1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:11,129 I'm very pleased to be able to introduce our first speakers across the seminars for Hillary Reagan Welsh from University of New England. 2 00:00:11,130 --> 00:00:21,420 And he's going to be reading paper in think good intentions in political life against virtue, possibly for those who haven't been here before. 3 00:00:21,870 --> 00:00:28,950 The format is somewhat flexible. We have a talk, we have a discussion, and then it comes to this. 4 00:00:28,980 --> 00:00:33,150 We have a glass of high quality, some cross wine. How we do it all in 90 minutes. 5 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:36,870 So without further ado, take it away. Thanks for having me. 6 00:00:37,650 --> 00:00:45,140 Part of the background of this was, I suppose it's a few years ago now in the compendium of political philosophy. 7 00:00:45,150 --> 00:00:51,330 I think the. Blackwill there's an article by Geoffrey Brennan about the contribution of economics to political philosophy, 8 00:00:51,660 --> 00:00:55,319 and there's a climate in it that one of the main contributions of political philosophy, 9 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:02,960 of sort of economics to political philosophy was this idea of virtue, parsimony, and explain that as we go through. 10 00:01:03,540 --> 00:01:04,680 But in some ways, 11 00:01:04,980 --> 00:01:11,730 the idea can be caught up here in the sort of Hume's you contriving a system of government and fixing the civil checks and the Constitution. 12 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,770 Every man ought to be supposed to know that and have no other enclose actions than provinces. 13 00:01:17,730 --> 00:01:25,380 So generally, I think it's a commonplace of political theory that the good life and the good society are intimately interconnected. 14 00:01:26,130 --> 00:01:32,490 In order to maximise their chances of living well, we require a well-ordered polity and this is one of the fundamental challenges of politics. 15 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:38,760 Typically, we regard a good society as, amongst other things, a society that has well-designed institutions. 16 00:01:39,750 --> 00:01:44,850 Now, one crucial aspect of this design challenge concerns itself or concerns the relationship 17 00:01:44,850 --> 00:01:49,890 between individual virtue and fluke political institutions that are desired. 18 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:58,920 Is it in general a good idea for those institutions that demand from participating individuals a virtue rich in or virtue rich input? 19 00:01:59,790 --> 00:02:03,840 Or should we prefer those which are thrifty with respect to virtue inputs? 20 00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:19,530 So I mean, that's the central question that I'm looking at, whether or not we want to economise on virtue or not. 21 00:02:19,950 --> 00:02:29,520 So my aim is to argue that moral virtue still has a role to play in the project of fostering good society on the planet. 22 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,630 So I think it's a common feature of traditional political philosophy. 23 00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:48,710 Uh, well, one common feature is the assumption that in order to realise a good society require virtuous citizens. 24 00:02:50,630 --> 00:02:57,590 And by virtue of my virtue, I really mean here is being oriented towards the common good or being other regarding. 25 00:02:57,590 --> 00:03:02,270 So I don't have a more substantive account of virtue in mind. 26 00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:07,550 What I mean is, look what I in the title of the paper, good intentions are something like good intentions. 27 00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:12,140 So when I'm talking about being recalling virtuous citizens, 28 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:16,280 what I'm talking about is that you have people who are oriented towards the common good 29 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:21,890 or or another way of putting it is the other regarding in some significant sense. 30 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,060 Now I know. It's like, you know, something, you know? 31 00:03:25,580 --> 00:03:30,739 But the one thing I don't want to get into too much is, you know, the fun details of different historical figures. 32 00:03:30,740 --> 00:03:35,420 But I would take, you know, part of the idea of Plato's Republic to be something like this, 33 00:03:35,420 --> 00:03:42,970 that in order to generate a good society, what we need are good citizens and the most. 34 00:03:42,980 --> 00:03:46,860 But some of the more extreme versions of this you find in some of the utopian socialists. 35 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:55,219 So somebody like Charles Boyer who thought that the solution to the horrors of commercial society is for all individuals to unite into communities, 36 00:03:55,220 --> 00:04:05,750 government relations of fraternity. So his idea was that we need to I mean, here on the eve of the market, he saw himself as an enemy of the market. 37 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:12,680 And what he wanted was small communities in which people when we their interactions with government with some ideal of universal amity. 38 00:04:12,950 --> 00:04:18,470 So in social relations, you might have within a family or idealised version of the Russians we might have in the family. 39 00:04:19,010 --> 00:04:28,930 He was hoping to universalise or at least make the governing principles of the citizen more muscular communism and so on. 40 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,880 So this is what I'm going to call a virtue, rich conception of the good society. 41 00:04:35,270 --> 00:04:41,440 So a virtue, its conception of the good society demands rich virtue input on the part of those who are members of such a society in order to function. 42 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:51,440 And a corollary is that if people are not so motivated and such virtue inputs are not forthcoming, then society won't flourish. 43 00:04:53,480 --> 00:05:01,820 And indeed, many of the visions of a good society like for years cannot work unless the citizenry are motivated by the, you know, the common good. 44 00:05:03,950 --> 00:05:09,380 Okay. So I think this is quite a natural view and you hear it put forward by various. 45 00:05:11,930 --> 00:05:19,490 You know, politicians at different points. But if it's a natural view, there is, at least since in century, an alternative, 46 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,500 according to which if we're faced with toying with choice between two social systems. 47 00:05:25,130 --> 00:05:31,100 But all things being equal, we should prefer that alternative, which requires the least virtue on the part of the citizenry. 48 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:37,730 And I should call this the tradition of virtue parsimony. And I want to just briefly say that we find it in Mandeville. 49 00:05:37,910 --> 00:05:43,250 So so you can trace its origins and early modern philosophy with Bernard Manville in something called a fatal disease. 50 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:49,650 And this is the quote. I mean, I don't know if anybody's read Mandeville, the. 51 00:05:50,930 --> 00:05:56,030 It's a long and difficult piece of poetry, if you might put it that way. 52 00:05:57,590 --> 00:06:02,510 Thus, every part was full of us, the whole mess of paradise. Such were the blessings of that state. 53 00:06:02,510 --> 00:06:07,610 Their crimes conspired to make them great. The worst of all the multitudes of something for the common good. 54 00:06:09,170 --> 00:06:16,070 And though is summed up in the slogan, which is the sum total of five of these private vies public benefit. 55 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:25,130 Manuel also writes that human frailties may be turned to the advantage of civil society and modes of supply the place of moral virtue. 56 00:06:26,180 --> 00:06:33,499 Now, this has at first bear a paradox, but I think only if one holds a sort of compositional idea or composition of thought. 57 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:37,730 The nerds have good society and you need to have good members. 58 00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:45,440 So the idea would be something like an informal logic that talk about the fallacy of composition. 59 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:52,760 So I suppose the idea is roughly and some of the man who would say it, there's no reason to think that the law would have a good hold. 60 00:06:52,770 --> 00:07:01,950 You need to have good parts. And so but it does bear paradox and certainly it's certainly counter to a great deal of political discourse. 61 00:07:02,030 --> 00:07:07,040 You know, historically in political philosophy and then in contemporary political society, 62 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,140 you know, it's always you know, it's not what you can do for society. It's almost aside from the view, it's what you can do for society. 63 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:20,600 Although we might concede Vanderbilt biological possibility of lives giving rise to public benefits. 64 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,770 There's little explanation to be found in Manville about how this might function, 65 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:33,140 how private vices might give rise to public benefit that the commencement of that task fell to Adam Smith and the invisible hand. 66 00:07:35,330 --> 00:07:42,709 So whose idea? The invisible hand furnished a mechanism or an explanatory mechanism for explaining how could be the people maybe not being vicious, 67 00:07:42,710 --> 00:07:49,340 but certainly being self-interested could give rise to public benefits. So I've got the quote here that you've all come across. 68 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:55,610 It's not from the benevolence of the butcher, the proof of life that we expect at dinner, but from their regard for their own self-interest. 69 00:07:56,790 --> 00:08:02,850 Okay. So the idea is self-interest or self-love is causally efficacious in the production of certain material social benefits. 70 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:05,910 Just talking self-interest, not vicious or malevolent behaviour. 71 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:11,790 I mean, I think Mandel as much black a figure in a way, because he's actually talking between businessmen. 72 00:08:12,030 --> 00:08:17,940 The butcher, the baker here are not acting viciously, they're just simply looking out for their own interests. 73 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:31,030 Now, I think in order to get the argument going, we're going to go with this in terms of the principle of virtue passing. 74 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:34,770 I think there's two assumptions or two implications for institutional design. 75 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,630 One is the naive assumption, you know, and this is probably more controversial. 76 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:46,950 This is what I'm getting from him. I'm not suggesting this is what Smith is holding, but I think it ought to be the principal virtue, parsimony. 77 00:08:46,950 --> 00:08:52,560 And it's something like this going in. And you also need the idea of governing by self-interest. 78 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:58,170 The naive assumption is that those designing social institutions should assume that human beings are self-interested. 79 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:02,760 That's talk influence of political writers and established it as a maxim than 80 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,600 contriving any system of government and fixing the civil checks of the Constitution. 81 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:11,610 Every man ought to be supposed to nave and to have no other engine all his actions and private interest. 82 00:09:12,530 --> 00:09:17,810 Okay. And the second on those who fell asleep, we should govern by self-interest. 83 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:22,610 So the idea is the conclusion is that given this fact about human nature, 84 00:09:22,610 --> 00:09:26,390 we should attempt to govern by indulging that self-interest rather than sitting at policies against it. 85 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:32,570 Presuming that doesn't exist, anyone from whom we find by this interest we must govern him. 86 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:37,760 And by means of that, make him, notwithstanding his insatiable avarice and ambitious, cooperate in public good. 87 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:46,800 We find a similar point in Bentham also. So it's a it's a fine line of thought that gets going here of institutional design. 88 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:51,600 So make it it's man's interest to observe that conduct, which is his duty to observe. 89 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:57,090 If you follow this on raising, then choosing between different ways of organising society in social institutions, 90 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,500 we should clearly opt for that which relies less on virtue and which panders to human self-interest. 91 00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:11,440 Okay. So what I then come up with is what I call the principle of virtue parsimony. 92 00:10:11,450 --> 00:10:15,379 And it's roughly this that Brendan's talking about in different Brendan's talking about in 93 00:10:15,380 --> 00:10:20,210 the companion to political philosophy when he's talking about the contribution of economics. 94 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,430 And the idea is that if we're faced with a choice between two or more forms of institutional design, 95 00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:30,770 then all other things being equal, we should prefer the one that requires less virtue input from a citizens. 96 00:10:30,770 --> 00:10:36,090 The one that requires more. Okay. 97 00:10:36,110 --> 00:10:46,940 So so far so good. Now, I mean, I think one thing to note here is that there is this question of the reference to Brennan. 98 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,640 The idea is that the central contribution economic stability policy is a virtual scarce. 99 00:10:54,780 --> 00:11:02,490 Now. I mean, clearly, it is something that economists have discussed. 100 00:11:03,180 --> 00:11:07,440 And you find I mean, he's James Buchanan, for instance, Evan Smith on which are some bikers. 101 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:13,350 He says, I do not know the fruit salesman personally and I have no particular interest in his well-being theories, Supercuts, 102 00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:19,290 etc. I do not know and have no need to know whether it is in the Dallas publicity extremely wealthy or somewhere in between. 103 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:31,030 If the two of us were in such exchanges now, and I think part of it is in contemporary economics, 104 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:34,899 there's a tendency to try to give a scarcity definition of economics. 105 00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:47,389 So since a lot of. Robbins the 1976 comic songs of 1946, there's been a tendency to see economics as the discipline which studies human behaviour, 106 00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:51,750 as the relationship between man's ends and scarce means, which have alternative uses. 107 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:57,750 And obviously one of the ideas here is that virtue in that sense is is. 108 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,690 But I don't really want to say I don't want to say the science is only coming from economics. 109 00:12:05,390 --> 00:12:11,600 I think misleading midstream to maintain the influence of this idea is to silence the influence of economic theory, 110 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:18,720 because I think in a way the principle has an appeal to that, 111 00:12:18,830 --> 00:12:24,110 has a certain explanatory appeal because of certain social scientists in the West in particular. 112 00:12:24,890 --> 00:12:29,210 One of these. One reason it has some appeal is basically the success of market economies. 113 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,040 So it provides an explanation for that success. 114 00:12:34,430 --> 00:12:36,350 They succeed because they rely on self-interest. 115 00:12:37,370 --> 00:12:44,090 Markets are successful for the very reason that Adam Smith pointed to when he founded the food chain before him. 116 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:50,990 So the benefits of the market are often said to derive from the dedicated selfishness of economic agents and any virtue input. 117 00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:57,770 So any virtue input being there, an invisible hand will fail to deliver its optimal outcomes? 118 00:12:58,190 --> 00:12:59,470 I think so. That's one aspect. 119 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:07,730 But there's another I mean, probably less important, but the failure of various utopian projects, which relied heavily on what, you know, virtue, 120 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:18,980 input, virtue of which political projects might also be seen as reason for preferring or endorsing the principle of the virtue parsimony. 121 00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:28,639 I mean, there's a story among I'm from Australia, there's all this, but there's in the late 1890s there was a I mean in the many of these, 122 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:39,260 but there was a group of disenchanted socialists or unionists who left the country after the three strikes were broken and went and set up a commune, 123 00:13:39,830 --> 00:13:45,980 you know, New Colony, New Australia and Paraguay. And the idea of this New Australia was that it would be founded on, you know, 124 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:51,440 socialist principles by people who were the only there'd be no market, you know, you know, hierarchies. 125 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,430 And it would be just governed purely by, you know, some sort of universal amity. 126 00:13:56,270 --> 00:14:06,800 And the failure of some of those kinds of projects are often given as more grounds for not for endorsing virtue personally. 127 00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:10,819 Right now, of course, you know, I'm not the first person to talk about this. 128 00:14:10,820 --> 00:14:15,860 The one person who's had sort of fame is Albert Hirschman in an article called Against Parsimony. 129 00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:22,370 And he argues that sponsoring virtue parsimonious institutions undermines the virtue we do possess. 130 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,910 He suggests that our promotion of institutions that idealise self-interest affects our other regarding sympathies. 131 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:34,610 So that's one line of response to this idea of virtue class. 132 00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:43,220 And funnily enough, he suggests, okay, suggest that promotion of these institutions undermines our good will if you want to do it that way. 133 00:14:43,610 --> 00:14:49,700 Interestingly, Brendan Hanlon in a later article mockingly referred to this as the muscle wastage thesis. 134 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:59,270 But you know, it's the idea that if you don't express the virtues of some kind of other regarding attitudes, 135 00:14:59,660 --> 00:15:04,510 then those professors who waste away way as if you don't exercise any muscles. 136 00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:07,460 What's the base? I mean, I sort of prefer to live in a milky Way. 137 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:15,020 Now, there is, of course, a lot of empirical literature that is at least, you know, if it's not a on this point, it's relevant. 138 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:17,960 And one is the so-called crowding out thesis. 139 00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:24,680 An economist, Bruno Frei, has done a lot of work to show that money undermines certain intrinsic motivations. 140 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:32,150 So markets might be said to create out of virtue, and that would be one way of responding to this idea of virtue parsimony, 141 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:35,870 which is it's not the main line I'm going to run you on. 142 00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:40,160 I'm not going to disagree with it, but that's not the argument I'm going to run. 143 00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:49,040 But equally, there are crowding in theses. So. Famously, Voltaire said, Enter the exchange of London implies more respect. 144 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:55,280 A little than so should say the many, of course. You'll see there agents from all nations, the symbol for the utility of mankind. 145 00:15:55,850 --> 00:15:56,839 They're the Jews, Mohammed. 146 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:03,260 And the Christians are with one another as if they were the same religion and give the name infidel only to those who go bankrupt. 147 00:16:04,070 --> 00:16:14,209 Right now, this again is I mean Hirschman in another book calls his to do commerce thesis facilitated commerce. 148 00:16:14,210 --> 00:16:20,300 Rather than making us vicious or lying, the loss actually softens us. 149 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:29,850 And softens us and makes us. Morally improves a moral standing, if want to put it that way. 150 00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:31,379 I mean, Smith has a similar line. 151 00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:40,080 At one point he talks about how the Dutch, who are the most merchant, the mercantile nation, are the most timely, you know, the most punctual. 152 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,809 And given the you take that to be a virtue. He thinks it's an example. 153 00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:49,110 If it's honest, please tell me. Okay. 154 00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:54,660 So and that's one way. I mean, this debate about trading and in crowding out is where a lot of the debate about, 155 00:16:55,380 --> 00:17:00,000 you know, the relative effect of markets on our sort of virtue has gone. 156 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,740 I want to talk a slightly different story in a stronger way would be that markets require virtue. 157 00:17:05,130 --> 00:17:11,970 So as and that's again, some people say, you know, I mean take Kenneth Arrow here in the absence of trust, 158 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:16,920 opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation would have to be foregone norms of social behaviour, 159 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,320 including ethical, moral codes, maybe reactions in society to compensate for market failures. 160 00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:25,790 I think that's an even stronger line. 161 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:34,230 Would say not this decision undermines the market's underlying virtue, but that, you know, that actually requires virtue. 162 00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:41,910 Now, what I want to do is just take a slightly different tack. I think there are virtual accommodating accounts of how those material benefits, 163 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:47,620 the market rise and also chance of why virtually rich social channels are since failed. 164 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,710 But if we typically will explain enough of this phenomena, and given that are equally plausible, 165 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:59,110 then there are further normative grounds for preferring the virtue, accommodating accounts over the parsimonious ones. 166 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:05,410 So I'm not actually, I'm not first when I'm not saying the virtue of person is false. 167 00:18:05,740 --> 00:18:10,750 What I'm trying to do is undermine some of the epistemic grounds for preferring the principle of virtue parsimony. 168 00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:16,990 Okay. All right. Now, it's often assumed. 169 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:26,080 It's often assumed that if you are opposed to the virtue, rich, and if you think that there is some kind of problem with projects, 170 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:32,260 that role of institutional arrangements that rely on people having virtues, that you must therefore endorse parsimony. 171 00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:39,670 And one quote, Alexander Hamilton, the federalist, the assumption, universal venality of human nature. 172 00:18:40,060 --> 00:18:46,270 This is less an era in political raising, the assumption of universal rectitude and the economy. 173 00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:51,070 So what I'm trying to say is it's not as if we had to choose entirely between either virtue, rich or virtue. 174 00:18:51,520 --> 00:19:00,010 Parsimonious accounts. I suggest that I call him is false, since that overlooks another position that I'll call political and perfectionism. 175 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:07,780 You might think of it as a middle path according to the imperfection, as human beings are one consistent account of human nature, 176 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:15,520 I suppose self-interested but not devoid of other, regarding concerns or concern for the common good and to subject to various kinds of temptation. 177 00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:21,520 So for the political perfectionist, the aim of political institutions is not to minimise the requirements of virtue. 178 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:28,450 Rather, it's that we should avoid presenting agents with institutional moral hazards which may tempted into socially damaging behaviour. 179 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:34,710 Now there's a further debate and in a way you might actually think this is what John looks on about. 180 00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:38,669 And as I said before, I mean, I'm not enough of a scholar. 181 00:19:38,670 --> 00:19:41,910 So if it's if this account is laughing, then so be it. 182 00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:47,610 And that's good. There's a quote, but if it's not, then I'm not for what I want to do is just present, 183 00:19:47,610 --> 00:19:53,180 want to take the, you know, a position in between parsimony and the virtue rich. 184 00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:57,179 And if that's what Locke is defending, then fine. 185 00:19:57,180 --> 00:20:02,010 But it's a quote from Locke. I doubt not that it's unreasonable for men to be judges in their own cases. 186 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:04,620 Self love will make men possible for themselves and their friends. 187 00:20:05,130 --> 00:20:09,060 And on the other side, ill natured passion and revenge will carry them too far in punishing others. 188 00:20:09,390 --> 00:20:16,020 And it's nothing but confusion and disorder will follow. God has certainly appointed government to restrain the partial and violence of men. 189 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:24,360 Now, what I'm saying is, I mean, Locke is saying here to a parcel, and as I say, I don't necessarily want to get into the whole debate. 190 00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:34,800 But and that's, I suppose, what I'm saying, we're imperfect. At the same time, it's not as if with that, we're devoid of any virtue whatsoever. 191 00:20:35,310 --> 00:20:37,980 Where do you want to say that that's lost? The View is another question, 192 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,370 but the point of what I'm saying here is that the repudiation of virtue rich social formations did not commit 193 00:20:44,370 --> 00:20:48,690 once the principle of virtue passed me because there's at least one other way of assuming the virtue. 194 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:49,570 So, I mean, 195 00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:57,210 I'm suggesting that it is a good idea to there are reasons for wanting to avoid virtue which forms the social arrangements of social institutions, 196 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:02,250 but that doesn't necessarily permit you to the principle of virtue parsimony. 197 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:16,530 All right. Now, one one of the grounds that leads people towards virtue parsimony is the successes of the profit motive and the market. 198 00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:23,100 And people see that as evidence that the principle of virtue of parsimony. I want to suggest that that remains an open question. 199 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,880 Arguments for the virtue of parsimony clearly connected to a view about the benefits of market prices, 200 00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:36,890 all about how the realised markets are set to work because they harness self-interest through the incentives of the pursuit of profit provides. 201 00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:45,050 Now let's just assume, I mean, you know, again you might want to disagree with that, but that the invisible hand mechanism works. 202 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:49,100 Let's just say that the invisible hand does what that its pursuit of profit generates social 203 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:52,970 benefits that are not necessarily intended by any of the agents who bring them about. 204 00:21:53,000 --> 00:22:00,890 I mean, that's a sort of the paradox of the invisible hand that people pursuing certain kinds of goals have outcomes that they didn't intend. 205 00:22:02,060 --> 00:22:07,100 But one of the questions is whether the profit motive excludes moral. So the question like this was more content. 206 00:22:09,180 --> 00:22:13,080 And for me, I think part of the problem here is a conflation of self-interest and selfishness. 207 00:22:14,430 --> 00:22:20,490 The mere fact that off pursue my own interests does not make me selfish, nor does it mean that I cannot respect the interests of others in doing so. 208 00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:27,899 There is a tendency to want to say that the fact that you are pursuing some kind of self-interested project means 209 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:34,080 that there's no moral content or no other regarding content whatsoever in your deliberations or in your actions. 210 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:45,600 So in a way, what I'm doing is just reiterating Bishop Butler in the lectures of the sermons at Rawls Cathedral. 211 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:52,770 Are you concerned that our own interests or happiness and a reasonable endeavour to secure and promote it is a virtue and the contrary behaviour, 212 00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:59,070 faulty, inviolable sense of the commons where for reflection we approve of the first thing, condemn the other conduct both in their selves and others. 213 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Now one of the things that Butler was on about was not conflating or not confusing self-interest and selfishness. 214 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,970 And I think if we take those lessons into our understanding, the profit motive. 215 00:23:16,830 --> 00:23:20,880 I think we tend to talk about the profit motive, but I think it's better to talk about profit motives, 216 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:25,740 but in the plural, because there are different ways that we might pursue profit. 217 00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:34,800 Some of them which, you know, if we look at the motivation structure, some of them will include other regarding content and some of them don't. 218 00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:42,630 So I can imagine somebody who likes been pursuing profit by itself does not make one selfish in the world at all regarding motives. 219 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,780 I think that would be to endorse an ever so only conception. 220 00:23:45,780 --> 00:23:49,379 The profit motive that the profit motive is a singular motive. 221 00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:52,710 And you can't distinguish between different ways in which some of the secret of profit. 222 00:23:53,350 --> 00:24:00,180 Alright, so what I'm to suggest to you, and this is a long way round, but I'm going to distinguish between different forms of the profit motive. 223 00:24:00,780 --> 00:24:03,990 So you might pursue profit for its own sake without any moral side constraints. 224 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,710 So we use the notion of goals inside constraints that comes from full selection. 225 00:24:08,220 --> 00:24:10,530 We can actually draw distinctions between kinds of profit motive. 226 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:21,180 This term look at path I kind of myself and Tony Lynch come up with this idea in your line at the time is to try to get it into the idea we fail. 227 00:24:21,390 --> 00:24:24,600 But I noticed it's in a word, a day to get that far. 228 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,950 Alright. One might pursue otherwise why not pursue it as a primary goal with certain moral law constraints on one's actions. 229 00:24:31,950 --> 00:24:35,880 And that's a for. Well so what's the point of this? I'm saying there's different kinds of profit motives. 230 00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:42,720 I want to suggest as an open, empirical question as to whether the benefits of Smith's invisible hand can be 231 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,640 sheeted home to pure self-interest or to a morally constrained relative of the. 232 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:50,560 All right. 233 00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:59,130 So is it the case that the benefits of the invisible hand and this is the main reason people are driven towards the principle of virtue, parsimony? 234 00:24:59,620 --> 00:25:05,700 Is it the case of the invisible hand works on profit motives that have no moral side constraints? 235 00:25:05,710 --> 00:25:11,110 Or is it one that operates on the farming profit motive to do that moral side constraints? 236 00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:15,270 And if it's the latter than the principle virtue of passing is false. 237 00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:20,860 For in such circumstances, choosing the system which requires less virtue would lead us towards less material benefits. 238 00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:24,250 Those aside, I mean, I think that remains an open question. 239 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:34,120 So that's the first thing, I guess. I mean, there's a sort of trying to undermine the epistemic grounds that that's an argument against virtue. 240 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:35,610 Parsimony is just saying, well, 241 00:25:35,650 --> 00:25:47,290 it remains an open question whether or not the invisible hand comes from a kind of relatively virtue free pursuit of profit, 242 00:25:47,290 --> 00:25:53,950 or whether it comes from a profit motive, sort of constrained by certain sorts of moral considerations. 243 00:25:54,350 --> 00:25:59,710 Okay. There's another argument that people often give, and this is about promotion of virtuous citizens. 244 00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:07,060 I'm going to fight that from Aristotle. Now, this is sort of heading back to the virtue rich, 245 00:26:07,630 --> 00:26:13,180 but there's a long tradition in political philosophy of defending the idea that virtue should be encouraged or fostered. 246 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:20,590 So if you think about our story, he had this idea, but first laws and presumably you can include this in the purpose of, 247 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:29,170 you know, institutional, but more generally so law givers make the citizens good by inculcating habits in them. 248 00:26:29,530 --> 00:26:34,660 And this is the aim of every law giver. If he does not succeed in doing that, his legislation is a failure. 249 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:37,720 It is in this that a good constitution differs from a bad one. 250 00:26:38,740 --> 00:26:48,370 Well, now a common argument in favour of virtue fostering action is that there are significant benefits in time for the citizens themselves, 251 00:26:48,370 --> 00:26:51,400 sort of involvement in institutions that require virtuous behaviour. 252 00:26:52,840 --> 00:27:01,810 So one is that maybe society is better so that the citizens themselves benefit from being involved in such 253 00:27:01,930 --> 00:27:09,190 activity through participation in such institutions that provide active opportunities for the exercise of virtue. 254 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,300 And this is dissolving itself since the days of the formation of virtuous citizens. 255 00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:21,100 And the arguments analogous to the claims by the supposed long dead writers like Ernest Fife and principles of social and political theory, 256 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,900 that democracy is valuable in itself the opportunities it provides for individual development. 257 00:27:26,620 --> 00:27:29,859 Is that kind of argument? That's not just the outcome that matters, 258 00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:34,630 but it's the opportunities provided for people to be involved in democracy or in the 259 00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:40,750 sometimes virtuous institution and the effects it has upon the way that they are, 260 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:49,270 I think, right now. But I think so if we stop here, we think about how there's difficulties with this. 261 00:27:49,870 --> 00:27:53,660 As we already know, there are strong grounds for questioning the viability of the church. 262 00:27:53,680 --> 00:28:00,940 Political institutions and political history would seem to indicate that when such institutions require requires besides, 263 00:28:02,020 --> 00:28:11,320 disaster often follows shortly thereafter. So you might think all this is just heading back to where we were before with the voting rights. 264 00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:16,330 However, the notion of such problems is not to endorse the idea of virtue personally. 265 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,090 But there's at least one other relevant process to say before political interventionism. 266 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:28,629 According to the profession's model, the danger of forms of political law if the required operation by CITES can be understood 267 00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:33,250 in terms of our proclivity for partiality in making and applying in moral judgements, 268 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,560 rather than at complete lack of any moral sense. 269 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:44,440 The lessons of political history of virtue rich institutions can be accommodated within a model that does not treat morality is building systems. 270 00:28:46,090 --> 00:28:53,860 So. But at this point, I mean, I'd love to have NOI for a reason. 271 00:28:53,860 --> 00:29:06,960 Preferred interfaces models that the model that you possibly say look to the such of the route to us because all of those you know sort of. 272 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,040 What I was going to put forward was a construct and I'm heading towards India. 273 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,290 So that's a constraint principal of fostering virtue. 274 00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:21,900 I mean, I actually think there's something to this, but I wanted to give a more moderate version of it. 275 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:27,120 So this is so these two arguments I'm running against, against the two parsimony. 276 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,859 The first one is to simply look, 277 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:38,400 it's not clear that you need to get rid of virtuous or virtuous content in order to get the benefits, the invisible hand. 278 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,910 And the second one is that there may well be some virtue or benefit to be, you know, 279 00:29:45,930 --> 00:29:50,430 something laudable, something desirable about having institutions which foster virtue. 280 00:29:51,030 --> 00:29:57,660 So the way of phrase this is if we have to choose between two forms of organisation that we have good reason to believe equally efficacious, 281 00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:02,190 and we should choose the one which is more likely to foster virtue. All right, so let's throw. 282 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,860 Maybe it's a work of principle that if you had two different. Once a social institution. 283 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,110 And the people who like to produce, you know, the benefits of your life. 284 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,760 And I really want you to know that. They're equally clearly efficacious. 285 00:30:19,790 --> 00:30:24,250 Then the prince, the institution chooses the one which is more likely to foster virtue. 286 00:30:24,370 --> 00:30:32,740 The idea there is that all other things being equal is a good thing to have institutions that foster other regarding capacities. 287 00:30:33,490 --> 00:30:38,900 So in a way, that's getting back to what Hirschman was worried. Right. 288 00:30:38,970 --> 00:30:48,720 So just by way of finishing up, I've got a little parable of the relative of mind with it must be said, 289 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:56,100 a particularly dim view of human nature recently expressed dismay at a report that suggested that more people are killed in the passenger's seat. 290 00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,070 In the driver's seat. Now, I'm just assuming that's true. 291 00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:07,230 His suggested explanation was the drivers typically act to protect themselves before the passengers and swerve away from any looming danger, 292 00:31:07,650 --> 00:31:12,330 thus exposing the passenger side saw the car. And maybe that's not the explanation, but I'm open to that as well. 293 00:31:12,330 --> 00:31:17,040 All right. But my relative interpreted this as a sign of the essential wickedness of humans. 294 00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:23,500 Instead of sacrificing ourselves and acting as a saint, would we wilfully size solar cells at the expense of others? 295 00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:31,050 Are we signs? Well, I'll be nice. My relative concluded that the statistics for girls to be nice. 296 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,730 I think there's another interpretation that regards this as a sign of a partiality rather than a wickedness. 297 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:43,510 We naturally react to save ourselves. This does not reveal malicious intent towards our fellow human beings. 298 00:31:44,020 --> 00:31:49,870 Our instinct is to self-preservation, not harm to others. The harm to passengers is unintentional on this account. 299 00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:53,720 In the same way mutatis mutandis. 300 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:59,930 We should not view the dangers and failures of virtual institutions as grounds for endorsing the principle of virtue parsimony. 301 00:32:00,770 --> 00:32:06,920 When institutions fail, it may occasionally be that this is because the moral bar has been set too high for ordinary human beings, 302 00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:11,750 but more likely will be that the institution has allowed the distortions of partiality to dominate. 303 00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:17,040 Such partiality is not, as the Carr case shows, a manifestation of bias. 304 00:32:17,550 --> 00:32:23,520 It is simply understandably a fact about how human beings work and because they tend to work that way, 305 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,280 that we need political institutions and ones that are so arranged as to minimise the effects of such partiality. 306 00:32:31,020 --> 00:32:36,210 When one turns the second common justification of virtue parsimony, the appeal to the benefits of the market provides. 307 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,710 We find that it is indeterminate whether those benefits are a result of selfish bastardry 308 00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:45,300 or of that ordinary human partiality that seizes favour ourselves and our interests. 309 00:32:45,690 --> 00:32:50,850 It does not rule out other ongoing concerns. Those who, like my cynical relative, 310 00:32:51,210 --> 00:32:55,830 take the fact that we're not always good and certainly hardly ever as good as we could be if we were 311 00:32:55,830 --> 00:33:01,709 touched by saintliness to mean that we should proceed on the assumption that we are simply nodes and so on, 312 00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:06,540 to the conclusion that the institutions of a good society attain perfection when they eliminate any need 313 00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:11,369 for the inputs of individual virtue would seem to be T.S. Eliot's target in the poem called The Rock, 314 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:12,900 which is going on and on. 315 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:19,170 They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within by dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good. 316 00:33:20,430 --> 00:33:26,400 The truth is that the darkness within is not our irremediable evil, but our eminently human propensity for partiality. 317 00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:32,880 Dealing with this does not require perfect institutions, but it does require intelligent ones. 318 00:33:33,870 --> 00:33:37,530 That intelligence will not deny our virtues or assert our business. 319 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,970 If we it will take us as we are and is left locked in. 320 00:33:42,780 --> 00:33:46,860 Arguably, in the second treatise will seek to harness our intelligence and our virtues 321 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,300 so we may have more justice in the world than would otherwise be the case. Okay. 322 00:33:51,550 --> 00:33:58,370 Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. 323 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:02,940 We have time for questions. We are recording the questions. 324 00:34:04,010 --> 00:34:09,520 So if you get a few, as you know as well, so you and we will podcast. 325 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,070 If you don't want your questions to be recorded, then. 326 00:34:13,730 --> 00:34:20,840 Well, either we think what you want to ask or come see me afterwards and we will endeavour to delete the question. 327 00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:23,720 So questions. Yes. Thanks very much. 328 00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:30,820 Having worked a bit on the politics of Australia to try to get you the message that would impose the crisis on me. 329 00:34:31,180 --> 00:34:35,750 Okay. What's that? Okay. 330 00:34:36,590 --> 00:34:49,399 I just very interested in why you think it's difficult to talk about specific virtues like self-control, 331 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:55,530 empathy or courage, generosity for patients in. 332 00:35:00,380 --> 00:35:05,150 Why do I think it's one of the things that do not actually talk about actual virtues? 333 00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:13,630 Yeah, that's a good question. Look, I don't I don't think it's a problem in myself. 334 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,410 I don't think that the problem with talking about those, I was more just, you know, abstract level. 335 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:25,340 I don't know how to develop a more particular type of, you know, particular, specific virtues if you wanted to. 336 00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:29,260 I was just more just picking up on this, you know, debate. 337 00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:32,719 And that's the way they talk about I mean, it's what Brennan calls, you know, virtue personally. 338 00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:34,340 And the idea is that there aren't any. 339 00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:41,060 Regardless whether it's, you know, self-control, temperance, you know, generosity or whatever that all of those are missing. 340 00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:46,040 So but when you have very different institutions, depending on which letter to choose. 341 00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:52,690 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very specific local context to now look I think that's right. 342 00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:56,360 I mean, I mean, this is a level of abstraction. 343 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,929 I mean, presumably there's some a wide variety of different kinds of institutions, 344 00:35:59,930 --> 00:36:04,569 if you will, of fostering these virtues as opposed to close proximity. Yeah, that's one problem. 345 00:36:04,570 --> 00:36:10,370 Mills is more generally trying to make space for the idea of virtues than, you know, 346 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:19,580 but that is going to end up having very different kinds of ways of I mean, as you say, that the institutions that form will be very different. 347 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,850 Well, we don't seem to be able to use you already saying that. 348 00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:30,530 But look, it is to be honest with God, I'm not opposed to doing that, but it would be much more defined by analysis and also as a service, 349 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:37,580 sort of like a general case for defending some kind of other guy who, you know, concern the common good. 350 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:47,480 Yes. Okay. I Brent, when I reflect upon your large question you were addressing, 351 00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:57,110 what came to mind was there might be a non ethical input that would be worth considering. 352 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,910 So in other words, the answer to your question may not be answered by a moral assumption, 353 00:37:02,930 --> 00:37:17,750 or it may be answered by individuals or groups aversion to risk because the risk averse person may well want. 354 00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:31,220 I want virtue parsimony, because that's going to be a less risky option than requiring everyone always to be good. 355 00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:40,580 So the less risk averse you are, the more comfortable you are with actually packing a lot of expectations into one's morality. 356 00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:47,320 So it's really just a comment to suggest that there may be no moral inputs that are worth considering when you look at it. 357 00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:53,299 Well, if one of things but it's not clear what humans saying, you know, in human reasoning more closely. 358 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:58,970 But there's two interpretations looking into saying one is that, you know, very little virtue. 359 00:38:00,110 --> 00:38:06,440 Another is just as a general policy and your risk averse interpretation as a general policy, 360 00:38:06,890 --> 00:38:12,230 we're probably better off in any situation assuming less virtue and more know now. 361 00:38:12,380 --> 00:38:15,440 But it's not exactly getting what you want. It's very cautious. 362 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,190 It's just that you're saying we're better off. 363 00:38:20,210 --> 00:38:26,960 But that's actually not quite right. You're better off if, depending on where you are in the risk averse spectrum. 364 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:33,080 If you're actually very risk averse, then you're then you get to it's going to appear to you as if it's some sort of moral 365 00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:38,710 judgement that all is better for us or normative judgement for us to be better, 366 00:38:39,110 --> 00:38:44,780 that we'd be better off at that spectrum. You might interpret that retrospectively as a moral judgement or normative judgement. 367 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:50,800 It's not a moral normally judgement at all. It's actually just coming straight out of your preferences because you're risk averse. 368 00:38:51,020 --> 00:38:57,370 Yeah, if it's like that, you know, if we go back to this little this, I mean all sort of built into it, 369 00:38:57,650 --> 00:39:03,830 equally efficacious and presumably therefore among the things that will be effective, equally, the risk is not going to be different. 370 00:39:04,340 --> 00:39:06,919 So there's no reason if you're risk averse to choose one over the other. 371 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:14,239 In that case, we get into I mean, if I can build that into it and the presumed third party classifications also, 372 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:18,770 no, there's no greater risk with all these two possible institutional sets. 373 00:39:19,460 --> 00:39:25,960 I mean, surely it's surely there is a difference in risk and that is the ones that require more virtues are riskier, 374 00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:30,830 though the ones that are worthwhile, they are. You have noticed. Okay, let's just assume that a way. 375 00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:39,470 Right. In that case let me conclude my about to people that in as well but in those cases then 376 00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:45,260 is there any reason not to choose one requires more virtue if you're not risk averse. 377 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,300 What I just said. Well, there's no there's no impediment to you going with you your lot. 378 00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:57,980 But what I'm saying is a confound that may be worth considering in that if you're risk averse, you know, then you. 379 00:39:58,270 --> 00:40:00,480 There's something very. Also getting in the way of your choosing. 380 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,110 Well, let's just take this out a little bit, because, I mean, it is interesting, I think. And that's important. 381 00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:10,410 What what's the what do you risk averse about the idea that people would be less 382 00:40:10,410 --> 00:40:16,350 purchased and your system requires this right and therefore the system will fall over? 383 00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:20,340 Know, the risk of the system falling over is a higher risk that you're willing to entertain. 384 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,239 Yeah. So you actually move your expectations? I think there's complications. 385 00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:28,230 I mean, one of the things here is the extent to which you build into your system. 386 00:40:29,530 --> 00:40:40,310 Yeah, I mean I mean, for example, one of the extent was built into the system methods for preventing, you know, you know, 387 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:49,110 being part of the system they'll drum pushing here is that, you know, we are passive, but we are capable of better than we often exhibit. 388 00:40:49,110 --> 00:40:55,169 So whether or not that places us in greater risk by relying on that, it just doesn't. 389 00:40:55,170 --> 00:40:56,180 That's what you think it is. 390 00:40:56,190 --> 00:41:04,200 Yeah, well, I mean, that might be something that you build into it, but not if you if you want to keep the account purely normative. 391 00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:12,570 Yeah. I simply reflected when I reflected on I thought, oh, maybe there's something that's just completely nobody that would need to be taken into it. 392 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,310 I think one of things is whether or not it is requiring virtue, in fostering virtue and what these differences are. 393 00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:24,690 And in a way, you know, is is this the story? You're saying that it's risky because this one requires as much virtue on this one. 394 00:41:24,690 --> 00:41:26,520 Of course. That that's right. Yeah. Yeah. 395 00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:35,160 I mean the principle and the thing is what the how much you could also talk about the gist of the story so is a through fostering so 396 00:41:35,550 --> 00:41:43,220 there's little versions you know whether or not whether the virtue of fostering these also have different levels of virtue requiring them. 397 00:41:43,290 --> 00:41:50,969 I said, you know, you could have a system in which it might foster virtue business women as any less, among other things, for example, 398 00:41:50,970 --> 00:41:56,820 acquisition by focussed members any less in terms of or more in terms of what's required from citizens, 399 00:41:57,060 --> 00:41:59,610 you know, in the sense that if it doesn't, you don't get that virtue we put you over. 400 00:41:59,650 --> 00:42:03,270 I mean, if you think it's I'm doing a lot of as a token project extreme version of this. 401 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:08,100 If everybody doesn't act towards the common good then you know, and hopeless. 402 00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:14,520 And a lot of times there's no institutional mechanisms for responding in order to, you know, if you leave, you move. 403 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:19,780 I'm in another you know, this is rather crude or something. 404 00:42:19,790 --> 00:42:25,110 You could fight great. But to think about leaders and and general citizens and so on, 405 00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:29,280 if you don't have make them against systems that assume that the leaders themselves that would 406 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,219 benefit from some sort of useful mechanisms for constraining behaviour of those in charge. 407 00:42:35,220 --> 00:42:41,430 And that's usually part of the point of lock as well. I mean I guess I'd like you to think that between fostering and requiring, 408 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:46,889 but another phrase that comes to mind is simply hope for the best plan for the 409 00:42:46,890 --> 00:42:50,960 worst seems to capture that distinction that you're trying to get to that. 410 00:42:51,090 --> 00:42:54,030 I mean, the second part is, I mean, this this is a sort of at on the end, 411 00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:59,350 the thing I wanted to do was just I mean, this is sort of a bit of a hopefulness at the end of the initial. 412 00:42:59,380 --> 00:43:02,910 What I want to do is just saying that it's an open question whether or not the benefits we get. 413 00:43:03,450 --> 00:43:13,350 But there's two lines. I had one of them, whether or not the benefit come from, you know, people think this or whether there's some role in virtue. 414 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:19,319 And then it's also there's also debates now about maybe it's risky having societies that people don't work, don't cross the verge. 415 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,550 I mean, you know something? All right. If we can learn that that requirement of trust, 416 00:43:23,580 --> 00:43:30,670 we have societies that live and support systems of them on the assumption that, you know, but it seems to undermine trust. 417 00:43:30,670 --> 00:43:37,050 Then then what will the negative consequences of them over here? 418 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:49,590 And so it seems that whether you're a name or someone who's regarding their own self-interest but is, 419 00:43:49,590 --> 00:43:56,850 you know, also morally good, you come to the same conclusion that you should have systems that foster. 420 00:43:57,740 --> 00:44:02,379 Thank you. What could I do based on? 421 00:44:02,380 --> 00:44:12,630 Based on this, it seems that. You come to the same conclusion whether you think people are intrinsically okay or not. 422 00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:18,799 And I wonder if if if my interpretation of that is correct or whether you think that if people are nice, 423 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:25,100 then that system has to somehow be more stringent and you have to have a lot more safeguards and a lot more requirements. 424 00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:30,380 I mean, what you coming from picking on there? Is this this this principle here is not okay. 425 00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:39,890 And let's just assume with it or not, with a few systems and and these systems cause verification. 426 00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:45,980 So it's under production of benefits then I'm not really saying whether or not people know so. 427 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:52,190 And in that case, you want to pick the one that crosses virtually. 428 00:44:52,430 --> 00:44:58,009 Fostering virtue doesn't necessarily mean we don't have, you know, regulations for prevention of bias. 429 00:44:58,010 --> 00:45:02,629 And then part of this is, you know, this thing about possibilities of acknowledging and simply locking. 430 00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:07,060 In that sense, that is an acknowledgement of people's propensity to look after themselves. 431 00:45:07,090 --> 00:45:12,209 We didn't have regulations in place that was just more a kind of, you know, principle of reasoning. 432 00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:17,750 But if this on making claims of human lives as life, but if we look to such institutions, 433 00:45:18,590 --> 00:45:22,630 institutional possibilities and we don't know with regard to what people know. 434 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:30,049 So, I mean, it's a good question asking whether or not this was a science if either, you know, I think we have qualifications and let's do like I. 435 00:45:30,050 --> 00:45:38,420 I just think that just sort of some of my argument put more people are not pretty I mean this ludicrous this was back there. 436 00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:45,290 Yeah I was curious about whether you personally I guess to give an indication 437 00:45:45,290 --> 00:45:48,499 throughout the kind of work parliament would end up notably of getting rid of, 438 00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:50,570 you know, retirement, but of course, 439 00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:57,360 which in the end we're losing this really falsified number to approximately that we can say there are certain virtues that are, 440 00:45:57,410 --> 00:46:00,709 you know what, they end up being really great for some benefits. There's a few. 441 00:46:00,710 --> 00:46:05,270 So maybe honesty will be there, maybe, you know, some sort of basic side operation will be there. 442 00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:09,440 And yeah, that is going to be a good reason to need these things to get a prosperous society. 443 00:46:09,650 --> 00:46:17,490 And those are virtuous and as a sort of provision with virtually everything we want to, you know, to build those in, we want to acquire on on one. 444 00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:21,200 Well, and that that's going to be good for society also. It's good for virtue. That's great. 445 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,580 And then you can so you can build in whatever virtues there are that kind of our profit making, 446 00:46:25,580 --> 00:46:28,430 so to speak, and then exclude the other thing of good enough sense, 447 00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:35,990 exclude, you know, certain, certain forms of justice, and then you can build in your objection and still retain the basic virtue. 448 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,549 Parsimony is your idea of something of this virtue, minimum surrounding virtue past months, 449 00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:45,970 because presumably like this is like you go to society and you say these which is it a requirement of trust and something else. 450 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,580 And I'm I say to you, here's another society without those there. 451 00:46:49,580 --> 00:46:57,670 So I presume, you know, with approach with that as if you're going to say to me, choose, you can presume the one that still has some virtues in it. 452 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,160 So you're talking about ultimate virtue minimum rather than, I guess virtue minimalism. 453 00:47:01,220 --> 00:47:04,580 Yeah, that's right. That's what the basic thrust of. 454 00:47:04,730 --> 00:47:07,850 Yeah. Would be is that we know as few virtues as is as. 455 00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:11,719 Yeah. And you might only if you make some of your virtues. Yeah, that's right. 456 00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:17,510 I mean this is because I think once again, you know, there is a lot more to say. 457 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:18,470 I mean, here's the thing. 458 00:47:18,830 --> 00:47:27,290 Same approach is just assuming entirely absent and being virtually plus, which is just, you know, relative to the right to society. 459 00:47:27,770 --> 00:47:35,180 But if two systems actually both are portrayed and also virtues, both of those opposing the systems, you know, the one requires flexibility. 460 00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:41,690 And I consider this sort of conceptual geography to you in thinking about different ways of cutting it out. 461 00:47:41,700 --> 00:47:49,759 You know, I think you have to minimalist by the sound of it, but, you know, you've got some threshold of, you know, basic floor of purchase. 462 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,790 But beyond that, you know, you have to work together. 463 00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:56,929 So I think there's a lot more different ways we've cut off positions here. Probably that that make sense. 464 00:47:56,930 --> 00:48:09,739 I don't know if there's any question, but, you know, it's you know, here comes the burdens of this conflict, 465 00:48:09,740 --> 00:48:16,100 the making of the conflict between with a liberalism, communitarianism, and I can only chance. 466 00:48:16,310 --> 00:48:25,300 I think we're making great progress. Look at the virtue of this this notion of of of a small community, something that we were struggling with. 467 00:48:25,990 --> 00:48:34,730 And I think it's only and that's a and it can happen only in small communities. 468 00:48:35,180 --> 00:48:38,660 And therefore, that's a confirmation of one another. 469 00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:52,220 It's possible that the sharing of information between other persons could actually make the society more virtuous, 470 00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:56,860 because everybody knows that of the other people of interest. And therefore there will. 471 00:48:58,710 --> 00:49:03,720 There will need more more rich people, more business in general. 472 00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:09,270 The let's see, is kind of a disadvantage, the disadvantage of scale. 473 00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:12,900 And to say that in larger countries, 474 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:26,580 communities won't be able to go to like this venture because of the misinformation and its local communities would like this look like this, 475 00:49:26,790 --> 00:49:32,680 which is of virtue. Because of this, they can be less risk. 476 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,830 But if you make in a certain time. But this is bigger than most of the part of the. 477 00:49:39,630 --> 00:49:46,440 So was how do you but are you making the historical climate of societies have gotten bigger you know, 478 00:49:46,650 --> 00:49:52,230 lot larger than the ones that can't rely on virtue in the way that they might have in the smaller communities. 479 00:49:53,080 --> 00:50:00,800 And that's because you might actually see some of these people like, you know, SMITH And and humans only responding to societies. 480 00:50:00,990 --> 00:50:06,870 And as they get larger and let's suppose the role of markets for money for this. 481 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:13,140 So it wasn't something you wanted to not look like the thing here. 482 00:50:13,890 --> 00:50:17,280 So it seems like in the jury you argue for her virtue personally. 483 00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:26,280 Be more effective. If so, can you talk about some examples where you might see two forms of organisation that 484 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,799 would be equally effective but require different levels of virtue or foster development? 485 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:36,030 The virtue in whether those types of situations are very. 486 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:42,680 Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, one, you know. I mean, like, it's not the whole society. 487 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:48,770 But think about Richard witnesses who could give relationship talks about blood donation and so. 488 00:50:50,020 --> 00:50:53,350 Obviously he's not making his claim in the middle of it. 489 00:50:53,590 --> 00:51:02,590 But, you know, the book itself, the book some might now become at 1971, and it was about blood sales in the US and in Britain. 490 00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:07,299 And I mean, there's a lot of arguments and people talk about commodification of my photos and discuss 491 00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:13,800 a lot because one of the things he says is that blood done was in my time blood donation, 492 00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:19,720 because it's one of the few opportunities you have in large scale societies like ours for anonymous altruism. 493 00:51:20,290 --> 00:51:27,550 Right. But the scientific question, there's another part of the book which is he gives an economic analysis and tries to show that, 494 00:51:28,990 --> 00:51:37,210 you know, an economist, I don't know. But he claims that the actual British system of having donations paid is is more efficient. 495 00:51:38,590 --> 00:51:42,340 Okay. And then he gets I mean, what I think I mean, it's only because, you know, 496 00:51:42,340 --> 00:51:50,350 but then you get the bonus of the fact that this is more you know, it's more efficacious, it's more efficient economically. 497 00:51:50,350 --> 00:51:53,820 And then you get a bonus that people have an opportunity to do something they don't do, 498 00:51:53,830 --> 00:52:02,170 which is there's going to be virtue fostering in the sense that it is an opportunity people have to, you know, do something good for other people. 499 00:52:02,980 --> 00:52:06,800 And yes, you have some who are. And what are those? 500 00:52:07,290 --> 00:52:13,889 Yeah. Okay. I mean, they're they're going to be, quote unquote, middle sized. But let me since just finally sort of let you know, but as an example. 501 00:52:13,890 --> 00:52:17,190 So I mean, I mean, because this is a group, it's all very abstract. 502 00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:24,390 But these debates really, I mean, the verge passing because it's really all about markets as opposed to other forms of arrangement, you know? 503 00:52:24,540 --> 00:52:32,160 I mean, that's that's what's motivating a lot of it is that you and I have a question about the term virtue, 504 00:52:32,190 --> 00:52:36,480 because, of course, you know, if you're free to define it any way you want to do so in the beginning. 505 00:52:36,490 --> 00:52:40,860 But still, I get the impression from the discussion also that we are actually on this side. 506 00:52:41,490 --> 00:52:48,720 Right. Right. By the term of if you speak of different virtues and the different we're speaking of beneficiaries, in all honesty. 507 00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:54,870 And actually all you mean is like how much meat you give to your interest as opposed to the interest of others. 508 00:52:54,970 --> 00:52:59,970 Mm hmm. So I thought, look, I mean, I think. Yeah, Morgan said that, and I was thinking about this before. 509 00:53:00,150 --> 00:53:04,500 No, I really don't think that's the phrase in the title of good intentions. 510 00:53:04,500 --> 00:53:06,030 The way it's going to be motivated by. 511 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:13,320 That's particularly how much you might have overcome, given how much you are motivated by the desire to help others. 512 00:53:13,330 --> 00:53:22,110 And that's I mean, in the written version of this, of course, you know, you specify a little bit more, but it does connect up with those other. 513 00:53:22,110 --> 00:53:28,370 And when your question is that there's a there's a danger of equivocation across a variety of different 514 00:53:28,380 --> 00:53:33,420 because that's what happens and you basically see you value of human beings to be totally vicious. 515 00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:36,920 The only thing that's really relevant to say that they happen to be partially yeah, 516 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:42,780 I've given you a definition of it in the beginning, but that's all it is to be vicious because virtue is just to be other regarding. 517 00:53:42,780 --> 00:53:46,140 And so more of everything actually moving towards place. 518 00:53:47,820 --> 00:53:51,270 Yeah. Like having a totally separate law. But we can. But we can. 519 00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:56,670 I mean, to what extent are we supposed to talk about that degrees of the extent to which we are motivated by 520 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:02,700 other regarding concerns of what does it mean and you can still get into it with a populist account. 521 00:54:03,810 --> 00:54:06,810 I mean, if you want to say you're moving towards Vice, but that doesn't make a difference. 522 00:54:06,810 --> 00:54:11,969 I mean, on a spectrum and I'm trying to point to sort of a common history. 523 00:54:11,970 --> 00:54:21,870 Can I say something? I mean, I, I thought you made something much stronger about virtue you made actually through the character traits and. 524 00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,820 No, that's one. Yeah. Kind of. If you didn't, I think, I think you should because you could imagine that. 525 00:54:27,660 --> 00:54:36,360 I mean some parsimonious view of what's needed in a way of society might it might exactly involve certain character traits. 526 00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:42,120 You might think that look, even if people are other regarding and so forth, it's no good, you know, honest. 527 00:54:42,210 --> 00:54:47,610 And I've got to have a sort of yeah. An enduring disposition to be honest with something like that. 528 00:54:48,180 --> 00:54:53,190 So at least some versions of virtue parsimony going to require full blown character traits, 529 00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:58,050 not just from attitudes to people or to the society as a whole. 530 00:54:58,140 --> 00:55:03,150 I mean, I also I'd like a minimal so it was just about prior attitudes towards and but interesting the point you pick 531 00:55:03,150 --> 00:55:09,550 up there I'm like arrow when talking about that sort of trust which is obviously much thicker conception. 532 00:55:09,570 --> 00:55:17,129 But yeah, I mean from my consciousness we don't need another term, but that's certainly what the term started. 533 00:55:17,130 --> 00:55:22,440 I mean, and that's what they mean. Inverted made is that the extent to which were motivated by I mean, 534 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:27,749 he's not talking about like Rosalind versus virtue in that sense or, you know, Philip a foot or something. 535 00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:32,370 When you talk about virtue, meaning, you know, specific or much character traits, 536 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:40,499 what do you what they're talking about is the extent to which were motivated by it's better motivations rather than, you know, habits of action. 537 00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:44,309 So I mean, really point is under some versions of that phrase. 538 00:55:44,310 --> 00:55:47,549 Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Okay, that's fine. 539 00:55:47,550 --> 00:55:55,320 Yeah I preach Christianity and so I would go came down though uses actually the levers 540 00:55:55,710 --> 00:56:00,210 that you are the salt of the earth salt of the earth mean you have conscience, 541 00:56:00,210 --> 00:56:05,760 you know, and those people have conscience, you know, they have their forced to refuse. 542 00:56:06,570 --> 00:56:12,030 And those who have sought less people no conscience they you and for people. 543 00:56:12,750 --> 00:56:16,650 So in Jerusalem, most of the people don't, although they were prosperous, you know, 544 00:56:17,130 --> 00:56:22,470 but they were shameless, thoughtless, they would cheat people and had no resistance. 545 00:56:23,130 --> 00:56:29,540 Whereas in the villages and other people at work, in fact, you had more going together. 546 00:56:29,550 --> 00:56:36,720 FOSTER Unity and victims can be also made in contentment. 547 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,160 If people are contented, you have find them virtuous. 548 00:56:43,170 --> 00:56:49,059 Okay. Well, I, I mean that in a way that connects up with what I was calling a traditional conception 549 00:56:49,060 --> 00:56:52,800 or a traditional conception of political life is how do we get a good society? 550 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:53,700 We have good people. 551 00:56:53,880 --> 00:57:00,570 And that's what's interesting about Mandeville, because I think it's counterintuitive given that background, not just in the Christian tradition, 552 00:57:00,570 --> 00:57:05,640 but I think most of religious traditions would say that in order to, you know, in society, we want to be good. 553 00:57:06,310 --> 00:57:11,370 A point of pride to try to make yourself a better person is that you live in a better society. 554 00:57:11,370 --> 00:57:13,650 So yeah, 555 00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:25,799 I to think what you're saying is the traditional Christian view so as to be a communist went to South India and over there people have good pictures, 556 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:30,270 you know, in foster book and they were quite a good respect. 557 00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:34,440 But I mean, I suppose the question Manuel would say is, do they make a lot of money? 558 00:57:35,050 --> 00:57:41,490 Right. Any further questions? 559 00:57:42,570 --> 00:57:49,080 I suggested an unknown number to other people in the last week, 560 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:58,870 but I'm also reminded of the distinction between negative for freedom and positive freedom, and I wondered if that might be another interesting angle. 561 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,210 Influence this obviously being naughty. 562 00:58:01,380 --> 00:58:09,390 Yeah, if you have a preference or if you think foundationally that somehow positive freedom is required in a way, 563 00:58:10,590 --> 00:58:17,370 then I wonder if that might tilt the balance in your argument. 564 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,970 Also, I don't think it's anything like Oberlin, but yeah. 565 00:58:22,420 --> 00:58:26,910 Yeah, okay. So I'm sort of thinking so I mean, just my Maslow. 566 00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:36,690 So, so if you're if you're a fan of negative freedom or if you like a sort of million when it comes to all that I have to do is stay out of your way. 567 00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:40,230 Yeah. And that's a sort of a theme and a parsimonious sort of virtue. 568 00:58:40,590 --> 00:58:46,050 I mean, as long as. Okay, well, if you think you're, if you're a positive freedom type, 569 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:52,050 you think you don't actually have freedom until you have a whole heap of social competence. 570 00:58:52,790 --> 00:58:57,010 And in fact, we aren't free until we go. Okay. 571 00:58:57,670 --> 00:59:05,030 Yeah, I mean, probably more effective second claim that I've got here, which is in a way that's much more of a positive for emotions. 572 00:59:05,070 --> 00:59:08,130 Yeah, well, listen, sorry. It's an obligation to try to foster. That's wrong. 573 00:59:09,660 --> 00:59:14,700 I'm not sure, you know, kind of. I mean, yeah, kind of, but it's not a good thing. 574 00:59:17,860 --> 00:59:21,239 And a follow up to what his point was a previous point, 575 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:26,310 but responses on there and then there are actually forms of organisations that 576 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:31,380 contribute efficacious in for the promoting of being a bring about a good society. 577 00:59:31,650 --> 00:59:38,280 Yeah. Good results. Yeah. But it's of it because maybe I didn't get that ethical. 578 00:59:38,650 --> 00:59:42,840 All right. Yes. And all of the reasons for that. 579 00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:53,889 The first one is kind of the idea that they are more efficacious, even if they are more parsimonious in employing good. 580 00:59:53,890 --> 00:59:57,629 So because that's often you won't get all the need for that to produce. 581 00:59:57,630 --> 01:00:01,650 We thought that in ideal cases they would go it and if that is true, 582 01:00:01,650 --> 01:00:07,559 then actually if this condition ever kicks in by that antecedent of the condition and and if they are never to 583 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:16,950 say things which are really different in kind of natural requirement and I have to seem ethically efficacious, 584 01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:21,870 then it's never relevant to spend so much. 585 01:00:21,870 --> 01:00:22,919 Let me put it past me. 586 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:29,340 This is always taking it on, on separate and separating it out from the things that might motivate people towards that principle, 587 01:00:29,340 --> 01:00:35,220 which is, you know, some people claim that it you always sort of like, 588 01:00:35,460 --> 01:00:40,380 you know, bias gives rise people pursuing non self-interest these are always more benefit 589 01:00:40,380 --> 01:00:43,610 them and then you're right that's a Google client and that would not be possible. 590 01:00:43,980 --> 01:00:47,310 But I mean, part of what I was trying to do in the first section of it was to undermine the idea, 591 01:00:48,450 --> 01:00:54,210 you know, and again, you set that undermining, you know, then maybe this would follow. 592 01:00:54,540 --> 01:00:59,400 Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Adrian.