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I'm happy that I've been able to somehow bring all three of these entities in Oxford together.

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I've been teaching on the Masters Program of International Human Rights and Cruel Summer School Program.

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The course of international criminal law. And I know how difficult it is for Oxford people to talk to Oxford people more or less project.

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So I'm happy to act as a force field of convergence for, if nothing else, just for today.

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So we are going to be speaking. I'm going to be speaking, as a matter of fact.

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And hopefully you'll be speaking afterwards with some questions about the Lubanga case.

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But let me give a tiny bit of truth in lending.

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I'm using the bank as a pretext to speak about something else.

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But first, let's start with Lubanga was the first case at the International Criminal Court.

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And as you know now, it concluded in May of 2012, which almost makes it an ancient case.

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But since there is no other completed case that led to a conviction, one can still get a little bit of leeway still out of Lubanga.

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And Lubanga is still said I was convicted.

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He was convicted for conscription and enlistment of child soldiers.

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And I'm going to use that term. And I know that the politically correct term is children associated with armed forces or armed groups.

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But I'm going to shorthand child soldiers.

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He was convicted of enlisting in conscripting child soldiers and also convicted of using children to participate actively in the hostilities.

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Now, Mr. Lubanga was the president of the Union of Patriotic Congolese, which is, well, one can say an armed group or a militia or a political group.

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But let's say it was a non-state entity.

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And as president, during a very short interim period, two or three years, he had to raise their fighting forces.

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And for him, a way that he could do that that was expedient and that would have loyal fighters was to enlist and conscript children.

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Now, Mr. Lubanga was in charge of this military wing.

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He raised the level of combatants.

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And at the trial he was convicted and sentenced to 14 years.

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And the reactions is that a lot? Is that enough? Is that not enough? The judgement in terms of the sentencing is on appeal at this very moment.

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The Lubanga case was important for many reasons, but among those it's the first case that really gives us a decision concerning victims reparations.

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And as you know, the International Criminal Court,

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very different from the ad hoc tribunals or the special court for Sierra Leone, has victim representation.

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There were about 129 victims who testified from their own legal base with their own legal counsel.

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About 34 were girls, 93 were boys or had been girls and boys during the time period of this conflict.

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And the reparations decisions has been hailed as being a first,

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although has been controversial a bit in terms of the actual content of the reparations.

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But these child soldiers who came to testify, they had to meet a benchmark of having themselves suffered because of the accused Lubanga.

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There were other types of reparations that were more generalised to the community,

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but these child soldiers suffered in relationship to acts that the Bonga had committed.

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There are also some very important international humanitarian law holdings regarding these crimes.

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And let me go over them for you quite briefly. And as I said, I'm setting the scene.

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First of all, conscription or enlistment are two different aspects of how children can become part of an armed group.

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Conscription is this notion that the child comes up and wants to be part of the group.

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And enlistment is somewhere where the child has been enlisted, recruited.

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And we all know from our own layperson's life you go to, you know, enlist or enrol in the army.

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Conscription is, you know, I'll join in sometime.

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We use the word recruitment to kind of cover both of those concepts.

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Well, one of the things that the court found and remember, we're talking about persons under 15 years of age because under customary national law and

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under the explicit provisions of the Rome Statute and under the additional protocols,

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child soldiers are persons who are 15 years of age or younger.

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Now, why why cut off in 15 for you historians is a lot of historical reasons that that occurs during last century.

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A lot of people left school after the equivalent the United States of eighth grade.

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Even today, the Mennonites. Quakers and I, not the Quakers.

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I come from outside of Philadelphia, but the Amish are allowed to leave school after eighth grade.

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That's considered a reasonable age at which you take on responsibilities of manhood.

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And that's slightly where we have this descended concept of 15, and below are children.

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After 15, you're an adult. But now international human rights law and criminal law seem to be moving that age toward 18.

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For example, the special court for Sierra Leone was allowed to try persons who were children.

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The prosecutor took the decision not to under a convention for the rights of the child.

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The child is someone up until the age of 18 years old and under the Optional Protocol for the Convention

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for the Rights of the Child we're looking at 18 and below would be considered a child soldier.

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But right now we're caught in that in-between netherworld.

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So when I'm talking about child soldiers today, I'm talking about persons who are 15 years of age or younger.

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Okay? So these 15 younger than 15 year old were conscripted or enlisted.

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And what the court held was that these were continuous crimes,

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meaning that when you're conscripted or when you enlist, the crime doesn't happen that moment and stop.

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It's not an act. The crime continues until you become 15 and therefore you're no longer a child or until you are no longer part of the armed group.

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Irrespective of how you leave or disengage yourself or due to death, your crime stops at death and you might die before you reach the age of 15.

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So conscription analysts are continuing crimes.

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They're not one off crimes.

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Hold that notion. The other thing that the court found is that children cannot consent.

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Cannot consent to be enlisted or conscripted is no contradiction.

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You just said conscription was when you joined voluntarily.

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Well, the court held that a child is psychologically too immature to consent to either conscription or enlistment.

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And were they psychologically immature about about death?

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They really can't conceive of what it is to die and what it is to cause other persons to die.

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In this psychological immaturity, the court says, means that consent is just it's evidentiary going to be present, but it's legally it's irrelevant.

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So therefore, Mr. Obama could not say, well, he consented, she she agreed to be a soldier.

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Okay. And then the last thing I'd like to tell you in terms of the legal holdings was that used to participate actively.

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We have really three different crimes, but two different crimes.

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Conscription and enlistment or the use of children participate actively in hostilities and used to participate actively in hostilities.

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Doesn't presuppose that you've been enlisted or recruited.

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You can just spontaneously be used to participate actively in hostilities, and that in itself is a crime.

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Okay, so there are three crimes and the chamber used a sliding scale of finding out whether your participation was direct or indirect.

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Did your participation put you directly in the way of harm or was it indirect participation and therefore you were not directly in the way of harm?

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And the harm I'm talking about is what is the harm from the opposing or the enemy side being able to be targeted,

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being a military objective as opposed to being a civilian object.

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I'm speaking to all people here. Right.

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So when the court is looking about active participation, placing children, using them, they did an indirect or direct type of test.

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So those are some of them, I think interesting holdings and very notable holdings in a longer case.

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Now, let me tell you some of the things that were not in the Alabama case.

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One of the things not in Alabama case was sexual violence. Oh, yes, there was evidence of sexual violence.

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It was just battering out.

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Almost every other child soldier who got up spoke about sexual violence, but it had not been charged, had not been legally characterised.

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He was not taken into consideration. So therefore,

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sexual violence was not part of the deliberation to find out factually or legally to determine whether someone had been conscripted or enlisted.

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We didn't say, oh, this person was sexually violent. That is evidence of conscription or enlistment.

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Sexual violence was not part of the observations or the holding to find out whether that was part of an ongoing nature of any of these crimes.

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Sexual violence was not used in the determination of whether a child had been used to participate actively in hostilities directly or indirectly.

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Well, how would this come up? I think if any of you read the Lubanga case,

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you'll see that there's a vociferous dissent in particularly talking about girls who were in the Army who were used as sexual predators.

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You know, I don't think you may recall these inverted commas.

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Right. Were they not being used to participate?

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Was this actively being used participate? Was this direct harm or indirect harm?

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So the other thing about the Lubanga case is that had originally been charged as an international armed conflict,

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but the judges decided that they were going to classify or characterise a conflict as a non international armed conflict,

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i.e. are common article three internal armed conflict.

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So there you have in very broad strokes.

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Lubanga had a bit of his holdings. But I'd like to talk about the absence of Lubanga, the absence of sexual violence evidence.

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And I think that in this absence, that was really the source of an outcry when the charging first came down.

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But as I said afterwards, when the judge video Benita from Costa Rica led her dissent,

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I find this absence of the charges to be some were revelatory and allows us to take a little bit of a hypothetical,

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not leap, but what I would call an exploration the absence of sexual violence.

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But also if we could re-imagine Lubanga as an international armed conflict and not a non international armed conflict.

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The question that a jury we need to raise is in the dissent becomes quite pertinent.

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She says, How could you not take sexual violence into account when you're measuring whether the

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children were harmed directly or indirectly because of the spirit of the Rome Statute?

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It's about. Protecting civilians, children, women, and anyone who has an access to war crimes against humanity.

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Protecting them. Are we only concerned about protection from the other side, them not being targeted?

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Or should we be concerned about them being protected from their own side?

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She asks us in some ways to look at what I call the Andy Warhol, you know, negative portraits.

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You know, what does that blue stripe really mean? And Sophia Loren face, you know, or Jackie Onassis face.

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And it is that opposite that's going to reveal something. I think that's quite telling.

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If we look at international armed conflict, it makes us say that the feminist critique of international law is very present,

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because the feminist critique makes us look at questions of gender what happens to girls, women, boys and men?

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It makes us look at the very foundations and structures of international humanitarian law and ask certain questions.

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And generally we need to was asking really from her point of view.

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But I think we can say from a theoretical feminist critique of international monitoring law, what is your law for if it's not to protect humans?

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Well, let's let's say this way, because we know really Hayley or other from his critique who told us that feminism take a break right now.

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She says, Well, feminist theory is kind of like all broken up.

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We can only give maybe a partial critique and we have some very imperfect and partial insights.

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Hilary Charlesworth has been telling us that, look, we feminist serious, we like to talk, but we're basically talking with ourselves.

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Either no one else is listening or no one else is interested in our conversation.

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And that's why today I'm very happy that I have three different entities that aren't necessarily feminists,

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because I'd like to broaden this conversation about the very structural foundations of international monitoring law,

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looking at it from a feminist lens. And that's why I call this speech beyond gender, beyond gender with the child soldiers.

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So now that the truce is up, what am I here to talk about?

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I'm here to question. Under international armed conflict.

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Is our abiding paradigm, meaning that a war crime has to be committed by one party against the soldiers or

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nationals of another party with the presumption that they have a different nationality.

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I mean, that's what war crimes are about, right? Geneva one, two, three, four.

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One state has reciprocal obligations to the other states in terms of protected persons.

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And where does a child combatant fall within this realm of protection?

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Well, when you look at it quite closely, this reciprocity from Geneva does already have a couple little cracks in it.

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Remember, when we go from the 1949 conventions to the additional protocols in 1977,

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we're already willing to say, okay, international armed conflict is not always international armed conflict.

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Okay, we will allow and colonialism wars of colonial struggles for allowing wars of liberation wars against apartheid.

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These can all now be considered under the rules of international armed conflict.

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And technically,

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those wars could have a war crime committed by a party against a national or a person who is from their same citizen group or national group.

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How how how you say how do you do colonialism? Let's take the easy, not easy example of Algeria.

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The Algerian war, France fought against Algerian citizenships, but part of the Algerian citizenry,

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such as the Algerian Jews, have been declared French citizens.

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But war crimes could have been committed against them because,

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a it was a colonial war and we weren't going to make the type distinction of the other, the enemy being from a different state.

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And the same holds true holds true if there is a war in terms of apartheid.

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Apartheid usually happens within one state. So this paradigm of war crimes are always against the enemy.

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National already has a little bit of lessening a little bit, as I would call cracks or zeroes.

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But the issue I want to bring up is slightly different.

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It's not your Tadic issue where you have wars that could be internationalised,

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meaning that Serbia has been effectively controlling Serb scope and has internationalised servicemen's war against Bosnia.

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Then you could say all this the Serbs,

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the Bosnian Serbs are really not from the same nationality as the Bosnians because they've been internationalised by Serbia.

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My case is a little bit harder and some, I think, a bit more compelling.

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I'm talking about child soldiers who ostensibly come from the same side as the armed group for which they're fighting or which they're apart.

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And the fundamental question becomes, what happens when you commit a crime against a child soldier from your own side, a war crime, not just a crime.

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Okay. Now, let's just walk the child soldier back, because at this point, we have to admit at least two things.

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Under international law, armed conflict, that child soldier is a combatant.

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Under international armed conflict, there might be some varying differences. And non-international armed conflict is a child soldier fighter?

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Is everyone a fighter, a non fighter, a civilian under non-international armed conflict.

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But under international conflict, it's fairly clear that the child soldier on set recruited, meaning conscripted or enlisted or a combatant.

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And proof of that is that therefore they come under Geneva one.

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I mean, if they're, you know, wounded or sick on land, I don't know what you mean, child soldiers who are out at sea.

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But I think Robert was bringing up over lunch about pirates, young pirates who might be child soldiers, depending on the configuration.

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So maybe Geneva two could apply to them the shipwrecked.

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We might have child soldiers sort of shipwrecked. And certainly child soldiers can become prisoners of war with all of the rights and

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duties that a state who's holding them would bow if they did become a prisoner of war.

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And child soldiers might maybe only be used in hostilities who aren't really soldiers could come under the fourth convention.

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So their protection is very classical, very common, protected under 1 to 3 or four as combatants.

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Now, does that give leeway for them being protected against their own side?

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Now it is possible that you could say that.

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Well. Well, you think it's incongruous?

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They don't need to be protected against their own side because that's what you have the military code for.

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That's what you have internal discipline for. If their own side does something to them, then you know what will turn and find out.

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But would we call that infraction? But that's we're going to rule far and saying that's a war crime.

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I think so. Yeah. Stop right there, Petty. You know, let's stop this.

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But then you would say, do you mean the very fact that their situation is recognised as illegal under international law?

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The fact that they've been conscripted, they've been enlisted, they're very in situ illegality now prevents any other illegality occurring

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from them from the same side that has given them or made them in situ illegal.

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Your perpetrator can only one crime upon you, and that's conscripting or enlisting you or abusing you in hostilities.

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And after that, your perpetrator is no longer a perpetrator of the same category.

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Well, in the special court for Sierra Leone, the prosecution versus CSA, the court said yes.

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Yeah, that's that's exactly right. That's what we're saying. It said that it would be inappropriate.

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It would be a re conceptualisation of the fundamental principle of international monitoring law

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to make the perpetrator guilty of other crimes against child soldiers other than conscription,

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enlistment and use. And I ask you just to take maybe 2 seconds and think a bit about the types of

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crimes that the perpetrator could perpetrate under this continued illegality.

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If child soldiers stay for a day, five years, ten years.

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And the crime configuration that I want to talk about is the sexual violence.

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Just to give us a window on what type of illegality could we be talking about?

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Illegality, this it's recognised that says as a war crime.

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And I put forward that the sexual violence that occurs with child soldiers is at this

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point in time something that we have not fully or completely explored or been aware of.

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And I would propose two systems that I see operating in child soldiers.

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Many people seem to be aware that girls are often used to be in quotes, and I hate this linguistic camouflage.

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Bush wives has nothing to do with being a wife.

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It doesn't matter. The foliage that you were around that girls are often enslaved and part of their enslavement is continual sexual access.

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And many of those girls stay with the armed group and have children.

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So we have some forced populations, forced breeding going on.

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Many of these girls are susceptible to early abortions, spontaneous abortions, death by birth.

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They're susceptible even if they do not complete births, miscarriages, fistulas, in other words, maiming of their intestinal organs.

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And they are under a continual related psychological strain of just being a young child, having a child, I mean, susceptible to rape.

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How this often works within girl children in the West Africa scenario is that they

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are picked up and picked out not just by the soldiers but by the boy soldiers.

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They go to girls who they know who are easier to follow them.

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And after in the beginning, they're kept in some type of sexual pool,

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kind of like the secretarial pool from the Madmen movies or Mad Men TV shows we

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watch and the man gets to go by and pick out with secretarial work on this project.

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So for men in the armed groups that don't have a Bush wife, they often pick these girls out of the pool for sexual assault,

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and then the girls are put back in the pool for the next sexual assault.

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And if they're, in quotes, lucky in inverted commas, again for survival sex,

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they might hope to want to be attached to one male in a group and hopefully the male that has the most power,

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which means that they'll become more exclusively that males property and slavery

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is exercising the powers of ownership over someone and not have to be raped,

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gang raped, forced pregnancies by other men.

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Often when militias who are comrades, they will share this pool of women among them, and often this pool of young girls.

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I shouldn't say women. Young girls will be used to reward, but also to punish soldiers who have not performed duties.

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And that's the girl sign. But feminism want to make us look at a gender lens.

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What about the boys? What about the sexual violence in the boys?

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Well, obviously, boys are raped.

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Boys are forced to perform fellatio, but even more vicious than that.

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Young boys quickly learn that they are in a male dominated group that has a

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sexual hierarchy and they look and see how does this sexual hierarchy perform?

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The top people in the sexual hierarchy can have their own Bush wife and children.

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The lower people in the sexual hierarchy, the lower boys don't even have access to the sexual secretarial pool.

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And if you want to in any way engage in survivor sexual acts or techniques or conduct as a perpetrator or as a sexual assault victims that survivor,

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you as a boy better learn those codes right away. You better learn how to rape when you're on mission and bring women back to the pool grove.

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You need to show your skills, whether it be killing or looting, so that you can start to have access to the pool,

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that you can inflict sexual harm in order to make your masculinity go up and therefore possibly have access to more girls.

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And as your military rank goes up and your sexual prowess goes up.

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It's every wolf and it's interlinked until you can have your own Bush wife or set of wives and children.

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So that's the harm I'm talking about coming from the same side.

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So that goes back to the question. The fact that you were in an illegal situation of having been enlisted and conscripted, therefore,

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is stop any other legality that the perpetrator thinks of you and that in situ situation canal do in terms of other forms

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and I view sexual violence as an example but it could be killing other forms of maiming or any of the other war crimes.

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Now when we get back to our international monitoring role paradigm, the answer, of course, is no.

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Even though all the sexual assault conduct I've just described certainly has a nexus to an armed conflict.

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One of the other jurisdictional elements that we need for war crimes.

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So what would I propose in this situation?

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Well, I've come to bring a problem and offer possibly a solution. Under the additional protocol one.

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Exactly, Article 77 that talks about children during time periods of armed conflict.

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And it's under Article 77 one No.

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77 two that it talks about the children not to be refrain from being recruited and or not to take part in hostilities.

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That's where we get our customary law basis not to conscript enlist children.

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Special court for Sierra Leone has recognised that even though there's been some

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divergence of opinion and the Rome Statute has expressed that in provisions,

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even if it's not part of customary law, those states that have signed the Rome Statute have agreed that this would be the law that we will abide

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by and that the conventional wisdom is now that customary law has caught up to the conventional law,

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and these are solid war crimes conscription, enlistment use and hostilities, either directly or whatever.

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So Article 77 of Additional Protocol one starts off in subsection one and says children shall have special protection.

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The party shall protect children, offer them special protection, including indecent assault in all its forms.

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Well, if you look at the Vienna Convention and just say let's let's look the plain word, meaning that, what does that mean?

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Well, it probably means that the parties shower for children shall offer children special protection.

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And that indecent assault of any kind can't be inflicted upon them.

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Well, we know what parties mean, particularly under international armed conflict, with a special protection.

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Those of you who've looked at that,

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I assure you understand that special protection or certain special measures under international law that are given to protected persons,

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such as what one can do in terms of regulation, of not being able to have the death penalty be inflicted upon women who are pregnant.

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That's a special protection, no adverse discrimination based on sexual health.

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So special protections or types of special measures. But what is indecent assault or indecent assault?

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I mean, that as a technical term is found in Article 27 of the fourth Geneva Convention that says that talks about

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civilians and in particularly talks about when civilians are in the hands of the other power of the other state,

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and that women shall be protected against rape, forced prostitution, any form of indecent assault or any other form of indecent assault.

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So this other form of indecent indecent assault relates back to rape from forced prostitution or types of illicit sexual conduct.

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Oh, where else do we find this notion of indecent assault?

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Well, if you look at Article 75 of additional protocol one, it's the fundamental guarantees.

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It's kind of like the grave breaches of additional protocol one and under subsection to be of Article 75.

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It talks about outrages upon personal dignity, things you cannot commit, including any form of indecent assault.

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And once again, if you go to Article 76, right before Article 77, an additional protocol one,

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it talks about the special protection for women and again, mentions rape, prostitution or indecent assault.

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So plain language meaning of Article 77 as it relates to children must mean that the parties cannot inflict indecent assault upon children.

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And then says, as I said before, you have to refrain from recruiting children.

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And it says, but in the event that children are used in hostilities,

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athletes participate in hostilities and fall into the hands of the other power, the detaining power of the other party.

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It says the special protection continues. That the special protection starts once from the hands of the officer, but it continues.

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Which makes you say, Well, where did it begin? Began when the children were with the party.

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That was even their own side. I would argue.

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So if there is under Article 77, under additional protocol one, which is recognised basically as customary law,

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that there is a continuation of protection against indecent assault.

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Even when that child soldier or that child who participates in hostilities falls into the hands of the detaining power.

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Well, you would say, well, basically that doesn't have to really be covered by Article 77,

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because you've got the whole Geneva Convention three, you know, and the third Geneva Conventions about prisoners of war.

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And if the job is a comfort in the child, falls in the prison and so forth, you just kind of being redundant, aren't you?

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Because prisoners of war, of course, are protected from sexual violence inflicted by the other side.

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Well, where does that come? Under the Prisoner of War Convention.

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Well, it starts in 1929 under Article three, 1929.

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There's a big draft in the Geneva Conventions, in particular related to prisoners of war.

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And the German delegate suggested that we should add into this 1929 convention that women should be protected,

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women should be given all consideration to their sex,

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which is kind of like Victorian code language to say that female prisoners of war should not be raped.

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Doesn't mean you could break them in. This made it very explicit that female prisoners of war would be given all consideration to their sex.

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That became quite interesting when you look into the commentary of the resolution that that meant protection against sexual violence.

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Then we got to 1949 and lo and behold, in the first convention and the second convention and back to the third convention.

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That phrase is repeated. Under Articles 12, 12 and 13, 14, women should be given all consideration due their sex,

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meaning that the opposite party, the opposite power, cannot sexually assault the women.

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Okay.

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And that's why, you know, I'd love to take all the credit that just like ad hoc tribunals, he made rape a war crime, and I did it in a forensic case.

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Rape has been a war crime. I mean, it's one of the oldest.

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It's one of the core crimes of war crimes that exist, particularly for the civilian population.

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But what's interesting from the 29 conventions of the 49 conventions, it's reiterated that combatants cannot be sexually violated by the other side.

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That's that's a big new thing of the 2949 conventions.

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But when you look at the commentaries, official ICRC commentaries, you know about what does that phrase really mean?

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You would say yes, so that the detaining power can't rape women.

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And they've got a special provision that women are supposed to be guarded only by other women.

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But when you read what Pictet says, it says, you know what?

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Male and female prisoners from the same side are be separated out.

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And the detaining power is to ensure that females are not assaulted by prisoners of war from their own side.

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They are protected against sexual assault from their own side in the hands of the detaining power.

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And I would argue that this precept, this precept under the third convention, which actually dates back to 1929,

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when we're really starting to understand combatant vulnerability and humane treatment,

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has to be read into Article 77 when we talk about children as combatants falling into the hands of.

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Tim Powers at that stage, there's special protection against any form of indecent assault.

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That protection stands even in terms of members from their own party or P.O.W. cannot assault.

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And. You add that together with Article 77 one, knowing that this protection continues when detained and children have special protection.

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I would say that the paradigm of war crimes.

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Already allows for a fundamental shift. In particular when we're talking about children and in particular, we talk about child combatants.

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And especially when we understand the nature of the sexual violence, any form of indecent assault.

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The child combatants can undergo. Well, why hasn't this been written up before?

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I mean, if it's so hot, you know, let's try it all out.

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Well, I think that these are among the things that a feminist critique of international military law can offer us.

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Depending on the doors we enter in and what we see what is before us when we put on a gendered lens.

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There are other things that the Lubanga case can offer to us.

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As I mentioned before, this ideal of the constant crime when we look at enslavement, when we look at what I hate to call forced marriage,

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inhumane treatment, this notion that it's one off, it was done with that 10 seconds.

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We never think of torture that the one act or doesn't most physical torture turn into psychological torture.

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When we look at this issue of consent and say that a child cannot consent to enlist or conscript because they mentally don't understand death,

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we understand that at this time period, international monitoring law and national criminal law, consenting to sexual violence even for a child,

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is dependent other than from the Rome Statute on the circumstances in which they find themselves.

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We don't say a child that not does not understand gang rapes.

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A child does not understand being sexually abused with fistula and many international criminal are up until today,

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apart from what might be a future interpretation of the statute, has no age cut off in terms of consent and sexual violence.

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The most progressive way we look at it is saying, Oh, let's look at the circumstances in which the person is.

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And these are the findings not only from Rwanda, from the ad hoc Yugoslav Tribunal, special court for Sierra Leone.

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Possibly the Rome Statute will make us interpret, unable to give genuine consent,

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meaning that if you cannot continue and can send a court, that your consent is not genuine, you're unable to give.

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It is the equivalent of consent being just irrelevant for the circumstances or for the act that we're talking about.

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Well, I would like to close here, but with just a couple of very, very quick reflections,

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because there have been a couple of scholars that have looked at some of these issues.

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And as a matter of fact, I think Robert Roe from Lancaster has talked about friendly fire.

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When you are killed by someone from your own side, not necessarily that that's a war crime, but that harm does come from our own side.

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Also, when we talk about and this is from one of the scholars at Nottingham Sanders for Suvi marin who does male sexual

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assault that well so does internal non-international armed conflict says that the Geneva Conventions from 1854,

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from 1906 to 1929 really were talking about helping the wounded in the sick,

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irrespective of the nationality, and that all parties have the same obligations to all wounded and victims.

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And so I come back to where are these?

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Just a couple of partial imperfect insights.

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Is this not the very basis of Geneva humanitarian law?

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The humane part is supposed to be about irrespective of the victim, irrespective of the party.

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And maybe just the example of children in particularly through a feminist lens, allows us to see what's right in front of us.

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To conclude, as Hilary Charlesworth would say, I hope we broaden the conversation because this is one that we should all be happy.

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Thank you very much for.