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For. So welcome everybody to this, which is our second meeting in the third series of Ox Intrusion Seminar,

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and I'm really excited today to be able to introduce Professor John Mimics of the University of Virginia.

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John is a specialist in the religions of Kashmir, and hence he knows about the cultural background from out of which.

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According to Tibetan belief and Mozambicans Tibet over the last few years,

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corresponding with John and his colleague Ben Williams is completely transformed.

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My own understanding of the origins of the Niebuhr tradition.

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And I strongly recommend that strategy begins an increased dialogue with scholars of Kashmir intensity.

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Tonya is professor of Indian religions and South Asian studies in the Department of Religious Studies of the University of Virginia.

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She is the author of the ubiquitous Shiva Somalilanders Majesty and His Tantric Interlocutors,

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as well as a sequel Volume C by the same title, both from Oxford University Press.

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A third volume of the series is on its way.

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John holds a Ph.D. degree in South Asian studies from the University of Pennsylvania and MPhil in Classical Intelligence from the University of

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Oxford and M.A. in Religious Studies from the University of California at Santa Barbara and a B.A. in religion from the University of Rochester.

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He was a Fulbright Scholar in India in 2002 to 2003 academic year and director

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directeur d'étude only to École Pratique distorted Paris in the spring of 2016.

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His current research examines not only 200 philosophical works,

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but also the larger intellectual and cultural context with the Valley of Kashmir of the ninth, the 12th centuries.

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And currently he's beginning a book on the study of religion and the place of historical and textual studies in the same.

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So now very, very grateful you could talk to us today and over to you.

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Well, thank you very much. And just set a timer. No, this has been really a nice conversation and thank you for being in touch,

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and it's really been a pleasure to get to know you and your work and to read your some of your essays.

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And I'm happy to share today, so I'll speak probably for 45 to 50 minutes.

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I do have a hand out which I will refer to, but not read in great detail.

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So thanks once again. And I think the work that we're doing here of linking our respective intellectual world worlds can be vital.

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And it's tragically novel in that so many people, there's a general lack of effort to do so for few, if any, have taken it up in a sustained manner.

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Yes, even though it's plainly evident that the historical and geographic areas of our interests.

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For me, the Kashmir Valley around the 10th 12th centuries with Sanskrit materials that were written or were

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circulated there at that time presents a notable historical circumstance and point of connexion,

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where from Mayan Hindu traditions of various kinds, mixed and engaged extensively not only with Indian Buddhism,

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but also with Tibetans in particular and other visitors from along the Silk Road network.

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So in the course of preparing this talk,

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I have found that the work involved in trying to connect these worlds gave me a sort of mixed feeling of seeing what is obvious and feeling

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that what I have to share with you is completely obvious on the one hand and then on the other moments of new insight or revelation.

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So to share across subdisciplines, I think, requires one not only to reiterate what is well known as I'll do today,

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but also it can give occasion to see things in a new light.

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In the present instance, this is precisely what preparing the comments I have here left me with for a while.

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It's implicitly known that scholars of shared amongst scholars of activism that the teachers identified

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with the God Shiva were said to be incarnated on Earth in order to initiate and teach worthy disciples.

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I also did not realise until preparing for today that the history of the term with which we often return refer to these incarnated gods as gurus.

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The term SIDA or SID does in the plural is complex and in fact has gone on

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traced in a change in history of use in the development of Indian religions.

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In fact, the term has to be traced to early Buddhism, I think, as well and into Jainism.

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I wanted to just put in front of you. I think a lot of you will know this book that Paul Dundas is the Jains, and there's this symbol here of this,

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our circle here at the top, which is a symbol for the world where it Sid does, where accomplished people go, it's called the Shila.

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This land where people go, where they're no longer be reborn from and live forever.

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And so this term, Sinner has kind of two qualities to it.

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On the one hand, it refers to a Rob has been writing in his publications using the term Celexa Sanderson uses,

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referring to the Avatar Tharaka sedan or the Siddha incarnated on Earth.

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We have this phenomenon of gurus who are trace their lineage and trace their very identity to

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Shiva claiming to be shiva incarnated on Earth and therefore authoritative in their teaching.

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And we have this in shiva tantra. Very common. But before that, we have the term Sid referring to a kind of class of beings,

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and we see the term being used in various non tantric works in ways that I think are interesting and bleed into tantric works as well,

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and I wanted to show a bit of that in the course of the day. OK, let's see.

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The first place I encountered all of this was with my dissertation work, and I wanted to put the hand out one last time.

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I know it's redundant for most of us, but for one or two it might not be.

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I've put it into the chart so you can download it for what that's worth, and then I'll share my screen here.

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Yes, this should be a. Yes,

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so the first place I encountered this idea of a Siddha incarnated in Earth as a

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guru was with my dissertation and indeed the work I've done for my Ph.D. I in.

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And then now two volumes of this translation of this text entitled Shiver Trustee or vision or philosophical vision of the like,

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if you like of shiva written by this figure. Saman Nanda is the founding author of this tradition that culminates in the writings of Abhinav a Gupta.

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And this is a kind of schematic of the texts that we have that are present and lost along the way.

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And at the end of the shivered Rushdie published in the Kashmir series of texts and studies and then also in manuscript sources,

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we have something that's a kind of autobiography of some under.

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It's written in the first person. I personally don't think he wrote it for a variety of reasons we don't need to go into,

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and I've given it to you here with little variance readings and that kind of thing and so on with the Sanskrit translation again,

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which I won't read for reasons of time,

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except to point out to you in this bold and underline that we have this person who is said to be as a tutor now or class down into the world.

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And we have this lineage of his ends with Soma under indeed being called a sinner that are perfected one.

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And we have said, does plural 14 of them, in fact, coming down into the Earth to offer teachings and preserve this sacred secret teaching?

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That's special. And this translation with the corresponding bold and underline I've given to you here as well.

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The point that I'm trying to make is at first, and I'll end with this kind of passage again in the end of the hour.

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But the point I'm trying to make is that the history of this term is more complicated than I know it to be God incarnate on Earth to teach.

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Yes, we have this all the time and Shi'ism. But this notion of said does being some kind of being.

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It is not an incarnate guru.

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We have this prehistory of the term as well, and I think we have to disambiguate those who are avatars or of a not crust down to the earth.

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Sid does this creature or being that lives.

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In fact, we'll see between heaven and Earth. And then of a because it is this kind of siddha embodied that comes from this strain of shy

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wisdom certainly is from a tradition of the northern transmission of the colour reform movement.

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The details about which of these little branches of Shi'ism you can get in and not this book.

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But in this book, the Alexa Sanderson first gave an article Shi'ism in the Township Traditions in this hardy edited this volume,

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and he's updated his history there in several articles since.

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But you can get a general map of how he is understood these branches and divisions of

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Shi'ism mostly represented still even still in mostly unpublished manuscript sources.

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So we have a general term Sid that I want to scout in Plato materials now and then I'll show you some passages from the tantric tradition.

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So I've mapped it out here with these items like this down through the handout.

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And I wanted to show you four places in the map out. There are others, but I just picked for their five or six that use this phrase.

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Set a granddaughter of. So the Gandara Savita, that kind of thing.

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It scans well and shrunk a metre, and it appears over and over again.

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Let me go to my notes and tell you about this passage.

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The first one is from the Aranya Ka Pavon, where we have an explanation given by I can't remember who it is.

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I'm sorry to various sacred sites you can go to and gain rewards there by.

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And one of them is said to be the source of the Cinda. The source of the Indus River, which is worshipped by cities and Gondar rivers, is Siddons.

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And then these celestial musicians are these Gandara as another group somewhat indeterminate,

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there should be more symbology done to figure out their history as well.

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So you can see this term there, I want to give you a second one just to give you a sense of the frequency of this right, said the Gundotra.

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Savita Savita's The Next One. We have neat little yoga parvin of the mobbar to again, maybe second century.

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This is quite early, probably even earlier than that.

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We have these passages in the Mahabharata referring to a place in this case a mountain that is full of special IRBs that are useful for medicine.

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And it was frequented by cities and done to her of us.

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So we have that example as well in the yoga programme when they're trying to convince the crowd of us not to fight.

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Honda was a third example here we have from the drone up carbon.

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This is one of the battle or war books of the Mahabharata, as I'm sure all of you will now be seen as being taken out of commission.

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And we have drawn a fighting and we have this passage here that I've highlighted.

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So we have Davar registered a gun out of our house side inside the apologia.

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So they're saying Syed was sobbing, right? Bravo brother Dave as vicious sisters and as was honoured, these two fighting.

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We have car now fighting with Bheema here in this passage.

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You get the point. And then yet another one that we have here, right?

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Worship this. This person is being worshipped by citizen drivers as well as by gods, as well as by riches.

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So we clearly have passages that are suggesting these cities are kind of being a special kind of being along the lines of in the lines of cantatas,

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which is drivers and so on. The reason that I had my mind on this passage, there are other places.

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I'm sure there are many, many other places. I haven't searched it completely. I'm sure there are many other places in the Mahabharata and elsewhere,

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certainly in pharaonic literature as well, where cities are mentioned in this kind of vein.

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But the reason I look for Indian dharma in this compound is that I recall that of memory,

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a text that I edited and translated at Oxford for my end and subsequently published.

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I gave you the reference here in the footnote.

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Yeah, I called the Judas and the Hammer Tantra, and this is a text we haven't to customers the first to maybe second,

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but it reads and appears and presents almost like a truncated complete tantra.

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And it starts with this description of this place where we have the day of a day of Mahesh, one of the gods shiva sitting seated.

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Excuse me, and it's described as Sudha Kongara Fujita.

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And that line had stuck in my mind. And this is a text tantric text that's part of this Counter-Reformation.

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So it's even a later part of at present, somewhat later partnership with centrism using this kind of stock phrase that we

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certainly have from the Mahabharata and elsewhere coming into a tantric scriptural work.

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We also see it in the temple, said Baba Tantra.

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As I've given you in this footnote, the same phrases there in the temporal lobe.

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This is my longish way of coming around and saying these sectors have a free history, a pretty long history.

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When we say the phrase, we're going to have to think about what it possibly could mean when we find it even in tantric works,

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because it seems evident to me that this of a kind of compound we have is a stock phrase.

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It's pre tantric that's fed into tantric works as well.

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Now I wanted to share a little bit more information about these.

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Sid does that comes from non-toxic and free tantric works.

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And here I've given you two passages. I'm just checking the time so I don't speak German.

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I'm giving you two passages here from the yoga studio.

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And its commentary are the same as posture of the asset, who it's been argued is the same person as Patanjali.

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But here we have this passage of yoga a two point forty four.

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It says that if you reduce my desire, then you will get a connexion.

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You'll make a connexion with your ish today avatar. But the commentary says that those who are the person who is skilled in smart

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guy right will have come into his vision divas Rishi's and Sid does so again.

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This looks like a class of being yeah, that's similar to gods and riches and so on.

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But the really clinching evidence that we have that absolutely think about this as a class of beings and it's pretty tantric context is what we

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have in the yoga suture and the beauty part of this famous third book of the yoga sutures where the cities are mentioned in the intro itself,

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there's the set, the darshan.

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But the commentary says this about the cities that they course in the Inter, in the intermedia, around between Earth and heaven.

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And this is indeed where we see this kind of world of cities. Maybe I don't know.

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I have. This is what was new to me in preparing this by Rob's question.

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And maybe something from Jain tradition is feeding into epic and this kind of classical Sanskrit.

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We could say Hindu texts. Yeah, I don't know what the history is exactly, but clearly we're.

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I'm talking in these earlier contexts about avatar accidents or perfected God coming to Earth,

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manifest on Earth in the form of a perfected human being, which we have much of, as we'll see shortly.

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There's an intermediate intermediary phase in coming to this idea of a Siddha, that's an avatar,

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as we saw in that first passage I shared at the beginning of the talk from that so-called autobiography of Samantha that,

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by the way, one of the reasons I'm not sure on underwrote it is because there are places in the manuscripts where it's not included in the text.

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OK, that's no big deal. But then there are manuscripts that include it and only a call it, a variety, some kind of commentary.

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So it's a little bit funny in the manuscript transmission. The other thing about it is that it mentions the so-called local language.

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It uses a nonsense word to refer to this person who's somehow someone on this line or through whom someone on this line is said.

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To have been manifested in that reference to the vernacular doesn't feel like something Salamander would have done.

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It feels like something that would have happened after his time. But that's neither here nor there.

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I wanted to show you and I won't read it,

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but I want to show you this passage here that comes from this famous commentary on the past partial courtesy from the partial cut early.

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This is what we sometimes call a prototype trick work. It's not part of what we know, as was referred to as the one from the path of mantras.

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But by later, shy of a contract, tradition's was referred to as the etymology or the outer path or the extreme pass.

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But these partial putters from 2nd century on. And we know that this commentary was probably fifth sixth century, this commentary of India.

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And here we have the notion expressed of God coming to Earth to teach.

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I descended to Earth using this term of a teacher now and this we have in this commentary on the partial part of Suchas.

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This is a well known passage. However, also quoted by Ben Williams, with whom I know Rob has been speaking.

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And as it happens, Ben and I work together.

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We read Sanskrit together on Skype or Zoom. And he came to Virginia last week and gave a lecture, in fact.

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So I just saw him in person about eight or nine days ago.

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But he says of this passage in his Ph.D. dissertation regarding quotes regarding the partial Panopto based ascetic traditions,

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there is evidence that Laco Alisha identified in the 6th century commentary on the past she practised,

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such as as Shiva descending into the Shiva Sanctuary of Pi of a Southerner and assuming the son of a

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Brahmin came to be venerated as the earliest and most revered foundational teacher of the tradition.

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And here we have, in other words, an early reference perhaps in Shi'ism wisdom.

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I think so far, I think in wisdom, the earliest reference we have to the notion of Shiva manifesting itself as a teacher in a human form.

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And the translation given here, also cited by Ben Williams in his dissertation, is by Hara,

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the great scholar who has this wonderful dissertation and then book is this from a dissertation on the participants of tradition?

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Recently, there is a book that came out and then I'll come to the more properly tantric material shortly.

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But recently there's a book that came out by Elizabeth Sesso.

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I don't know if you can see what's sharing the screen. Also, the cover of the book entitled Mapping the Past, the Landscape and As It Happens,

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I was just asked to and did publish a review of this book that's in the The Iranian Journal the most recent issue, and it's a lovely book.

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It's also full of that one hundred and six or 108 colour plates.

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It's really a beautiful book, well-researched and totally available and open access, and I would recommend it to you.

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It's a nice book looking at this history of this early phase of activism of this party.

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Margaret, if you like tradition and mapping the ways in which the scandal that articulates a vision for this posture of tradition is

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engaged and worked with in the material culture of three regions in west and southwest India and around the 6th century,

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or take a few centuries, depending on the material.

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So in any event, she either cites this passage from the Purana that I've given to you in this handout item number 11.

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And it's an interesting passage that again refers to these partial patas understanding their guru to be a manifested form of Shiva as a human.

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And you see that they're different, you guys, when he comes down, I guess I can read this passage, why not?

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I won't read the transcript. It's there for you.

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And in the crypto UGA, he became horrible in this country, bearing the Pinaka bow and having borne the burden of the choice for him.

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He threw that burden into the normal rhythm and the great lord out of compassion, with a desire for the liberation from birth of those who are mortal,

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became independent in the trade, the age cutting off their heads to effect their liberation and end the devil put age.

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He became Russiagate and graced humanity with dance in the same way of life.

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So Shiva himself is descended to Earth in this country of corona.

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In every other racing there, the Brahmins, whose hearts or minds menaces the world are pure.

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And of course, we know that continuous commentary on the passion of success is intended for Brahmins,

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although the tradition may have had a wider ambit than that outside of his interpretation of it.

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There are two other things from Sasol's book that now I'd like to follow up on because of this initial initiatives.

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This impulse from this kind of engagement with Rob and that is that Cecil notes in two places unfortunately didn't give the text of these passages.

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She notes in two places interesting passages that use the term Siddha one is another place must come to Parana,

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which I surely can look up that uses the term to refer to posh adepts as Sid does.

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And these are ones that are said to have gained a union with shiver, a shiver yoga, a connexion with shiver in the city of Banaras.

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Savara and I see also.

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She mentioned an inscription from the West Coast in the Konkan coast in India in what is today currently within the city limits of Mumbai,

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Kolkata on a hill. There is an inscription there in Brahmin script that refers to a religious specialist who might be associated with the of cultures.

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He's a specialist named Lucila, and he is referred to as a said that I don't think we're dealing with this Sid.

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This is interesting. I don't think we're dealing with the other Tharaka that's captured Rob's attention because the

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posh parties don't have that non duellist theology and suggestion of total union or identity with.

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So there's something else still going on here. Of course, we said that just means accomplished someone who's accomplished.

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It's a term. We also have suggested that know these kinds of things, sadhana.

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We have these kinds of terms in general ways with religious practise, also in philosophy.

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So tracing this figure of the incarnated perfected Shiva as Sid.

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That on Earth takes a little bit of digging around one kind of hard landmark we have

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for sure of where this term seems well to be being used in the way that matters today.

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In a kind of tantric sense is Indrajit Sarangani.

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You may well know this is a 12th century text definitely written in Kashmir by someone in California.

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It's a really wonderful work. I took out my copy. It's in three volumes.

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This is the Sanskrit volume, the third eye. It's not that you need it.

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Then there are also annotations and corrections and additions made by several other scholars.

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But the graduate Sarangani skilfully edited.

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It's twice been translated. This is Stein's edition,

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which has a rich salamon from University of Washington and one other have made some corrections have found additional manuscript sources,

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but it's a solid edition with a solid translation.

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And this is a 12th century where it goes and gives a history of Kashmir, the Kashmir valley from the dawn of the collega to the author's day.

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So it's really quite an interesting text. He attests in the beginning of the work to his historical sources.

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That's something that's very surprising for Sanskrit works.

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He talks about inscriptions and other kinds of sources for iconic works he had and that kind of thing and how he accessed them.

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It doesn't tell us how he weighed them relative to one another. But clearly he was interested in doing what we could probably call historical work.

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It's been argued, whether it's proper history or not, it doesn't really matter all that much for our purposes.

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What does matter is his use of vocabulary here. In this passage, I've quoted an item number 12,

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right where he talks about cities that were descended to Earth right in the time of this King of Anti-environment.

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And they did it in order to grace the world of people.

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Look on a number of high up and mentioned here is the Sri Calata and others.

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And but to see collaterally, of course, now as a shiva author in the township traditions.

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And so this is clear evidence of using this work in using this language of

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cities and languages to cross down of a tree to press down together like this,

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at least in this time. I'm guessing that I don't know.

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I don't want to even say, but certainly by around the 10th century, people are talking this way.

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So much is also to be found in the earliest commentary on the same ship as soon as the ship's future of immersion came at our object.

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And I've given you a passage in item number 13.

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I should say that Ben Williams when I came here, this is a famous passage for Ben when he came here the last week or the week before.

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Now, anyway, within the last ten days came here.

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He gave a lecture, but then he gave a Sanskrit reading for two hours with some of the graduate students and myself and a colleague as well.

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And he actually looked, amongst other things, at this passage here,

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which is interesting and I thought should be brought to your attention if you're not aware of it already because of the content, it's involved.

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But here we certainly have the language of Seders being used.

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The passage is controversial, however. It attributes the authorship of this to researchers, not to us.

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Gupta, as, but to Bhaskara, had done or did do excuse me,

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but to a timeless treasure that is found by Russell on the surface of a magically overturned

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rock ship in this narrative gives him knowledge of that and a dream which he then finds.

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He finds that rock and partakes of and shares.

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The knowledge that's recorded there in this narrative is said to have been purified and heart by Eugenie's ancestors.

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This is a pairing yoga needs and so on. I'll highlight here.

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I hope I think you can see on the screen share citizen yoga.

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These are purifying this person. This combination siddha and yoga need rather than sit ins and diversidad de la shoes and so on and so forth.

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This combination is much more in the flavour we would expect of as terrorism and shy, but some and we do see it a lot.

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OK. And in that in this narrative, excuse me, he is said to have been purified in the heart by yoga knees, and so does.

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And the passage goes like this. I think it's worth reading out how are we for time?

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I'm going to be not too long, which is good because no one wants to be tucked up too long.

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Here in Kashmir, there was a certain venerable venerable guru named Vasu Gupta, who was wholly devoted to Shiva.

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Yes, at the auspicious Maha Davor Mountain.

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Each of the superior quality of his devotion to Shiva, which was ever opening as a result, the force of the descent of Shiraz Power.

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He did not accept the teaching of cities such as Naga Modi, who took up a position at a lower level of religion.

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He was intent on worship of Shiva, his heart having been purified by the true tradition of the various Shirey organisms.

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So this at some point. Moreover, part of my shiver raised him and rendered him of an inspired vision, which is awakened in a dream.

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This because he shiva was intent on gracing him as a doctor with the sight in mind that the secret tradition should

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not be interrupted in the world of living beings dominated as it was by the perfume of dualistic philosophy.

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And he was indeed graced since he is said to him Here on this mountain, there is a secret teaching written on the surface of a great stone.

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Find it and then reveal it in the presence of those fit for such divine grace and thus awakened.

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He was too good to sort out that stone after turning it over by merely touching it with his hand.

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He saw, as his dream confirmed from that he obtained these shiva sutures.

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These sutures about shiva, which are a brief compendium of the secrets of shiva.

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And having studied them properly, he revealed them in the presence of true disciples such as back to Sri Calata.

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The person we had mentioned in the Rajah Germany, amongst others,

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just as he also made a digest of them with the Sun, caught us by the author of this passage.

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Shame on Argentine,

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if possibly properly made clear the meaning of the was on cosmic vibrations and that which had been obtained by way of that genealogy.

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This in my own sun near Maya. The researchers, in turn, are made clear in this commentary.

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This is the beginning of his emotional commentary on the researchers explaining the source of this text,

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referring to this kind of discovery of a treasure,

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if you like, by overturning the stone and talking also about this tradition of systems that communicates knowledge.

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OK. Excuse me, just to check again the time.

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I think there's enough time left to do the third thing that I wanted to do.

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So first, I wanted to look at this term, Sid, and it's pretty much fun to say we have these beings.

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And I think somehow that idea of being in a celestial world is being pulled into shy wisdom and combined with this notion of the avatar.

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Of course, the concept that we have with Christian in the Mahabharata and being combined to say we have teachers that come down from heaven,

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they're perfected. Are literally perfected. And they can provide teachings to the world.

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So we looked a little bit at these pretty places where this group of being sisters are described as being in that land between Earth and heaven.

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We looked at some passages that show cognisance of sinners as teachers of terrorism, as teachers,

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of shy of some tantra, including Roger Sarangani, where I think the reference is clear to that phenomenon.

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The famous reference nothing new there.

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Also, this famous passage that introduces shame, a graduate student about the novel to shame Raja's commentary on the Shiv astuteness.

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But the last thing I wanted to do and I wrote about this, quite frankly, a long time ago, I gave a talk at Harvard in 2014.

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That's when I met Ben Williams. And then it was published in the first trip for Alexa Sanderson.

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Under the title, I should be able to give you the title of the article, I wrote.

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It'll come back to me in a moment, but it's in the Sanderson and best shrimp innovation and social change in the Valley of Kashmir.

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That's the title of the article, and I want to come to the issue that I raised in that article,

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which is what having these cities can do theologically if we can speak that way for the tradition.

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So in certain Buddhist traditions, it's possible ever to find authority for new teachings by way of suggesting that such new teachings,

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new to humanity at least were passed down from the Buddha who taught them himself in secret lineages with their fortunes theologically,

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if we can say that in that very loose way can justify the emergence and history of what are apparently

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novel teachings and practises new that is to the is being introduced to them for the first time.

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The argument I made in the Sanderson fresh shrimp is if these cities work that way in Shi'ism and that they are meant to and explicitly so.

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So I want to show you these passages dealing with these Scheiber authors Saman under his immediate disciple,

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each palliativa and also a passage or two.

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Some I didn't have a Gupta and show what they do with this idea of something new coming into the world.

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Justified by the fact that if God comes down to Earth from an unchanging,

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transcendent form in sit alone in the world of the desert and shiver loca in the abode of Shiva,

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what is bringing is the eternal and transcendent and yet enters into history in a particular moment in the form of a personage imagined as historical,

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I say. But to come out to was and therefore appears in that historical work, the larger Tangney.

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So in that article, I first consider it an idea argued by Sheldon Pollock,

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which I felt was really rich and useful, but somewhat overwrought and overly determined,

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and claiming that Sanskrit texts could not allow for any dialectical interaction between theory and practise on Pollock's view theory was the preserve

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an elite of an elite who predetermine what could possibly be real and kept this from changing by claiming a timelessness to their textual and i.e.,

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religious authority. The argument was the Vedas are astralis and timeless, and what they record is as true as the periodic table.

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It's not something discovered. It's not sorry, it's not something created.

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It's something merely known by way of the vision of riches to be the nature of reality.

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And since it was permanent and unchanging, it could neither be challenged nor change.

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If one took seriously their argument of the eternal nature of the sources offering that knowledge,

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one no more could change their views of these texts,

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then one could change the nature of the periodic table, both being natural, permanent, simply existent and not created.

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This is to say that the purportedly timeless and often this works to find the world in terms of what is and should and only could be,

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rather than articulating any contingency theory,

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one that could be subject to revision on the basis of practise on the ground or new information or events.

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There could be no dialectical relationship between the theory offered in scripture and the practise to be performed on the ground.

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Pollock says. For here on a scale probably unparalleled in the pre-modern world, I'm quoting him.

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We find a thorough transformation adopting now.

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Gewirtz is Clifford Geertz, as well known dichotomy as models of human activity transformed into models for human activity,

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whereby texts that initially had shaped themselves to reality so as to make

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it graspable and by asserting the authority to shape reality to themselves.

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This is Pollock's view, which I'm arguing is too narrow. You can have new ideas in religion.

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We can have new ideas and ism by way of these symbols. We can have new ideas that are explicitly said to be new, as I'll show you in a moment.

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But the idea here is Pollock's idea was and I've I've finished going through this and then wrap up my comments.

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He said that there were three consequences to his theory of shastra and criolla

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theory and practise the creation of knowledge was exclusively a divine activity.

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Knowledge was by and large views viewed as permanent and fixed in its dimensions.

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And third, and finally, there could be no conception of progress of the forward movement from worse to better on the basis of innovations in practise.

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Now. He's right and is wrong there, too.

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He's right in those arguments were put forward,

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but he's wrong in the sense that there were two dimensions of textual production in pre-modern South Asia and in the Hindu interest and quite frankly,

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in Buddhism, the challenges. The first is that there are canons of works that are open or at least remained open for a long time.

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You can have new sources proliferated or reveal at different times and allow for new scriptural facts to emerge on the ground.

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And the second fact closely related to that is the so-called ahistorical A.

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The term Pollock uses the basis for the author is some transcendence.

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The public has shown furnished religious authority is a historical city was conceived in various ways, including in the form of the Sydnor personage.

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And because of that, you could imagine a complex formation of religious authority whereby other scriptures come

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in and they had technical exegetical ways of weighing them in relation to one another.

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Claiming This is timeless teaching of Shiva. But what does she was the one who brought it?

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So you could do both, paradoxically at the same time,

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you have something like this going on in the tradition that I work on this past year between our two big tradition.

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The term means the recognition recognition that what you're experiencing is nothing but the dynamic change in activity of as consciousness.

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And I wanted to give these passages to show how this is mapped out in the tradition.

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First, we have Padova saying at the beginning of his famous text, you should have to your car because it somehow he's become a servant of sugar,

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a serving of Mahesh fiddle, and he wants to offer assistance to all people to facilitate recognition and shiver in your own experience.

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All they do now is shiver in this dynamic for. And he explicitly and I mean, have adopted to refer to the authority of their teacher,

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the person I've been working on on under, who in the beginning of his text,

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sorry, this is never very fun and says this year a small group of Somalis, Sparkman Money borrowed anybody a shiver credit to me.

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J.R. The article today, whichever who has penetrated or taken possession of the language of possession has taken my form, possessed my form,

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my very body by warding himself off by means of his own self may shiver pay homage to his all extensive self by means of his own power.

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All the dynamic functioning of consciousness on an individual level of the universe that we know is this movement,

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the sequence of shivers, energies and powers.

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So there's an identification of the author with Shiva himself also in the autobiographical passage stuck in this handout at the beginning.

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And then we have a claim that's made that's very interesting at the end of the eastern part, two big car doors of each elevator,

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he says that the path he's charting there is philosophy that tells you how to come to know what really counts, how to know God.

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He says it's new. This is really quite fascinating in the context of Indian tradition,

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it so often obscures the historical nature, the historical location of texts and ourselves.

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And so it's really a remarkable comment to have been made.

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I'm not the first to have noticed this, but I understand it, I think in relation to the civic tradition, I'm certainly the first to have done that.

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So I just have two or three pages left in my talk or read.

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This little bit out here is about how to of Paris was the first scholar explicitly to note the significance of this title passage.

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Asia Margot. Never, never. Yeah, and she suggested that holiday refers to the novelty of the path he describes in his car.

373
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:13,540
It does because he wishes to indicate that it does not authenticate authenticate itself by any overt appeal to scripture.

374
00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:20,330
I think that's true. I also had proposed, however, that one must understand a rather different.

375
00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:26,780
Also understand another justification for Davis's description of the past as new.

376
00:43:26,780 --> 00:43:31,910
It's not merely the fact that one need not appeal to shave scriptures to follow it.

377
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:41,950
It's also I suggest that the primary sense which post gave description of the path of new is that it's new to humanity.

378
00:43:41,950 --> 00:43:50,920
And this is events in Somalia and his autobiography that the threat to begat teachings were said to have been concealed by great stages

379
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:59,200
at the beginning of the college age preserved as they were by means of a secret lineage described therein brought down to Earth.

380
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:09,910
Or were these mine born to three because who were sisters and revealed subsequently for the benefit of those who come to be initiated into its ways?

381
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:17,020
I do think that passage that I showed you at the beginning, we come back to it and show it at the end of the talk.

382
00:44:17,020 --> 00:44:25,210
I link it to this idea of something being new because so does I have a good time now I give you a little blast.

383
00:44:25,210 --> 00:44:36,190
Hear what the term new means in the commentaries that the commentary that holiday era has auto commentary that he writes on his own text.

384
00:44:36,190 --> 00:44:40,330
I give it to you in this footnote here. Thirty two pieces.

385
00:44:40,330 --> 00:44:49,210
So my Ananda, whose very appearance is that as a great lord pomace, right in front of one's eyes of Samantha, his teacher was God himself incarnate.

386
00:44:49,210 --> 00:44:58,850
We get the idea. But Abby never Gupta also talks about it being new and so on, and gives this comment here in hand.

387
00:44:58,850 --> 00:45:05,970
Item number 17, which maps out this lineage.

388
00:45:05,970 --> 00:45:13,770
In a manner that highly reflects what we have in Somalia on this so-called autobiography of a novel

389
00:45:13,770 --> 00:45:20,770
and his favourite TV marshalling on this passage that says this is a new path refers to this.

390
00:45:20,770 --> 00:45:29,500
Can this sequence of daddy's free content not to do advisers to Trojan back up to America,

391
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:36,970
which is exactly what we have in those parts in Somalia on this autobiography?

392
00:45:36,970 --> 00:45:40,450
The point is whether we can line these two up or not.

393
00:45:40,450 --> 00:45:42,880
I think we can clearly.

394
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:52,690
I mean, Gupta is thinking about novelty in terms of this idea of something crashing down through this sort of tradition into the world,

395
00:45:52,690 --> 00:45:55,300
and that's the only point I want to make.

396
00:45:55,300 --> 00:46:01,780
The practical idea presents the reader with a self-conscious understanding of their shastra as divinely sanctioned.

397
00:46:01,780 --> 00:46:07,060
Yes, it's guaranteed by the identity of the authors in the in the lineage.

398
00:46:07,060 --> 00:46:11,650
As cities, they are nothing other, no one other than Chevette himself.

399
00:46:11,650 --> 00:46:16,000
And yet, while this divinely sanctioned the Shasta's they disseminate,

400
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:23,140
their texts are intimately, inextricably tied to the biographies of individual agents.

401
00:46:23,140 --> 00:46:33,460
These are understood as people who lived in Kashmir on a particular day at a particular time which holiday was so, so minor, and I never got that.

402
00:46:33,460 --> 00:46:38,380
So this is something like the avatar theory we have with Krishna God.

403
00:46:38,380 --> 00:46:44,250
Yes, transcendent, yes. But in history, in a particular place and time.

404
00:46:44,250 --> 00:46:54,150
So this concurrence of historicity and divine authority finally allows the issue to be Gadkari to where I took this never marga passage for you.

405
00:46:54,150 --> 00:47:03,600
This new past passage for you to claim, to offer or offer something that is both new and transcendent.

406
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,680
So my conclusion?

407
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:15,670
The threat big, yeah, through the doctrine of the oratorical system, thus achieved in its explicit and implicit theoretical formulations.

408
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:21,910
The apparently paradoxical aims of both offering something both in history,

409
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:27,940
historically located and new on the one hand and yet transcended on the other.

410
00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:38,080
The teachings being ultimately authored and authorised by Shearer himself and thus held to be uncontained by any historical bounds,

411
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:46,600
even if they come into history, incarnated Guru of a term that presents in these traditions from time to time.

412
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,880
We have it with Christian in the Mahabharata.

413
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:56,470
We have it here as well, allowing for flexibility and dynamism in doctrine such as new practises and ideas,

414
00:47:56,470 --> 00:48:02,080
and a host of other concerns that make their way into an authoritatively presented reception

415
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:08,800
in history and yet be transcendent and yet find their way historically into modernity.

416
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:15,790
So that's what I wanted to say to kind of go through this idea of this avatar to sit down

417
00:48:15,790 --> 00:48:21,010
and look at its prehistory in a certain way and think about how it might connect up.

418
00:48:21,010 --> 00:48:28,060
I hope we can think about how it might connect up to the things you're reading. By having this kind of background.

419
00:48:28,060 --> 00:48:34,280
OK, thank you very much. Thank you, John, for a really fascinating talk.

420
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,440
Really sums up so many of the things that we need to know.

421
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,210
I mean, really, really interesting stuff.

422
00:48:41,210 --> 00:48:49,550
I think there's been so little work done on innovation in Indian religions, so much emphasis on the sort of timelessness.

423
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:54,920
And really, I think this whole Series of Treasures seminar is aiming to kind of look at that.

424
00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:15,433
We've already had it necessarily come as wonderful took on the double barnacles and there is more to come.