58
00:05:44,570 --> 00:05:48,240
I put lots more energy and effort up. They'll meet with you every two weeks.

59
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,680
We've got a problem in between. Come and talk to me. We'll talk it through.

60
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:58,160
But what I'm looking for is, is a journey where the person starts to become more empowered.

61
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,210
So beats up, take more of the decision, more of the responsibility.

62
00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:07,300
And so by year two and into year three, they're e-mailing me, go ahead, call when everything's all right.

63
00:06:07,300 --> 00:06:11,500
Don't need to meet with mom. Just let me know where we're up to. I'm on track.

64
00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:16,650
Everything's fine. And any good with even eating.

65
00:06:16,650 --> 00:06:22,110
The person is taking decisions. They know how to use me and appropriately are the resource.

66
00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:27,330
And I'm going, that's what you're trying to do. How do we yujing each other at the resort?

67
00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:32,100
So I think what you do is mentoring. You can have a big impact early on.

68
00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:36,910
Well, you've got to realise that diminishing returns. Isn't it?

69
00:06:36,910 --> 00:06:40,810
And then the best way you mentally can go through is, by the way we behave,

70
00:06:40,810 --> 00:06:46,840
the way we make people feel and our emotional intelligence and knowing sometimes

71
00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:51,810
when actually there might only be one or two times with the senior people,

72
00:06:51,810 --> 00:06:58,420
look where you go, I can help this person is the point where I can give them a bit of my thought processes.

73
00:06:58,420 --> 00:07:06,840
I might go about this this way. But in doing that, I'm recognising that's how I go around it.

74
00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:13,890
And one of the things is I've said is one of the things is watch out for the advice which you get.

75
00:07:13,890 --> 00:07:21,290
I wouldn't do that. If I was you. When people are saying that, they're saying, no, you shouldn't do it.

76
00:07:21,290 --> 00:07:26,690
They're saying, I wouldn't do it because we all have different slight ways of doing something.

77
00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:32,300
So recognising at some point the mentoring plan comes into a point where you go.

78
00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:35,000
This person is going to make their own decisions.

79
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:41,300
All I can do is give them a bit of advice about how I would go about it, not how they would go about it.

80
00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:45,410
And if they don't take it completely, fine. But I'm just saying, here we go.

81
00:07:45,410 --> 00:07:55,250
Here's how you think about that. And I think we will find that because on our journey, we as we go, what's interesting is the politics gets greater.

82
00:07:55,250 --> 00:08:01,430
The people who were up there are obviously all smart people have their own agendas and what they want to achieve.

83
00:08:01,430 --> 00:08:08,840
And often in that, you've got to become more situational awareness, more forceful or never been in this position.

84
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,520
This is quite a delicate issue. Now, how do I strategically go about that?

85
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:18,830
And I'd say that actually when you go up the ladder, actually a barrel.

86
00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:29,360
And this is just a generalisation, but about five percent of what I do requires a higher level thinking in a way that you being strategic.

87
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,800
And that's also, again, another point where you're talking to people. I talk to people in them five percent of my work.

88
00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,910
I go college, just run this by you.

89
00:08:37,910 --> 00:08:45,440
And the people who don't move up the ladder tend to react to make decisions without running it by somebody or thinking it through.

90
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,300
And I think that's where the mentorship comes in. I'm seeking mentorship from people all the time.

91
00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:53,840
They don't even know I'm doing it. Kind of just run this by you.

92
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,880
At that point, somebody is being your mentor. I'm asking them to say, what do you think?

93
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:04,550
What would you do in this situation? And if they agree with me, it reassures me if they don't go a rethink.

94
00:09:04,550 --> 00:09:09,800
So I think that's the mentorship. And I see that as why it's the same journey.

95
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:16,370
And if you're lucky in something like sports, you know, if you know, you do sports, you can have some coaching early on.

96
00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:20,930
You can make big gains with really simple bits of instruction.

97
00:09:20,930 --> 00:09:30,200
But as you get better and better at something. The advice, the training, the coaching input is very, very refined, very little bits.

98
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,780
And often you've got to make sure you don't make things worse for people at the high quality of what they're doing.

99
00:09:35,780 --> 00:09:40,640
So, I mean, that's the mentorship within that you see is a role Wari.

100
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:47,170
In effect, succession planning is making sure people are empowered to take decisions.

101
00:09:47,170 --> 00:09:55,120
And that actually, you could get to a point where you think if I stepped away from this organisation and was away on sabbatical for six months.

102
00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:00,450
Would it survive? And I feel confident in the organisation we've got.

103
00:10:00,450 --> 00:10:03,690
That is the case. Would it be done differently? Certainly would.

104
00:10:03,690 --> 00:10:09,390
Some bits would be done differently. That's OK, because everybody has to bring their own way of doing things.

105
00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:15,420
But also, what I think the best organisations do is you can see people coming through.

106
00:10:15,420 --> 00:10:23,910
And then what I think of it is a bit like a Venn diagram. The way we work that the Venn diagram might have more than three bits.

107
00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:31,350
It might have five. It might have seven circles. And some of them circles overlap with each other that are not involving me.

108
00:10:31,350 --> 00:10:37,260
But there are some bits where we might find something where we're all together in this.

109
00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:42,150
Now, that's where the teaching works really well, because everybody has a common goal where they go.

110
00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:46,170
We're trying to get the student through this MFC. We're trying to get this defo right.

111
00:10:46,170 --> 00:10:53,760
So that's where the teaching works really well in a way that the research doesn't quite do that.

112
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:59,760
And I think allowing the overlapping effect means that sometimes somebody might pull off and go, I'm out of here.

113
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:07,140
And that's completely fine. But if you just let me let it fly like that, what will happen is at some point they just come back and go.

114
00:11:07,140 --> 00:11:11,550
We've got this particular project where I need your particular skills and input.

115
00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:14,820
And at that point, you go, great, I'm available.

116
00:11:14,820 --> 00:11:21,000
But what's happening is it's growing all the time because you've got not one person vertical in control.

117
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:30,420
You've got a very flat organisation where actually what you're doing is trying to allow everybody to say, look, let's be flat in our decision making.

118
00:11:30,420 --> 00:11:34,590
Let's try and get on with taking forward initiatives.

119
00:11:34,590 --> 00:11:39,120
And some people run faster than others. That's okay.

120
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,420
Let's accept it. I've got a couple more questions.

121
00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:48,900
I didn't want to ask us not to discuss the sort of some of the cover global events, because, you know,

122
00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:55,830
obviously you all play a fairly prominent role in that and with your expertise and your experience.

123
00:11:55,830 --> 00:12:01,680
And I'm just interested in your perspectives on how leadership is presented at the moment,

124
00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:08,940
because we're in a very interesting health care situation, to say the least, with different perspectives being put forward in different ways.

125
00:12:08,940 --> 00:12:12,530
What are your thoughts on the current leadership at the moment?

126
00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:19,850
Well, I think the first thing is to say we're in a different era with social media and the 24 hour news cycle.

127
00:12:19,850 --> 00:12:27,710
In that there is an insatiable appetite for people to get information out there, but also for everybody to comment on it.

128
00:12:27,710 --> 00:12:38,490
And that can be very polarising in terms of what happens and can feel very uncomfortable, because if you put your views out there in Fort.

129
00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:44,040
Then you make yourself vulnerable. And I think it's a bit like politics.

130
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,590
If people like what you say, they're reaffirming. And if they don't like, they'll rail against it.

131
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:57,300
But I think what we did in this current pandemic was was quite a divergence from what we'd normally do is one of the key

132
00:12:57,300 --> 00:13:05,380
areas we decided to do was to say we're going to work with the media to try and understand and explain what's happening.

133
00:13:05,380 --> 00:13:10,970
And that largely started with the death statistics because we was one of the few people he

134
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:18,230
published on Office for National Death Statistics and been interested in all cause mortality,

135
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:25,100
excess deaths at some time. And I wrote a piece right back in February in the BMJ about it saying this is an important metric.

136
00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:27,620
This is the sort of information we'll be watching.

137
00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:33,500
And what's happened is huge number of journalists came on board and said, we don't really understand this material.

138
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:44,540
So we started out with a weekly webinar based on the owner's office for National Statistics, death data, just explaining what it is,

139
00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:52,880
what it means and that it was taking all Tuesday morning and then presenting for half an hour and then doing a question and answer.

140
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:58,760
In doing that, also part of our group in the evidence survey said we need to fill some of the evidence gaps.

141
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:04,370
And it's been a huge amount of input from people to put together rapid reviews.

142
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:14,600
And then we publish it on the CBN site that over 20 million views, which has been, you know, impressive for a site that is basically not news out.

143
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,470
It's not a not a journal. It's just a CBN Web site.

144
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:27,290
So the evidence services fill that gap. And what that's done, that is led to more interest in appetite for looking at the data,

145
00:14:27,290 --> 00:14:32,270
analysing the data, spotting the trends, but also where problems have existed.

146
00:14:32,270 --> 00:14:39,710
One of the big issues we found was, for instance, nobody can ever die from konbit because it is once you've got a positive test.

147
00:14:39,710 --> 00:14:44,780
Public Health, England, we're going to count that in your death stats, even if it's nine months later.

148
00:14:44,780 --> 00:14:50,050
Or you can imagine what that data might look like today. If that was still being done, we would have panic.

149
00:14:50,050 --> 00:14:58,670
But some days it could be from the deaths reported, of which only 60 occurred in the last 28 days serving in doing that.

150
00:14:58,670 --> 00:15:11,480
But one of the big things we've done, which has created a lot of tension, is reflect the uncertainty in the evidence base for decision making.

151
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:20,690
And what we have found is there's been too much certainty applied by people who haven't fought through some of these issues over the long course.

152
00:15:20,690 --> 00:15:25,160
These are these are fellow health care leaders you're talking about. Yeah. And reflecting on that.

153
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:34,530
And so my my points are the first thing you need to do when you're looking at the data and the evidence is actually understand what is happening.

154
00:15:34,530 --> 00:15:40,830
And that is incredibly difficult to do with the current production of data and evidence.

155
00:15:40,830 --> 00:15:44,880
Once you got there. Think about if you're going to intervene. How would you know?

156
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,920
It's it makes a difference. Is he going to intervene and continue to intervene?

157
00:15:50,920 --> 00:16:00,430
You've got problems because then suddenly you lose the trust of the people if you produce in numbers or predictions and they're shown to be.

158
00:16:00,430 --> 00:16:07,430
And this is an incredibly difficult thing to do, because even I find myself, it's what happens all the time in the media.

159
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:16,000
They want to know. So, Professor, what's gonna happen next or what's going to be the outcome of a circuit breaker?

160
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,090
And I have to say, I don't know. I have no idea.

161
00:16:19,090 --> 00:16:24,940
I can tell you, I think in the next two to three weeks, cases like this stabilise if you pull a circuit breaker in.

162
00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:27,430
I've no idea if they'll go. They'll come down more.

163
00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:34,900
But if we don't actually evaluate it in a sort of evidence based way, we'll just last in this position where you go.

164
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:44,650
I don't know. And I find that astounding. Nine months in, we still uncertain about many interventions and we've not reduced dozens.

165
00:16:44,650 --> 00:16:54,740
And if you think about that, the problem is now is, is this something within our society that wants to create third?

166
00:16:54,740 --> 00:17:00,140
And in creating certain to manage our own anxieties and our own fears.

167
00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:05,380
And something about that's the way we constructed as people to go about our daily business.

168
00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:11,760
Otherwise we might get paralysed. I'm not going to cross the road because I'm a bit concerned.

169
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:19,390
I might not make it to the other side. But we make these judgements in by facing risk all the time to go about our daily lives.

170
00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:23,200
What's happened in this pandemic is the fear factor.

171
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:29,020
Got so great now that actually people can't see the wood from the trees in the decision

172
00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:33,880
making because they don't understand the risk to themselves and the people around them.

173
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,120
And therefore, you become fearful.

174
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:45,430
And if you're making decisions in state of fear, we have a problem in terms of having intelligent, thoughtful approaches.

175
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:50,380
And I think these are the positions in the leadership where you go.

176
00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:53,170
This is really interesting.

177
00:17:53,170 --> 00:18:01,360
My position is there have been quite a few times where I've been personally attacked or there've been lots of vitriol or lots of issues.

178
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:08,050
You can see that around in. And yet my emotional intelligence within me, I go, whoa, this feels actually.

179
00:18:08,050 --> 00:18:16,360
And people want to control the debate. They don't want to speaker. And in doing that, again, you have to withdraw, just look after yourself.

180
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:26,440
Not react emotionally. We'll try and be analytical, and one of the things, if you watch what I say and write a law, I'm actually writing to people.

181
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:33,030
Slow down. And you're thinking. Slow down your reactions to the data.

182
00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:39,300
Because if you don't support an intervention in place, you've got to give it time to work to know whether it's made a difference.

183
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:46,470
But at the moment is a daily diet of Kofod figures coming out on a daily diet of reaction because people go.

184
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:50,850
It's going up, therefore. Oh, it's going up. It's going to continue to go.

185
00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:57,270
And this type of thinking, this very short term thinking has become a huge problem for us right now.

186
00:18:57,270 --> 00:19:00,780
And it comes back to the tortoise and the hare discussion, doesn't it?

187
00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:06,840
In fact, everybody needs to improve the data, improve their ability, analyse the data.

188
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,570
And then in doing that, make thoughtful decisions about what happens next.

189
00:19:11,570 --> 00:19:18,560
That's the message we're putting out there. If you put that message out there, what I'm saying is in areas of uncertainty,

190
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:25,800
you take a lot of import and you probably go for the middle road until it becomes clear where to go.

191
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,300
But if you go to the extremes, you've got a problem, haven't you?

192
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:35,300
And there will be times when you're operating in uncertainty and you should just try and take the middle path.

193
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:42,920
So what strategies do you adopt? Because obviously, you know, if you are very funny in the media at the moment and you talk about your writing,

194
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,420
what strategies do you take or for yourself when,

195
00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:52,460
you know the people are going to always agree with necessarily what you say, something that will support.

196
00:19:52,460 --> 00:19:58,480
And as you alluded to, some people also may lose you some personal attacks on you.

197
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,890
What sort of what sort of internal systems do you then creating yourself to be able to manage that?

198
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:10,500
Well, I don't think I don't think somebody said you don't fight fire with fire and therefore actually fight fire with water.

199
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:14,960
Don't you know? I never understood that. But then if in doing that,

200
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:25,430
the first thing is I will never engage with anybody when it comes to a battle about my ideas are better than yours or I'm a better person than you.

201
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:32,180
And I do find that the sort of playground approach of, you know, trying to establish I'm more eminent,

202
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:36,650
new is not the approach and that's ingrained in us in the evidence base.

203
00:20:36,650 --> 00:20:43,990
Manage them, because if it's coming down to my opinion, then actually we're at the lowest level of decision making.

204
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:48,650
And therefore, why should anybody listen to me about my opinion, it's just as likely to be wrong.

205
00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:59,150
Does anybody else live in the face of no evidence? And so that's first is to understand that we can't argue all points of view as a scientist,

206
00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:05,260
an academic, and I think what happens is a lot of people get that role reverse.

207
00:21:05,260 --> 00:21:10,580
So they want to become the politician and the policy, the.

208
00:21:10,580 --> 00:21:18,680
What I do is when I go to policy, I go, my job is to inform you so you can set the policy.

209
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:25,250
My job is to reduce the uncertainty or expressions of it so that you know about what you're gonna do next.

210
00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:31,960
He said, OK, because there's no evidence base. We're going to have a rule of whatever, because we know there's no evidence.

211
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:41,140
But we've got to be shown to be doing something. Makes, you know, being the decision maker with the developer of the evidence and communicating,

212
00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:48,320
that is a problem because soon as you do that, you'll start to be very Rhône opinions on the research.

213
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:57,110
You'll start to distort the research and the evidence to suit your agenda. Remembering that we start from a position of this doesn't work.

214
00:21:57,110 --> 00:22:01,050
The evidence is there to disprove the null hypothesis.

215
00:22:01,050 --> 00:22:07,490
And I have to build up an evidence base that said it's clear now it disproves the null hypothesis.

216
00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:11,120
They were. And that's what we do in a court of law in effect.

217
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:16,210
Similarly, it's evidence that you're innocent until proven guilty.

218
00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:21,940
That's a known hypothesis. And therefore, you build up an evidence base to say this person is guilty.

219
00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:25,400
Build up an evidence base to say it's clear what we should do.

220
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:32,050
And I've always felt that's an important component, because when the evidence is clear, you don't need guidance.

221
00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:39,220
You don't need my opinions. I've explained it to you. And also what happens and it's clear what should be done.

222
00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:43,210
I tend to therefore avoid the discussion.

223
00:22:43,210 --> 00:22:50,450
So, for instance, today I've had three or four media requests about what do you think about the effects of circuit breakers?

224
00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:56,390
And that's a classic example of how would I know about the effects of something that's never been tried.

225
00:22:56,390 --> 00:23:01,520
Never been evaluated. And something we're about to do and we will likely to evaluate.

226
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,540
So what has to happen in this situation is just to say, let the policy ride.

227
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:13,940
And in three weeks, the question I put out to my staff is, how do we best analyse this intervention?

228
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:22,250
What measures would we use to say this is working? Given that some of them won't be appropriate, like destines too late, that's too far down the road.

229
00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:27,380
Some of the measures like cases that might not be appropriate should we have admissions from the community.

230
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:33,170
So avoid some areas where you being forced to give your opinion.

231
00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:38,420
Vs. go to the areas where you've been asked to explain, well, why is this not working?

232
00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:43,670
How should we evaluate this? What should a new alternative plan look like?

233
00:23:43,670 --> 00:23:50,960
We're selecting a new one. You might want to say we want to build an evaluation to understand what's going on.

234
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,600
Now, what it's done is in our strategy, one of the cheap bits is writing.

235
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:07,950
It's sometimes better than the visual communication because in a clearly written piece, you can establish, you know, in a nice, slow, methodical way.

236
00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:14,200
On occasion, we've got a bit over the top because the strategy is demanded at that point in time.

237
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,040
And then often what we're doing is and interestingly with the media.

238
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,440
One of the things I want to do is sometimes and rewrite some of your bits of your information.

239
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,630
And this happens with about a week ago. And in doing that, you look at the article and you go, that's not my article.

240
00:24:29,630 --> 00:24:35,840
And that's not something I would say. And then again, you've got this interesting proposition.

241
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:43,470
If you're still wants to be in the media with your article and they're about to publish it, but you've got your other side going.

242
00:24:43,470 --> 00:24:47,130
Well, actually, some people might not like that.

243
00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:53,560
And it's not what I would have said. This is the point where you have to be clear, you walk away.

244
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:59,380
And so we just wrote in and said, this is not our article and we wouldn't want it published in this format.

245
00:24:59,380 --> 00:25:08,520
End of the spoke with Tom. We said take it back or put it somewhere else in its original form.

246
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,290
And that's an important aspect if it's not what you would want.

247
00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:22,960
You have to stand that. And particularly early on, you might be so I'm about to be published in the national newspaper.

248
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,110
This is amazing. I'll give in. That's the integrity aspect to do so.

249
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:35,380
Integrity is the long game. When you're not looking for the earthquake, when you're saying, actually,

250
00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:43,370
this is what we want to say and I'm sticking with what we want to say, and that's the biggest import aspect of what you do.

251
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:49,250
The other thing I think, which is interested in the media is, again, the relationship.

252
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:57,070
It doesn't happen overnight that suddenly you're in a position that actually you're going to suddenly be writing a national newspaper.

253
00:25:57,070 --> 00:26:01,250
Some of these people I've known for over a decade who would still fall into it.

254
00:26:01,250 --> 00:26:07,010
And one of the things is they make come to us for a bit of advice. And I'm not going to get anything out of it.

255
00:26:07,010 --> 00:26:11,150
That moment in time, apart from going, explains a national newspaper,

256
00:26:11,150 --> 00:26:17,510
something about this analysis that you might look at it this way and that we do that we people from the BBC,

257
00:26:17,510 --> 00:26:23,390
some of the newspapers all the time talking to knowing I'm not going to get anything out of it.

258
00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:28,190
However, when I see the article, I go, actually, the public is going to get something out of it.

259
00:26:28,190 --> 00:26:31,310
So I'm thinking about the end product. Yeah.

260
00:26:31,310 --> 00:26:36,740
And I look at the end product and I've just seen a national piece in the BBC, which I spoke to somebody about two days ago.

261
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:42,020
I got the end product. It won't even know it's spoken to the person.

262
00:26:42,020 --> 00:26:48,950
Both in the revolving door of the long game. I know at some point there will be a benefit comes back to me.

263
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:54,080
But you've got to understand, the people you're going to work with are going to give you.

264
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,860
It's a win win strategy in the long run. Well, you know, going to win on every event.

265
00:26:59,860 --> 00:27:04,880
Not every cent is going to go your way. Sometimes the emplace an article and they reject it and go.

266
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,850
All right, we're going to get upset with it. This is part and parcel of the game.

267
00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:13,650
Those are the times when that healthy selfishness, he talks about community count.

268
00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:18,280
You know, you can put things to one side pocket for a that take your mind off things.

269
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:26,040
Go for a bike ride or whatever you took mentioning about, you know, take your mind off these things and in a way, preserve yourself as well.

270
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:33,910
Yeah. And I've always thought as well within that that healthy again, coming back to the is coming back to some of the Jeep rethinking as well as,

271
00:27:33,910 --> 00:27:39,590
you know, in some ways when you have to rush and you have to supply and people want.

272
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:43,780
You want your opinion. I often go to people when you need it that far.

273
00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:50,530
It's actually not going to be about much value. If you need a response from me that way and I do this, we might detail.

274
00:27:50,530 --> 00:27:58,040
I say I'm still thinking about the issue. Because some of the things that people want answers on, I don't have the answers.

275
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:07,040
And we're trying to understand them through the issue. And and and in doing that, sometimes we're looking and going, we can't supply this answer.

276
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,630
So it's two weeks down the line. That's when I'll come back with the media.

277
00:28:11,630 --> 00:28:18,590
That's when we'll start talking about it. And then between there's a lot of people who've made mistakes and the same things that we regret,

278
00:28:18,590 --> 00:28:24,470
because in about two weeks, we'll have a much better understanding about the data and we'll be able to say much clearer.

279
00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:28,300
This is what just happened as opposed to what I think is going to happen.

280
00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:38,080
But I'd say I probably communicate with about 10 such, well, media people now in a regular way.

281
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:45,100
The other thing that's important. Is. When he gets to do some.

282
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:49,320
Oh, was thinking about 100 percent commitment or no.

283
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:58,890
So if I get asked to write an article for this up and this weekend at 3:00 o'clock on a Friday, can you write an article for The Telegraph?

284
00:28:58,890 --> 00:29:04,720
The Sunday Telegraph? And the first question to go is, what's the deadline?

285
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:11,160
Twelve o'clock tomorrow. So and then the second question is how many words?

286
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:17,740
Hundred words. OK. So you basically go for a plug going abroad.

287
00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:22,340
You're probably winding down for the week. You probably got one or two more things to do.

288
00:29:22,340 --> 00:29:30,440
And you're thinking, right. But between now and twelve o'clock Saturday, if you're going to say yes, you have to do.

289
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:40,350
Never say yes. And let's see if you can deliver. And that's a huge problem because you don't want to get a reputation of saying you do something.

290
00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:44,500
12 o'clock tomorrow. The papers go and we've got to avoid. Very good words.

291
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:49,600
They won't come back to you. So at that point, you better saying no.

292
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,900
But the second issue is that if you're in a century going back 10 years ago,

293
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:59,860
The Telegraph or a newspaper come to you and said by tomorrow and it's Friday evening and you go,

294
00:29:59,860 --> 00:30:05,810
you're making dinner tonight, you're going to do this article, they probably said that was impossible.

295
00:30:05,810 --> 00:30:13,040
So what you're doing is honing your skills all the time to the point when you get asked to do something of falling in value.

296
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,890
You read it and you don't have to go. I haven't gotten scales.

297
00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:24,060
There's no way I could do this. The third issue is, is the agent of perfection.

298
00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:30,650
It's in a lot of people. Perfectionism kills creativity.

299
00:30:30,650 --> 00:30:37,550
And I think that's something we all have to be aware of, because there comes a point and you've got to let it go.

300
00:30:37,550 --> 00:30:45,110
And when you put it out there, you also have to accept people are going to take it and use it in their own narrative.

301
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:49,820
And they'll see it in different ways sometimes to what you see.

302
00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:58,310
And I think that's interesting, particularly in some aspects like the media and the TV and the radio.

303
00:30:58,310 --> 00:31:06,660
I tend not to watch myself. But what I do do is seek feedback from the group of people who know me.

304
00:31:06,660 --> 00:31:11,270
And that could be anybody, Warren, ranging to be a family member, to be somebody else.

305
00:31:11,270 --> 00:31:12,890
What did you think?

306
00:31:12,890 --> 00:31:21,310
I'm looking for them to say, you know, actually, and sometimes I'll get Second-Hand feedback through somebody, you know, somebody watched it.

307
00:31:21,310 --> 00:31:31,160
All right. What about this? And that's helpful for me. But I can't judge myself because it's too painstaking to watch yourself in your own media.

308
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,510
So call that day when you have the invitation and the Telegraph, were you still able to make dinner?

309
00:31:35,510 --> 00:31:41,270
Yeah, I made dinner. We wrote the article. It was a really thoughtful article.

310
00:31:41,270 --> 00:31:47,840
But what I did is immediately what I do is you have to have a strategy. And and this is interesting.

311
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:56,480
When you start out, you would probably start writing a right to write and then you get stopped and paused about hundred words and you go,

312
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,590
no idea what went wrong, where it's now what we do. He set out the structure.

313
00:32:01,590 --> 00:32:06,990
OK, what are the eight points I want to make? What are the points and within this article?

314
00:32:06,990 --> 00:32:12,960
Bang, bang, bang. I'm going to get on the phone immediately to my colleagues. I'm just going to discuss the prunings is going to go well.

315
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:19,350
Let's make that point. That point. I'm then going to scratch it out and put the words in very quickly.

316
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:25,210
Go make dinner. Come back in the evening at about nine, 30 at 9:00 and start to polish.

317
00:32:25,210 --> 00:32:29,880
You come again the next morning, then have a discussion with Tom.

318
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,740
And then what we do at eleven thirty, we sit on a Google doc together.

319
00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:40,010
He's in Italy. I'm here. And we go through it line by line.

320
00:32:40,010 --> 00:32:41,540
And finalise it.

321
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:48,740
And then when we've done that, we're gonna have a company and we come back again and we have another ten minutes just to finalise it again.

322
00:32:48,740 --> 00:32:54,050
So what you've done is you've you've created so many points where you've come back to it.

323
00:32:54,050 --> 00:33:00,860
You get to a point where you go clean. But what it's allowed me to do is to do some, have a break, do some of where you deflect yourself,

324
00:33:00,860 --> 00:33:05,750
take your mind away, even go for a bike ride, come back, do another half an hour.

325
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:09,660
And that strategy works really well. Whereas what you tend to do is viewing.

326
00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:13,370
I want to sit down and write from beginning to end. And then it will be done.

327
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:18,980
So this approach where you visited many times and in between give yourself rights is important.

328
00:33:18,980 --> 00:33:22,190
It's a bit like the tortoise analogy. Again, an you put down.

329
00:33:22,190 --> 00:33:29,750
Interestingly as well, the tortoise is important because this is important within careers as well and where you are in your lifecycle.

330
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:37,320
So what I'm describing is something easier to do now than what it was 10 years ago when I had young kids.

331
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:47,560
And nobody will forget. We'll forgive you if, for instance, in your family, when you've got young children, you spend all your time working.

332
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:54,420
And I think this is the Cauvery book, which I really like, is there some aspect in that book,

333
00:33:54,420 --> 00:34:00,630
which is one of the books, you know, you think about some of the text you've wrote that been helpful in your thinking?

334
00:34:00,630 --> 00:34:06,510
The seven habits of highly effective people is a really good strategy to look at.

335
00:34:06,510 --> 00:34:12,390
I read about, you know, the read over, but there are some things in that book that are really helpful.

336
00:34:12,390 --> 00:34:18,630
And what he says is really easy to be effective in one area of your life that you can be really good at your job.

337
00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:25,010
You work all the time and you come home and you families fall into bits or you help fall into that.

338
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:30,580
So it's still got to be mindful in the long game strategy that you still got, go make dinner,

339
00:34:30,580 --> 00:34:35,010
you can't go in and say, sorry, I'm not making dinner tonight cause I've got a really important piece of pie.

340
00:34:35,010 --> 00:34:39,260
No, you've got to be able to shift and go when I go into that position.

341
00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:41,930
I'm going to let that go beyond. So I'll be making dinner,

342
00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:47,560
cooking away miniature and then but the family have a go at me because suddenly my mind about I'm relaxed and thinking, oh, I know.

343
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,370
I have to write that better. Nobody knows. And I'm really happy and I'm going to just.

344
00:34:52,370 --> 00:34:58,280
And that's what I'm doing. So that's a really important attribute of the different bits of your life.

345
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:05,210
And in certain stages, you have to slow things down because you say if I speed that up here,

346
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:09,400
what's going to happen is my family life is to become more ineffective.

347
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,540
And that's where the the total choice of long term plans coming into place, you go,

348
00:35:13,540 --> 00:35:17,470
it's OK because I can see three to five years, that's where I'm going to be.

349
00:35:17,470 --> 00:35:20,710
And the kids will be at secondary school. That may need me a bit less.

350
00:35:20,710 --> 00:35:27,460
But right now, they need me to take me to school, and that's having that ability to think long term.

351
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:35,850
The other thing within that, within the curve is, is there's a there's that structure, which is a two by two both.

352
00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:41,160
Which there are important things in life. And there are not important things.

353
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:50,700
And then there are urgent and not urgent. And if you put them in a box, you can see you've got important, urgent, important, not urgent.

354
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:55,500
And then you've got over here. You've got you've gotten it.

355
00:35:55,500 --> 00:36:00,450
Sorry. You've got it. I've got that slightly wrong that I have.

356
00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:05,070
I'm talking it through. You've got the important stuff here.

357
00:36:05,070 --> 00:36:10,170
And you've got important urgent things and important not urgent things down here, but not important.

358
00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:14,140
Urgent and not important. Not urgent.

359
00:36:14,140 --> 00:36:21,670
So what you should do in the box is we often spend our lives in the important stuff and the urgent stuff, don't we?

360
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:25,090
You know, actually today I've got an important teaching session. It's urgent.

361
00:36:25,090 --> 00:36:31,900
I'm doing it. But often we spend a lot of our time in the urgent, not important things.

362
00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:38,560
So you sat down having dinner and the phone goes. So you go and answer the phone.

363
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,830
You know, and it wasn't it wasn't it's not important. But it was urgent.

364
00:36:42,830 --> 00:36:46,520
So you did it. And I think sometimes that's where we go wrong.

365
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,900
One of the key things I thought about a lot in life is it's been effective.

366
00:36:50,900 --> 00:36:56,680
You have to think about the important issues that are not urgent.

367
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:03,790
And that's where we spend most of our lives as children. We can go and do stuff that's really important to us.

368
00:37:03,790 --> 00:37:07,060
And they're not urgent. And anybody with a who's a parent will know this.

369
00:37:07,060 --> 00:37:11,050
You're trying to get your kid out ready for school. No, no, no. I'm playing. I want to be doing this.

370
00:37:11,050 --> 00:37:14,970
What's the problem, Dad? I didn't want to come to school. I want to be doing this.

371
00:37:14,970 --> 00:37:20,410
And that's we go into adult. We find ourselves doing much more stuff that's just urgent all the time.

372
00:37:20,410 --> 00:37:23,320
And lots of it is not important.

373
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:31,660
And therefore, what you have to do in your balance is try and say within my day what the important stuff in my box that's not urgent.

374
00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:39,190
And I am unable to achieve this all the time. But I'll often have in my mind things like, oh, I'm sure it's really important.

375
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:43,870
I speak to Kemal actually today because actually I need to I need to email him because he

376
00:37:43,870 --> 00:37:47,740
mentioned something really important on Monday that I need to speak to him when I'm alone.

377
00:37:47,740 --> 00:37:51,490
I forgot to email. I tell you what, I'm going to do it by phone because it's more efficient for me.

378
00:37:51,490 --> 00:37:55,330
And I can have a personal conversation. I'm going to do it that way. It's important, not urgent.

379
00:37:55,330 --> 00:38:01,270
And what's interesting is there the things that should be, at least by the end of the week, you've gone up.

380
00:38:01,270 --> 00:38:05,520
Tick that box. Now, you can take that to whole process in family life, can't you?

381
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,700
It's important on a Friday that we watch the movie when the kids were young.

382
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:15,160
Actually, that's what happened. That was the most important thing. That was not urgent on a Friday evening.

383
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,340
Didn't matter what work did to the man. If the BBC. Come on. That's fine.

384
00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:28,960
Gone. So I think that thinking is really helpful to your whole balance and perspective and the things that really bugged me.

385
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:34,210
All the stuff where I go, it's important. It's not urgent. And that might be, for instance.

386
00:38:34,210 --> 00:38:40,080
It's really important. I do my treatment exercise today. It's now four o'clock in the evening.

387
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,160
I've still got three hours of work to do today. I'm feeling a bit stressed.

388
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:50,310
But actually, you know what? For the next hour, we're going to take you out to make up and come back refreshed.

389
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:58,140
We've covered so much call on such a nice thing to finish up on a topic where we're what family and the importance of balance in your life.

390
00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:04,380
And as you get busier and more experienced and and more responsibility, you carry not to lose sight of that balance.

391
00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:08,300
I just want to finish that, if I may, because it's been incredibly insightful.

392
00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:17,220
You know, people listening to your story and the experiences that you've shared much earlier on in their leadership journey in health care.

393
00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:22,420
What top tips then, would you summarise for them to take away from what we've discussed today?

394
00:39:22,420 --> 00:39:32,360
Yeah, and I think we've been a number of points. I think the Northwest News is always thinking about your own skills and building your own skill base.

395
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,380
And stop doing that.

396
00:39:34,380 --> 00:39:42,690
The people around you and particularly the students will see for you really rapidly and move on to somebody who's hungry for knowledge and learning.

397
00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:50,580
And I think that's incredibly important in what goes hand-in-hand with that is learning to communicate.

398
00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:55,590
And you can do that in many different ways. You can do it through writing, teaching.

399
00:39:55,590 --> 00:40:02,250
You can do small groups. But you're always thinking about within this interaction, what are we trying to achieve?

400
00:40:02,250 --> 00:40:07,980
That's the best. And what goes with that is your own emotional intelligence.

401
00:40:07,980 --> 00:40:12,720
How did it make me feel at the end of the day? How did it make this person feel?

402
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:22,440
And then going back to probably my final is at the end of the day is if you have a win win strategy in your mind all the time.

403
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,300
Whatever comes on your on your shoulder telling you it's time for a win lose.

404
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:34,410
You go, oh, government. What does this other person get out of this engagement? And if they don't, gonna get anything.

405
00:40:34,410 --> 00:40:36,900
You need to go back to the drawing board and go right?

406
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:42,600
You need to rethink because if they're not going to get a win, they're not going to work with you over the long term.

407
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,560
And that's going to be a marker of success in my mind.

408
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:56,510
Look, to work with the people who have built relationships over the long term and have outputs to match the quality of what they do.

409
00:40:56,510 --> 00:41:01,760
Fantastic. Karl, thank you so much for your time today, really enjoyed the insights.

410
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,370
Hearing the stories, sharing your experiences as well,

411
00:41:04,370 --> 00:41:09,290
I'm sure there's plenty of people who'll be watching this with lots to to gain from what you've told us.

412
00:41:09,290 --> 00:41:15,610
Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed part two of our podcast.

413
00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:17,500
The Fundamentals of Leadership.

414
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:25,270
You can find the full video recording of this interview on our YouTube channel and also on our Web site, along with many other leadership resources.

415
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:34,763
Simply visit creb m dot o x dot ac dot UK or search CPM leadership resources.