1
00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:11,340


2
00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:21,690
Welcome to the Rivers Museums. Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy,

3
00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:33,060
speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy.

4
00:00:33,060 --> 00:00:37,380
I am, yep. And today I joined Betty to talk to Dr. Laura from Bokova.

5
00:00:37,380 --> 00:00:44,940
Hi, I'm Betsy. Lara is the director of the Pitt Rivers Museum and the principal investigator of the Labelling Matters Project.

6
00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:49,050
Lara's current research interests include repatriation and redress,

7
00:00:49,050 --> 00:00:55,200
with a focus on the importance of collaboration, inclusivity and reflective enquiry.

8
00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,480
OK. Welcome. It's an absolute honour to have you on our medRxiv policy podcast.

9
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:06,360
You say it's an honour to have me on the podcast, but it's actually an honour for me to be talking to you guys,

10
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:13,920
and I think we're really pleased with the work that you're doing. It's also brought me to question whether we need to have all those old documents

11
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:20,190
online if we can just discuss a little bit about the collection's development policy.

12
00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:26,190
So if you could tell us a little bit about its history and how it's used in the museum?

13
00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:29,280
Yeah. So I can be quite brief about the history. I don't know.

14
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:38,940
I don't know how it was formed, and I do know how similar documents that I was very, you know, leading on myself have been shaped.

15
00:01:38,940 --> 00:01:40,440
But I don't know about this document,

16
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:48,000
but I do know that Julianne Nicholson played a really important role in sort of bringing together all the different elements of the document.

17
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,340
The role today is, I think, quite minimal to a certain degree.

18
00:01:53,340 --> 00:02:02,760
I think that it doesn't really reflect or practise and or our philosophy as much anymore, but obviously it remains the document that stands.

19
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:09,240
One of the things that we actually have started recently is to go into the process of rewriting the policies.

20
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,420
There's a number of policies, there's an access policy,

21
00:02:12,420 --> 00:02:17,640
there's an environmental sustainability policy, there's an equity, diversity and inclusion policy.

22
00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:25,590
There's a return policy. And so little by little, we've been, you know, sort of starting with different policies that we'll be writing.

23
00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:31,410
The collection development policy is one that we are rewriting in the next couple of months

24
00:02:31,410 --> 00:02:35,310
is when it needs to be rewritten because we're going to go for accreditation again.

25
00:02:35,310 --> 00:02:41,910
We would have probably done that a year ago or a year and a half ago already because I committed to what we were up fragmentation again.

26
00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:50,430
But that was all stalled because of COVID. But I do want to go back to what these documents are for museums and what they can be, I suppose.

27
00:02:50,430 --> 00:02:54,990
So I worked in the Netherlands sort of first at the National Museum of Ethnology,

28
00:02:54,990 --> 00:03:00,150
where we had a collections development policy and from 2000 till 2012 or so.

29
00:03:00,150 --> 00:03:05,070
And in 2012, we had a big merger with the Tropper Museum and with the Africa Museum,

30
00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:10,620
which is a museum in the east of of the Netherlands and a museum in Amsterdam and then a museum in LED.

31
00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:18,630
And we merged. And it was the moment that we obviously were also merging our collections in and took a fresh look again at what actually this,

32
00:03:18,630 --> 00:03:22,860
you know, these collection development policies, what they could be, what they should be.

33
00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:26,910
We needed to rethink ourselves and reinvent ourselves more or less.

34
00:03:26,910 --> 00:03:32,760
And also think about, you know, what is it that we want to do in the future around collecting acquisitions?

35
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:39,540
And we very strongly decided to sort of go back to really critically looking at what

36
00:03:39,540 --> 00:03:43,560
the documents that we have in the practises that we had and the policy that we had.

37
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,140
I let that process at the time, which was, I think,

38
00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:53,700
between 2013 until 2015 or so that we worked on that and it took two years, lots of conversations across different sections.

39
00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:59,220
And obviously, because we all came from different institutions, we were all questioning each other's practises.

40
00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:08,940
There was also a bit of animosity because, you know, each considered each other, either too old fashioned or too sort of hip or whatever.

41
00:04:08,940 --> 00:04:16,590
Actually, the merger process was a really useful process because it brought together these different ways of working different thoughts.

42
00:04:16,590 --> 00:04:20,850
And then we have wonderfully useful conversations actually across.

43
00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:27,060
And at the time, what we decided to do is to not use the model that the Dutch usually used for this.

44
00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:33,540
But we used a model which was an Australian model, which was sort of really sort of focussed on significance of collections.

45
00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:36,840
So we did a complete relooking at the whole collections.

46
00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:43,560
We describe the whole collections differently and then had lots of conversations around what should we still be acquiring?

47
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,190
What should we still be acquiring actively and passively?

48
00:04:47,190 --> 00:04:52,770
Because I think a lot of collections coming through passive collecting is what is sort of one could call it,

49
00:04:52,770 --> 00:04:56,400
that's how we called it, where it's just somebody who approaches you and says,

50
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:57,630
you know, like yesterday,

51
00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:06,060
I got a message from somewhere in the Netherlands saying the museum has been named as somebody who is going to be left a legacy.

52
00:05:06,060 --> 00:05:09,040
These objects are yours now. And I think in the.

53
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:18,700
Museums would decide, OK, so we need to take this in and, you know, thankfully accept or do we actually say this is not really any longer?

54
00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:24,250
It doesn't fit with our purpose or it doesn't fit with the sort of materials that we would be collecting.

55
00:05:24,250 --> 00:05:27,700
And so one of the things that you then need to decide is what do you do with those passive

56
00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:31,960
collections that you're actually not going to bring in to your collections anymore?

57
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,910
Do you, for example, go to communities of origin? Do you go to countries of origin?

58
00:05:36,910 --> 00:05:44,110
Do if, for example, if, well, what I try to do in the Netherlands at the time was around pre-colonial material because

59
00:05:44,110 --> 00:05:49,450
that's my sort of field of expertise personally was to go to the embassies and say,

60
00:05:49,450 --> 00:05:55,120
Look, we've been offered these collections. We're not going to accept them, but they are from, you know, they were illegally taken.

61
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,920
They are from the archaeological record.

62
00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:04,710
Is this something that you would want to take up with your Institute of Instituto de Trower and then do you want to discuss it with them,

63
00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:12,070
whether they want it back? So that's the sort of possible, yes, sort of way forward that one could find.

64
00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:17,170
And then we have really crucial conversations, I think, around acquisitions.

65
00:06:17,170 --> 00:06:26,140
And that's what I hope we are now also at the Pitt Rivers Museum. Obviously, there's only that much stuff is much more reduced than what, you know,

66
00:06:26,140 --> 00:06:31,690
the stuff that we had in the Netherlands, where we had 175 people working in the museums here.

67
00:06:31,690 --> 00:06:38,620
It's a small group of staff, about 50 people of which, you know, only few are curatorial.

68
00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:43,480
But luckily, I think which is quite nice in a bit of a museum.

69
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,970
There is a tendency to make sure that we are bringing in more not only curatorial staff.

70
00:06:48,970 --> 00:06:54,250
I think in the Netherlands it was very much a curatorial decision what was going to be collected.

71
00:06:54,250 --> 00:06:58,660
I think here because of the handling collection and you know, we can debate about,

72
00:06:58,660 --> 00:07:01,930
you know, the sort of way it should be called the handling collection. Yes or no.

73
00:07:01,930 --> 00:07:06,220
But because of the handling collection and also because of the work with communities,

74
00:07:06,220 --> 00:07:12,040
we're sort of starting to see more of a sort of joined up working with, you know, research.

75
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:18,820
Also, the fact that we are a university museum, which was not the case for the museums I worked in in the Netherlands, which were national museums.

76
00:07:18,820 --> 00:07:26,480
The fact that we were University Museum makes it so that we will be working more closely with research, for example.

77
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:33,550
So I think these documents give us these moments where much like when we're sort of writing new strategies,

78
00:07:33,550 --> 00:07:37,030
which are usually also sort of for a couple of years,

79
00:07:37,030 --> 00:07:46,000
they give us these moments that we can reflect, sit together, discuss and then make, you know, just sort of.

80
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,330
There's also a bit of boring practise of writing policy documents. At least I find it quite stimulating.

81
00:07:52,330 --> 00:07:58,270
I guess it's there's a sort of limited ness to what a policy can do.

82
00:07:58,270 --> 00:08:02,830
It doesn't feel like a document that is very creative or imaginative, necessarily.

83
00:08:02,830 --> 00:08:09,250
The moment when we write these policies, which aren't always sort of the most exciting moments,

84
00:08:09,250 --> 00:08:16,330
but I think the writing itself of policy can be quite sort of tedious and and restricted.

85
00:08:16,330 --> 00:08:22,810
But the moments that we are deciding on policy do give us the time to reflect and to have conversations

86
00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:28,030
that actually can be quite important for an institution to make sure that we're all on the same page.

87
00:08:28,030 --> 00:08:33,310
And I think unlike last time when I came in and we were writing the collections development

88
00:08:33,310 --> 00:08:38,230
policy and all of the accreditation documents had just been sent off to accreditation.

89
00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:41,770
We then started the strategy work, which took about a year.

90
00:08:41,770 --> 00:08:47,740
Now we are going to be writing our new strategy because this strategy is up until 2022.

91
00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:51,970
But we're also going to make sure that the new work that we've been doing and

92
00:08:51,970 --> 00:08:56,650
everything that's obviously in sort of more recent programming based on publications,

93
00:08:56,650 --> 00:09:02,350
recent exhibitions that is all much more accurate, a reflection of what we are doing and thinking.

94
00:09:02,350 --> 00:09:11,200
And and I suppose it's an interesting reflection of our trajectory of the process that we've been on in the past couple of years.

95
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,960
And it's really crucial that we are critically reflecting on why do we have these documents?

96
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,210
Who do we write them for? Who should be involved in writing them?

97
00:09:21,210 --> 00:09:24,910
And I think that these were this will be a really useful process,

98
00:09:24,910 --> 00:09:30,940
and I'm really keen to see the development and to be inspired also of where can we take it next?

99
00:09:30,940 --> 00:09:38,680
Yeah, I definitely think something that's come up is that disjointed ness between the strategic plan and the policy,

100
00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:41,590
obviously, because of the times that they were written.

101
00:09:41,590 --> 00:09:51,730
So for me, if I look at our reach and impact like, for example, over the last year we reached with the messaging that we had that was on target.

102
00:09:51,730 --> 00:10:00,400
You know, there's this analytic tools that you can use to see six point eighty three billion people, billion people, which is crazy.

103
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,930
That's potential reach. And that was about 400 press outlets or so.

104
00:10:04,930 --> 00:10:08,630
So I think that was very much on message. That was the sort of.

105
00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:12,800
Where we are saying we no longer want to be, you know, sort of an institution that is actually,

106
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,730
you know, sort of projecting stereotypes, we are respectful of indigenous communities.

107
00:10:16,730 --> 00:10:21,260
That's why we're taking off display human remains. That's why we're reaching out to communities.

108
00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:30,260
So that's one bit of the biggest reach that we have. Then we have the reach that is our museum usually is about half a million people that come in.

109
00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:33,040
I think that's where there's still quite a bit of mixed messaging.

110
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:40,310
Now, obviously, we've now put in the intervention of the labelling matters and we've put in the intervention on human remains.

111
00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:46,580
But there's still quite a bit of trouble. Some things that are sort of that people will find where it might feel quite mixed messaging,

112
00:10:46,580 --> 00:10:51,350
where it's mostly, you know, colonial collectors that are being named.

113
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:59,960
And we're still using quite old fashioned and outdated and derogatory nomenclature, both in top names and in antonyms.

114
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:06,830
And, you know, sort of that's where there's still some mixed messaging, I think not in the special exhibitions.

115
00:11:06,830 --> 00:11:11,750
That's where it's really clear we transfer low. We are working on anti-racism.

116
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:15,170
We're sort of, you know, doing a lot of work with refugees etc,

117
00:11:15,170 --> 00:11:19,400
but that's half a million normally not this year, but normally that's about half a million.

118
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:25,550
And then there's about 600000 that come to our website and those are the resources that they will find there.

119
00:11:25,550 --> 00:11:30,410
No one goes to our About US page apart from maybe a student who's been given that as a task,

120
00:11:30,410 --> 00:11:35,090
which is really crucial because they'll be the ones who are going to be critically looking at these things.

121
00:11:35,090 --> 00:11:41,780
So it's either Prince looking at our press pages, which are on message and or people who are looking at what's on or looking out,

122
00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:45,440
for example, our critical change pages or pages on human remains.

123
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:52,970
If we look up who is reading them, I think the balance is OK that we've not updated that document first.

124
00:11:52,970 --> 00:11:58,370
But there are students who are looking into that. There's people who are going to be looking out, OK, this sounds interesting.

125
00:11:58,370 --> 00:12:04,340
They're being mentioned. That's up there, sort of, you know, driving some of the changes. Let me go, look at their policies.

126
00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:11,660
They will then find policies from 2015 and early 2016, which don't reflect anything of what we've been thinking lately.

127
00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:14,900
So you're absolutely right to say that needs to change.

128
00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:23,510
The other big reach, I think that we've had recently has been with our online webinars think 15 percent of the audience is the life audience is local,

129
00:12:23,510 --> 00:12:26,690
50 percent is from the UK and just from one of them.

130
00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:32,750
We know that's about 120 towns in the UK from across the whole UK, which is quite brilliant in a sort of.

131
00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:38,630
We would never do that if if we wouldn't have had the pandemic, we would not be able to reach so many people.

132
00:12:38,630 --> 00:12:43,470
It would all be people who have the privilege of studying in Oxford or living in Oxford,

133
00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:47,270
sort of who would be able to come to those who would have the privilege to be able to travel

134
00:12:47,270 --> 00:12:53,510
for any of the rest of them are international from about 75 different countries in the world.

135
00:12:53,510 --> 00:13:02,540
So I do feel that it's clear that our messaging, we have a lot to build from and we can easily use up to now update the policy.

136
00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:06,050
I think that going forward, we need to think more carefully.

137
00:13:06,050 --> 00:13:14,930
If there is such a big switch, such a big change process, how do we make sure that we also, even if it's to say, OK,

138
00:13:14,930 --> 00:13:23,060
we've taken our policies down because they no longer reflect our current practise while we are changing, you know, sort of the policy?

139
00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:28,210
So I think that's what from your very helpful workshop, I'm all right.

140
00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:37,970
OK, great. Amazing. Yeah, I think you also mentioned already that practise doesn't always reflect policy or goes beyond policy.

141
00:13:37,970 --> 00:13:43,910
And I think it's really good to take a moment to acknowledge that the museum has done way more with respect to representation,

142
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:48,170
diversity, inclusivity than currently reflected in the document.

143
00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:50,000
And you talked about it briefly,

144
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:58,010
but could you elaborate a bit more on the recent work the museum has been doing to restore the imbalance of voices in the museum space,

145
00:13:58,010 --> 00:14:04,280
which is currently still in the document? You guys are focussing on policy and rightfully so.

146
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:12,020
I think the practise is very much what is being questioned on a daily basis where people are actually saying, Why are you still talking for us?

147
00:14:12,020 --> 00:14:19,100
I think on the one hand, there's a sort of there's a lack of imagination in ethnographic museums.

148
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:25,340
If it's only Eurocentric whiteness, that is sort of being projected out and is let in.

149
00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:27,920
And it's with the collections that we have,

150
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:36,650
which could tell millions of stories which could actually bring in so much interest in each other's different ways of being different,

151
00:14:36,650 --> 00:14:46,310
ways of knowing different ways of seeing, making coping. We would be limiting ourselves by just having to say more people talk more about

152
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:49,970
which supposed knowledge that they've sort of taken from books or whatever.

153
00:14:49,970 --> 00:14:56,300
So what we want to do is to make sure that we're no longer limiting the stories that are being told in the museum.

154
00:14:56,300 --> 00:15:00,710
And we are ensuring that actually we are making space for more stories that we are

155
00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:07,070
making space for people who've been long underrepresented to say it a bit crudely,

156
00:15:07,070 --> 00:15:08,020
maybe, but I think.

157
00:15:08,020 --> 00:15:22,270
Truly, is that it's really sort of we have to move away from supporting patriarchy by allowing for those voices to mostly be white male elite.

158
00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:29,950
I think we also would be moving away from continuing Colonial City to by only prioritising certain voices,

159
00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:34,480
those who are supposedly educated over those who have lived knowledge.

160
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:40,510
So I think that's where we're sort of looking at how can we ensure that those who are invited to speak,

161
00:15:40,510 --> 00:15:44,500
those who are invited to write, those who are invited to make.

162
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:48,160
And then also those who are going to be collecting with.

163
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:53,740
How can we make sure that that power balance, which is obviously, you know, colonialism is all about, you know, power balances.

164
00:15:53,740 --> 00:16:02,590
It is a skewed power balance where one part of humanity tries to oppress the others to extract their resources and enrich themselves.

165
00:16:02,590 --> 00:16:13,090
And it does that by ensuring that its power structures, its political power structures are imposed on those people and they're made to pay taxes.

166
00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:17,140
And that's sort of so that they can enrich their own area.

167
00:16:17,140 --> 00:16:23,680
But I think we've done quite clearly in some of our messaging is say that is a fact.

168
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,660
Sometimes when the government or elders are sort of anxious about, you know, sort of that we're erasing history.

169
00:16:28,660 --> 00:16:32,440
No, we're telling more accurate versions of history.

170
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,960
We're being more precise, we're being more honest, more truthful.

171
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:42,250
So I think that is really where I just disagree with anything of what we are doing is erasing anything.

172
00:16:42,250 --> 00:16:50,470
But I'm actually saying, no, we're being more truthful, more honest, and we're giving more accurate reflections of where our disciplines are today.

173
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:58,630
Both, you know, history, archaeology, anthropology. I mean, I'm not saying that any of those disciplines have sort of achieved any d'école analogy,

174
00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:04,240
but there's no reason for us to get stuck in the 19th century forever or the 20th century.

175
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,930
So I suppose it's a wide range of projects that we've been doing,

176
00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:15,100
which sort of reflects the need for intersectionality in the approach of the colonial city.

177
00:17:15,100 --> 00:17:19,660
So on the one hand, we've been focussing on bringing in these different voices,

178
00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:26,950
and that meant the sometimes reach out to communities or maker communities could be, you know, contemporary artists.

179
00:17:26,950 --> 00:17:32,020
It could be delegates of originating communities, indigenous peoples.

180
00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:36,610
Sometimes they will also seek us out. That could be for research could beat up there.

181
00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:44,440
You know, there's there's a delegation coming to the UK and they come in and we would make sure that we're prioritising that work when

182
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:51,500
indigenous communities are coming or local communities would also be working a lot with the local communities of Oxford.

183
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,360
So that's the work that our public engagement team, people like Beth and Jose,

184
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:59,230
working with people who are living with disabilities or living with dementia.

185
00:17:59,230 --> 00:18:09,100
Parkinson. We're working with school refusers, young kids who don't want to go to school anymore or who are at risk of being excluded from school.

186
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:16,330
But to bring in those different narratives and to bring in those different experiences and people's, you know,

187
00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:23,320
rich portfolios of lived experience brings in new layers of life into the museum,

188
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,600
new narratives into the museum and I guess maybe more than other places.

189
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:37,270
What we struggle with is how we make those stories be heard in a museum that is so chock full of objects.

190
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:41,620
So it's on the one hand we reach out. We make sure that we are responsive.

191
00:18:41,620 --> 00:18:48,340
On the other hand, one of the things that several of the curatorial team have been doing very actively also is work with contemporary artists

192
00:18:48,340 --> 00:18:56,080
because we know that contemporary artists in their critical engagement with the space that is the Pitt Rivers Museum,

193
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,610
they're on the one hand inspired by it, but they also can really give new readings.

194
00:19:00,610 --> 00:19:03,970
That's what art obviously does really well is to problem with those things,

195
00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:10,630
and they do it without the need for lots of, you know, sort of writing necessarily or speaking necessarily.

196
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:20,500
So I think one of the most impactful interventions in the museum over the past couple of years have been one of them was Nyama Roma,

197
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:30,010
who's a fashion photographer from Tibet, whose work was really sort of hung up in the museum as if it were contemporary art interrogating the space,

198
00:19:30,010 --> 00:19:39,670
interrogating the whole idea of stereotyping people and bringing in a sort of cultural vibrancy in the museum.

199
00:19:39,670 --> 00:19:46,240
Also, because of the portrait that she make, I'm not going to go into detail about what the sort of intellectual thinking was behind it,

200
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:55,000
but it did activate the museum in a way to almost everybody who got it understood what what it was trying to do immediately.

201
00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,370
And so that sort of contrasted really sharply with the usual reaction to the Beethoven Museum,

202
00:20:00,370 --> 00:20:07,600
which is one that can be a double one depending on where people have their roots and the sort of person.

203
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:16,660
All lived experience of colonialism and colonial city impact, how you experience a bit of museums by far largest proportion of people.

204
00:20:16,660 --> 00:20:21,790
Have a great sense of being overwhelmed for some of those people,

205
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:29,620
that is a really pleasant feeling and somehow it gives us these sort of cognitive reaction and emotional reaction of nostalgia.

206
00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:33,190
And of all you have, this is how museums should be filled with objects.

207
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:39,820
And lots of people sort of actually also comment on that, that they say, Oh, it makes me feel like my grandmother's attic.

208
00:20:39,820 --> 00:20:47,380
Or so there's this sort of exoticism colonial city that is, you know, there's all these tropes that are really colonial tropes that come out.

209
00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:53,950
There's other people who will come in and especially people that come from that side of empire that suffered its violence,

210
00:20:53,950 --> 00:20:56,560
that did not profit from its accumulation of wealth,

211
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:05,320
but actually suffered its violence like indigenous peoples, peoples with sort of roots or heritage in places that suffered the violence of empire.

212
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:12,820
They will feel really uncomfortable in the space. When I started, the Draws Must Fall campaign was very active.

213
00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:21,250
I was following Twitter, and so one of the tweets of RhodesMustFall was, you know, rivers museums, one of the most violent spaces in Oxford.

214
00:21:21,250 --> 00:21:28,030
At that time, I was part of a project called Hashtag Decolonise, a museum which was led by Hold On,

215
00:21:28,030 --> 00:21:35,680
which saw me and and just about and Simon as a park in the Netherlands when we were really questioning a lot of

216
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:42,040
our practises and a lot of our label writing and a lot of our sort of the euphemisms that were in the museum.

217
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,850
And we had these projects, which was the EU funded project called Witches,

218
00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:51,310
that sort of was able to pay for some of the costs of that project, which, you know, I was involved in.

219
00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:54,970
And then later, Wayne also becoming involved in and hold on.

220
00:21:54,970 --> 00:22:03,940
And Elias actually. Eliasson, who's also in the Netherlands, had sort of challenged the museum at the time about its call on reality,

221
00:22:03,940 --> 00:22:09,280
and White kept projecting these same problematic ideas to people.

222
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:16,840
So to me, a lot of what RhodesMustFall was saying was very much trying to very closely what was happening in the Netherlands,

223
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:22,060
a bit near sort of decolonising movements both around the curriculum and museums, but also in the states,

224
00:22:22,060 --> 00:22:25,720
you know, because in the states, there was a huge movement, radical ideology,

225
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:33,310
which obviously all of those movements built on indigenous movements, civil rights movements, which have been going on for hundreds of years.

226
00:22:33,310 --> 00:22:38,110
But I think it was an important part for me to also think, OK,

227
00:22:38,110 --> 00:22:46,000
this is great because we'll have people that we can work with when I get to the big, diverse museum, which are, you know, student activists,

228
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:54,700
etc. They can be great, you know, incredibly strong in demanding change, in ensuring that you're also keeping up with,

229
00:22:54,700 --> 00:23:00,370
you know, sort of most recent, more contemporary thinking and ethics, I suppose.

230
00:23:00,370 --> 00:23:05,230
It was also clear when I joined them when we were trying to reach out to other communities,

231
00:23:05,230 --> 00:23:10,660
that might be where we would expect them to be really sort of interested in a museum that,

232
00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:17,980
for example, for the First Peoples collective, which was a collective of students that our First Peoples saw of indigenous origin.

233
00:23:17,980 --> 00:23:27,370
They actually went when we had a meeting. They told us we try to avoid to be driven by all means because it's such a hurtful place.

234
00:23:27,370 --> 00:23:32,500
It's such a damaging place we do not want. But when I see that of visit involved, I won't go.

235
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:37,630
When I see that picture ever is, it's in the rivers. I will. Certainly, I'll just walk around it.

236
00:23:37,630 --> 00:23:44,770
Know, since I was people like Gerard Field and Jessica, so there was a whole group there who were sending very clear messages.

237
00:23:44,770 --> 00:23:55,930
You are a hurtful space to us. What I noticed is that our team at the time were not very much engaging with that in ways that I would expect us to be.

238
00:23:55,930 --> 00:24:02,590
I think going back to what you're talking about, the power imbalance within the space and having those voices of people,

239
00:24:02,590 --> 00:24:08,740
you know, actively avoiding the space because it's such a hurtful space for them and something that you mentioned,

240
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:16,150
I know in the workshop as well was how the colonial collectors are named and then the artists or even

241
00:24:16,150 --> 00:24:23,320
actually named as an anthropologist or artist and giving that power imbalance is present within the space.

242
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,270
It's present in the policy itself.

243
00:24:25,270 --> 00:24:33,520
And just wondering if in terms of changing it, to align it with a strategic plan with the work you've been doing since you started,

244
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,500
what would be the best way to change that power balance in terms of the naming?

245
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:43,300
I mean, obviously understand that a lot of the cases of records, I'm there to name the people who made them.

246
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:46,570
So yeah, it's just wondering if you could kind of comment on that.

247
00:24:46,570 --> 00:24:55,030
The work that Miranda and Megan, also Megan O'Brien and Miranda Thompson of them did, I think two years ago now together with Berlin,

248
00:24:55,030 --> 00:25:00,550
where sort of they did an analysis of our databases and how much information was actually in there?

249
00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:07,550
And how often did we know the indigenous maker or trader or, you know, sort of philosopher who was.

250
00:25:07,550 --> 00:25:15,110
Behind any of the objects that we have five percent is where we did actually have that information.

251
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:22,040
And everywhere else, it was really cleared up. The collector or the person who brought it into the museum was sort of prioritised.

252
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:30,230
That was important information. It's also very visible in the Maasai Living Cultures project, where we worked with the Maasai Restarting 2017,

253
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:34,700
when as part of an indigenous leadership programme inside share,

254
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:41,840
who are sort of participatory video making NGO based here in Oxford, they said, We're going to have a number of indigenous leaders coming.

255
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,680
Why don't we have a session where you bring out some of the objects of those

256
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,810
areas and see whether they want to sort of know either partner or question or,

257
00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:52,640
you know, sort of express concerns?

258
00:25:52,640 --> 00:26:00,650
And so one of the indigenous leaders was somewhere in Nigeria who is a part winning human rights activist of the Tanzanian Maasai,

259
00:26:00,650 --> 00:26:07,970
and he had a really strong reaction and immediately sort of said, OK, I don't understand how these objects ever were taken.

260
00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:11,630
These are things we would never do away with. Why are you saying that they were collected?

261
00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:17,720
What do you mean they weren't just lying on the floor? These are objects that were taken from people, probably on their deathbeds.

262
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,950
So he was really immediate in sort of demanding a different attitude.

263
00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:27,170
One of the things that they asked and they said, Why is it that the missionaries are being mentioned,

264
00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:31,190
but the people who they were taken from the people who make objects?

265
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:35,990
And why did you not reach out to us? These objects have been here for over 100 years.

266
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:42,770
How come you're you've not even asked us about them? Well, you know that we still have a huge amount of knowledge.

267
00:26:42,770 --> 00:26:48,380
And I think that is sort of the reaction of many indigenous people in some indigenous communities,

268
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:55,940
especially those in sort of settler countries like the US and Australia, New Zealand and Canada have really long standing,

269
00:26:55,940 --> 00:27:01,820
I suppose, experience with, you know, sort of demanding of access, first of all, which have a big spark,

270
00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:07,700
especially in the 1992, when, you know, the whole Colombo's was being sort of almost celebrated still.

271
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:13,520
And that's when indigenous movements just very crucially and importantly organised

272
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,260
themselves by combating the nonsense of that being a celebrated moment.

273
00:27:18,260 --> 00:27:23,450
And I think that these were also some of those nation states, you know, also in the 50s and 60s.

274
00:27:23,450 --> 00:27:28,700
But there's been a longstanding resistance from the first moments of colonialism.

275
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:34,310
But in the sort of written scholarly of academic museums, certainly from the 50s, 60s, you know,

276
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:40,490
sort of Custer died for our sins, and there's a whole range of sort of literature that sort of demands change there.

277
00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:45,530
I think that is different in other places where the nation states have been even

278
00:27:45,530 --> 00:27:50,630
more oppressive or less concern on indigenous peoples are even recognised.

279
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:56,690
And so there's a whole range there, which is similar to, you know, Tanzania, Kenya, Kenya is very different from Tanzania.

280
00:27:56,690 --> 00:28:04,040
But again, that's where indigenous communities almost everywhere in the world are still living a huge amount of oppression.

281
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:17,510
And I think, you know, the recent examples of Canada are very clear where you know, the trauma, the continued destruction and continued oppression.

282
00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:21,440
Same in villages in Mexico, where I worked with kids are being, you know,

283
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,550
fine because they speak their mother tongue, because they speak indigenous languages.

284
00:28:25,550 --> 00:28:28,370
And so there's there's a continuous oppression there,

285
00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:35,840
which are museum and our collections need to speak to and need to be part of a process of redress.

286
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,890
And I think that is where that's very much in our strategy.

287
00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:49,190
It's also part of our practise, but it now needs to be written into policy so that it's guaranteed beyond the people who are,

288
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:54,680
you know, in the museum today. We're part of organically part of its organism for a while.

289
00:28:54,680 --> 00:29:02,030
But if we at least put it into policy, move it from practise to policy, we will guarantee that at least there's also a more structural,

290
00:29:02,030 --> 00:29:08,540
systemic change that we, you know, we are guaranteeing that it outlive our presence in the museum.

291
00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:12,920
I think that is a really important aspect of work that needs to happen.

292
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,000
I think something that's come up that would be in future episodes and discussions with other

293
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,720
guests is do we need to have a colonial exploitation act that can kind of mirror alongside that?

294
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,960
You know, maybe. And we'll go on to talk about the accreditation relationship with the Museum of the policy.

295
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:37,700
But do you think that that could be something that would look kind of in the future and could employ that policy

296
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:44,310
aspect that will ensure that this will last multiple generations will have that attitude and have that relationship.

297
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:49,550
So spoliation was a sort of international actually almost agreement, right?

298
00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:54,470
Because it, you know, it also goes in most of Europe. U.K. also.

299
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:59,990
So I don't want to wait for that to happen because I'm not certain that it will happen,

300
00:29:59,990 --> 00:30:07,590
but we can see that there's important shifts movement in Germany, in the Netherlands.

301
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:14,760
Even in France, to a certain degree, in Scandinavia in sort of where actually something similar is happening, right?

302
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,550
So what we've done here and that started in 2016 actually already with a document

303
00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:26,820
that Laura Pearce had draughted is that we had the human remains returns policy.

304
00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:33,990
But we wanted one for cultural objects. The first version that we have is very much based on human remains policy that we now want to rewrite,

305
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:39,060
and we hope to be invited in the next couple of months. But we know the election is going to be working on that.

306
00:30:39,060 --> 00:30:45,510
So the first version was really not great. It was very Oksana, and I don't think anyone would have understood outside of Oxford,

307
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:51,030
and we wanted it to be something that actually would be useful to any claimant so that it gave clarity.

308
00:30:51,030 --> 00:30:56,130
It took four years for council to agree them. First, we have to read them quite quickly.

309
00:30:56,130 --> 00:31:01,680
Actually, they were agreed or two years before they were finally agreed across the whole of the university.

310
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,460
They were agreed for the divorce museum. So our visitors were very supportive.

311
00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:10,470
We have the procedures in place about return and they outline very similar.

312
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:18,990
One could say, as with spoliation, but I guess the difference with spoliation is that the institutions themselves were required to do research.

313
00:31:18,990 --> 00:31:24,870
I think that I'm not going to wait for us to be required to do that. We're already starting with that provenance research.

314
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:30,030
So Marina has over the last year, year and a half been doing quite a bit of research.

315
00:31:30,030 --> 00:31:34,500
Digging into the human remains a bit more. Being more clear about where did they come from?

316
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:37,110
Many cases we just don't have enough information,

317
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:43,680
but we are now reaching out to more and more communities and working with communities to ensure that redress can happen.

318
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,490
I'm not pro proactive repatriation.

319
00:31:47,490 --> 00:31:56,090
I am pro proactive transparency, reaching out to communities and saying We want to let you know that these materials are here.

320
00:31:56,090 --> 00:32:04,590
I'm not pro saying they're here and we're going to give them back to you because I think that would be quite expecting that they want them back.

321
00:32:04,590 --> 00:32:10,170
It's thinking for the communities. I don't think that that gives a correct power balance.

322
00:32:10,170 --> 00:32:15,180
I think it's about sort of ensuring that people know that these collections are here and to

323
00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:20,850
then find a case by case approach because different communities want different approaches.

324
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:24,930
Those procedures were agreed in July 2020 by council.

325
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:33,090
So those are in place. The work on provenance is something that is one of the things that we're working on now is to make sure that at

326
00:32:33,090 --> 00:32:41,610
least we know what we have from which country and have lists that are sort of per country that will be online.

327
00:32:41,610 --> 00:32:46,770
Also, we've put the list of human remains online where people can just go all again for a country,

328
00:32:46,770 --> 00:32:53,010
even though normally we don't classify a country because a bit obvious has a bit of sort of entities of this type logical classification.

329
00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:58,260
It's usually regional and to some countries where it will start.

330
00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:06,330
We've also done and this work was led by Meghan first and then, together with Julia and different members of the staff,

331
00:33:06,330 --> 00:33:14,640
looked into the way that we use group cultural group names and adjusted those because there were many of them are very outdated.

332
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:20,790
So trying to go to the cultural groups and agree how they would prefer to be referred to again,

333
00:33:20,790 --> 00:33:25,170
that's a huge task for a very small actually, in fact museum to do.

334
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:31,050
That's where we're going to be working more and more to get her alongside other museums also.

335
00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:38,520
We've had the Rethinking Relationship project where we are working with the Hortman, Liverpool Cambridge with Jesse Niala,

336
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:45,030
who's been working with communities in Kenya and in Nigeria on collections that are here in the UK.

337
00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:53,580
We are going to put in a bit for continuation of that project and expanding the number of countries that we would be working with.

338
00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:59,520
Then obviously, Marenco has been working with different contemporary artists from different parts in the world.

339
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:06,090
Chris has projects working with Aboriginal communities in Australia, but also to some in South Africa.

340
00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:09,780
And then Dan Hicks has a number of quite well funded projects now.

341
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:16,980
One of them is going to start another one's already on the way, doing quite a bit of provenance research, especially in the punitive campaigns.

342
00:34:16,980 --> 00:34:26,130
I don't know how many countries, but it's a huge amount of countries that are doing work with, even though we are really quite badly resourced.

343
00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:32,820
If you compare it to, you know, a place like the British Museum or any of the of the national museums in Europe,

344
00:34:32,820 --> 00:34:39,000
actually sort of the number of countries that we have relationships with is really across the globe.

345
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,720
They challenge us. I think that is what I like about this relationship.

346
00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:54,090
There challenges to not be set in this institutional politics or institutional ways of working, but they challenge us to be flexible, to be adaptable,

347
00:34:54,090 --> 00:34:57,720
to make sure that we are actually listening, learning,

348
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:07,250
understanding better what it is that these collections can be in a future where hopefully it will be less in opposition to each other.

349
00:35:07,250 --> 00:35:16,580
Less oppressive, less extractive. But it's it often goes very slowly, it often takes many, many years, and that can be quite challenging.

350
00:35:16,580 --> 00:35:21,830
You know, there is change, but change sometimes happens very, very slowly.

351
00:35:21,830 --> 00:35:32,750
So I think that is where I want to thank you guys. That was the Rivers Museum's Matters of Policy podcast produced by Darcy Woodhouse.

352
00:35:32,750 --> 00:35:41,330
It will make a man, Alexis Varela and Bobble Hat Sound Music by Jack Forcett voiceover Baiju,

353
00:35:41,330 --> 00:35:52,548
who led a special thank you to Muranga Thomas from Oslo and the Knowledge Exchange.