1 00:00:00,810 --> 00:00:04,860 So stress and psychological injury sometimes has a kind of. 2 00:00:06,380 --> 00:00:13,070 Legalistic definition in terms of the possibility of of of payments. 3 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:25,970 But I think it's reasonably it was reasonably clearly understood as a kind of as an injury that is obviously psychological as opposed to physical. 4 00:00:26,450 --> 00:00:31,610 And the implication is that there's some kind of damage which is in need of repair. 5 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:44,030 It's characterised by, on the one hand, various kinds of mental distress conditions of extreme fear and associated behaviours such as hyper vigilance, 6 00:00:45,170 --> 00:00:50,420 but also by various kinds of cognitive impairments such as memory loss. 7 00:00:52,590 --> 00:00:59,850 It is a. A feature very much of policing and of military personnel. 8 00:01:01,170 --> 00:01:11,160 And those occupations are subject to some quite notable stressors that cause psychological injury 9 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:21,210 often characterised as follows or at least taxonomist as follows consequence of some traumatic event, 10 00:01:21,810 --> 00:01:33,750 a life threatening or life threatening injury, obviously being shot at or everyone's legs blown off or some such thing. 11 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:43,650 Those life threatening situations tend to generate fear, obviously, but also sense of helplessness and so on. 12 00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:49,350 The second kind of major category is some kind of major loss generating grief. 13 00:01:51,180 --> 00:02:02,800 And the third. So the major category that's often drawn attention to is mental fatigue as a consequence of recurring traumatic events. 14 00:02:04,150 --> 00:02:14,080 And the the kind of image that's often offered here is of a sort of frog in the foot in water. 15 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:20,680 So we confront a traumatic event able to accommodate one event, 16 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:28,450 able to accommodate events over a series of over a period of time, but eventually a wear and tear. 17 00:02:31,290 --> 00:02:35,340 Generates some kind of damage. Okay. 18 00:02:38,110 --> 00:02:52,390 Moral injury is often contrasted and it is typically, I think, contrasted in the literature with post-traumatic stress disorder and. 19 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,670 If we look at some of the literature on this, 20 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:03,390 perhaps the easiest way to characterise the difference as far as the literature is concerned is to think of. 21 00:03:05,780 --> 00:03:16,310 To think of PTSD as severe stress and functional impairments resulting from traumatic events. 22 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,340 So what's the difference between PTSD and moral injury? Well, it's quite similar, 23 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:35,160 except that what's typically added is that the traumatic the traumatic event in question violated and then an individual's moral values. 24 00:03:35,370 --> 00:03:39,180 So the idea is that PTSD is somehow. 25 00:03:40,690 --> 00:03:44,120 Morality is not implicated, but with moral injuries. 26 00:03:44,140 --> 00:03:54,070 Somehow it is. And the way in which it's implicated is that the person who's traumatised, 27 00:03:54,070 --> 00:04:00,490 the one who's suffering the injury, has engaged in some moral transgression. 28 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:05,920 They've done something morally wrong or something that they believe to be morally wrong, 29 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:16,900 or alternatively someone has wronged them and that this is part of the trauma, whereas in the other cases it isn't. 30 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:23,290 So in the PTSD cases. There is no moral transgression. 31 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:30,010 That's the way the distinction. Is. Is typically drawn. 32 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:38,530 And I'm going to suggest that that actually is is rather problematic to draw to draw the distinction that way. 33 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,430 Although I do I do accept that. 34 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,370 There are cases where obviously the trauma doesn't involve a transgression on 35 00:04:49,370 --> 00:04:53,870 the person traumatised and doesn't necessarily involve anyone who's wrong then. 36 00:04:53,880 --> 00:05:08,180 I mean, obvious cases would be accidents or natural disasters which may traumatise people, but no one has been wronged even though the sufferer. 37 00:05:09,510 --> 00:05:14,180 Has been. Psychologically damaged. 38 00:05:15,650 --> 00:05:21,530 Jonathan Shay I would put the quote there. He distinguishes between PTSD and. 39 00:05:23,110 --> 00:05:28,929 A moral injury. And he suggests that where there has been moral injury, 40 00:05:28,930 --> 00:05:34,990 that is where there's been a moral transgression or someone has been deeply wronged or feels that they've been deeply wronged. 41 00:05:37,870 --> 00:05:42,250 They're different in terms of what's called for, in terms of treatment, 42 00:05:42,820 --> 00:05:53,110 and specifically if the person who's been traumatised by something that they've done where the thing that they've done involves a moral transgression, 43 00:05:53,770 --> 00:05:59,140 then it's far more difficult to to treat them. 44 00:06:01,250 --> 00:06:04,550 It's also far more difficult to treat someone who who feels that they've. 45 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:12,790 Been deeply, morally wrong, says says Shai as he's a psychiatrist treating people so. 46 00:06:15,350 --> 00:06:19,830 There's reason to. To accept what he has to say on the matter. 47 00:06:22,410 --> 00:06:31,649 Okay. So what I would suggest is that when people in this context and indeed in a lot of other contexts talk about morality, 48 00:06:31,650 --> 00:06:36,000 they often have in mind a kind of narrow sense of morality. 49 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,090 That is, morality is consisting of certain sorts of prohibitions down to laws don't cheat, 50 00:06:42,090 --> 00:06:46,620 people don't steal, don't enslave people, don't kill people, and so on. 51 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:54,150 And whatever, whatever one thinks of all of that is as an account of morality. 52 00:06:54,210 --> 00:06:56,550 It is somewhat, I think, somewhat narrow. 53 00:06:58,140 --> 00:07:05,370 An alternative view is a little bit more expansive, and I think it's the one that might be needed in this context. 54 00:07:06,150 --> 00:07:13,350 That is the view of a moral age and not not simply as someone who might violate or not violate various rules, 55 00:07:14,130 --> 00:07:21,780 but who actually is a kind of a is the kind of agent that cares a lot about certain things. 56 00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:30,460 It cares fairly deeply about certain things. And most people are caring agents in this sense. 57 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:43,910 I'm not I don't have in mind, by the way, that kind of normative theory that the art of care ethics that although I guess this there's. 58 00:07:45,420 --> 00:07:49,050 There's there's a relationship there. 59 00:07:52,130 --> 00:07:58,610 So if you if you think about it, most people care pretty deeply about their own life, which is, 60 00:07:59,180 --> 00:08:04,610 of course, a source of trauma when it's threatened and when it's continuously threatened. 61 00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:12,050 The fear of death, the ongoing exposure to life threatening situations can be quite traumatic. 62 00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:24,799 And that seems to me to strongly suggest that what's in play here is the fact that the quite basic natural fact that 63 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:30,830 people particularly care about their life and they also care about the lives of various significant other people, 64 00:08:31,220 --> 00:08:38,630 so that when those people with the lives of the family and so on are threatened, that also or indeed they die. 65 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,050 That generates grief, which can be quite traumatic. 66 00:08:42,830 --> 00:08:46,640 Other things that people typically very deeply care about or their autonomy. 67 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:58,010 And of course, they very much care about being treated unjustly by others. 68 00:09:01,550 --> 00:09:04,640 What about the police and and the military? 69 00:09:04,910 --> 00:09:09,790 Well, they are as human beings, they care about all these things I've just mentioned. 70 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,060 But in addition, it seems that they have a particular. 71 00:09:18,990 --> 00:09:30,810 A set of virtues that they care very much about, that they seek to be approved of because they have these virtues and. 72 00:09:32,110 --> 00:09:40,120 If they think that they don't have these virtues, that can be a great source of shame to them. 73 00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:48,700 Let's call those virtues role based on the role of the police officer, the role of the military. 74 00:09:50,670 --> 00:09:56,470 Combatant. Is such that. 75 00:09:57,740 --> 00:10:01,490 They internalise a certain structure of virtues. 76 00:10:01,940 --> 00:10:08,720 Of course, those virtues are ones that a lot of other people have, too. But it's it's particularly important to them, let's put it that way. 77 00:10:09,980 --> 00:10:16,310 Loyalty to comrades. Physical courage, strength and skill. 78 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,870 With. With. With a weapon. Discipline. 79 00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:30,670 And something that's particularly relevant to moral injury, physical and mental resilience. 80 00:10:32,410 --> 00:10:46,300 And, and and the self-mastery, the ability to control oneself in in dangerous or life threatening situations is very much the fore. 81 00:10:49,120 --> 00:11:00,130 When it comes to the honour that is so important, police and military personnel, obviously that structure virtues is to some extent derived from the. 82 00:11:01,410 --> 00:11:05,160 The purposes of those of those occupations. 83 00:11:09,620 --> 00:11:15,880 What I'd like to. Particularly draw attention to is that. 84 00:11:19,020 --> 00:11:26,790 The self-worth that those individuals feel and the worth that they actually 85 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:34,919 have in the eyes of others is very much dependent on their capacity to this, 86 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,990 to have and to display mental and physical resilience and. 87 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:59,990 It's a source of. Considerable distress if they feel or others feel that they are weak or cowardly cowardice is something that is is not acceptable. 88 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:12,000 Okay. So if you think about this notion, this kind of fairly informal notion of a caring agent, 89 00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:18,390 which I'm contrasting with also the narrow notion of an agent that. 90 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:31,390 Is concerned not to engage in. Not to breach certain sorts of rules, not to breach rules of of against lying and cheating and so on and so forth. 91 00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:38,649 I'm suggesting that the caring agent is possessed of sort of can be thought of as having four components. 92 00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:43,300 The first component, obviously, is they've got some sort of caring attitude, which essentially a kind of emotion, 93 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:54,100 but it's not an emotion in a sense of a of a simple idea of like dislike or that kind or a sort of feeling. 94 00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:03,100 It's a complex attitude which which consists in part of of cognitive states, such as beliefs and so on. 95 00:13:04,060 --> 00:13:09,490 But right. It's an emotion and not simply a set of beliefs. 96 00:13:10,750 --> 00:13:13,780 So the content of the caring attitude is whatever they care about. 97 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:17,530 And I've suggested a number of things that care about their life. Most people do. 98 00:13:17,530 --> 00:13:19,930 They care about the lives of others. 99 00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:26,980 They they also care about the levels of they they like to they they care about whether or not they're approved of by other people. 100 00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:39,290 And of course, as an agent, as the caring agent obviously has agency, which translates roughly into autonomy, 101 00:13:40,130 --> 00:13:47,180 the which includes not simply freedom from from from interference by others, but self-mastery. 102 00:13:49,950 --> 00:14:01,310 And of course. That autonomy that they possess is partly in the service of the other things that the that the agent cares about. 103 00:14:02,570 --> 00:14:06,920 So they're the kind of components of this view. So if we look down. 104 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:15,030 At. Four different ways in which. 105 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:24,000 The moral identity of such an agent might be compromised or undermined. 106 00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:32,640 Because for the caring agent, if it's if it consists of a caring attitude, a certain content in terms of. 107 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,510 Caring about their life, caring for the loss of others and so on. Autonomy. 108 00:14:38,650 --> 00:14:48,400 Then we can look at. The moral identity understood in terms of the moral identity of a caring agent in this in this sense, 109 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:54,160 we can think of that that moral identity is being potentially compromised in at least four ways. 110 00:14:54,640 --> 00:15:02,750 The first line which might be compromised is that we're undermined is that the something deeply cared about is lost. 111 00:15:02,830 --> 00:15:12,310 So if you think of a mother losing her child, this might compromise or to some extent undermine their moral identity. 112 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:20,800 In this sense of moral identity, namely the moral identity of a caring agent. 113 00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:25,870 And hence phrases such as she lost part of herself and so on and so forth. 114 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,650 The second kind of way in which it might be diminished or undermined or compromised 115 00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:39,280 is some externally caused harm that overwhelms the Caring Agents Agency. 116 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:53,100 So the death of of comrades in war and saw may induce grief but also and this is a kind of a feature of of PTSD suffered by. 117 00:15:56,330 --> 00:16:05,840 Combatants is a sense of helplessness, and that kind of trauma can undermine the caring agents autonomy, their self mastery. 118 00:16:06,830 --> 00:16:12,409 This is called into question. They're overwhelmed by force. 119 00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:20,500 So fear in this in this context. And that helplessness compromises the. 120 00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:28,310 Their autonomy. And induces. 121 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:34,150 Or can induce and cause a psychological. 122 00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:40,820 Damage or, as I'm describing it, moral, moral injury. 123 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,670 And potentially compromised their moral identity. 124 00:16:46,420 --> 00:16:49,840 The third kind of case that comes to mind is. 125 00:16:53,130 --> 00:17:04,310 The conflict between what is cared about. As part of one's role identity and what mind, what one might. 126 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:15,820 Care about, as it were, prior to. The internalisation of that role identity. 127 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:26,920 So for example, if there's as I think most people as is the case with most people, there's a sort of deep aversion to killing people. 128 00:17:27,130 --> 00:17:31,480 That is it's it's profoundly distressing. 129 00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:39,250 But if the role is such that this is part of the role and you need to, 130 00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:47,590 as it were, internalise this and and be able to engage in this kind of activity, 131 00:17:48,970 --> 00:17:59,860 potentially routinely, then that might set up a kind of a kind of tension between these two elements of your of your identity. 132 00:18:00,070 --> 00:18:07,810 On the one hand, you're as it's part of your identity that was part of your identity that the aversion to killing. 133 00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:11,860 On the other hand, now that is a necessary part of the role. 134 00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:22,780 And it may be that tension which generates problems for for soldiers in particular. 135 00:18:24,730 --> 00:18:33,730 Okay. Now, the fourth kind of case is. Obviously simply. 136 00:18:35,770 --> 00:18:46,850 Kind of loss of your moral identity. Which is a feature of some extreme cases of PTSD, post-trauma traumatic stress disorder. 137 00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:53,540 Some of these guys reportedly simply cease to care about anything very much. 138 00:18:54,110 --> 00:19:00,230 Okay. So the caring agent is no longer caged literally about very much. 139 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,280 And that would seem to be a fairly profound loss of moral identity. 140 00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:19,070 Okay. So a couple of other points that some of the object of care, uh, a kind of constituent of the. 141 00:19:20,510 --> 00:19:21,650 Parts of one another. 142 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:28,780 So it's not just that you care about this and you care about this and you care about this thing, and they're separable compartmentalised. 143 00:19:28,790 --> 00:19:34,430 It's that in caring about this thing. You also kind of necessarily care about this other thing. 144 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,969 So I think of this at the individual level and then at the group level. 145 00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:44,030 At the individual level, perhaps the ongoing threat of being killed generates a condition of fearfulness. 146 00:19:45,050 --> 00:19:54,650 And that fearfulness, your fear, you fear for your life, may in turn undermine your morally informed, rational judgement. 147 00:19:54,650 --> 00:19:59,209 You're overwhelmed by the fear which undermines your autonomy. 148 00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:04,370 So now you've got a problem in terms of your capacity for self mastery, 149 00:20:05,930 --> 00:20:12,710 and that in turn may undermine your self-respect, since self-mastery is crucially important to you. 150 00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:21,290 So you've now got a kind of ramification process going on where one part of your identity is starting to be undermined, 151 00:20:21,290 --> 00:20:24,560 and that starts to undermine another element of your identity and so on. 152 00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:29,930 Another kind of case which is of ramifications through a group where. 153 00:20:31,850 --> 00:20:39,380 The loss of a sibling in a family or common in war is not simply your sort of particular direct loss that you feel profoundly, 154 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:49,210 you grieve deeply and saw and you hurt deeply, and you may even be injured in a manner that needs repair. 155 00:20:49,220 --> 00:21:01,670 It's not just a sort of temporary feeling, but that loss that you feel may be felt by a close relative of yours, that is your losses felt by them. 156 00:21:01,970 --> 00:21:05,540 So this loss ramaphosa's through the through the group. 157 00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:09,090 Okay. 158 00:21:11,870 --> 00:21:25,460 So I'm suggesting not that just returning to the standard view of this, I'm I'm not rejecting the claim that there's a distinction to be made between. 159 00:21:28,060 --> 00:21:34,820 A traumatic event which causes extreme distress and may cause cognitive impairments. 160 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:44,950 I am not rejecting the proposition that there's a distinction to be made between those traumatic events or sequence of events that are such that. 161 00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:50,450 You have morally transgressed or someone is morally transgressed against you. 162 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:58,249 Those ones, those kinds of plays on the one hand and the other kinds of case of traumatic events which 163 00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:06,410 generate extreme distress and and possible cognitive impairments which don't involve you. 164 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:16,750 Transgressing or don't involve someone else morally transgressing against you, wronging you. 165 00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:24,340 I'm not suggesting that is the distinction. What I'm suggesting it is both cases involve. 166 00:22:28,220 --> 00:22:33,129 The potential. To undermine your moral identity. 167 00:22:33,130 --> 00:22:41,510 And and the argument there is essentially that. There are certain things that you care deeply about. 168 00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:47,690 And if. If those things. 169 00:22:48,830 --> 00:22:57,680 Are taken away or in some way compromised that can undermine your moral identity because they are things that you deeply care about. 170 00:22:57,860 --> 00:23:03,079 And that can happen even in those cases where you haven't actually done anything morally wrong. 171 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,640 And indeed, nor has anyone this sincerely done any thing wrong to you. 172 00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:13,730 Okay. So what's the upshot of this? 173 00:23:15,290 --> 00:23:23,630 The upshot of this is if this view of the matter that I'm presenting is is is correct, it's not simply that. 174 00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:37,930 It's not simply that there's PTSD here and moral injury over here or even that moral injury is a kind of species of PTSD. 175 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:45,760 This view is correct. Actually, PTSD is a species of moral injury, a particularly serious kind of moral injury. 176 00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:53,350 Or more. More specifically, PTSD is a manifestation of a very serious moral injury. 177 00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:57,740 If this view is. Is. Used to be believed. 178 00:23:57,750 --> 00:24:02,850 Of course, it'll turn out that there are now at least two different species of moral injury, 179 00:24:02,850 --> 00:24:09,750 ones that involve transgressions or being transgressions against, on the one hand and the other places where that's not not the case. 180 00:24:10,020 --> 00:24:15,500 Of course, there's a sort of verbal point here if you want to insist that one of these kinds of cases, 181 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:19,530 moral injury and the other isn't you, you can obviously do so. 182 00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:23,130 But that doesn't affect the the larger theoretical point. 183 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:34,590 Okay. One of the one of the consequences of this is that since a lot of these traumatic events are beyond the control. 184 00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:43,290 Of the person morally injured. Of the person suffering from PTSD. 185 00:24:43,650 --> 00:24:46,380 Since a lot of these events are beyond their control, 186 00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:55,380 one can't actually now say that at least in some of these cases, that that the person could be morally responsible. 187 00:24:55,830 --> 00:25:00,000 They're obviously not morally responsible for the event that traumatised them. In the cases in question. 188 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:05,130 But now we can we can also obviously say that they're not actually moral, 189 00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:10,830 morally responsible for the damage, the psychological damage that's been done to them. 190 00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:19,670 And therefore, if this view that I've been pushing is correct and not actually morally responsible. 191 00:25:22,090 --> 00:25:30,640 For the diminution or the compromising or the diminishing of their moral identity resulting from those traumatic events. 192 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:43,760 So this seems to mean that your moral identity is to some extent, to some extent, not under your control, 193 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:53,930 which is to say that the boundaries of moral responsibility are not so, so to speak, coterminous with the boundaries of of moral identity. 194 00:26:00,610 --> 00:26:06,670 And and of course, it also would follow from that that it may be that if you're. 195 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:15,900 As a consequence of these traumatic events suffering. This loss of moral identity that. 196 00:26:17,260 --> 00:26:23,290 You know, if you are to be, so to speak, repaired, that would entail at least in these cases. 197 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:36,669 Some kind of. Collaboration or assistance from other people other than yourself, maybe your family members, 198 00:26:36,670 --> 00:26:41,170 maybe your colleagues, maybe your comrades, health professionals or whatever. 199 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:52,870 At least that may well be the case in many cases, of course, of the other cases where evidently that's simply the problem can't be resolved. 200 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:59,020 You can't be healed. The mechanism here seems to be from from what I can make out that. 201 00:27:02,260 --> 00:27:10,810 When these traumatic events take place, you engage in a process of dissociation, try to get some distance between yourself and the trauma, 202 00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:22,210 which is a actually a very useful typically a very useful device to to deal with with trauma to try and get some distance that keep it to some extent. 203 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:31,160 At a distance from yourself. But the problem is that if it's been very severe and long lasting and so on, 204 00:27:31,550 --> 00:27:37,580 you simply end up with this sort of unresolved psychological injury that you have, 205 00:27:37,970 --> 00:27:47,870 which you're not actually doing anything about and which which actually can you continually at times re-experience and therefore get retraumatized. 206 00:27:47,870 --> 00:27:56,479 So in order to deal with the the injury, you're going to have to, to some extent, come to terms with it or reinterpret it at all or something. 207 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,650 If it's if it's to be dealt with, if indeed it can be dealt with. 208 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:07,650 But at any rate, that process may involve assistance from other people. 209 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:18,110 Okay. So. If we think about combatants first and then I'll move to say a police. 210 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,850 Combatants. First, 211 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:29,649 the empirical evidence seems to be that killing in military combat is closely associated 212 00:28:29,650 --> 00:28:33,550 associated with moral injury and disassociated experiences of the carnage mentioned earlier. 213 00:28:33,910 --> 00:28:38,850 Violent behaviour and severe civilian life and functional impairment. 214 00:28:38,860 --> 00:28:47,590 So the mere fact that you engage in killing at least for some for some members of the military. 215 00:28:49,620 --> 00:28:58,649 Can have this kind of impact. And presumably it has this impact because deliberately killing another human being is 216 00:28:58,650 --> 00:29:03,490 is a highly morally significant event for the for the person who's doing the killing. 217 00:29:03,490 --> 00:29:13,070 It's also obviously pretty significant for the person who just got killed. And this is the case, even if. 218 00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:17,330 And this is a sort of important point, I think, in light of we've been saying before, 219 00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:21,930 even if the action is believed to be morally justified, they can it can still be. 220 00:29:24,340 --> 00:29:31,990 I can still be traumatic and indeed generate cause moral injury, at least in in many people. 221 00:29:34,220 --> 00:29:36,350 In addition to. 222 00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:48,290 So this sort of trauma, which is, as it were, part and parcel of the role, the problem can be compounded by various sort of organisational stresses, 223 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,990 an unsupportive leadership, excessive, excessively punitive discipline, resentment and so on and so forth. 224 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:00,590 One of the other issues in the military culture, which I mentioned before, 225 00:30:00,590 --> 00:30:07,380 is this emphasis on physical and mental resilience, which is very important in terms of being able to undertake the role. 226 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:13,040 So it's critical to the role, but it can. 227 00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:27,830 End up compounding the problem of moral injury. If moral injury is, is, is, is kind of it's just not accepted and is is regarded as stigmatised. 228 00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:32,989 It's regarded as just simply weakness that can't be tolerated. 229 00:30:32,990 --> 00:30:37,160 Then that, of course, can come rather than. 230 00:30:39,130 --> 00:30:41,410 Then taken to be what it is. Something that. 231 00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:55,999 Is is is a consequence of traumatic events and can be resolved and probably is such that at certain points will be experienced by anyone. 232 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,760 I mean, as it were, everyone's got a breaking point. 233 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:10,320 And if that's the case, then we've got a phenomenon that has to be kind of dealt with as an injury that can be presumably can be repaired, 234 00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:15,390 but not simply kind of stigmatised and rejected as some kind of fundamental weakness. 235 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,380 Of course, it gets difficult then to think about which is which. 236 00:31:22,620 --> 00:31:24,839 Do you have someone who's who, 237 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:36,810 who's criticised Bill for being weak as opposed to someone who's in some genuine sense suffering injury that needs to be needs to be repaired. 238 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:48,900 And another factor, of course, for. A military people is which can compound their problem is an unsupportive homeland community. 239 00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:53,340 This has been talked about a lot in relation to Vietnam veterans, for example. 240 00:31:54,120 --> 00:32:07,850 Okay. With turning now the police. Again, police routinely confront critical incidents, including road deaths, scraping bodies off the highway, 241 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,700 trauma other than death, confronting victims of child sex abuse, etc., etc. 242 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:21,140 These are morally significant events and moral injury may emerge after a long specia series of traumatic events. 243 00:32:21,890 --> 00:32:28,460 Typically when we looked at what was happening in the New South Wales Police, it was a case of. 244 00:32:31,850 --> 00:32:35,140 But it wasn't just sort of one or two or three traumatic events. 245 00:32:35,150 --> 00:32:40,700 It was kind of years and decades of confronting these these sorts of traumatic events before the. 246 00:32:44,910 --> 00:32:50,090 The sort of moral injury occurred. So I remember interviewing this guy that had a in. 247 00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:55,540 A very impressive police background particularly. 248 00:32:56,620 --> 00:33:03,790 He was the guy that the go to guy for sieges. He obviously was was a very mentally and physically tough guy. 249 00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:15,700 Unquestionably. But after 20 years of this, when I was talking to him, he had PTSD was being diagnosed with PTSD after 10 minutes, 250 00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:20,689 talking about him, talking about his, you know, what he'd been up to in his career. 251 00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:25,660 And so he fell apart in front of a sort of cry like a baby. 252 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,770 So he was clearly suffering moral injury. 253 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:38,560 But also it would be completely false, I think, to say, of this guy that he wasn't mentally and physically resilient. 254 00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:46,420 It's just that it at a certain point, the wear and tear took its toll. 255 00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:56,800 And with people like that, it's obviously problematic to just move straight into moralistic, into stigmatising the guy's weak. 256 00:33:56,810 --> 00:33:59,020 I mean, what presumably should have happened in his case? 257 00:33:59,020 --> 00:34:07,149 He should have been relieved of some of those very demanding tasks and given to a lesser workload 258 00:34:07,150 --> 00:34:14,920 and and been allowed to have some sort of period of of to get himself together and he's repaired. 259 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:21,969 And presumably, if that had been managed properly over many over a very long period of time, he never would have got to that state. 260 00:34:21,970 --> 00:34:33,270 Or at least that's the the suspicion or at least that's the same is highly likely, again, with police if there's an adverse adversary, 261 00:34:33,410 --> 00:34:39,520 if if if you want if the military has to is fighting on behalf of the of the of the community. 262 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,799 And the community doesn't accept or thinks that what they're doing is is wrong is the case in Vietnam. 263 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,800 Perhaps that is not going to be helpful. Similarly with the police, 264 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:54,910 if they're in an adversarial relationship with the with the the members of the public that they're supposed to be protecting and so on, 265 00:34:55,210 --> 00:35:01,330 that's also going to be a problem and and not helpful in terms of moral injury. 266 00:35:02,890 --> 00:35:06,700 Okay. So the let him have hammer going for time. 267 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:13,029 He asks you, you've let me out by calling the seven. 268 00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:16,990 So we've got 15 minutes or so before you leave to talk. 269 00:35:17,260 --> 00:35:21,010 Yes. Okay. So I'll try and speed things up a little bit below. 270 00:35:21,010 --> 00:35:28,480 I'm about two thirds of the way through, so. Okay. So I want to talk now a little bit about the the sort of dirty hands issue. 271 00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:39,449 Okay. So the role of this institutional role of combatants is to a critical dimension, to the role is this is to kill enemy combatants. 272 00:35:39,450 --> 00:35:44,730 So obviously, life is at stake when it comes to the. 273 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:53,669 The life, the role of a soldier, the role of police is to enforce law and they use harmful methods as well deception, 274 00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:56,880 coercion, manipulation and so on. 275 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,930 And again, something pretty important is at stake, namely freedom. 276 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,420 So these two roles are actually highly morally significant. 277 00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:13,139 There's a lot at stake. I mean, you're talking about life in the case of the military and you're talking about freedom in the case of the police, 278 00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:19,440 because ultimately the end point of their activities is, is someone being imprisoned. 279 00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:28,740 But these roles, obviously, as with all roles, typically internalised the purpose and activity, 280 00:36:28,740 --> 00:36:38,790 become elements as I'm arguing of ones of one's identity and being morally significant roles as opposed to, 281 00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:44,100 say, the role of a sandwich hand or something. Presumably then that caught up in your moral identity. 282 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:46,830 Unfortunately, however. 283 00:36:49,040 --> 00:37:01,759 In the case of the military and police, the basic methods or many of the basic methods that that are used are actually harmful methods and in fact, 284 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:14,690 methods such as obviously shooting people dead, but also in the case of the police coercion, use of intrusive surveillance and so on. 285 00:37:16,570 --> 00:37:24,610 Hopefully they're in the service of good ends that is genuinely in the service of national security or gender, in the service of law enforcement. 286 00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:30,849 But nevertheless, they are harmful methods which would normally be regarded as morally problematic. 287 00:37:30,850 --> 00:37:34,060 And that is that is part and parcel of the role. 288 00:37:34,330 --> 00:37:37,930 So and they have to be those harmful methods have to be internalised. 289 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:45,350 Now. It's not just a matter of running around sort of harming people. 290 00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:52,910 There's all sorts of moral constraints on them, principally in the case of the military discrimination, necessity and so on and so forth. 291 00:37:53,090 --> 00:37:54,770 So they are under moral constraints. 292 00:37:55,250 --> 00:38:09,020 But nevertheless, this this is a potentially dangerous dynamic in place here if if these harmful methods are so central to the role. 293 00:38:13,490 --> 00:38:18,590 And it brings to mind the notion of dirty hands. 294 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:26,079 And I'm not going to be suggesting that the use of harmful methods by police and military is necessarily dirty hands. 295 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:34,540 But. But. But. But. Dirty hands scenarios are not, as it were, far off, at least potentially. 296 00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:46,149 So what a dirty hand scenario as well. The the dirty hand scenario for those for those of you who haven't done much political philosophy 297 00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:52,330 or whatever are basically scenarios in which people not necessarily police or military, 298 00:38:52,330 --> 00:39:02,650 but but these are favourite examples, basically scenarios in which people do harm or indeed wrong people, but for a good end. 299 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,610 And some of the kind of salient examples around is where you. 300 00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:14,050 The notion of torturing a terrorist, for example, in order to save lives. 301 00:39:14,050 --> 00:39:21,250 The good in the saving lives, the dirty the dirty method is torture or in the policing case. 302 00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:27,030 You know, this guy's a drug dealer. You don't have enough evidence to nail him. 303 00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:32,010 So you fabricate the evidence. We load. Load up the evidence and you get your conviction. 304 00:39:33,570 --> 00:39:38,880 Of course, the dirty hands is kind of on a spectrum at one end of the dirty hand scenarios. 305 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:48,640 It's relatively fabricated evidence, which is certainly. A breach of the rules and and unjust and so on. 306 00:39:49,090 --> 00:39:49,720 But it's not. 307 00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:58,959 It's not quite the same thing, for example, is torturing an innocent person to get information to save a large number of lives so that the as it were, 308 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,350 the dirtiness of the dirty hands can be very dirty. A whole list would. 309 00:40:05,610 --> 00:40:16,139 But. I draw your attention to the fact that the the dirty hands is is not necessarily all that far 310 00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:21,780 away from from the harmful if harmful methods that might be used by the police or the military. 311 00:40:22,020 --> 00:40:29,700 So if we start thinking about not sort of just routine arrest of of of people, 312 00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:35,730 if you start thinking about some of the might be regarded as more morally dubious. 313 00:40:37,830 --> 00:40:43,830 But nevertheless, in some jurisdictions, legal methods used by, say, 314 00:40:43,830 --> 00:40:51,730 police or military say enhanced interrogation and enhanced interrogation that might be legal in some juries to not torture. 315 00:40:51,750 --> 00:41:03,840 But or if you think about informants in in in an organisation in which the informant is a criminal of engaging in serious crime, 316 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:10,319 but you're not actually going to going to arrest this person for giving a good information. 317 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,750 So you turn a blind eye to various great criminal activity on the part of the informant. 318 00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:23,550 And in the case of Northern Ireland, some of the serious crimes could include actually things like murder at any rate. 319 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:31,890 The point I'm making here is that it's not necessarily such a long step from the use of lawful, 320 00:41:32,250 --> 00:41:41,670 harmful methods by police and military to dirty hands scenarios which where the methods are unlawful. 321 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:51,000 There's a there's a potential for a kind of slippery slope, slippery slope, slippery, slippery slope. 322 00:41:52,980 --> 00:42:05,940 And the slope could become quite slippery and go beyond even dirty hands scenarios because today's use of some unlawful method. 323 00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:13,350 In the service of some good end might be tomorrows. 324 00:42:15,860 --> 00:42:25,600 In the case of the military. Activity, which probably isn't even in the service of a good. 325 00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:33,560 But that might be rationalised as such. So. On the one hand, there's controlled aggression in accordance with. 326 00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:49,770 The moral, relevant moral principles. But then you've got the phenomenon which is out of Jonathan shows because of of berserk some guy going berserk. 327 00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:57,390 Well, first, I mean, when I just come there, I couldn't believe Americans could do things like this in Vietnam, another human being. 328 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,170 But then I became that we went through villages and killed everything. I mean, everything. 329 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,400 And that was all right with me. So the sort of slippery moral slope. 330 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:18,970 In the policing situation. This is one from. John Black regards the police officer and this was from his own experience. 331 00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:30,640 I'll let you read that. But basically. He was the Reserve Constable and he joined the police service. 332 00:43:32,310 --> 00:43:40,860 Bump, bump, bump, heavyset, plainclothes officer descending the stairs with one of the feet tucked prisoners feet tucked under his arm. 333 00:43:41,940 --> 00:43:47,880 His head bouncing from one. Step to the to the next. 334 00:43:53,060 --> 00:43:58,180 The. The prisoner in question was a sex offender. 335 00:44:05,630 --> 00:44:11,530 The treatment is, to say the least. Excessive. 336 00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:16,990 The justification. Well, I've got to get him to sign up. 337 00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:23,680 No admission. No confession, no conviction. 338 00:44:27,950 --> 00:44:33,260 The Reserve Constable is kind of in a state of what the. 339 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,030 And then the last couple of lines the Reserve Constable says did you have to. 340 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:55,910 And the response is done as as a detective. I guess I just got into it again. 341 00:45:00,780 --> 00:45:07,080 In the case of the berserk combatant and this. 342 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,060 And this detective, obviously. 343 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,320 Their behaviour is is morally, to say the least, problematic. 344 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:25,110 But. It's you can kind of understand how it might come about in certain contexts. 345 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:33,520 And the problem is that not just what the what they're doing to victims, but in this context, what they what they end up doing themselves. 346 00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:41,740 Because in both in both cases, they're prime candidates for for PTSD and serious moral injury. 347 00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:46,570 Okay. So one of the key things then is that. 348 00:45:48,620 --> 00:45:55,880 In relation to harmful methods, you've got to kind of hold the line on heart, on the use of harmful methods by the police, the military, 349 00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:04,910 such that we don't get this slippery slope happening and therefore don't get or at least minimise the kind of moral injury, 350 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,829 the moral compromises, the loss of moral identity and so on. 351 00:46:09,830 --> 00:46:17,130 That may come with it and. Putting matters in a kind of rather simple light. 352 00:46:17,140 --> 00:46:22,290 What we need is that the harmful methods are justified by objective moral principles. 353 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,420 Secondly, that the that the action is lawful. 354 00:46:28,990 --> 00:46:29,740 And thirdly, 355 00:46:29,740 --> 00:46:44,680 that this community consent to that law so that we're all on the same page with these with these harmful methods and that vote that requirement, 356 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,590 that that threefold requirement is not necessarily all that easy to get. 357 00:46:48,610 --> 00:46:54,280 I mean, there's often the case that the law doesn't necessarily track morality for whatever reason. 358 00:46:54,280 --> 00:47:00,010 And sometimes the community doesn't. Isn't in line with with objective methods and so on. 359 00:47:00,460 --> 00:47:04,030 And you get a lot of problems when those those things don't line up. 360 00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:11,610 Okay. But clearly I'm suggesting the line should be you need to hold the line here. 361 00:47:11,610 --> 00:47:17,380 And and that threefold distinction allows you to maintain the distinction between the Dirty Harry. 362 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,059 Sometimes the police thing is called Dirty Harry Dirty Hands scenarios, 363 00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:27,180 because typically Dirty Harry Dirty Hands scenarios do not meet all of those three requirements. 364 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,820 The methods in question are not typically morally justified. 365 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:40,960 They may be justified in the mind of the individual because of the good end that they see themselves of serving. 366 00:47:41,530 --> 00:47:46,840 They're not typically not lawful in the not in accordance with the community's will. 367 00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:55,780 So there's a slippery slope from. Harmful methods to dirty hands to something even possibly worse. 368 00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:59,689 I guess I just got into it and going berserk in a in a village. 369 00:47:59,690 --> 00:48:04,280 But the line needs to be held against that, as it were, that slope. 370 00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:13,760 Okay. So coming to the final last couple of slides, reducing moral injury is a kind of wish list. 371 00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:28,040 So I've suggested. I've suggested to you that moral injuries, that far from moral injury being a kind of just a mere species of a of a larger PTSD, 372 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,120 serious psychological damage problem that actually is quite central to it. 373 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:44,459 Of secondly suggested that there's a kind of feature of policing and military, let's call it the sort of dirty hands scenarios, 374 00:48:44,460 --> 00:48:54,960 which sets up a dangerous moral dynamic in those occupations, which is conducive, if you like, 375 00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:02,760 to moral injury because it can corrode moral character and therefore moral identity. 376 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,950 Given all that, what what's to be done? 377 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:18,940 Well, you know, kind of this is a kind of a wish list, but, uh, I'll have a go at this now, so. 378 00:49:18,970 --> 00:49:25,480 Well, the first thing that probably needs to be done is that you need to recruit mentally and physically resilient people. 379 00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:34,059 I mean, there are probably many people, including possibly probably soft academics like myself, 380 00:49:34,060 --> 00:49:43,209 who simply don't have the the the the the underlying level of resilience to to take take on these occupations. 381 00:49:43,210 --> 00:49:46,270 And there's various ways that people can be tested. 382 00:49:46,270 --> 00:49:50,919 And so but. This is partly a normative question, it seems to me. 383 00:49:50,920 --> 00:50:02,170 That is what what levels of resilience are ones that ought to be in place if you're going to be a police officer or a combatant. 384 00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:07,690 What are the normative standards, if you like, of physical and mental resilience? 385 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:17,200 Then there's a need for ongoing training in moral injury and coping mechanisms, including for supervisors and those in command. 386 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,809 And there's a kind of pretty difficult issue here, I think, 387 00:50:22,810 --> 00:50:29,950 that calls for a certain degree of reflection on those on the part of those people between. 388 00:50:31,870 --> 00:50:41,680 Identifying and working to prevent or relieving moral injury on the one hand, as opposed to simply accommodating, indulging, if you like. 389 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:48,300 A lack of mental resilience and a simply a weakness. 390 00:50:49,140 --> 00:50:56,600 And that has that that is a fairly difficult. Process to manage and calls for some degree of. 391 00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:03,590 The reflection. I've got a general point. 392 00:51:03,590 --> 00:51:08,989 I guess it's not a good idea to commit the military to fight unjust or unwinnable wars, 393 00:51:08,990 --> 00:51:14,450 because it's not going to be very helpful in terms of the levels of moral injury. 394 00:51:14,450 --> 00:51:18,679 It's not a likewise not analogous but analogy. 395 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:26,809 It's not a good idea to get the police to enforce unjust laws or or more likely to in liberal democracies is to get 396 00:51:26,810 --> 00:51:37,010 them to sort of all by themselves solve socio economic problems that they cannot actually solve all by themselves, 397 00:51:37,010 --> 00:51:42,379 such as, for example, drug addiction, because they're going to be on a hiding to nothing. 398 00:51:42,380 --> 00:51:50,209 And this is not very helpful in terms of preserving the moral identities. 399 00:51:50,210 --> 00:51:59,900 And so another kind of general point is that and this is it, there are a lot of entirely all terrible stresses. 400 00:51:59,900 --> 00:52:03,860 There's the stresses that are part and parcel of the job and that there's nothing to be done about them. 401 00:52:03,860 --> 00:52:05,929 That's the nature of the work. 402 00:52:05,930 --> 00:52:14,570 But then there are these stresses, a lot of organisational stresses, for example, that are all terrible and they're compounding the problem. 403 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:20,180 But, but it's not, it's not necessarily that they, they obtain. 404 00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:25,910 So giving people poor equipment, inadequate training. 405 00:52:28,370 --> 00:52:31,970 Dysfunctional rotation processes, etc. etc. 406 00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:37,400 So there are various organisational stresses that are all trouble which should be looked at. 407 00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:43,430 Then in terms of supervision and so on. 408 00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:51,040 A fair and reasonable workload is one of the problems, which is very unhelpful is, for example, 409 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:59,750 in the military is is putting some people at much greater risk than others in an unfair, unfair way. 410 00:53:00,740 --> 00:53:06,230 That's not going to be helpful. Secondly, it's important, and relatedly, to have supportive leadership. 411 00:53:09,220 --> 00:53:13,660 Which means that people that it's that moral injury is understood and monitored 412 00:53:14,110 --> 00:53:18,310 and that capacity for making the right kind of discretionary judgements. 413 00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:28,830 In relation to moral injury versus sort of indulging weakness or whatever. 414 00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:38,580 But that is quite a difficult exercise when you when it has to be undertaken in the context of the stigmatism issue. 415 00:53:41,790 --> 00:53:44,999 In relation to the dirty hands scenarios and the slippery slopes. 416 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:55,740 The issue there is partly, it seems obviously clear guidelines and so on, but but also moral training and a degree of moral reflection. 417 00:53:55,980 --> 00:54:01,200 Obviously, when people are in the middle of arresting someone or engaged in a firefight, 418 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,069 we've got to sit there having a process of moral deliberation. But nevertheless, 419 00:54:05,070 --> 00:54:09,510 there are plenty of there's plenty of downtime and win in which people can think about and reflect 420 00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:14,549 on this and try to think through what would be the right thing to do in this or that scenario. 421 00:54:14,550 --> 00:54:22,170 And and that that would be helpful in terms of dealing with potentially problematic dirty hand scenarios. 422 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,220 And then, of course, there's the issue of involving psychological injury, 423 00:54:28,610 --> 00:54:35,030 moral injury professionals, combat stress control units in actual theatres of war. 424 00:54:36,050 --> 00:54:44,090 Psychological is a critical instance. One of the regular counselling for particularly at risk groups such as undercover operatives, 425 00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:48,350 one of the one of the issues here is that a lot of the the counsellors have to. 426 00:54:49,580 --> 00:54:56,440 And that is that becomes quite a difficult role in that. They've got to understand the nature of the enterprise. 427 00:54:56,450 --> 00:55:00,109 I mean, what you don't want is, you know, 428 00:55:00,110 --> 00:55:07,519 so a newly minted psych graduate running along and doing a sort of overly caring and sharing thing with 429 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:15,379 somehow cop or military person at a at a critical incident that probably isn't going to work too well, 430 00:55:15,380 --> 00:55:21,450 in fact. Conduct a lot of interviews with such people, and I can assure you, didn't didn't help. 431 00:55:22,830 --> 00:55:27,450 And then finally, what they referred to often is the communal ization of moral injury, 432 00:55:29,010 --> 00:55:38,340 since the military is going to war on or only to be going to war on behalf of the community. 433 00:55:38,730 --> 00:55:45,480 And since the police are enforcing the community's laws and and working to. 434 00:55:47,650 --> 00:55:49,660 Ensure the safety of the members of the community, 435 00:55:49,660 --> 00:55:57,850 then there's presumably some sort of collective responsibility on the part of the community in relation to this issue of of moral injury. 436 00:56:00,490 --> 00:56:03,850 And it's amongst the soldiers and police. 437 00:56:03,940 --> 00:56:04,330 Thanks.