1 00:00:01,770 --> 00:00:10,170 My name is John Wilson. I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the UW Program on the Project, Architect of Peace on the Columbia Peace Process. 2 00:00:10,740 --> 00:00:14,430 And it's my great pleasure to introduce Professor Neil Ferguson, 3 00:00:14,430 --> 00:00:23,340 professor of political psychology at the Little Hope University, and to the Tuesday seminars time serious. 4 00:00:24,210 --> 00:00:35,820 And as a researcher and as a visiting researcher fellow he's not a stranger to CCW and and that's to quickly go through the usual Professor 5 00:00:35,820 --> 00:00:43,799 Ferguson has published quite widely in both psychology and political journalists and most others published in the Journal of Journalism, 6 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:50,280 Mass Communication, Quality, Democracy and Security. Political Psychology, International Journal of Conflict and Violence. 7 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,970 Peace and Conflict Journal of Peace Psychology. Peace Research. 8 00:00:54,270 --> 00:00:58,830 International Journal of Behavioural Development and Political Psychology to just name a few. 9 00:00:59,730 --> 00:01:07,950 And, and this is, of course his work has appeared and numerous edits volume and he himself has edited quite a few volumes 10 00:01:07,950 --> 00:01:14,549 on the psychology of becoming a combatant in the process of after violence has ceased and today's 11 00:01:14,550 --> 00:01:22,080 presentation falls into the second category and explores the processes involved in leaving social movements 12 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:29,070 or disengaging from terrorist activities towards engaging in non-military sorts of civil society. 13 00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:37,140 And so the most interesting approach of this research is that it combines macro processes taking place 14 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:44,010 and at the institutional level with microprocessors taking place at the group or individual level. 15 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:52,830 And it is therefore not surprising that he not only made scholarly contribution, but has advised various governments, 16 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:59,340 NGOs, think tanks and so forth on issues around radicalisation of terrorism and counter-terrorism. 17 00:02:00,060 --> 00:02:04,620 And I have of course very self interest in the issue, you know, studying Columbia. 18 00:02:06,540 --> 00:02:12,869 Yeah, because Columbia is facing and of course they have clearly a task of transforming a forest 19 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:18,540 into a that is an experience of six decades of jungle warfare into a legal political force. 20 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,320 And but whatever your regional interests may be, Professor Ferguson, 21 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:29,100 Holbrooke has made it relatively readily apparent that his findings are applicable to other contexts other than Northern Ireland. 22 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,459 So I'm sure we will learn a lot from today's presentation and we have an equally vibrant discussion. 23 00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:40,650 And let's welcome Professor Ferguson to Oxford University. 24 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,930 Thanks for China. Thanks so much for getting your time to come along to the talk show. 25 00:02:48,930 --> 00:02:54,160 We said we're going to look are going to have a look at sort of the end cycle against people leaving violence behind. 26 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:59,700 So uncomfortable, I guess try to look at the sort of issues around de-radicalization, disengagement from violence, 27 00:02:59,850 --> 00:03:04,590 thinking about, I guess, come from a terrorism studies perspective, a psychologist at heart. 28 00:03:07,810 --> 00:03:13,270 So it's hardly surprised anybody. But since 9/11, been a huge growth in interest issues, right? 29 00:03:13,270 --> 00:03:19,959 Terrorism, radicalisation, de-radicalization, I mean, to extent that you can't read everything as published anymore, 30 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,460 there's just so much material getting published, particularly around issues around radicalisation. 31 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,580 It's also very true that this work is generally very, very poor, 32 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,990 less reliance on secondary data sites that wouldn't really engaged in work in the field, 33 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,480 people into looping, coming in, writing attacks, getting off again, going back to whatever it is to do for the day job. 34 00:03:37,780 --> 00:03:42,999 So the work hasn't really grown and the sort of significance in that time, 35 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:51,909 particularly while at the same time there is kind of a growing awareness of the complexity of the problem across three research become more complex, 36 00:03:51,910 --> 00:04:00,670 more nuanced, the range of factors that are being considered, what is more widespread, particularly on the radicalisation side. 37 00:04:00,670 --> 00:04:04,149 So how do people get involved with armed groups? How do people engage in the violence? 38 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:10,270 The factors that lead into that has got a lot more consideration and the models that are being are been 39 00:04:10,270 --> 00:04:16,900 developed that are getting a little bit more sophisticated in terms of how people leave violence behind, 40 00:04:17,410 --> 00:04:21,489 de-radicalize or de disengage from violence. It's much more limited. 41 00:04:21,490 --> 00:04:28,540 But again, it's beginning to grow the body of work as well, but not as sophisticated and terms as the radicalisation literature. 42 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:31,840 So what are the issues in this area, 43 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:38,230 this big debate about whether we need something called de-radicalisation or what is it or can we have disengagement, 44 00:04:38,290 --> 00:04:42,400 this idea that if we want people to leave violence behind, we have to de-radicalize them. 45 00:04:42,670 --> 00:04:49,719 Okay, so things to think about. So we think of disengagement as what I'm mainly told by today is that people who have a behavioural change, 46 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:55,660 i.e. they don't kill people anymore because they've stopped the violence that that robin people that are involved in the criminality, 47 00:04:55,810 --> 00:05:02,110 the moving away from that. So it's behavioural change as you'll see has to go through that arc and they feel like radicalised. 48 00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:08,890 If anything, the process of their engagement of violence has radicalised them more and the more radical at the end than they were at the beginning. 49 00:05:10,030 --> 00:05:16,329 We also have de-radicalisation, which is, I guess this basic is this idea that we have both this cognitive change and the behavioural change. 50 00:05:16,330 --> 00:05:19,840 So people change the reasons for doing it. There's a change in why they're doing it. 51 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:25,780 Ideological shift. And what I really wanna look at is this idea that I personally as we'll see, 52 00:05:25,780 --> 00:05:32,710 I don't really think that de-radicalisation is a necessary and this route towards ending violent extremism okay 53 00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:37,690 we could deal with it disengage would begin this is very simple look at all these topics and much more nuanced, 54 00:05:37,690 --> 00:05:42,940 much more complicated than I give them time for an eye. Okay, so look at the overview. 55 00:05:42,940 --> 00:05:47,610 How does this engagement work? Basically, it's lots of different factors. 56 00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:50,739 You have your societal level factors, your community level factors. 57 00:05:50,740 --> 00:05:54,070 You've got the personal life, the individual and individual integrate. 58 00:05:54,370 --> 00:05:56,410 All this kind of process are involved in it. 59 00:05:57,010 --> 00:06:05,710 But you can break it down to the sort of steps either the individual combatant decides he or she has had enough and is going to stop killing people. 60 00:06:05,890 --> 00:06:09,040 It's got to stop getting engaged in this terrorism or terrorist activity or 61 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,089 paramilitary activity or as we've probably seen more so in Northern Ireland, 62 00:06:13,090 --> 00:06:19,890 we have a group level disengagement. The group itself, for a variety of reasons, have decided that militarism is not the way forward. 63 00:06:19,910 --> 00:06:23,530 We need to go into community work. We do go to politics. We need to go to other fields. 64 00:06:23,860 --> 00:06:28,080 I'll leave the violence behind. And again, people do this for a variety of reasons. 65 00:06:28,090 --> 00:06:34,030 One, you can voluntary do that. So your group itself could decide, well, we're not going to achieve our political goals by using violence. 66 00:06:34,030 --> 00:06:37,510 We need to find new ways of moving forward or it's forced. 67 00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:42,069 So basically there is decapitation of your organisation leaderships killed off 68 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:47,020 the organisation fractures and Brexit has been forced to the disengagement. 69 00:06:47,890 --> 00:06:51,360 And again these processes as we'll see, can be temporary. 70 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:56,620 So people will come in, leave the organisation, maybe go to prison after their imprisonment, 71 00:06:56,620 --> 00:07:00,820 leave the organisation, get themselves a nice job as a shopkeeper, for example. 72 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:07,450 Then after a while come back into the organisation, get involved, the political side or welfare or back into the military side and things like that. 73 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,960 Or they could be permanent. I mean, the easiest way to bring about permanent disengagement is obviously to kill the person. 74 00:07:14,410 --> 00:07:17,800 So once they're killed or permanent, I think it's not going to do it again. Okay. 75 00:07:18,070 --> 00:07:22,300 But for most people, it's a very nebulous activity. People drift and drift out over time. 76 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:25,810 So we break through the processes. We can look at it a bit like that. 77 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:31,719 So if you look across the literature in this area, there's a number of sort of common factors that people cite. 78 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:37,210 We try to understand why people leave these armed groups or why these armed groups might fold. 79 00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:43,120 One of the arguments really is that basically the organisations will collapse, the people will all leave. 80 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,999 So, you know, if you get injured, most people who get involved in armed groups, 81 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,700 a young man who cannot be a success, but the young man, they get involved in their teenage years, 82 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:56,229 their early and then early twenties, and basically through their life, 83 00:07:56,230 --> 00:08:00,730 the priorities will change and eventually, off their own will, they'll stop doing it. 84 00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:06,190 Okay. A lot of factors plan for that. Things like physical, psychological and socioeconomic. 85 00:08:06,670 --> 00:08:12,760 We'll talk about that as we go through the talk, because these are key factors for the people who have involved research that I'm going to talk about. 86 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:15,250 It's hard work. 87 00:08:15,490 --> 00:08:22,030 You know, if you're on the run from the security agency, the agency, the security services, the police agencies are disrupting you and harassing you, 88 00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:28,570 perhaps just threats to your life from people within your own organisation, people from oppositional organisations you're in. 89 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,680 You're not seeing your family. You can't get a job, you can't hold down a job. 90 00:08:32,980 --> 00:08:39,430 There's all these sort of problems, a lot of psychological physical pressure and socio economic pressure factor. 91 00:08:39,430 --> 00:08:45,219 We'll see it as important as ageing. You know, you grew up, you have kids, your life kind of changes to this, 92 00:08:45,220 --> 00:08:49,000 changing your life priorities, the things that were important to you when you're 15, 16, 93 00:08:49,390 --> 00:08:51,140 not sort of important to you in a 34, 94 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:57,850 45 or whatever happens to be one of the companies said a factor is this idea that you lose faith of the group ideology. 95 00:08:57,850 --> 00:09:01,450 You realise when you get onto the battlefield to join the group that they're 96 00:09:01,450 --> 00:09:04,779 not really stand up for things that you thought they were going to stand up. 97 00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:08,380 Maybe they're more interested in money or dealing drugs or whatever it happens to be. 98 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:15,610 You know, perhaps if you go off to you mention Afghanistan or you get stuck in Afghanistan, you're back in a truck, in a missile head. 99 00:09:15,670 --> 00:09:19,450 Do you think maybe not the best thing to do, you know, to get involved in these groups. 100 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:28,030 Like any sort of job dissolution, the group dynamics, the people you work with, you don't get on with these sort of issues, very personal issues, 101 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:34,959 issues around one of the common ideas, this idea that the violence itself, after a while you get sort of sickened by the violence. 102 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,700 They realise that the violence is counterproductive to achieving the group goals, your political goals and things like that. 103 00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:45,670 So these are kind of common factors that people see within lots of different groups here and 104 00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:50,530 get some politically motivated violence and we'll see some of them as we go through today. 105 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:57,850 So the groups I'm particularly going to talk about today are the UVF and the are hits, see. 106 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:06,760 So basically this is the Ulster Volunteer Force, the Red Hand Commandos pick any of the groups from Northern Ireland that we're going to look at. 107 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:11,200 These groups, unlike the IRA, were pro-British. 108 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:15,910 Okay. So they're basically trying to maintain using violence to maintain the status 109 00:10:15,910 --> 00:10:20,350 quo in Northern Ireland to keep Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom. 110 00:10:20,710 --> 00:10:28,030 So some people would have see them as conservative, are preservation terrorists if you would label them. 111 00:10:28,990 --> 00:10:34,520 If you look at what they did during the conflict over the duration of the troubles, 112 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:40,960 that 1700 people were killed, depending on how you count it and who you include. 113 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:45,910 But you can say that loyalist paramilitaries killed almost 30% of of those victims. 114 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:54,310 Most of the victims of the kill as well are civilians and not necessarily members of the IRA or Republicans, but general civilians. 115 00:10:56,620 --> 00:10:59,920 The groups themselves went on cease fire in 1994. 116 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,360 The leadership of the group through was very pro agreement. 117 00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:14,980 So during the peace negotiations and the mid to late 1993, very pro agreement, looking to move forward and move into peace processes. 118 00:11:16,450 --> 00:11:25,090 Ten years ago, the joint leadership of the Youth for the Red Hand Commando said that they were going to a seminar on military civilian rule. 119 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,090 They were going to stop and engage in military activity. 120 00:11:28,510 --> 00:11:34,300 Recall who becomes involved in more like community activism, community work, local politics, things like that. 121 00:11:36,010 --> 00:11:42,970 Then two years later, the commission older weapons are apparently commission on the weapons systems first verified that they had done so. 122 00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:52,480 But just a year later, the murdered there was a sanctioned murder of Bobby Moffitt, who was a and also had been a UVF member. 123 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,420 And it has riled up some other members of the leadership. 124 00:11:57,940 --> 00:12:04,659 So clearly, the commission, all of their weaponry since then, they've been involved in paramilitary style attacks. 125 00:12:04,660 --> 00:12:09,940 She was the sort of punishment, beatings and things like that involved in coordinating the sectarian rallies, 126 00:12:09,940 --> 00:12:15,299 particularly around the flag protests that we had in Belfast involved the political protest, 127 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:19,020 but also involved in bringing about solutions to some of the political protest. 128 00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:23,229 If think of the they took it to the Twidale Avenue protests and things like that, 129 00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:30,309 they were very instrumental in bringing this to an end as well as that they have been targeting the republic. 130 00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:33,490 And so although on paper they're supposed to get up this militarism, 131 00:12:34,180 --> 00:12:41,140 there has been a big debate within the organisation about what the response would be to Irish distance in the Irish Republic and if they're committed, 132 00:12:41,530 --> 00:12:45,310 for example, if they killed other loyalists or killed lawlessness and things like that. 133 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,770 So they've been involved in kind of targeting intelligence gathering and things like that on potential targets in the community. 134 00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:52,719 And quite recently then, 135 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:58,780 the high command of actually applied to the surface did have the proscribed status from they've said it won't become a legal organisation 136 00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:05,650 able to operate under the label of Red Hand Commando and do the community work and coffee transformation work under this label. 137 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:10,299 Okay. So that's currently where we are in a field of talk, some red commando members recently. 138 00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:15,040 So if you want to talk about that later, I'm happy to talk about why they're doing this at a later date. 139 00:13:16,060 --> 00:13:21,660 So what are the factors that are really people push people to kind of begin to move away? 140 00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:28,390 As I said already, it's hard work. So ageing is an important process in two ways. 141 00:13:28,750 --> 00:13:38,500 One, you get older, so you kind of malodorous, your guy says, you know, evaluate, you become wiser, you think things through a little bit better. 142 00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:45,460 You're not as hotheaded. This might happen in your youth, but also has an impact in terms of your your ability to operate in the field. 143 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,230 So if you've gone to prison, you know, what are the security services? You know, it's the place. 144 00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:54,459 You know, you're going to get caught, you know, good doing that kind of work anymore. 145 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:58,870 People know who you are, so you're not as effective in your field craft as you could have been. 146 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,580 You know, people would joke and say things like, well, you know, at my age, you're not going to make the getaway car anymore. 147 00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:05,170 You know, you're not going to do that run, you know. 148 00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:13,890 So there's always kind of physical changes, psychological changes, changes in where you are in your life interest as well. 149 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:18,790 I mean, if you look at a lot of research about how people get engaged with these groups, family, 150 00:14:19,270 --> 00:14:23,460 friendship groups, these kind of things are very important in people's roots and armed groups. 151 00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:28,180 If you look at people, for example, who travel to Syria to join ISIS, most people, 152 00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:31,970 the little cliques of people, individual friendship groups and things like that. 153 00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:39,200 Seven Northern Ireland Family of friendships. Very important but interesting as well when people look at how they've come out of the organisation. 154 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,880 And those relationships again are quite central and supporting that activity. 155 00:14:44,890 --> 00:14:49,240 So I was quite surprised when I was doing this research. 156 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,410 How many of these former loyalist combatants, former ex-prisoners, 157 00:14:53,470 --> 00:15:00,700 these are people who have been served long sentences for sectarian related crimes, are not in romantic relationships with Catholic women. 158 00:15:01,070 --> 00:15:08,320 Okay. So this kind of change, but also you can see this guy is talking about, you know, you know, sometimes it took violence to push the law that way. 159 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,260 But everything I've done, you know, I've justified them anger. 160 00:15:11,260 --> 00:15:15,040 And it's not been, I think, either to have peace, but have a good society for all of north. 161 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,930 And it's kind of counter intuitive idea that the violence in some way was there to bring about peace. 162 00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:23,439 But Vernon will probably talk about this again, this idea, 163 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,610 but this sort of idea of not wanting the next generation to have to perpetrate that violence, 164 00:15:29,380 --> 00:15:35,320 that you've had to witness the brutality of the violence. You've seen France killed, you've done killing your psychologically harmed. 165 00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:41,290 I mean, I think about 40% of the population have GHQ scores that indicate they've got mental health issues. 166 00:15:42,490 --> 00:15:47,319 PTSD, probably about 50% put through some symptomology of PTSD. 167 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,490 So these are very harmed population. So they don't want all the people have to live through that. 168 00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:55,120 So it's a kind of an issue, but not one the conflict to go on again for the. 169 00:15:55,470 --> 00:15:57,840 The children of North Nelson for children more generally, 170 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,610 but also for the children they have had as if grown up their own children, grandchildren, things like that. 171 00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:14,319 One of the key issues for my population was prison in terms of how they got to move in 172 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,560 from a militaristic point of view to trying to solve the conflict through violence, 173 00:16:18,070 --> 00:16:22,780 to trying to solve the conflict through negotiation and peace was really going to prison. 174 00:16:23,170 --> 00:16:26,860 Okay. So and some of the other other research should have looked at how people got involved. 175 00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:31,150 When they get involved in violence or politically naive, they don't have a notion. 176 00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:35,260 They're not educated. Some of them are very, very, very poorly educated. 177 00:16:35,270 --> 00:16:42,040 No historical knowledge about Northern Ireland and the really getting involved in violence at the very local level, the Roma gangs. 178 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,089 These things happen in the streets, these things happen in the area and they get brought into the violence like that. 179 00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:49,300 It's not really thought out political violence as such. Okay. 180 00:16:50,170 --> 00:16:55,850 But when they go to prison, there's a kind of a space to think and also some a cease fires do the same thing. 181 00:16:55,850 --> 00:17:03,910 The provider provide the groups, the combatant groups with the space to come together, reformulate the ideas and think of a longer term strategy. 182 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,350 Okay. So when you're in the hot conflict, all you're thinking about is how do I kill X? 183 00:17:08,530 --> 00:17:14,410 How do I stop actually killing me? So it's a very, very, very, very short termism and term issue if you're strategic. 184 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,840 So a prison gives people to sit back, reflect, think of the bigger picture, do some education. 185 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,310 Think of it widely says this. I said you. 186 00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:28,479 Some people say the likes of them is from places like that where universities of terrorism, 187 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,680 a common phrase people use about the base and the retirees training camps. 188 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:36,190 But I actually believe the university is a piece in terms of how we discussed in there, 189 00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:39,700 how we decided, how we came about in our discussions, how are we going to get ideas. Okay. 190 00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,730 So they give people a space and the resources to think about this. 191 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:47,440 Okay? So people in a way got radicalised in prison, politically radicalised, 192 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,340 ideologically radicalised, but it helped them move towards peace, not away from peace. 193 00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:55,870 So again, is an example of that, how these processes work. 194 00:17:56,860 --> 00:18:00,400 We have this kind of growing political radicalisation people are looking towards. 195 00:18:01,510 --> 00:18:04,000 I mean, if Republican prisoners, you're looking at Che Guevara, 196 00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:07,870 you're looking at socialism, you're looking at all these different ideas, political ideas, 197 00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:15,610 and you're looking at different education, you're reading different policy documents, are analysing and policy documents, doing critical evaluation. 198 00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:19,719 You're coming together in discussion groups. What's going on? How do we move forward? 199 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,110 How do we change? You reflect on of why you got there. 200 00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:26,169 Why did you do that attack? Why were you involved in that violence? 201 00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:33,069 What were your motivations? What are you trying to achieve? And also within the prison, you're also negotiating with prison authorities. 202 00:18:33,070 --> 00:18:39,670 You're learning these skills, negotiation skills. You're also negotiating with other armed groups that are in different wings. 203 00:18:40,030 --> 00:18:43,359 So understand the world from their perspective as well. 204 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:49,120 You begin to sort of develop your skills, your negotiation skills, your educational skills, your historical outlet, your political acumen. 205 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:53,050 So it really helps people move forward. 206 00:18:53,770 --> 00:19:00,249 And again, it's cool to sort of illustrate that, you know, I went to prison in 1980 and if you've any sort of matter in your head for all, 207 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:03,630 you have to start analyse where you finish up in prison just by thinking. 208 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,300 My thought was this reinforced by the fact that everything wasn't as black and white as I had seen it. 209 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:12,969 Prison just gives you an opportunity to touch from it. It's a dubious way to be attached, but your detach from it. 210 00:19:12,970 --> 00:19:16,720 I give you time to think. Okay, so I did. You know, once you go in, you get that space. 211 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,560 You could bring people together, get a critical mass of people to discuss ideas. 212 00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:26,220 And as I said, if you go outside, people don't understand that because they're still involved, 213 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:31,420 the short term [INAUDIBLE] for tat violence cycle, so they can develop their political ideas. 214 00:19:31,420 --> 00:19:35,379 They're on the run. They're hiding from the police. And the security agencies are planning operations. 215 00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:42,580 They're not really thinking of a bigger and a bigger and have a bigger viewpoint, whereas prison give these people the time to do that. 216 00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:51,120 So anyway, what I'm saying is, well, let's radicalisation people have this political radicalisation, 217 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:56,579 ideological awakening that comes with in prison when you see them outside of 218 00:19:56,580 --> 00:20:01,559 prison that also that begins to that's the thing that's fuelling their activity, 219 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,210 the conflict transformation activity. 220 00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:09,299 So why are doing community work, why they're running football clubs at 12:00 at night on Friday to take these off the street, 221 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:14,550 why they're doing these educational projects, why they're doing welfare with prisoners, why they work with bands, 222 00:20:14,550 --> 00:20:20,730 to try to get bands to understand legislation, why they're doing all this work and a lot of stuff to do with this kind of skills 223 00:20:20,730 --> 00:20:24,540 that were developed within their time in prison and that sort of political ideology. 224 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,500 So anyway, here you see, this is a former prisoner. 225 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:36,540 He's talking about working with the group of young adolescents, and he's trying to get them to understand that the conflict wasn't glorious. 226 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:41,399 You know, you get the murals on the wall showing you the people with balaclavas and the rifles and glorify. 227 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,960 In the past conversations with the parents, 228 00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:49,650 we talked about the good old days and the conflict is all of what happened and how people could leave the doors open and all these kind of things. 229 00:20:50,250 --> 00:20:53,720 And this kind of challenge, these ideas about high conflict isn't glorious. 230 00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:58,990 The higher the conflict actually can be very, very destructive and anarchy. 231 00:20:59,110 --> 00:21:09,240 And this comes this this sort of process of imprisonment and trying to reimagine new future for peoples, their families and their other kin as well. 232 00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:16,709 So what I'm saying is, you know, what is this process in some respects? 233 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:21,520 If you look at the essentially, you could argue that there's an element of de-radicalization there and that, you know, 234 00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:27,780 they're not killing people anymore, that it is a change, but it's certainly a kind of a more liberalisation of people's attitudes have changed. 235 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:37,260 And as I said, they are on the way up today. You know, a lot of these people in a way, go to prison with very dehumanised ideas about the opponent. 236 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:40,620 Okay. So, you know, all Catholics are targets. 237 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:45,359 You know, if you calculate IRA kill at KG and they're all the same vocabulary, very dehumanised, 238 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:51,149 individualised when they go to prison, begin negotiations and talk to people that helps them re individualise the opponent, 239 00:21:51,150 --> 00:21:57,960 they begin to understand them better the study them to see them differently and their attitudes change as well towards the opponent groups. 240 00:21:59,310 --> 00:22:04,650 So as you said, you can see that change within this person is talking about, you know, obviously being a soldier. 241 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,000 So this is somebody who is dialogue is part of military but has been a former British army soldier. 242 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,610 So obviously, being a soldier and having a lot of heart come from soldiers and family getting killed by the IRA, 243 00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:19,070 I was obviously I couldn't stand the sight of the other community. I didn't know them. 244 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:24,360 I didn't particularly want to know them. All I seen was the heart that that caused our community from that. 245 00:22:24,810 --> 00:22:31,110 For that now it's the total opposite, I believe, a more sort of liberal, unless the people's belief, even if you don't agree with them, accept them. 246 00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:35,099 RAZ Well, I would have thought before the violence we saw things. 247 00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:40,980 Now, I think the complete opposite. It has to be done in a more democratic, where there has to be a system, etc., etc., 248 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,250 because that sort of challenge where people are become very humanised as well. 249 00:22:45,390 --> 00:22:50,880 This process key to, I guess, a lot of the change within these armed groups was the leadership, 250 00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:56,490 the fact that a lot of people at the top were by peace process, certainly not all the rank and file were peace process supporters. 251 00:22:57,030 --> 00:22:58,380 A lot of you would have been very against that. 252 00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:05,969 But the leadership was there trying to keep the organisations coherent and trying to get them to transform away from violence, 253 00:23:05,970 --> 00:23:12,240 move away from militarism of criminality, try to move into this more civilian ized kind of role. 254 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:15,690 That's just so much to try to explain of how we tried to get back to normality. 255 00:23:15,690 --> 00:23:17,820 How do you leave away, get away, 256 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:28,560 get away from these sort of trappings of paramilitarism and try to bring the organisation forward into a sort of more peaceful, long conflict road. 257 00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:35,300 One of the key aspects of this whole process is a sense of identity. 258 00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:41,329 Okay, so within Northern Ireland, a very entrenched sense of identity within the population. 259 00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:47,900 So if you particularly back at the during the conflict, if you said to process a Catholic, are you proud of the Catholics, 70 or 80% of people? 260 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,410 No. I have no problem with saying that they're Protestant or Catholic. Okay. 261 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,709 Once you get involved with these armed groups, that becomes heightened to have all these sort of small group pressures, 262 00:23:57,710 --> 00:24:02,060 the pressure on you to sort of heighten your identity, your sense of self, your sense of belonging with those communities. 263 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:07,730 You come in isolated. You're only working within the discourses and the narratives of those organisations. 264 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,370 So your worldview narrows as you become very, very identified with your group. 265 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:18,920 And that is very key. Very committed. So committed initially to the militaristic activity involved in violence. 266 00:24:19,340 --> 00:24:26,540 And then later that commitment troubles three without radicalised identity in terms of your more positive community kind of work. 267 00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:30,530 And this guy is trying to explain that in a way. So, you know, me personally, 268 00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:35,870 it seems to be that what I was doing then and what I continue to do is see somebody 269 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:41,000 formerly been involved in the military side of things and I've been involved in politics. 270 00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:46,250 And I guess the strategic thinking is to stand up for the loyalist people, 271 00:24:46,670 --> 00:24:49,969 what we perceive to be our right, not to be downtrodden by republics, by anybody. 272 00:24:49,970 --> 00:24:55,250 You know, nothing has changed with me. I don't see that as the same things that are there since the same motivators. 273 00:24:55,250 --> 00:25:01,280 This drive and the motivators that drove a lot of the violence are the same motivators drive and the more peace work. 274 00:25:03,470 --> 00:25:06,410 And again, this is the kind of to the thing that most people talked about, 275 00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:13,010 why they were doing this activity and why that moved away from violence was this idea of a kind of a belief and the shared future, 276 00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:18,409 this idea that Northern Ireland, you it's it's a it's a no win situation in terms of conflict. 277 00:25:18,410 --> 00:25:22,160 The populations are too evenly matched. No one's ever going to win that war. 278 00:25:22,550 --> 00:25:27,590 You know, you got, what, 55% Protestant, 45% Catholics, too, even, you know, 279 00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:31,250 if they've been 10% Catholic, a 10% Protestants, they could have been wiped out. 280 00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:36,200 But it didn't happen like that. So the conflict can't military you can't win it in a military sense. 281 00:25:36,860 --> 00:25:40,040 So we have to look forward, look for something else. We went back to assess. 282 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:47,059 And so a lot of people reflected back against Ulster-scots and Irish unionism and politics and tradition and, 283 00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:50,000 you know, to the Irish, United Irishmen and all these different things. 284 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,960 So as I said, so we went back to the Covenant, looked at some of the issues that were in the Ulster Covenant, like civil or religious freedom. 285 00:25:57,470 --> 00:26:03,410 And if we really believed if unionists really believe in civil and religious liberty, that must be for all of us, for Protestants, 286 00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:09,070 for Catholics, for nationalists, Welsh Unionists of Today, for the ethnic minorities, as well as indigenous people. 287 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,310 So this idea that, you know, 288 00:26:10,790 --> 00:26:19,040 we have to move towards this democratic sure future to get the best solution for all of Ireland rather than any particular ethnic group. 289 00:26:20,690 --> 00:26:23,560 And as I said, this is one of the big push for people. 290 00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:33,530 Is this future generations, the idea of not having to have their children or grandchildren do the same things in their did and the and the conflict? 291 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:40,220 You know, as he said, I don't want any more conflict. All our people that are lining up the jail, that are lying six foot under. 292 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,679 I don't want another young boy from this state because some middle class politician who stirs up the [INAUDIBLE], the shooting, 293 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,590 some of the young parts because there are different there are different religion 294 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,250 spending the best years of his life in jail or getting shot dead himself. 295 00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:55,399 I don't want that for any of the kids in assisted. I want jobs. 296 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,330 They want nice housing. I want a good environment. That's all we want. It's not too much to ask. 297 00:26:59,730 --> 00:27:07,850 That's you want a life. And this idea get into this normal getting back to normal life, trying to find about a future for for everybody. 298 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,750 So these are the kind of things that drove drove people. 299 00:27:11,780 --> 00:27:17,719 We're also going to quickly just look at a couple of barriers that held people back are held as processes. 300 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,560 I said you're looking at a process that's been going on for a long time. 301 00:27:21,710 --> 00:27:28,730 Okay. So if you think the group was going to stand died in 2007, still are to die 2017. 302 00:27:29,150 --> 00:27:39,650 So these processes take a long time. Some of the reasons for that is as a population to feel stigmatised. 303 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:50,389 As I said, there's a lot of issues within the population around things like mental health problems with economic, you know, trying to get a job. 304 00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:58,340 I think I sit for like 70, 78, 80% of the of the prisoner population site have a financial problems. 305 00:27:58,820 --> 00:28:02,600 50 or 60% of them have problems getting a job. 306 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:08,690 They feel like second class citizens within the communities because that can access the 307 00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:11,930 same rights as individuals because of the criminal record and all this kind of stuff. 308 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:17,930 So particularly within the liberal arts community, because people loyalist community had a choice, you know, you could join the police, 309 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:25,100 you could join the R, the UDR, you could do something legal to try to combat Republicanism if that's what you wanted to do. 310 00:28:25,670 --> 00:28:30,530 Or you could do the illegal activity and join the paramilitary. So within unionism, there's a big stigma about the fact that the. 311 00:28:30,550 --> 00:28:37,900 These people are bad. These people took an illegal route to try to do that activity that could have taken a legal route, the activity. 312 00:28:38,830 --> 00:28:42,250 Okay. So there's that kind of stigma within that within this community. 313 00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:45,040 And then there's a wider stigma, particularly see within the media. 314 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,979 But even when these people do something positive, there's always the idea of the buyers who care. 315 00:28:50,980 --> 00:28:56,350 Cause in the past have done this in the past to kill someone in the past, you know, the bomb, somebody in the past is this. 316 00:28:56,350 --> 00:28:57,999 And they can't move forward from that. 317 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:04,299 And that holds them back, particularly when they're in competition in the modern world, trying to get funding for projects and move forward. 318 00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:10,260 Conflict transformation activity. The competing against, I guess, people here more professional, you know, 319 00:29:10,390 --> 00:29:18,010 civil society organisations that are more respectable are more likely to get money and things that got sort of kind of held back and that way. 320 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:24,370 And again, as the last person is told, with their every occupation form says, have you ever convicted of a criminal offence? 321 00:29:24,370 --> 00:29:27,310 I right no one that for obvious reasons I've told the truth. 322 00:29:27,670 --> 00:29:32,560 Rasp here possession of a bomb with intent to endanger life, instructing others in the use of firearms and bombs. 323 00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:37,450 I mean, what does that say? So again, what tends to happen is they get a job because they lie on the application form. 324 00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:41,470 But Northern is a very small place, so someone knows who you are. 325 00:29:42,010 --> 00:29:45,850 That's how the employer, then you get the SA. Okay, so you can't hold down the job. 326 00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:49,509 Still working for a and the grey economy. Cash and hard kind of work. 327 00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:56,290 Lupine labour, you know this kind of thing. Difficult to kind of sustain a family livelihood, which makes things difficult. 328 00:29:59,020 --> 00:30:09,910 Why does it take so long? It's a difficult process for the organisations to move through to try to keep organisations kind of cohesive. 329 00:30:10,750 --> 00:30:15,940 You know, if you think of the skill set that a lot of these paramilitaries have perfect jobs, 330 00:30:15,940 --> 00:30:22,090 that organised crime or criminality or other activity set up a splinter group, another armed group, move off and do activity like that. 331 00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:27,850 So you're trying to move forward, but it appears that keeps everybody coherent involved. 332 00:30:27,950 --> 00:30:33,880 Okay. So, you know, as I said, you know, with benefit of hindsight, we should have considered what are we going to do with redundant gun men? 333 00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:38,200 These men have suffered to the point of death, asking after receiving nothing. 334 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,719 Many older men have no nothing but violence, and the psychological damage has left many ill equipped to cope with what 335 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,380 passes for normality and the chaos that if you look at things like GHQ scores, 336 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:53,440 40%, 40% of the population are have scores indicative of mental health problems. 337 00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:59,170 If you look at things like prescription rates for anti-depressants or anti-anxiety drugs, 338 00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:09,070 that about 40% have been prescribed those drugs in the last 12 months, PTSD, think 50 at 60% should symptomology of PTSD. 339 00:31:09,610 --> 00:31:12,489 So there's a lot of psychological damage because what they've done to themselves, 340 00:31:12,490 --> 00:31:16,330 you know, because through their own perpetration of violence have harmed themselves. 341 00:31:16,330 --> 00:31:20,830 But, you know, if you've killed somebody, you can't go to your GP and say, oh, well, murdered this guy and I feel really bad about it. 342 00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:24,880 So it's difficult to try to get psychological assistance or psychological help. 343 00:31:25,780 --> 00:31:27,280 So this is these sort of problems. 344 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,560 Plus, people have in prison for a long time to come out and have all those problems that prisoners have a readjustment as well. 345 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:41,050 So the failure to give these men a role, which maybe argued their sacrifice deserved, has meant for some have created their own selves. 346 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:44,980 What role is a for an experienced paramilitary finds themselves surplus to requirements? 347 00:31:44,990 --> 00:31:49,570 The answer is surely obvious. So try to keep the organisation together as men. 348 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,370 It's been a slow process to try to move forward because you're trying to stop a fractured split and people doing their own thing. 349 00:31:57,100 --> 00:32:00,249 Still a big problem in Loyalism. I mean, you mentioned the leadership was important, 350 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:06,190 but the fact is it isn't really that many leaders and leaders of any ability within their organisations are few and far between. 351 00:32:06,970 --> 00:32:13,900 Particularly you think, since David Irvine, obviously Joe McMichael and things are dead, there isn't really people there to take that. 352 00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:19,150 We will only lead them in that kind of way. So that's sort of held them back as well, 353 00:32:19,150 --> 00:32:25,210 not having enough people to go around the sort of bring them forward and bring them through and give them advice and strategic assistance. 354 00:32:26,020 --> 00:32:31,960 So as far as this person, as far as I'm concerned, to be a political party, you have to be educated after the system. 355 00:32:31,970 --> 00:32:35,049 You have to work the system. We have never had that over the years. 356 00:32:35,050 --> 00:32:39,640 And obviously, being in 30 years of conflict, people missed the opportunity every time. 357 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,240 It's someone like Joe McMichael, who was a political genius, was trying to put forward political, 358 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:48,520 whereas the IRA wiped them out because they knew quite rightly. Have you got similar party to what they were running? 359 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:54,670 We were probably unstoppable. Okay, so that lack of leadership is also limiting factor. 360 00:32:55,780 --> 00:33:02,890 What are they problems? Is the legacy of the conflict to different levels is the level that this person is talking about. 361 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:07,600 In a way, you've had a conflict of 30, 40 years. You've demonised the enemy to that level. 362 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:14,290 The propaganda that you've run within your own community to demonise them has been so strong, it's hard to give that up. 363 00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:18,700 You have a society that really believes conflict can solve problems. 364 00:33:19,420 --> 00:33:24,310 So you have a very, you know, traumatised society that still believes to a degree the violence is way forward. 365 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,400 I mean, look, I hope people vote either for you or your vote. Sinn Fein is still very divided at this point and. 366 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,910 That hasn't changed. So you have this sort of macro level that makes it difficult to leave the violence behind that legacy issue. 367 00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:44,590 You also have the issue in terms of the day to day activity for what housed the paramilitaries. 368 00:33:45,070 --> 00:33:48,880 And you have someone someone's doing some sort of criminal activity. 369 00:33:49,270 --> 00:33:53,409 So people don't go to the police because it's the police will come here. They want investigate the crimes they go to. 370 00:33:53,410 --> 00:33:57,010 The paramilitaries say, well, will you support this person? They're doing X, Y and Z. 371 00:33:57,490 --> 00:34:01,810 So again, you have these kind of subcultures of violence where people are coming within the community, 372 00:34:02,170 --> 00:34:07,299 trying to get the paramilitaries to engage in violence and self and police within their own communities. 373 00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:13,960 And these are problematic issues as well as make it difficult to reform because they're wider than the organisation. 374 00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:18,980 They're really embedded within the community. Okay. 375 00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:23,420 Okay. So let's finish off then. Give us time for some discussion. 376 00:34:25,220 --> 00:34:33,020 As you can see, I think the the talk that the the level of factors involved are, you know, right across the whole spectrum. 377 00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:36,770 I've got this sort of sound issue, prop issues that could help and hinder. 378 00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:43,430 You've got the organisation problems, family, individual level factors, again, which can help and hinder people's engagement. 379 00:34:45,590 --> 00:34:48,830 Things that got people involved in the violence or move people, 380 00:34:49,700 --> 00:34:55,189 radicalised people or mobilise people in terms of violence can also play a role 381 00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:58,890 in their own removal from the violence and their own disengagement as well. 382 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,900 So similar factors like family and all that kind of stuff can play on important aspect. 383 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,430 Again, I would say this is for my participants, but I kind of have an asset base to think through for me. 384 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:15,290 For example, the prisoners, people who go to prison, having that time to sort of have these conversations, 385 00:35:15,290 --> 00:35:19,009 discussions, education, all that kind of stuff that came with it is important. 386 00:35:19,010 --> 00:35:24,200 But obviously prisons are a complex environment and even within Northern Ireland, 387 00:35:24,530 --> 00:35:28,310 the impact imprisonment has on the prisoner depends when they're present, 388 00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:33,670 whether they're in long cash, whether it's blocks or whether the blanket protests are happening or the hunger strikes. 389 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,899 All these things have to be take into consideration. 390 00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:42,290 It's not just a straightforward prison is good, you know, for bringing about de-radicalisation or disengagement. 391 00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:47,090 As I said, I think you can see here that disengagement does not mean deradicalisation. 392 00:35:47,090 --> 00:35:52,860 So the people and this here, NIJ and the post-conflict space engagements, community work, 393 00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:58,879 culture transformation work are doing that because of the sort of radicalised, 394 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:05,390 mobilised identities, activist identities that the formed through the militarism and their engagement and their imprisonment. 395 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,480 So when we think about trying to bring it, you know, it's a very popular idea to have these programs at deradicalisation. 396 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:17,450 But in some ways perhaps these can be counterproductive because you're spending time trying to de-radicalize people when you don't need to. 397 00:36:17,630 --> 00:36:25,310 You're probably alienating them. They're probably wasting time that could be used and trying to reintegrate those people back into society. 398 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,210 Okay. So, you know, for the population here, 399 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,860 you know how often their old comrades association where they can still get their sounds right down to the other, 400 00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:40,190 can have little periods and get togethers that lose that sense for that is probably important, more so than trying to de-radicalize them. 401 00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:47,770 As I said, you find within these narrative accounts how people come in and out of the movements. 402 00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:52,850 You know, the leave for particular reasons, come back into them again, do a different role. 403 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,470 Go back. I come back in things that got this idea. It's very tiring. 404 00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:59,600 There isn't a linear pathway for these people. 405 00:36:59,930 --> 00:37:03,320 They come in in different ways, different steps, different forms for different reasons. 406 00:37:05,870 --> 00:37:09,829 Success for reintegration of combat has come. But in this case, as we said, 407 00:37:09,830 --> 00:37:16,220 if you're wasting time trying to de-radicalize people in reality rather than trying to get them reintegrated is pretty more important now, 408 00:37:16,250 --> 00:37:17,780 particularly for everybody else. 409 00:37:17,780 --> 00:37:24,649 If you can't feed yourself and can't feed your family and can't have a normal life and you know you're going to have difficulty with integration. 410 00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:29,959 So probably economic barriers are more important than any kind of ideological aspect we can. 411 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,540 If you look at work done in Iraq and elsewhere and why people think it's an insurgency there, 412 00:37:35,540 --> 00:37:40,590 it's not ideology, it's because you're getting paid to do it. So it's the same thing here. 413 00:37:40,610 --> 00:37:46,820 Money is important. So educational programs, training, jobs, that kind of stuff. 414 00:37:47,870 --> 00:37:54,350 I as I said, one of the big problems is this legacy of the troubles that still promotes this culture of violence. 415 00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:54,940 Okay. 416 00:37:54,980 --> 00:38:02,780 So an interesting thing of I'm trying to look at now is try to work with these combatants to try to look at, you know, those their radicalisation, 417 00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:09,979 those are experience of conflict help and the counter narrative where so they're more likely to be listened to if they're talking to 418 00:38:09,980 --> 00:38:16,670 adolescents about not getting engaged in violence because that can sort of show how horrific it was through experiences and stuff like that. 419 00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:18,320 So it can it be, you know, 420 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:27,320 good agents in terms of CVA kind of counter countering violent extremism are probably when you look at this research, you have to think, 421 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,130 I mean I'm the expert on organisational change or occupational psychology, 422 00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:36,260 but probably there's more to learn there than there is in terms of counterinsurgency. 423 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:41,959 An organisation understand how organisations work. Heidi Maccabi A transformation, organisational change. 424 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:49,190 I think those things are probably more important approaches to promote disengagement and move people forward. 425 00:38:49,940 --> 00:38:51,740 Okay, so I'll leave it there.