1 00:00:00,350 --> 00:00:05,700 Pinochet. I mean, who shall I'd say, damn, the Shanika Sean. 2 00:00:05,700 --> 00:00:13,350 The rakish goddamn. Near a tumour. Misapply Nando La Raza. 3 00:00:13,350 --> 00:00:17,430 Hi, my name is Dan. I am here to tell a story about beads. 4 00:00:17,430 --> 00:00:22,420 And it's nice to meet you. Amazing. Thank you, Dan. Before we talk about who we are. 5 00:00:22,420 --> 00:00:26,010 My hair. Can you explain what you just said? What was the language that you were speaking? 6 00:00:26,010 --> 00:00:31,260 That was mischief. That is the traditional language of the native nation. 7 00:00:31,260 --> 00:00:41,800 It's spoken mainly in parts of Saskatchewan, Manitoba and North Dakota, as well as if you smatterings here and there, like in Oxford currently. 8 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:48,360 Yeah, it's. And there's about a little bit less than a thousand native speakers, though, so it's a quite small language. 9 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,980 So my name's Daisy Cattle and I am the project curator on Beyond the Binary National 10 00:00:52,980 --> 00:00:58,800 Lottery Heritage funded project taking place at the Pitt Rivers at the moment. And I am lucky enough to be here at my dad. 11 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:04,410 He was one of our community creators. And we're here to talk a little bit about the material that you've been researching and 12 00:01:04,410 --> 00:01:09,150 curating for the put it exhibition and learn a little bit about your interest really, 13 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:13,320 and do the amazing work the EPA undertaking in partnership with a project. 14 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:16,350 So first of all, can you. You've introduced yourself amazingly. 15 00:01:16,350 --> 00:01:23,190 And can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and what drew you to the project and why you why you've become a community curator? 16 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:32,550 So I am a recent graduate from Oxford. I've completed my masters here and I really wanted to get involved again with a museum 17 00:01:32,550 --> 00:01:37,830 and the community curator project for the Beyond the binary was exceedingly generous, 18 00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:46,500 an amazing programme that I wanted to jump in on. I had done museum work before the National Museum and the American Indian and the Smithsonian, 19 00:01:46,500 --> 00:01:52,560 and I'm interested mainly in American Indians, specifically M80 Beadwork. 20 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,310 And the Pitt Rivers has a wonderful collection that is actually displayed. 21 00:01:57,310 --> 00:02:06,250 Joe was quite pleased to see some meaty work, mainly mittens and some bandoleer bags and some octopus bags. 22 00:02:06,250 --> 00:02:11,490 So I was very keen to see that and work with that. And before we talk a little bit more about the end, the beadwork on display in the museum. 23 00:02:11,490 --> 00:02:17,280 Can you tell me about what you've got on today? Do you mind? You've got an amazing necklace on war. 24 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,790 I have my strong, resilient indigenous shirt. It's a wonderful brand. 25 00:02:20,790 --> 00:02:26,820 And I also have one of these horsehead medallions that I've made with a multitude of beads. 26 00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:31,560 I cannot tell you how many are in the museum is actually going to get one of these. 27 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,300 I'm going to be making, I believe, a paint horse for them. 28 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:42,060 Beadwork. It's a wonderful art form. I find that it's calming. 29 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:50,520 And also some artists will say beating is medicine. It levels you it makes you a little bit more in tune with your surroundings. 30 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:56,310 And it also connects you to an art form that, you know, we are known as the far ribhi work people. 31 00:02:56,310 --> 00:03:01,040 It connects me to my ancestors. Each little bead is that little connexion sewn and looped. 32 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,180 And so that's why I enjoy doing it. Amazing. Thank you. And it's a really amazing red colour as well. 33 00:03:06,180 --> 00:03:13,560 It's really vibrant. I say, yes, the panel is done that you're creating a an item for that paper is collection at beadwork. 34 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:21,420 I'm horsehide. So that's very exciting. And I think we talk more in a minute about the other objective creating for the main main collection. 35 00:03:21,420 --> 00:03:28,650 So what have you actually been doing? So what is your what have you been doing to research and Retiro that you're writing about? 36 00:03:28,650 --> 00:03:32,190 Have you been writing BBN? I'm not recording. What can you tell about what you've been up to? 37 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:39,450 So I've been doing a lot of individual research with this specific collection item at the Pitt Rivers. 38 00:03:39,450 --> 00:03:43,990 It's known as eighteen ninety three point sixty seven point one eighty three. 39 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:49,080 Itzik session number, also known as the S black bag, also known as the Octopus. 40 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:58,260 Many guises, many names it has. And it is this bag that was probably made in the early eighteen hundreds. 41 00:03:58,260 --> 00:04:03,960 It was collected by Pitt Rivers in 1883. It was acquired by the museum. 42 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:12,180 And it is a beautiful, very large panel style octopus bag. 43 00:04:12,180 --> 00:04:20,460 It is gorgeous and it's a very pivotal object because it succinctly describes the M80 identity. 44 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:31,170 M80 people as an ethnic group are formed of two in a way heritages, heritage and lineage. 45 00:04:31,170 --> 00:04:46,890 You have the French and European fur traders that came over to do trading and set up forts and businesses with colonialism, with settler initiatives. 46 00:04:46,890 --> 00:05:00,190 And then you have this joining of that community with the original First Nations community to create this dualistic new birth of a nation, basically. 47 00:05:00,190 --> 00:05:07,840 So this bag succinctly, succinctly identifies that because you have European motifs with these BURA. 48 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:12,690 Tulips. You have European style motifs of love with the heart. 49 00:05:12,690 --> 00:05:16,710 The wolf shroud bag, the actual cloth that it's made from. 50 00:05:16,710 --> 00:05:26,740 But then you also have this indigenous flair with the prairie roses as well as these beautiful seed beads that are attached to it. 51 00:05:26,740 --> 00:05:31,460 Is the style by itself traditional? It's so we call it an octopus back. 52 00:05:31,460 --> 00:05:36,060 I'm in the collections, but I'm not sure if that's what would be known as I'm locally. 53 00:05:36,060 --> 00:05:39,690 And it's not just because it's got it's got four legs. 54 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:46,050 Right, but with two sides. Yes, I. Eight legs is where we've put a picture in the podcast I. 55 00:05:46,050 --> 00:05:50,260 But yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about the meaning of the bag. Yeah. 56 00:05:50,260 --> 00:05:56,250 So these bags have also been made in the Azores. 57 00:05:56,250 --> 00:06:01,200 Pacific Northwest cultures, a little bit different materials used. 58 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:08,430 They've also been mimicked in Inish Nabay. Bandoleer bags are quite similar, similar functions. 59 00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:12,540 You're carrying Flins, you're carrying tobacco. You're carrying ammunition. 60 00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:21,180 The maty bag specifically is usually a flat panel bag to carry ammunition unnecessarily. 61 00:06:21,180 --> 00:06:27,540 It can't hold that much, but it gets the job done for long journeys when you're either following buffalo 62 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:34,820 herds or you're out hunting and trapping and coming back from long occasions. 63 00:06:34,820 --> 00:06:38,780 So it's really peaceful, like ASAP. And it's also quite functional. So that's really interesting. 64 00:06:38,780 --> 00:06:44,390 It's, um, it's very useful, but also really beautiful. I'm wondering if could you tell me a little bit more about the meaning of 65 00:06:44,390 --> 00:06:48,600 beadwork to you personally and possibly in an almighty culture as you see it? 66 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:54,240 So matey people. We are recognisable from our beadwork, especially with foreign motifs. 67 00:06:54,240 --> 00:07:02,340 When the it's usually it's usually accepted that when the grey nuns came to sort of residential schools, 68 00:07:02,340 --> 00:07:08,040 which, depending on how you view it, is is somewhat of a sort history for indigenous people. 69 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,510 They would teach the First Nations women certain skills and one of them was needlework. 70 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:17,130 And so you had these European patterns and motifs that they would first start with. 71 00:07:17,130 --> 00:07:21,810 And then later the women would say, well, let's let's apply this to what's actually around me. 72 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:30,330 And they would do more indigenous flora and fauna and build up upon that to actually make a highly recognisable form of beadwork. 73 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:38,390 And so other nations started to view us as people who were very, very prolific with beadwork. 74 00:07:38,390 --> 00:07:42,360 And other M80 artists sometimes use quills in their works. 75 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:49,530 They use specific there's this craft called mousse stuffing and it uses moose hair. 76 00:07:49,530 --> 00:07:53,400 So that's another one. I have never done quite work and I've never done stuffing. 77 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,320 But being working was an accessible form of meat to connect with my culture. 78 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:04,350 I was a disconnected native. I knew my grandmother told me of our history when I was very young. 79 00:08:04,350 --> 00:08:09,840 I was very young. I was more interested in cartoons and drawing in my colouring book. 80 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,880 My grandmother knew the language mischief. 81 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:18,570 My dad knew it when he was younger, but he lot later lost those skills when they moved from Canada to the United States. 82 00:08:18,570 --> 00:08:27,000 I only visited our traditional territories in Winnipeg, handfuls that the year and I was young. 83 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,750 So I was separated from the land, separate from the culture, separated from the language. 84 00:08:30,750 --> 00:08:35,190 And our elders constantly tell us you need to rekindle the hearth fires of home. 85 00:08:35,190 --> 00:08:41,100 You need to make those connexions and rebuild those connexions. It's hard, but in the end it is worth it. 86 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:48,450 And so I started to do that. My language skills, if any other match, if listeners will say this, will say, oh, that is terrible. 87 00:08:48,450 --> 00:08:57,300 Yes, it is. But at least I'm trying and bead work for me was something that was so matey that I felt. 88 00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:04,590 It could be something I could grasp on to and feel comfortable with my heritage, safe, free, beat Kievan. 89 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:08,580 It's been awhile weeks for you. I didn't see you. And I would. 90 00:09:08,580 --> 00:09:09,330 Unfortunately, 91 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:16,020 some of the records that I would be able to find out about my family when my grandmother had blanks in her memory were from land scripts. 92 00:09:16,020 --> 00:09:22,260 And that was a way that the Canadian government, in a way, would try to negotiate M80 people. 93 00:09:22,260 --> 00:09:26,220 Were they were they Indians or were they white people? 94 00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:32,040 It was a very interesting way of trying to remedy that. 95 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,760 So but I would also come across these little titbits talking about how. 96 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:42,240 Oh, yes. And then this one great grandfather of mine, you know, were a beautiful beadwork vest or did this or did that. 97 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,310 And I said, well, OK, I want to incorporate that into my story. 98 00:09:45,310 --> 00:09:54,420 That's why I started do the horse heads, because I had a relative who one of the anecdotes was he cured someone of some illness and and payment. 99 00:09:54,420 --> 00:10:01,920 He was given this beautiful little black mare with a white lace on her. So I meet that horse medallion and say something to connect me to them. 100 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,820 Amazing. Say they. These family stories say survived. But I learnt for your grandmother. 101 00:10:05,820 --> 00:10:10,980 Yes, I do. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah. She's very happy that I sort of do beadwork. 102 00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:15,330 She herself is not the best sohr, but she'll frame anything that I give her. 103 00:10:15,330 --> 00:10:20,340 So that's very nice. That's like a big fan when it's as big a fan as the pit refix isn't. 104 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:29,720 I think mazing. And. 105 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:37,930 It's I I'm kind of my questions to rooma Sopo got kind of a part way through now, so I'm vigilance, twitchy about to spirit and things like that. 106 00:10:37,930 --> 00:10:41,610 Is there anything else you wanted to share about that, 107 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:50,060 the object that you were researching or the museum and anything anything you two talk about generally before we maybe move on to spare? 108 00:10:50,060 --> 00:10:58,230 Oh, I know the narrative of being a First Nations M80 in UAT, American Indian. 109 00:10:58,230 --> 00:11:05,550 It comes part and parcel with colonialism and that is a very important part of the story in the narrative. 110 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:11,670 But I also think these bags in there, you know, in eighteen hundreds, these bags and from forward, 111 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:19,500 I've seen people wear these beautiful bags during powwows and regalia dances and the tradition has kept on. 112 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:25,440 We've been through so many struggles and yet we're so resilient and we rise above it and we keep our culture. 113 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:34,050 And I encourage any indigenous youth, especially if they're disconnected like I was, to start rebuilding those connexions because it is worth it. 114 00:11:34,050 --> 00:11:39,250 And how so? How do you see and the McCamey say, like the paper biz's, I'm kind of part to play in that. 115 00:11:39,250 --> 00:11:46,800 Do you think we seems to have a part to play? Museums definitely do, especially when they become stewards of these objects. 116 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,970 I know the Pitt Rivers is especially working with the Haida communities. 117 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:58,470 And instead of buying artefacts from the ground and instead of doing that, 118 00:11:58,470 --> 00:12:03,600 they're actually commissioning artists and bringing money and connexions back to the 119 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,130 community in a cycle that's a little bit more healthier than if you were to take, 120 00:12:08,130 --> 00:12:14,370 you know, objects from the ground or, you know, buy them from private collectors. 121 00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:23,490 I think it's important that museums recognise that if you house these items, these are someone's family traditional items, pet patrilineal items. 122 00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:27,360 Someone can look into this museum and say, oh, yes, that was my great grandfather's or something. 123 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:32,160 And you need to be keenly aware that if you're using these objects, 124 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:38,490 they have a history, they have a story, they're not just static, inanimate objects. 125 00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:44,170 And so with with, um, the the octopus bank that you I'm writing about for the exhibition and we're talking about today, 126 00:12:44,170 --> 00:12:48,370 and it's on payment display in the museum in one of our beatbox sections. 127 00:12:48,370 --> 00:12:52,830 What would you like to see the outcome of your research being? 128 00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:56,580 So the object currently has a very small label. 129 00:12:56,580 --> 00:13:02,760 It's very basic. How would you like to see the ritualised interpretation that you bring into the objects? 130 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,650 Kind of. And we want like to be shown permanently alongside the object. How would you like to see? 131 00:13:07,650 --> 00:13:12,780 I have an object like that, the octopus bag and better displayed have more relevance to use. 132 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:21,540 I'm someone who's very connected to the object. I would think I mean, a label that invokes the idea of. 133 00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:25,410 Oh yes. So this isn't just a nice piece of fashion. I mean, it's gorgeous. 134 00:13:25,410 --> 00:13:32,370 It is a beautiful bag. And I whenever I get a chance to look at the close up of the edging and the stitching, 135 00:13:32,370 --> 00:13:40,350 I just I can't fathom half how long this person's making everything completely perfect. 136 00:13:40,350 --> 00:13:51,180 But I would like someone to come away from this bag and saying there is a connexion between however many people from two different sides of the world, 137 00:13:51,180 --> 00:13:58,500 from Turtle Island and Europe. And this is just one of the narratives of that culture clash. 138 00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:04,560 And something happened where, you know, this bag signifies the birth of a nation, 139 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:10,830 of a new type of people, of a new type of language and culture and way of viewing the world. 140 00:14:10,830 --> 00:14:16,930 I don't know if you can offer that in a label. I think that's a little bit of a of a task. 141 00:14:16,930 --> 00:14:26,310 But I also want people to realise that we're not the whole native stereotype of just feathers and paint and and like, 142 00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:32,520 no, we we do have fine crafts and art. We're very skilled artists in our trades. 143 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,290 I mean, it's really it's so important to bring, I think, challenge, challenge stereotypes, like you're saying. 144 00:14:37,290 --> 00:14:45,150 But also it's really how we bring to an object like the octopus back these multiple stories and how I'm a label is not not adequate for that. 145 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:50,010 So hopefully by creating these kind of recordings, we can slowly start to create more layers. 146 00:14:50,010 --> 00:14:54,030 But I think what you've highlighted is the sheer inadequacy of most museum labelling. 147 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:56,370 So there is work for us to continue exploring. 148 00:14:56,370 --> 00:15:05,190 And this is brilliants have summer recorded pointers for Huntingdale that is so generous and let in the community that I have. 149 00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:09,960 Have you been a cotton before? You've had a research visit with a baguette? Yes. So you've seen it up close. 150 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:16,650 I was not expecting how big it was. It's huge. It's it's truly amazing. 151 00:15:16,650 --> 00:15:26,820 And when you get down to the detail of how this artist interwove the threading on it, oh, I couldn't even or I would go cross-eyed. 152 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:35,240 I tried to do that. But definitely it is a piece of ingenious and I love the fact that it truly takes the technologies from 153 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:41,180 two different worlds that you see Mary and antagonistic and it make something beautiful out of them. 154 00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:49,030 That's really interesting. Yes, I say the kind of coalescing of two different worlds and the idea that, you know, that's acute on tech antagonism now. 155 00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:53,000 And I can't speak the antagonism between those two worlds. 156 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,160 But the fact you're saying abuse for objects come out of it, that's that tech can tell such a complex story. 157 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:06,440 That's really lovely. Can you maybe tell me a little bit about the bag that you're making inside this bag? 158 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,920 So it's going to be half the size of this beautiful monstrosity. 159 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:20,620 Just to explain side is they the beautiful monstrosity is cut is 610 millimetres M2 and 280 millimetres wide, according to folks. 160 00:16:20,620 --> 00:16:25,520 I should give you a picture every six. Very good notes. Yes. 161 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:34,070 And I'm keeping with the traditional thar and woodland motif that is prevalent in many M80 art styles. 162 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:39,740 So there will be flowers and there will be swirls and there will be that patterning. 163 00:16:39,740 --> 00:16:49,310 The bag, the original bag, the s black bag keeps the tradition of having the Four Corners, which is very prevalent in Maiti artwork. 164 00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:57,080 So it shows the Four Corners, which are very sacred to native traditions, as well as showing the first stages of vegetation. 165 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:04,640 It shows the roots, the buds, the actual blooms and the leaves of the fruit of the plant. 166 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:10,220 So everything is accounted for in these four sacred directions, in these four sacred categories. 167 00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:18,860 So I'm going to take that tradition for the new bag, but have a little bit more fun with the colours and the symbols, 168 00:17:18,860 --> 00:17:27,350 because this bag is if I was to make this bag for someone else, it would probably be for like a two spirit regalia at a powwow. 169 00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:35,660 I want it to say loud and proud. So I'm going to incorporate, like for the rosebuds instead of your traditional green and pink. 170 00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:40,130 I'm going to have a little bit of blue, pink and white for the trans flag, 171 00:17:40,130 --> 00:17:47,630 the edging that you see on the original bag and the S black bag instead of just the plain beautiful ivory. 172 00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:54,740 It's going to be Rainbow Stitch. We will keep beekeeping, the European heart. 173 00:17:54,740 --> 00:18:00,170 But we'll also be including strawberries, men. So you have the European version of love. 174 00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:06,140 And then you have the strawberries, which are the heart berries for the indigenous motif. 175 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:10,890 So trying to bring those two worlds back together. It's really amazing, I think. 176 00:18:10,890 --> 00:18:18,860 And you're highlighting so well that every symbol on the every object image on the original back has meaning. 177 00:18:18,860 --> 00:18:23,930 I think we often forget that in the museum there's a cacophony of kind of patterns and colours. 178 00:18:23,930 --> 00:18:31,520 They many of the artefacts are sun bleached and quite brown. And we do see a kind of an explosion of different designs and patterns rise. 179 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:37,040 It's really important to remember that everything on this back is has a meaning to it. 180 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,670 So I think you have the bank that you're creating for the collection really highlight that the 181 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:45,080 fact that you're putting continuing to put European symbols of love next to indigenous symbols. 182 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,620 I mean, it's pretty exciting. And we will make sure that we actually tell that story, 183 00:18:48,620 --> 00:18:57,350 that it's not been the original story about that object is not disconnected and lost like so often is what happens in the museum situation. 184 00:18:57,350 --> 00:19:07,280 So I can't wait to see the bags through. Exciting. I was going to ask you to maybe talk a little bit about your thoughts on the time to spirit. 185 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:12,320 Is there anything else you wanted to discuss before we move on to that? 186 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:21,170 I'm just like I just can't wait to really start finishing the details on this bag because it's the best kind of work either ever. 187 00:19:21,170 --> 00:19:25,940 It's connecting to your culture and also relaxing and knowing that you're producing 188 00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:31,310 something that will be shared and enjoyed by as many people as come to this wonderful, 189 00:19:31,310 --> 00:19:35,780 you know. Can I ask you how you how you learnt feedback? Yes, it is true. 190 00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:42,560 I learnt from elders because my grandmother I love my grandmother, but she's not good, sir. 191 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:51,440 So I learnt from elders that actually we're not part of my tribe or not part of my nation. 192 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:58,280 So I had the great fortune to work with co-workers at the Smithsonian. 193 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:05,750 A lot of different nations and tribes. Cherokee Nation, Blackfeet. 194 00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:11,300 I had the good fortune of learning beadwork from elders because I was constantly 195 00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:18,410 around professional indigenous co-workers from all sorts of tribes and nations, 196 00:20:18,410 --> 00:20:27,430 and they kind of took me under their wing. And I remember I during one of my lunch breaks, I started working a little bag just. 197 00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:33,070 Trying to get the stitches right? Trying to get everything to not look so lopsided. 198 00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:37,300 And my co-worker next to me was like, oh, I'm going to a pout out. 199 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:42,010 Can you beat me a little bandoleer bag that I can have as part of my regalia? 200 00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:49,720 And I was so excited that he wanted to wear something of mine that I just really it gave me validation. 201 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:56,110 And so I kept it up. I usually give my my work, too, as gifts. 202 00:20:56,110 --> 00:21:03,460 So I try if I know one of my friends is sad, I will give them a patch or something that I've made that reminds me of them, 203 00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:12,550 whether it's of using a far of their favourite colour or I've done animal pawprints that one of my, you know, was illogically inclined friends like. 204 00:21:12,550 --> 00:21:17,020 So beadwork makes me happy. It connects me to people. 205 00:21:17,020 --> 00:21:23,600 It makes me feel. It makes me feel like I'm honouring the people that have come before me and I never want 206 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,960 these traditions to wane or to stop with me because I feel like then my ancestors, 207 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,100 their dreams won't be fulfilled. We are ancestors, wildest dreams just by being here. 208 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:38,450 And I think that's important. That's what I want to be doing with my beadwork, he said. 209 00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:43,120 Thank you for sharing through the amazing. So did you want to. 210 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:48,110 One of the things that we talked about. And you're writing about for the exhibition is the time to spare. 211 00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:55,400 So I am I do quite a lot of workshops. I'm with young LGBT and Q plus people. 212 00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:04,340 And it amazes me because I'm the type to spirit seems to be really quite well known amongst British kids, which is which is great. 213 00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:09,800 And I was just wondering. They often have a very quite simplistic idea of what spirit means. 214 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,400 I am to be really interested to hear your thoughts on how would you describe to 215 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,110 spirits as maybe to a young person he might already be using time in the UK. 216 00:22:18,110 --> 00:22:25,430 And can you tell me really more about the meaning of the time? So and these are my opinions on the term. 217 00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:35,660 I know there are a lot of different viewings of it because it's such a holistic term and it's so accessible to native peoples. 218 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:38,840 However, you know, they use them. So the term is urging. 219 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:46,280 Coined in 1990 at a conference in Winnipeg, it was the Indigenous, Lesbian and Gay International gathering, 220 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:53,240 and it was proposed as a term to use instead of more Western terminology. 221 00:22:53,240 --> 00:23:03,170 So instead of saying, OK, well, this person is gay or this person is bisexual or something like that, 222 00:23:03,170 --> 00:23:11,180 indigenous people wanted to use a term that distance themselves from Western settler terminology. 223 00:23:11,180 --> 00:23:21,590 And so we suggest the two spirit term and that term, some people use it as a stand in for other for the other LGBT terms. 224 00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:31,880 But in my understanding, in use of it, it's informed a little bit more from indigenous rooted ceremonies and concepts, cultural concepts. 225 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:39,110 So it's a little bit different than saying, well, this is the native version of saying LGBT. 226 00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:44,140 To be honest, when I'm talking to non natives, I kind of sometimes am lazy and I delegate that. 227 00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:53,810 And that's what that means because it's just a little bit more translatable. But indigenous communities have always had our own specific terms, 228 00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:58,280 and that's why there's some criticism with the use of to spirit in that some communities, 229 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:06,110 they already have words like in Lakota you have the Wynnstay, which means someone to become a woman. 230 00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:13,910 You have the Natalya in Denay, which is a form of transformation of gender and sexuality. 231 00:24:13,910 --> 00:24:21,170 And then you have also words in KRI like is queer HÃ¥kon, one who acts lives as a woman and all these different terms. 232 00:24:21,170 --> 00:24:34,190 So our communities do have a language to describe these different identities, which I think is important to hold on to, but some communities don't. 233 00:24:34,190 --> 00:24:43,670 So I think it's important that while we recognise that two spirit is a little bit more of a overreaching and I hate to see the word pan Indian, 234 00:24:43,670 --> 00:24:51,440 but it's a little bit more holistic approach. I think people should be able to use it, especially if they're disconnected natives. 235 00:24:51,440 --> 00:25:04,910 So to spirit just basically means it's an identity, a little bit of an alternative identity to Western terminology of what it means to be straight, 236 00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:13,460 what it means to be cis gender, but it's informed by indigenous concepts and ceremonies was a whole lot of stuff. 237 00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:25,190 Thank you. It's very complicated. It's it's a thing that's rooted in identity and clan culture in roles in so many different tangles. 238 00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:32,300 But to some, it can also just mean that the indigenous version of LGBT. 239 00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:38,470 So it's however you however indigenous people and I identify with how people might rise in time. 240 00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:43,550 That probably doesn't help. But then again, people are people and they're very diverse. 241 00:25:43,550 --> 00:25:50,450 And I'm like you said, say some. Some nations have terminology that's still in use. 242 00:25:50,450 --> 00:25:57,200 Some nations might not. But then I suppose that's that could be relating to the disconnect from Clintonism is why was it so incredibly, 243 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,060 incredibly complicated there in the loss of language and the threat to language? 244 00:26:02,060 --> 00:26:08,450 It may mean you started to when anthropologists would go in and ethnographers would do work with these 245 00:26:08,450 --> 00:26:12,950 tribes and they would use certain outdated terms and the native community would then respond back with. 246 00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:17,000 But that's not what that means. You know, that's not I'm not. 247 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,200 You know, that that. I'm not gay. I just do. 248 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,140 I just do a certain. I just wear a certain ceremonial clothing that, you know. 249 00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:27,560 So there's all these different discrepancies. 250 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:33,070 So native people started to look back into their language and say, well, you know, we do have a word for that. 251 00:26:33,070 --> 00:26:37,670 Oh, well, we do. Let's use that. Some nations and some tribes don't. 252 00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:48,030 Sometimes a word is created, which I think is really great. So keeping that language up in proficiency and also keep adapting it and using it. 253 00:26:48,030 --> 00:26:54,080 And I love it when I hear like, oh, this is the national byword for TV or this is that it's so great. 254 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,640 So I'm amazed I'm the reclaiming or developing new language. 255 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,480 How might that be affecting contemporary ceremonies and practises? 256 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:11,600 Is it or is it? So actually recently in Canada, unfortunately, can't remember what nation did it. 257 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,060 They had a sweat lodge ceremony. 258 00:27:14,060 --> 00:27:22,820 But in order to make the adolescent person comfortable, the adolescent presented the findings as a non binary or an alternative gender. 259 00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:28,510 And so the ceremony language and. 260 00:27:28,510 --> 00:27:32,970 Mainly, most of the logistics were changed to accommodate this young person. 261 00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:38,080 I thought that was amazing. And it came from the initiative of elders. 262 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,850 There is always that tradition where, you know, the old the old generation doesn't want to change. 263 00:27:42,850 --> 00:27:46,960 But the elders recognise that our youth need us. 264 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:52,930 Our youth need to be taking care of ceremonies and medicines, take care of our people. 265 00:27:52,930 --> 00:27:57,250 Everyone needs to be involved. Everyone needs to be accounted for. And everything needs to be accessible. 266 00:27:57,250 --> 00:28:05,890 I think that's wonderful. The nation that my own family is from, Manitoba Matey Matey Federation. 267 00:28:05,890 --> 00:28:12,010 They recently in August just issued a new chief to Spirit Local, 268 00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:20,260 headed by two spirit people to do work with the Maiti community, make sure everyone feels accounted for. 269 00:28:20,260 --> 00:28:24,280 Everyone feels loved, accepted. I thought that was amazing. 270 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:31,210 And these traditions are changing where you have jingle dancers and certain to spare powwows. 271 00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:35,440 Anyone can do a jingle dance, which is traditionally a female form of dancing. 272 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:43,210 It's a healing dance. There is also a sweetheart couples dance where couples would dance in their beautiful regalia. 273 00:28:43,210 --> 00:28:47,740 And recently there has been more to spirit couples joining in on that. 274 00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:53,300 It's become less and less like weird. It's it's just it's wonderful. 275 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:57,040 And especially when it comes from elders who are saying, no, this is this is just as traditional. 276 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,220 We've had these concepts. We've had these languages. 277 00:29:00,220 --> 00:29:07,870 Not to erase the fact that sometimes it is hard for indigenous youth to feel accepted if they do have a different identity, 278 00:29:07,870 --> 00:29:16,930 controversial to either their bands or the tribal law or just the terminology of what they feel like they need to be. 279 00:29:16,930 --> 00:29:25,980 But I feel like it is moving forward to reclaiming the past cultural ways of viewing our people that work to spirit. 280 00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:30,670 And making them feel loved. That's right. That's really, really exciting. 281 00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:35,650 I'm I think I get going back to how I've had young people in the UK using the term two spirit. 282 00:29:35,650 --> 00:29:39,100 I think they found a lot of strength in the time because even if they haven't quite 283 00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:44,980 understood the complexity of the time and the different ways in which it might be used. 284 00:29:44,980 --> 00:29:47,350 I think for the young people I've worked with, 285 00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:54,910 knowing that there is a history beyond the UK and beyond Europe that that there's a legacy for them queer lives. 286 00:29:54,910 --> 00:30:00,460 I think the important work to be found really empowering and kind of aspirational, 287 00:30:00,460 --> 00:30:05,200 too, that they can see their own identity reflected in other cultures. 288 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:10,390 Thank you for explaining that so eloquently himself in such detail. 289 00:30:10,390 --> 00:30:17,190 What else would you like to share? If I were even up to. What are you talking about with the youth and I love. 290 00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:22,480 I used to work in a museum and I would constantly be talking with kids. 291 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:31,010 And I am very involved in queer communities and projects and stuff of that nature. 292 00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:38,140 So sometimes, occasionally I'll get an indigenous youth who is struggling with their identity and their suggesting will. 293 00:30:38,140 --> 00:30:42,350 You know, is it my thinking this because it's a Western concept, it's a contemporary concept. 294 00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:51,410 Is this going against how I should be an indigenous person? And I just remember all the elders that are told me, like you, who you are is traditional. 295 00:30:51,410 --> 00:30:55,990 This this is not going against your ancestors wishes. 296 00:30:55,990 --> 00:31:05,260 This is not going against your tribe's wishes. Your identity is just as traditional and just as valid as anyone else's. 297 00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:11,650 And I think that gives us a lot of strength, especially when some people put it in the context of who you are as a gift from the creator. 298 00:31:11,650 --> 00:31:17,980 And a lot of indigenous communities recognise a creator like getting married, too, or something like that. 299 00:31:17,980 --> 00:31:25,060 And to have that strength, knowing that not only does your community have your back, your creator has your back, but your ancestors have your back. 300 00:31:25,060 --> 00:31:29,470 That is incredibly powerful knowledge to carry with you. 301 00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:34,570 And so I always try to remember them like you're not and you're not going against anything. 302 00:31:34,570 --> 00:31:39,160 You are right where you need to be. It's amazing. 303 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,440 That needs to be a quote on the rule in the exhibition. Definitely. I've just really enjoyed learning from you, actually. 304 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:51,580 And I'm having you as one of our commune's creators. It's been fantastic because I am I remember as a student, 305 00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:59,060 I researched the octopus bag with Laura Pearce press and repairs herem but until recently at the parents, 306 00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:03,520 I and I found this bag absolutely fascinating as the meeting of coaches like like you said. 307 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:04,180 But you for me, 308 00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:10,770 you've completely transformed how I see this object with bringing you in your own narratives and talking about the birth of a new nation. 309 00:32:10,770 --> 00:32:18,430 I am talking about how beadwork has supported you to explore your own identity and reconnect so with your culture. 310 00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:24,640 So I might want to say thank you so much for sharing these stories of millions, that everyday exhibition with a much wider public. 311 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,530 I think it's so important for us all to see that these objects have multiple layers, multiple meanings. 312 00:32:29,530 --> 00:32:38,170 And they this object is currently sitting in the Pyramids Museum. It needs to be re accessed by people beyond the curatorial staff at the museum. 313 00:32:38,170 --> 00:32:43,930 So thank you very much, Tom. Thank you to you and everyone working at the beyond the binary in the pictures 314 00:32:43,930 --> 00:32:49,840 at large because you've made this accessible and a platform for these voices. 315 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,400 I know everyone on the team is extremely just grateful to have this opportunity. 316 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,990 And it is it is viewing these objects is like coming home. 317 00:32:59,990 --> 00:33:07,660 I first came to Oxford and my parents went to the museum. I was in classes and I got the hurried text and my dad with the picture of these bags. 318 00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:12,040 They had me to stuff and it was just so invigorating. 319 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,160 No matter how far away you are for hot from home, there's still there's ways to make those connexions. 320 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,310 And so thank you to the Pitt Rivers now. Thank you. 321 00:33:21,310 --> 00:33:25,830 Amazing folks. Come and join us on doing the biotech's. It's really great, really great experience. 322 00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:33,150 I am an entity. Would have been so nakamori a term anarchy kick. 323 00:33:33,150 --> 00:33:40,414 Time cover palmerton mina sir.