1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:11,340 2 00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:21,690 Welcome to the Rivers Museums. Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy, 3 00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:34,040 speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy. 4 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:42,430 Hi, it's Bessie, and I joined Meghan Dr. Carrick from public, is an instructor in museum studies at the University of Toronto, 5 00:00:42,430 --> 00:00:46,540 who is committed to decolonising the museum through working with collections. 6 00:00:46,540 --> 00:00:52,660 She has worked with the Haida Repatriation Committee, which has heavily impacted her collections and museum work, 7 00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:56,740 and has worked with the Pitt Rivers and the Haida and joint efforts in the past. 8 00:00:56,740 --> 00:01:02,590 So we're thrilled to talk to you today. Thank you so much for agreeing to come here and speak with us. 9 00:01:02,590 --> 00:01:07,630 Well, thank you for the invitation and to talk about, you know, relatively nerdy collections, things. 10 00:01:07,630 --> 00:01:12,700 Yeah, we've been most of what we've been doing thus far has been focussing on the collections development policy, 11 00:01:12,700 --> 00:01:19,780 which is supposed to be reviewed every five years. I think this year is sort of us constituting the very big overhaul review, 12 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:23,560 and the main thing that we wanted to talk about was the Rivers mission statement. 13 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,870 How do you think that the Rivers mission statement really compares to other museums mission statements, 14 00:01:28,870 --> 00:01:35,950 especially those who have made the commitment to sort of decolonised? Is that really an important aspect of that whole process? 15 00:01:35,950 --> 00:01:43,390 I don't think the mission statement is all that far out of line from other mission statements in terms of museums. 16 00:01:43,390 --> 00:01:53,620 You know, it's interesting you ask about mission statements in regards to decolonisation, and it's a very specific act at a museum. 17 00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:58,100 Wide level decolonisation is still relatively new. 18 00:01:58,100 --> 00:02:06,190 So if I think about, you know, the collections policy and that it was written and approved in sort of twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, 19 00:02:06,190 --> 00:02:10,330 you know, and and it encourages a five year review, 20 00:02:10,330 --> 00:02:14,800 the same thing is sort of true mission statement specifically sort of every five years, 21 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:22,570 it wouldn't be uncommon for a museum to revisit their mission statement and figure out if it needs changing or not. 22 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:32,830 And so in that sense, it is. It is an ongoing process for any museum and particularly those, I suppose, 23 00:02:32,830 --> 00:02:40,900 that are interested in decolonisation to think about their mission statement and what they would like to achieve. 24 00:02:40,900 --> 00:02:49,480 I, you know, if I think sort of globally right now and if I think about the shift in definition of museum that 25 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:58,150 icon was looking to put forward and the fact that that actually has not yet succeeded or changed. 26 00:02:58,150 --> 00:03:08,050 I don't know that there's anything predictable about what a mission statement for a decolonising institution would look like. 27 00:03:08,050 --> 00:03:19,720 And I think actually one of the big challenges is for those encyclopaedic or universal museums and museums far beyond the scope of Pitt rivers, 28 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:29,950 and they have a very challenging time in terms of creating a institutional wide mission statement that resonates with all departments, right? 29 00:03:29,950 --> 00:03:36,760 And. Yeah. I don't know if that fully answers your question, 30 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:43,120 but I don't think there is a norm yet for what a mission statement looks like in terms of decolonising. 31 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:48,130 No, that's fantastic to hear. Thank you. Yeah, I think just kind of going off on that, 32 00:03:48,130 --> 00:03:52,630 and I think it is worth saying as well that the mission statement that is featured on the corrections 33 00:03:52,630 --> 00:03:58,720 department policy isn't necessarily the same mission statement as is on the strategic plan, 34 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,520 which came out in 2017. 35 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:10,450 So presumably, obviously, the the new collection policy would include an updated mission statement, either that that's on the strategic plan. 36 00:04:10,450 --> 00:04:15,500 I'll just put in the chat the one that I. 37 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:26,240 Has this kind of more updated, but this all said, if you Google, you know, Pitt Rivers mission statement, the old one does come up. 38 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,000 If you look at the collections development policy, the old cup does come up. 39 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:37,730 So you know it is worth analysing as part of that and also as a representative to the rest of the document as well. 40 00:04:37,730 --> 00:04:46,730 So I think in terms of that, I'll give you a chance to read what a number of the things that we pointed out. 41 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:52,360 And in some of the questions that we've maybe sent you before has. 42 00:04:52,360 --> 00:05:00,550 Centred around things that maybe not represented in this, but also maybe are with slightly different wording. 43 00:05:00,550 --> 00:05:06,550 So I think on that is, you know, how much do you think the language is really? 44 00:05:06,550 --> 00:05:14,170 Important, and the language is maybe incongruous with the institution's stated goals. 45 00:05:14,170 --> 00:05:26,370 I think the biggest. Tension between mission statements, generally speaking, and decolonial work in museums. 46 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:29,910 Is that mission statements, generally speaking? 47 00:05:29,910 --> 00:05:41,640 Tend to understand museums as benevolent places, as places of good and decolonising practise and decolonisation as as an approach, 48 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:55,050 as a goal actually contends with the opposite and reckons with the fact that museums have created harm and violence and are not inherently benevolent. 49 00:05:55,050 --> 00:06:05,010 So I think that's the sort of the biggest tension for me across institutions and not only in terms of, 50 00:06:05,010 --> 00:06:18,770 say, the Pitt rivers more up to date mission statement. I, you know, for museums, there is a lot of reckoning to be done. 51 00:06:18,770 --> 00:06:27,290 But if we think about what a mission statement is, it is about a future goal and to work towards and to build something. 52 00:06:27,290 --> 00:06:38,420 And so in that sense, you know, is the mission statement the place where you reckon in terms of culpability, historic culpability? 53 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:43,460 Or is it a place where perhaps you 4front future responsibility and those might 54 00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:48,590 look relatively the same and they might appear in the same mission statement? 55 00:06:48,590 --> 00:06:56,120 It's not impossible, but I think part of it is sort of understanding like what does the mission statement help an institution do? 56 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:01,190 And it helps it make decisions and and work towards a future goal. 57 00:07:01,190 --> 00:07:07,130 Do you think the retrospective analysis could be part of that future goal? 58 00:07:07,130 --> 00:07:12,050 Sure. Yes, without question. 59 00:07:12,050 --> 00:07:17,210 And when I think about the work of museums and when I think about the work of the Paris Museum, 60 00:07:17,210 --> 00:07:26,090 most of the folks and most of the work I see being done there is precisely doing that reckoning and. 61 00:07:26,090 --> 00:07:35,720 And it's doing it in a way that. And is hoping I would, you know, I would say, to inspire and share knowledge. 62 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:42,670 Right. And it's an interesting question, right? In terms of. 63 00:07:42,670 --> 00:07:48,430 What is what is the objective or what is the desired outcome in terms of visitors 64 00:07:48,430 --> 00:07:54,520 to our institutions and inspiring visitors is not necessarily a bad thing, 65 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,900 right? And it might be that we inspire visitors to change, right? 66 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:02,290 We might inspire visitors to change their understanding of history, 67 00:08:02,290 --> 00:08:12,260 to change their understanding of colonialism, of, you know, British imperialism and. 68 00:08:12,260 --> 00:08:20,710 And so. You know, these are in some ways these are quite small semantic shifts, and they can be very powerful to people. 69 00:08:20,710 --> 00:08:27,140 I don't want to undermine the value of words. And I know that the Label Matters project is really significant. 70 00:08:27,140 --> 00:08:30,230 And the words matter projects in Europe is really significant. 71 00:08:30,230 --> 00:08:35,920 So I'm not trying to undermine the value of specific words, but I guess I'm also trying to think about, 72 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,460 you know, what is it that we what our mission statements to do? 73 00:08:40,460 --> 00:08:45,520 And I also think it's so interesting how you talk about this assumption in particularly the 74 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:51,880 first mission statement of the museum as a benevolent place that exists for public service. 75 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,830 And we've been talking a lot about sort of this definition of the public. 76 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:04,030 And do you see any shifts between the first mission statement in the collections development policy and the 77 00:09:04,030 --> 00:09:10,090 second one that Betty has in the chat in terms of which public they're really trying to serve and address here? 78 00:09:10,090 --> 00:09:17,320 Well, the widest possible public is the original statement. 79 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:27,120 Global audiences when suggest the widest possible public is still of interest and. 80 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:35,490 If you are an institution such as the Pitt Rivers with amazingly global collections really from all the continents, 81 00:09:35,490 --> 00:09:42,360 maybe save Antarctica, and even then, I'm not sure there may be Antarctic materials. 82 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:52,150 You do have wide and varied publics, there is no doubt about it. 83 00:09:52,150 --> 00:10:02,340 And. There is a real challenge, I think, for institutions that gathered globally, that collected globally, 84 00:10:02,340 --> 00:10:11,280 extracted globally to figure out exactly to whom they are predominantly responsible when 85 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:18,210 the collections come from a different place than your funding comes from right there. 86 00:10:18,210 --> 00:10:25,590 It's not an easy question actually to figure out how do you how do you serve local audiences? 87 00:10:25,590 --> 00:10:32,340 And in a place like Oxford, that's even a complicated question. You know, the town and gown question in Oxford, who is your public? 88 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:38,070 Is your public, the university public or is your public, the Oxford and Oxfordshire public right? 89 00:10:38,070 --> 00:10:43,920 Is your public or British public? Or is your public actually a global public as well? 90 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:48,910 And within that, you know, communities of origin and source communities? 91 00:10:48,910 --> 00:10:54,150 Right. And the truth is, it's all of those. Right. 92 00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:59,910 One of the things that's sort of clear to me in these mission statements is that 93 00:10:59,910 --> 00:11:05,670 the Pitt Rivers Museum is seeking to reach beyond being a university museum, 94 00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:12,360 or maybe more aptly to understand that a university museum is actually a public museum. 95 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,470 That's that's the biggest sort of shift I see in these. Do you hit the nail on the head with that? 96 00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:19,980 I think because we've been having a lot of trouble, particularly with. 97 00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:24,930 There are so many different semantic shifts that could occur in these mission statements because you have, 98 00:11:24,930 --> 00:11:31,320 of course, your Oxford public with its own specific social shifts and then you have your British public. 99 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,380 But of course, you have a lot of Diaspora communities in Britain as well. 100 00:11:34,380 --> 00:11:43,380 And we were mainly thinking, how exactly is it possible for the museum to express in its mission statement that it not only is seeking to decolonise, 101 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:51,630 which means prioritising communities that it might not necessarily have before, but also to make it an equal museum for everybody. 102 00:11:51,630 --> 00:11:57,960 And how to say that this museum is for everybody and really what is just three or four short sentences? 103 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:04,170 Absolutely. And I've actually been talking with Alice Stevenson, who's a professor of museum studies, 104 00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:08,370 and Alice and I were post-docs together at the Kent Rivers Museum. That's where we met. 105 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:13,380 And we've actually been really interested lately in this tension between the the 106 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:18,510 critical and decolonial critique of the Universal Museum or the Encyclopaedia Museum. 107 00:12:18,510 --> 00:12:26,730 And yet when we think about the language around accessibility, universal design is a really positive thing. 108 00:12:26,730 --> 00:12:33,780 And so there's, you know, universal as a term is used both very negatively and very positively, 109 00:12:33,780 --> 00:12:38,010 both in terms of the needed change in museum and in society. 110 00:12:38,010 --> 00:12:41,310 And so we're trying to think through, you know, 111 00:12:41,310 --> 00:12:50,320 what does that word universal mean and in what context and how do we imagine it and use it the way that I've looked at it through my research sort, 112 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,380 my master's is the encyclopaedia or universal having that kind of want of a better phrase, 113 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:59,070 a dirty word connotation, and you don't want to put it onto something like that. 114 00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:02,640 And if you immediately if you put that and suddenly have a mission statement or 115 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,540 in a policy document that it's just going to ring alarm bells in someone's head, 116 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:13,140 but then how do you kind of remove it from the meaning that is kind of maybe predisposed to a conundrum? 117 00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:17,940 Yeah, I suspect it's one of the reasons why they're using global rather than universal. 118 00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:24,210 One of the interesting things I think in the new mission statement is that anthropology is no longer present. 119 00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:32,970 And so the museum is almost decoupling itself from anthropology, which is which is an interesting strategy to take. 120 00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:38,010 I don't I don't have an opinion of whether that's good or bad. I think it just sort of is. 121 00:13:38,010 --> 00:13:45,210 And it might be that anthropology is also too unfamiliar a word for most publics, right? 122 00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:54,150 Or it's a word like universal that has very negative connotations for important publics, for source community publics, for example. 123 00:13:54,150 --> 00:14:04,150 And so it may be one of the reasons why we don't see sort of anthropology, in particular archaeology in particular in the new statement. 124 00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:14,250 So instead, it thinks about cross-disciplinary study, which opens up that possibility for indigenous studies, area studies, 125 00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:21,870 Southeast Asian studies, for example, and to come in and inform in dialogue with anthropology and archaeology. 126 00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:28,560 Perhaps, you know, photography, art history, those sorts of disciplinary approaches as well. 127 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:36,630 We had a lot of conversations with Miranda, as well as a couple of other people at the rivers about sort of policy and practise. 128 00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:43,530 So the policy at the moment is not and not exactly aligned with their practise or in fact, at all. 129 00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:48,990 If we're going off of what both of the mission statement in the collection's development policy and the CDP 130 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:56,460 as a whole says so their practise might be more in line with their vision statement or their strategic plan, 131 00:14:56,460 --> 00:14:58,420 but it's not necessarily in line with their collection. 132 00:14:58,420 --> 00:15:06,360 So in policy and I learnt from Dr. Dallas that that a strategic plan is something that's very well subject to change every five years. 133 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,970 So what do you think is the most important thing to change if a museum is seeking to decolonise, should it be practised? 134 00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:17,400 Follows policy or should it be policy, follows practise or is both OK? 135 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:24,210 Well, I think both need to happen. I am far more invested in practise than policy. 136 00:15:24,210 --> 00:15:30,330 Now, having said that, if you are the kind of institution that puts your policies all over your website, 137 00:15:30,330 --> 00:15:35,280 then that becomes a public facing expression of your values and your work ethic, 138 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,350 and people will look at those and and assess you based on those things. 139 00:15:40,350 --> 00:15:52,680 So policy is not unimportant, and policy is sometimes the thing we turn to when we have an unusual circumstance or an unforeseen event. 140 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:58,970 Or decision making moment or what not? That's where your policy comes into play. 141 00:15:58,970 --> 00:16:08,760 But it is the case that strategic planning and policy and practise are always in a state of continual revision and reiteration. 142 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:17,730 And they should be informing each other five years in terms of renewing a collections policy is actually quite quick. 143 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:21,540 Lots of institutions, smaller institutions, for example, 144 00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:30,930 might not have the labour power to do it every five years to do it thoroughly and with real sort of thoughtful intention. 145 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:38,220 So five years in my mind is actually quite sensible in terms of the workload and 146 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:44,490 adjusting and getting the new policy up and running and getting everyone to adapt to it. 147 00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:48,570 If you if you were to change your policy too often, people would never know what it is. 148 00:16:48,570 --> 00:16:52,800 Right? It would be too much in flux. And in that sense, it would. 149 00:16:52,800 --> 00:17:01,200 And it could potentially sort of no longer be a unifying tool, 150 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:07,200 but actually be a sort of a confusing tool, and it would take too much of your time and practises. 151 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,730 Oftentimes, we put things in practises because it's easier to change practises, right? 152 00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:18,150 If you put it in a policy document, this policy, it has to go to the visitors, to the governing body for it to change. 153 00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:22,200 Practises usually do not need to go to a governing body in terms of changing. 154 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:31,680 It's a far more local document and we can adapt it more readily and we can, you know, we can do it without higher level interference, in a sense. 155 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:43,650 So practise, I think, is critical and. But I, you know, I do think they are reciprocally informing they they should be working in tandem. 156 00:17:43,650 --> 00:17:52,650 And really, you know, the strategic plan or the vision statement and policy and practise should all be working in concert. 157 00:17:52,650 --> 00:17:57,750 You know, it is interesting to me that the mission statement was updated in 2017 by the collections. 158 00:17:57,750 --> 00:18:05,910 Policy isn't. And, you know, sometimes when you have a throwaway clause like, you know, the policy will reflect the, 159 00:18:05,910 --> 00:18:13,030 you know, the museum's mission statement, see whatever document that sort of cross-referencing. 160 00:18:13,030 --> 00:18:16,600 That can also make a policy weak because nothing is actually in it. 161 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:28,020 And right, you've just outsourced all of the important bits. But I think a five year sort of review and. 162 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:38,040 And thinking about. What are the pressing issues, what is on the horizon, what are people foreseeing? 163 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,090 I think is reasonable. 164 00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:47,160 You know, one of the things I notice is that the collections development policy as well is closely tied to the Museums Association, 165 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,790 right, and their code of Ethics and their accreditation process. 166 00:18:50,790 --> 00:19:00,660 And so we also when we're writing policy or when we're thinking about policy, we are also looking at those external bodies as well, right? 167 00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:06,120 And one of the challenges with the icon re definition for a lot of museums was 168 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,710 that all of their accreditation policies were linked to the icon definition. 169 00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:21,360 And so when the icon definition changed, it would actually mean that there was a whole sort of a flow of work that would need to follow. 170 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:29,790 Entire countries and museum associations would need to redo their own tools because they build on icon. 171 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:38,730 So there's always a sort of a domino effect of this work. But long story short, I think practise is actually where it's at. 172 00:19:38,730 --> 00:19:47,300 Yeah, I think this is something that Stephanie come up through. Our conversations are research as well as like back and mentioned, 173 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:56,920 we kind of had a workshop with some of the staff where we had this conversation around practise and policy and implementing it and. 174 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,840 A lot of the discussions have been. 175 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,250 You know, the policy itself needs to meet accreditation standards, 176 00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:15,380 but the accreditation standards are set by this person and this is put out by this and then it just goes on and on and on and I guess. 177 00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:21,640 What do you think can have on your experience? Should the first step be? 178 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:30,780 I mean, you said kind of practise its most important bit. If everyone's out saying to everyone else in terms of the policy side, then you know, 179 00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:38,760 if you would go into an organisation and say, OK, you need to implement something step one. 180 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:44,550 And if decolonial practise, what would what would that first thing be, really? 181 00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:53,550 I think there's two step ones and one is internal to the museum and one is specific to sort of museum associations. 182 00:20:53,550 --> 00:21:02,350 So step one in terms of museum associations is a real significant need to revisit accreditation. 183 00:21:02,350 --> 00:21:12,530 And we can talk about that more if you want. But I think there's a huge need to reconfigure accreditation a. 184 00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:19,340 The second sort of first step, I guess the internal first step, I think, is to start with a question of values. 185 00:21:19,340 --> 00:21:29,690 And I think this is especially critical when we talk about collections work because so often collections work is understood as rote, 186 00:21:29,690 --> 00:21:36,560 best practise universal that anyone can do it and it's just a matter of following instructions. 187 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:42,080 And I don't think that's taken us to a particularly good place. 188 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:53,090 Pitt Rivers Museum, I think, is an institution that has put significant intellectual time and energy into collections work, 189 00:21:53,090 --> 00:22:00,710 and they have really thought about the values behind collections for the ethics of collections work, 190 00:22:00,710 --> 00:22:05,600 how to re-imagine collections, work and all, 191 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:11,160 while still having to grapple with the very realities of what it is to maintain a music museum collection. 192 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,680 Right. The documentation backlog has been going on. 193 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,040 I don't know what like for 15 years now, at least, right? 194 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,360 Just sort of like chugging along as this thing that really needs to happen. 195 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:35,000 That's the reality and the scale of museum work and change and change in a museum and fulfilment of a basic museum functions. 196 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:49,400 But, you know, I think there's been really amazing collections, work being done and time spent and energy put into the value of collections, work and. 197 00:22:49,400 --> 00:23:02,590 I think institutions need to be able to be more creative and open in terms of what their priorities are for collections work. 198 00:23:02,590 --> 00:23:05,840 And I think there have to be multiple options. 199 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:14,510 So one of the things in the collections policy at the Pitt Rivers Museum that is apparent and that you yourselves picked up on, 200 00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:19,640 is this and two notions of preservation and documentation? 201 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:32,550 Really good documentation. Really good documentation, sounds nerdy and maybe doesn't sound like an anti-colonial or a colonial practise, but it is. 202 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:42,360 So many museum collections are so under documented or poorly documented, superficially documented that actually no one can find their stuff. 203 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:47,970 And if you can't find your stuff, you can't ask for it back. And if you can't find your stuff, you can't go and visit it. 204 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:52,950 And if you can't find your stuff, you can't correct the historical record, right? 205 00:23:52,950 --> 00:24:04,020 So well documented collections, even if at times the leg is like the terms are out of date, a little unpopular, probably even racist in some cases, 206 00:24:04,020 --> 00:24:18,630 having the sort of the courage to put your documentation out into the public and also spending time to make fulsome records means that. 207 00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:24,060 People can reconnect with their items more directly. 208 00:24:24,060 --> 00:24:27,150 They can find them more easily, 209 00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:34,790 and then we know that when people come and visit with their material belongings with their ancestral belongings, the records are secondary. 210 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:41,730 Right. Their first engagement is with their ancestors, who are right there in front of them and to touch them and hold them and be with them again. 211 00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:45,300 And then the second instance is, and what does the record say? Right. 212 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:53,070 But there's there's they can have that immediate engagement because they can find their belongings to start. 213 00:24:53,070 --> 00:25:01,230 You know, the question around preservation is one that I think museums are starting to reconsider a little bit more broadly. 214 00:25:01,230 --> 00:25:10,020 We're starting to think about, you know, natural life cycles of objects and the pressures of, you know, long term storage and and and, 215 00:25:10,020 --> 00:25:20,070 you know, thinking around the difference between preservation and posterity and people claiming that posterity is now. 216 00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:26,280 Bob James, you know, Jennifer Shannon making an argument that it's not about one hundred years from now. 217 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,200 It's about the moment, the present moment. Right. So people are starting to rethink that. 218 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:42,230 And so I would like to see. Accreditation, change and sort of museums have the courage and bravery and ability to identify different priorities. 219 00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:52,730 Maybe it's creative engagement and creative cultural production. Maybe it's about, you know, posterity being now, not 100 years from now. 220 00:25:52,730 --> 00:25:55,760 Or maybe it's even a shorter window. This generation 20 years. 221 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,680 We're going to focus on are we're going to focus on youth engagement and whatever youth want to do with the collection. 222 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:07,070 Fine. We'll let him do that, right? And maybe it's about Preservation Long-Term, and that's OK. 223 00:26:07,070 --> 00:26:11,420 And maybe it is about really good documentation and and that's OK. 224 00:26:11,420 --> 00:26:18,290 But like, let's open the number of possibilities that are allowable. 225 00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:23,800 I think that would get us closer to a decolonial practise. 226 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,230 Oh, no, I was just going to briefly comment on. 227 00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:39,030 The documentation in the records I know from my own attempts at looking for specific objects in certain collections catalogues online, 228 00:26:39,030 --> 00:26:47,060 it's quite difficult and a lot of them looking at it, it. 229 00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:55,490 The idea of freely exploring so going in and being led from page to page to page page or okay, 230 00:26:55,490 --> 00:27:01,130 I have an accession number and I can only find that specific object if I have the accession number and how different 231 00:27:01,130 --> 00:27:09,260 museums present that and documentation and their websites and updating that as part of that is vital to make it accessible. 232 00:27:09,260 --> 00:27:17,770 And that was just a comment on that. Yeah, go. I mean, one of the things we're doing right now with the Great Lakes Research Alliance, 233 00:27:17,770 --> 00:27:25,240 we have our own database that digitally reunites Great Lakes material heritage that is dispersed globally. 234 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:33,250 The Pitt Rivers is a partner and the Great Lakes records are part of that database and we're working towards a public platform. 235 00:27:33,250 --> 00:27:37,910 So currently it's password protected and it's relatively easy to be a member of grass. 236 00:27:37,910 --> 00:27:45,010 But nonetheless, you become a member and you get access and we're looking to have a public platform. 237 00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:50,590 Our first public is indigenous artists and indigenous youth. 238 00:27:50,590 --> 00:27:57,250 And then our second public would be indigenous language learners and teachers and teachers in indigenous schools. 239 00:27:57,250 --> 00:28:03,100 And then our third public is sort of a broader Canadian public. So we have this question around publics as well. 240 00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:09,280 And we need a broader Canadian public to change right to change their understanding of history of Canada. 241 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:19,090 So they're not unimportant. But we are looking to take an approach where when people are online and in our 242 00:28:19,090 --> 00:28:27,370 database and when they encounter a heritage item or an ancestral belonging, 243 00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:35,470 that it is described for them in a way that you would want your relatives to be described, right? 244 00:28:35,470 --> 00:28:41,380 So right now, often when you encounter a museum object online, it's described in a very sort of scientific way. 245 00:28:41,380 --> 00:28:48,280 And there's really good reasons for all of those fields and the format of it, and it's usually based on museum needs. 246 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,710 And I understand that because it's for the museum in large part, 247 00:28:53,710 --> 00:29:01,750 but we're trying to rethink it a little bit just in terms of when people meet their ancestral belonging online. 248 00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:08,770 Do they also feel like they're reading about or relative not reading about a museum artefact? 249 00:29:08,770 --> 00:29:13,660 To be honest, the shift isn't huge. It's actually fairly small, 250 00:29:13,660 --> 00:29:18,550 but it's really a shift in terms of just value and how you approach the writing 251 00:29:18,550 --> 00:29:22,600 and the description and the ordering of information and the prioritising. 252 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,360 And even, you know, we're looking at how do you bundle information in particular ways. 253 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,760 And so that and. So that's not a strange thing. 254 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:40,790 Yeah, I think one of the things that so I was speaking to some of the guests who are going to appear in later 255 00:29:40,790 --> 00:29:46,340 episodes talking about the kind of clinical nature of some of the language in the policy as well. 256 00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:53,210 And that obviously is a policy is going to be clinical because that is what is required of the policy. 257 00:29:53,210 --> 00:29:55,970 But specifically talking about Section 15, 258 00:29:55,970 --> 00:30:04,280 which talks about the disposal of human remains and the language surrounding the disposal of human remains sounds very clinical. 259 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,790 And I think Alexis actually said that it sounds like you're taking out the rubbish, you know, 260 00:30:07,790 --> 00:30:15,170 is really what you're talking about and the emotional connexion and the empathy that needs to be involved in that. 261 00:30:15,170 --> 00:30:17,600 Yes, it is a policy and that comes alongside it, 262 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:28,350 but it doesn't negate the fact that you can also include just a level of awareness that if what you're dealing with in what you're discussing. 263 00:30:28,350 --> 00:30:33,060 We've talked quite a bit about sort of emotional repatriation as well, 264 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:38,280 and I'm glad that you both brought that up because I think that it's so interesting that these museums were kind of boring, 265 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,610 especially the Pitt Rivers Museum in this time of the Enlightenment, 266 00:30:41,610 --> 00:30:48,030 where sort of clinical educational material and empirical thought was very valued. 267 00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:52,560 And not that that's a bad thing, but I think in a lot of ways museums do kind of reproduce that. 268 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,030 So it's so interesting to sort of bring emotions back into the policy. 269 00:30:57,030 --> 00:31:05,790 And there was a really I think you were actually there, Kara at the Emotions of Removal webinar and sort of bringing emotions back into the museum. 270 00:31:05,790 --> 00:31:10,530 And I don't I don't know if they have a place in policy, 271 00:31:10,530 --> 00:31:15,870 but I would certainly be very interested to see a sort of more care and more love sort of brought back 272 00:31:15,870 --> 00:31:22,470 into the Pitt Rivers CDP so that emotions are kind of where we make a space for them in the museum. 273 00:31:22,470 --> 00:31:32,730 And I just, I think that idea of care as a preservation. Yeah, it does take away the clinical aspect of it because you are caring for something. 274 00:31:32,730 --> 00:31:36,770 And it's it adds the emotional element. Yeah. 275 00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:44,310 You know, care is a really interesting sort of concept. And, you know, when we think about it academically or even if we're going to, you know, 276 00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:51,000 if we're thinking about decolonisation or anti-colonial practise, you know, there's a feminist ethics of care and scholarship. 277 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:58,900 There is an indigenous ethics of care and scholarship. And you know, and even in terms of, you know, feminist ethics of care, 278 00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:03,720 these are often coming from communities of African-American and black female scholars. 279 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,220 And, you know, indigenous scholars. We have, you know, kitchen table methodologies. 280 00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:16,020 And so it is a different approach to knowledge sharing. 281 00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:23,730 Right? You know, if I think about Pitt Rivers mission statement to inspire and share knowledge, right? 282 00:32:23,730 --> 00:32:31,920 What is it if if that sharing of knowledge comes through that feminist ethic of care and that sense of knowledge sharing? 283 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:40,440 And what what does that look like? And do you have to be specific and explicit that you're having a feminist ethic of care? 284 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:47,040 Maybe, maybe it'd be great to have that in there? Or is that a thing that you actually just do in your practise? 285 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:52,320 Right. And what does it mean to bring that ethic of care into your practise? 286 00:32:52,320 --> 00:33:00,270 And I'm really quite interested in the Manchester Museum and which has a very strong ethic of health and wellbeing, 287 00:33:00,270 --> 00:33:08,010 and that comes from the director and then, you know, funnels through the entire museum and that's really leading vision there. 288 00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:14,160 I've also been working in terms of ethics of collections, care and thinking about healthy ageing, 289 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:25,230 as described by the World Health Organisation and how the descriptions for healthy ageing in humans can be adapted and thought about in terms of 290 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:36,600 care of museum artefacts and and the possibilities for that to give us a different ethics of care that understands ageing as normal as productive. 291 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,980 That that that ageing is not inherently negative, 292 00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:49,140 but there's a lot of benefits to ageing individuals and that and that there is value in ageing individuals. 293 00:33:49,140 --> 00:33:54,990 And so, yeah, so that's, you know, an ethic of care and exploring at the moment. 294 00:33:54,990 --> 00:34:02,190 We'd love to get sort of your final thoughts on how changing the policy can sort of relate to the Labelling Matters project. 295 00:34:02,190 --> 00:34:08,370 And we know that there's a big movement in the Pitt rivers right now to sort of re-examine language. 296 00:34:08,370 --> 00:34:11,820 And that's it's fantastic that they're focussing on that. 297 00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:15,480 But I think also the next step of the project is going to be focussing on, you know, 298 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:21,120 examining sort of the emotions of these language and examining these languages and examining all of the 299 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:26,280 sorts of different things that can come together to create a museum impression instead of simply words. 300 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,770 So how do you think that the policy can sort of be changed to reflect this vast 301 00:34:31,770 --> 00:34:36,940 global sort of movement that we're finding and where museums just need to change? 302 00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:46,740 Oh, that's an interesting question. You know, there is that academic. 303 00:34:46,740 --> 00:34:57,660 Difference between emotion and affect as well that affects being perhaps a little bit more collective, maybe affect being a little bit more akin to, 304 00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:05,580 say, collective memory and emotion being a little bit maybe more akin to individual or personal memory. 305 00:35:05,580 --> 00:35:19,610 You know, it's an interesting thing. Emotion, emotion is not going to be the single answer, either, because if we've learnt anything in the last year, 306 00:35:19,610 --> 00:35:31,930 it is that the burden of emotional labour is also not experienced equally and so. 307 00:35:31,930 --> 00:35:48,960 We will need to think about it seriously, what it is when we ask both our staff and our publics to do that emotional work, and it's not to say that. 308 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:55,040 People don't need to do to work, whether their staff or publics. But also just to think about. 309 00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:06,500 What is it if the museum expects it or demands it or or of who is it asking, you know, that emotional work to be done? 310 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:17,150 So I don't, I don't. It's again, it's not to say that the emotional component of museum work is not essential, but it's very complicated. 311 00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:23,810 And one of the things that I learnt being in the UK coming from Canada and going to the UK is 312 00:36:23,810 --> 00:36:34,290 that there is also a need to take seriously the emotional labour of unlearning imperialism and. 313 00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:45,240 You know, most museum folks get into the business of museums because they have a trust that museums can be benevolent 314 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:50,850 places or they come from that understanding that a museum is a good place during their professional careers, 315 00:36:50,850 --> 00:36:55,170 they often struggle with the ways that it's not a good place where it does create harm. 316 00:36:55,170 --> 00:36:56,430 And that's difficult. 317 00:36:56,430 --> 00:37:06,150 That's a difficult sort of professional identity to switch to really sort of embrace and internalise and then still to come out the other side. 318 00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:13,410 Right. The museum still exists, and you could take the position to close them all down. 319 00:37:13,410 --> 00:37:15,460 That's not a position I'm interested in taking. 320 00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:26,190 I think there is huge value in museums, and I love the idea of people learning about humanity through material culture. 321 00:37:26,190 --> 00:37:36,400 That's something that I share quite deeply. And I think museums are amazing places for that to happen and. 322 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:45,910 But yeah, you know, in the UK, this process of unlearning imperialism is going to be difficult and slow and and emotionally draining. 323 00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:54,730 And it's not to say that people get, you know, but that we excuse people from that process, right as part of anti-colonial and anti-racist practise. 324 00:37:54,730 --> 00:38:00,100 But it's just also that maybe there needs to be some empathy for how long that takes. 325 00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,940 Scholars are really quick to judge the public, right? 326 00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:06,280 They don't have the right language. They're not woke enough. 327 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:12,550 They, you know, they haven't spent three years studying anti-colonial anti-colonial theory, 328 00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:18,820 critical race theory for 20 years, and we can in the academy, we can be too dismissive of the public. 329 00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:26,170 And so I think one of the one of the challenges for museums and one of the opportunities in the museum is 330 00:38:26,170 --> 00:38:33,040 that we actually get to go out and meet the public where they're at and think about what they're what, 331 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:38,140 they're obstacles and barriers to learning and and thinking anew. 332 00:38:38,140 --> 00:38:48,720 And and I think that's really the sort of the amazing thing that can come through the labels matter projects right when you start to. 333 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:54,450 Re articulate a way of understanding for a public in a way that they don't shut down. 334 00:38:54,450 --> 00:39:04,260 But where they actually can can process it and come back to it and start to pick up that vocabulary and internalise it in their own self. 335 00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:11,000 I think that'll be amazing. Yeah, yeah, I think that's definitely true. 336 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:18,420 I mean, obviously that being in in the U.K., so having Bozkir and. 337 00:39:18,420 --> 00:39:24,940 I think it is a lot of addressing to be done in a lot of. 338 00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:32,400 Kind of hierarchical blame as well as part of that and. 339 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:40,170 But also, it is rewarding to, you know, to pursue that, to have that education, to educate yourself and be part of it. 340 00:39:40,170 --> 00:39:51,270 And yeah, it's an interesting time to be getting into the profession, which I think you make a move hopefully appreciate. 341 00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:57,210 This is like, you know, speak to some people and they say, Don't do it, you'll go crazy. 342 00:39:57,210 --> 00:40:03,870 And then some people who say, do it because you might get crazy, but at the end of the day, like it's gratifying and rewarding. 343 00:40:03,870 --> 00:40:10,100 And you know, it's through people making that work happen that. 344 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:16,770 I am now in the possession of kind of carrying on the torch the next step, so it's. 345 00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:24,390 It's definitely very interesting. It's an amazing place to intervene because you are so close to the public and families and kids and adults, 346 00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:30,090 and like the whole spectrum and docents and volunteers and like, there's you know, on the one level, 347 00:40:30,090 --> 00:40:36,750 I think because museums are not always prioritised in terms of a capitalist economy, 348 00:40:36,750 --> 00:40:46,440 we sort of fly under the radar and maybe are undervalued in terms of what we can do and the change we can create. 349 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,640 And sometimes I sort of depend on if I'm being cynical or optimistic. 350 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,830 You know, I sort of fluctuate between what have you seen, what change in the museum means? 351 00:40:55,830 --> 00:41:03,750 But I actually think they they are important sites and they if we do change museums and we can demonstrate that change is possible, right? 352 00:41:03,750 --> 00:41:09,510 We don't have to wait for other people to do things first. We can we can lead if we want, if we choose. 353 00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:16,170 And and and so, so come into the museum world and then lead the change. 354 00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:21,720 That is an absolutely fantastic and very hopeful place to sort of end our conversation. 355 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:24,660 Thank you so much for speaking with us and for giving us words. 356 00:41:24,660 --> 00:41:32,850 Not only of change needs to happen, but also change possible and we can do it if we change all of these policies and commit to practise. 357 00:41:32,850 --> 00:41:37,140 And I absolutely love that. It was lovely to meet you. Well, thanks so much for having me. 358 00:41:37,140 --> 00:41:49,770 I really appreciate the invitation and I'm glad to meet you both. That was the Rivers Museum's Matters of Policy podcast produced by Betsy Woodhouse, 359 00:41:49,770 --> 00:41:57,000 yet bomb maker man Alexis Barriere and Vocal Sounds Music by Jack Forcett. 360 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:09,564 Voiceover by Stephen. Not a special thank you to Muranga Thompson offline as the knowledge exchange.