1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,800 So we're going to be talking about Barcus today. And we just want to put a trigger warning at the beginning. 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:10,550 We're going to be talking about sexual content, drugs, right? 3 00:00:10,550 --> 00:00:21,630 The nonconsensual sex. There's a lot of sexual content and a lot of like really drug relevant stuff. 4 00:00:21,630 --> 00:00:26,190 So and, you know, themes of historical homophobia. 5 00:00:26,190 --> 00:00:29,890 Andrea? Yes. Those are just so viewer be, Larry. 6 00:00:29,890 --> 00:00:35,260 Yeah. Hello, my name's J.C. Cattle and I am the project curator for Beyond the Binary. 7 00:00:35,260 --> 00:00:37,870 And I I'm here with two of our amazing community, Creighton's, 8 00:00:37,870 --> 00:00:43,030 who are going to talk about and a couple of items I've been researching and curating the exhibition. 9 00:00:43,030 --> 00:00:51,640 So, Harry and Cam, can you just tell me firstly who you are and what attracts you to become community curators? 10 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:59,230 And I'm Harriet Hovick. I am a museum studies graduate. 11 00:00:59,230 --> 00:01:03,850 So I've been involved with clear museums before. 12 00:01:03,850 --> 00:01:11,200 And I was it did classics at my undergrad. So I've always been into quick school stuff and it's just seemed like a really great project. 13 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,280 Again, vulvas. I was really excited to have the chance. Thank you. 14 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:24,490 I'm Cameron Wallace. I am an archaeology student, but I tend to focus a lot on queer theory in general for my research. 15 00:01:24,490 --> 00:01:30,160 And I'm also looking to do the museum focussed work in the future. 16 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,420 So I for that, this was a really good opportunity to try and get involved. 17 00:01:34,420 --> 00:01:39,430 And because it's right up my alley. Q And I need, I think, creating these objects together, haven't you. 18 00:01:39,430 --> 00:01:44,110 So, um, can I just ask, did you know each other before or have you. Did you meet for this process. 19 00:01:44,110 --> 00:01:48,660 Yes. This process. And how is that been like. I'm okay. Researching and writing. 20 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:52,950 Have you written your interpretation together. Which is fantastic. Yeah, it's been really good. 21 00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:57,880 It's been really nice to have someone to bounce ideas off. Yeah, definitely. It's sort of message at one. 22 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,050 I am like, what's your first here? 23 00:02:02,050 --> 00:02:05,860 Q Well, I'm not sure you hardly ever see ticks. I know you've got latest. Let's talk about. 24 00:02:05,860 --> 00:02:13,450 So you can go for it. Tell us tell us about your Jackson and I will listen and learn. 25 00:02:13,450 --> 00:02:17,340 OK, so we're going to talk about Marcus today. 26 00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:22,830 We're going to talk about Baccus slashed diagnosis slash Lehnberg, because you know, 27 00:02:22,830 --> 00:02:29,880 all the names here the has used over time because as with all sort of ancient deities, it's all very mixed up. 28 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,580 Yeah, very much like an amalgamation. Very, very old guy. 29 00:02:34,580 --> 00:02:41,460 Yeah. So start with where he's from, like, you know, the origins of him. 30 00:02:41,460 --> 00:02:50,850 Yeah. So he's kind of considered like an eastern God because he tends to have roots in like the Middle East, like the Naree. 31 00:02:50,850 --> 00:02:58,350 He's kind of area. And he's like considered to have come to Greece and Rome from the east. 32 00:02:58,350 --> 00:03:03,210 Yeah. I think there's like evidence for the coast on ISIS dating. 33 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:07,020 Well, we got to the Mycenaean period in 14th century B.C., so. 34 00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:10,940 Yeah, you know, a long time before I ask Lathan's room. 35 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:18,120 Yeah. Like, truly Định. You got. Yeah. Much more ancient than lots of the other more well-known gods of the great pantheon. 36 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:28,710 Yes, exactly. Like his mythology as well is quite interesting because he actually links very well 37 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:37,350 to the concept of like queer identity through the mythology surrounding his birth. 38 00:03:37,350 --> 00:03:45,330 What basically happened is, as a son of Jesus, he was born from an affair, as always. 39 00:03:45,330 --> 00:03:59,760 And when Herer found out about the affair, she tricked she tricked back, says Mother IN2, having Zoove show her his true form. 40 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:12,720 But that killed her. So while Barcus was able to be saved and sewn in to the thigh of Zus until he was full term, like finished incubating. 41 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:22,440 Yeah, it was very weird. But he sprung guy from Zusi, his thigh, and he is considered to be twice born because of that, 42 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:30,270 which kind of fits into themes of rebirth that tend to link to like transgender themes. 43 00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:34,410 As well as there has to hide him from Hera. 44 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:49,080 He was sent to live with his maternal aunt. I know. And was raised as a woman tha like his early years, like he he grew up raised as a woman would be. 45 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:57,910 And even then after like the the pop was found out, he was sent again to live with women, he was sent to live with nymphs. 46 00:04:57,910 --> 00:05:03,020 So. I've just come here or. 47 00:05:03,020 --> 00:05:07,250 Oh, I'm sorry I interrupted you. No, no. 48 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:12,410 It's important to know. So here was the wife of Zus. 49 00:05:12,410 --> 00:05:18,910 She is the wife. She's the sister. Wife use because. Well, Greek mythology is complete. 50 00:05:18,910 --> 00:05:27,400 Oh, yeah. Very complicated. But she was also the goddess of like marriage. 51 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:33,890 The family, that kind of thing was an idea because it's pretty consistently cheated on her. 52 00:05:33,890 --> 00:05:37,850 Yes. Many are not impressed. Which is fair enough. 53 00:05:37,850 --> 00:05:42,510 Yeah. Worse than EastEnders. Yeah. Yeah, it is. 54 00:05:42,510 --> 00:05:47,540 Modern Stone Bocker. Yes, sir. 55 00:05:47,540 --> 00:05:53,560 So yes, sir, denies this has a really interesting narratives to do towards like non binary and transience because like, 56 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,210 say, he was like twice born and then he was raised as a woman. 57 00:05:58,210 --> 00:06:03,820 And then later on he became a sort of non binary figure. 58 00:06:03,820 --> 00:06:10,780 Yeah, I should just say we're using him pronouns because the vast majority of the sources do that, which is why. 59 00:06:10,780 --> 00:06:21,020 Yeah. I mean, I guess it's up to interpretation, but yeah, it's just I mean, all of the gods, you know, gender is a wild concept really. 60 00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:25,660 Even not like a. Yeah. Powerful beings. Yes. Especially for fertility. 61 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:38,150 God. Slike like he was. Because that's very much like a more fluid situation and lots of his presentation in art. 62 00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:40,270 You know, also reflects his non binary nature. 63 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:48,790 Like very often [INAUDIBLE] be like typical effeminate poses, half smooth legs, long, long curly hair flowing grey. 64 00:06:48,790 --> 00:06:56,800 Yeah. Yeah. And there's also quite a lot of composite statues of him, which is a female heads on male bodies, which is cool. 65 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:03,310 And also a couple of like paintings where he's like him and a woman are in the painting and he's mirroring her pose. 66 00:07:03,310 --> 00:07:04,960 So I get, you know, 67 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:12,190 later in Temptation's play a lot with the fact that he is non binary and sort of incorporate his fluid gender identity and which is. 68 00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:16,690 Which is very cool. Yeah. Yeah. 69 00:07:16,690 --> 00:07:21,910 And as well as being sort of non binary gender. Yeah. So wasn't heterosexual. 70 00:07:21,910 --> 00:07:29,290 No. As the the majority of the Greek. Well the majority is the right word with lots of Greek gods. 71 00:07:29,290 --> 00:07:34,230 Let's. Yeah. As was common and as was common. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 72 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:45,430 He had lie in myths. At least he had male lovers like Adonis, the really handsome youth and the softer Seita and Pelosse. 73 00:07:45,430 --> 00:07:46,420 Yeah. 74 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:56,080 And also one of my favourite stories about him was he once made a journey to Hades and he was guided by a shepherd, a human shepherd awesomeness. 75 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,530 I'm pronouncing that right. Who said, yeah, yeah. 76 00:07:59,530 --> 00:08:06,730 I'll guide you. But if you sleep with me afterwards and demonises agreed and guide you to the after to the afterlife. 77 00:08:06,730 --> 00:08:11,950 But unfortunately, he died before dawn. ISIS could fulfil his promise. 78 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:19,030 And so afterwards down, ISIS went to the tomb of present positiveness. 79 00:08:19,030 --> 00:08:24,400 Created a wooden phallus and ritually fulfilled them for us here. 80 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,640 Which is just incredibly extra dedication and dedication. 81 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,640 I'm not sure if that was for that person, if I were you. 82 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,590 So Yessiree is very much not straight. Yeah, very much known. 83 00:08:37,590 --> 00:08:43,000 Hornery. Very cool. Queer figure. Yeah. 84 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:51,550 Does also kind of links to like between this and the story of hermaphrodites. 85 00:08:51,550 --> 00:08:54,070 So in of its metamorphosis, 86 00:08:54,070 --> 00:09:06,360 he talks about the story of hermaphrodite earths in links to why Bucha should be respected and why the gold should be respected in general. 87 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:18,610 Hermaphrodites was a young man who was beloved by a young woman. 88 00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:24,680 However. He was not in love with her. 89 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:40,250 In a very unfortunate way, she attempted to rape him and while she was doing this act, she prayed to the gods that she would never part from him, 90 00:09:40,250 --> 00:09:48,100 which caused the gods to fulfil this promise in a way that wasn't particularly pleasant. 91 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:58,250 Hermaphrodites, and that they fused their two bodies together so that they would become like an intersex being. 92 00:09:58,250 --> 00:10:03,590 And obviously, while this is like put it into negative connotations, 93 00:10:03,590 --> 00:10:20,740 this kind of myth might kind of be a reasoning behind the existence of intersex people in a way that is linking reality to mythology and. 94 00:10:20,740 --> 00:10:25,720 And what about the cult of ISIS? Oh, OK. 95 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:32,380 The goals are fairly whack. Yeah. The call is very weird. 96 00:10:32,380 --> 00:10:41,740 First things first is the the call of like Barcus Andien, ISIS and every name that he had was it was a mystery call. 97 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:46,540 So there's not a whole surviving literature on it. 98 00:10:46,540 --> 00:10:52,740 And most of it is from the male perspective, which we should always take with a grain of salt. 99 00:10:52,740 --> 00:11:01,090 Lots. The events. Female only. So, yeah, it was it was like a very female predominant call. 100 00:11:01,090 --> 00:11:07,960 And those white female tended to be people who weren't necessarily the main part of 101 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:16,120 society cause it wasn't really a mainstream cult until like the late Hellenistic period. 102 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:25,210 So for like the majority of its time, it was a make mystery, very not mainstream call that not many people were part of. 103 00:11:25,210 --> 00:11:28,870 So those who were kind of like outcasts of society. 104 00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:42,040 But what we do know about this call is that there was a lot of usage of potent drugs within it because barfs was the God, 105 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,640 not only of like partying and why. And then that kind of thing. 106 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:51,550 He was also the the god of madness. 107 00:11:51,550 --> 00:12:02,920 So through the usage of these drugs and some of these drugs which affected sexuality, like people would be driven to like at a frenzied ecstasy. 108 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:09,310 What is quite interesting and maybe slightly odd is that a lot of these drugs 109 00:12:09,310 --> 00:12:16,330 were hired via the vagina and the anus through the use of medicated [INAUDIBLE]. 110 00:12:16,330 --> 00:12:24,160 So, like, it would be free the anus for men and for the vagina for women. 111 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:33,550 We know this because this was a very common theme in mystery cults, but also because in Virgil. 112 00:12:33,550 --> 00:12:51,760 He describes a lacto the fury goddess who was a and to have applied snake venom as a drug to a mortal queen's biological pocket, 113 00:12:51,760 --> 00:13:06,570 as it was referred to under assault, not yet as it was referred to him in order to drive this queen into this frenzy. 114 00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:14,880 And vipers as well were associated along with Bathurst's. 115 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:23,970 It's part of the reason why a lot of the duties associated with the worship were young 116 00:13:23,970 --> 00:13:29,940 women who had never been pregnant but were somehow able to provide breast milk, 117 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:34,080 because this is thing that I find very interesting to learn. 118 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:43,230 Apparently, viper venom can stimulate the mammary gland in order to produce breast milk without needing to be pregnant. 119 00:13:43,230 --> 00:13:48,470 So this is good. A new concept. Yeah. 120 00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:55,380 Oh, yeah. But it's kind of. 121 00:13:55,380 --> 00:13:59,350 Associate with Nonmarried. Virgin women. 122 00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:04,510 But I suppose it's like Virgin back then, kind of man not married to a man. 123 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:13,110 So obviously lots of room for interpretation there, I suppose. 124 00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:20,190 But yeah, like, obviously, aside from the obvious kind of more sexually charged aspect as well, 125 00:14:20,190 --> 00:14:29,890 like the medicated [INAUDIBLE] and batteries and things which words cause like a sexual frenzy within the call. 126 00:14:29,890 --> 00:14:40,260 We would very much linked to like sexuality and such. Another part of the quote wash, it was because Diane, ISIS himself was very non binary. 127 00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:46,420 He was a god of duality. During court worship. 128 00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:54,670 Gender roles were generally inverted, so men would act as women did and women would act as men did, 129 00:14:54,670 --> 00:15:01,210 so women would be like hunting, whereas men would not be doing that. 130 00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:10,690 It was very much like a. I suppose given society standards at the time, it is very much like a topsy turvy kind of cold. 131 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:16,540 Yeah, I think it least with what you said about, you know, the fact that it was women and sort of people on the outskirts of society. 132 00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:25,920 Yes. Lower-class people who were really enslaved people, foreigners who were really attracted to the cult because it is a chance, 133 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:32,070 you know, in this very strict, rigid society, it was a chance to break free. Which is why he's so grateful, like breaking the. 134 00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:37,750 Beyond the binary, you know, because that's his whole deal. Basically, I like I like we just said, breaking the binary. 135 00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:43,170 I thought we should be breaking the binary. Yeah. 136 00:15:43,170 --> 00:15:50,740 And it's obviously this this sort of caused quite a lot of anxiety around around the scope because in classical, 137 00:15:50,740 --> 00:15:55,800 you know, classical Greece, classical Athens was very strongly patriarchal and women's roles are very controlled. 138 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,980 So, yeah, I stayed in a house that couldn't leave without a chaperone. 139 00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:04,710 I had I had to because that can can own property, can invest, can inherit property. 140 00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:12,540 And so within this context, the idea of women who left the house, they had the hair and covered and, you know, wild. 141 00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:19,200 Quite often it's said that they they like hunted animals, like comes out and sort of torn apart with their bare hands. 142 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,000 You know, like this whole sex, drugs, rock n roll, you know. Yeah. 143 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,400 Atmosphere was very scary to men of the time. 144 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:35,910 And that's reflected in, you know, the way that it's presented by men like one of the one of the most well known examples is their bucchi, 145 00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:40,420 which is a tragedy by your footy's that was actually performed at the city, Dionisio, 146 00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:45,060 which is a city festival in honour of doen ISIS, where they carry giant Dodo's through the streets. 147 00:16:45,060 --> 00:16:51,450 And just to stay on theme and form tragedies and such a place. 148 00:16:51,450 --> 00:17:00,510 And this this tragedy was about King Pantheist, king of thieves who refused to accept an ISIS, you know, as a God who refused to allow his worship. 149 00:17:00,510 --> 00:17:06,570 And so so the punishment is not done. ISIS drove all of the women out of the cities to come and worship him. 150 00:17:06,570 --> 00:17:11,190 And, you know, they were up on the hills tearing their hair running around. 151 00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:17,300 And King Plenteous basically gets very, very fostered by this and worked himself into a frenzy imagining what these women are doing. 152 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:22,290 It's about compendious is like ingrained issues and anything else. 153 00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:27,720 So he comes up with a bright idea to disguise himself as a women, to go and spy on them because it just, you know, 154 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,940 just to cheque that everything was fine, see no reason for wanting to spy on them because it's a tragedy. 155 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:39,030 It ends very badly. And that confronts his mother. The queen was one of the women who'd been driven mad. 156 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:49,740 And in the end, she actually rips her son apart with her bare hands because she's driven more by ISIS to to sort of get revenge on this and to, 157 00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:54,020 you know, to emphasise that he should be being worshipped. 158 00:17:54,020 --> 00:18:03,720 Yeah. Wow. This is indicative of the attitude of men towards in that it was very scary, you know, very out of control and very terrible. 159 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:11,940 And, you know, they really wanted to control it. I think I'm going to get to Roman times, like with the bacchanalia bacchanalia. 160 00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:15,400 This gets even worse. Yes. 161 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:24,570 Like Livi, who's a Roman historian, he talks about it and he says the the like the his the hype basically spread like a plague. 162 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:31,140 And he said it attracts the plebeians, which is the word for the like the lower less planful plus. 163 00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:37,740 And. We all remember that scumbag is a. 164 00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:44,460 So it's the plebeians, the women, the young, the his quote, the morally weak and the effeminate men. 165 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:48,300 So, you know, obviously it was still attracting people on the outskirts of society. 166 00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:54,270 And Livi sort of worked himself into a frenzy, talking about the orgies, the murder, the, you know, everything about it. 167 00:18:54,270 --> 00:19:02,700 And this contributed to the fact that in 106 B.C., they the Senate passed a law that basically banned worship of Barkus. 168 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:08,760 You had to have official permission to do it. You couldn't be in groups of more than five, you know, lots of restrictions, 169 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:15,150 which probably people think it was more to do with their fear of social organisation because, 170 00:19:15,150 --> 00:19:19,740 you know, it was the the lower classes who had much less power than them. 171 00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:24,360 But you know what? Also, there were more of them. So as with all societies. 172 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,410 Yeah. The people in power are scared of people rising up. 173 00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:36,730 And so it was probably, you know, more to do with this fear of social organisation, of those who have been disenfranchised, finance of power. 174 00:19:36,730 --> 00:19:40,650 It was a very sort of fight, the man kind of whole. 175 00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:45,060 And you don't get to get much more the man than Imperial. 176 00:19:45,060 --> 00:19:51,450 Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's time to bring back the go of the rope. 177 00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:56,070 Yes, absolutely. Yeah. 178 00:19:56,070 --> 00:20:03,700 Well, speaking of that big box, live animals. 179 00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:13,430 I love her tearing medicated doctor. But modern interpretations of Pakistan, ISIS. 180 00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:19,580 Yeah, you know, a big part of, I think, why we're aware of them and interested in him. 181 00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:33,380 I suppose everyone has kind of heard of Percy Jackson, the book series, this young Gödel Child book series, which takes place in modern day New York. 182 00:20:33,380 --> 00:20:39,590 And essentially what it is, is that the gods are still around and they're still having children. 183 00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:44,420 And it follows this guy, Percy Jackson, whose father is Poseidon. 184 00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:53,360 And it's talks about just like them doing like classical heroic quests, essentially a modern day. 185 00:20:53,360 --> 00:21:05,780 Yeah. In the modern day. But it kind of has led to a resurgence, I guess, of like modern interpretation of like the Greek and Roman gods. 186 00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:13,280 And in one of the kind of spin off books of the past, Jackson's areas, which is about like the Greek gods. 187 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:19,340 It talks about and ISIS and his links to gender identity. 188 00:21:19,340 --> 00:21:27,740 It goes into the story of birth and how he was raised and very plainly on the page 189 00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:33,560 says diagnosis can be a god of like people who are questioning their gender. 190 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,790 People who are intersex, that kind of thing for children's books, areas. 191 00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:48,080 That's amazing to have, you know. And that's kind of brought it back in to thought that, oh, well, if people are thinking this now, 192 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,970 maybe they're thinking about looking at stocks of classical stuff, is digging through, 193 00:21:52,970 --> 00:21:56,930 you know, a lot of very unpleasant like with the myth of hermaphrodite. Yes. 194 00:21:56,930 --> 00:22:01,400 You want representation. You have to peel back the layers. Very unpleasant stuff. 195 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,100 And so it's nice to have it in a modern context. 196 00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:11,840 You know, that actually acknowledges and yeah, like, I feel very strongly with things like queer stuff in the past. 197 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,560 And, you know, people can argue, oh, wouldn't it be the same back then? 198 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,950 Or they wouldn't have thought of it back then. And it's like, really? 199 00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:25,930 There's no reason why not. Yes. There's no reason why people wouldn't connect to these deities, you know, thousands of years ago. 200 00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:33,350 Yeah, the same way as we do today. Just because they didn't have the same labels doesn't mean that these people didn't exist yet. 201 00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:39,050 Yeah. And, you know, we've had hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years of hetero normative says, 202 00:22:39,050 --> 00:22:44,760 normative narratives talking about it, which makes it seem impossible that they could have existed. 203 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:50,600 And actually, I think now, you know, yeah, people are starting to feel kind of in a period where people, 204 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:59,060 like, fully starting to dig into it and do that research scientist question assumptions. 205 00:22:59,060 --> 00:23:03,710 So there's two particular Baccus objects in the collection that you're writing about. 206 00:23:03,710 --> 00:23:10,740 Say that both terracotta figures, you think sewing earth so quite smooth and beautifully like vehicles, 207 00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:15,110 few to able to tell this really interesting symmetry that kind of spirals out into. 208 00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:22,040 Like we said, reallocated, vacated due to unpleasant myths and all sorts of things when he puts to me. 209 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,030 So what do you think the importance is if I'm telling this story? 210 00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:30,350 Why did you want to tell this story in the period this resample in Oxford? 211 00:23:30,350 --> 00:23:38,390 Is it important to tell? Yes, it's definitely important to tell you something that I have been told a lot. 212 00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:45,350 As someone who is non binary is that my identity didn't exist in the past, 213 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:50,340 like it's only sprung by it because of like the Internet culture that we're living in. 214 00:23:50,340 --> 00:23:59,750 It's it's not a real identity. It's something that is very new, which is I know how a lot of people, like a lot of people, are told this. 215 00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:05,720 It's it's and then it's kind of your view in your face like, oh, no, we've we live in a binary society. 216 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,830 It's always been a binder. Sadaat Society. How dare you imply overlies? 217 00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:18,380 My goal in life is to counteract that is it's very much like, no, we've always existed. 218 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:27,590 I can show you countless examples of how we've existed. So maybe don't think it's so important. 219 00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:30,380 Like interspace like the Pitt Rivers. Yeah. 220 00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:35,780 Because in museums, people I think often go to museums, look at stuff in cases and think, oh, that is a fact. 221 00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:37,910 That is history. That is indisputable. 222 00:24:37,910 --> 00:24:46,100 So I think it's so important to have in places like that that hold so much weight and so much history to have very explicit representation, 223 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:51,640 to sort of be like I actually think twice about this or look at this, because, 224 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,940 you know, throughout the collections has got so much stuff that has resonance. 225 00:24:55,940 --> 00:25:01,560 And it's just about sort of changing the way that you look at the stuff, I guess, and thinking about it. 226 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,840 Yeah, I think when we first started doing the. Such projects. Couple of my mom told me this morning. 227 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,950 We've met before. But I was told by a couple of colleagues that this might be bothering, says just not any material. 228 00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:22,110 That's nice. I'm not going to find anything. And very quickly, working people like yourself and I'm AM and all sorts of people. 229 00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:29,910 It's become really clear that actually it's the best, best question to ask is what can't be good and what isn't relevant to queer history 230 00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:35,080 is actually everything that we say potentially has a relevance to someone. 231 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:43,200 Yeah. Thank you for reaffirming that. Yeah. Where everyone is and how. 232 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,840 It sounds to me like you've actually really enjoyed doing the research and they tell. 233 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,140 Tell me a bit more about how you've done it, how your process has been. I think it's helped with us that it's been collaborative. 234 00:25:52,140 --> 00:25:56,620 So, yes, so much more enjoyable because we do just like talk about it for a long time. 235 00:25:56,620 --> 00:25:58,080 We could do that. You mean to talk about it? 236 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:05,090 And then an hour later and we just talk about 30 jokes written down the name, that book, the Percy Jackson I'm Gonna Fire. 237 00:26:05,090 --> 00:26:12,000 It is really good. We got a library section in the exhibition, so we should definitely fill it up. 238 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,440 If I like the the the original series wasn't very. 239 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:22,060 But then, like, he got clearer and clearer in his books, like I really liked that about him, 240 00:26:22,060 --> 00:26:26,520 like wrote Disney until I publish it with like the Yes is normal straight guy. 241 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,320 And then all of a sudden yes. Everything is saying what really like guru of the time. 242 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:40,150 Yeah. Really like chocolate. I like the way and the idea of Poseidon having a Uncle Percy as well. 243 00:26:40,150 --> 00:26:42,840 Is there anything else you'd like to share about? 244 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:51,180 I'm like I think that you might have gotten say anything additional about what you've been doing as a community curator or anything to you. 245 00:26:51,180 --> 00:26:55,080 I think another thing about doing the research and stuff is it's regal because a lot of 246 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,690 it is sort of classic academic research and a lot of time trying to find out the potter. 247 00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:03,030 Who's that one? What does this touches us from? And, you know, tracing back to that. 248 00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:10,120 And then also it's you can go beyond that and yeah, look at, you know, like children's books and also like, 249 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,890 you know, personal testimonials of queer people and what this means to them. 250 00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:20,430 And I think it's a cool thing about doing like queer theory where research is that, you know, you can get you can meld the two. 251 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:29,280 It's like very strict academic disciplines. Yeah. Like one thing that like you wouldn't expect to be able to use in, like, 252 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:37,450 kind of academic research is the one thing I do is I go on websites and I'll be like top 15 queer God. 253 00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:44,280 It's like like it's a it's a very good starting place really, because it's got like the little bits of information. 254 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,590 It's like, well, did you know this? And it's like I didn't know that I can link it to that. 255 00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:54,720 So it's quite nice because obviously those kinds of things are written by queer people or allies. 256 00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:00,540 So it's like you kind of like, well, yeah, I can I can, like, get behind that interpretation. 257 00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:00,900 Yeah. 258 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:07,720 And it's nice having you being able to look at it and then go back to the roots and, you know, back it up and to look at source and stuff like that. 259 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:13,570 Like yes. Like retracing the pier. It's what I really love about you, your written interpretation and what you've talked about today. 260 00:28:13,570 --> 00:28:19,580 So relate Spook's. Why I would. And I think that's so important. And so I'm of course rigorous, academia's important to. 261 00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:29,340 But as you know. By academics. Yeah. I think it's so important to make this kind of work relatable and of value to all sorts. 262 00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:33,960 People are coming in off the street. I'm in Oxford. We have massively diverse populations. 263 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,710 So we have highly educated people. We have people who are much more kind of self educated. 264 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:42,320 But I think you you work. Can I speak to everyone? That's really exciting. 265 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,570 Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to finish off with one question. 266 00:28:47,570 --> 00:28:50,970 What would you like the legacy of this to be? So I'm in. 267 00:28:50,970 --> 00:28:56,130 I don't know if these objects that you're voicing by on permanent display, I can't remember, but they're. 268 00:28:56,130 --> 00:29:01,230 What would you like the story? It's really like these stories be told more permanently in the galleries. 269 00:29:01,230 --> 00:29:05,600 Like how? And I think I know your answer. It probably is important. 270 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:12,200 So what what should be the outcome of this work to think of back to normal, to think that's normal in inverted commas? 271 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:18,560 Two things go back to how they were before. Or do you see these kind of narratives being explored more, more in-depth? 272 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:26,520 I actually I did my master's dissertation on quiff. Um, I was perfect for five. 273 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,350 Yeah. Yeah. We need to have your decision. Yeah. Yeah. Like definitely. 274 00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:35,970 Yeah, definitely. Of permanence. I think I you know, I think projects like this is special. 275 00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:44,110 Lots of times when that. Right. Not this one but around History Month, instruments and stuff have as I think E.J. Scott said, 276 00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:48,900 the security of the museum translated supercool is like it's important that, 277 00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:55,720 you know, crimsons pop up and then they don't pop down like, yeah, I think it has to be integrated in a meaningful way. 278 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:03,610 Yeah. I mean, like one thing I found, especially around like Pride Month and stuff is the. 279 00:30:03,610 --> 00:30:08,630 He says will be very like fish, visibly like, oh, yes, we support. 280 00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:13,040 We support gay and trans people. We are going to. Yeah, we're doing all that and as soon as the month. 281 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:18,680 And it's like it's never happened. And it's like they don't do anything to back it up. 282 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,740 So I think it's really important for permanence because then it shows that like, no, this isn't just a trend. 283 00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:30,650 This isn't just trying to get bonus points. This is us making a change. 284 00:30:30,650 --> 00:30:41,210 I think that's reflected in the permanent labels. If they're implementor stays or possibly or do you guide or another sort of guide or trial. 285 00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:45,430 This is great. What I do, I take this bit of the interview and take it to the rest of my colleagues. 286 00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:51,140 Right. Let's do this. I have spoken. Amazing. 287 00:30:51,140 --> 00:31:00,937 Thank you so much. It's really, really lovely to see how you both look about what you've been doing.