[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] For those who are doing things. This module is not part of session of the day.
So those who are from the department, thanks for coming along. Um.
I'm really pleased that Sarah's come along to, um, talk to us today about storytelling.
So a little bit of history, um, in terms of ourselves.
So, Sarah, what's that? The old fire station.
And they really helped us with a project that we've been doing on, uh, cultural social prescribing for older people from Thailand, which is great.
And from that we've developed something that we call the circle tool, which is there to support organisations.
So theatres, docs, groups, music groups to be inclusive, uh, accessible to all the people from uh, ethnic minority or global majority groups.
Um, as part of that project we use storytelling. So we got training from Sarah and Will, who uh, Sarah works with.
Um, it's been a really lovely piece of work. Um, Deborah, who I worked with, did a lot of the actual story collections, but, um,
I'm going to hand over to Sarah now, who's going to tell us a bit more about storytelling.
Right. Thank you. Stephanie. Um, and hi, everybody, and thank you for having me.
Um, basically said my name Sarah.
Um, I work at the all five station art centre, and which comes up if you've ever, if you've heard of us before, a few people.
So, um, for those that do know screen Art centre, we're just down the road.
Um, um, like a lot of our senses, we have a theatre and a gallery and a cafe and a dance studio.
Um, but one of the things that makes us a little bit different from other art centres is that,
um, since we began 15 years ago, we've shared our building with the homeless charity crisis.
So really, the heart of what we do is thinking about how do we make sure that people who walk through our doors that access, help with their housing,
can get involved in the arts, can help us shape our work, our building, um,
and can in some cases be the artists that, you know, we're platforming through our work.
And so that's really cool. It's what we do.
But actually, we found in the past seven years or so or and ever more, the thing that people know us for is, is storytelling.
Um, and that's why I wanted to, um, over the next Sarah, just tell you a bit more about and, um,
give you a chance to ask some questions and to come and go to see just see this getting started.
Um, yeah. So over the course of the next hour, I'll give you a bit of an overview of the storytelling methods.
Uh, we'll listen to this story. And, and I'll also give a couple of examples of how it's been used within, uh, a health care context.
And, uh, yeah. And we'll be speaking at the end of the spectrum of options and hearing from you.
And anyways, it might resonate with what you've been doing as well.
Um, platform. Um, but I'll start at the beginning.
So, um, so as I mentioned,
we're an art centre and at the heart of our work is thinking about how do we make
sure that the what we're doing is centred around the people that we're working with?
Um, but one thing we really felt like it didn't align with us and, and our values was the way that we were evaluating impacts.
We found that more often than not, we spent a lot of time collecting data that we knew, uh, it was a bit meaningless,
that it didn't actually tell us about the depth and the complexity of the work and the context.
And, you know, in some cases, it kind of almost led us to kind of, um,
over clean for the work we were doing because, you know, a funder might say, oh, you know, you need to collect 100.
You need to work with 100 people who have lived experience of homelessness, and we'd know that we'd worked with 105.
But in reality, we know that 60 of those people have touched the project and 45 have had a really meaningful experience,
but there's no way to communicate that. So we felt kind of, I guess,
frustrated and a little bit kind of sheepish about the fact that the way we were evaluating wasn't really reflecting who we were,
and we were looking for something new. And, um, we arrived at storytelling and we it was a method that was kind of initially kind
of introduced and developed with an external evaluators list back in um theory.
Um, and it sort of impact on us. It really shifted evaluation from being this, uh, down at the end.
Something has become really central to the work and how we listen and how we work with people.
And as Stephanie said, we've we've kind of gone on to train others and support other partners,
um, across a whole range of sectors, over 200 partners and using this method.
Um, so storytelling. It's a method inspired by the most significant change technique, which some of you may have heard of.
So it's a method used quite often in kind of international development and community development circles.
And UN in essence, involves collecting stories from participants, are involved in a project or refocus in different ways,
and then bringing people together to analyse those stories in a kind of participatory,
collaborative way and think about what what we can learn from it.
Um, there are six key steps that we, um, go through in the way that we use this method.
And I would say that, like there are many other methods that kind of have elements of this or, you know, their own versions of storytelling.
This is just the way we've come to use it. So, um, um, excuse me, first of all, we we recruit and we train story collectors.
So these are people that whose job it will be to sit down and have a conversation with someone one on one about their experience,
what it's meant for them.
So it's people who are able to guide that reflective conversation with people at ease and, crucially, are relatable to the storyteller.
So often that's not the person who's leading the project. It's somebody that they feel they can speak openly with about their experience.
So we train people in that approach. Um, secondly, we identify storytellers.
So for any project through focus, often we're looking at anything from 6 to 12 storytellers.
But sometimes it's been more and these are people that reflect a breadth of different perspectives on the project.
So sometimes a little fire station that's been met collecting from people who participated,
but also artists, volunteers, staff really trying to get that breadth of different perspectives.
But that breadth can look different ways for different projects depending on what you're trying to looking people.
Um, and then thirdly, um, once we have our storytellers and our story collectors,
um, one crucial thing to say is that we also brief storytellers at that stage.
It's really important people walk into this knowing what to expect, knowing they start the story where they want to start it,
that they'll have a chance to see that story before it's shared, and that they feel that, you know, we're there because we want to listen to them.
And, and, and it's on their terms. Um, so once you have all done all of that, we have a storyteller and a story collector.
They sit down and they have a conversation. And that conversation is guided by four key questions.
What's been your involvement? What changed for you?
Why does that change important and how did it happen.
And these are very much the skeleton to the conversation.
Um, but they're not necessarily sometimes the how we ask the questions, but they're they're not necessarily what we, we don't want.
It feels too much like an interview format. It's the grain we want to make sure we cover over the course, um, of a conversation.
Um, and really, what it is, is space for people to really just reflect with you about their experience and what it's meant for them.
So that's that's the story telling. Um, that conversation is, um, recorded on an audio device.
It's then transcribed and it's then we take that transcript and we assign it to a story that's kind of 1 to 2
pages long that really tries to key the key things people said about their experience and what it meant for them,
but in their own voice and words. So we want to be able to really hear someone's voice and connect with them and for it to verbatim.
So different to a case study and the depth of the conversation we had often
means that there's something really rich to be shared in the story of that form,
and we then share that back with the storytellers.
Um, once they're happy with it, they can make any changes. Um, we, um, convene what we call a discussion session.
So this is where we bring together a breadth of people, um,
with different relationships and positionality on the work to discuss the stories and think about what we can learn from them.
Um, and this is a really crucial part of that process,
because storytelling is about a plurality of voices at every stage, and it's not about one person.
So about one researcher, one evaluator saying, this is what we're seeing or extracting the learning from the data,
but it's about a collection of people sense making together and seeing what what emerges and what people learn.
And so at this stage in the process, usually, um, this is where we would think about,
um, what what threads, what themes are coming up, what surprises us in the stories.
But also we did have, um, outcomes we set or hypothesis for the project.
They haven't shaped the questions we've asked, but they might shape the discussion we have because we might say,
okay, let's think about this outcome in relation to the stories.
You know, what are we hearing? You know, what ways are coming up. What what does this tell us?
In what ways is it not coming up. And you use it in that way.
So this is the discussions are really key part of the process. Um, and then once you.
About a discussion. That kind of is the basis for reports.
So we'll kind of collate everything that was said in the conversation and write up a report.
And, and in some instances also use these stories in other ways.
We find they can be really, but they're creative in and of themselves.
But they can also be a great premise. We've used them for, uh, we've created a book with, uh, we've commissioned artists.
We collaborated on a quilt, The Storyteller.
So, yeah, that can be used in all sorts of creative ways as well.
Um. For us, the kind of benefits we find of storytelling is that first and foremost,
it really centres, um, the experiences of those that are closest to the work.
So rather than it feeling like an extractive process, it's about somebody sitting down and starting a story where they want to start it.
And, um, often we find people find that quite a like a helpful,
reflective process and moment to have and one where hopefully they can really feel listened to.
Um, secondly, we really have found that it's a meaningful process in and of itself.
So, you know, the storytelling, the discussions, uh, sessions, they help us to collaborate,
they help us to listen better, to help us to build relationships.
And so they shift evaluation from the thing at the end to being the work itself.
It is, you know, it's caught in the old fire station how we do all of those things.
And that's one of the things that's really made it kind of valuable for us.
Um, and thirdly, we find that the data that we get from it, um, it's really it holds onto complexity.
It's rooted in context. It feels human.
And, um, and then the learning we get from it can be really versatile.
So, um, yeah, these are some of the benefits we find we use in the method.
Um, but there are definitely some limitations and some considerations that have been addressed as well through through our practice of using it.
And I know those experiences. And the first big consideration is capacity.
So, um, it takes time and it takes energy and just the process of bringing together the story collections,
bringing together people to discuss the stories. The whole process can be quite time consuming and intensive.
So, um, the writing of the story say so. Um, it doesn't mean it's always that accessible to people, particularly who are often published,
who have limited capacity, which is many people in the world of waiting.
Um, and secondly, like it, it's brilliant.
Again, the depth of impact for an individual, but because of the time that goes into each story, um, it's hard to scale.
You know, it's about learning from a select number of stories and, um, thinking about,
um, how do you do justice to those rather than it being able to hear from everybody?
Um, which, yeah, is another thing to think about and what sits around that.
So you might not want to touch from others. Um, and then thirdly, you know, we find in asking people what's changed for them.
Um, very often, even though we try and think about power dynamics and who's listening to your story,
here's a story that's quite hard for people to speak openly in that context about what hasn't gone where, what hasn't changed.
Um, so it's worth noting that the stories we collect, more often than not, they focus on the positives.
Um, we never shy away from the negatives, and very often the discussions we will make actively make space for it.
But there is a likelihood the data you collect through storytelling might have a bit of a bias or might not.
You know, it might glean over some of those things.
So again, it's worth thinking about where it sits alongside other methods that might help fill in some of those limitations or gaps.
Um, so I realise I'm talking a lot and that's a lot of information, but that's kind of the overview of the method and how it works.
Um, and I just wanted to, um, I think the best way to get a sense of a storytelling is to listen to a story.
So I wanted to just, um, play your story for, um, if I could just get you to attempt that name.
And then on this side. You don't know this quite enough. Everyone. So you might have to share.
But we will also be here in the audience. So you will you'll be able to capture that.
And so this is a story that we collected, um, a few years ago now on a project called Icom.
So we brought together and it was a project that, uh, that we,
we ran this recently brought together, uh, professional photographer unagi and his clients,
and they, uh, thought about iconic photographs that they wanted to recreate, and they recreate them with, with Rory.
And and it was one of those projects. It was a real buzz.
And, um, you could feel the excitement and the energy and the shifts and people taking part in the project.
So we used storytelling to help us understand what that actually means.
The people, um, um, brought together, we collected 11 stories from.
Oh crisis clouds, volunteer staff, um artists.
And, um, how did discussion sessions focus? Um, learn from them.
And I wanted to play this story that I'm going to you now the recording this by it's not by the individual themselves.
So sometimes we do record stories and we invite the storytellers.
They would like to, to record their stories. Um, but not everybody wants to.
And one of the things with storytelling, we find is that option of anonymity is quite important.
So people can speak openly. And so this is not this is by an actor who happens to know the storyteller.
But, um, yeah, somebody who's thought about too. So I'll, uh, um, let you listen to.
Um, yeah. There. I'd love to hear any reflections people have or, um.
Yeah. What what kind of what strikes you? I listen to it.
I've been coming to crisis for about a year.
In the beginning it would just be once a week or something, because I found it really hard to be in a classroom situation.
I would feel trapped. Here. It didn't feel difficult.
I felt welcomed, but not pressured. When you go into a classroom, everyone says hello and I've never had that anywhere else.
Every day is a new day and everyone's greeted the same. It seems like it's a place that's for everyone.
It was a group project rather than them telling us what to do, which is how I thought it would be.
Everyone would be there to help out when they could. It wasn't patronising, it was everyone having their input.
We couldn't have done it all by ourselves. It's there because we did it together.
I used to hate things in groups and classrooms. It was my worst nightmare.
But I realised after doing this I actually like going to great things.
I had no idea. I think the reason I would turn off is because I thought they were relying on me,
but then by the end of it I realised I'm kind of doing it for myself as well.
I used to find it hard to talk if it was in groups that are just go silent.
But when we had a few sessions where we were just doing discussions safe,
I felt I didn't want to say anything for the whole first half, and then I'd say something.
It was like I wasn't made to feel weird about it. I've had that before.
Everyone's looking at me whispering or whatever. Yeah, they just understand that people sometimes need to take their time.
If one of us had an idea about something, everyone would listen to it and it was discussed.
That's nice. And people listen to what I say and want to know my opinions.
I've just never had that before. I feel like I'm actually seen.
Here. I actually feel like a real person. I'm not just there to do things for others or whatever.
This is something that's actually for me. I didn't have much confidence before this.
I'd always been in the background. I never used to want to be in photos.
As a kid, I always wanted to hide because I thought I'm ugly.
You know, just one of those people that refuses to be in any photos.
The first picture I was in, they wanted me to be Bobby Moore. So I was literally at the front.
I was the main character. I thought, yeah, why not?
I think when I look back on this, what am I going to look back on?
I'm going to look back on either refusing to do the project or I'm going to look back on, oh yeah, we made this cool thing.
Now I look at the bigger picture. I didn't feel under the spotlight in any of the photos.
I thought I would because I thought I would feel like all eyes were on me.
But it didn't feel like that because you playing a part.
We were making a picture for the project, not because we wanted to show one person off or whatever.
I would always hide in the past and not take part in things because it could go wrong, or I might be judged.
But in icon you're not being put on the spot because everyone's doing it as well.
I didn't feel any pressure at all or any sense of I'm being judged, which is weird because I always used to feel like I was being judged.
I saw the whole thing through to the end and that was good, knowing that I could do that.
I normally get put off.
Like if they said this is a five month project before, that would just put me off because I think I don't know if I can do it for that amount of time.
But they'd say, next week we're going to have the photo shoot. And I'd say, okay, I'll turn up to that one.
And before I knew it, I'd already done the whole second half that I was planning to do.
So now I know I can do these things just to turn up and do it rather than thinking about it.
So it's helped my confidence. I used to talk myself out of things.
I wouldn't try things because I'd be like, oh, I know it's going to go wrong.
I know this is going to happen. But I'm not saying I feel like a totally different person, but it is progress.
Everything might not be better in a day. It's going to take a while, but nothing bad has happened.
Even though I was worrying about it and that's proved to me I can just keep going because you don't know what's around the corner.
I used to think I didn't really have expressions, but then in these photographs we have to do a different expression in every picture.
And someone said to me, oh, you managed to be so different in every picture.
Like when Rory asked us to do an expression, he had to ask some people to do it differently.
But I found I could just do the expression. When I saw the photos, I thought.
I didn't know I looked like that. When you stuck in the same route, you don't really have a wide range of feelings or expressions and stuff.
You just like everything's all one way.
But then coming here, you just see more of yourself. You see different sides to yourself.
Just being able to be calm and happy, just getting on with people.
I used to think people were going to bully me wherever I go, and that's just not happened at all.
It's such a different experience now. I used to like creative things at home, but when you're at home, you just go off the task.
Coming here. It's so much easier because you're coming here for that purpose.
Everyone else is creating something too, so you just feel understood and encouraged.
Because this exhibition's here and it just seems to be art all around.
You just feel more inspired as well, and you just think like other people are creating things.
And when I see that, it makes me want to create more things as well. It's like a never ending thing.
What you can make. I have more belief in myself.
That's the main thing. It was just a positive experience.
The whole thing was positive. I don't think there was anything bad about it.
I don't have any regrets at all. I thought I was that person who was too scared and anxious and had nothing to say.
I feel like the only reason I thought that I was that person is because other people have told me that.
Now I'm really curious. What does this mean?
I can do if I've done this? I'm sure there's more sides to me that I didn't even know about.
I need to explore that because I haven't been happy before. I need to see what else is out there.
It's. And. We are looking lovely to you.
I don't know, um, anyone has any kind of reflections or, um, anything that struck you listening to that story?
I'll think about 15 minutes of being able to overcome if that's in the activity room.
Yeah, I think that, yeah, it really shines through seeing at the end it's going to take in anything else.
Yeah. I really like, um, the bit about the you're saying how they never wanted to be in photos for a film.
Not really striking. You know, the sense of like actually not only being comfortable being seen,
but it kind of came across as like they felt, you know, quite authentic in that role.
You know, the comments around didn't have to make up. They didn't have to alter the expressions and things like that.
So that was just really striking about the kind of telling tale that you should always hide.
But then conveying this comfort in, you know, not only being seen but then quite, you know, centrally positioned.
Yeah, and I think storytelling can be quite good at that kind of helping to learn.
You know, beyond those words and really getting a sense of what that meant,
what the practicalities actually meant to somebody in their life in that moment.
Yeah. There's also a nice thing about belonging in a sense of belonging, after not having felt that way.
I thought that was really nice to see how they've also included a sort of accumulation effect.
Mhm. And the kind of acceptance that that's kind of help them not the.
Want to be part of. It was just the executive power.
They are not having to change or benefit almost, but naturally because of that access to legal comfortable really.
Yeah, that's what I liked too,
that this experience gave her the confidence that she could join a group and participate in a group which she had shied away from before.
So power. Right now, she feels she could be good to have.
And other contacts who include things I really like about this is, again,
that it gives an example of what that confidence means for her specifically, like something that's being measured is confidence.
Like, what does that mean for you all in the rounds of the little.
And so it's really yeah, it feels really important to capture those details.
Yeah. Not just. It's all a question and opinions.
And at what point were the stories captured by the media?
Within a few weeks. Was it a few years just just out of curiosity, like it tends to be within a month of the project pending.
So we tend to do it towards the end of the project so people have something to reflect back and work on.
We have done it in some instances in different stages of the project,
but because of all the work that goes into it, more often than not it's at the end.
So yeah, um, I think it's often helpful, like with this project,
we were making space throughout for people to reflect on the context and how they were finding it.
And I think that led to really rich stories of people and, you know, had had given some space already to think about what it meant.
And I think that helped with the depth of reflection that people gave in the final story.
We used it in all standing. It was more of a research approach and actually to people who were still undergoing or engaging in cultural activity.
So they were in the moment, as it were, they were still engaging.
So we went evaluating individual services.
We were trying to understand more globally some of the issues and experiences from different sites.
So, um, we didn't do it. Well, as I say, people still engage with these activities through.
Yeah. And we have seen actually more and more what it has, it's been kind of brought into this research space or at least give us kind of more
people are kind of often initiating a project or a process by asking people sit down,
have those conversations rather than at the end because they live on missions.
And so it depends slightly in practice from using the tool. And the sites really liked it because we produced for each of the sites that was involved,
we collected stories that we produced a short report for them, which they were then able to act upon.
Some of the things that come out of the documents,
and some of it was really helpful for when they were go for funding and things like that to sort of support what they were doing.
Yeah. And then I remember the, um, my colleagues, I was on maternity leave at the time of the discussions about project saying.
Another thing that came out was, um, a lot of the women, you know,
some of the women that stories were collected from women of Caribbean heritage having stories edited in their voices.
So people really felt seen and like, oh, yeah, that's me talking in a way that, um, often, you know, things are kind of summarised.
It's actually a little voices silver raised. So, um, yeah.
So hearing yourself and stories can be quite recurring themes of people.
And both of those in that last line, which is being talked about how to be happy with all these people moving.
It's funny to think if you would have asked this person, why are you not participating in this program and don't like it?
Um, so it's funny to think that.
This is a story about the person finding old too, revealing old excuses not to do what he'd really want she wanted to do.
To be happy, you know, and kind of I'm relatively small.
So for some reason, I didn't really do what I really want to do.
And it's it feels powerful to me that somebody can, uh, can recognise that and themselves as well.
Yeah, I know, so it's really moving.
I agree that loss is still insecure, and I think that's another parent's resourcefulness that they can connect with people on an emotional level.
So we found particularly the discussion sessions,
especially in moments where people in the room from different walks of life, you know, often funders,
people who are maybe not connected to the work on the ground in the same way that we might be,
but it's that chance for people to really hear voices and, uh, to connect and feel moved.
And often that's the stuff that makes people really understand the value of the work and like, really kind of.
Yeah. Also want to continue funding the work often as well.
So, um, yeah, that kind of power to through stories to really connect with people, with stories I've been doing for as long as time.
So, um, yeah. Sticking with this. Okay.
Yeah. Um, I was curious about if what you said that it shouldn't seem like an interview.
Um. And what you mean by that? And I will.
I'll answer that. But then I might hold on to the questions, because at the end we're going to have space for that, I guess.
And I know that across different, you know.
Different, um, aspects of academia people are into, you know, interviews, commingling very expansive things.
So I think what I mean by that is thinking about a more kind of conventional, um, way of interlink,
somebody, which is a list of questions that you're kind of just asking and working through somebody.
And I think, um, that what we're trying to do with storytelling is,
is to shift away from someone feeling so kind of like put on the spot and interviewed and more kind
of there with somebody reflecting and thinking through their experience of what it's meant to them.
So that's why we have this like skeleton with four questions, the ground we want to cover.
And we do have a list of questions because, um, yeah,
we find that that comes sometimes with a particular power dynamic and that often and in actually lots of questions,
we found that can mean that you move on quicker on something, where do you stick with it?
And then you pause in the silence again and space and you just go a bit deeper, sometimes more noise.
Um, but yeah, I'd say that recognising there's lots of aspects, there's lots of ways to intervene,
that people do adopt, ways that might be more aligned with this direction of of storytelling.
So it's just another question.
I was wondering, how do you select the storytellers and do you have a good consensus about that, or have you thought about that?
And he sort of, I don't know, personality sort of clashes, maybe not.
Um, I guess we could collect. Did we identify the storytellers?
Uh, really often we're thinking about a breadth of perspectives.
So more often than not you can't collect say from everyone.
So it's a limited number of stories. So it's thinking about how do we what do we want to learn.
And therefore whose voice is it really important that we hear from to help us learn about that?
So it's often that way. Uh, we do. So sometimes we're hoping that it's the group itself who would like to sell the story.
But more often than not, we find people don't, um, come forward themselves and you give them an invitation.
It feels different to just being said. Would you like if anyone would, like, tell the stories?
It's tended to be three that way too.
Quite a lot of care goes into thinking about who collects the stories to manage our dynamics, and thinking about, um, who someone could speak open to.
That's what those are.
So there's a bit of matchmaking and excuse me, that's why I feel you have a pull through collective, but also reflect the breadth of experiences.
So you could do that matchmaking with other people, um, public schools.
Um, I'm going to just pose questions that we will at the end of time to read from back.
Um, because I wanted to, uh.
Just, um. Give you a sense of how it's been used beyond just how we've used that.
Your fascination with Stephanie's already given some really helpful and concepts to.
Um, so as I mentioned, we've used it with 200 partners.
Um, and that's really range from like local authorities, you know, parts of the university there,
lots of cultural partners, research institutions, lots of, uh, community action groups.
Um, um, kind of, you know, local community organisations.
Um, but people have used it to evaluate the impact of the project.
So not similar to what you did with Ikon, but we've seen people, um, yeah, using it across a range of different projects.
Um, the impact of an organisation. So thinking about what does this collecting from people you work with in different ways,
and what does this tell us about us and our mission and, and that sort of thing.
Um, we've seen that use, uh, to understand the impact of the service,
which I'm going to speak a little bit more about in a moment, but happy to use it to help them understand social describing.
Um, and also kind of, uh, a shared area focus across a network of partners.
So one example that's very light us at the moment is we're working with Brooks County Council Healthy Ageing and Health Equity grants,
which are two grants. Um, and they're we trained up there.
Uh, we've offered kind of story collective training to, um, their grantees who are collecting stories and will then bring kind of grantees together,
along with funders and other partners, to look at the stories collectively and think about what's the learning about the impacts of this grant.
So kind of yeah, see that used in that way too. Um, and increasingly as part of wider research, just like the case study exhibit, a good example of.
And yeah, one one example I wanted to just hone in on a little, um, that, uh, may connect with,
with, I guess what you're focussed on, um, is, uh, social, uh, storytelling project.
We ran on social prescribing with each. Um, and this was a pilot project that, um, we wanted to kind of understand, uh, wanted to see, like what?
How could storytelling help us understand the impact of social prescribing work that was happening across arts show and led by EGCg.
So we trained up the, um, team and kind of volunteers that they worked with.
Um, and we collected the stories of five clients who had, you know, received support for social prescribing, and to my co-workers and,
and the senior manager from age UK and ask people for questions about their involvement, change for them, why change is important and how it happens.
And then we brought together 20 people from across, um, the sector to discuss the stories and think about learning.
So that was everything from, uh, people who received their support through social prescribing to, uh,
you know, link workers to funders and commissioners and other kind of relevant partners locally as well.
Um, and there's a whole report that that kind of, um, drills into the learning, but came from that process.
Um, but the first one was, uh, it was really kind of insightful about, as you would imagine, about the experiences of social prescribing clients.
And it really reinforced that often people's, um, people accessing, uh, social prescribing, um, had experience loss of some sort.
So often that was loss of a partner loss, um, of an area, the health and wellbeing or um, yeah, loss of their comfort.
And there's a sense of loss across the stories.
And it really showed that kind of, you know, through well designed support that people were able to rediscover both purpose and um,
and being and it really brought that to light in quite a kind of visceral way.
So kind of hearing about, um, you know, somebody who was accessing a silver pride group who kind of never had the space to connect with others who,
you know, identified as LGBTQ plus was just just how powerful that was for so much sense of identity and belonging,
um, in the world and, and equally, people who lost partners, you know,
who were kind of had lost hope having somebody to work alongside them and help them re-engage with the world and,
and work through the matrix to the full show of, of just rebuilding a life.
Just what what these, um, uh, social prescribers had meant to people and, like,
work this um, and then that I also shared a lot of like on the role of social prescriber.
So, um, just holistic that role was how adaptive it was, how much it was focussed on preventative,
which is a really hard thing to be able to demonstrate impact around and and storytelling there, and good job of showing that sense of like.
Where people were and what could have happened if that help hadn't intervened to people's lives.
That was powerful in that respect. And then they also really shed light on the context that social prescribers are working in,
and how complex AI is and how much people are navigating, um, and, uh,
just how limited resources are to help people to navigate that system and,
and embody all of the skills that come with having to sit with somebody that advocate for their needs and be part of the wider network as well.
So and the very top line, but these were the things that the stories really kind of brought home.
And then what was it really interesting as well was the learning that came from that process around the method.
So, um, you know, really it reinforced that storytelling.
Uh, it worked well in a context that was about being relationship based.
It was very context specific. So everybody being very different at how they were engaging with social prescribing and it being so relevant,
the context that they were operating in to understand the impact and what it meant for them.
And that, as I mentioned, the preventative nature of social prescribing, too.
Um, it also the with some of the challenges and I've just followed a few rooms here, there's more.
But then they did also show the challenges around the method in bringing together their stakeholders.
So, um, that we'd intended to collect a story from a clinician.
Um, um, we didn't manage to do that, and we didn't manage to get any along that the discussion session either, and similarly with commissioners.
Um, so, yeah, it just that was, uh, a challenge of just this method being a means to engage people, but not not quite managing that.
And then and then thirdly, just reinforcing as well that it's time consuming and it's resource intensive and that,
you know, in an under-resourced healthcare sector that can make this a barrier for people using this method.
Um, so, yeah, there are some of the things that just to give you a flavour of how it's been used and within a kind of healthcare context.
Um, the final thing I just wanted to touch on.
I guess this is where this work has taken off. So, um, as I've mentioned, we've we've trained lots of people in storytelling,
but we've also found ourselves increasingly part of conversations around around what meaningful measurement looks like.
And, um, through often connecting people over shared frustrations with some of the more kind of conventional ways of measurement that work.
Um, thinking about, you know, how do we shift away from measurement that is prioritises the needs of funders and commissioners,
often at the expense of the participants in a project that,
you know, is not really telling us, um, anything meaningful, um, that isn't aligned with our values, that can undermine relationships.
How do we how do we move away from that and shift towards something that is about, you know,
centring the experiences of participants, um, so that they can shape the decisions we make and what we prioritise.
Um, how do we move from it being centred around improve it.
Right. Moving to improving and, and what that means.
Um, and,
and fundamental to that is how do we within the culture of organisations embed more of a culture of learning that says learning is what we do?
You know, in the same way that, you know, health and safety shouldn't be optional, learning shouldn't be optional.
We need it's it's crucial to help us to like, improve our work, to like sound, to people's voices.
Um, so yeah, how do we how do we make that shift happen?
Um, and we've been having that conversation for several years, and I certainly have been part of, of parts of it as well.
Um, and most recently we, um, put together we with the centre for Social Enterprise,
we published a playbook of meaningful measurement, which is thinking a bit about what meaningful measurement is.
It draws on our work in storytelling, and it thinks about how do what do these shapes actually mean?
How do you make this happen? If you are a founder and commissioner, Heidi can be a grantee, like where can you begin?
So that is yeah, just a sense of, I guess,
some of the undertones or what is underpinning some of the work that we're doing around storytelling as well.
Um. I'm aware of times. I'll stop there.
Um, yeah. And I just wanted to give some space to the questions that you might have.
Um, and it can be anything that's coming up. It could be about the method, could be about how it's used or if it.
It would be interesting to hear, I guess if it relates to your work in practice,
how you've maybe experience using storytelling or something similar as well.
Um, yeah. So I was just wondering if you've got examples of it being used within.
I don't think you got any where your time. For me, it feels quite nice that that sort of an.
The power is with the person telling the story, and I just wondered whether it has been used in that way.
It has. It has certainly been used to like co-production network.
Um, that's a branch of UCL. Have, um, used storytelling as a method to help them evaluate some of the impact of their work.
So very much thinking that that feels like there's the potential to bring people in to train people,
the story collectors, and bring people into that process, like a sense making.
So I know it has been used in that context.
Um, but it was one of those instances where we trained in psychology and the specifics of how that went.
But I know it feels like it does really align. And yeah, I think it has been used in that way.
And certainly for us, that's one of the appeals, is that we kind of I guess, you know, I mean, lots of different things.
We, we, we do a lot of co-creation and, and it feels important that.
Yeah, the evaluation reflects that too. So I would also say that and Caroline, who was involved in this work as well to study.
So we've co-produced uh tool to help cultural organisations.
But it's been very much from some of this work.
And for me that feels to be a participatory sort of co-production element, but also knowledge exchange as well,
because we're letting the funders and the, um, managers, etcetera, know what we're finding at the same time.
Um, so it's been really useful for both elements, but we definitely developed this tool that's going to be launched next month from some of
these discussions with not just reciprocal people who have involved in the activities,
but also people who are providing them with volunteers. There was a lot of people involved in developing this tool,
and that's because we have these storytelling discussions where we sat around and talked about a set of stories for that organisation,
and it just it's just. And how does storytelling differ from, um, narrative review or just storytelling,
or could storytelling feed into that of religious communities that might be of interest?
I mean, I I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it because I don't know a lot about narrative review.
I guess we come in at very much, first of all, in that sense of just using the valuation.
So we don't really have that same. So yeah, I don't know. Do you have thoughts on how it's similar?
I, I mean, I think I know some of my colleagues and I've done this before, but it sounds like it could be something that's used in one.
I don't think anyone else can answer my question. It just sounded like a closely linked or could be as I think.
Yeah, I don't really know enough about doing a sort of narrative analysis to make it work well.
So I've had to. I mean, I had a colleague who did an ad for her PhD narrative for views of women who've been separated from their children.
That was three, and for separation for variety of reasons.
So took stories from native women and then looked at those, but looked at them as narratives along with those.
And I just you just listening to you, it sounded okay.
There could be things that could just be connected. And I just I wasn't sure.
So yeah, I think there's overlaps, I suppose. What for me, um,
storytelling did was focussed on the most significant change and it was very much focussed on and we used as part of a realist project.
So we were interested in outcomes but not imposing outcomes.
Um, so it was really useful writing a paper on it at the moment about how we used it in a realist project.
But I think there's there are overlaps.
But for me, that meaningful change, um, and you probably analysed data very differently, um, compared to a more narrative style approach.
But yeah, I would agree with that. Um, but this definitely is synergies and kind of just centring that voice and discussion and, and.
Yeah. I will add a couple of questions.
First one, do you offer any trainings for researchers?
And the second one is do you offer or maybe you know of any trainings,
not necessarily from research, journalism or whatever field that does intelligence or storytelling.
To elicit more. Uh, not necessarily sensitive topics, but.
Um, for my research purpose, I need to interview patients to find out when they go against medical advice,
when they do things that they know is not what they are supposed to do.
And I very much like to uncover what is the actual practice,
but potentially lack the tools to conduct such an interview that encourages sharing, not what is expected, but what actually happens.
Do you know? So? So you do you provide trainings and do you know of any things that you could recommend?
Um, so we we do provide training.
So we have every three months we hold an open training workshops and three price buckets to kind of, you know, pay more based on the pay less.
Um, and our next one is actually it is it starts on Thursday.
Um, the 1 to 1, the following one will be in May.
So we have every three months that I can share with Stephanie the the information of trainings and things we do offer that we also offer,
uh, more bespoke trainings like we did with the TS project.
But, you know, like a particular project or organisation who is interested in using storytelling.
And your research is so interesting.
I, I in truth, I don't I think I think a lot of the kind of principles of storytelling are about how do you put someone at ease.
So we're collecting how do you create space if someone feels they can speak openly with you?
Um, how do you support someone to feel that what they have to say is really matters?
Um, but in terms of how to. Yeah, I can't think of anything specific around that.
How do you create a space of somebody who feels and can speak to those things of any kind?
Uh, yeah. I guess I would say there's a lot. And also thinking about positionality and yeah, in terms of how you create that speaks to you and your.
I guess the storytelling always like it's it happens in the room and it's just two hours,
but it begins so much more in terms of projects and reviews, which is something I've thought about a lot on.
It's kind of he's, you know, he's telling people, he's inviting people to tell a story,
all these things where the trust, where the existing trust lies and therefore where you think you can come in.
Yeah. That's one of the things I would think about. But yeah, training of Sports Academy, I think I'll be very happy to.
We also have a and it's kind of it doesn't have the same depth of training, but we have a toolkit as well,
which has some of the kind of overarching ideas in it might, might be of interest.
So yeah, because we've shared that space with your project is making sure people don't feel blamed for not doing what they should be involved.
Was quite, you know, that what was most significant for you in terms of how you did it could,
I suppose, be a phrasing of the wording so that you're doing it?
Not saying that this is likely to be that you're not blaming them. You.
I'm not really sure how to phrase this, so apologies in advance,
but I guess it leads on in like the more than psychological perspective, because it feels like a lot of what's been done.
So it's kind of a trust safety and then these really emotive topics.
Do you get much feedback that people actually find it to have an emotional process and like a helpful process to take part?
Yeah, I mean, we think that it can be um, it can it kind of depends what people share.
Like, um, it can be quite, uh, a hard thing and often sometimes, you know, it's not.
So people are given the space where somebody feels different and regular conversation of the floor is being given to you as a solution.
And sometimes once people start talking, it can unlock all sorts of things.
So we do think about safeguarding around it, and it can bring things up for people that are hard.
Um, but equally, more often than not, we find people.
I could find it quite cathartic and quite like, you know, hopefully feel valued, listened to, and that's positive thing.
But we've also found that starting the conversation around what's changed for you can be quite a positive thing.
So, you know, particularly in the context of our work, you know,
often people who've experienced volunteers have had to tell the same stories about themselves,
a lot to access services, and it's often not focusing on the change.
So focusing on the things that have gone wrong.
And through this, it's a challenge for somebody to retell the story from that place of like, where am I now?
And what's changed? And that can feel quite empowering and, and um, often.
Yeah. So when you give people about the story, they say, oh yeah, those things are true about me, you know.
And so that can be a really powerful thing for people.
Um, but yeah, it can also be a really hard thing.
And it's, it's rare. But we have had I can think of two instances where somebody said, I don't want to use that story just in workplaces.
I don't really want to go again.
And there is something about having that because it's very human centred in the moment, thinking like.
But what place is somebody in? And sometimes it's not the right thing to tell the story.
So that's something we try and get rid of. And people come in and and there's a lot of thought around.
The what goes around like the biscuits, the welcome, all those things that help people to kind of hopefully feel good going into.
But yeah, so, so good. So yeah, thank you for that question. Also in the two study that I've mentioned.
So it was with cultural organisations.
So we made sure that one member of that organisation knew who was going to be doing storytelling, and they were there as a sort of debriefing.
That person wanted some support going woods. And that was something that you recommended in your station.
And then the other thing was the older people who took part talked about feeling really proud of their stories,
because they might have talked to the research for two hours.
And then we condensed with the help of the of our station, using the original words the participants put into two pages,
which is quite difficult to do, but they really felt that, you know, they showed it to the family that were really I don't think we got any negatives,
but we definitely got some responses that, you know, wow, this is great.
You know, to see my words in, you know, this book like, you know,
feels that doesn't quite relate to narrative or yes, we are condensing a lot of changes and reframing it back to.
Yeah. And so we also I'm thinking back to that HC project.
There was a man on that. He told his story, um, of having lost his partner and kind of lost his way in life and being kind of at rock bottom and then,
you know, over time building things back and him sharing that through this family.
And so I was able to, like, talk to my family about what I went through.
But I feel that this and it's like a way of kind of looking at that conversation as well.
So, you know, it can be it can be really useful things on a lot of fronts.
Like, yeah, I was interested in your comment about, um, your reflections on that group.
That part of the workshop involved supporting people to develop skills in reflection, storytelling.
And I will, if I understand that correctly, like, to what degree do you feel that that,
um, did you think that was a key component in using this approach with a patient groups?
Because I guess some people are more naturally reflective than other people, that there's a skill that might be lost about that.
Yeah. That's right. I think, um, I don't think it's critical, but I think it's helpful.
And I do think often in the like teeing of the conversations, very often the way it goes,
if somebody says, I've not got anything to say, and then they begin to start telling you,
but in that kind of, you know, introducing what will happen, they begin to start talking,
and then people kind of begin to start reflecting there and, and realise they do have things to say.
So I think there is definitely something in like helping people before they arrive in that space to start to understand what they're going into,
maybe start to reflect. But but actually we find like it can be really helpful, not overprepare, because that's when you can just sit down.
And often people do think about what they want to say, and they do that.
And that takes the first 20 minutes and then they start and they relax.
And then you ask another question that was a bit deeper.
And that's when the really interesting, like reflective conversations.
That's when you just reflecting with somebody. Um, so yeah, I think enough preparation for people to feel that they.
Feel assured to go into that conversation, Booth. But I don't mean it's very vital to have had that.
I just think the main thing is you feel comfortable. Um, and yeah, not not to overprepare or worry about.
Having something you know you could sing about. I wondered if you had any examples of people coming from the crisis side of life.
He went on to trying to collect the stories. Yeah we do.
We have in our story collecting team we have, I can think of them.
I think we've trained five people and we have two still with us, I think so three.
Yeah. Yeah, three. So yeah, that has that has happened.
Um, and yeah, we're kind of a fortunate position where, you know, where crisis work would people over however long period.
But then they often have a sustained relationship with us in different ways.
So this means that you might take part in a project, but actually the person doing the story is not on a board,
you know, so they begin to and yeah, we can get them, keep them involved with each other.
We can. Yeah. And and sometimes I know that there's a project in Oxfordshire, um, Leif who work for lived experience advisory for.
And we train them as storytelling and they are people who make space appointments this and they thought it was really, really important.
But when they were collecting. So for people, that series of homelessness came from somebody who could relate to that experience,
which I don't think it always has to be the case, but certainly it can be really helpful for some people feel they can speak openly.
And so yeah, yeah, it's some instances. Yeah.
Kind of related to that question in terms of the relationship building and also your question around how does it different narrative analysis?
I was just wondering the the people who collect the stories,
are they then the same people who will then go through them and make those choices about how to take,
you know, an hour long conversation and create it, you know, into this 1 to 2 page, um, story.
Um, because I'm just wondering, did you talk about, you know, the relationship building and thinking about how you pair people up in first instance?
Um, so that people are comfortable with their, uh, story collector?
Is that is it important to have consistency then, with that's the person who's then looking at it and we'll come back to them to present,
you know, version of the story to discuss with them.
Or might you have other people who get involved, um, at that point where you're kind of creating the story and, um, of the full material?
It's a good question.
I would say for the most part, we actually it's sometimes simpler if you can just go in and collect story and books and have a good conversation,
rather than your mind wandering to like, oh, that connects.
See, this is good. That's what I found myself do. It's kind of you can almost start editing the story in your mind while you're listening.
It can interfere with the way you're listening to somebody. So often we find it can be really helpful just for your role to be collecting the stories.
And then for that transcription, do somebody else edit the story.
But sometimes with small teams, that's a luxury.
And so it ends up being the same person that that does both. And in some ways that can speed up the process.
Because you were in that conversation and you felt where the really important things were, you okay, it can be helpful.
But we yeah, we tend to where possible, you know, keep those little separate.
And we did in the two stories though mainly Deborah did the interviews and then editors edited it from the fire station.
And that was partly pragmatic because she didn't have time.
She did a couple, but it took her a long time because she was very new to it and was getting advice and feedback.
But she said actually it was quite helpful.
And what she then did was when they'd edited it, she'd read it through and think, oh, I think it's missing.
It needs a bit more of this part of the story, but we always make sure that we send it back to the person as well.
And they got the final say on what's missing. What do we need to, um, you know, is there anything that you want to take out of particularly.
And then we didn't get many occasionally the occasional bits, but most of them were happy with the way the stories had been edited.
And it's, um, it's an arts. It takes lonely people to take a while to get.
Once you've got your groove, it speeds up. But it's.
Yeah, it's not to underestimate the time that you can be taking that concept and editing it chronologically, necessarily.
You take bits that make the story flow.
It's all the person's words, but you might take a bit from the middle that goes at the beginning.
That is the bit where they start talking about how they got. Yeah. Yeah.
It's it's interesting. It does. Yeah. Yeah. We're about half past so I know.
Yeah. Unless there's any final burning question we'll find especially.
Yeah. Um, when you put the transcripts together, did you ever have a situation where the storyteller wasn't actually able to read that back?
And how did you navigate that if you, if that just happened? Um, because, uh, just limited literacy.
Yeah. We have had that where we've had to sit down and read through a story with somebody.
And um, we've also had instances where it's actually somebody find it quite hard to revisit that story because it's quite challenging story to them.
And so something we learned was it can be can always like this things always I think you've got all the time.
And then at the end of this time pressure to get all the approvals and the, the some of our learning for that is.
Maybe we needed to give more space. So people said maybe they needed to wait to enter a headspace for an asteroid.
So, um, yeah, I think we have to be patient.
I guess that's all for next week. And but thank you. I really enjoyed your questions.
Um, and yeah, it's going to be next, like you said.