1 00:00:00,690 --> 00:00:06,650 Catherine that's really phoned me up. I'm an old development practitioner. 2 00:00:06,660 --> 00:00:13,500 I'm not an academic. I'm actually a practitioner researcher for the last ten years. 3 00:00:14,490 --> 00:00:23,040 And it was only last week that I met her that and it was only two days after meeting that she sent an invite saying, We've got a space. 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,940 Could you come and talk? What I accepted I could offer to be. 5 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:32,879 That's not so difficult. I've probably already sort of got something that I can share with you, 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:40,660 but actually I didn't finish this presentation until about 2 minutes ago because I realised as I was preparing that what you 7 00:00:40,660 --> 00:00:51,030 were interested in is changing character of conflict with something that I really needed to adjust my thinking around for you. 8 00:00:51,030 --> 00:00:54,299 So I'm, it's it's an experiment. Let's see how we go. 9 00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:59,730 I'm, I'm going to be sharing findings from three studies that I've done. 10 00:01:00,870 --> 00:01:03,930 And what I'm hoping will come from today, 11 00:01:04,410 --> 00:01:12,180 from this session is a sort of maybe a greater understanding or a deeper excitement 12 00:01:12,180 --> 00:01:18,960 around how comprehending sort of male and female gender relations identities, 13 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:26,520 gender ideologies can really shed light on what you're trying to to learn about and look at and examine. 14 00:01:27,180 --> 00:01:34,140 I believe it can I hope that you see that, too, at the end of this, if you don't already. 15 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:42,780 Oh, it's going back to this. When I put this picture up here, I've used quite a few photos in this presentation. 16 00:01:43,260 --> 00:01:55,440 I don't know if that's allowed in an academic setting. This is a picture from Somalia in the late 1970s, and these women are all policewomen. 17 00:01:56,250 --> 00:02:04,260 So I put it there because not many people, it seems, sort of know very much about the the pre 1991 history of Somalia. 18 00:02:04,260 --> 00:02:11,940 And I am going to be talking a bit about that today because I am an old person and I was actually there before the war. 19 00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:20,340 So woman use of it. So just to introduce you briefly to the studies of there are qualitative studies and Katrina 20 00:02:20,340 --> 00:02:26,400 and I had this conversation over breakfast about quantitative qualitative research. 21 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:36,360 My work is always pretty much on the qualitative side, particularly using life stories and semi-structured interviews. 22 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:43,409 If I can get in sometimes focus groups and I work with Somali researchers or whoever are local researchers, 23 00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:46,049 so it's not me going out there doing all the interviews. 24 00:02:46,050 --> 00:02:52,710 I might do some if I can do them in English, but usually I'm working with a local a team of local researchers. 25 00:02:54,180 --> 00:03:02,880 So there are three studies. The first one you can find these or I'll give you the links, which is called The Impacts of War on Men, on Somali men. 26 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,970 And that was undertaken with the Rift Valley Institute. Actually, I'm not part of the Rift Valley Institute. 27 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:18,150 I'm associated with them, but I'm an independent research and I do do a lot of work with them and they have been keen for me to come to this. 28 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,690 The second study is it's called Women in Conflict and Peace Learning from Kismayo. 29 00:03:25,770 --> 00:03:28,890 Do you mind just show me if you sort of very familiar with Somalia. 30 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:32,340 I mean, does anyone here sort of specialise on Somalia? 31 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:35,910 Yeah, you're the only one that's mission proof. 32 00:03:36,150 --> 00:03:42,420 Yeah, I think I can give you my best job with that, Michel. 33 00:03:44,460 --> 00:03:47,780 Okay, so I might just give you a little bit of background about that one. 34 00:03:48,180 --> 00:03:53,190 This study was undertaken with the Life and Peace Institute primarily and their local partner, 35 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,000 Somali Women's Solidarity organisation Peace Direct funded it. 36 00:03:59,550 --> 00:04:08,730 We wanted in this study to really find out if it is a case study in one context, one small place, because it's not so from one place. 37 00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:13,890 And we wanted to learn about what do women do in conflict, what are their roles in conflict? 38 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:20,969 Because lots of these are Peacebuilding Organisation and they wanted to really find 39 00:04:20,970 --> 00:04:26,720 new avenues for bringing women on board and then the peacebuilding it through, 40 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:31,160 through many, many of the findings as well. And then lastly and I, 41 00:04:31,180 --> 00:04:37,890 I've it's not highlighted in the same way because this is a study that isn't published and I'm really not supposed to be even talking about it, 42 00:04:38,310 --> 00:04:47,460 but I actually feel very sure that it's relevant to what you're interested in and I'm just came for it to be published. 43 00:04:48,210 --> 00:04:59,610 It's a study of women girls in al-Shabab experiences, and it was research that we did in Somalia, in Somaliland, which is in the north east Kenya. 44 00:05:00,860 --> 00:05:08,390 Publication pending, and I can't say more about it, but we will have Chatham House rules when I do talk about that part. 45 00:05:08,870 --> 00:05:17,210 Okay. So those are the three studies. There is a fourth one which I haven't put up there, but I suppose it informs everything that I do these days. 46 00:05:17,540 --> 00:05:25,879 And it's an earlier piece of work that I did with Judy Upshaw, who the late Judy of which I didn't, in part from Michelle. 47 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:31,490 How many of you do? But it was a study of the impact of war on Somali women. 48 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:36,649 And this was done with with Somali women. It's a collaborative thing. 49 00:05:36,650 --> 00:05:40,160 And it's written up in a book which is still available. 50 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,570 It's called Somalia The Untold Story The War Through the Eyes of Somali Women. 51 00:05:45,150 --> 00:05:51,140 I mention that because all of the rest of these things have come from that initial study. 52 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:59,690 We worked with a group of women who were sharing their experiences and impacts during the 1990s about the war. 53 00:06:00,050 --> 00:06:09,590 And one of the things that they said to us was Our lives as women will never recover until the men are the lives of our menfolk recover. 54 00:06:10,430 --> 00:06:16,280 And that sort of lodged in my mind. We didn't at the time really explore it, but it lodged in my mind and Judy's mind. 55 00:06:16,580 --> 00:06:21,979 And it wasn't until really more than 15 years later we were able to get funding to do this 56 00:06:21,980 --> 00:06:26,150 follow on study to actually try to find out what it was that women were talking about. 57 00:06:26,930 --> 00:06:31,759 And I mention that because throughout this presentation, in fact, throughout all my work, 58 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,740 when I talk about gender, I'm not talking about women and girls. 59 00:06:35,750 --> 00:06:41,930 I'm talking about the relationship between women, between men and men, between women and men. 60 00:06:42,420 --> 00:06:45,530 This gender is a relational concept. 61 00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:51,350 And I think that I mean, maybe that's how you also think about it. 62 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:54,650 But we do have to pretend to operate in the world, in the developing world. 63 00:06:55,070 --> 00:07:01,580 But gender means women and girls. And so there's always a struggle to sort of establish it's actually me. 64 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:08,059 Now I want to share three observations that for me frame this presentation because 65 00:07:08,060 --> 00:07:13,220 I framing it for you and for this idea around the changing character of war. 66 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:17,660 And I'm taking this from a work that Judy did. 67 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:23,590 I don't know if any of you have seen it. Why does armed conflict recur and what has gender got to do with it? 68 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:30,230 It's a brilliant paper. It's not very long. It was an LSC, Women Peace and Security Paper came out last year. 69 00:07:31,170 --> 00:07:36,140 And so she makes many observations in the paper and I just picked out three. 70 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:38,000 So the first one I really mentioned, 71 00:07:38,540 --> 00:07:50,180 gender is a relational sense and that gender is really deeply implicated in conflict and in violence and the knock on effects and beyond. 72 00:07:50,510 --> 00:07:54,290 And, and that's why it's valuable to essential. 73 00:07:54,290 --> 00:07:59,210 We might like to, to look at what's happening on the ground in terms of gender relations. 74 00:08:00,170 --> 00:08:09,590 Then she makes another observation, which our findings really bear out, which is that transformation of gender relations can go either way. 75 00:08:10,130 --> 00:08:14,870 There's no guarantee. And when we look at Somalia, it's a brilliant example of this. 76 00:08:15,770 --> 00:08:22,250 You can think that you're changing gender relations in a positive way or that they are changing and therefore they can be pushed back. 77 00:08:23,030 --> 00:08:26,140 And this so it's very difficult to make a cause and effect fact. 78 00:08:26,150 --> 00:08:31,040 You can't really establish or generalise about cause and effect. 79 00:08:32,030 --> 00:08:38,700 And then she also says that history shows that the roots of repairing conflict may 80 00:08:38,750 --> 00:08:44,750 be sort in the behaviour of past generations as well as in current structures. 81 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:54,440 And I really do more and more and more I feel history is so important in my work and the people 82 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,930 that I'm working with and I think my presentation will take some steps back into the street. 83 00:09:01,010 --> 00:09:09,470 She goes on to say, Underlying tensions and grievances often often recur cyclically over decades, if not over centuries. 84 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,030 The knowledge of violence can be transferred from one generation to another. 85 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:17,810 And we see that in the Somali context, particularly through women. 86 00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:25,010 Women are a sort of vehicle for carrying this the knowledge of the past grievances, 87 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,829 and it informs not only the fact of war, but also the intensity of the violence. 88 00:09:30,830 --> 00:09:33,650 And again, that really resonates with what we found. 89 00:09:34,190 --> 00:09:42,739 I would say that I hadn't read this before we did the studies, so it's just a nice validation of what Jean is saying. 90 00:09:42,740 --> 00:09:48,100 I just wanted after talking with Katarina, I just wanted to add one more thing that Judy goes on to say, 91 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,930 because I thought it was relevant to our earlier conversation. 92 00:09:52,790 --> 00:09:59,570 She says these insights undermine the presumption of orthodox conflict analysis that conflict is. 93 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:06,809 Be measured in terms of battle deaths and to be explained exclusively by the machinations 94 00:10:06,810 --> 00:10:11,520 of warlords and financiers whose elimination will herald a sustainable peace. 95 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,090 I mean, that's certainly the reality in Somalia. 96 00:10:15,210 --> 00:10:18,630 That's kind of what drives a lot of the international policymaking. 97 00:10:19,140 --> 00:10:25,920 That's why the focus so much on the elites, on the people that they identify as the rulers who always male, 98 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,940 who gets to be at the table every single time. 99 00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:39,210 But of course, if we start to look down and I hope this is what I'll show you today, what we see underneath all that is going on. 100 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,510 And it's not going to be affected by the deaths of the warlords or whoever else moving them on. 101 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,570 It's still there. It's residual in the social fabric. 102 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:54,030 And unless that's addressed, then it's unfinished business. 103 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,120 Now, I just made a little timeline for you. I tried to sort of things so say so much. 104 00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:02,280 You could say whether it would be interesting or not that in it. 105 00:11:02,910 --> 00:11:11,660 But I've tried to sort of divide up a sort of Somalia's history into these four stages. 106 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:21,449 I've got some pictures to go with this just to share with you some sort of thinking precolonial colonial pastoral past. 107 00:11:21,450 --> 00:11:28,110 So up to about independence 1960. And there's a picture of pastoral women dancing. 108 00:11:30,210 --> 00:11:31,890 I would say a huge loss about that. 109 00:11:31,890 --> 00:11:41,670 But you'll find that when I refer to the North excuse me, the norms and expectations of men that coming from this colonial past. 110 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:52,590 Okay. That's what we found when we talk to men and women today about what's expected of being a man that is the modern Somalia, 111 00:11:52,590 --> 00:12:02,010 the cabaret era, sort of up to from 69 to to 90 state collapse. 112 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,469 And I think you'll probably find that I do really emphasise state collapse almost over and 113 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:12,960 above the wars that have affected Somalia because state collapse has been so catastrophic. 114 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:23,129 And the aftermath. And then and this is my sort of artificial dividing up here, 115 00:12:23,130 --> 00:12:33,300 but I think others would agree that you could see very significant changes post-9-11 post war on terrorism. 116 00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:37,800 Post that after the announcement up to today, 117 00:12:38,330 --> 00:12:48,630 I don't know if you like the sort of the embodiment of that change through the changing of control really over women's bodies. 118 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:54,250 Going into that, you can do lots of things with photographs I to be I don't want to go on dodgy ground. 119 00:12:55,860 --> 00:12:56,249 Okay. 120 00:12:56,250 --> 00:13:05,040 So first of all then when I was thinking about this presentation, something came to my mind, think I've got to begin by looking at the Somali context. 121 00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:10,860 I didn't know how much you'd know about it, and I don't want to overdo it because I'm not a geographer or a historian. 122 00:13:11,370 --> 00:13:15,930 But it seems to me that you're interested in changing character of war. 123 00:13:16,980 --> 00:13:25,740 But maybe in the Somalia case we can see changing character of the Somali context even more sharply. 124 00:13:26,250 --> 00:13:34,200 So I started with three maps, and this is the first one, and this one comes from the sort of preclear that pre independence time. 125 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,070 And it shows it's not a very great map to finish. 126 00:13:38,370 --> 00:13:47,190 This big area here shows the extent of the Somali nation of people, Somalis speaking or the Somali ethnic peoples. 127 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:57,900 And that was before the borders really have a boundary, but it was sort of the precolonial makeup of Somalia. 128 00:13:58,710 --> 00:14:02,700 And I was thinking about, well, what were the stakes? And we didn't hear about big wars. 129 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:11,930 Then we know that the clan was put into clan wars or into wars between neighbouring groups, perhaps to be more precise. 130 00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:23,100 For all life, my understanding is mostly around securing enlarged herds or securing grazing water. 131 00:14:23,460 --> 00:14:31,130 It's very much sort of ecological and environmental based about an equilibrium. 132 00:14:31,170 --> 00:14:37,409 So often when you talk to Somalis about that sort of pastoral past, 133 00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:43,920 it's it's more about rather than making conflicts is about avoiding conflicts or about mediating conflict. 134 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,110 So I'm going with that. I might be wrong, but I've not got any evidence to prove that it is wrong. 135 00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:54,900 But it's certainly that seemed to be the stage at hand at that time. 136 00:14:55,230 --> 00:15:02,550 And there are mechanisms of sort of gendered mechanisms, such as the importance of exhaustion with marriage, 137 00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:09,940 the fact the system of kinship organisation, which I'll talk a bit more about in a little while. 138 00:15:11,430 --> 00:15:16,260 To manage resources, to manage the environment as well as the social structure. 139 00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:27,870 Then the second map, this isn't a perfect map because there are things missing, but this is what that looked like after colonials had arrived. 140 00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:32,400 And you have the division between British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland, 141 00:15:32,910 --> 00:15:44,490 and it should also show you Djibouti being French Somaliland, which belonged to Ethiopia then and here, northeastern Kenya. 142 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:56,730 Somalia is divided up into five pieces by the the British, the French and the Italians then are secure. 143 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,340 What were the stakes then? You know, what was kind of going on at that point? 144 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:11,550 And like I said, I'm not the historian. Sorry, but what's interesting about this, this time, if you know about Somalia today, 145 00:16:12,330 --> 00:16:22,330 is the roots of the irredentism claims that have really driven the there in a way it spoils Somalia that 146 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:28,889 party was creating because you have the Vietnam War which ended up being quite a disaster for Somalia. 147 00:16:28,890 --> 00:16:34,530 It was all happily out of the Cold War, but this was rooted in this time and the Somalis were divided up. 148 00:16:37,470 --> 00:16:49,920 And then the last map that I found, which I thought was helpful and that of today, Somalia today, and it shows how fragmented it is. 149 00:16:50,520 --> 00:17:00,510 It's divided now into five main federal states, plus the Somaliland state, which is a claiming secession. 150 00:17:01,050 --> 00:17:09,840 And this Red Stars represent where this live conflict or where al-Shabab is remaining in control. 151 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,250 And in fact, al-Shabab retains a lot of this southern area. 152 00:17:14,670 --> 00:17:25,260 And there it seems to me that the stakes or what it sort of shows the stakes here seem to be more around state control of state resources. 153 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:37,559 And that's definitely what we'll see happening in terms of how the the the battle, if you like, for wealth, 154 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:44,310 for opportunities is through managing to capture and control what what would be resources of the state. 155 00:17:46,270 --> 00:17:55,479 Now. I don't know if I've lost you on that, but then you're I think it's it's an important reminder that there are roots right from 156 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,850 the very beginning that are still resonating today in the Somali context on many, 157 00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:16,450 many levels. So I just want to now go to see Barry's era, because from a gender perspective, the CFR a period. 158 00:18:16,570 --> 00:18:27,490 So Zebari had a bloodless coup more or less 1969, and he held Somalia under a dictatorship until 1990. 159 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:35,649 December, well, actually January 91. He operated in the Cold War period. 160 00:18:35,650 --> 00:18:39,940 He was he introduced scientific socialism to Somalia. 161 00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:51,520 And major changes were imposed through a sort of state organised, state driven system, and particular to the interest I have in gender. 162 00:18:52,990 --> 00:19:02,980 He banned kinship, he banned the whole idea of the clan tribalism and everything had to come through the state, 163 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:06,640 and he did it in a very sophisticated sort of way. 164 00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:16,150 So, for example, whereas before, you would be dependent on your kinship group for welfare, for protection. 165 00:19:16,990 --> 00:19:21,270 Now the state would provide you with insurance if you needed. 166 00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:28,220 If you got sick, who needed a funeral or remarriage, it would all happen through through the state. 167 00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:34,209 When it became illegal to talk about clans and I mean, I remember it, you know, 168 00:19:34,210 --> 00:19:38,980 when I lived in Mogadishu, people didn't refer to clan identity at all. 169 00:19:39,490 --> 00:19:45,850 I'm using talking about clans, assuming everybody knows what I'm talking about, but I will go into it in a bit more depth in a minute. 170 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,470 So he really succeeded in a way. 171 00:19:48,940 --> 00:20:01,660 Up to a point in erasing or burying, actually more than erasing, because it re-emerges in burying the most fundamental part about being Somali, 172 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:09,850 which was your dependence on your kinship group in terms of dealing with boys. 173 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:16,389 And the reason I've used this photo is because under the CFR as scientific socialism, 174 00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:23,080 fewer bald male, you have many more opportunities than if you were born into a pastoral system. 175 00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:31,800 So he is a building. The state opened up many opportunities for men and boys and to an extent for girls too. 176 00:20:31,810 --> 00:20:36,670 And women, but particularly for men. You couldn't get employment. 177 00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:40,540 You didn't have to herd camels anymore. You could go live in the urban area. 178 00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:46,720 You could become a driver, an artist, a soldier and mechanical engineer and architect. 179 00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:52,810 There's a huge gamut and that the state employed thousands and thousands of people, 180 00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:59,660 I think something like 60,000 civil servants or public public servants and. 181 00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:09,370 This slide I've just put up here because I think it's very little understood or it's not often looked 182 00:21:09,370 --> 00:21:18,070 at what's the average did for women or he tried to do for women under the scientific socialism. 183 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:27,190 Somalia became the foremost African country in terms of women's rights and women's equality. 184 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:37,479 So he introduced family laws in 1974 and 78, which made women have equal rights in marriage, inheritance, divorce, 185 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:47,950 etc. Why that's important for today's story is because it was so controversial at the time he imposed it, 186 00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:59,920 and because there was protests by religious sheiks, religious leaders, he had them executed and their execution shocked to the to the core Somalis. 187 00:22:00,550 --> 00:22:07,390 They couldn't believe that he would do that. And still today, when you talk to men of that generation. 188 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:12,129 So they're in the sixties, seventies, some of them were still telling you that. 189 00:22:12,130 --> 00:22:19,360 That's why al-Shabab is able to do what it's doing because of what it did in the name of women's equality. 190 00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:28,210 And they'll say, you know, we're never going to allow women to have those rights again because of what happened to those to those men. 191 00:22:28,510 --> 00:22:35,620 So it's a critical point in history. It's one of those sort of recurrent things also. 192 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:42,160 And people still I mean, Sapa has a very bad reputation among most people. 193 00:22:42,490 --> 00:22:52,030 But one of the things that most agree on is he introduced mass literacy and education, and that had a huge impact at the time. 194 00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:55,690 There were mass literacy campaigns during the early seventies. 195 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:04,150 He did understand through his sort of science, scientific socialism, the value and importance of having an educated population. 196 00:23:04,330 --> 00:23:10,770 Nevertheless, when I was there in 89, somebody was still at the very bottom of the world's literacy stakes. 197 00:23:10,780 --> 00:23:18,790 And today, female literacy is about 17%, even less 6% in the rural areas. 198 00:23:18,790 --> 00:23:25,900 And male literacy is is not much better. So he introduced these things, but they didn't stick. 199 00:23:28,410 --> 00:23:34,290 Okay. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm sure. 200 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:41,010 I might get you on this. All right. So now moving on to state clocks. 201 00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:45,300 It's a 1991, January 1991. 202 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,590 All of the architecture of the state. 203 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,670 This fit overnight. Completely overnight. 204 00:23:54,570 --> 00:24:02,610 There was nothing left of a new banks, the new ministries, new law courts, no police, no health centres, no schools, nothing. 205 00:24:02,820 --> 00:24:06,330 Everything just collapsed in the space of three weeks. 206 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:19,140 And as a consequence of that, I think what we found in the impact of our men study is that the state collapse in itself has and it's still look, 207 00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:26,070 it's still not been reformed. I mean, we have a Somali government, but it's got no credibility. 208 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:33,660 It doesn't actually control anything. It's it's a construction from the international community and those that it collaborates with. 209 00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:39,750 It doesn't can't operate outside Mogadishu, but it's there in name only. 210 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,100 So the actual state has never really ever been reconstructed, 211 00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:50,339 with the exception of Somaliland and Puntland, which are and I think I've missed saying that, 212 00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:56,459 but it's terribly important that there is a lot of difference depending on where you are in the 213 00:24:56,460 --> 00:25:02,850 Somali context as to how things are for the majority in the south and in southern Somalia, 214 00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:12,209 it remains without a functioning state. So the state collapse has had this massive impact and it's still being felt. 215 00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:15,870 This is over 27 years later, I think. 216 00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:30,900 So for women and this is a desperate photograph and I don't think it's untypical of the time this is in the very end, 91, 92 for women. 217 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:36,930 They lost overnight. They lost everything in terms of legal support, protection, all their rights. 218 00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:40,950 Anything that had been given to them by the state was gone completely. 219 00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:45,320 The the men, too, lost it. 220 00:25:45,330 --> 00:25:46,170 But for women, 221 00:25:46,170 --> 00:25:57,960 it was a way bigger impact in terms of legislative rights and what re-emerged and what everybody had to fall back on because there was nothing else. 222 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,880 Was the kinship system as the central organising force. 223 00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:16,080 Kinship or as we call it, clan. And that had in some ways, it had differing impacts depending on whether you were female or male. 224 00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:31,160 Now I'll talk about female. This is a picture of some Elvis actually in Galmudug, I think taken quite a few years. 225 00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:41,929 I hope they look suitably dejected. That's going to chase it because the study that we did to 20 men and we talk to women as 226 00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:50,600 well to to sort of verify it showed that state collapse has been catastrophic for for many, 227 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,560 many men. And one of the reasons was because they lost their livelihoods overnight. 228 00:26:56,570 --> 00:27:03,020 They lost assets overnight. They no longer had any status. 229 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,870 Whereas somebody might have been they might have been an accountant for the government. 230 00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:15,650 They might have been in an office or a driver for the government. Anything but everything went well if their jobs and employment. 231 00:27:15,860 --> 00:27:23,360 And we took about urbanised men here. The rural men having life more or less probably stayed stayed the same. 232 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:37,100 But we interviewed 440 men and every one of them, if they were over 40, talked about their lives being irreparably damaged by state collapse. 233 00:27:38,150 --> 00:27:42,540 They weren't. Most of them haven't been able to regain what they feel they lost. 234 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:51,980 And they've sort of you're probably familiar with the sort of stories of men being cut, addicts or mentally ill, and the rest of it. 235 00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:58,940 A lot of the men we spoke to referred to this huge blow that they incurred. 236 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,280 And it was all the greater, because if you're born male in Somali society, 237 00:28:04,550 --> 00:28:12,470 you have this expectation put on you that you are responsible, that you will provide for your family, that you will protect your family. 238 00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:18,260 And all these men couldn't do that. They lived on very zero where the state provided and protected. 239 00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:23,900 And they had absolutely no resources, resilience to to do that. 240 00:28:25,370 --> 00:28:34,489 But more perhaps more enduring maybe with the re-emergence of kingship as the 241 00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:41,300 central organising force all men and I always ask men if it's someone new to me. 242 00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:51,620 I always want to check this with everyone. All men have their lives totally circumscribed by clan loyalty, clan membership. 243 00:28:52,400 --> 00:29:00,800 So even I'm like, I am making a generalisation there because not everybody in the Somali context belongs to Clan. 244 00:29:01,580 --> 00:29:09,080 There are minority groups as well which have very different or modified systems, 245 00:29:09,770 --> 00:29:18,810 but said the majority have a patrilineal clan identity and I am hesitating to even talk about clan identity. 246 00:29:19,460 --> 00:29:24,590 Katrina and I talked about this, and if there were Somalis in this room, should they be waving the house music? 247 00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:28,900 They could speak with such an Orientalist viewpoint and the rest of it. 248 00:29:28,910 --> 00:29:37,549 So I'm using it tentatively. And I think for me what helps think about Clan is it's somebody somebody like to think about. 249 00:29:37,550 --> 00:29:41,060 That's how they think in terms of clan identity. 250 00:29:41,060 --> 00:29:45,410 But it's not something that people will talk about openly, and I don't want to express it, 251 00:29:45,410 --> 00:29:50,190 and they definitely don't want to talk about it with foreigners unless they know you quite well. 252 00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:53,990 So, you know, this is in parenthesis kind of thing. 253 00:29:56,030 --> 00:30:07,130 But what we were hearing and it was from young men, older men, middle men from Richmond for everybody, I mean, since state collapse, 254 00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:20,690 your only source of opportunity protection wealth is through your kinship group, through your your clansmen, basically, or your kinsmen. 255 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:31,219 And you can't step outside that. You can't live in an area where they're not living because you're not safe and you can't oppose them either. 256 00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:34,490 You have to comply. Compliance is a very important part of that. 257 00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:41,210 Being male, there are leaders and there are followers and you need to be one of those. 258 00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:43,800 Otherwise, you're not you're not fitting in. 259 00:30:44,810 --> 00:30:56,690 So for a young man, I don't know how those guys sort of 1516 Wednesday collapse happened, how they must feel. 260 00:30:56,690 --> 00:31:07,370 But since 91, if you're a youth, your adulthood may not kick in until you're 30 or even in some parts of Somalia, 35. 261 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:14,180 All that time, you're you're kept as a subordinate within the sort of community of men that you're part of. 262 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,790 And this is so different. On the contrary, by the time you were 18, you could, you know, you were considered adult. 263 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:23,180 So male adulthood is. 264 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:31,460 Delayed and men have tried to stay if they had a job, if they managed to get into some kind of new governance system that was being set up. 265 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:35,470 They've held on to it. They haven't wanted to sort of retire and pass it on. 266 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:44,750 So there's a there's a really big issue around civil service, retirement packages and things that don't exist but should exist. 267 00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:51,709 We also found the inequality between men, I mean, between men and women. 268 00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:59,150 We expected and found that between men themselves. We saw that it has expanded with state collapse and with the wars. 269 00:31:59,780 --> 00:32:10,399 And this goes beyond the sort of traditional marginalised groups that live in Somalia who are traditionally customarily excluded, 270 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:21,500 marginalised, unable to access the same opportunities as the men from majority clans except on Safari, which is interesting. 271 00:32:24,050 --> 00:32:29,270 Now this inequality around wealth in particular, 272 00:32:31,550 --> 00:32:40,280 and your access to any kind of resources and if you don't have if you're from a small plan, for example, 273 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:47,150 which doesn't have very many men in it, because clan size is all dependent on the number of men that it has, 274 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,410 then you've got less opportunity, less access to opportunities. 275 00:32:53,540 --> 00:33:03,049 Powerful men can exploit these divisions and they are exploiting them and they perpetuate male vulnerabilities. 276 00:33:03,050 --> 00:33:06,050 And I can talk about that. I'm conscious about the time. 277 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:19,999 I think importantly, what we were hearing was that it's a new form of male hegemony and it's one that's based on wealth and control of resources. 278 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:26,959 Whereas in the past, under the sort of pastoral system, you were just an esteemed male. 279 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:34,670 You're part of the sort of the men in need. If you could demonstrate wisdom, you had a great knowledge of choose prudence. 280 00:33:34,970 --> 00:33:44,120 If you have good to if you are a good prime mediator, if you are generous, all these highly esteemed qualities, they're out. 281 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,710 They don't matter anything anymore if they do inside people's heads. 282 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:58,040 But what matters in terms of being able to gain power and control is is to have access to wealth that you may have got because you're a pirate. 283 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,169 It may be that you've become a warlord. It may be that you've been a diaspora member who's gone back. 284 00:34:03,170 --> 00:34:08,270 And a lot of diaspora are young and they're in the government and they're able 285 00:34:08,270 --> 00:34:14,719 to exert a lot of influence because they can get other men to support them, 286 00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:17,720 because they can pay for them or they can give them access to jobs. 287 00:34:18,530 --> 00:34:24,140 So there's been a huge shift in terms of that sort of male power. 288 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:29,200 Okay. Just I'm going to take time and really get the issue to. 289 00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:37,610 Okay. Right. Are we through this? I don't know if you want to know about this, but I think this is quite critical, really. 290 00:34:38,030 --> 00:34:43,459 And I've told you my reservations about you can talk about the current system, 291 00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:48,650 but I think you need to know if we're talking about gender in the clan system, how it's gendered. 292 00:34:49,070 --> 00:35:00,920 So it's different if you're born female, if if you're born male in some very fundamental ways, if you're born male, clan identity is patrilineal. 293 00:35:01,010 --> 00:35:06,260 So it's through your father. Sorry, this isn't clear, but this is male relatives through your mother. 294 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:19,130 If you're born, then you're only really strong relationships that you can trust and depend on with your father's clans for your kinsmen. 295 00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:25,520 Yeah, that's the only group who you belong to, who you can trust, 296 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:31,009 who you can build things with, etc. You have connections with your mother's relatives, 297 00:35:31,010 --> 00:35:39,440 but they're very weak and it's really mainly your mother and her brothers that you could sort of sometimes get protection from, 298 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:55,400 but it's not guaranteed. On the other hand, if you're female, you have multiple networks, multiple points of relationships that you can benefit from. 299 00:35:55,910 --> 00:36:00,559 So you have the Senate, you have your paternal clan. You're very that's your very strongest. 300 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,450 That's who you identify the most with. But at the same time, you are linked to your maternal clan. 301 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:11,810 You can go to them. You're link to your husband's clan because your children who belong to your husband's clan. 302 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,880 So there are also people that you can reach out to that you have a bond with. 303 00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:22,520 You can even become connected to your son in Laws Clan. 304 00:36:23,410 --> 00:36:27,900 The main ones are paternal, the husbands and the maternal clans. 305 00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:37,150 But compared to a man, you have many more opportunities in terms of relationships and protection. 306 00:36:37,180 --> 00:36:40,600 Although your main protection will always be with your paternal count. 307 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:46,600 You can still live in your husband's clan area during the conflict or before in your mother's. 308 00:36:47,890 --> 00:36:52,090 Now, the reason I've put this up here is because, believe it or not, 309 00:36:53,560 --> 00:37:01,690 this really helps to understand so much about the state of into an intra clan conflict. 310 00:37:01,870 --> 00:37:09,010 In summer, in Somali society, how it comes about, the agonies that it produces, 311 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:15,460 the the terrible, appalling suffering that it creates, that family level. 312 00:37:16,510 --> 00:37:20,740 Because if you imagine this marriage is the preferred marriage. 313 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,590 So girls are brought up in the expectation that they will marry the enemy. 314 00:37:27,010 --> 00:37:28,280 That's how it's described. 315 00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:35,320 Girls, girls and their values, that they're loved and they're important, but they're not as important as boys because girls would be the enemy. 316 00:37:35,740 --> 00:37:41,229 Whereas the boys will stay in the American importance in your plan and they go to the enemy, 317 00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:50,710 because that's the way to expand your your group's grazing is sort of the historical reasons for it. 318 00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:55,960 So they're a very important political tool, if you like. 319 00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:03,880 The wars that we've seen or the very violent conflicts that we've seen in, 320 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,840 particularly throughout southern Somalia, but also in Somaliland and Puntland, 321 00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:16,450 have have been made worse because a woman's husband will be fighting her brothers, her father, 322 00:38:17,170 --> 00:38:22,910 her son will be possibly being killed by her brothers, by her father's relatives. 323 00:38:22,930 --> 00:38:28,000 It's it's been at that level into family conflicts. 324 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:35,060 It also means that why women are excluded from political settlements, 325 00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:44,300 from politics so fiercely by men is because men say, well, you can't trust the women because politics is clan based. 326 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:50,530 Since 1991, everything is decided according to numbers, quotas, 4.5 system. 327 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,470 If you're a man, you know exactly who you're going to side with, who you'll vote with. 328 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:04,630 It's always going to be you that you can be trusted. If you're a woman who you tend to side with, who will you be loyal to? 329 00:39:04,930 --> 00:39:08,680 Will you be your father's clan? Husband's clan? Maybe your mother's clan. 330 00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:15,610 So men don't want to know about women coming into politics because they can't count on their votes. 331 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:22,950 And it's all about numbers. So this is actually very important to understand. 332 00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:32,490 Even if we don't sort of want to think too deeply, we get too attached to to to clan as a kind of defining term. 333 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,780 I'm almost at the end of, what, two more slides? 334 00:39:36,780 --> 00:39:40,980 I think you're okay. Yeah, very patient. 335 00:39:44,430 --> 00:39:53,190 So that the last step, the last two steps, so you could see a very steep collapse in the aftermath. 336 00:39:53,970 --> 00:40:01,650 State building huge project to the international community since that really since 91. 337 00:40:01,650 --> 00:40:05,370 I mean I think anyone that's followed the history as well knows that it's been very intermittent. 338 00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:13,530 It really kicked in after 911 and everybody was sort of panicked by the thought that Somalia was going to be a haven for terrorists. 339 00:40:14,850 --> 00:40:20,760 So huge amounts of investment. I happen to be part of the Somalia Stability Fund on the agenda. 340 00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:28,110 So conclusion advisor but I'm wary of this. You know, the whole concept that you can rebuild this state. 341 00:40:28,410 --> 00:40:34,290 I'm not sure myself how that will happen and I don't see it yet. 342 00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:41,460 As to keep raising the stakes. And I think that refers back to those three maps. 343 00:40:41,780 --> 00:40:47,129 You know what's at stake because of the way that state building has been pinned 344 00:40:47,130 --> 00:40:53,670 on to the idea of clan and clan composition and clan numbers and 4.5 system. 345 00:40:54,390 --> 00:41:03,720 If you can win it, you win. Everything is like the winner takes all approach, which is so different to how it was in the pastoral past. 346 00:41:04,260 --> 00:41:14,880 So these ideas that people are operating with today come from a completely different context, from the sort of idea that 60 years ago and beyond, 347 00:41:15,330 --> 00:41:20,790 when you're talking about sort of conflicts over camels and over a bit of grass, 348 00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:26,939 now it's everything's different port and you'll be aware of all the transnational dimensions. 349 00:41:26,940 --> 00:41:36,570 Now to the Somali conflict with Dubai and UAE and Qatar really sort of been playing around a lot and Ethiopia and Kenya. 350 00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:42,929 Yeah. I mean, there's so much international interest at stake, the terrible photo. 351 00:41:42,930 --> 00:41:49,440 But this is an amazing photo. This is taken at the inauguration of the parliamentarians. 352 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,690 I think it was the I think it was this last election. 353 00:41:54,690 --> 00:41:56,850 I think it was Hassan Schiff's selection. 354 00:41:57,630 --> 00:42:05,430 But it's amazing pictures taken by Axum and it's on the front cover of a paper that I'll give you the link to which I wrote, 355 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:13,680 which is called Somalia A State of Male Power, Male Inequality and male insecurity doesn't fit male. 356 00:42:13,740 --> 00:42:23,430 That's the end function. And I've put it here because one of the I think one of the real gaps in understanding 357 00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:28,500 or thinking in terms of the international policymakers and community in all of this, 358 00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:34,800 they're really not looking on the ground what's happening, what the realities are for men or for women. 359 00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:44,970 And I'll talk about that. You know, men are the elite and they are holding the power in so many ways. 360 00:42:45,630 --> 00:42:52,200 But there are also such inequalities between men. Only this time, 14,000 men got to vote. 361 00:42:52,740 --> 00:42:59,340 There's no universal suffrage yet in Somalia. Previous times, it's been about 1000 men who got to choose the parliamentarians. 362 00:42:59,790 --> 00:43:08,550 This time it's 14,000, 25 or something. So there's a huge inequality, but there's also massive insecurity. 363 00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:12,360 And I think that insecurity goes right back to the state collapse. 364 00:43:12,690 --> 00:43:19,780 So if you're male, you've been living in what I've described. 365 00:43:19,780 --> 00:43:24,359 When I talk to the Met, I think it's correct to call it existential insecurity. 366 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,880 I think that's the right term, the same for women, but they have different forms of insecurity. 367 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:39,810 So if you're a man, you've not only been a potential target in a sex selective massacre and there's massacres have continued throughout. 368 00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:48,900 We've put testimony from mothers who talked about hiding their children, dressing their voices, girls wasted, losing their menfolk. 369 00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:59,030 You've been proxies potentially, and you still are potentially subject to being forcibly recruited into armed groups, including al-Shabab. 370 00:43:59,050 --> 00:44:01,650 It could be your clan militia. It could be another militia. 371 00:44:02,490 --> 00:44:13,080 And perhaps most pernicious of all is the re-emergence of revenge killing, which has not been researched. 372 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,629 I have to say, I mean, nobody's really looking at it. 373 00:44:15,630 --> 00:44:23,700 And yet it's a very strong determinant of medal opportunities or a constraint on male opportunities. 374 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:30,300 And when we did our research, we didn't expect it. We haven't kind of thought about it, I have to be honest. 375 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:36,000 But it was coming through from many of the areas that we did a field work. 376 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:43,140 In fact, one place that we visited the fund was when the research was turned out, there were no men. 377 00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:55,050 No young men visible in the whole town because they were under a revenge killing feud and they'd all been sent out to the rural areas to hide. 378 00:44:56,190 --> 00:45:07,650 The consequences of that for men, but also for women who have to step in and enter the public domain in order to fulfil the livelihood needs, etc. 379 00:45:07,950 --> 00:45:13,530 But tremendous men can't move between one space and another space freely. 380 00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:17,370 They can't look for work in a different part of Somalia. 381 00:45:17,370 --> 00:45:20,820 They are trapped in the areas where they feel safest. 382 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:33,480 I think the the way that state building is being undertaken doesn't really is not cognisant of these kind of details. 383 00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:42,540 And it's kind of focusing so much on the elites that suggests to get rid of the elite seriously, the other good of elites. 384 00:45:42,540 --> 00:45:45,900 And this is all still happening on the ground. It's not going to go away. 385 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,220 And it's something quite different, the different approach. I don't have it before anybody else. 386 00:45:50,220 --> 00:45:54,060 I mean, I don't know what bridge. I do want to just say. 387 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,380 Yes. I wanted to bring in. Okay. 388 00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:07,559 At this point, talking about insecurity. So to mention the male insecurity, the revenge killing, of course, is the female forms of insecurity. 389 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,980 And insecurity we've seen is so gendered, so different. 390 00:46:12,510 --> 00:46:21,959 And you will all be aware of the international attention on sexual, gender based violence, rape, etc. That has been through the Somali context. 391 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,050 And many Somalis are very sensitive about that. 392 00:46:25,050 --> 00:46:26,340 They feel it's overblown. 393 00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:37,350 But, you know, there's no doubt that sexual, gender based violence is a is a it was it was a taboo before, but it's definitely out there in a big way. 394 00:46:39,870 --> 00:46:47,040 I wanted to show you what we've learned in terms of if you're male. 395 00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:53,800 What's expected of you. Again. 396 00:46:56,590 --> 00:47:02,829 Because I'm trying to understand how you create that into clan or intra clan conflict, 397 00:47:02,830 --> 00:47:07,990 which our research has shown is it's not easy to get men to go fight each other. 398 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:15,850 It's not easy to get man's good his uncle or Cliff's his nephew or whatever, because it seems. 399 00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:20,110 Manhood isn't predicated on violence in the Somali context. 400 00:47:20,980 --> 00:47:29,620 You're not esteemed. If you're violent, you know, you're certainly disrespected if your your found to be violent or oppressive to women or girls. 401 00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:34,360 Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But this is the sort of the normative the social norms. 402 00:47:37,530 --> 00:47:41,270 Manhood is is defined by people as a responsibility. 403 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:46,710 In fact, a lot of people said you're responsible after all, love and all is the ultimate, 404 00:47:46,860 --> 00:47:54,360 and then it's mine and your responsibility to for your family and for your clan and for those two entities, 405 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,900 you must do anything you can, which is where the violence comes in. 406 00:47:59,860 --> 00:48:10,530 Now, if you're female, what we've learned from the life and peace study is that women have a very important role, 407 00:48:10,530 --> 00:48:14,580 a critical role in the construction of intrusion into clan warfare. 408 00:48:14,910 --> 00:48:23,460 And it seems and we're still validating this and doing extra study, but it seems partly it's a response to vulnerability to violence. 409 00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:31,890 So women are seeking and trying to make men seek revenge, get dominance, claim clan supremacy, 410 00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:41,730 because that's the only way a woman can be protected in this state, this society, if her clan is is holding all the reins. 411 00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:48,090 So women are instrumental in instrumentalize and have multiple roles in violence. 412 00:48:48,090 --> 00:48:54,030 And we've documented this. And I would urge you, if you're interested, to take a look, I've got a listed I mean, 413 00:48:54,030 --> 00:48:59,790 they canvas for war, they promote it, they fundraise for it, they'll sell the house. 414 00:48:59,790 --> 00:49:07,980 They go all women. But these are the the the the majority in the places that we've studied, 415 00:49:08,970 --> 00:49:16,140 they'll provide logistical support in the form of food and milk, water, even air time, things like that. 416 00:49:17,310 --> 00:49:23,190 Most, perhaps most importantly, they mobilise men, and so they push them into fight. 417 00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:26,079 They push their boys and their husbands to to get out there. 418 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:32,639 And we have some very graphic descriptions of how they do that using humiliation, taking off their clothes. 419 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,879 These are not exclusive to the summary content. 420 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,840 You find this in other similar contexts. 421 00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:50,220 They ferment to a feather. They'll use poetry, then use songs of love for his custodians or they seem to be. 422 00:49:50,250 --> 00:49:56,010 Now, this is something that I'm suggesting and I am not sure about it, but it seems that they are. 423 00:49:56,310 --> 00:50:02,460 They play a role of holding on to grievances, remembering grievances, 424 00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:09,149 and bringing them up when they feel most vulnerable so they can be agents of cleanliness and custodians. 425 00:50:09,150 --> 00:50:11,850 And it seems to be the talisman is playing a very, 426 00:50:11,850 --> 00:50:20,759 very important part in the sort of concept of getting mobilisation is being used by warlords, whatever. 427 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,749 But it certainly seems hugely important. We haven't done the research on it. 428 00:50:24,750 --> 00:50:35,580 So that's kind of tentative and definitely they seem essential in producing the violent masculinities because it's not there without them. 429 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:41,700 And we heard men say, you, we need women, we need them on the battlefield to sing to us. 430 00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:48,569 We're too afraid. You know, we can't stay that and this that the singing is so and I've just found this. 431 00:50:48,570 --> 00:50:54,870 This is a chilling 100 shilling note currency from 1989 from Mogadishu. 432 00:50:56,230 --> 00:51:02,730 And I don't know if you can see it very well, but this kind of image of a woman, a pastoral woman, 433 00:51:02,730 --> 00:51:09,390 because she's dressed in traditional pastoral dress, she's brandishing a rifle in one hand and a spade in the. 434 00:51:11,070 --> 00:51:18,780 Women are so split between clans. Can you just finish the presentation and then go to the end? 435 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,180 You can know other women of a. I think I think we have time to get this about. 436 00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:28,950 Yeah, I am very late. You can ask me. Is it yet? 437 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:34,740 We don't know. But we are told that with it depends on where the fight is. 438 00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:37,799 So if it's with their family, 439 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:45,750 I think you have Christian was the women's side with their father's clan or with their mother's clan or encouraging them either? 440 00:51:45,930 --> 00:51:51,360 Yeah. It seems counterintuitive. Yeah, I totally agree with you. 441 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,120 I mean, we haven't got the full picture yet, 442 00:51:54,420 --> 00:52:00,360 but it definitely seems that whereas the father's clan against the husbands, they side with their fathers. 443 00:52:01,340 --> 00:52:04,880 Yeah. Even that may mean giving up their sons. 444 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:14,629 And that happens. And we've got life stories collected from women who say, I divorced him, I left my children because it because it's so huge. 445 00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:16,820 It's so massive to to do that. 446 00:52:16,850 --> 00:52:24,230 If it's in a situation where it's a third plan, then they would probably be with their husbands and their sons, I imagine. 447 00:52:24,620 --> 00:52:35,000 But yeah, so just I tweeted this just to show it goes back into sort of the history that women have a very important symbolic role. 448 00:52:35,060 --> 00:52:43,040 And we now know it's more than symbolic in terms of being agitators and supporters and stuff. 449 00:52:44,450 --> 00:52:47,400 I'm sorry. No, no, no. That's good. Thank you.