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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
For those who are doing things. This module is not part of session of the day.

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So those who are from the department, thanks for coming along. Um.

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I'm really pleased that Sarah's come along to, um, talk to us today about storytelling.

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So a little bit of history, um, in terms of ourselves.

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So, Sarah, what's that? The old fire station.

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And they really helped us with a project that we've been doing on, uh, cultural social prescribing for older people from Thailand, which is great.

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And from that we've developed something that we call the circle tool, which is there to support organisations.

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So theatres, docs, groups, music groups to be inclusive, uh, accessible to all the people from uh, ethnic minority or global majority groups.

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Um, as part of that project we use storytelling. So we got training from Sarah and Will, who uh, Sarah works with.

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Um, it's been a really lovely piece of work. Um, Deborah, who I worked with, did a lot of the actual story collections, but, um,

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I'm going to hand over to Sarah now, who's going to tell us a bit more about storytelling.

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Right. Thank you. Stephanie. Um, and hi, everybody, and thank you for having me.

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Um, basically said my name Sarah.

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Um, I work at the all five station art centre, and which comes up if you've ever, if you've heard of us before, a few people.

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So, um, for those that do know screen Art centre, we're just down the road.

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Um, um, like a lot of our senses, we have a theatre and a gallery and a cafe and a dance studio.

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Um, but one of the things that makes us a little bit different from other art centres is that,

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um, since we began 15 years ago, we've shared our building with the homeless charity crisis.

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So really, the heart of what we do is thinking about how do we make sure that people who walk through our doors that access, help with their housing,

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can get involved in the arts, can help us shape our work, our building, um,

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and can in some cases be the artists that, you know, we're platforming through our work.

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And so that's really cool. It's what we do.

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But actually, we found in the past seven years or so or and ever more, the thing that people know us for is, is storytelling.

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Um, and that's why I wanted to, um, over the next Sarah, just tell you a bit more about and, um,

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give you a chance to ask some questions and to come and go to see just see this getting started.

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Um, yeah. So over the course of the next hour, I'll give you a bit of an overview of the storytelling methods.

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Uh, we'll listen to this story. And, and I'll also give a couple of examples of how it's been used within, uh, a health care context.

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And, uh, yeah. And we'll be speaking at the end of the spectrum of options and hearing from you.

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And anyways, it might resonate with what you've been doing as well.

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Um, platform. Um, but I'll start at the beginning.

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So, um, so as I mentioned,

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we're an art centre and at the heart of our work is thinking about how do we make

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sure that the what we're doing is centred around the people that we're working with?

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Um, but one thing we really felt like it didn't align with us and, and our values was the way that we were evaluating impacts.

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We found that more often than not, we spent a lot of time collecting data that we knew, uh, it was a bit meaningless,

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that it didn't actually tell us about the depth and the complexity of the work and the context.

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And, you know, in some cases, it kind of almost led us to kind of, um,

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over clean for the work we were doing because, you know, a funder might say, oh, you know, you need to collect 100.

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You need to work with 100 people who have lived experience of homelessness, and we'd know that we'd worked with 105.

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But in reality, we know that 60 of those people have touched the project and 45 have had a really meaningful experience,

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but there's no way to communicate that. So we felt kind of, I guess,

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frustrated and a little bit kind of sheepish about the fact that the way we were evaluating wasn't really reflecting who we were,

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and we were looking for something new. And, um, we arrived at storytelling and we it was a method that was kind of initially kind

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of introduced and developed with an external evaluators list back in um theory.

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Um, and it sort of impact on us. It really shifted evaluation from being this, uh, down at the end.

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Something has become really central to the work and how we listen and how we work with people.

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And as Stephanie said, we've we've kind of gone on to train others and support other partners,

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um, across a whole range of sectors, over 200 partners and using this method.

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Um, so storytelling. It's a method inspired by the most significant change technique, which some of you may have heard of.

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So it's a method used quite often in kind of international development and community development circles.

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And UN in essence, involves collecting stories from participants, are involved in a project or refocus in different ways,

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and then bringing people together to analyse those stories in a kind of participatory,

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collaborative way and think about what what we can learn from it.

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Um, there are six key steps that we, um, go through in the way that we use this method.

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And I would say that, like there are many other methods that kind of have elements of this or, you know, their own versions of storytelling.

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This is just the way we've come to use it. So, um, um, excuse me, first of all, we we recruit and we train story collectors.

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So these are people that whose job it will be to sit down and have a conversation with someone one on one about their experience,

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what it's meant for them.

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So it's people who are able to guide that reflective conversation with people at ease and, crucially, are relatable to the storyteller.

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So often that's not the person who's leading the project. It's somebody that they feel they can speak openly with about their experience.

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So we train people in that approach. Um, secondly, we identify storytellers.

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So for any project through focus, often we're looking at anything from 6 to 12 storytellers.

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But sometimes it's been more and these are people that reflect a breadth of different perspectives on the project.

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So sometimes a little fire station that's been met collecting from people who participated,

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but also artists, volunteers, staff really trying to get that breadth of different perspectives.

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But that breadth can look different ways for different projects depending on what you're trying to looking people.

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Um, and then thirdly, um, once we have our storytellers and our story collectors,

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um, one crucial thing to say is that we also brief storytellers at that stage.

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It's really important people walk into this knowing what to expect, knowing they start the story where they want to start it,

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that they'll have a chance to see that story before it's shared, and that they feel that, you know, we're there because we want to listen to them.

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And, and, and it's on their terms. Um, so once you have all done all of that, we have a storyteller and a story collector.

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They sit down and they have a conversation. And that conversation is guided by four key questions.

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What's been your involvement? What changed for you?

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Why does that change important and how did it happen.

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And these are very much the skeleton to the conversation.

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Um, but they're not necessarily sometimes the how we ask the questions, but they're they're not necessarily what we, we don't want.

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It feels too much like an interview format. It's the grain we want to make sure we cover over the course, um, of a conversation.

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Um, and really, what it is, is space for people to really just reflect with you about their experience and what it's meant for them.

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So that's that's the story telling. Um, that conversation is, um, recorded on an audio device.

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It's then transcribed and it's then we take that transcript and we assign it to a story that's kind of 1 to 2

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pages long that really tries to key the key things people said about their experience and what it meant for them,

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but in their own voice and words. So we want to be able to really hear someone's voice and connect with them and for it to verbatim.

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So different to a case study and the depth of the conversation we had often

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means that there's something really rich to be shared in the story of that form,

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and we then share that back with the storytellers.

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Um, once they're happy with it, they can make any changes. Um, we, um, convene what we call a discussion session.

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So this is where we bring together a breadth of people, um,

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with different relationships and positionality on the work to discuss the stories and think about what we can learn from them.

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Um, and this is a really crucial part of that process,

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because storytelling is about a plurality of voices at every stage, and it's not about one person.

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So about one researcher, one evaluator saying, this is what we're seeing or extracting the learning from the data,

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but it's about a collection of people sense making together and seeing what what emerges and what people learn.

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And so at this stage in the process, usually, um, this is where we would think about,

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um, what what threads, what themes are coming up, what surprises us in the stories.

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But also we did have, um, outcomes we set or hypothesis for the project.

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They haven't shaped the questions we've asked, but they might shape the discussion we have because we might say,

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okay, let's think about this outcome in relation to the stories.

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You know, what are we hearing? You know, what ways are coming up. What what does this tell us?

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In what ways is it not coming up. And you use it in that way.

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So this is the discussions are really key part of the process. Um, and then once you.

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About a discussion. That kind of is the basis for reports.

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So we'll kind of collate everything that was said in the conversation and write up a report.

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And, and in some instances also use these stories in other ways.

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We find they can be really, but they're creative in and of themselves.

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But they can also be a great premise. We've used them for, uh, we've created a book with, uh, we've commissioned artists.

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We collaborated on a quilt, The Storyteller.

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So, yeah, that can be used in all sorts of creative ways as well.

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Um. For us, the kind of benefits we find of storytelling is that first and foremost,

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it really centres, um, the experiences of those that are closest to the work.

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So rather than it feeling like an extractive process, it's about somebody sitting down and starting a story where they want to start it.

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And, um, often we find people find that quite a like a helpful,

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reflective process and moment to have and one where hopefully they can really feel listened to.

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Um, secondly, we really have found that it's a meaningful process in and of itself.

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So, you know, the storytelling, the discussions, uh, sessions, they help us to collaborate,

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they help us to listen better, to help us to build relationships.

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And so they shift evaluation from the thing at the end to being the work itself.

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It is, you know, it's caught in the old fire station how we do all of those things.

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And that's one of the things that's really made it kind of valuable for us.

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Um, and thirdly, we find that the data that we get from it, um, it's really it holds onto complexity.

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It's rooted in context. It feels human.

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And, um, and then the learning we get from it can be really versatile.

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So, um, yeah, these are some of the benefits we find we use in the method.

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Um, but there are definitely some limitations and some considerations that have been addressed as well through through our practice of using it.

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And I know those experiences. And the first big consideration is capacity.

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So, um, it takes time and it takes energy and just the process of bringing together the story collections,

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bringing together people to discuss the stories. The whole process can be quite time consuming and intensive.

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So, um, the writing of the story say so. Um, it doesn't mean it's always that accessible to people, particularly who are often published,

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who have limited capacity, which is many people in the world of waiting.

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Um, and secondly, like it, it's brilliant.

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Again, the depth of impact for an individual, but because of the time that goes into each story, um, it's hard to scale.

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You know, it's about learning from a select number of stories and, um, thinking about,

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um, how do you do justice to those rather than it being able to hear from everybody?

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Um, which, yeah, is another thing to think about and what sits around that.

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So you might not want to touch from others. Um, and then thirdly, you know, we find in asking people what's changed for them.

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Um, very often, even though we try and think about power dynamics and who's listening to your story,

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here's a story that's quite hard for people to speak openly in that context about what hasn't gone where, what hasn't changed.

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Um, so it's worth noting that the stories we collect, more often than not, they focus on the positives.

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Um, we never shy away from the negatives, and very often the discussions we will make actively make space for it.

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But there is a likelihood the data you collect through storytelling might have a bit of a bias or might not.

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You know, it might glean over some of those things.

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So again, it's worth thinking about where it sits alongside other methods that might help fill in some of those limitations or gaps.

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Um, so I realise I'm talking a lot and that's a lot of information, but that's kind of the overview of the method and how it works.

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Um, and I just wanted to, um, I think the best way to get a sense of a storytelling is to listen to a story.

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So I wanted to just, um, play your story for, um, if I could just get you to attempt that name.

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And then on this side. You don't know this quite enough. Everyone. So you might have to share.

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But we will also be here in the audience. So you will you'll be able to capture that.

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And so this is a story that we collected, um, a few years ago now on a project called Icom.

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So we brought together and it was a project that, uh, that we,

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we ran this recently brought together, uh, professional photographer unagi and his clients,

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and they, uh, thought about iconic photographs that they wanted to recreate, and they recreate them with, with Rory.

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And and it was one of those projects. It was a real buzz.

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And, um, you could feel the excitement and the energy and the shifts and people taking part in the project.

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So we used storytelling to help us understand what that actually means.

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The people, um, um, brought together, we collected 11 stories from.

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Oh crisis clouds, volunteer staff, um artists.

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And, um, how did discussion sessions focus? Um, learn from them.

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And I wanted to play this story that I'm going to you now the recording this by it's not by the individual themselves.

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So sometimes we do record stories and we invite the storytellers.

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They would like to, to record their stories. Um, but not everybody wants to.

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And one of the things with storytelling, we find is that option of anonymity is quite important.

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So people can speak openly. And so this is not this is by an actor who happens to know the storyteller.

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But, um, yeah, somebody who's thought about too. So I'll, uh, um, let you listen to.

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Um, yeah. There. I'd love to hear any reflections people have or, um.

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Yeah. What what kind of what strikes you? I listen to it.

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I've been coming to crisis for about a year.

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In the beginning it would just be once a week or something, because I found it really hard to be in a classroom situation.

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I would feel trapped. Here. It didn't feel difficult.

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I felt welcomed, but not pressured. When you go into a classroom, everyone says hello and I've never had that anywhere else.

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Every day is a new day and everyone's greeted the same. It seems like it's a place that's for everyone.

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It was a group project rather than them telling us what to do, which is how I thought it would be.

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Everyone would be there to help out when they could. It wasn't patronising, it was everyone having their input.

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We couldn't have done it all by ourselves. It's there because we did it together.

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I used to hate things in groups and classrooms. It was my worst nightmare.

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But I realised after doing this I actually like going to great things.

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I had no idea. I think the reason I would turn off is because I thought they were relying on me,

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but then by the end of it I realised I'm kind of doing it for myself as well.

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I used to find it hard to talk if it was in groups that are just go silent.

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But when we had a few sessions where we were just doing discussions safe,

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I felt I didn't want to say anything for the whole first half, and then I'd say something.

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It was like I wasn't made to feel weird about it. I've had that before.

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Everyone's looking at me whispering or whatever. Yeah, they just understand that people sometimes need to take their time.

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If one of us had an idea about something, everyone would listen to it and it was discussed.

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That's nice. And people listen to what I say and want to know my opinions.

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I've just never had that before. I feel like I'm actually seen.

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Here. I actually feel like a real person. I'm not just there to do things for others or whatever.

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This is something that's actually for me. I didn't have much confidence before this.

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I'd always been in the background. I never used to want to be in photos.

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As a kid, I always wanted to hide because I thought I'm ugly.

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You know, just one of those people that refuses to be in any photos.

190
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The first picture I was in, they wanted me to be Bobby Moore. So I was literally at the front.

191
00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:52,520
I was the main character. I thought, yeah, why not?

192
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,550
I think when I look back on this, what am I going to look back on?

193
00:17:56,570 --> 00:18:03,290
I'm going to look back on either refusing to do the project or I'm going to look back on, oh yeah, we made this cool thing.

194
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:09,890
Now I look at the bigger picture. I didn't feel under the spotlight in any of the photos.

195
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,850
I thought I would because I thought I would feel like all eyes were on me.

196
00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:18,180
But it didn't feel like that because you playing a part.

197
00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:24,000
We were making a picture for the project, not because we wanted to show one person off or whatever.

198
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,100
I would always hide in the past and not take part in things because it could go wrong, or I might be judged.

199
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:34,500
But in icon you're not being put on the spot because everyone's doing it as well.

200
00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:43,230
I didn't feel any pressure at all or any sense of I'm being judged, which is weird because I always used to feel like I was being judged.

201
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:48,200
I saw the whole thing through to the end and that was good, knowing that I could do that.

202
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:50,319
I normally get put off.

203
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:58,180
Like if they said this is a five month project before, that would just put me off because I think I don't know if I can do it for that amount of time.

204
00:18:59,250 --> 00:19:04,710
But they'd say, next week we're going to have the photo shoot. And I'd say, okay, I'll turn up to that one.

205
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,030
And before I knew it, I'd already done the whole second half that I was planning to do.

206
00:19:09,930 --> 00:19:15,930
So now I know I can do these things just to turn up and do it rather than thinking about it.

207
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:21,290
So it's helped my confidence. I used to talk myself out of things.

208
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:25,310
I wouldn't try things because I'd be like, oh, I know it's going to go wrong.

209
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:31,680
I know this is going to happen. But I'm not saying I feel like a totally different person, but it is progress.

210
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:38,100
Everything might not be better in a day. It's going to take a while, but nothing bad has happened.

211
00:19:38,730 --> 00:19:45,450
Even though I was worrying about it and that's proved to me I can just keep going because you don't know what's around the corner.

212
00:19:47,870 --> 00:19:54,800
I used to think I didn't really have expressions, but then in these photographs we have to do a different expression in every picture.

213
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,580
And someone said to me, oh, you managed to be so different in every picture.

214
00:19:58,940 --> 00:20:04,429
Like when Rory asked us to do an expression, he had to ask some people to do it differently.

215
00:20:04,430 --> 00:20:09,420
But I found I could just do the expression. When I saw the photos, I thought.

216
00:20:10,570 --> 00:20:18,020
I didn't know I looked like that. When you stuck in the same route, you don't really have a wide range of feelings or expressions and stuff.

217
00:20:18,020 --> 00:20:21,020
You just like everything's all one way.

218
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,430
But then coming here, you just see more of yourself. You see different sides to yourself.

219
00:20:27,210 --> 00:20:31,710
Just being able to be calm and happy, just getting on with people.

220
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,960
I used to think people were going to bully me wherever I go, and that's just not happened at all.

221
00:20:37,950 --> 00:20:46,220
It's such a different experience now. I used to like creative things at home, but when you're at home, you just go off the task.

222
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:50,420
Coming here. It's so much easier because you're coming here for that purpose.

223
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,040
Everyone else is creating something too, so you just feel understood and encouraged.

224
00:20:56,050 --> 00:21:00,180
Because this exhibition's here and it just seems to be art all around.

225
00:21:00,190 --> 00:21:05,130
You just feel more inspired as well, and you just think like other people are creating things.

226
00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:11,390
And when I see that, it makes me want to create more things as well. It's like a never ending thing.

227
00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:15,140
What you can make. I have more belief in myself.

228
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,760
That's the main thing. It was just a positive experience.

229
00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:22,870
The whole thing was positive. I don't think there was anything bad about it.

230
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:31,210
I don't have any regrets at all. I thought I was that person who was too scared and anxious and had nothing to say.

231
00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:38,730
I feel like the only reason I thought that I was that person is because other people have told me that.

232
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,530
Now I'm really curious. What does this mean?

233
00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:49,220
I can do if I've done this? I'm sure there's more sides to me that I didn't even know about.

234
00:21:50,590 --> 00:21:56,520
I need to explore that because I haven't been happy before. I need to see what else is out there.

235
00:21:59,070 --> 00:22:03,790
It's. And. We are looking lovely to you.

236
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:11,930
I don't know, um, anyone has any kind of reflections or, um, anything that struck you listening to that story?

237
00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:21,190
I'll think about 15 minutes of being able to overcome if that's in the activity room.

238
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:29,960
Yeah, I think that, yeah, it really shines through seeing at the end it's going to take in anything else.

239
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:36,830
Yeah. I really like, um, the bit about the you're saying how they never wanted to be in photos for a film.

240
00:22:36,830 --> 00:22:42,370
Not really striking. You know, the sense of like actually not only being comfortable being seen,

241
00:22:42,460 --> 00:22:46,500
but it kind of came across as like they felt, you know, quite authentic in that role.

242
00:22:46,510 --> 00:22:51,100
You know, the comments around didn't have to make up. They didn't have to alter the expressions and things like that.

243
00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:55,510
So that was just really striking about the kind of telling tale that you should always hide.

244
00:22:55,510 --> 00:23:03,340
But then conveying this comfort in, you know, not only being seen but then quite, you know, centrally positioned.

245
00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:09,950
Yeah, and I think storytelling can be quite good at that kind of helping to learn.

246
00:23:10,260 --> 00:23:14,840
You know, beyond those words and really getting a sense of what that meant,

247
00:23:14,910 --> 00:23:18,610
what the practicalities actually meant to somebody in their life in that moment.

248
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:25,970
Yeah. There's also a nice thing about belonging in a sense of belonging, after not having felt that way.

249
00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:29,090
I thought that was really nice to see how they've also included a sort of accumulation effect.

250
00:23:29,930 --> 00:23:35,980
Mhm. And the kind of acceptance that that's kind of help them not the.

251
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:41,320
Want to be part of. It was just the executive power.

252
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:50,630
They are not having to change or benefit almost, but naturally because of that access to legal comfortable really.

253
00:23:51,780 --> 00:23:53,339
Yeah, that's what I liked too,

254
00:23:53,340 --> 00:24:03,230
that this experience gave her the confidence that she could join a group and participate in a group which she had shied away from before.

255
00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:07,799
So power. Right now, she feels she could be good to have.

256
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:13,020
And other contacts who include things I really like about this is, again,

257
00:24:13,020 --> 00:24:19,170
that it gives an example of what that confidence means for her specifically, like something that's being measured is confidence.

258
00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:23,190
Like, what does that mean for you all in the rounds of the little.

259
00:24:23,470 --> 00:24:27,920
And so it's really yeah, it feels really important to capture those details.

260
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,470
Yeah. Not just. It's all a question and opinions.

261
00:24:32,530 --> 00:24:37,000
And at what point were the stories captured by the media?

262
00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:45,389
Within a few weeks. Was it a few years just just out of curiosity, like it tends to be within a month of the project pending.

263
00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:50,510
So we tend to do it towards the end of the project so people have something to reflect back and work on.

264
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:55,020
We have done it in some instances in different stages of the project,

265
00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:58,889
but because of all the work that goes into it, more often than not it's at the end.

266
00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:04,560
So yeah, um, I think it's often helpful, like with this project,

267
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:10,409
we were making space throughout for people to reflect on the context and how they were finding it.

268
00:25:10,410 --> 00:25:18,450
And I think that led to really rich stories of people and, you know, had had given some space already to think about what it meant.

269
00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:23,910
And I think that helped with the depth of reflection that people gave in the final story.

270
00:25:26,260 --> 00:25:34,419
We used it in all standing. It was more of a research approach and actually to people who were still undergoing or engaging in cultural activity.

271
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:37,600
So they were in the moment, as it were, they were still engaging.

272
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,800
So we went evaluating individual services.

273
00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:47,799
We were trying to understand more globally some of the issues and experiences from different sites.

274
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:53,880
So, um, we didn't do it. Well, as I say, people still engage with these activities through.

275
00:25:53,890 --> 00:26:01,090
Yeah. And we have seen actually more and more what it has, it's been kind of brought into this research space or at least give us kind of more

276
00:26:01,690 --> 00:26:06,549
people are kind of often initiating a project or a process by asking people sit down,

277
00:26:06,550 --> 00:26:09,970
have those conversations rather than at the end because they live on missions.

278
00:26:09,970 --> 00:26:16,930
And so it depends slightly in practice from using the tool. And the sites really liked it because we produced for each of the sites that was involved,

279
00:26:16,930 --> 00:26:21,639
we collected stories that we produced a short report for them, which they were then able to act upon.

280
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,580
Some of the things that come out of the documents,

281
00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:29,770
and some of it was really helpful for when they were go for funding and things like that to sort of support what they were doing.

282
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:37,210
Yeah. And then I remember the, um, my colleagues, I was on maternity leave at the time of the discussions about project saying.

283
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:41,290
Another thing that came out was, um, a lot of the women, you know,

284
00:26:41,290 --> 00:26:47,440
some of the women that stories were collected from women of Caribbean heritage having stories edited in their voices.

285
00:26:47,770 --> 00:26:56,270
So people really felt seen and like, oh, yeah, that's me talking in a way that, um, often, you know, things are kind of summarised.

286
00:26:56,270 --> 00:27:00,390
It's actually a little voices silver raised. So, um, yeah.

287
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,640
So hearing yourself and stories can be quite recurring themes of people.

288
00:27:06,050 --> 00:27:15,020
And both of those in that last line, which is being talked about how to be happy with all these people moving.

289
00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:26,270
It's funny to think if you would have asked this person, why are you not participating in this program and don't like it?

290
00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:29,840
Um, so it's funny to think that.

291
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:37,920
This is a story about the person finding old too, revealing old excuses not to do what he'd really want she wanted to do.

292
00:27:39,250 --> 00:27:44,470
To be happy, you know, and kind of I'm relatively small.

293
00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:48,850
So for some reason, I didn't really do what I really want to do.

294
00:27:49,150 --> 00:27:55,360
And it's it feels powerful to me that somebody can, uh, can recognise that and themselves as well.

295
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,810
Yeah, I know, so it's really moving.

296
00:27:57,820 --> 00:28:06,309
I agree that loss is still insecure, and I think that's another parent's resourcefulness that they can connect with people on an emotional level.

297
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:09,550
So we found particularly the discussion sessions,

298
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,709
especially in moments where people in the room from different walks of life, you know, often funders,

299
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:19,360
people who are maybe not connected to the work on the ground in the same way that we might be,

300
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:25,089
but it's that chance for people to really hear voices and, uh, to connect and feel moved.

301
00:28:25,090 --> 00:28:31,809
And often that's the stuff that makes people really understand the value of the work and like, really kind of.

302
00:28:31,810 --> 00:28:34,450
Yeah. Also want to continue funding the work often as well.

303
00:28:34,450 --> 00:28:42,819
So, um, yeah, that kind of power to through stories to really connect with people, with stories I've been doing for as long as time.

304
00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:46,150
So, um, yeah. Sticking with this. Okay.

305
00:28:46,750 --> 00:28:52,060
Yeah. Um, I was curious about if what you said that it shouldn't seem like an interview.

306
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,450
Um. And what you mean by that? And I will.

307
00:28:59,210 --> 00:29:04,480
I'll answer that. But then I might hold on to the questions, because at the end we're going to have space for that, I guess.

308
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,600
And I know that across different, you know.

309
00:29:09,820 --> 00:29:17,020
Different, um, aspects of academia people are into, you know, interviews, commingling very expansive things.

310
00:29:17,290 --> 00:29:22,719
So I think what I mean by that is thinking about a more kind of conventional, um, way of interlink,

311
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,850
somebody, which is a list of questions that you're kind of just asking and working through somebody.

312
00:29:28,210 --> 00:29:32,680
And I think, um, that what we're trying to do with storytelling is,

313
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:38,499
is to shift away from someone feeling so kind of like put on the spot and interviewed and more kind

314
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:43,330
of there with somebody reflecting and thinking through their experience of what it's meant to them.

315
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,560
So that's why we have this like skeleton with four questions, the ground we want to cover.

316
00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:51,309
And we do have a list of questions because, um, yeah,

317
00:29:51,310 --> 00:29:58,600
we find that that comes sometimes with a particular power dynamic and that often and in actually lots of questions,

318
00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:03,850
we found that can mean that you move on quicker on something, where do you stick with it?

319
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,120
And then you pause in the silence again and space and you just go a bit deeper, sometimes more noise.

320
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,040
Um, but yeah, I'd say that recognising there's lots of aspects, there's lots of ways to intervene,

321
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,709
that people do adopt, ways that might be more aligned with this direction of of storytelling.

322
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:23,320
So it's just another question.

323
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:30,580
I was wondering, how do you select the storytellers and do you have a good consensus about that, or have you thought about that?

324
00:30:30,580 --> 00:30:35,050
And he sort of, I don't know, personality sort of clashes, maybe not.

325
00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:41,260
Um, I guess we could collect. Did we identify the storytellers?

326
00:30:41,260 --> 00:30:45,129
Uh, really often we're thinking about a breadth of perspectives.

327
00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:48,670
So more often than not you can't collect say from everyone.

328
00:30:48,670 --> 00:30:53,290
So it's a limited number of stories. So it's thinking about how do we what do we want to learn.

329
00:30:53,290 --> 00:30:58,179
And therefore whose voice is it really important that we hear from to help us learn about that?

330
00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:04,180
So it's often that way. Uh, we do. So sometimes we're hoping that it's the group itself who would like to sell the story.

331
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:11,290
But more often than not, we find people don't, um, come forward themselves and you give them an invitation.

332
00:31:11,290 --> 00:31:14,679
It feels different to just being said. Would you like if anyone would, like, tell the stories?

333
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,839
It's tended to be three that way too.

334
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:26,469
Quite a lot of care goes into thinking about who collects the stories to manage our dynamics, and thinking about, um, who someone could speak open to.

335
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:27,250
That's what those are.

336
00:31:27,250 --> 00:31:35,950
So there's a bit of matchmaking and excuse me, that's why I feel you have a pull through collective, but also reflect the breadth of experiences.

337
00:31:35,950 --> 00:31:40,120
So you could do that matchmaking with other people, um, public schools.

338
00:31:41,070 --> 00:31:46,110
Um, I'm going to just pose questions that we will at the end of time to read from back.

339
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:50,090
Um, because I wanted to, uh.

340
00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:59,660
Just, um. Give you a sense of how it's been used beyond just how we've used that.

341
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:04,400
Your fascination with Stephanie's already given some really helpful and concepts to.

342
00:32:04,550 --> 00:32:07,940
Um, so as I mentioned, we've used it with 200 partners.

343
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:16,070
Um, and that's really range from like local authorities, you know, parts of the university there,

344
00:32:16,090 --> 00:32:21,500
lots of cultural partners, research institutions, lots of, uh, community action groups.

345
00:32:21,530 --> 00:32:25,160
Um, um, kind of, you know, local community organisations.

346
00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:29,150
Um, but people have used it to evaluate the impact of the project.

347
00:32:29,150 --> 00:32:35,780
So not similar to what you did with Ikon, but we've seen people, um, yeah, using it across a range of different projects.

348
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:43,370
Um, the impact of an organisation. So thinking about what does this collecting from people you work with in different ways,

349
00:32:43,370 --> 00:32:47,270
and what does this tell us about us and our mission and, and that sort of thing.

350
00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:52,009
Um, we've seen that use, uh, to understand the impact of the service,

351
00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:57,800
which I'm going to speak a little bit more about in a moment, but happy to use it to help them understand social describing.

352
00:32:58,460 --> 00:33:03,260
Um, and also kind of, uh, a shared area focus across a network of partners.

353
00:33:03,260 --> 00:33:11,180
So one example that's very light us at the moment is we're working with Brooks County Council Healthy Ageing and Health Equity grants,

354
00:33:11,180 --> 00:33:14,450
which are two grants. Um, and they're we trained up there.

355
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:26,419
Uh, we've offered kind of story collective training to, um, their grantees who are collecting stories and will then bring kind of grantees together,

356
00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:33,409
along with funders and other partners, to look at the stories collectively and think about what's the learning about the impacts of this grant.

357
00:33:33,410 --> 00:33:43,070
So kind of yeah, see that used in that way too. Um, and increasingly as part of wider research, just like the case study exhibit, a good example of.

358
00:33:44,030 --> 00:33:52,069
And yeah, one one example I wanted to just hone in on a little, um, that, uh, may connect with,

359
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:58,040
with, I guess what you're focussed on, um, is, uh, social, uh, storytelling project.

360
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:08,680
We ran on social prescribing with each. Um, and this was a pilot project that, um, we wanted to kind of understand, uh, wanted to see, like what?

361
00:34:08,870 --> 00:34:17,600
How could storytelling help us understand the impact of social prescribing work that was happening across arts show and led by EGCg.

362
00:34:17,630 --> 00:34:23,390
So we trained up the, um, team and kind of volunteers that they worked with.

363
00:34:23,870 --> 00:34:32,419
Um, and we collected the stories of five clients who had, you know, received support for social prescribing, and to my co-workers and,

364
00:34:32,420 --> 00:34:40,640
and the senior manager from age UK and ask people for questions about their involvement, change for them, why change is important and how it happens.

365
00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:47,250
And then we brought together 20 people from across, um, the sector to discuss the stories and think about learning.

366
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:53,509
So that was everything from, uh, people who received their support through social prescribing to, uh,

367
00:34:53,510 --> 00:35:00,440
you know, link workers to funders and commissioners and other kind of relevant partners locally as well.

368
00:35:01,190 --> 00:35:08,300
Um, and there's a whole report that that kind of, um, drills into the learning, but came from that process.

369
00:35:08,810 --> 00:35:16,880
Um, but the first one was, uh, it was really kind of insightful about, as you would imagine, about the experiences of social prescribing clients.

370
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:27,580
And it really reinforced that often people's, um, people accessing, uh, social prescribing, um, had experience loss of some sort.

371
00:35:27,590 --> 00:35:37,010
So often that was loss of a partner loss, um, of an area, the health and wellbeing or um, yeah, loss of their comfort.

372
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:39,020
And there's a sense of loss across the stories.

373
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:48,860
And it really showed that kind of, you know, through well designed support that people were able to rediscover both purpose and um,

374
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,690
and being and it really brought that to light in quite a kind of visceral way.

375
00:35:52,700 --> 00:36:03,139
So kind of hearing about, um, you know, somebody who was accessing a silver pride group who kind of never had the space to connect with others who,

376
00:36:03,140 --> 00:36:11,750
you know, identified as LGBTQ plus was just just how powerful that was for so much sense of identity and belonging,

377
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:15,979
um, in the world and, and equally, people who lost partners, you know,

378
00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:23,420
who were kind of had lost hope having somebody to work alongside them and help them re-engage with the world and,

379
00:36:23,420 --> 00:36:28,340
and work through the matrix to the full show of, of just rebuilding a life.

380
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:33,499
Just what what these, um, uh, social prescribers had meant to people and, like,

381
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:38,480
work this um, and then that I also shared a lot of like on the role of social prescriber.

382
00:36:38,490 --> 00:36:46,880
So, um, just holistic that role was how adaptive it was, how much it was focussed on preventative,

383
00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:55,130
which is a really hard thing to be able to demonstrate impact around and and storytelling there, and good job of showing that sense of like.

384
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,580
Where people were and what could have happened if that help hadn't intervened to people's lives.

385
00:37:00,580 --> 00:37:07,870
That was powerful in that respect. And then they also really shed light on the context that social prescribers are working in,

386
00:37:07,870 --> 00:37:13,419
and how complex AI is and how much people are navigating, um, and, uh,

387
00:37:13,420 --> 00:37:17,590
just how limited resources are to help people to navigate that system and,

388
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:25,000
and embody all of the skills that come with having to sit with somebody that advocate for their needs and be part of the wider network as well.

389
00:37:25,010 --> 00:37:30,040
So and the very top line, but these were the things that the stories really kind of brought home.

390
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:36,040
And then what was it really interesting as well was the learning that came from that process around the method.

391
00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:40,480
So, um, you know, really it reinforced that storytelling.

392
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:46,210
Uh, it worked well in a context that was about being relationship based.

393
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:54,430
It was very context specific. So everybody being very different at how they were engaging with social prescribing and it being so relevant,

394
00:37:54,430 --> 00:37:59,320
the context that they were operating in to understand the impact and what it meant for them.

395
00:37:59,650 --> 00:38:02,950
And that, as I mentioned, the preventative nature of social prescribing, too.

396
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:07,840
Um, it also the with some of the challenges and I've just followed a few rooms here, there's more.

397
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,419
But then they did also show the challenges around the method in bringing together their stakeholders.

398
00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:17,890
So, um, that we'd intended to collect a story from a clinician.

399
00:38:18,310 --> 00:38:27,040
Um, um, we didn't manage to do that, and we didn't manage to get any along that the discussion session either, and similarly with commissioners.

400
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:34,930
Um, so, yeah, it just that was, uh, a challenge of just this method being a means to engage people, but not not quite managing that.

401
00:38:35,410 --> 00:38:42,010
And then and then thirdly, just reinforcing as well that it's time consuming and it's resource intensive and that,

402
00:38:42,010 --> 00:38:47,830
you know, in an under-resourced healthcare sector that can make this a barrier for people using this method.

403
00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:56,350
Um, so, yeah, there are some of the things that just to give you a flavour of how it's been used and within a kind of healthcare context.

404
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:00,860
Um, the final thing I just wanted to touch on.

405
00:39:00,860 --> 00:39:09,979
I guess this is where this work has taken off. So, um, as I've mentioned, we've we've trained lots of people in storytelling,

406
00:39:09,980 --> 00:39:16,880
but we've also found ourselves increasingly part of conversations around around what meaningful measurement looks like.

407
00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:25,790
And, um, through often connecting people over shared frustrations with some of the more kind of conventional ways of measurement that work.

408
00:39:26,270 --> 00:39:34,009
Um, thinking about, you know, how do we shift away from measurement that is prioritises the needs of funders and commissioners,

409
00:39:34,010 --> 00:39:37,879
often at the expense of the participants in a project that,

410
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:45,830
you know, is not really telling us, um, anything meaningful, um, that isn't aligned with our values, that can undermine relationships.

411
00:39:45,830 --> 00:39:51,709
How do we how do we move away from that and shift towards something that is about, you know,

412
00:39:51,710 --> 00:39:59,240
centring the experiences of participants, um, so that they can shape the decisions we make and what we prioritise.

413
00:39:59,270 --> 00:40:03,360
Um, how do we move from it being centred around improve it.

414
00:40:03,410 --> 00:40:07,100
Right. Moving to improving and, and what that means.

415
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:08,719
Um, and,

416
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:18,500
and fundamental to that is how do we within the culture of organisations embed more of a culture of learning that says learning is what we do?

417
00:40:18,530 --> 00:40:25,099
You know, in the same way that, you know, health and safety shouldn't be optional, learning shouldn't be optional.

418
00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:31,100
We need it's it's crucial to help us to like, improve our work, to like sound, to people's voices.

419
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:34,700
Um, so yeah, how do we how do we make that shift happen?

420
00:40:34,820 --> 00:40:41,899
Um, and we've been having that conversation for several years, and I certainly have been part of, of parts of it as well.

421
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:49,040
Um, and most recently we, um, put together we with the centre for Social Enterprise,

422
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:54,230
we published a playbook of meaningful measurement, which is thinking a bit about what meaningful measurement is.

423
00:40:54,440 --> 00:41:00,050
It draws on our work in storytelling, and it thinks about how do what do these shapes actually mean?

424
00:41:00,170 --> 00:41:05,800
How do you make this happen? If you are a founder and commissioner, Heidi can be a grantee, like where can you begin?

425
00:41:05,810 --> 00:41:08,690
So that is yeah, just a sense of, I guess,

426
00:41:09,170 --> 00:41:14,900
some of the undertones or what is underpinning some of the work that we're doing around storytelling as well.

427
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,110
Um. I'm aware of times. I'll stop there.

428
00:41:19,260 --> 00:41:23,700
Um, yeah. And I just wanted to give some space to the questions that you might have.

429
00:41:24,090 --> 00:41:29,600
Um, and it can be anything that's coming up. It could be about the method, could be about how it's used or if it.

430
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:34,200
It would be interesting to hear, I guess if it relates to your work in practice,

431
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,490
how you've maybe experience using storytelling or something similar as well.

432
00:41:38,970 --> 00:41:43,320
Um, yeah. So I was just wondering if you've got examples of it being used within.

433
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:49,140
I don't think you got any where your time. For me, it feels quite nice that that sort of an.

434
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,720
The power is with the person telling the story, and I just wondered whether it has been used in that way.

435
00:41:55,650 --> 00:42:00,210
It has. It has certainly been used to like co-production network.

436
00:42:00,330 --> 00:42:10,140
Um, that's a branch of UCL. Have, um, used storytelling as a method to help them evaluate some of the impact of their work.

437
00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:16,600
So very much thinking that that feels like there's the potential to bring people in to train people,

438
00:42:16,620 --> 00:42:21,130
the story collectors, and bring people into that process, like a sense making.

439
00:42:21,150 --> 00:42:24,320
So I know it has been used in that context.

440
00:42:24,330 --> 00:42:30,800
Um, but it was one of those instances where we trained in psychology and the specifics of how that went.

441
00:42:30,810 --> 00:42:35,459
But I know it feels like it does really align. And yeah, I think it has been used in that way.

442
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:42,420
And certainly for us, that's one of the appeals, is that we kind of I guess, you know, I mean, lots of different things.

443
00:42:42,420 --> 00:42:45,900
We, we, we do a lot of co-creation and, and it feels important that.

444
00:42:46,770 --> 00:42:53,849
Yeah, the evaluation reflects that too. So I would also say that and Caroline, who was involved in this work as well to study.

445
00:42:53,850 --> 00:42:58,319
So we've co-produced uh tool to help cultural organisations.

446
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,660
But it's been very much from some of this work.

447
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,540
And for me that feels to be a participatory sort of co-production element, but also knowledge exchange as well,

448
00:43:06,810 --> 00:43:12,930
because we're letting the funders and the, um, managers, etcetera, know what we're finding at the same time.

449
00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:20,819
Um, so it's been really useful for both elements, but we definitely developed this tool that's going to be launched next month from some of

450
00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:25,709
these discussions with not just reciprocal people who have involved in the activities,

451
00:43:25,710 --> 00:43:31,920
but also people who are providing them with volunteers. There was a lot of people involved in developing this tool,

452
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:39,210
and that's because we have these storytelling discussions where we sat around and talked about a set of stories for that organisation,

453
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:48,330
and it just it's just. And how does storytelling differ from, um, narrative review or just storytelling,

454
00:43:48,330 --> 00:43:52,160
or could storytelling feed into that of religious communities that might be of interest?

455
00:43:52,380 --> 00:43:57,630
I mean, I I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it because I don't know a lot about narrative review.

456
00:43:57,630 --> 00:44:02,190
I guess we come in at very much, first of all, in that sense of just using the valuation.

457
00:44:02,190 --> 00:44:07,139
So we don't really have that same. So yeah, I don't know. Do you have thoughts on how it's similar?

458
00:44:07,140 --> 00:44:15,930
I, I mean, I think I know some of my colleagues and I've done this before, but it sounds like it could be something that's used in one.

459
00:44:15,930 --> 00:44:22,110
I don't think anyone else can answer my question. It just sounded like a closely linked or could be as I think.

460
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,950
Yeah, I don't really know enough about doing a sort of narrative analysis to make it work well.

461
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:37,460
So I've had to. I mean, I had a colleague who did an ad for her PhD narrative for views of women who've been separated from their children.

462
00:44:37,470 --> 00:44:40,640
That was three, and for separation for variety of reasons.

463
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:46,590
So took stories from native women and then looked at those, but looked at them as narratives along with those.

464
00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:49,920
And I just you just listening to you, it sounded okay.

465
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,689
There could be things that could just be connected. And I just I wasn't sure.

466
00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:58,739
So yeah, I think there's overlaps, I suppose. What for me, um,

467
00:44:58,740 --> 00:45:05,549
storytelling did was focussed on the most significant change and it was very much focussed on and we used as part of a realist project.

468
00:45:05,550 --> 00:45:08,850
So we were interested in outcomes but not imposing outcomes.

469
00:45:09,210 --> 00:45:14,460
Um, so it was really useful writing a paper on it at the moment about how we used it in a realist project.

470
00:45:14,910 --> 00:45:16,620
But I think there's there are overlaps.

471
00:45:16,620 --> 00:45:27,060
But for me, that meaningful change, um, and you probably analysed data very differently, um, compared to a more narrative style approach.

472
00:45:27,810 --> 00:45:36,090
But yeah, I would agree with that. Um, but this definitely is synergies and kind of just centring that voice and discussion and, and.

473
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,499
Yeah. I will add a couple of questions.

474
00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:42,560
First one, do you offer any trainings for researchers?

475
00:45:42,690 --> 00:45:48,139
And the second one is do you offer or maybe you know of any trainings,

476
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:54,680
not necessarily from research, journalism or whatever field that does intelligence or storytelling.

477
00:45:55,770 --> 00:46:02,580
To elicit more. Uh, not necessarily sensitive topics, but.

478
00:46:03,730 --> 00:46:12,100
Um, for my research purpose, I need to interview patients to find out when they go against medical advice,

479
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:17,440
when they do things that they know is not what they are supposed to do.

480
00:46:17,740 --> 00:46:21,549
And I very much like to uncover what is the actual practice,

481
00:46:21,550 --> 00:46:31,930
but potentially lack the tools to conduct such an interview that encourages sharing, not what is expected, but what actually happens.

482
00:46:31,930 --> 00:46:37,720
Do you know? So? So you do you provide trainings and do you know of any things that you could recommend?

483
00:46:38,110 --> 00:46:41,139
Um, so we we do provide training.

484
00:46:41,140 --> 00:46:50,290
So we have every three months we hold an open training workshops and three price buckets to kind of, you know, pay more based on the pay less.

485
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,720
Um, and our next one is actually it is it starts on Thursday.

486
00:46:56,140 --> 00:46:59,890
Um, the 1 to 1, the following one will be in May.

487
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:07,180
So we have every three months that I can share with Stephanie the the information of trainings and things we do offer that we also offer,

488
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,080
uh, more bespoke trainings like we did with the TS project.

489
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:16,630
But, you know, like a particular project or organisation who is interested in using storytelling.

490
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,569
And your research is so interesting.

491
00:47:19,570 --> 00:47:27,760
I, I in truth, I don't I think I think a lot of the kind of principles of storytelling are about how do you put someone at ease.

492
00:47:28,450 --> 00:47:33,940
So we're collecting how do you create space if someone feels they can speak openly with you?

493
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:40,150
Um, how do you support someone to feel that what they have to say is really matters?

494
00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:46,450
Um, but in terms of how to. Yeah, I can't think of anything specific around that.

495
00:47:46,450 --> 00:47:51,790
How do you create a space of somebody who feels and can speak to those things of any kind?

496
00:47:51,820 --> 00:47:59,470
Uh, yeah. I guess I would say there's a lot. And also thinking about positionality and yeah, in terms of how you create that speaks to you and your.

497
00:48:00,730 --> 00:48:04,600
I guess the storytelling always like it's it happens in the room and it's just two hours,

498
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,890
but it begins so much more in terms of projects and reviews, which is something I've thought about a lot on.

499
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,629
It's kind of he's, you know, he's telling people, he's inviting people to tell a story,

500
00:48:13,630 --> 00:48:19,980
all these things where the trust, where the existing trust lies and therefore where you think you can come in.

501
00:48:20,260 --> 00:48:25,300
Yeah. That's one of the things I would think about. But yeah, training of Sports Academy, I think I'll be very happy to.

502
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:31,060
We also have a and it's kind of it doesn't have the same depth of training, but we have a toolkit as well,

503
00:48:31,450 --> 00:48:36,580
which has some of the kind of overarching ideas in it might, might be of interest.

504
00:48:36,590 --> 00:48:43,030
So yeah, because we've shared that space with your project is making sure people don't feel blamed for not doing what they should be involved.

505
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:47,469
Was quite, you know, that what was most significant for you in terms of how you did it could,

506
00:48:47,470 --> 00:48:51,390
I suppose, be a phrasing of the wording so that you're doing it?

507
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,670
Not saying that this is likely to be that you're not blaming them. You.

508
00:48:57,290 --> 00:48:59,839
I'm not really sure how to phrase this, so apologies in advance,

509
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:06,530
but I guess it leads on in like the more than psychological perspective, because it feels like a lot of what's been done.

510
00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:11,600
So it's kind of a trust safety and then these really emotive topics.

511
00:49:12,140 --> 00:49:20,230
Do you get much feedback that people actually find it to have an emotional process and like a helpful process to take part?

512
00:49:21,020 --> 00:49:28,220
Yeah, I mean, we think that it can be um, it can it kind of depends what people share.

513
00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:36,230
Like, um, it can be quite, uh, a hard thing and often sometimes, you know, it's not.

514
00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:44,830
So people are given the space where somebody feels different and regular conversation of the floor is being given to you as a solution.

515
00:49:44,830 --> 00:49:48,979
And sometimes once people start talking, it can unlock all sorts of things.

516
00:49:48,980 --> 00:49:53,360
So we do think about safeguarding around it, and it can bring things up for people that are hard.

517
00:49:53,930 --> 00:49:58,460
Um, but equally, more often than not, we find people.

518
00:49:59,070 --> 00:50:06,410
I could find it quite cathartic and quite like, you know, hopefully feel valued, listened to, and that's positive thing.

519
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:13,370
But we've also found that starting the conversation around what's changed for you can be quite a positive thing.

520
00:50:13,370 --> 00:50:16,970
So, you know, particularly in the context of our work, you know,

521
00:50:17,150 --> 00:50:21,799
often people who've experienced volunteers have had to tell the same stories about themselves,

522
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,510
a lot to access services, and it's often not focusing on the change.

523
00:50:26,510 --> 00:50:28,190
So focusing on the things that have gone wrong.

524
00:50:28,610 --> 00:50:34,889
And through this, it's a challenge for somebody to retell the story from that place of like, where am I now?

525
00:50:34,890 --> 00:50:39,980
And what's changed? And that can feel quite empowering and, and um, often.

526
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:45,229
Yeah. So when you give people about the story, they say, oh yeah, those things are true about me, you know.

527
00:50:45,230 --> 00:50:48,560
And so that can be a really powerful thing for people.

528
00:50:48,590 --> 00:50:51,840
Um, but yeah, it can also be a really hard thing.

529
00:50:51,840 --> 00:51:01,120
And it's, it's rare. But we have had I can think of two instances where somebody said, I don't want to use that story just in workplaces.

530
00:51:01,140 --> 00:51:04,430
I don't really want to go again.

531
00:51:04,430 --> 00:51:10,070
And there is something about having that because it's very human centred in the moment, thinking like.

532
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:16,390
But what place is somebody in? And sometimes it's not the right thing to tell the story.

533
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,540
So that's something we try and get rid of. And people come in and and there's a lot of thought around.

534
00:51:21,950 --> 00:51:28,669
The what goes around like the biscuits, the welcome, all those things that help people to kind of hopefully feel good going into.

535
00:51:28,670 --> 00:51:33,739
But yeah, so, so good. So yeah, thank you for that question. Also in the two study that I've mentioned.

536
00:51:33,740 --> 00:51:35,799
So it was with cultural organisations.

537
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:43,910
So we made sure that one member of that organisation knew who was going to be doing storytelling, and they were there as a sort of debriefing.

538
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:49,400
That person wanted some support going woods. And that was something that you recommended in your station.

539
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:55,099
And then the other thing was the older people who took part talked about feeling really proud of their stories,

540
00:51:55,100 --> 00:51:57,740
because they might have talked to the research for two hours.

541
00:51:58,010 --> 00:52:04,790
And then we condensed with the help of the of our station, using the original words the participants put into two pages,

542
00:52:05,060 --> 00:52:11,850
which is quite difficult to do, but they really felt that, you know, they showed it to the family that were really I don't think we got any negatives,

543
00:52:11,930 --> 00:52:14,930
but we definitely got some responses that, you know, wow, this is great.

544
00:52:14,930 --> 00:52:18,540
You know, to see my words in, you know, this book like, you know,

545
00:52:18,650 --> 00:52:26,190
feels that doesn't quite relate to narrative or yes, we are condensing a lot of changes and reframing it back to.

546
00:52:26,330 --> 00:52:30,250
Yeah. And so we also I'm thinking back to that HC project.

547
00:52:30,260 --> 00:52:39,260
There was a man on that. He told his story, um, of having lost his partner and kind of lost his way in life and being kind of at rock bottom and then,

548
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,579
you know, over time building things back and him sharing that through this family.

549
00:52:44,580 --> 00:52:47,510
And so I was able to, like, talk to my family about what I went through.

550
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:51,499
But I feel that this and it's like a way of kind of looking at that conversation as well.

551
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:55,130
So, you know, it can be it can be really useful things on a lot of fronts.

552
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,599
Like, yeah, I was interested in your comment about, um, your reflections on that group.

553
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:05,270
That part of the workshop involved supporting people to develop skills in reflection, storytelling.

554
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:11,750
And I will, if I understand that correctly, like, to what degree do you feel that that,

555
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:17,389
um, did you think that was a key component in using this approach with a patient groups?

556
00:53:17,390 --> 00:53:25,580
Because I guess some people are more naturally reflective than other people, that there's a skill that might be lost about that.

557
00:53:25,620 --> 00:53:30,919
Yeah. That's right. I think, um, I don't think it's critical, but I think it's helpful.

558
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:37,219
And I do think often in the like teeing of the conversations, very often the way it goes,

559
00:53:37,220 --> 00:53:43,700
if somebody says, I've not got anything to say, and then they begin to start telling you,

560
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:47,929
but in that kind of, you know, introducing what will happen, they begin to start talking,

561
00:53:47,930 --> 00:53:53,450
and then people kind of begin to start reflecting there and, and realise they do have things to say.

562
00:53:53,630 --> 00:54:01,970
So I think there is definitely something in like helping people before they arrive in that space to start to understand what they're going into,

563
00:54:01,970 --> 00:54:10,490
maybe start to reflect. But but actually we find like it can be really helpful, not overprepare, because that's when you can just sit down.

564
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,300
And often people do think about what they want to say, and they do that.

565
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,680
And that takes the first 20 minutes and then they start and they relax.

566
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,680
And then you ask another question that was a bit deeper.

567
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,319
And that's when the really interesting, like reflective conversations.

568
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:34,220
That's when you just reflecting with somebody. Um, so yeah, I think enough preparation for people to feel that they.

569
00:54:35,290 --> 00:54:40,089
Feel assured to go into that conversation, Booth. But I don't mean it's very vital to have had that.

570
00:54:40,090 --> 00:54:46,110
I just think the main thing is you feel comfortable. Um, and yeah, not not to overprepare or worry about.

571
00:54:47,410 --> 00:54:55,720
Having something you know you could sing about. I wondered if you had any examples of people coming from the crisis side of life.

572
00:54:56,050 --> 00:54:59,600
He went on to trying to collect the stories. Yeah we do.

573
00:54:59,620 --> 00:55:03,160
We have in our story collecting team we have, I can think of them.

574
00:55:03,580 --> 00:55:08,000
I think we've trained five people and we have two still with us, I think so three.

575
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,320
Yeah. Yeah, three. So yeah, that has that has happened.

576
00:55:11,860 --> 00:55:21,969
Um, and yeah, we're kind of a fortunate position where, you know, where crisis work would people over however long period.

577
00:55:21,970 --> 00:55:25,090
But then they often have a sustained relationship with us in different ways.

578
00:55:25,090 --> 00:55:30,460
So this means that you might take part in a project, but actually the person doing the story is not on a board,

579
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:35,930
you know, so they begin to and yeah, we can get them, keep them involved with each other.

580
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:45,490
We can. Yeah. And and sometimes I know that there's a project in Oxfordshire, um, Leif who work for lived experience advisory for.

581
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:51,790
And we train them as storytelling and they are people who make space appointments this and they thought it was really, really important.

582
00:55:51,790 --> 00:56:00,489
But when they were collecting. So for people, that series of homelessness came from somebody who could relate to that experience,

583
00:56:00,490 --> 00:56:06,130
which I don't think it always has to be the case, but certainly it can be really helpful for some people feel they can speak openly.

584
00:56:06,550 --> 00:56:10,120
And so yeah, yeah, it's some instances. Yeah.

585
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:15,600
Kind of related to that question in terms of the relationship building and also your question around how does it different narrative analysis?

586
00:56:15,610 --> 00:56:18,459
I was just wondering the the people who collect the stories,

587
00:56:18,460 --> 00:56:22,740
are they then the same people who will then go through them and make those choices about how to take,

588
00:56:22,750 --> 00:56:29,860
you know, an hour long conversation and create it, you know, into this 1 to 2 page, um, story.

589
00:56:29,860 --> 00:56:37,479
Um, because I'm just wondering, did you talk about, you know, the relationship building and thinking about how you pair people up in first instance?

590
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,260
Um, so that people are comfortable with their, uh, story collector?

591
00:56:41,470 --> 00:56:48,130
Is that is it important to have consistency then, with that's the person who's then looking at it and we'll come back to them to present,

592
00:56:48,790 --> 00:56:51,339
you know, version of the story to discuss with them.

593
00:56:51,340 --> 00:56:57,399
Or might you have other people who get involved, um, at that point where you're kind of creating the story and, um, of the full material?

594
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:58,210
It's a good question.

595
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:06,850
I would say for the most part, we actually it's sometimes simpler if you can just go in and collect story and books and have a good conversation,

596
00:57:07,180 --> 00:57:10,330
rather than your mind wandering to like, oh, that connects.

597
00:57:10,750 --> 00:57:18,130
See, this is good. That's what I found myself do. It's kind of you can almost start editing the story in your mind while you're listening.

598
00:57:18,140 --> 00:57:26,650
It can interfere with the way you're listening to somebody. So often we find it can be really helpful just for your role to be collecting the stories.

599
00:57:26,650 --> 00:57:29,920
And then for that transcription, do somebody else edit the story.

600
00:57:30,190 --> 00:57:33,399
But sometimes with small teams, that's a luxury.

601
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:38,200
And so it ends up being the same person that that does both. And in some ways that can speed up the process.

602
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:46,419
Because you were in that conversation and you felt where the really important things were, you okay, it can be helpful.

603
00:57:46,420 --> 00:57:50,920
But we yeah, we tend to where possible, you know, keep those little separate.

604
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:59,319
And we did in the two stories though mainly Deborah did the interviews and then editors edited it from the fire station.

605
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,830
And that was partly pragmatic because she didn't have time.

606
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,370
She did a couple, but it took her a long time because she was very new to it and was getting advice and feedback.

607
00:58:06,910 --> 00:58:08,649
But she said actually it was quite helpful.

608
00:58:08,650 --> 00:58:13,780
And what she then did was when they'd edited it, she'd read it through and think, oh, I think it's missing.

609
00:58:13,780 --> 00:58:19,479
It needs a bit more of this part of the story, but we always make sure that we send it back to the person as well.

610
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:27,090
And they got the final say on what's missing. What do we need to, um, you know, is there anything that you want to take out of particularly.

611
00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:34,000
And then we didn't get many occasionally the occasional bits, but most of them were happy with the way the stories had been edited.

612
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,640
And it's, um, it's an arts. It takes lonely people to take a while to get.

613
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,129
Once you've got your groove, it speeds up. But it's.

614
00:58:42,130 --> 00:58:49,180
Yeah, it's not to underestimate the time that you can be taking that concept and editing it chronologically, necessarily.

615
00:58:49,570 --> 00:58:52,570
You take bits that make the story flow.

616
00:58:52,570 --> 00:58:56,380
It's all the person's words, but you might take a bit from the middle that goes at the beginning.

617
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:59,950
That is the bit where they start talking about how they got. Yeah. Yeah.

618
00:59:00,340 --> 00:59:04,730
It's it's interesting. It does. Yeah. Yeah. We're about half past so I know.

619
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,110
Yeah. Unless there's any final burning question we'll find especially.

620
00:59:09,130 --> 00:59:17,470
Yeah. Um, when you put the transcripts together, did you ever have a situation where the storyteller wasn't actually able to read that back?

621
00:59:17,470 --> 00:59:23,890
And how did you navigate that if you, if that just happened? Um, because, uh, just limited literacy.

622
00:59:23,890 --> 00:59:28,750
Yeah. We have had that where we've had to sit down and read through a story with somebody.

623
00:59:28,780 --> 00:59:38,980
And um, we've also had instances where it's actually somebody find it quite hard to revisit that story because it's quite challenging story to them.

624
00:59:39,580 --> 00:59:44,590
And so something we learned was it can be can always like this things always I think you've got all the time.

625
00:59:44,590 --> 00:59:49,680
And then at the end of this time pressure to get all the approvals and the, the some of our learning for that is.

626
00:59:49,820 --> 00:59:55,640
Maybe we needed to give more space. So people said maybe they needed to wait to enter a headspace for an asteroid.

627
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:59,130
So, um, yeah, I think we have to be patient.

628
00:59:59,150 --> 01:00:03,140
I guess that's all for next week. And but thank you. I really enjoyed your questions.

629
01:00:03,170 --> 01:00:06,200
Um, and yeah, it's going to be next, like you said.