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(calm music)

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- Thank you so much for
being here this evening.

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Should be really nice,
fun event we've got.

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To help celebrate the centenary

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since Kafka's death,

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not that we're celebrating the death.

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So across the university this summer,

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there's a series of events

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and we as a section wanted

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to think about some of the biology

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behind some of the imagery
and the subject matter

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of the metamorphosis.

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So in this panel discussion tonight,

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we'd like to explore

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really our relationship
with insects as humans

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and think about, well, as
you may know from the book,

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there's this really quite
strong negative reaction

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to this transformation into an insect.

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And we'd like to kind of drill down into,

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well, why is that the
response that we tend to have

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as humans to insects?

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And then we also want to
think about and talk about

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the ethics of insects and
our relationship with them.

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Why do we perceive them in certain ways

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and why do we treat them in certain ways?

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And overall, I really like
this to be a celebration

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of insects and how remarkable they are

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and all the things that they do for us

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and thinking about our
interactions with them,

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especially in the face of global change.

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So we're very lucky to
be joined this evening

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by a fantastic panel.

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So we have Professor Rosemary Gillespie

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from the University of
California, Berkeley,

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and she's the systematic entomology...

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A chair in systematic entomology

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and Professor of Environmental Science,

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Policy and management.

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And she's an evolutionary biologist

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interested in the drivers
and diversification

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of populations and species.

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She has served as president of
the American Genetic Society,

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the International Biogeography Society,

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and the American Arachnological Society.

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She's also the faculty director

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of the Essig Museum of Entomology,

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and currently the president

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of the International
Society of Arachnology.

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She completed her BSC in zoology

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at the University of Edinburgh

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before moving to the
United States to do a PhD

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on the behavioral ecology of arachnids

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at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville.

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Following this, she worked
as a postdoctoral researcher

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at the University of Hawaii,

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working closely with the
Nature Conservancy of Hawaii,

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based off the island of Maui.

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She took an appointment
as assistant professor

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at the University of Hawaii in Manoa.

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In 1999, she left Hawaii
to join the faculty

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at the University of California, Berkeley.

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She's currently on
sabbatical here at Oxford

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as a visiting senior research
fellow in evolutionary biology

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and biodiversity at Jesus College.

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Next we have Dr. Clair Linzey,

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who is the Deputy Director
of the Oxford Center

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for Animal Ethics.

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She's also a research
fellow in animal ethics

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at Wycliffe Hall in the
University of Oxford

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and the Francis Power Professor

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of Animal Theology at the
Graduate Theological Foundation.

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Her interests include
a wide range of topics

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in ethics and theology,
including animal ethics

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and animal theology.

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She did an MA in theological studies

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at the University of St. Andrews,

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followed by an MTS at
Harvard Divinity School.

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She then returned to St. Andrews

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to complete her PhD in theology.

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In addition, she's director
of the Annual Oxford

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Animal Ethics Summer School,

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an interdisciplinary event attended

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by academics and students
from around the world

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held at Merton College,
University of Oxford.

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She serves as co-editor for
"The Journal of Animal Ethics",

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published by the University
of Illinois Press

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and is co-editor of the Powell
Grave McMillion book series

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on animal ethics,

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which comprises more than
40 multidisciplinary books

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on animal related issues.

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And our third panel member is
Professor Geraldine Wright,

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who is the Hope Professor of Entomology

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at the University of Oxford
and is professorial fellow

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of Jesus College.

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She's an insect neuropathologist

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and leads the bee lab in
the department of biology.

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She's interested in how insects perceive

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and learn about their environment.

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Specifically, her lab works
with honeybees and bumblebees

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studying their chemical sensation,

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learning, feeding and ecology.

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She completed her BSC in botany
at the University of Wyoming

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before joining the University of Oxford

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as a Rhodes Scholar to complete
her PhD in insect nutrition

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and herbivory at Hartford College.

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Following this, she took up a position

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as a postdoctoral researcher
at Ohio State University

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where she investigated
olfaction in honeybees

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and also completed an MSC in statistics.

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She then returned to the UK
joining Newcastle University

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as lecturer before progressing to reader

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and then professor in neuropathology

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in the Institute of Neuroscience.

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She eventually returned to Oxford in 2018

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as professor of comparative physiology

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and organismal biology.

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On becoming Hope professor
of Entomology in 2021,

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she became the first woman to hold

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this prestigious position.

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Okay, so just to start,

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I'd like to have this as
interactive as possible as well.

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So we will have a question
session at the end.

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So please, if you have
any thoughts or questions

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as we go along, then
save those to the end.

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When we do get to doing the questions,

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try and wait until we've
got the microphone to you

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before you ask your question
so that everybody can hear.

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So just to start off,

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I'd like to do a little
poll of the audience.

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So first of all, just raise
your hand if you like insects

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and other arthropods and invertebrates.

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Okay, so I feel like
we've got a quite a good

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easy job here tonight
preaching to the converted.

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Just out of interest, kind of conversely,

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raise your hands, if you're brave enough,

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if you are disgusted by insects

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or maybe just certain types
of insects, invertebrates.

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Yeah, quite a few disgusted people too.

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Okay, we'll see if that changes.

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And then finally, just one to think about,

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raise your hand if you believe
that insects are sentient.

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Okay and again, we'll come
back to these at the end

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and see if there's been
any changes in opinions.

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So to start off, I'd
like to go down our panel

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to each of you ask the same
very open, broad question,

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which you can answer and
interpret how you wish.

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So the first question is,

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is our view of insects universal?

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And just as a caveat,

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every time I say insects this evening,

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I'm not just talking about insects,

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we're also talking about other arthropods,

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other invertebrates
with the kind of insects

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being the group that's
bringing that all together.

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So Rosemary, would you like to kick off?

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- Is it universal?

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We should have had the questions
before so we could prep up.

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So I think it varies tremendously actually

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in different parts of the world.

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It does vary though,
according to your age.

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I think, you know, when I used to,

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I work on spiders, so
I don't profess to know

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very much at all about insects,

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but anyway, I'd go to the kid's school

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and talk about spiders.

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And when the kids were, you know,

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four, five, six, seven,

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it was, you know, you'd
go in there and you know,

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oh, how many legs does a spider have?

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Eight, you know?

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How many eyes?

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Eight, you know?

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And so they knew so much
and they were so curious

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and they so wanted to learn.

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And then it seemed like, you
know, when they hit puberty

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and then that learning all
becomes undone somehow.

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And there's, you know?

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So it seems like it's very
much a learned behavior,

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this kind of fear of
spiders in particular.

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But if they, if, you
know, when they get older,

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I think if they can,

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if any students, if any people
can learn about spiders,

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I think it changes their
attitude altogether.

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I find that iNaturalist, when
people get onto iNaturalist

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and really look at things,

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it changes their attitude altogether.

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I teach a course in spider biology

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and colleagues teach entomology.

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And there, you know, the kids, you know,

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in spider biology, they
start off, you know,

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why are you taking this course?

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You know, they don't really know.

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Some people are brave enough to say

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that they're actually
really scared of spiders

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and they don't wanna touch them.

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But then during the course,
they actually learn,

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they learn about spiders and they really,

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it changes their whole
outlook on the world,

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not just spiders.

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I mean, they're seeing things
where they weren't before.

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Anyway, you can go now, Clair.

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- Yeah, I would have to agree.

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I think it's enormously different,

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from different cultural perspectives.

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I'm a theologian by training,

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and if you are a Jane,
for example, a Jane Monks,

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they sweep the floor in front of them

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so as not to harm insects
and not to step on them.

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Whereas, you know, other cultures,

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it's very normal to eat insects.

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And obviously we've moved more towards

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using insects in the western world,

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which is why you're seeing the
advent of industrial farming

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of insects more than you used to.

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So I think it is enormously
culturally constructed.

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I think it's also that it's also a sense

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that some insects might be
friendlier than others, you know?

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And I think that's culturally constructed.

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A lot of people really love ladybugs

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and bumblebees which are
obviously lovely and you know?

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Nicole would know much more about than me.

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But for example, bees are having somewhat

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of a popular resurgence right now.

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I would say you see it
on a lot of jewelry,

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you see it on a lot of
apparel that you can wear,

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and I think that they are revered in a way

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in which other animals,

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which maybe do similar jobs,

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like wasps for example, are demonized.

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And I think they are culturally
constructed views for sure.

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- Anyone knows me that
I'm on a personal crusade

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to convince people to love wasps.

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- Didn't know that.

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- Any thoughts on the universality

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of our perceptions of insects?

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- I think in the West,

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at least what I was taught in school

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is that we have a construction,

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a social construction
where we're at the top

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of the said food chain

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and everything kind of
cascades down, right?

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And a lot of sort of
classical phylogenies even

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were based on this sort of
greater chain of being, right?

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Where humans sat at the top

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and everything was lower than them.

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I don't think that other cultures

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have that same view of other organisms.

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So Clair just gave the example
of the Jane's who have a,

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I don't want to kill
anything to, you know,

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they want to only eat fruits or things

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that trees give to them.

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So they don't want, they have obviously

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a different relationship
to other organisms

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than someone who believes
that those things are there

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to serve them in terms of where they are

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in a sort of social hierarchy

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or a even a sort of bio hierarchy.

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So I don't think it is universal,

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although I would say that our view,

260
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,140
as Rosemary was kind of alluding to,

261
00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:11,880
changes when we become more educated

262
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,050
about anything that we know, right?

263
00:12:16,050 --> 00:12:19,020
Organisms that are around
us or the plants or fungi,

264
00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:24,020
we start to have more respect
for the amazing forms of life

265
00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:26,100
that share the planet with us.

266
00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:29,847
So I would say that over time,

267
00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:33,990
at least in the West,

268
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:35,880
the viewpoint of our relationship

269
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,890
to other animals like insects has evolved

270
00:12:39,810 --> 00:12:44,810
with the advent of general
education of people.

271
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,296
But there are several other religions

272
00:12:47,296 --> 00:12:50,280
that believe that life
itself is, you know,

273
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,750
means that you have some sentience.

274
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:55,980
And so I think that

275
00:12:55,980 --> 00:12:58,680
that would be my sort of
ad hoc answer to that.

276
00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:00,090
I don't.

277
00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:03,510
- Just kind of touched on
with all those answers there,

278
00:13:03,510 --> 00:13:07,590
that there's some degree of
change in these perceptions,

279
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:11,040
whether that's through
age or through learning.

280
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,310
Does that suggest that
our reaction to insects

281
00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:16,710
is something that is fully learned

282
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:20,763
or is that some level or
degree of innate reaction?

283
00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:24,600
- Oh, I think there's a definitely,

284
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,720
I have an instinctual reaction
to anything crawling on me,

285
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,030
biting me or attacking me.

286
00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:31,230
And if you've been to the tropics,

287
00:13:31,230 --> 00:13:33,990
you realize that many
things do crawl on you,

288
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:35,520
bite you and attack you.

289
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,240
So I definitely think we
have an instinctual response

290
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:40,430
to that I would...

291
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:45,273
Aversion to being bitten,
crawled on, stung.

292
00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:51,480
- Yeah, I don't know.

293
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,150
I'm not sure whether it's...

294
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,370
I can totally see that you,

295
00:13:56,370 --> 00:13:58,320
one can have an aversion to being bitten,

296
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,930
crawled on or stung for sure.

297
00:14:00,930 --> 00:14:04,590
Whether that means that we need
to treat them the way we do?

298
00:14:04,590 --> 00:14:08,785
I think those are two separate things.

299
00:14:08,785 --> 00:14:10,290
And to answer your question,

300
00:14:10,290 --> 00:14:13,440
I hope that that is
something that can change

301
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,013
or that we can evolve to move beyond.

302
00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:22,080
Oh, I mean, because one
hopes that in general

303
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:23,610
we can move beyond the idea that,

304
00:14:23,610 --> 00:14:24,900
oh, I don't like something,

305
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:26,970
or that's not a nice experience

306
00:14:26,970 --> 00:14:29,130
to I can treat them, you know?

307
00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:31,260
And thus I treat them
a certain way, right?

308
00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:33,480
You know, hopefully morally speaking,

309
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,580
we can distinguish those two things.

310
00:14:35,580 --> 00:14:38,550
Even if our natural response is, oh,

311
00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:41,493
or I'm frightened or whatever, you know?

312
00:14:42,605 --> 00:14:44,423
I dunno if that answers your question.

313
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,250
- So do you think that
instinctive reaction

314
00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:54,090
is there some kind of
evolutionary function

315
00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:55,623
to that purpose?

316
00:14:57,424 --> 00:15:00,039
- I'd say it's a bit hard.

317
00:15:00,039 --> 00:15:04,313
It's hard to say how
much is actually innate

318
00:15:05,820 --> 00:15:08,133
and because the, you know,

319
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:11,580
I work in Hawaii where, you know,

320
00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:15,630
there really aren't, there
isn't much, at least, you know,

321
00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:19,050
not much that's native that
could do anything to you.

322
00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:23,610
And you know, I would just
sleep in the forest floor.

323
00:15:23,610 --> 00:15:25,980
There were no ants, there's no, you know,

324
00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:27,870
bees, no mosquitoes.

325
00:15:27,870 --> 00:15:32,870
And so you know, in some places, you know,

326
00:15:33,050 --> 00:15:35,340
there just aren't, I mean,

327
00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:39,360
as you know, as we're saying,

328
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,570
you know, in the tropical
areas like, you know?

329
00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:43,680
Well Hawaii is tropical,

330
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,610
but going to, you know,
the continental tropics,

331
00:15:47,610 --> 00:15:50,310
then you've got a huge diversity of things

332
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:53,040
that are going to sting and bite.

333
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,717
And so I think there's a
kind of innate feeling that,

334
00:15:55,717 --> 00:15:57,840
you know, if something's gonna,

335
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,600
if something's crawling on
you or something's, you know,

336
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,400
yeah, you're feeling something,

337
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,930
I think there's is a tendency

338
00:16:06,930 --> 00:16:09,660
to want to get rid of it.

339
00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:12,150
It's hard to know how much of
that is learned, I don't know.

340
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:13,920
- Yeah, I think it's really hard to know

341
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:14,940
how much of it is learned.

342
00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:16,620
I think it's also,

343
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:19,350
I think it is different in
different cultures, you know?

344
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:21,833
I think it is, some things are
more culturally constructed.

345
00:16:21,833 --> 00:16:26,070
I mean, we were talking earlier
about spiders and, you know,

346
00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:29,223
and some places they seem
less afraid of them than here.

347
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,610
So, I mean, it's hard to say,

348
00:16:32,610 --> 00:16:35,230
but I think the question for me is less

349
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,813
whether it's innate and what
we do with those feelings.

350
00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:48,290
- Okay, so onto another big question.

351
00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:53,610
I'm just going to ask first of all,

352
00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,010
what is sentience?

353
00:16:56,010 --> 00:17:00,840
And then follow that, do we
think that insects are sentient?

354
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,403
And how do we pass that out?

355
00:17:03,540 --> 00:17:04,690
Just start with-
- No.

356
00:17:05,689 --> 00:17:08,280
(everyone laughs)

357
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,263
- I'm gonna look it up on Wikipedia.

358
00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:16,680
So sentience it means thinking, right?

359
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:17,613
Can they think?

360
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:19,980
What, are we gonna have
a shared definition

361
00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:21,270
of what we think sentience is

362
00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:22,500
and then we can have an argument

363
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:24,690
about whether insects are or aren't?

364
00:17:24,690 --> 00:17:28,890
- Philosophically, it often
means the ability to feel

365
00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:30,240
pain versus pleasure

366
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,210
and then corresponding
emotions that follow.

367
00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:35,850
But I also understand
that other people include

368
00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:37,500
definitions of consciousness in it.

369
00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:38,853
So I think it is a bit,

370
00:17:39,870 --> 00:17:43,143
I don't know if scientifically
it's defined differently.

371
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,120
- Yeah, it's a bit of an odd term.

372
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,950
I mean, in my mind,
you know, we justify...

373
00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:56,010
We justify collecting
things, as biologists,

374
00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:59,130
we often justify collecting
things and hurting things

375
00:17:59,130 --> 00:18:03,180
saying that, you know,
that they're not like us.

376
00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:04,890
They don't feel like us.

377
00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:08,880
But if you put a spider in ethanol,

378
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,680
it does not want to be there.

379
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,680
And you know, you are hurting that animal.

380
00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:18,540
You try and minimize that and you know,

381
00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:21,090
I, you know, as a biologist,

382
00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:24,360
I justify all sorts of, you
know, reasons for doing this.

383
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:28,380
But my feeling is that, you know,

384
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:31,950
if anything, is showing that
it actually wants to live,

385
00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:33,720
it does not want to die.

386
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,450
And so then, you know,
you need to respect that.

387
00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:40,830
That's kind of where my level of kind of

388
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:42,480
where the sentience comes in.

389
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:43,880
If something wants to,

390
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,680
if something clearly wants to stay alive.

391
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,010
- So a definition of it
from the dictionary online

392
00:18:50,010 --> 00:18:53,010
is that it's a not, it's
distinguished from the mental

393
00:18:53,010 --> 00:18:57,000
or intelligence, it's
as a state or a feeling.

394
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,700
So at least the dictionary definition

395
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,010
is that it involves feeling.

396
00:19:02,010 --> 00:19:03,960
So are animal sentient

397
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,423
or are insect sentient
is what you asked, right?

398
00:19:08,340 --> 00:19:10,290
- And is that the same for all insects?

399
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:15,780
- So when I was at Newcastle University,

400
00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:18,270
I had a very good friend,

401
00:19:18,270 --> 00:19:21,210
she still is my good friend
named Melissa Bateson.

402
00:19:21,210 --> 00:19:25,320
And Melissa is an expert in animal welfare

403
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,670
and was studying something
called cognitive bias in animals

404
00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:32,760
and looking for evidence
for cognitive bias.

405
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,700
And people that study animal behavior

406
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:38,340
always wanna be careful that
they're not anthropomorphizing

407
00:19:38,340 --> 00:19:39,480
the animal's behavior, right?

408
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,580
They want to really
have an objective sense

409
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:44,283
of what they're observing.

410
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:48,660
And so the folks that were
working in animal welfare

411
00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:51,690
really wanted to have a sense of if,

412
00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:53,910
and to try to determine, do animals feel?

413
00:19:53,910 --> 00:19:57,570
Do they have something that's
akin to what we call emotion?

414
00:19:57,570 --> 00:20:01,680
And they developed this
term called cognitive bias,

415
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,020
which is actually applied also
in human psychology, right?

416
00:20:04,020 --> 00:20:06,060
So if you have a cognitive bias,

417
00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:07,980
it means that when you're depressed,

418
00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:10,500
you see the picture or the glass

419
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:12,420
as half empty or half full, right?

420
00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:14,790
So if you're depressed, it's half empty,

421
00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:18,930
and if you are feeling great,
this is half full glass.

422
00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,750
And we know from studies of humans

423
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:25,470
that if a person is depressed,

424
00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:28,917
you ask them different
sort of ambiguous question

425
00:20:28,917 --> 00:20:31,650
and you give them a series of words

426
00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:35,910
and ask them to say to define those words.

427
00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:37,560
They'll hear a word like pain

428
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,690
and they'll think of physical pain

429
00:20:39,690 --> 00:20:41,940
rather than something
like a window pane, right?

430
00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:44,100
So ambiguous stimuli are interpreted

431
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,800
with their sort of negative connotation.

432
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,730
And these people that
work in animal welfare

433
00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:51,780
were working with mammals,

434
00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:56,310
with mice and other
larger animals like cows

435
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:58,830
and trying to come up with assays

436
00:20:58,830 --> 00:21:00,420
to see if they could do the same thing.

437
00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:02,310
You know, are these animals
that are kept in a, you know,

438
00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:04,710
confined state depressed and you know,

439
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:06,330
can we give them this task?

440
00:21:06,330 --> 00:21:09,150
And then look at these the way
they respond to these tasks

441
00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:12,180
to see if they would interpret
them in a negative way.

442
00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:13,350
Usually what that involves

443
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:15,840
is that you have a series of stimuli,

444
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,790
one of them's trained
to a positive outcome

445
00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:18,623
like a food reward,

446
00:21:18,623 --> 00:21:20,460
and the other one's trained

447
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:23,430
to a negative outcome like a shock.

448
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:26,010
And then there are things
in between that are hard

449
00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:26,843
for the animal to tell,

450
00:21:26,843 --> 00:21:28,530
whether it's the positive
one or the negative one.

451
00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:29,490
They have to make a judgment

452
00:21:29,490 --> 00:21:31,770
about whether they're one or the other.

453
00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:35,313
And when I heard that she
was doing this with birds,

454
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:39,180
I, you know, 'cause we would
sit around and talk after work

455
00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:42,910
and I realized that, you know, in my lab

456
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:47,940
we'd been studying the
bees sense of smell.

457
00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:50,910
And we had this assay
where we were looking

458
00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:53,310
at discrimination of odors, floral odors.

459
00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:54,330
We were trying to understand, you know,

460
00:21:54,330 --> 00:21:55,800
the mechanisms of olfaction

461
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,570
and looking at how well bees are

462
00:21:57,570 --> 00:21:59,250
at discriminating one flower from another

463
00:21:59,250 --> 00:22:01,350
or one floral scent from another.

464
00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:03,990
And doing it quite precisely
by taking two compounds

465
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:07,650
and mixing them in a perfume
to make different ratios

466
00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:08,790
of the two odors.

467
00:22:08,790 --> 00:22:10,950
And we know that when we do that,

468
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:14,070
the smells are similar but not the same.

469
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:16,140
And that they're, that you
get a nice linear gradient

470
00:22:16,140 --> 00:22:18,570
of the response of the
animal to those scents.

471
00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:20,550
So if you train a
honeybee, which you can do,

472
00:22:20,550 --> 00:22:23,070
bees are very good at
learning to associate odor

473
00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:26,610
with food reward and then
you present her with a series

474
00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:28,020
of these odors,

475
00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:29,730
the extent to which she will generalize

476
00:22:29,730 --> 00:22:31,410
her learned association to those odors

477
00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:33,750
depends on the proportion of the two odors

478
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:36,600
relative to the one she was trained with.

479
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,550
And I had this task and
I was like, oh, well,

480
00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:41,610
you know, Melissa, we can
train bees to associate

481
00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:43,770
one of those odors with sugar reward

482
00:22:43,770 --> 00:22:47,370
and the other one with
a quinine punishments,

483
00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:49,120
like a bitter taste on their mouth.

484
00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:52,140
So we have the perfect assay

485
00:22:52,140 --> 00:22:55,740
for actually assessing
whether bees have emotion

486
00:22:55,740 --> 00:22:57,960
because you have the same
assays you're doing with birds,

487
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,580
but you're doing with visual stimuli

488
00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:02,010
or we can do it with odors and bees.

489
00:23:02,010 --> 00:23:03,420
So we designed a set of experiments

490
00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:05,160
to test whether we could stress bees out

491
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,100
and see whether we could
produce a cognitive bias

492
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:10,290
towards these odors.

493
00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:13,230
And what we did is we
had an undergraduate,

494
00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:15,660
in those days, I didn't
have so many in my lab,

495
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:17,970
but was using undergraduates
really as researchers

496
00:23:17,970 --> 00:23:22,110
and she was training

497
00:23:22,110 --> 00:23:24,780
bees to do this task,

498
00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:26,400
and then she'd take those bees

499
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,560
and half of them she
would set to the side,

500
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,980
and the other half she
would put on this machine

501
00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:34,200
that we have in the lab
called a vorticizer,

502
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,450
which produces vibrations.

503
00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:37,347
So you put the animals on there

504
00:23:37,347 --> 00:23:41,040
and you shake them violently
for 30 seconds or so

505
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,870
and then set them to the side.

506
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:44,340
And then she would do her test

507
00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:46,410
about 10 or 15 minutes after that.

508
00:23:46,410 --> 00:23:48,390
I think it was 15 minutes,
I'd have to check the paper.

509
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:50,190
I'm not sure how long she waited.

510
00:23:50,190 --> 00:23:51,690
So she tried to stress 'em out by shaking.

511
00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:52,980
We know that bees get really annoyed

512
00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:54,240
when they've been shaking, right?

513
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,860
You put 'em in a truck
and do you let 'em out?

514
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:56,820
And they're all coming for you.

515
00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:59,220
So we decided the shaking would be a good

516
00:23:59,220 --> 00:24:00,960
and stressful thing to do.

517
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,400
And sure enough, what we
found is that on average,

518
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,020
the bees that had been shaken

519
00:24:07,020 --> 00:24:11,730
were more likely to generalize
negatively towards the odors

520
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:14,160
than the ones that were
in the control treatment.

521
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,510
In other words, we could produce
a negative cognitive bias

522
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:21,690
in bees as a result of
this stressful event.

523
00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:23,910
And this was the first evidence

524
00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:27,330
that an insect had something

525
00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:29,280
that was a correlate of emotion, right?

526
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,220
We're using a cognitive bias
test, which is really strict.

527
00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:33,360
And the reason that it's so strict

528
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,390
is that it's actually asking
the animal to make a judgment.

529
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:39,990
It's divorcing the animal's behavior

530
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:42,420
from any kind of instinctual reaction

531
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:43,980
they may have to the food

532
00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:46,230
or the odors themselves.

533
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:50,100
And really looking at how
they generalize to something

534
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:54,180
and how that generalization
is affected by an event.

535
00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:57,000
So it's quite a strict way of looking,

536
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,540
an objective way of looking
at emotion in animals.

537
00:25:00,540 --> 00:25:01,560
And sure enough, you see it,

538
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,540
the first person to
show this cognitive bias

539
00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:04,890
was someone studying mice.

540
00:25:04,890 --> 00:25:06,480
They found it in mice of course.

541
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,190
If you've studied it now in birds,

542
00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:10,200
in all kinds of mammals,
you see cognitive biases.

543
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:11,640
It's quite common now.

544
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,340
But the work that Melissa and
I did was the first evidence

545
00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:15,330
in an insect,

546
00:25:15,330 --> 00:25:16,890
and it's been of course,
studied, you know,

547
00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:18,810
by several others since then.

548
00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:21,060
You can produce a positive
cognitive bias in bees

549
00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:23,430
apparently by feeding them sugar.

550
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:24,630
Though I'd like to repeat those

551
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:27,900
I have to say those same
experiments that Lars Chittka did.

552
00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:32,700
I'm nonetheless, I mean, I
guess that he can produce

553
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,473
a positive cognitive bias too.

554
00:25:36,180 --> 00:25:39,330
- And there's something you said earlier,

555
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:43,290
you talked about sentence
in relation to the animal

556
00:25:43,290 --> 00:25:45,954
wanting to avoid harm

557
00:25:45,954 --> 00:25:50,820
and encourage positive,

558
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:54,660
but surely that would fit a
definition of all life, right?

559
00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:58,083
It wants to grow, survive, reproduce.

560
00:25:58,980 --> 00:26:01,473
- Well, yes, you're right.

561
00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:05,463
Life does not want to die.

562
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:10,280
So yes, I mean I think...

563
00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:13,020
I think in general, you know,

564
00:26:13,020 --> 00:26:17,730
things by putting these stresses

565
00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:19,230
on things that, you know,

566
00:26:19,230 --> 00:26:23,010
that have every reaction
against them, I think, you know,

567
00:26:23,010 --> 00:26:25,730
against those stressors, I think...

568
00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:31,730
I mean is that, I just think
that we're causing harm

569
00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:35,670
when we do that.

570
00:26:35,670 --> 00:26:38,520
And I mean, some of
course can be justified.

571
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,950
If a mosquito is, you know,

572
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:44,310
biting you, you can, I
mean, it does everything

573
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:46,410
to avoid being being hit.

574
00:26:46,410 --> 00:26:51,150
But you know, it's understandable
why people want to hit it.

575
00:26:51,150 --> 00:26:54,412
But anyway, it's a very, you know?

576
00:26:54,412 --> 00:26:59,310
So Jerry's assessment of
the situation was much more,

577
00:26:59,310 --> 00:27:03,570
you know, thought out then mine.

578
00:27:03,570 --> 00:27:06,390
I mean my, I just think that life is life

579
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:08,193
and we should respect it.

580
00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:10,920
- Yeah, I mean I think that
there's important things

581
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,060
to be thought about there.

582
00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:16,410
I mean regarding, it seems
like the science on sentiency,

583
00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:19,353
we still might not have
entirely decided what it is,

584
00:27:20,190 --> 00:27:24,510
but you know, it seems like
we're still gathering research.

585
00:27:24,510 --> 00:27:26,280
Gera said she wanted to repeat some,

586
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,430
but I think we can all
be clear that, you know,

587
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:34,430
life, animal, plant, insect,
you know, most of it wants,

588
00:27:35,670 --> 00:27:39,840
it is sensitive and
capable of being harmed.

589
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,010
And at least from a moral perspective,

590
00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:48,390
the question is, you know, what
we do with that information.

591
00:27:48,390 --> 00:27:51,940
You know, if we know that other lives

592
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:56,970
that we share the world
with want to avoid harm,

593
00:27:56,970 --> 00:27:59,190
avoid pain, what do we
do with those ideas?

594
00:27:59,190 --> 00:28:02,700
You know, perhaps it's
incumbent upon us who have,

595
00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:06,900
you know, greater moral
faculties to, you know,

596
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:08,940
choose to live more
peacefully with one another.

597
00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:11,580
That's something you can't
really do in the animal kingdom,

598
00:28:11,580 --> 00:28:14,220
but humans can choose to live

599
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,610
at least sometimes more peaceably

600
00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:18,840
with the rest of the world.
- Sentience is is quite

601
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,190
a specific definition though.

602
00:28:20,190 --> 00:28:22,530
So sentience is emotion.

603
00:28:22,530 --> 00:28:25,470
And I think it's interesting
to think about it again

604
00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:27,660
with respect and make it
quite an objective thing.

605
00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:30,030
It's an emotion is a,

606
00:28:30,030 --> 00:28:32,670
and essentially what we
showed in this manuscript

607
00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:35,040
with these bees is that they change state

608
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,040
when they're under duress
of some kind, right?

609
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:39,060
They can change state

610
00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:40,950
and that change in state then allows them

611
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:43,140
to make decisions in a different way.

612
00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:45,780
And essentially that's
what I think is the same

613
00:28:45,780 --> 00:28:46,980
is true of our emotion, right?

614
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:48,780
Our emotion is a way of helping us

615
00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:52,413
to basically produce a kind of,

616
00:28:53,490 --> 00:28:56,879
gain control on decision making

617
00:28:56,879 --> 00:29:01,879
that is contextual to
experience that we have

618
00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:06,480
in a sort of temporarily local way, right?

619
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,930
So I think that emotion,

620
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:13,410
certainly, I wouldn't be
comfortable as a scientist,

621
00:29:13,410 --> 00:29:14,670
you know, looking at a plant and saying

622
00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:16,320
that a plant has emotion.

623
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,780
Because for me, I think that

624
00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:19,904
what we see, it's okay.
- No, I didn't mean

625
00:29:19,904 --> 00:29:21,180
to suggest that.
- Okay.

626
00:29:21,180 --> 00:29:23,100
What we see as an emotion or sentience

627
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:24,720
is something that's produced by a,

628
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,400
basically by a brain, right?

629
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,550
And that brain itself is
actually being modified

630
00:29:29,550 --> 00:29:33,300
by other physiological variables

631
00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:36,120
which are affecting the
state of the organism.

632
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,010
So that could be hunger,
that could be tiredness,

633
00:29:41,010 --> 00:29:43,983
it could be fear.

634
00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:47,250
- How simple can a brain get

635
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:48,750
before it's no longer a brain?

636
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,110
- I actually teach a lecture on that.

637
00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:56,880
So the hydra has,

638
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,190
you know, allegedly neurons,
they're kind of, you know,

639
00:29:59,190 --> 00:30:02,340
they're not really neurons
in the sense that we know,

640
00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:04,350
we have in our sort of
sophisticated brain,

641
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:08,730
but there are quite primitive animals

642
00:30:08,730 --> 00:30:09,900
that have neurons.

643
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,090
They don't have a centralized brain,

644
00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:14,493
they have a nerve net or a nerve ring.

645
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:17,040
And I imagine,

646
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,808
I don't know if anybody's shown that they,

647
00:30:18,808 --> 00:30:20,430
they produce a change in state

648
00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:21,300
and you can affect, you know,

649
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:22,710
the way a jellyfish is gonna react.

650
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:24,148
That that one, I don't think anyone,

651
00:30:24,148 --> 00:30:26,610
that's for somebody in
the audience to go and do.

652
00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:28,620
So you need a summer experiment

653
00:30:28,620 --> 00:30:30,660
and maybe you can change
the state of a jellyfish

654
00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:32,970
and see if you can
produce a cognitive bias.

655
00:30:32,970 --> 00:30:35,420
They can learn so even animals that have

656
00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:37,290
these nerve rings can do

657
00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:38,990
some very basic forms of learning.

658
00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:43,530
But I would say they don't have the same,

659
00:30:43,530 --> 00:30:45,900
I wouldn't say that a
jellyfish could generalize

660
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:47,040
necessarily, you know,

661
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,130
in the same way that an animal

662
00:30:50,130 --> 00:30:52,380
with a higher brain would,

663
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:55,830
but even a nematode can
learn and generalize.

664
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:58,770
- So, you know, where do we draw the line,

665
00:30:58,770 --> 00:31:02,400
you know, in these
definitions of sentience?

666
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,823
Or is it possible to
have a binary (mumbles)?

667
00:31:05,823 --> 00:31:08,080
- I think you could, I think
you could carefully define it,

668
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,100
that, you know, emotion
as a change in state

669
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:13,350
that alters judgment.

670
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:15,030
And then you would just
have to do, you know,

671
00:31:15,030 --> 00:31:17,953
appropriate tests to
show that some animals

672
00:31:17,953 --> 00:31:21,330
don't exhibit that behavior

673
00:31:21,330 --> 00:31:23,880
if you wanted to be quite
precise about the way

674
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,103
that you apply a motion to animal life.

675
00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:30,900
But a lot of invertebrates
have changes in state, right?

676
00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:35,490
That are affected by their
external life or by stress

677
00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:37,920
or by other things that
then affect their behavior,

678
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,363
even instinctual behaviors.

679
00:31:41,550 --> 00:31:43,417
But the really strict definition

680
00:31:43,417 --> 00:31:46,830
is to look at something
that involves cognition

681
00:31:46,830 --> 00:31:48,753
or generalization where you are,

682
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:51,690
you learn about something

683
00:31:51,690 --> 00:31:53,610
and you generalize to a novel stimulus.

684
00:31:53,610 --> 00:31:55,470
Your brain is capable of allowing you

685
00:31:55,470 --> 00:31:58,500
to form an abstract rule

686
00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:01,413
that you then apply to a novel situation.

687
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:04,043
- Yeah, I mean, philosophically,

688
00:32:04,043 --> 00:32:06,360
I mean, I did not mean to suggest at all

689
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,340
that plants are sentient,

690
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:11,670
but when philosophers talk about sentience

691
00:32:11,670 --> 00:32:12,708
in relation to animals,

692
00:32:12,708 --> 00:32:16,410
I mean they define it
in terms of pleasure,

693
00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:19,980
pain, fear, anxiety, you know, feelings.

694
00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:23,100
But also, you know, most people begin

695
00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:25,230
with animals and birds,

696
00:32:25,230 --> 00:32:28,860
and now reptiles, fish, cephalopods,

697
00:32:28,860 --> 00:32:31,800
and I think insects is the next,

698
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,550
is the next question where we're waiting

699
00:32:35,550 --> 00:32:37,050
for the scientific answers

700
00:32:37,050 --> 00:32:39,987
on whether we think we can say that.

701
00:32:39,987 --> 00:32:41,373
And it seems like maybe.

702
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,947
- I think Lars Chittka is now,

703
00:32:43,947 --> 00:32:46,710
and a group of scientists
in the US have decided

704
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:49,623
that insects are sentient, so.

705
00:32:51,420 --> 00:32:52,920
But you know, I'd be interested

706
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,300
to hear from the audience a bit about

707
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:58,083
whether they think that
insects are sentient or not.

708
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,963
- So given our evolving
understanding of sentience,

709
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,503
when, if ever, is it okay to squish a bug?

710
00:33:09,332 --> 00:33:12,332
(everyone chuckles)

711
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:16,920
- Who are you asking?

712
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,320
- Clair, do you want to say?

713
00:33:19,692 --> 00:33:21,150
- Well, I don't know.

714
00:33:21,150 --> 00:33:23,763
I think that that's, you know?

715
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,650
I think the question of
whether one can squish a bug

716
00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:30,090
is really a greater question

717
00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:32,340
of how we want to live
in the world, right?

718
00:33:32,340 --> 00:33:36,270
And you know, a lot of other cultures

719
00:33:36,270 --> 00:33:38,430
practice reverence for life, right?

720
00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:39,750
And that's all life.

721
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:42,060
And I think if you think about the fact

722
00:33:42,060 --> 00:33:44,268
that insects are in decline,

723
00:33:44,268 --> 00:33:48,240
that is problematic for human beings,

724
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,600
I think developing the
ideas that actually,

725
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,643
other than human life matters.

726
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,990
Like, okay, if the bug has malaria

727
00:33:57,990 --> 00:34:00,090
and you know, that's then self-defense.

728
00:34:00,090 --> 00:34:01,854
Okay but you know,

729
00:34:01,854 --> 00:34:05,910
if in general, should we
be trying to find a way

730
00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:07,740
to live more peaceably

731
00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:09,870
with the rest of the world?

732
00:34:09,870 --> 00:34:14,870
I think so, if only because
it's in our best interest

733
00:34:15,930 --> 00:34:16,763
to do so.

734
00:34:16,763 --> 00:34:18,330
I mean, I'm not an expert on insects,

735
00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:21,300
but my limited research told me that

736
00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:26,300
75% of all agricultural crops
are pollinated by insects.

737
00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:30,930
And that actually, if we don't like foster

738
00:34:30,930 --> 00:34:32,493
our relationships with the insect world,

739
00:34:32,493 --> 00:34:34,710
that actually we are going to be in terms

740
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:37,530
of food systems in real problems.

741
00:34:37,530 --> 00:34:42,180
So yeah, I think there's
not a immediate answer

742
00:34:42,180 --> 00:34:44,160
to should you should or not do that.

743
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,080
I'm not a...

744
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,270
I think avoiding pain is something,

745
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:52,830
and suffering is something we should be

746
00:34:52,830 --> 00:34:55,473
generally avoiding if we can.

747
00:34:56,490 --> 00:34:58,390
And that's just how we should approach

748
00:34:59,670 --> 00:35:01,720
relationships with the rest of the world.

749
00:35:04,110 --> 00:35:06,420
- Do you think-
- Well, I agree totally.

750
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:08,240
I think we need to have...

751
00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:11,100
We need to respect life.

752
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:14,460
And even, I mean, as biologists,

753
00:35:14,460 --> 00:35:17,730
we often end up, you know,

754
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:20,370
killing things for a study.

755
00:35:20,370 --> 00:35:24,450
But when we do that, we
need to at least acknowledge

756
00:35:24,450 --> 00:35:28,350
what we're doing and think
about, just think about it.

757
00:35:28,350 --> 00:35:31,290
And we kill a mosquito and I mean,

758
00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:33,990
I've killed, you know, a lot of mosquitoes

759
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:36,990
and I've, you know, ticks,

760
00:35:36,990 --> 00:35:39,213
you know, they're kinda gross.

761
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,680
But I think they're fascinating though.

762
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,160
When you look at mites,
which are basically ticks,

763
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,680
I mean, they're just fascinating animals.

764
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,550
So I think the more we understand

765
00:35:53,550 --> 00:35:57,870
and the more then we can, you know,

766
00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:01,620
engender respect for
what we're looking at.

767
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:05,910
And I think, yeah, it's really important

768
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:08,913
that we learn to respect
the world we live in.

769
00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:15,023
- So a question for you, Gery.

770
00:36:17,340 --> 00:36:20,800
I'm interested thinking about how perhaps

771
00:36:21,690 --> 00:36:24,840
perceptions of all of this varies

772
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,687
for things like social insects

773
00:36:27,687 --> 00:36:31,080
and the super organism
versus the individual.

774
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,240
Do you have any thoughts on that?

775
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:35,040
- In terms of?

776
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,340
- Well, if the decision making capability

777
00:36:38,340 --> 00:36:39,240
of the superorganism,

778
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,310
if that degree is any kind of confers

779
00:36:41,310 --> 00:36:42,595
any degree of sentience

780
00:36:42,595 --> 00:36:44,700
or how we treat it differently?

781
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,880
- So the person I worked with
as a postdoc, Brian Smith,

782
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,040
used to like to point out to the,

783
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,270
when he was at conferences,

784
00:36:51,270 --> 00:36:54,720
to mammalian neurophysiologist
that there as many neurons

785
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,483
in a bee colony as in a mammalian brain.

786
00:36:59,478 --> 00:37:01,820
And they're working together to, you know,

787
00:37:01,820 --> 00:37:04,833
to accomplish a quite an amazing feat.

788
00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:10,560
So it does, I mean, again,
I'm biased 'cause I like bees,

789
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,340
but I would say they're a
higher form of life for sure.

790
00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:17,460
They, you know, they
farm, they collect food,

791
00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:19,863
they look after their
young, they produce milk,

792
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:23,493
they have, you know,
quite a dance language.

793
00:37:24,510 --> 00:37:25,860
They have many traits that, you know,

794
00:37:25,860 --> 00:37:28,170
we might consider some of
our higher achievements,

795
00:37:28,170 --> 00:37:29,190
the social insects.

796
00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:33,723
So yeah, I have a lot of
respect for social insects.

797
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,313
I mean yeah,

798
00:37:39,660 --> 00:37:41,850
and I would encourage
anyone in the audience here

799
00:37:41,850 --> 00:37:43,860
to learn what you can about them

800
00:37:43,860 --> 00:37:44,760
'cause they're fascinating,

801
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,613
ants, bees, wasps, all amazing.

802
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:56,240
- Okay, so next general question

803
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,830
for all of you is,

804
00:37:58,830 --> 00:38:00,963
should we be eating insects?

805
00:38:05,261 --> 00:38:08,460
- I think, I guess there's two

806
00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:10,980
kind of ethical answers to that.

807
00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:13,770
I mean, some people would
say that eating insects

808
00:38:13,770 --> 00:38:17,820
is better in terms of
environmental footprint

809
00:38:17,820 --> 00:38:22,820
than eating animals and mammals.

810
00:38:23,610 --> 00:38:27,690
But I mean, I think we
have to ask the question

811
00:38:27,690 --> 00:38:31,920
as to whether industrially
farming anything

812
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,890
is really in our best interest.

813
00:38:34,890 --> 00:38:36,810
I mean we are industrially farming them

814
00:38:36,810 --> 00:38:39,720
in the trillions already, right?

815
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:42,990
Which is a huge quantity of animals

816
00:38:42,990 --> 00:38:47,280
we're just choosing to
use for our own benefit.

817
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,950
And I don't know, I think
the science isn't, you know?

818
00:38:51,950 --> 00:38:53,820
If you scale that up,

819
00:38:53,820 --> 00:38:58,800
is that environmentally still
better than not eating cows?

820
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,990
I don't know, but I mean,

821
00:39:00,990 --> 00:39:04,110
to pose it differently,
do we need to eat them?

822
00:39:04,110 --> 00:39:06,180
Like do we need to eat them to live?

823
00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:07,860
I would say no.

824
00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:12,363
So if there, since there
are other alternatives,

825
00:39:14,130 --> 00:39:17,730
I'm gonna go ahead and say
it's not morally necessary

826
00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:18,630
to do so.

827
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:20,523
So maybe we don't have to.

828
00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:24,153
- I'll agree again.

829
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:28,020
I mean, the thing is we
have the capability now

830
00:39:28,020 --> 00:39:30,810
to make whatever food we want.

831
00:39:30,810 --> 00:39:34,440
And so we were just
talking about this earlier.

832
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,440
Why, you know, why are we
relying on a technology that was,

833
00:39:40,290 --> 00:39:43,410
you know, that we developed
farming, we developed,

834
00:39:43,410 --> 00:39:45,330
this is gonna maybe be unpopular,

835
00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:47,400
it's certainly unpopular with my family,

836
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,620
but farming, you know, was developed a,

837
00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:51,570
you know, centuries ago.

838
00:39:51,570 --> 00:39:55,830
Do we really need to keep farming going

839
00:39:55,830 --> 00:39:57,870
when we have alternatives

840
00:39:57,870 --> 00:40:00,120
and we're developing alternatives

841
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,080
and that are more efficient,
that are, you know,

842
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,943
more environmentally friendly?

843
00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:10,500
And I think I feel like
focusing on that alternatives

844
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:12,640
makes more sense in my mind

845
00:40:13,996 --> 00:40:16,413
than farming insects.

846
00:40:17,730 --> 00:40:19,354
- I have a very different viewpoint.

847
00:40:19,354 --> 00:40:20,610
- Yes, please, yes.

848
00:40:20,610 --> 00:40:22,470
- I would say yes we do.

849
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:27,060
And I would say that we
can't afford to stop farming

850
00:40:27,060 --> 00:40:28,620
because we need protein.

851
00:40:28,620 --> 00:40:32,700
And that's the problem with currently

852
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:34,350
with the foods that we have

853
00:40:34,350 --> 00:40:38,460
is that we don't have enough
types of sufficient proteins

854
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:42,120
for the human population on this planet

855
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,913
and we are hungry for protein.

856
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,980
I think that insects are basically

857
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:53,040
a type of protein potentially.

858
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,450
They could be used both to
feed animals that we eat,

859
00:40:57,450 --> 00:41:02,280
but they could also be a very
good source of animal protein

860
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,140
that people could eat.

861
00:41:04,140 --> 00:41:08,820
And that is relatively low
impact to the industrial farming

862
00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:11,580
that's done for higher level animals

863
00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:13,800
that produce, I mean a lot of waste,

864
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,150
that actually cost a lot in
terms of the amount of energy

865
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:20,820
and food per unit that
you have to feed them

866
00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:22,560
to produce their tissues.

867
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,080
So I have a completely
different viewpoint.

868
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,510
I really don't think that we
can afford not to eat insects

869
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:30,810
or to farm insects or to not farm animals

870
00:41:30,810 --> 00:41:35,460
until we have alternatives to animal meat

871
00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:40,320
that are actually as nutritious
and as abundant as animals.

872
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,100
we won't, even though all of
us have the best intentions,

873
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:45,180
you know, to be vegetarians,

874
00:41:45,180 --> 00:41:46,227
and I've been, I have to say,

875
00:41:46,227 --> 00:41:47,998
and I'm gonna confess
I've been a vegetarian

876
00:41:47,998 --> 00:41:49,980
for 30 years now.

877
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:51,870
So I try very hard,

878
00:41:51,870 --> 00:41:55,170
but I also understand now

879
00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:59,550
the importance of eating
protein in a way personally,

880
00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:01,260
but I'm also a professional who studies

881
00:42:01,260 --> 00:42:03,510
the nutritional biology of insects

882
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:06,390
and have been exposed to understanding

883
00:42:06,390 --> 00:42:08,880
nutrition of animals through my research.

884
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,153
So yeah, my opinion's
the complete opposite.

885
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,060
- Do you think that there would be,

886
00:42:15,060 --> 00:42:17,730
if we weren't industrially farming animals

887
00:42:17,730 --> 00:42:21,360
who after all you have to grow
the food to feed the food,

888
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,940
they're actually a
protein system in reverse.

889
00:42:23,940 --> 00:42:27,600
You have to feed them vegetables
so that they can survive

890
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,043
and then they take up a huge
more land, water, space.

891
00:42:33,210 --> 00:42:37,890
And you know, if we weren't
indeed farming industrially

892
00:42:37,890 --> 00:42:39,630
and in some cases not intensively,

893
00:42:39,630 --> 00:42:43,140
actually like spaciously in Brazil,

894
00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:45,510
animals are farmed non-intensively

895
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:46,830
and takes up enormous amount of land.

896
00:42:46,830 --> 00:42:48,780
It's part of the deforestation problem.

897
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,656
I mean, if we were
instead devoting that land

898
00:42:52,656 --> 00:42:57,656
to raising vegetables for us all to eat

899
00:42:58,140 --> 00:43:00,813
or, you know, growing things differently,

900
00:43:01,830 --> 00:43:04,740
do we not think there might
be enough food for enough,

901
00:43:04,740 --> 00:43:07,080
for amount of people on the planet?

902
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,970
Plus, isn't it at least partly

903
00:43:08,970 --> 00:43:11,580
a consumption problem per capita?

904
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:13,680
You know, in the west
we consume much more.

905
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:14,790
- Well, that's part of the problem,

906
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:17,550
and I would agree with you
that there's a lot of waste

907
00:43:17,550 --> 00:43:21,270
of animal tissue and a lot
of waste in animal farming.

908
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:24,933
So I'm not defending farming
as it is in that respect.

909
00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:29,070
But I would say that given the number

910
00:43:29,070 --> 00:43:30,750
of people on the planet

911
00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:32,850
and our growing population,

912
00:43:32,850 --> 00:43:34,680
that the plant foods that we have

913
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,360
are just simply not sufficient

914
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,760
to meet the demand for
the protein that we need.

915
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:42,270
The closest that we have is soy.

916
00:43:42,270 --> 00:43:44,970
Soy is a, in terms of
its amino acid profile,

917
00:43:44,970 --> 00:43:48,600
is very close to animal tissue,
which is why it's so used

918
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,300
in cattle farming or in
farming of any other animals,

919
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:56,300
is that it's conversion from
plant tissue into animal tissue

920
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,210
is more simple because the
ratios of the essential

921
00:44:00,210 --> 00:44:03,690
amino acids are more closely
matched to our own tissues.

922
00:44:03,690 --> 00:44:07,110
But that's not true of
other plant tissues.

923
00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:10,200
And a lot of the other plants that we eat

924
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,680
either don't have a high
enough concentration of protein

925
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,340
or the amino acid ratio is
just not closely matched

926
00:44:17,340 --> 00:44:18,720
to what's in our tissues.

927
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,980
So it really requires quite a lot more,

928
00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:25,050
for you to eat quite a
lot more of those things

929
00:44:25,050 --> 00:44:27,660
to meet your needs for
protein than you would

930
00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:31,143
if you were eating a much
smaller amount of animal tissue.

931
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:36,270
- Wonderful, thank you very much.

932
00:44:36,270 --> 00:44:40,320
So at this point, I'd
like to go to the audience

933
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,160
and take some some questions
from you to our panelists.

934
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,700
Either someone specifically
or the whole panel.

935
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:49,950
So we have a microphone
if, yeah, if you can.

936
00:44:51,570 --> 00:44:53,920
Yeah, we'll start just
where the microphone is.

937
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:58,080
- [Spectator] Hi, I was
just thinking about disgust

938
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,070
and thinking about it being
culturally constructed

939
00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:07,070
and when I think about why
insects are revolting to some,

940
00:45:07,830 --> 00:45:09,690
they are associated with death.

941
00:45:09,690 --> 00:45:13,170
Fairly explicitly, they decompose.

942
00:45:13,170 --> 00:45:16,470
You find a dead creature and
it'll be covered in bugs.

943
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:21,210
And I think that that
association that we make,

944
00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:23,340
I think that is fairly universal

945
00:45:23,340 --> 00:45:26,460
and I mean I think humans
will always sort of feel

946
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:29,100
negatively about that
association with death.

947
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:33,000
So I wondered if you could talk
about insects as decomposers

948
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,633
as being connected to
the bigger idea of death.

949
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:42,900
- I kind of wanna say that
I think at least our ideas

950
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:45,810
about death are culturally
constructed as well though.

951
00:45:45,810 --> 00:45:48,090
I spent quite a bit of
time in Latin America

952
00:45:48,090 --> 00:45:52,080
and their ideas around death
are quite different from ours

953
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,080
and have much more sense
of celebration of death.

954
00:45:59,070 --> 00:46:01,410
Yet insects don't immediately
speak to me of death,

955
00:46:01,410 --> 00:46:02,820
but I'm not a biologist.

956
00:46:02,820 --> 00:46:05,553
So perhaps they do to you?

957
00:46:06,690 --> 00:46:10,050
- I think we have, I know we
have instinctual reactions

958
00:46:10,050 --> 00:46:13,530
to the smells, the putrescine
and some of those smells

959
00:46:13,530 --> 00:46:16,650
that are produced by
rotting carcasses, right?

960
00:46:16,650 --> 00:46:18,720
So those compounds, if you smell,

961
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:22,383
you know, basically, you will
have a retching response.

962
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,370
So it could be that,
you know, we associate,

963
00:46:26,370 --> 00:46:27,539
there are many different things

964
00:46:27,539 --> 00:46:28,590
when you have a rotting carcass.

965
00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:30,480
You've got all the bacteria
that are, you know,

966
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:31,950
breaking down those tissues

967
00:46:31,950 --> 00:46:33,990
plus the insects that are
carrying those things there

968
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:35,340
and then using them, right?

969
00:46:36,450 --> 00:46:38,300
But I mean the...

970
00:46:40,140 --> 00:46:44,340
I'm fascinated by the
animals that eat carcasses,

971
00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:46,620
it's amazing, an amazing
job they're doing, right?

972
00:46:46,620 --> 00:46:47,730
We would be in a lot of trouble

973
00:46:47,730 --> 00:46:49,140
if we didn't have decomposers.

974
00:46:49,140 --> 00:46:52,860
But yeah, in terms of their
sort of attractiveness,

975
00:46:52,860 --> 00:46:55,950
they're not, you know,
butterflies or bees.

976
00:46:55,950 --> 00:46:56,800
It's a bit gross.

977
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,270
- Well, butterflies are
partial to a carcass as well.

978
00:47:00,270 --> 00:47:01,140
- Are they?

979
00:47:01,140 --> 00:47:03,000
- They're just taking salt, so
they're not breaking it down.

980
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,290
- Right.

981
00:47:04,290 --> 00:47:06,930
- Well spiders aren't
partial to carcasses at all,

982
00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:09,600
but people are still
pretty revolted by spiders

983
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,063
for whatever reason, but yeah.

984
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,140
But that was...

985
00:47:20,220 --> 00:47:22,080
- [Spectator] Hiya, I'm just wondering,

986
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,900
why do you think people hate cockroaches?

987
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:29,040
Because even a lot of
people who don't like,

988
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,010
who are fine with insects
just really hate cockroaches.

989
00:47:32,010 --> 00:47:34,440
They don't bite, they don't have diseases,

990
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,930
you can get them even in clean places.

991
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:38,400
Like, I don't like cockroaches,

992
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,390
but I don't know why,

993
00:47:39,390 --> 00:47:43,020
whereas I don't mind like
most of the other stuff,

994
00:47:43,020 --> 00:47:46,546
but I really wanna kill a cockroach.

995
00:47:46,546 --> 00:47:48,150
And I think other people too,

996
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:49,680
So like why do you think,

997
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,290
where has that learned thing come from?

998
00:47:52,290 --> 00:47:54,750
- That's actually a fascinating question.

999
00:47:54,750 --> 00:47:59,100
You know, we were, for many
years we were in Honolulu

1000
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:04,100
and you know, the cockroaches
would come in under the door,

1001
00:48:05,550 --> 00:48:09,660
like in, you know, loads
would come under the door

1002
00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:13,650
and my husband would get up
in the middle of the night

1003
00:48:13,650 --> 00:48:14,880
and I'd just hear, you know,

1004
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,970
where everyone's peaceful
and then boom, boom, boom,

1005
00:48:17,970 --> 00:48:20,280
you know, with the cockroaches.

1006
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:25,280
So they tend to be in the dark,

1007
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:26,760
which is partly, you know,

1008
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,410
why people are worried about spiders.

1009
00:48:28,410 --> 00:48:29,550
At least that's my feeling.

1010
00:48:29,550 --> 00:48:32,430
They move fast, they're in the dark,

1011
00:48:32,430 --> 00:48:34,620
they're in dark places

1012
00:48:34,620 --> 00:48:39,620
and they don't, you know,

1013
00:48:39,630 --> 00:48:41,040
kind of like what Gery was saying,

1014
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,260
they don't smell good.

1015
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:44,100
- Yeah, they don't smell good

1016
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:45,660
and it's because they can recycle

1017
00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:47,610
their uric acid into,

1018
00:48:47,610 --> 00:48:51,090
or their, think it's uric acid into urea.

1019
00:48:51,090 --> 00:48:53,220
So they can basically,
they're extremely efficient

1020
00:48:53,220 --> 00:48:56,520
at recycling nitrogen
and so they smell bad

1021
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,523
and they kind of leave
a kind of nasty smell.

1022
00:49:01,020 --> 00:49:03,090
- I'm kind of fascinated
by cockroaches actually.

1023
00:49:03,090 --> 00:49:05,100
I mean I hear they're
like one of the few things

1024
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:07,950
that would survive a nuclear
blast, which is like,

1025
00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:09,150
I mean that and Twinkies.

1026
00:49:09,150 --> 00:49:11,343
I mean, so, you know, really interesting.

1027
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,250
But also I do think there is,

1028
00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:16,770
I mean I don't know if
it's culturally constructed

1029
00:49:16,770 --> 00:49:19,170
or if the cultural we have praise on it,

1030
00:49:19,170 --> 00:49:23,120
but I mean the metamorphosis,
I mean the story of a man who,

1031
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,280
at least in the version I read
becomes a cockroach, right?

1032
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,060
And then even his whole family
who he's given his whole life

1033
00:49:30,060 --> 00:49:34,233
to taking care of them,
you know, will him to die.

1034
00:49:35,130 --> 00:49:37,687
And, you know, I dunno
if you grew up watching

1035
00:49:37,687 --> 00:49:42,687
"Men In Black" where the
basically the baddy is a cockroach

1036
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:45,990
and you know, that's, you know?

1037
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:50,310
And I think that plays
on our fear of them.

1038
00:49:50,310 --> 00:49:52,290
So yeah, but I mean that's interesting

1039
00:49:52,290 --> 00:49:54,930
because I don't, do we
have them in this country?

1040
00:49:54,930 --> 00:49:56,580
I'm not sure I've actually
ever seen a cockroach

1041
00:49:56,580 --> 00:49:58,380
now that I think about it, but you know?

1042
00:49:58,380 --> 00:50:00,090
We do. Okay, alright.

1043
00:50:00,090 --> 00:50:03,600
- Yeah, there's a few species
which have become cosmopolitan

1044
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,880
being moved around by people
associated with human.

1045
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,590
But there are also some
ones that you can find out

1046
00:50:07,590 --> 00:50:09,060
in the wild as well in the UK.

1047
00:50:09,060 --> 00:50:11,643
But less associated
with being synanthropic.

1048
00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:15,330
I will just add as well that
many species of cockroach

1049
00:50:15,330 --> 00:50:18,210
as they're feeding on detritus

1050
00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:21,150
will leave a trail of
feces and spread bacteria.

1051
00:50:21,150 --> 00:50:23,400
So they is an association
there with potentially

1052
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:24,700
with disease transmission.

1053
00:50:28,650 --> 00:50:32,340
- They also have quite sharp
hairs and spines on their legs.

1054
00:50:32,340 --> 00:50:33,510
- Yeah, yeah.
- They're quite actually,

1055
00:50:33,510 --> 00:50:35,790
if you try to pick them up, it hurts.

1056
00:50:35,790 --> 00:50:37,680
I don't know if you've ever tried that,

1057
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,900
like your common cockroach basically

1058
00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:42,090
because that's a defensive
mechanism probably,

1059
00:50:42,090 --> 00:50:43,390
these hairs on their legs.

1060
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,530
- [Spectator] I was wondering
if there's something around

1061
00:50:49,530 --> 00:50:53,310
the history of where we
think bugs come from in that,

1062
00:50:53,310 --> 00:50:55,230
to my understanding, many,
(spectator clears throat)

1063
00:50:55,230 --> 00:50:59,100
many of the Europeans
thought that cockroaches,

1064
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:03,510
bugs, flies, maggots, that kind of thing,

1065
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:08,510
all the stuff that most
people would agree are gross,

1066
00:51:09,540 --> 00:51:14,540
they thought that they
spontaneously were formed by mess,

1067
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,150
by waste, by dead bodies, et cetera.

1068
00:51:18,150 --> 00:51:21,810
So if we think that these
things are sort of born

1069
00:51:21,810 --> 00:51:25,653
from stuff that we have
a natural aversion to,

1070
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,390
maybe that's part of the cultural biases

1071
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:32,280
we have against insects.

1072
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,550
And the way I was brought up,

1073
00:51:35,550 --> 00:51:38,010
I was taught that they're
like there to help clean up

1074
00:51:38,010 --> 00:51:39,210
all the mess and if we didn't have them,

1075
00:51:39,210 --> 00:51:42,540
we'd all be like, you know,
piled high with bodies and waste

1076
00:51:42,540 --> 00:51:43,710
and all kind of nasty things.

1077
00:51:43,710 --> 00:51:46,920
So I'm wondering if
there's something around

1078
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,910
the cultural history of where
we thought they come from

1079
00:51:50,910 --> 00:51:53,553
versus rather seeing
them as helpful cleaners.

1080
00:51:55,170 --> 00:51:56,523
And I also have a,

1081
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,540
I wanna ask a dumb question,

1082
00:52:00,540 --> 00:52:03,210
but I'm hoping it's in a smart way.

1083
00:52:03,210 --> 00:52:06,180
Why do flies fly into the
window again and again and again

1084
00:52:06,180 --> 00:52:08,370
and ignore the open door?

1085
00:52:08,370 --> 00:52:10,500
I feel at the moment, I feel
like with summer coming,

1086
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:12,870
I'm just a doorman for flies constantly

1087
00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:14,943
trying to get them out of the house.

1088
00:52:16,050 --> 00:52:17,700
So yeah, that's my dumb question.

1089
00:52:18,930 --> 00:52:20,670
- They don't have the visual resolution

1090
00:52:20,670 --> 00:52:22,740
to tell the pane of glass.

1091
00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:25,203
It's a much blurrier world for the fly.

1092
00:52:26,340 --> 00:52:30,690
So they can't see the difference

1093
00:52:30,690 --> 00:52:35,690
between your pane of
glass and the open doorway

1094
00:52:35,730 --> 00:52:36,680
right next to them.

1095
00:52:37,860 --> 00:52:39,720
- Does that mean if you
cover the plane of glass

1096
00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:42,030
and opened it, you know, with something,

1097
00:52:42,030 --> 00:52:43,260
they would go towards?

1098
00:52:43,260 --> 00:52:44,880
- Yeah, they would.

1099
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,580
They'll orient both towards
light and also toward,

1100
00:52:47,580 --> 00:52:49,293
and probably towards wind as well.

1101
00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:55,320
- And any thoughts on
the first part of that

1102
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,883
with the spontaneous
generation from putrid objects?

1103
00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:05,943
- I hadn't read.

1104
00:53:09,450 --> 00:53:11,130
I don't know, I think it's interesting.

1105
00:53:11,130 --> 00:53:13,200
- I guess it's kind of chicken
and egg as well, right?

1106
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,130
With is that association seen

1107
00:53:17,130 --> 00:53:20,070
and then the connotations come from that

1108
00:53:20,070 --> 00:53:24,807
or was it the insects were appearing?

1109
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:29,280
- [Spectator] So about
the cognitive bias essay

1110
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:30,990
you talked about earlier.

1111
00:53:30,990 --> 00:53:34,800
How do you eliminate the
possible individual variance

1112
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:38,205
in sensitivity to certain sort
of bitterness and sweetness?

1113
00:53:38,205 --> 00:53:39,993
- How do you reduce the?

1114
00:53:40,830 --> 00:53:42,840
- [Spectator] How do
you eliminate the effect

1115
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,700
of individual variation in sensitivity

1116
00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:46,293
to bitterness and sweetness?

1117
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,950
- Well, we keep track of
how well they learn the task

1118
00:53:49,950 --> 00:53:54,114
to start and we can keep track of,

1119
00:53:54,114 --> 00:53:55,710
you know, some of them
might be much better

1120
00:53:55,710 --> 00:53:56,910
at do doing that task.

1121
00:53:56,910 --> 00:53:59,850
I mean, we're also using very extreme

1122
00:53:59,850 --> 00:54:01,440
rewards and punishments.

1123
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,440
So the reward is quite good to a bee

1124
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,780
and the punishment is
quite strong, you know,

1125
00:54:06,780 --> 00:54:07,860
not very good tasting.

1126
00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:12,840
So that's hopefully helps
them to learn that task.

1127
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,340
That's a really easy task
for a honeybee to learn.

1128
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:17,730
If you basically you do a,

1129
00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:21,720
what's called a psudorandomization

1130
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:23,460
of the presentation of the trials

1131
00:54:23,460 --> 00:54:26,220
where they receive the
reward and the punishment

1132
00:54:26,220 --> 00:54:27,900
so that they can't
predict on any given trial

1133
00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:29,100
which one's coming.

1134
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:32,280
And then you look to see if
they learn the association

1135
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,030
and then in the case of a honeybee,

1136
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,850
we can train them to
extend their proboscis

1137
00:54:38,850 --> 00:54:40,620
to recognize an odor.

1138
00:54:40,620 --> 00:54:42,510
So we feed them, touch the antenna,

1139
00:54:42,510 --> 00:54:44,430
they put their mouth parts out

1140
00:54:44,430 --> 00:54:45,690
and within two or three trials,

1141
00:54:45,690 --> 00:54:47,190
a bee will have the mouth parts out

1142
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:49,980
when you present the odor that
is a signal of the reward.

1143
00:54:49,980 --> 00:54:52,800
So we can see very quickly
that they've learned it.

1144
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,600
And you can, you know, if you
give these bees 16 trials,

1145
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,180
eight of them were with reward
and eight with punishment,

1146
00:55:00,180 --> 00:55:01,590
by the end you can see very clearly

1147
00:55:01,590 --> 00:55:03,930
that they can distinguish
those two things.

1148
00:55:03,930 --> 00:55:05,190
So that when we're doing these tasks,

1149
00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:08,010
if we'd have animals
that don't learn at all,

1150
00:55:08,010 --> 00:55:10,380
we don't tend to include
them in the memory test

1151
00:55:10,380 --> 00:55:12,730
because we don't know
why they're not learning.

1152
00:55:13,650 --> 00:55:15,090
And again, we're trying
to give them a task

1153
00:55:15,090 --> 00:55:17,793
that is fairly simple for bees to do.

1154
00:55:23,250 --> 00:55:25,680
- [Spectator] Hi, Professor Gillespie,

1155
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,200
at the beginning you mentioned

1156
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,330
that students are children,

1157
00:55:30,330 --> 00:55:32,088
the more they learn about insects,

1158
00:55:32,088 --> 00:55:35,340
the more this disgust decreases.

1159
00:55:35,340 --> 00:55:38,820
The more increased,
approach behavior increases.

1160
00:55:38,820 --> 00:55:43,620
Yeah, so I was wondering
on a personal level,

1161
00:55:43,620 --> 00:55:48,620
if you three feel that
your particular knowledge

1162
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:50,430
about insects or arachnids

1163
00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:53,520
or anything has decreased your disgust

1164
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,170
and what the limit of that is?

1165
00:55:55,170 --> 00:55:56,910
Do you eat insects?

1166
00:55:56,910 --> 00:55:58,650
Have you eaten insects?

1167
00:55:58,650 --> 00:56:00,480
Do you feel that you are more likely

1168
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,030
to be willing to eat insects

1169
00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:05,790
now that you know lots
of things about them

1170
00:56:05,790 --> 00:56:10,790
or are more interested
in them generally anyway?

1171
00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:14,670
- Well, I think Cadburys
accepts that every bar

1172
00:56:14,670 --> 00:56:15,600
of chocolate will have,

1173
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,320
may have up to six insect legs in.

1174
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:20,670
So I think statistically,

1175
00:56:20,670 --> 00:56:22,670
everybody's here has eaten some insects.

1176
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:24,753
I think that is.

1177
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,840
You know, I don't think
I need to eat insects.

1178
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,040
So I'm not going to start
eating them as a choice,

1179
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,370
though I accept that
I will have eaten them

1180
00:56:37,370 --> 00:56:38,520
at different points.

1181
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,380
But I think learning
more about them, I mean,

1182
00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:43,140
I feel like I learned
quite a lot about bees,

1183
00:56:43,140 --> 00:56:44,970
which has appreciate, you know,

1184
00:56:44,970 --> 00:56:46,710
I already like bees.

1185
00:56:46,710 --> 00:56:50,070
But I feel like I know more about 'em now.

1186
00:56:50,070 --> 00:56:52,080
I didn't know they produce milk.

1187
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:53,570
So I feel like...

1188
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:56,367
I feel like the more
you know about insects,

1189
00:56:56,367 --> 00:56:58,080
the more you know about anything,

1190
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,043
the more reverence increases
towards other life.

1191
00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:07,800
- Yeah, I think that was,

1192
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:09,390
I mean it's an interesting question.

1193
00:57:09,390 --> 00:57:10,580
I think...

1194
00:57:12,060 --> 00:57:16,050
I think it is always the respect.

1195
00:57:16,050 --> 00:57:20,100
And I mean I think, it's been
so long ago since, you know,

1196
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:21,780
I started working on spiders

1197
00:57:21,780 --> 00:57:24,450
and I can't really remember

1198
00:57:24,450 --> 00:57:27,720
what I was thinking back then.

1199
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,090
But you know, certainly, you know,

1200
00:57:30,090 --> 00:57:34,140
going into some, you know, tropical areas,

1201
00:57:34,140 --> 00:57:37,033
learning what the diversity is,

1202
00:57:37,033 --> 00:57:42,033
you get a whole different
appreciation for, you know,

1203
00:57:42,976 --> 00:57:44,220
what is there.

1204
00:57:44,220 --> 00:57:47,280
I'm not sure about eating at all,

1205
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,020
but I think the big thing is really...

1206
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:56,850
Is respecting what, you
know, just understanding

1207
00:57:56,850 --> 00:57:59,860
and sufficiently to where you can really

1208
00:58:00,728 --> 00:58:05,728
respect what the life is
and what the diversity is.

1209
00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:09,780
I should say, it gets super complicated.

1210
00:58:09,780 --> 00:58:13,170
You know, again, I'm
coming from a perspective

1211
00:58:13,170 --> 00:58:14,580
working in Hawaii,

1212
00:58:14,580 --> 00:58:18,240
and Hawaii is, you know, it's inundated

1213
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,090
by all of these things
that are not native.

1214
00:58:21,090 --> 00:58:23,070
And so I've got a, you know,

1215
00:58:23,070 --> 00:58:24,807
as Jerry was saying, you, you know,

1216
00:58:24,807 --> 00:58:28,980
you respect bees and ants and wasps.

1217
00:58:28,980 --> 00:58:31,617
I have this kind of almost, you know,

1218
00:58:31,617 --> 00:58:35,730
now built in hatred for
ants because, you know,

1219
00:58:35,730 --> 00:58:40,080
they're all decimating the
native forest in Hawaii.

1220
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,540
And so you get these conflicts come up.

1221
00:58:42,540 --> 00:58:44,280
But I think for me, you know,

1222
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:49,020
it's, you know, understanding the thoughts

1223
00:58:49,020 --> 00:58:50,610
that are going through and you know,

1224
00:58:50,610 --> 00:58:53,670
recognizing that actually
these ants are very efficient

1225
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:54,690
at what they do.

1226
00:58:54,690 --> 00:58:57,115
It's not their fault that they're there,

1227
00:58:57,115 --> 00:59:02,070
but the equation becomes
more, more complex

1228
00:59:02,070 --> 00:59:05,673
as you learn all of these
different components.

1229
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,410
- An answer from me.

1230
00:59:10,410 --> 00:59:12,330
I can't overcome my disgust.

1231
00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:13,830
(everyone laughs)

1232
00:59:13,830 --> 00:59:15,243
So no, I don't eat insects.

1233
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:20,310
I think that's for a couple of reasons.

1234
00:59:20,310 --> 00:59:24,720
One of them is when I think
this is just an example.

1235
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,930
When I was just a newly sprung PhD

1236
00:59:27,930 --> 00:59:30,090
and I was still here doing some teaching,

1237
00:59:30,090 --> 00:59:33,150
I was teaching a lab

1238
00:59:33,150 --> 00:59:35,460
on the dissection of the squid.

1239
00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:38,460
And I was bent over the squid,

1240
00:59:38,460 --> 00:59:41,220
dissecting that squid to
practice for the lab, you know,

1241
00:59:41,220 --> 00:59:42,053
in order to teach, you know,

1242
00:59:42,053 --> 00:59:44,160
all the different bits of the squid.

1243
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:49,160
And I gave the carcass to my
Spanish colleague in the lab

1244
00:59:49,410 --> 00:59:52,197
who then made it into a
paella and everyone had it,

1245
00:59:52,197 --> 00:59:53,580
but I couldn't do it.

1246
00:59:53,580 --> 00:59:55,410
The smell of it was too much.

1247
00:59:55,410 --> 00:59:58,107
I just, after sitting over it.

1248
00:59:58,107 --> 00:59:59,790
And so I have an element to which I just,

1249
00:59:59,790 --> 01:00:02,640
the smell is just not
appetitive to, I don't know why.

1250
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:04,680
And you know, people have
given me like cricket cookies

1251
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,060
and things like that, and I'm just like,

1252
01:00:06,060 --> 01:00:07,230
I don't know, the smell of insects.

1253
01:00:07,230 --> 01:00:09,227
Maybe it's 'cause I've worked
with 'em so much, you know,

1254
01:00:09,227 --> 01:00:13,713
in high densities that I just,
I don't find it appetitive.

1255
01:00:14,910 --> 01:00:19,380
But yeah, maybe I might
be able to overcome that

1256
01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:21,300
if I were eating it and, you
know, it was an association

1257
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:23,010
with something nice like chocolate.

1258
01:00:23,010 --> 01:00:25,263
But no, I don't eat them.

1259
01:00:27,180 --> 01:00:28,470
- Brilliant, thank you very much.

1260
01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:31,560
So yeah, that's all we
have time for this evening,

1261
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,740
but hopefully you all
enjoyed that as much as I did

1262
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:37,110
and I would just like to
lead a round of applause

1263
01:00:37,110 --> 01:00:38,855
to thank our amazing panel.

1264
01:00:38,855 --> 01:00:41,855
(audience applause)

1265
01:00:46,117 --> 01:00:48,617
(calm music)