Reminder. It's great to have you here thinking about Kafka.
Um, and in particular, if I may say, not only are you a German ist, but, uh, you have a career in dance as well.
And so it's particularly fitting that you're helping us to think about how Kafka has been translated metamorphosed into the world of ballet,
and in particular, the Royal Ballet's 2011 production of, uh, Differential Metamorphosis.
Um. So let me go straight in.
I mean, one of the things Kafka famously didn't want is to have the image of an insect on the cover of the book.
Um, so how does any kind of form that is visual deal with this aspect of metamorphosis?
And how did this how did the ballet deal with it? Yeah. Uh, great question, and thanks for having me.
Um, yeah. I mean, the, the the great thing about dance is that then you have to do it through the human body.
And the story is all about not having a human body.
So it's actually interesting, um, to think about how to translate it to the human body and what they, what they did wonderfully, I think.
So the, uh, the choreographers, uh, are to Peta and, um, the dancer is, um,
Edward Watson, who was a principal dancer at the Royal Ballet until recently.
And what they did is, is, is start to explore the most extreme movements of the human body, which we actually never use.
Or rally. And I mean, we have to say that Edward Watson's, um.
Abilities are beyond what most of us can do.
But you get these very complicated, extreme movements, um, that, as I said, humans don't use.
And so you get this contrast between how humans move, um, generally, um,
and how a human as insects might move and sort of did some experimentations, they told me.
And so one of the things they did was, um, they were thinking about fingers as, as kind of prongs because they felt like this was too mammalian.
So they so they started thinking about, okay, what if we only allow fingers on the floor rather than the whole palm?
And how does how do you start to move when you do that?
Right. And they thought there was something very insect like about moving like this.
And then one of the interesting things about the ballet is that it doesn't start with Greg was waking up as an insect,
but it actually starts off with him as still in a human body.
So you get this contrast. So he goes through very robotic everyday movements.
He gets up very stiffly, gets out of bed, does is everyday things, get stressed, walks out on a coffee, go, takes the train,
comes home, kisses his mother, goes back to bed, repeats three times but in a very robotic you know, almost like the human is.
Last humans, then the insects, because it's just in this mode of how to move.
Um, it's just this fascinating contracts that they set up from the beginning.
Coffee shop. Yum yum.
Philippine chicken. Stop.
And then. In.
The day you. Scott Lake.
Lately, I. What's fascinating about that, um, and what you said about the the more than human is that it?
And the way you beautifully showed us sort of moving in ways that humans don't, is that becoming insect is an extension of humanity, it seems.
Then in your interpretation and in the interpretation of the ballet,
it's accessing parts that are within us already, but are an extension of who we are.
Does that make sense? Yeah. Yes, exactly. But maybe even even what's in us, but which we in our everyday lives don't explore, right.
So that's something about improvisation, which I think is very important about the piece.
And even though the ready piece might be fixed choreography, the the way of going, there is actually a lot of improvising, as I just said.
Right. So, like, what can my body do away from what I do in everyday life?
And so I think. Yes, exactly.
It's not. It doesn't become non-human.
It becomes almost extreme. And on the extremes of humanity or, you know, the possibilities of a human body beyond what we do in everyday life.
And I think that's kind of interesting. Right.
And like and that's sets up that contract, uh, contrast also with the family which is and which, which has a life to live has things to do.
And he is almost just enjoying what he can do with this, with his body, right, with the human body.
And, and in a text that's, that's, that's, uh, contrasted with the working life where you, you know, you would like to lie in bed,
maybe exploring your body,
but you have to get up at seven and you have to do this and this and this and this and this and this, and it's um, so that's,
that's really interesting because it's thinking about it as a release from the human, actually, and, uh,
a kind of an entry into, into something where as many readings would see it as a kind of reduction,
as an erasure of humanity as a, as a, as a and after all, can I go get smaller and smaller and fades away and and eventually dies?
Of course. But you all, you know, you're, you're pitching it the other way around that this is a kind of release from the tedium or from work or from.
Yeah. And I think and I think that's not, that's not, uh, diverging from Kafka's texts all that much, because also in Kafka's text,
he uses the word creature not for, um, Gregor as an insect, but actually for the, for the man from work who comes and has to collect him.
Ah, has to check on him. Why? He's not at work.
Right. And he calls him the creature of the boss. So someone who?
Yeah. Has to do. Has to is stuck in this in this working life.
And it's almost as if almost a comment on the lack of humanity that goes into this strict working life.
You mentioned the family, and then you mentioned the kind of work people.
And one of the things that was very striking in the ballet is that there's a little bit of insect movement.
I'm beginning to move now, a bit of insect movement in all the company, isn't that?
Um, can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah.
And I think that kind of comes to listen to your point about, about actually not a radical break from humanity,
but the connections actually between humanity and this extreme humanity or this extreme exploration of the human body.
Um, and I talked about, ah, the choreographer Art Peter has talked about this in and dancer two about the process of choreographing, which wasn't.
Okay. Well, we'll take Atwood Watson, who does Gregor in a separate room and we'll explore with him what the what what he can do as an insect.
And the family would do very different things,
but that they came together in the beginning as a group and started to explore what an insect might look like,
and then took some of these ideas also into the choreography of the family and thinking a little bit about, okay, what's that?
What's that extra humanity in all of us so that there's still a kind of a connection that that he's not.
Completely separate from the family. But there is still this connection does not mean we might all one day wake up as medicine.
Well, I mean, perhaps and I think this this if we if we take the insect like then as a kind of exploration or improvisation or,
or maybe a changing body or change.
Funny. Then we're coming into interesting territory about what it means for us when we get older, when we can't do what we could do when we were 18,
are, you know, think also about disability and what what does that to do to our way of moving around a space.
And that all comes back to improvisation or, or reconfiguring our relationship to space.
Right. And I think that's both in Kafka's text, but also what the choreographer does so beautifully in the piece is exploring that that's.
Uh, improvisation of movement that we all have to do at some points.
Right? And so, yes, we might one day wake up in some way.
As an insight. I love the idea of the change as improvisation.
Let's look at a piece that tells us exactly about that.
Yes. Okay.
Oh. Uh, that's so powerful.
Um, as a, as a kind of series of images.
And you really also feel exactly what you said, this sort of reaching into the movement and reaching into this other existence.
Um, um, now, this all could sound very nightmarish and alienating and, uh, dark.
And obviously that's often how Kafka is read. But I know that, like me, you think there's other things going on there as well.
People tend to think that the transformation has already happened.
And, well, what interests me actually about the ballet is that it shows that, well, what if we think of the body,
actually from the perspective of Gregor Witch, who wakes up in a body who doesn't and he doesn't know what what it can do.
And so it's actually an exploration of a body.
And even if it doesn't always add up in the texts how many legs he has, when he can do that, his size and everything,
it's might be just a, uh, a way of thinking about what it's like to have a body, and you don't know what that body can do.
And so I like to think of the text as a continuous metamorphosis, of an exploration of what a body can do, rather than,
uh, let's count how many legs he has and then look at a book of insects and see which insects kind of come on to me.
And as something. Joyful in exploring your body and what it can do.
And I mean, that's why we love dancing. That's why we love sports.
That's why we find achievements in sports so interesting.
Right? It's it's this extremes of human capability, but also in our own, you know, achieving something that you thought your body might not do.
And like improving your body is, is joyful.
And this wonderful passage is actually in the Metamorphosis, where he's suddenly hanging on the ceiling and enjoying himself.
And that's what it says. And so, yes, horror.
But then there's these little moments where actually he's enjoying himself and the sadness comes from not being part of the family anymore,
but actually. The embedded part actually offers a lot of joy.
And and and it's quite funny.
And the beginning when he, you know, it's almost falls out of, uh, it's this kind of very Kafkaesque.
Um, uh, slapstick. Almost. Right.
Like, absolutely. And then wonders how he's going to get to work.
Exactly. The first thing. Yeah, yeah.
And there's still that's that the humanity or, you know, the previous mindset of what time is it's how do I get to work?
Uh, this will wear off quickly. Quickly. I'm sure. I just have to get to work.
Uh, you know, and rather than saying, oh, I just I give up, I, I really like, um, what you said about the joy and the expansiveness.
Um, and it's right that he, he learns to sort of climb the walls and so on.
But of course,
that is also taken away from him with the apple in his back and the illness and and there it strikes me we're much more into the territory of age.
And I think I can say this because I'm quite a bit older than you of, uh,
your knees are no longer working as they used to, and you're not being able to do the things you used to.
And, um, and that reduction. So we're back to the reduction again, aren't we?
Uh, in the end. Yeah. That's right. So.
I think that's I think that's a fascinating point, because in a way, I mean, we have this fantastic dancer who really, you know,
can do all these amazing things, but at the same time, there is a limit there because he can't move as he usually moves.
And it's a lot of. It's actually the improvisation happens in in a lot of reduction and with set rules okay.
So you can't put your hand down. I mean you have to use your only your fingers.
What happens then. And I think that's connection to changing bodies.
And, and um, ageing is very interesting because we, we tend to think of that as a reduction of what we can do.
But mind it also offers something new. Right.
It says something. Is there something in walking the streets slower because, you know, and that's at the age of 80 perhaps.
Right. And walking through the city slower does not afford something that previously the city didn't afford because you could rush through it.
Right. And what's, what's what might be the options there too.
So yes, reduction and also opening up new possibilities that were perhaps there,
but you didn't use or because you, you're too busy rushing for a train.
Exactly, exactly. Um, now, one of the I mean, this is, uh, one of many translations of Kafka that we're kind of talking about in this series.
And obviously, whenever one does that, there are certain things that are amplified and certain things that are reduced or certain choices to make.
Um, and it's, you know, particularly powerful in this very visual form of what,
what happens to the text when it becomes, um, movement, when it becomes dance, when it becomes music actually as well.
Mhm. Yeah. Uh good question. So music is a is a very interesting thing I think because.
I should we should mention Frank moon, who's the composer of the piece and who's on stage making the music all by himself.
So he he makes noises and the choreographer describes the dance.
Actually, that Gregory is a is a partner, is a is a collaboration between the musician and Edward Watson.
And that's and so when Edward is extending his leg up and you have this screeching noise that the composer make, but it's not set in time.
So they can they can work together, you know, and maybe even tease each other, like how far can you go?
And it does the movement go on or the music go on and respond to each other.
So, you know, and the sounds that Gregor makes as an animal, um, and there's that fantastic camera angle as well from above the foot.
That's right. Yeah, yeah. I find sort of mind blowing to the camera work.
Yeah. And for the DVD. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. That's right. Um, one of the interesting things is that.
Um Gregor in the previous life is a travelling salesman and so relies on voice.
And then suddenly he can't speak, or he can make noises and he still thinks he's speaking with them,
realises that there's no there's nothing coming back from other people and that they don't understand him.
And it slowly fades away and that's again that. Not a transformation that has already happened, but that's happening.
Trends. Um, but that's that that interests me that that that that change from someone who relies so much on his voice for his work,
to someone who's exploring his body and can't speak, is is is actually the same as going from the text, a text based medium to a dance based medium.
Right. And so going from. Speaking about his transformation to dancing, his transformation.
And that's. That's that's why it's I think it's a wonderful text to do in this way.
And it's very little I mean, he doesn't go doesn't have dialogue in the text and the family does.
And um, so it makes a lot of sense actually to, I think to.
And also, I mean gesture and movement and embodiment are so central in all Kafka's titles.
Yeah. Someday. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Um, that's that's heaps of wonderful moments in Kafka if you start exploring them and are often quite sticky.
So, you know, and, uh, the fantastic work has been done on this by various academics, but but the kind of the, the.
Uncoordinated movements,
especially of the humans that always miss the mark or they like that are as cramped in some way into spaces that don't quite fit,
and they slip on something, or they try to. And I think at the beginning of, um, of deviation, um,
he wants to actually kick a mouse away from somewhere, and instead he just helps the mouse on its way.
Right. These kind of little movements that that show you that the human characters are always kind of failing.
And that's also where a lot of the humour is. But it also contrasts with The Metamorphosis,
where in a way he starts to succeed with his new body and then hang on and explore this new state at the, at the ceiling.
Right. So I find that that contrast very interesting,
that suddenly that that rather than these failures of movement here we find also at least a little bit of success.