1 00:00:17,070 --> 00:00:21,270 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Yes, stop! I would like to welcome you. Yes 2 00:00:21,270 --> 00:00:26,880 Welcome to the evening. Talk today. The Presidents guest. 3 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,390 And for those who haven't been to an AGS conference yet, just briefly about the format. 4 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:39,210 It's usually on the first evening. One. 5 00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:49,049 A conversation in which a personality from the public, from culture, from science is invited and with a colleague 6 00:00:49,050 --> 00:00:53,730 a colleague from the host institution who is engaged in a conversation. 7 00:00:54,510 --> 00:01:00,780 And my honorable task until this evening is actually simply to introduce the two interlocutors. 8 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:08,250 Before I do that, I would like to point out that this event is being filmed this evening. 9 00:01:13,820 --> 00:01:18,650 Good Our guest today is Natasha Kelly. 10 00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:23,240 Natasha Kelly, doctorate in communication and sociologist. 11 00:01:23,780 --> 00:01:28,070 Is an author, editor, artist, and curator. 12 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,570 Her artistic work has been performed, among others, at Carnegie Hall in New York, 13 00:01:35,140 --> 00:01:40,690 at the Goethe Theater Salvador da Bahia and at the German Historical Museum in Berlin. 14 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:50,630 Presented. In 2018, she made her debut as a filmmaker at the tenth Berlin Biennale. 15 00:01:52,070 --> 00:01:57,200 She teaches at numerous universities in Germany, Austria and the USA. 16 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,210 And she is currently a visiting professor at the University of Arts in Berlin. 17 00:02:04,310 --> 00:02:07,460 Her numerous publications include the bestseller. 18 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:16,010 racism. Structural problems need structural solutions and the Longseller Schwatz German feminine. 19 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:20,690 Why feminism must demand more than gender equality. 20 00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:30,180 Kelly is an avowed Afrofuturist and is committed to making black German perspectives visible in art, 21 00:02:30,390 --> 00:02:35,250 Science and society one. That deserves a round of applause for now. 22 00:02:44,730 --> 00:02:50,550 And tonight will be led by Kerstin Griese, my colleague here from Oxford. 23 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:58,560 Her research interests lie in the area of 20th and 21st century German and comparative literature. 24 00:02:59,070 --> 00:03:05,940 And she focuses on the Holocaust, literature, Jewish writing, black and post-colonial literature. 25 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,800 And she also works in the field of circumcision, literature and science. 26 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:24,060 Her book In ing the Past the Holocaust Novel of the First Generation was published in 2014 and she has also published numerous articles. 27 00:03:24,870 --> 00:03:34,920 Published on topics related to recent contemporary Jewish literature, Post Memory, Kafka, Günter Grass and Sebald. 28 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:46,320 She is currently working on completing Following Kafka, a monograph on intertextual Kafka supported by the teacher Young Trust, 29 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:54,960 Edits in literature and theory after the Holocaust, post-colonialism and post-humanism. 30 00:03:56,310 --> 00:04:04,230 In parallel, she is working on a book project about black literature and quantum physics and writes with Jeanette Holly. 31 00:04:05,290 --> 00:04:09,280 The Companion to Contemporary Black was released. 32 00:04:10,370 --> 00:04:20,490 Please also applause for Kerstin. And 33 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,670 And before the conversation starts, maybe just briefly. 34 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:30,120 I hope you all received this wristband. There is also a text by Natasha Kelly in the wristband. 35 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:37,740 And the wristband leads through the exhibition, which they can view tomorrow at The In Telorien Institution. 36 00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:44,220 Thank you Bernhard. Natascha, I'm so glad you're with us. 37 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:53,100 We're about to talk about your book Black German Female Why Feminism Must Demand More Than Gender Equality 38 00:04:53,110 --> 00:04:56,730 which was published by Piper Verlag in 2023. 39 00:04:57,270 --> 00:05:03,300 And you will also read two passages from it to us. In addition, as Bernhard has just mentioned, 40 00:05:03,630 --> 00:05:12,600 You can find three of the first three chapters of the book in your own translation in this exhibition catalog, which we have all just received. 41 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:17,700 I may therefore be brief in my introduction. Just so much for an overview. 42 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Black female comes from observing how you put it, Natascha, 43 00:05:23,430 --> 00:05:31,740 that white feminism far too often tends to understand feminism one-sidedly and oppression singularly. 44 00:05:32,460 --> 00:05:35,880 This prevents feminism that is open to everyone. 45 00:05:36,330 --> 00:05:44,160 Because understood as an unmarked norm, white feminism often ignores the fact that being a woman is determined by many factors. 46 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:55,169 Race class, religion, alterability, body, norms, sexual orientation among others the reviews of your book, 47 00:05:55,170 --> 00:06:00,840 who speak of uncomfortable truths and of your words as a requirement 48 00:06:01,410 --> 00:06:09,600 A clear demand for feminists to take care of our blind spots is therefore absolutely right. 49 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:16,410 However, Schwarz German female provides much more than just a critical 50 00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:21,090 Intervention in feminist theory or in current debates about racism. 51 00:06:21,930 --> 00:06:29,400 In fact, it is also a compendium on the history and stories of black women in Germany since the 17th century 52 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:34,890 intertwined with insertions on black representatives of feminist practice 53 00:06:34,890 --> 00:06:41,100 worldwide and these in turn are also interwoven with elements of your own biography, 54 00:06:41,250 --> 00:06:46,770 So that from everything together in resistance I now to a one-sidedly understood 55 00:06:47,220 --> 00:06:53,310 Feminism results in a polyphonic and elastic web of texts. 56 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,940 I would like to call this almost a book as a community and how it works in practice now 57 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:05,910 This is shown very well in a first chapter, from which you will be happy to read a bit to us right away. 58 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:10,500 Thank you. That was a super nice summary. As a matter of fact 59 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:17,940 Thank you so much This is actually my first time reading outside of Germany. 60 00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:25,410 Well, it's actually premiering and I'm really excited to share my favorite chapter with you. 61 00:07:25,410 --> 00:07:30,030 In fact, so is my grandma's garden. 62 00:07:31,430 --> 00:07:38,600 I often did not know how to name my experience with power and inequality, let alone the matrix of racism, 63 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:44,330 To recognize capitalism and the euro patriarchy that surrounded me like a web. 64 00:07:45,470 --> 00:07:48,950 For most people, these things are only occasionally noticeable. 65 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:56,450 For me, however, they were connected together like the elastic, often invisible silk threads of a spider web. 66 00:07:57,230 --> 00:08:05,270 No matter where I went, I had strings of spiders on my face that wouldn't let me forget that I was in continuity. 67 00:08:05,510 --> 00:08:13,940 Of enslavement and colonization, overseas labor migration and women's work, and the confrontation with 68 00:08:13,940 --> 00:08:19,190 white supremacy and the associated privileges and ideals of beauty. 69 00:08:20,090 --> 00:08:24,410 It wasn't always easy for me to enjoy being a child. 70 00:08:25,460 --> 00:08:30,200 I was light years away from the colorful feminist flower garden, 71 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:41,510 Which the black American feminist Alles Walker described in 1974 in her essay Looking for the Gardens of Our Mothers. 72 00:08:42,350 --> 00:08:50,930 Her memories of her mother, an enslaved woman who worked in the cotton fields during the day and came home at night 73 00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:56,480 In order to create their own flower garden, they made them forget their poverty. 74 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:09,060 Everything, Walker everything. Walker was the first black American to win in 1983 for her novel The Color Purple, 75 00:09:09,420 --> 00:09:14,760 In which she addressed facets of her queer sexuality, the Pulitzer Prize. 76 00:09:15,510 --> 00:09:18,630 In the same year, she coined the concept of womanism. 77 00:09:18,930 --> 00:09:24,990 According to her own statements, womanism relates to feminism as purple relates to lavender. 78 00:09:25,710 --> 00:09:30,360 In doing so, she shows that black feminism is not a uniform field, 79 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:36,690 which only focuses on the fight against black men and places its feminist focus on issues 80 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:48,270 Which are equally important for blacks, women and men, family, community, and survival strategies that should benefit everyone. 81 00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:53,760 In 1982, she also coined the term colorism 82 00:09:54,090 --> 00:10:02,460 which she defines as adverse or preferential treatment for black people based solely on their skin tone. 83 00:10:04,340 --> 00:10:09,590 My grandma's garden in the working-class district of London was of great importance to me. 84 00:10:10,340 --> 00:10:13,670 My sisters and I spent a lot of time there as kids. 85 00:10:14,330 --> 00:10:16,820 We played catch and competed. 86 00:10:17,570 --> 00:10:27,410 As the youngest and smallest girl, I stumbled across my own feet one day during an imagined world record run and fell while trying to 87 00:10:27,410 --> 00:10:31,430 Catch up with my older sisters on the concrete footpath. 88 00:10:32,420 --> 00:10:36,470 Grandma looked up from the bean vines and watched 89 00:10:36,830 --> 00:10:43,190 How I stood up unharmed and knocked myself off before she continued her gardening work in peace. 90 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,320 She always had an eye on us, was caring, but let us do it. 91 00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:55,340 With every run, the ambition grew stronger. To be faster than my sisters someday. 92 00:10:55,730 --> 00:11:01,070 Until I finally caught up with them and beat them by the length of a toe. 93 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:10,670 After that, the races were over. It was replaced by a seemingly insurmountable dispute, in which I was accused of 94 00:11:10,970 --> 00:11:15,620 I would have crossed the line at the start and started too early anyway. 95 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:21,050 So the race didn't count and I was disqualified. 96 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:28,100 Of course, my oldest sister was a competition opponent, line and referee at the same time. 97 00:11:28,970 --> 00:11:35,420 Since we lived here behind the fence in Germany, we only spent the summer holidays with our grandmother. 98 00:11:35,930 --> 00:11:41,000 When the weather was nice, we played in the garden and fought for a long time about my unsuccessful start. 99 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,610 During the run, in the rain, we played in the bedroom that we shared with each other. 100 00:11:47,660 --> 00:11:54,110 We had just returned from shopping one summer day when it started to rain heavily. 101 00:11:54,680 --> 00:12:00,200 I particularly remember the rain because we had given the children new shoes. 102 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:07,670 Mine were black, covered in shiny lacquer and fitted with a large golden buckle. 103 00:12:08,450 --> 00:12:12,710 I was so in love with her that I didn't pay attention to my sisters' new shoes. 104 00:12:13,340 --> 00:12:18,770 I would have loved to keep mine on at the store and wear it on the way home. 105 00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:26,390 Grandma convinced me to take them off by assuring me that the paint would come off from the rain. 106 00:12:26,990 --> 00:12:34,550 So I watched with childlike rapture as the saleswoman wrapped the shoes in paper and put them back in the box. 107 00:12:35,390 --> 00:12:41,660 When I got home, I couldn't wait to put them on, but shoes were forbidden in the house. 108 00:12:42,140 --> 00:12:49,910 So I placed them far enough away from the dripping umbrella, the cloakroom and stared at them for hours, believing 109 00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:59,150 I could mirror myself in it. To lure myself away from it, my sister took the empty boxes and said that we could make crafts with them. 110 00:12:59,690 --> 00:13:05,630 We didn't own a lot of toys as children, but there was still no lack of creativity. 111 00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:14,510 So we took scissors, glue and pens and turned the four showcases into a dollhouse in hours of fine work. 112 00:13:14,990 --> 00:13:24,260 Each box formed a different room, living room, kitchen, bedroom and bathroom, which we furnished accordingly with paper furniture. 113 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:31,260 The shoes were quickly forgotten. I felt safe with my sisters. 114 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:38,970 They were my best friends. I didn't have any other girlfriends in my childhood and I didn't need them. 115 00:13:39,510 --> 00:13:44,880 We shared our growth lessons and concerns, learned from and with each other. 116 00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:50,520 Look out for each other. When, as is so often the case, no adult was present. 117 00:13:51,150 --> 00:13:58,800 And so I learned very early on the meaning of Sisterhood, which accompanied me throughout my life. 118 00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:10,870 Sisterhood Sisterhood is the deep and lasting socio-political bond between black women who do not have to belong to family first. 119 00:14:11,530 --> 00:14:15,250 In good times, happiness is shared unconditionally. 120 00:14:15,730 --> 00:14:20,860 When times are tough, we find emotional support and comfort in sisterhood. 121 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:22,269 It allows us 122 00:14:22,270 --> 00:14:30,370 to remain able to act beyond discriminatory structures and to recognize the best in us through the eyes of our sisters. 123 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:37,810 In this sense, sisterhood is a political space in which black women gain more visibility. 124 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:43,480 This requires honesty, loyalty, and trust. 125 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:52,890 When I visited my grandmother again a long time later as a teenager, I realized how small her garden actually was. 126 00:14:53,520 --> 00:15:01,770 After a few steps, I had already reached the other end of the fort, which was bordered by the wall to the neighboring property. 127 00:15:02,460 --> 00:15:10,230 It was just as crumbly as it was when we had laboriously drilled a hole in it with our little fingers and thin sticks. 128 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:18,180 I bent down to look through. The neighboring garden was now overgrown and no longer as magnificent as it used to be. 129 00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:23,370 I leaned in and reminisced about my early childhood. 130 00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:27,990 When my sisters and I were still able to enjoy our sisterhood. 131 00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:32,910 With the move to Germany, we are soon breaking up. 132 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:40,710 The foreign country, adolescence and growing up have scattered us in all four directions. 133 00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:45,000 I think I am the furthest away from everything. 134 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:51,120 While my sisters are less political, I have chosen the path of resistance. 135 00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:59,730 Or rather, he chose me. Because an activist as well as a feminist is not a classic career aspiration. 136 00:16:00,030 --> 00:16:05,190 Just as little girls dream of becoming a firefighter or an astronaut. 137 00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:14,550 Rather, my educational path and my ever deepening political awareness had automatically led me into activism. 138 00:16:15,210 --> 00:16:19,770 But as an African proverb says, knowledge is like a garden. 139 00:16:20,190 --> 00:16:23,820 And if it is not cared for, it cannot be harvested there. 140 00:16:24,420 --> 00:16:30,659 So I set out to get a German school leaving certificate and thus the big, 141 00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:34,800 To order a magnificently blooming garden of my imagination. 142 00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:45,000 If it grew just as beautifully as my grandma's garden, it would enrich the world for me and other people. 143 00:16:57,610 --> 00:17:05,140 Natascha, you introduce the core question of Sisterhood in this chapter and is it only 144 00:17:05,170 --> 00:17:10,000 In a concrete sense, through the biological ties to your sisters? 145 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:15,060 What does this term mean to you in a wider sense now? 146 00:17:15,130 --> 00:17:18,400 Yes, then for this project, but also for your thinking in general? 147 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:28,030 Um, I think I'm yikes that I'm without a sisterhood, since I'm the youngest of her, 148 00:17:28,570 --> 00:17:35,260 Sisterhood was always part of my life and so was feminism. 149 00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:45,550 So I was really born into a feminist household, into a, um, a community in a sisterhood. 150 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,700 Especially as the youngest of four, I can't even imagine not having any sisters. 151 00:17:52,090 --> 00:17:58,360 And that idea among many other things, I think, things 152 00:17:58,690 --> 00:18:05,260 You simply have to read that for yourself, for example what community or my community is like. 153 00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:08,830 I was thrown in there too. 154 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:14,500 It's not something I needed to learn in any way. 155 00:18:14,590 --> 00:18:19,000 It was given. It was already a basic requirement. 156 00:18:20,190 --> 00:18:26,249 At birth. That was already there, it was already there. And that was also how it was translated politically. 157 00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:30,030 Very easy for me. Which is a matter of course for me. 158 00:18:30,420 --> 00:18:38,489 The fact that feminism can only succeed if all women are doing well and men by the way 159 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:42,600 Also because patriarchy is not good for men either. 160 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,410 So from that point on. Yes, yes. 161 00:18:49,710 --> 00:18:56,400 And it is also interesting how the competition among sisters in the Sisterhood is completely different than it is right now. 162 00:18:56,700 --> 00:19:02,880 This restrictive competitive spirit, which can sometimes shape white feminism. 163 00:19:03,330 --> 00:19:08,760 And there is a wonderful saying we want all you need to make. 164 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:18,570 I think it's more like that attitude that if one sister makes it, then the next one will too, because me. 165 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:24,870 Well, I also see that as my task, precisely because I belong to a generation of black Germans 166 00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:33,120 Which now, for example, I don't know whether you know Mayaj or Katharina and Oje, wrote the color confess. 167 00:19:33,570 --> 00:19:40,890 These were the generations that came before me. And they've paved the way for me to even sit here today. 168 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:49,140 And I see it as my task to continue along the path so that the generations that come after me 169 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:55,500 We can go much further, go much further than what we have been able to do now. 170 00:19:55,500 --> 00:20:04,500 And that was a matter of course for me. So not something that had to think twice or strategically learn to do for me to do, but something 171 00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:11,010 What is a matter of course for me to pass this on and also to pass it on and also to always watch 172 00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:17,190 Who was there before me, because without the two named Katharina, 173 00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:23,310 who is also really a good friend of mine today, with someone I was unfortunately never able to get to know. 174 00:20:23,730 --> 00:20:25,170 I wouldn't be here without them. 175 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:35,880 And that is important for me to emphasize, I know that and I always pass this on to everyone else who receives one by one. 176 00:20:36,810 --> 00:20:44,820 So you're really using a one-sided feminism here, specifically in the sense of everything where no comprehensive, 177 00:20:44,820 --> 00:20:49,950 Where you face him, but who also focuses on topics that benefit everyone. 178 00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:55,080 I think criticism wants, as you say, is one thing and that is also justified criticism 179 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,080 Because criticism is as old as black feminism itself. 180 00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:07,770 Almost 200 years old, I'd say. And the other thing is to show that there were black women. 181 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:16,740 Um So the oldest person who made it into this book is Juliana Rusina from the 17th century. 182 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:24,749 And which of you actually only knows their cousin? I've heard something about Anton Wilhelm Amu, just by show of hands. 183 00:21:24,750 --> 00:21:33,360 Sergei for a minute. And Juliana. 184 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:43,700 Rosina. That would be the case if we go back historically, it is usually the men we remember and think of. 185 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:49,729 And it's great that so many men were upstairs at Amon and we're here in Great Britain in Germany. 186 00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:52,220 Too few hands. What would I really tell you 187 00:21:52,730 --> 00:22:03,559 But Juliana Hosiner lived on the same farm as Amos in Wolfenbüttel and was married to Rudolph Augustus, 188 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:12,530 An enslaved African from Leipzig, who was bought for 50 thalers on the slave market in Leipzig, as the script says. 189 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:23,479 And then he also came to Wolfenbüttel, and they lived there together for 17 years as a married couple, which was a rarity in the 17th century 190 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:31,250 that they were allowed to marry at all and that it was at the end of the 17th century and the beginning of the 18th century 191 00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:39,020 Around 1704 five, we do not know for sure, other Wilhelm Ammon came to this court as a child. 192 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:48,860 And my hypothesis The passage until you all prove me wrong is that Amos was actually given in her womb 193 00:22:48,860 --> 00:22:54,770 that she and Rudolph could actually also have been his foster parents at the farm. 194 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,660 So the probability is very high. So appeal to all women historians. 195 00:22:59,930 --> 00:23:06,799 Search. Search! So? I'm not a historian, but it is until proven otherwise. 196 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,890 And she is one for me, one of the one. 197 00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:14,180 This figure, where I find, is the oldest that has made it in here. 198 00:23:14,450 --> 00:23:21,770 Because in addition to all criticism, I also want to open up rooms and show them, as I said, that we haven't just been here since yesterday 199 00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:30,440 We in the sense of black German women, but we have always been here and we helped build this country just like everyone else. 200 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:40,519 So this country not this but this one too though. About Germany, because you always briefly forget where I am because I speak German here. 201 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:48,469 But then it gets very very very hot, I don't even want to go into politics 202 00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:55,040 But I always get into this right-wing populist maelstrom, where I then kind of think that's actually the case. 203 00:23:58,010 --> 00:24:02,629 These half-truths, the ones that are being taught right now, are really bad 204 00:24:02,630 --> 00:24:08,000 Because it is verifiable and that is what I just wanted to do with this book. 205 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:18,200 So not just criticism on the one hand and definitely not on White Women bashing or anything, but it's really about showing 206 00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:26,630 If you understand feminism holistically, understand intersectionally, then so many other women were black women 207 00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:37,940 On which I focus, but also from all other groups, the so important work with regard to feminism or human rights in general, 208 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:45,110 Equality and equality that never have a word and especially in a German context. 209 00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:56,240 And I'll show them here. And that, for me, was also this empowering, the added value that this book had as it is absolutely not just criticism. 210 00:24:56,690 --> 00:25:05,240 Well, you can tell that very clearly. And this intersectional approach and the interconnectedness of your thinking 211 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,559 That it also so beautifully illustrates a picture of the garden in this chapter, 212 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,970 The fact that you drive in here is also my favorite chapter by the way and the picture of the garden. 213 00:25:14,540 --> 00:25:18,139 Maybe we can say a bit more about that, because you have that too. 214 00:25:18,140 --> 00:25:23,390 At first glance, a word yes garden is the frame in the background. 215 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:28,550 But that the garden of your imagination goes so far beyond that. 216 00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:33,260 Yes, yes and what is the name of a garden. 217 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:39,649 It has a bit of this picture of circulation, it has to be sown 218 00:25:39,650 --> 00:25:43,340 Then comes the next generation and irrigates and the next generation 219 00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:49,640 comes and plows and the next generation comes and harvests for us. 220 00:25:49,910 --> 00:25:54,590 And that's how I see it a bit, that this description actually with Katharina May, 221 00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:58,340 With the work I'm doing now, that everyone's coming after me 222 00:25:58,340 --> 00:26:08,360 who can also rely on my work, the work from my generation, which is still very thin, especially in Academia. 223 00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:09,799 But I can tell you 224 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:17,780 Because I've actually just founded a network of 50 doctoral black Germans in Black Studies right now. 225 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,980 And the next generations look different and I'm really happy about that. 226 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:30,410 Well then. You can't stop demographic change and it doesn't matter how they want to remigrate. 227 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,670 Very good, then. Yes, but that deserves a round of applause. 228 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,190 It's just like the shoe boxes in your chapter now. 229 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,769 A carton is a carton. But give me four boxes and then I can get an idea and get out of it. 230 00:26:46,770 --> 00:26:52,620 Quite an entire building. Yes, that's right. Yes, yes, in fact I'm going to add one more thing. 231 00:26:52,620 --> 00:26:58,889 There's this one. Because I also do theatre. Yes, and this exact chapter is being adapted for a play. 232 00:26:58,890 --> 00:27:06,840 Or have I already adapted for a play at the Staatstheater in Nuremberg, which premieres on the third, tenth and is it. 233 00:27:08,190 --> 00:27:14,040 It's directed by Jessica Weisskirchen and I've rewritten this one more time. 234 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:20,910 But that was exactly the idea. We've talked. So that's in someone's what were in Nuremberg yesterday? 235 00:27:21,270 --> 00:27:28,200 Be sure to take a look at the premiere. Yes, and there was the picture of the garden. 236 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:35,759 That ties in with the past, now also the past, the one that has suffered a terrible score as a result of enslavement. 237 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,909 The one in whose continuity we still live now and who may only be through the gardens 238 00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:46,440 The world of imagination can also be made tolerable somewhere. 239 00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:57,280 But on the other hand, it also ties in with the future, and its chapter ends in this potentiality, in this, this form of possibility. 240 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:05,340 If my garden only begins to flourish as beautifully words and that then leads to your contribution, 241 00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:11,790 Then I will be on stage on this track, where you will continue to cultivate your garden. 242 00:28:11,910 --> 00:28:18,750 And that brings us to the second passage, to the second chapter, from which you will read something to us right away. 243 00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:26,819 This is found towards the end of the book and presents itself in a certain way as a counterpart to the first reading that we have just heard. 244 00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:34,350 The path that led you away from your grandmother to Germany seems to result in an arrival here 245 00:28:34,350 --> 00:28:41,340 But in an arrival that at the same time opens up in new directions and makes new connections. 246 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,639 Should I go? Yeah, well, that's a bit shorter, I think. 247 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,780 The whole chapter is maybe a bit long, as I became a passport German. 248 00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:58,370 In the course of German history, there have been many foreign names for black people, 249 00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:04,910 who expressed that we did not belong to Germany and were also not seen as Germans. 250 00:29:06,170 --> 00:29:12,620 When justified criticism of the term foreign women arose in the mid-1990s, 251 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:19,190 Black people and people of color were stylized as immigrants. 252 00:29:20,150 --> 00:29:29,060 Strictly speaking, I did not see myself as such, as my walk through the military base gate was not synonymous with a movement of migration, 253 00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:33,050 because Germany did not see itself as a country of immigration. 254 00:29:33,380 --> 00:29:40,130 This foreign name also quickly came under criticism and we became people with an immigrant background. 255 00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:49,580 In the course of political resistance, this background was identified as the focus of migration, 256 00:29:49,580 --> 00:29:55,700 because our main characteristics skin and/or hair color are always visible. 257 00:29:56,810 --> 00:30:00,680 Today, politics and media talk about stories of migration. 258 00:30:01,490 --> 00:30:05,840 But I can relate to that too. It's hard for me to get used to. 259 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,470 Because it wasn't my story, it was my mother's. 260 00:30:09,740 --> 00:30:15,440 And at some point she stopped migrating and settled down with us children. 261 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,100 From that point on, we started to become German. 262 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:25,670 Not through birth or lineage, but through socialization. 263 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:33,660 As a child, I was already migrated and moved away from Great Britain. 264 00:30:34,410 --> 00:30:40,290 That changed me too. That didn't change the fact that I was born in London either. 265 00:30:41,130 --> 00:30:45,840 Back then, we lived involuntarily in a parallel society in east London. 266 00:30:45,870 --> 00:30:52,470 Next door to other Caribbean immigrants and had very little to do with white British women. 267 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:59,340 It wasn't until I went to school in Germany that I really became aware of my British nationality. 268 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:07,500 My school friend found it exciting that I had a passport with a crown instead of an eagle on the front. 269 00:31:07,980 --> 00:31:15,960 And as a black girl, in her imagination I came to England better than Germany anyway. 270 00:31:17,420 --> 00:31:21,950 When I turned 18, a British passport took on a different meaning. 271 00:31:22,790 --> 00:31:29,450 At that time, EuAn members were not allowed to participate in local elections or in federal elections in the Bundestag. 272 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:36,110 I was happy that I didn't have to vote and always hid behind my lack of voting rights. 273 00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:41,090 In any case, there was no party that could have represented my concerns as a black woman. 274 00:31:42,270 --> 00:31:49,710 At the same time, I was relieved that I didn't have to deal with dubious party programs. 275 00:31:50,460 --> 00:31:55,920 I was not represented by German politics. Not from the British either. 276 00:31:56,460 --> 00:32:00,780 I would have had the right to vote there even though I lived in Germany. 277 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:05,820 Yet I did not vote there either due to a lack of representation. 278 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:14,040 At that time, however, I did not come up with the idea of handing over my British passport and applying for a German passport. 279 00:32:14,550 --> 00:32:22,380 My mother and grandmother had fought for British nationality for too long when they arrived in England. 280 00:32:23,490 --> 00:32:30,840 However, the longer I lived in Germany, the less I identified myself with my British country of birth. 281 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:38,070 With every year that Germany that I spent in Germany, I became a bit German. 282 00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:43,950 At some point, especially abroad, I was no longer able to hide my German socialization. 283 00:32:44,580 --> 00:32:48,720 I'm now moving like a German, acting like a German. 284 00:32:49,020 --> 00:32:53,550 I dress like a German. But what is German? 285 00:32:55,150 --> 00:33:00,520 It's much easier for me to explain what black is and what story is connected with it 286 00:33:00,790 --> 00:33:04,720 than to explain what being German means to me. 287 00:33:06,850 --> 00:33:16,450 In my search for an answer to this question of who or what is German, Germany became more important to me than ever before. 288 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:24,280 In addition, there were the events surrounding George Floyd, which is why I dared to make a second attempt at German politics. 289 00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:32,110 I jumped a bit, but it'll be clear when you read when I tried this for the first time. 290 00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:42,640 I think it's a mistake. Both times. Because party politics were at least as grueling as my volunteer 291 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,980 independent work on the state advisory board and does not make my life more pleasant. 292 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:58,640 Yet had. For a short time, I had the urge to become a politician and thus change the power structures of society. 293 00:34:00,220 --> 00:34:11,350 So on. To change. At that point, I didn't know that as a politician I would have less influence on change than as an activist. 294 00:34:12,250 --> 00:34:19,540 In order to be able to stand for election in a federal party, I had to be a German citizen. 295 00:34:20,380 --> 00:34:31,060 This requirement and Brexit were two good reasons to naturalize and become a passport German. 296 00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:34,840 I didn't have to take an integration course. 297 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,930 I had finally completed my schooling and education as well as my studies and doctorate in Germany. 298 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,690 I had no criminal record and I was also able to prove my own income. 299 00:34:47,470 --> 00:34:51,520 I therefore met all criteria to become naturalized. 300 00:34:51,910 --> 00:34:57,190 However, it took another whole year before my naturalization was approved. 301 00:34:57,670 --> 00:35:01,090 The reason My Jamaican roots. 302 00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:11,200 Not only in practice, but also in theory, I was prevented from identifying myself as Black and German. 303 00:35:12,930 --> 00:35:20,970 Since both my parents are native Jamaicans, I automatically received American nationality and had 304 00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:30,870 Without knowing it, dual citizenship, British and American citizenship a third. 305 00:35:31,140 --> 00:35:37,530 I was therefore only allowed to accept the German if I decided against one of the other two. 306 00:35:40,270 --> 00:35:46,000 It's not an easy choice. I mean I had to weigh up my options. 307 00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:53,020 On the one hand, Britain had decided against Europe with Brexit. 308 00:35:53,410 --> 00:35:57,880 But I am European and not African. 309 00:35:58,210 --> 00:36:05,620 And if Europe imagines itself white and lets my siblings drown at its external borders? 310 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:13,840 A German passport not only allowed me to become German on paper, but also to remain European. 311 00:36:15,130 --> 00:36:20,470 My British passport, on the other hand, is just a relic of my past 312 00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:25,989 A keepsake that protects my childhood memories from fading 313 00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:30,820 And after Brexit, it's the only thing that's still British about me. 314 00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:39,010 At the same time, my British passport is also an important part of my identity that connects me to my family. 315 00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:43,030 And I didn't want to give that up easily. 316 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,970 In addition, there was the fear that racism in Germany would reach a point again 317 00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:53,260 Where it wouldn't be possible for black people to live here. 318 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:59,500 A British passport would give me an escape option in the event of a crisis. 319 00:37:00,620 --> 00:37:07,550 My roots, however, will always be Jamaican, no matter how many passports I have. 320 00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:15,560 Strictly speaking, under American law, I was a Jamaican even without a Jamaican passport. 321 00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:21,320 That wouldn't change the neutralization I had to sign. 322 00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:27,770 So I decided to keep my British passport and add the German one. 323 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,830 I can only accept a Jamaican passport if I relinquish one of them. 324 00:37:34,610 --> 00:37:43,460 That makes me officially a multi-state. A new term that I can add to my glossary of foreign names. 325 00:37:55,460 --> 00:38:01,850 In your book, we encounter this process of being migrating, this racist, 326 00:38:01,850 --> 00:38:10,550 The position of a migrant woman being arrested as a child in Great Britain, continuing in Germany and now in particular again since Brexit. 327 00:38:12,140 --> 00:38:21,620 Such foreign provisions operate normative privative with terms such as you stop them here, such as Pass German Neutralization more starter. 328 00:38:22,460 --> 00:38:29,030 How do you feel about your location there? What What does to be German or to be German mean to you? 329 00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:37,280 That is having so much time. It's a super exciting question about what exactly being German means. 330 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,610 Because I'm still looking for it today. 331 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,200 So for me, it is primarily a cultural identity. 332 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,840 And when I say that, does everybody think that way huh? 333 00:38:48,260 --> 00:38:54,530 So I, I, I defend myself against a national or even nationalistic idea of German 334 00:38:55,010 --> 00:39:01,160 But it's a cultural one that I really always notice when I'm abroad. 335 00:39:01,460 --> 00:39:06,620 So when I was in the USA I was in the USA yes, I taught a lot in the USA 336 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:14,960 A part of my family lives there and when I'm there in the black communities, I'm the German, not the black one. 337 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,600 Well and there. These were the moments that opened my eyes 338 00:39:20,930 --> 00:39:28,190 That I was influenced by German, that I have a certain, um, structured way of thinking. 339 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:35,270 I find it very German that I have such a well, I wouldn't say such punctuality, I'm still working on it. 340 00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:40,760 But a certain one, that urge to order, well, that's one of them. 341 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,610 This is something that is typically German for me, which is reflected in my, my school, my school years, 342 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:56,450 As a result of my studies, I have a certain reluctance that is immediately noticeable when I am in black communities. 343 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:00,920 And in the beginning, we always thought you were too cool to count with us. 344 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,660 And that was actually only the German, who now kind of like that, you know, we're going to laugh in the basement. 345 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:17,780 So a bit of the direction like that and for me that is a culture, a culture that is also diverse in mine. 346 00:40:17,780 --> 00:40:27,620 I have to say the same about that. I think we need to move away from the idea that the German is white and blond and blue-eyed. 347 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,120 Which is a colonial idea, by the way, not just about National Socialism, 348 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,009 In other words, it reached its deadly low point in National Socialism. 349 00:40:37,010 --> 00:40:44,060 But this idea, this idea that Germans just like that and German blood And what color should that be? 350 00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:50,990 So it is. I also master dumplings with sauce. Well, I couldn't have grown my child with sauce at all. 351 00:40:51,890 --> 00:41:00,050 Others are with noodles or something, but for us it was dumplings with sauce and chicken fricassee and then always mixed with plantins and yes 352 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,790 So this is the fusion that then occurs, for example. 353 00:41:04,850 --> 00:41:13,640 Um, I don't know. Well I it is always has such a funny aftertaste to say I'm proud to be German 354 00:41:14,210 --> 00:41:20,270 But I've rejected being German for most of my life, especially during adolescence. 355 00:41:20,270 --> 00:41:23,630 I hated it. I wanted to be anything but German. 356 00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:26,990 Because the British, the British, blacks over all but Germans. 357 00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:34,940 And at some point and there I am endlessly grateful to this generation exactly once 358 00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:39,620 Which opened my eyes to the fact that these two things also go together. 359 00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:46,670 Yes, and that being German is an extremely important part of my identity today. 360 00:41:47,330 --> 00:41:51,860 I think German, I dream German. I am so that's mine. 361 00:41:52,640 --> 00:42:01,459 I feel much more comfortable speaking German. Now, as if I speak English, I always feel like I'm the 5-year-old child 362 00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:06,290 Who left England back then and always think do you understand me when I speak English now? 363 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:14,690 I think everyone is kind of like that, yes, it is such psychological thinking, where I then do my work, my academic work, 364 00:42:14,690 --> 00:42:21,559 Everything in German is much easier for me than explaining some advanced theories in English. 365 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:27,410 Then I'm always so okay, but do you understand that now? And because I feel it, I feel it differently. 366 00:42:27,950 --> 00:42:30,649 Let's say yes, it's already being German, 367 00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:38,180 But even very embedded in very, I say cumulative and fluid, your location somewhere is. 368 00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:42,709 And then you also bring to other parts of the book do you just bring a 369 00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:48,440 spiritual homeland then also pure and links Germany with Great Britain, 370 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,500 with the USA, but then also with Ghana, for example. 371 00:42:52,010 --> 00:42:58,120 That was for. Extremely important too. To actually be on the African continent for the first time. 372 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:06,969 I'm not the same in England because the Jamaican community here is as big as the Turkish community in Germany. 373 00:43:06,970 --> 00:43:11,350 Perhaps, as I would rather compare, you are also these immigrant worker contexts. 374 00:43:11,950 --> 00:43:21,910 But when I came north, to Germany, where there are hardly any Jamaicans, I was really completely alienated. 375 00:43:22,990 --> 00:43:26,500 My culture was there, Bob Marley all knew cabbage. 376 00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:29,950 Rommel was also well known, i.e. Usain Bolt. 377 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:36,309 But what really defines Jamaica in terms of culture was no longer there. 378 00:43:36,310 --> 00:43:43,010 And There has always been the idea that Pan-Africanism is a Caribbean idea. 379 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:52,150 Well, it comes from there. The idea is that the enslaved people of the Americas of the Caribbean belong to this very continent. 380 00:43:52,510 --> 00:44:01,720 It's something I grew up with for a long time. And when I was actually on the continent for the first time, or for a long time before 381 00:44:01,990 --> 00:44:10,570 Because there are no Jamaicans or very few Jamaicans in Germany, everyone has always written Africa on my body. 382 00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:14,649 I was the African woman. Where are you from? Where is that? 383 00:44:14,650 --> 00:44:23,770 It was kind of okay, now Jamaica is in Africa, so it's really this one commitment to a geopolitical location 384 00:44:24,130 --> 00:44:29,710 What exactly constitutes this, this colonial mentality. 385 00:44:29,770 --> 00:44:33,009 So if it looks like this, it can only come from there, somewhere else. 386 00:44:33,010 --> 00:44:38,160 Not that we exist all over the world. This idea isn't really widespread yet. 387 00:44:38,410 --> 00:44:46,780 So another topic. But I'd rather say that was the whole thing. 388 00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:56,780 Always a companion. Well, this kind of connection on the one hand is attributed to being from Africa 389 00:44:56,780 --> 00:45:03,530 to be or somewhere in Africa or Africa the country far alone that on and on the other side. 390 00:45:03,530 --> 00:45:09,320 That pan-African idea from the Caribbean, to know from Jamaica. 391 00:45:09,530 --> 00:45:12,530 Yes, some of my ancestors definitely come from the continent. 392 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,889 It's just that I'll never know. And when I was there for the first time, it was an inspiration. 393 00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:24,200 Awakening definitely. So there's, um, something completely different happened to me. 394 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:29,600 So I was in, um, communities where I wasn't visible. 395 00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:35,089 It's an incredibly pleasant feeling not to be seen. 396 00:45:35,090 --> 00:45:38,959 That was the case there but it was the same in Brazil, even when I was there. 397 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,750 Many people have always thought that I am Brasilia Brazilian, I don't know a word of Portuguese. 398 00:45:44,990 --> 00:45:49,280 Then everything always flew up. The same is true in Ghana. 399 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,500 I also can't TUI or, or, or. It was immediately obvious that I wasn't from there. 400 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,390 But from a purely visual point of view, it was a certain quiet area. 401 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:07,160 And where I was able to deal with myself and my identity in a really different way, with an important part of my identity 402 00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:14,540 Which is, first and foremost, extremely visible to everyone else interpreting something in 403 00:46:15,050 --> 00:46:22,250 It is only from within that you rarely have time and space and peace to define at all. 404 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,080 What is that actually now? 405 00:46:24,830 --> 00:46:32,660 And that was a bit of this experience, which comes home to a completely different home on the continent in that regard as well. 406 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:38,540 Exactly a yes, spiritually, a returning. 407 00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:41,479 Yes, it is really a political issue. 408 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:53,180 Just what exactly began in Ghana in the 90s of return, which many African countries are doing now to say no came 409 00:46:54,530 --> 00:47:01,880 It reconnects you with your arms, with your beginnings, spiritually, now, spiritually. 410 00:47:02,450 --> 00:47:08,719 There is no other way I can describe it. I have one very last question before I would like to open up to the audience. 411 00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:16,100 But this, this opposition to the letter and that is enshrined in terms of 412 00:47:17,150 --> 00:47:22,310 Which you illustrate so beautifully in your book as well as. How did that work out? 413 00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:29,719 How are you through the interconnected threads of sisterhood and community, through the rhizome of the garden, 414 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:37,130 through the shoe boxes and then how did you decide on a structure and procedure for your project, 415 00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:42,860 So that the form also corresponds to your topic? Or speak so that you can also make the form a topic. 416 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:44,870 It was incredibly difficult. 417 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:54,230 Well, I've already published a few books, but that was that a long time ago to really get it together, because it wasn't like that 418 00:47:54,830 --> 00:48:03,350 It wasn't at all, because it is a matrix, it is a power matrix and it cannot be written linearly. 419 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:09,769 And I knew that and that was when I wrote it I realized you can't just get into this linearity 420 00:48:09,770 --> 00:48:13,069 Write this classic Eurocentric linearity. 421 00:48:13,070 --> 00:48:14,600 It won't work that way. 422 00:48:15,140 --> 00:48:24,680 That's why I've always worked with inserts, for example, I think some things have become audible where I really explain blocks. 423 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,309 I also wanted to bring the readers along. After all, it is an audience publisher. 424 00:48:28,310 --> 00:48:33,860 It is not a scientific publisher, where many concepts are not necessarily clear to everyone. 425 00:48:33,860 --> 00:48:37,309 That is why it was important to me that there were no question marks left. 426 00:48:37,310 --> 00:48:46,160 Then I made these inserts and then I wanted to make them visible, what was the difference between structural two. 427 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,780 The previous book Structural Racism, i.e. Racism, is a structural problem. 428 00:48:50,780 --> 00:48:55,850 We've been saying that every day or everyday time since 2001 and no one still understands it. 429 00:48:56,150 --> 00:49:02,300 Feels like yes. And because it is always reduced to an individual problem, to individual action, 430 00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:08,600 Then all of a sudden everyone feels attacked because then they feel like they are. 431 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:14,870 But that's not just what it's about, let's put it this way, there is also a structural level. 432 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,729 Racism is on the same level as patriarchy, as capitalism. 433 00:49:19,730 --> 00:49:23,660 They are structural powers. 434 00:49:24,590 --> 00:49:31,940 Circumstances that condition them yes or create social structures and we as individuals move in there. 435 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:41,690 And I also wanted to make these differences clear, i.e. that this is part of the power matrix to understand what is happening on the individual level. 436 00:49:41,690 --> 00:49:47,690 These are then the inserts of my biography, which I put in there, but are structurally located. 437 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:53,180 You then again in this entire matrix. And then I explained and it was. 438 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,200 Well, it took a long time to find the form, I have to say that honestly. 439 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,160 It was. Well, I don't know who you publish, everyone. 440 00:50:01,790 --> 00:50:05,300 Who starts with the first page and ends with the last page? 441 00:50:05,330 --> 00:50:08,870 Respect anyone who writes that way. So But me? 442 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,680 Me, not really myself. No 443 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:20,120 I usually start at the back and always notice maybe this is the last page and not the first. 444 00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:21,500 Everything is very familiar to me. 445 00:50:21,710 --> 00:50:27,890 I think we can all understand that and and there really isn't much that can be countered with the closing word now, 446 00:50:27,890 --> 00:50:31,520 But I'd love to take a few more questions from the audience if I may. 447 00:50:31,660 --> 00:50:39,080 No, preferably in German, of course. But I think it's also okay to put them in English if that's easier. 448 00:50:40,670 --> 00:50:44,030 I can't see anything because of the light. But there are several hands up. 449 00:50:45,530 --> 00:50:52,400 Yes, it works for now. Okay, thanks for the interesting insight into your perspective. 450 00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:55,879 I'm interested in your process of becoming German. 451 00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:00,560 You mentioned that you also cook dumplings with sauce and that you prefer to speak German. 452 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,900 You dream in German, you think in German. 453 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:11,090 I'm interested in how learning the German language, how it contributed to your German language, and played a role in it. 454 00:51:11,930 --> 00:51:18,350 I'll actually describe that in one chapter. Did we already say that the first three chapters are in the catalog? 455 00:51:18,860 --> 00:51:24,860 If we haven't said that yet, let's say it now. In English. 456 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:35,240 Translate. It played a big part, so as a language has always played a big part in my life. 457 00:51:35,540 --> 00:51:47,300 I have to say that. In other words, in finding identity, in political processes, in anti-racist, in feminist, in intersectional contexts. 458 00:51:47,570 --> 00:51:55,400 Especially in German. The German-German identity is actually inconceivable without language. 459 00:51:55,490 --> 00:51:58,610 In fact, you just have to record that. 460 00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:05,030 And I actually describe in one chapter how I went to elementary school to Germany. 461 00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:07,370 And there were three words I could understand. 462 00:52:08,030 --> 00:52:14,540 And I speak the German language and that was yes no and the answer and that was not yes no, 463 00:52:14,540 --> 00:52:19,470 As I say now, but I've heard yes, so I have and no. 464 00:52:19,490 --> 00:52:25,430 So for me, the German language was a very hard, aggressive language. 465 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,410 That's how I came to these languages then. 466 00:52:27,410 --> 00:52:35,180 That didn't require translation and so I was rather cautious about the language, that I had more of the feeling 467 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:42,380 I really don't want anything to do with all this language and everything that happens here in my childhood consciousness. 468 00:52:43,130 --> 00:52:48,350 And as a child, you learn faster than I was in elementary school. 469 00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:53,000 And then I learned how precise the German language is. 470 00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:07,230 What I do with the English language, for example, there are 50 words that write the same thing, so you know 471 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:16,730 And in German I would say a well and then the word, which is then something similar, but that is something else please. 472 00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:26,510 So it's an exact language now. No, no, no, a factual language, where perhaps my structure is also 473 00:53:26,540 --> 00:53:32,960 So a bit more comes through the language for me, because you really have to name things, because you can also name them. 474 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:39,169 And Francais is a very flowery one. Well yes 475 00:53:39,170 --> 00:53:49,610 With romantically connected and I saw everywhere an English like is such a yes with so 476 00:53:49,610 --> 00:53:53,870 Lots of words for the same things and then and then so and then the pronunciation. 477 00:53:53,870 --> 00:53:58,600 And when I drove here from London, you also come across this word now because it 478 00:53:58,610 --> 00:54:03,650 That is because it somehow does not match at all with what is actually written there. 479 00:54:04,070 --> 00:54:07,969 Yes, like when I understand what you mean. And German is very accurate. 480 00:54:07,970 --> 00:54:13,430 Very accurate, I think. And so it was easy for me to learn. 481 00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:18,499 I think where you can still tell that I've actually just learned German 482 00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:25,070 So that German is not my kind of language, is the article of the that that during this one. 483 00:54:27,230 --> 00:54:34,010 Album Never Now. Well I'll just never do that and there's just no rule. 484 00:54:34,350 --> 00:54:39,890 Well, you always have to learn them with the words and that's where my daughter corrects me. 485 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,810 That means chair. So yes, well then. 486 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,560 But otherwise for me, it was language for me. 487 00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:53,630 I mean, I also became a communication scientist. Well, not without reason, actually. 488 00:54:53,960 --> 00:55:01,340 And that's just how I came through visual communication, which is actually a completely different form of language for me. 489 00:55:01,670 --> 00:55:06,110 Just like theatre, body language. It all plays together for me. 490 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:13,140 No Yes, thank you very much. 491 00:55:13,380 --> 00:55:19,360 I found the comments on these external attributions extremely exciting and only had one question afterwards. 492 00:55:19,380 --> 00:55:27,300 Excuse me Better now, because there is also this term of post-migration and I find it very interesting. 493 00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:29,040 So close because Brahimi has, for example. 494 00:55:29,310 --> 00:55:36,030 With regard to Masha sen's life with exile, I think she would say for herself it is a life with post-migration. 495 00:55:36,030 --> 00:55:45,240 So this is a German-Iranian context, as I don't know whether you or you are using this term of post-migration for yourself, 496 00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:48,930 In other words, they would work for their own identity or even reject it. 497 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:55,950 For what reasons. I wouldn't participate myself because I'm not already working with migration. 498 00:55:56,340 --> 00:56:02,040 I think migration requires stations and that is why I reject it. 499 00:56:02,430 --> 00:56:10,350 Station therefore requires the norm. So migration describes more the norm than what is moving and that is 500 00:56:10,350 --> 00:56:16,350 Which is in migration or in post-migrant or in migrant with a foreground without end. 501 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:24,270 All that stuff and that's not who I am. So that makes sense to me is a long line of third-party operators. 502 00:56:24,540 --> 00:56:30,930 Then we were the foreigners and that's even more terms. At some point I became the national and then I was the education national. 503 00:56:31,830 --> 00:56:38,700 Now I am a multi-state and Germany always has everything ready for me except German. 504 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,950 And that tells you in particular that I had to go through migration experience as a child. 505 00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:55,270 But my daughter says it too. And that's just going to be bad for me, yes, it's always passed on from generation to generation. 506 00:56:55,570 --> 00:56:59,080 And you understand that you don't belong here. 507 00:56:59,860 --> 00:57:04,150 I think post-migrant is completely fair as an analytical term. 508 00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:08,320 I understand that too, especially in the communities, Turkish, German, 509 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:15,370 Community, etc. how it is negotiated, it is also closely related to post-colonial. 510 00:57:15,700 --> 00:57:24,970 That simply means nothing is over, but it is still ongoing and that's how I understand post-migrant nothing has arrived 511 00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:36,070 Close or static, rather the opposite, but we're still moving because we're being kept moving, in the truest sense of the word. 512 00:57:36,310 --> 00:57:43,320 In other words, the movement only stops when the structures are in such a way that we can calm down. 513 00:57:43,330 --> 00:57:47,440 Well, that's something. Move! Well then. Political movement at least. 514 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,540 I think we just have time for associations. 515 00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:56,659 I'm so sorry We'll have to postpone any more. Here's to drinks and dinner. 516 00:57:56,660 --> 00:58:02,000 And luckily we still have two full days left. But if a short one can still me. 517 00:58:06,940 --> 00:58:13,089 Connect. I would like to know how you feel that you are international. 518 00:58:13,090 --> 00:58:16,540 And I'd like to explain it a bit first. 519 00:58:17,590 --> 00:58:21,790 You mentioned that Miriam, for example, is very important to you in her work. 520 00:58:22,330 --> 00:58:31,719 And when I study with students in the seminary students in the Meier seminar, then we get to it relatively soon 521 00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:39,790 That she, so to speak, if we say so, if you consider yourself the daughter of Maria, then you are the granddaughter of Oilot. 522 00:58:40,550 --> 00:58:44,890 Yes, Odile Pilot was also very important for Meier's beginnings in. 523 00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:58,840 And then you come quickly. When you consider this, you quickly come to the conclusion that Meier's plant is also very international in outlook. 524 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:10,000 And I would like to know, in what way is it also important for you as a black person to see yourself in an international context? 525 00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:16,930 I don't think that they can be separated from each other at all, i.e. from a black perspective. 526 00:59:16,930 --> 00:59:21,489 I am part of the diaspora, which is why I reject the concept of national. 527 00:59:21,490 --> 00:59:25,510 Or even the topos nation doesn't belong to me at all. 528 00:59:25,870 --> 00:59:35,590 And Audrey clearly puts into perspective, as well as in reality, namely Worker Black Intellectual How Always Traveling Workers 529 00:59:35,890 --> 00:59:41,800 So in a black context, the educator has always been the traveler. 530 00:59:42,130 --> 00:59:56,200 So it was I wandering so to speak, so to speak the Black Knowledge, so to speak, that is because of history or history is yes 531 00:59:56,470 --> 01:00:06,400 when we refer to our story in the various African countries, ethnic groups, cultures. 532 01:00:06,730 --> 01:00:17,530 The best example or a specific example is the Yoruba religion, which has, um, I'll say when he or Yoruba, 533 01:00:17,530 --> 01:00:30,339 Bantu and and and went to Brazil and that's where Cannonball was created with a very clear connection to the Uruguayan roots. 534 01:00:30,340 --> 01:00:37,919 Well Cannonball it is absolutely impossible to imagine Brazilian or Afro-Brazilian culture without it. 535 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:47,350 So what? That's just like me, what I mean, what my understanding of knowledge is that it has always been migrating and of course that is also 536 01:00:47,350 --> 01:00:54,010 What keeps us moving, actually allows the diaspora to establish a connection to the continent in the first place. 537 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,280 We're always on the move, in the truest sense of the word. 538 01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:09,220 But I wouldn't necessarily want to have it embedded in a Eurocentric context and I think that's important. 539 01:01:09,490 --> 01:01:17,410 Well then. When we then talk about internationalization, that is a European perspective on black studies. 540 01:01:17,620 --> 01:01:28,030 What Black Studies is The Black Intellectual, which has always been on the move Aesthetics, Migration, Migration. 541 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:36,880 If you want to use the term, then yes, but not as a person who is forced in a political context in any way. 542 01:01:37,330 --> 01:01:42,910 Well then. We are therefore as it is used in the German context, for example. 543 01:01:43,300 --> 01:01:50,200 That is why, before I talk about internationality, I would rather talk about diaspora, about the African diaspora. 544 01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:57,790 That is also a chapter that explains exactly something like African diaspora, which opens up a completely different space. 545 01:01:58,150 --> 01:02:06,730 Yes, where we don't have to fish our way along colonial structures, which in the end they are, 546 01:02:07,030 --> 01:02:16,330 but a space in which being black does not first have to become a subject, but is already a subject. 547 01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:21,340 And those are exactly the people you're naming, so. Or dissident. 548 01:02:24,550 --> 01:02:28,510 Or she always said Y Law Traveling Worker about herself. 549 01:02:28,510 --> 01:02:35,080 She has traveled around the world and has always brought the same message to different places. 550 01:02:35,470 --> 01:02:43,750 Well then. It was and of course it had a different effect in the places where she was. 551 01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:50,670 But the message was always the same. And that was the same for me and it is no different for me. 552 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:56,440 So I travel to many countries around the world, my work is translated, 553 01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:05,560 I do theatre in Brazil, etc., but the message is always Afro Germans, yes. 554 01:03:06,020 --> 01:03:09,650 Emma and that is, I think, the line I'm standing in. 555 01:03:10,010 --> 01:03:14,720 And I wouldn't do that at all with internationality. Narrows that down a lot for me. 556 01:03:14,990 --> 01:03:19,910 Make it a linear narrative, which it simply isn't. 557 01:03:20,210 --> 01:03:27,980 It is the Matrix that really rotates in a star shape in itself. 558 01:03:28,310 --> 01:03:32,210 That is. We don't need to become intersectional as black women. 559 01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:36,380 We're intersectional. We don't have to be diverse. 560 01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:43,070 We're diverse. And that is something I would like German politics to finally understand. 561 01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:46,520 We don't need to do anything strategically. 562 01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:54,870 We already are. We already are. We already are. 563 01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,570 Not anymore. There is nothing more to add. 564 01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,940 Unfortunately, we also have to draw a preliminary line. It remains for me to thank you very much for the interview. 565 01:04:06,310 --> 01:04:10,470 Natasha, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. 566 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,160 You're very, very welcome. Completely, completely selfish. 567 01:04:16,380 --> 01:04:21,810 In terms of the Web List Maker aspect, this would be possible. 568 01:04:23,380 --> 01:04:27,860 Horse mackerel had been since.