1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:11,340 2 00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:21,690 Welcome to the Rivers Museums. Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy, 3 00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:33,150 speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy. 4 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:39,430 Hi, I'm Alexis, and I'm Betsy, and I joined Alexis today as we spoke to Julian Eden. 5 00:00:39,430 --> 00:00:50,400 Sure, Julian. Eden Shore is a Haida artist who has participated in several excursions of Haida elders and artists to the Pitt Rivers Museum, 6 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,880 including participating in the Great Books Project. 7 00:00:53,880 --> 00:01:02,610 He is here today to talk about his experience with the Pitt Rivers Museum and to give his perspective on the policy. 8 00:01:02,610 --> 00:01:08,670 Before we begin the episode, we would like to provide a content warning throughout the second half of that episode. 9 00:01:08,670 --> 00:01:13,230 Withdrawn. There are a number of mentions of residential schools. 10 00:01:13,230 --> 00:01:21,060 The first question that we have? Can you tell us a bit about your experience working with the Pitt Rivers Museum? 11 00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:31,440 I first went there with sort highly delegation, and what we were doing was we were going back for repatriation of one of our ancestors. 12 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:38,190 It was also we got to study all of our pieces that are in the museum there, 13 00:01:38,190 --> 00:01:45,750 and it was probably the best experience I've had with the museum going around, working with other museums. 14 00:01:45,750 --> 00:01:54,660 And a lot of times, you know, you're going in and you're looking at the Haida or northwest coast pieces and they're sort of dark shells and you know, 15 00:01:54,660 --> 00:01:56,970 you're trying to flashlight into them where, you know, 16 00:01:56,970 --> 00:02:02,160 they get to pull out one or two or sometimes you pull out lots, but you know, it feels rushed and everything. 17 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,600 And actually, at the Pitt Rivers Museum, the staff pulled everything out. 18 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:15,180 Everything that we would want to see had it all laid out on tables. And essentially, we could spend as long or as little time with any of that stuff. 19 00:02:15,180 --> 00:02:24,510 It was all well lit. They were definitely considerate of some of the sort of ceremonial and spiritual pieces that they had that, you know, 20 00:02:24,510 --> 00:02:28,980 affected us and affected some of the elders in some pretty powerful ways, 21 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:34,620 you know, and definitely you could see like the conservators and stuff, you know, 22 00:02:34,620 --> 00:02:40,170 their their job is to look after these pieces and then, you know, we go in and, you know, 23 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:45,000 we recognise something from a dance or something and put it on and you have all of a sudden 24 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,490 someone sort of dancing with a mask and you could see the conservators a little bit too wary, 25 00:02:50,490 --> 00:02:53,160 but they allowed it all to happen. 26 00:02:53,160 --> 00:03:00,180 I think probably they learnt a lot about the pieces that they had, you know, because for them, you know, these are just objects, 27 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:05,670 not much information recorded on them, and they're dealing with them at a pretty intimate level, 28 00:03:05,670 --> 00:03:11,790 cleaning them or whatever, you know, they never seen them dance to. They've never heard the story that goes with them or whatnot. 29 00:03:11,790 --> 00:03:18,750 So I think sort of brought some life to it for them, but also for us, it allowed us to study these objects. 30 00:03:18,750 --> 00:03:25,650 And then the next time that we dealt with Pitt, Rivers was with me and my brother. 31 00:03:25,650 --> 00:03:32,010 There is a wooden box in particular that was in the collection, just a masterpiece with just absolute beauty. 32 00:03:32,010 --> 00:03:39,270 And there is so many things within the design that, you know, almost felt like it was a contemporary artists, 33 00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:44,720 you know, sort of pushing the boundaries of the rules of our art, and we wanted to learn more. 34 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:50,310 As so we mentioned Laura Pierce, who was heading things up at the time that we, you know, 35 00:03:50,310 --> 00:03:57,260 we really wanted to study this piece more, and only way to really learn was to do a recreation of it. 36 00:03:57,260 --> 00:04:03,810 So took several years, but we came up with some money and the museum came up with money and brought us out. 37 00:04:03,810 --> 00:04:08,730 And so in total, I think we spent about three months working on the on the chest. 38 00:04:08,730 --> 00:04:13,800 We had to spend one month in the museum carving again with the museum rules. 39 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,580 We were never allowed to be left with the just by ourselves. 40 00:04:17,580 --> 00:04:23,670 So we had museum staff actually sit with us for 14 hour days as we carved and no, 41 00:04:23,670 --> 00:04:32,460 never really complained about the late hours or for anything and for that experience, you know, I'm quite grateful. 42 00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:37,770 It's always sort of a love-hate relationship with museums just because of the history. 43 00:04:37,770 --> 00:04:46,740 But, you know, with where things stand and how we were welcomed and treated, I, they appreciated that quite a bit. 44 00:04:46,740 --> 00:04:52,980 That was really nice to answer. Thank you. When you were reading the collections development policy, 45 00:04:52,980 --> 00:05:01,080 how much did you feel that your experience with the museum working there, I mean, the people that was reflected in the policy? 46 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,540 Well, I think museums are sort of slow to change, you know, and I think the policy reflects that. 47 00:05:06,540 --> 00:05:08,710 I think it's, you know, using a lot of old. 48 00:05:08,710 --> 00:05:17,220 Wording and old ideologies that were and are held by museums, but the is probably the last to change where, 49 00:05:17,220 --> 00:05:20,760 you know, the staff are a little more aware of some of those issues like, 50 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:26,070 for instance, like with the repatriation that we did do 10 years before that trip, 51 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:31,950 where we did receive the remains are two sort of repatriation champions. 52 00:05:31,950 --> 00:05:37,920 Mikakos and Lucy met with Pitt Rivers and at the end of the meeting, 53 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:43,760 whoever was in charge at the time essentially said there is no way that we'll ever give back any human remains. 54 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,740 You know, these are our collection that's pretty hard to take. 55 00:05:46,740 --> 00:05:52,980 But rather than fighting and dealing with it like that, those people, they built their relationship over a decade. 56 00:05:52,980 --> 00:05:58,770 And, you know, 10 years later, they welcomed us with open arms and at least with the human remains that gave it back. 57 00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:03,240 There's issues with the rest of the collection, but but you know, that was an important thing to do. 58 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,680 I think one thing that really struck us when we were reading it was that 59 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,710 disjointed ness between the practicality on the ground and what's in the policy. 60 00:06:13,710 --> 00:06:21,150 And you know, the stories that you said about going into the museum and having somebody there with you while you're working on the box. 61 00:06:21,150 --> 00:06:26,790 Ideally, the policy would lead the way, but often it is the people on the ground who are doing the work to a leader. 62 00:06:26,790 --> 00:06:33,060 Just looking specifically at certain passages in the policy for point two point one 63 00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:40,410 talks about complementary contemporary artefacts and also a Passage 3.2.1 as well. 64 00:06:40,410 --> 00:06:49,020 And I think one of the things that we really noticed was how the creators of the art in the museum are very rarely mentioned while the collectors 65 00:06:49,020 --> 00:07:00,450 are prioritised and named and sometimes using questionable language to revere the collectors who went out and and took some of these objects. 66 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:08,490 Do you feel that this affects your relationship with the museum having that power imbalance in the policy in there? 67 00:07:08,490 --> 00:07:12,540 It's mentioning the collectors and then it says object by a black foot artist. 68 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:17,910 And I think what happens there and I seen it again when they're collecting New 69 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:22,740 Materials Museum continues to acquire contemporary artefacts through anthropology, 70 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:27,720 field work, collaborative research with source communities with relevant opportunities, blah blah. 71 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,270 Just sort of the idea of source communities and stuff. 72 00:07:30,270 --> 00:07:39,330 It's, you know, it's still we're the subject, you know, being sort of examined scientifically and the museum where the institution is like, you know, 73 00:07:39,330 --> 00:07:46,470 this sort of higher entity as opposed to just recognising the relationship and recognising that there's an interest 74 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:54,360 from those who visit the museum to see what our culture is today and what it was before with the names and stuff, 75 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,160 I think I might get into this a little later. 76 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:04,530 But you know, that's one of my biggest issues with museums is just how little information was ever gathered with any of the material. 77 00:08:04,530 --> 00:08:10,020 So you when you're looking at a piece, you know, there's maybe the town of where it's gathered is collected, 78 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:14,610 but the name of the artist never is the owner of the piece. 79 00:08:14,610 --> 00:08:19,920 Rarely is. And then, like you said, the collector is sort of held up on this pedestal, 80 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:26,700 even though many of these collectors, you know, were essentially participating in the genocide of our people. 81 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:31,710 So they're, yeah, they're they're being held up. Well, we're sort of the curio. 82 00:08:31,710 --> 00:08:35,910 You touched also on the terminology used as well source communities, 83 00:08:35,910 --> 00:08:43,290 which is something that our colleague has worked on and something that she discusses quite well. 84 00:08:43,290 --> 00:08:50,070 How do you think that the policy, the terminology used in it can be better amended? 85 00:08:50,070 --> 00:08:57,660 I think museums have to. I think in general, a lot of museums are trying to make create not just a better relationship, 86 00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:07,140 but like a reciprocal relationship where you know the communities are benefiting as as are the museum. 87 00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:16,860 What suggestions might you make to sort of change aspects of the policy or some of the words used or some of the things that emphasises or focuses on? 88 00:09:16,860 --> 00:09:21,600 Well, I think a lot of the wording almost dehumanises the, you know, 89 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:29,980 indigenous communities or the communities where they come from and by not naming names and by calling it source community and stuff like it. 90 00:09:29,980 --> 00:09:39,690 Sort of. It's that whole academic idea of like sort of looking at or pretending that you can look at things without a biased or whatever. 91 00:09:39,690 --> 00:09:44,580 So they're like sort of using this terminology, but in doing so creates a biased essentially. 92 00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:51,930 So, you know, I think the wording like, you know, creating reciprocal relationships or, you know, 93 00:09:51,930 --> 00:10:00,990 partnering communities or or just communities just rather than rather than throwing the source in there sort of thing, 94 00:10:00,990 --> 00:10:08,680 you know, just recognising the people as people, not just not something to be mined sort of sounds like it's like you're. 95 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:14,660 To mine something and and bring it back, which essentially that's what museums have done, 96 00:10:14,660 --> 00:10:19,480 right, it's sort of part of that colonial process going out and gathering and bringing back. 97 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:25,300 Yeah, completely. And it's difficult because obviously that is the legacy we have to deal with working in the museum, 98 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:30,220 but it's also a legacy that we don't need to reinforce moving forward. 99 00:10:30,220 --> 00:10:34,480 And, you know, some of the language, and this definitely does reinforce it. 100 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:45,400 I think my favourite with clients is they're describing somebody as a distinguished colonial officer in 3.2.2, 101 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,750 which I think is just it's just completely pointless and doesn't need to be there. 102 00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:55,990 So one of the questions that you said sort of was about like, how does it acknowledge its sort of colonial past? 103 00:10:55,990 --> 00:11:02,980 And it doesn't accept that it does all over the place in stating these people and the term you just mentioned there. 104 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:07,540 It's sort of unwittingly acknowledging the colonial past, 105 00:11:07,540 --> 00:11:13,600 but not doing it in a in a way where they're accepting it and putting it out there that this is what happened. 106 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,980 It's almost like they're acknowledging it as a good thing. 107 00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:24,490 How do you think the policy can better address, then, in the way that we want to, 108 00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:30,580 you know, also sort of condemn, not praise the colonial roots of the museum? 109 00:11:30,580 --> 00:11:34,720 I don't know, because again, I'm not really a big policy guy. 110 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,640 And I know, you know, the reason they're writing it is to protect what they have. 111 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:46,150 And you know, for me, like one of the issues that came up when we were there was when we went there, 112 00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:49,720 we went in and we were like, OK, here's highly treasures. 113 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:56,320 Here's here's our things. And then, you know, a lot of the people from around the museum, they're like, Well, these are things, right? 114 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,490 So they're sort of head to head on that a little bit. But everyone was good. 115 00:12:00,490 --> 00:12:05,770 We, you know, it's good to have these discussions because we can't change what happened in the past. 116 00:12:05,770 --> 00:12:11,950 The reality is that we have tens of thousands of pieces all over the world of our old pieces. 117 00:12:11,950 --> 00:12:21,850 But you know, we have very little at home like we do have a museum now and it's a good museum, but we have maybe one percent of the stuff home and, 118 00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:28,840 you know, pieces that were used for ceremony and used for, you know, owned by families and individuals. 119 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:34,630 You know, all that has been taken in, you know, with the mask, with a box, with a spoon. 120 00:12:34,630 --> 00:12:36,160 The story is gone too, right? 121 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:45,820 I don't know how you would acknowledge this in policy, but I think for us and sort of having the acknowledgement of how these pieces were acquired, 122 00:12:45,820 --> 00:12:48,970 there is one passage in there that sort of talked about. 123 00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:56,350 And I think they were talking about sort of acquiring new things, but they were saying, make sure that we have legal title to the piece. 124 00:12:56,350 --> 00:13:05,860 And in actuality, probably a large chunk of the whole debt collection was gathered either under duress or straight up illegally. 125 00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:10,840 So that's still a question for us, right? Do these museums have legal title to these objects? 126 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,680 You know, like definitely, some things were traded and sold to collectors. 127 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:22,270 And, you know, other things were straight up stolen back in the 1880s in Canada, all the way up to the 1950s. 128 00:13:22,270 --> 00:13:27,010 The government put a ban on Potlatch and sort of cultural gatherings. 129 00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:30,880 And during that time, you know, all these things were confiscated. 130 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:36,310 And, you know, I don't know directly of Pitt. Rivers has any, but they ended up all over the world, you know, 131 00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:41,740 at museums and private collections of, you know, the Indian agents and people from the church. 132 00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:48,010 We're all financially benefiting from the laws they were putting in place to stop us from continuing their culture, 133 00:13:48,010 --> 00:13:53,910 you know, so I think there is a question about the legal right of these museums to hold some of these pieces. 134 00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:57,970 You know, I acknowledge that it's definitely not straightforward, right? 135 00:13:57,970 --> 00:14:04,300 Like, it's it's hard to know what exactly was and wasn't stolen, but we know other stolen pieces in there. 136 00:14:04,300 --> 00:14:11,630 Know again, rather than sort of holding these collectors up as the founders of the museum to acknowledge that question at least. 137 00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:15,940 And you know how to address that, how to make some redress. 138 00:14:15,940 --> 00:14:19,900 I think the idea of retroactively examining the collections, 139 00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:30,520 I know that a lot of things are into collections under different names that you can locate things now and all the kind of logistical elements to it. 140 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:38,170 But one thing that we have kind of considered as part of our research into the policy, the policy does talk about this speculation. 141 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:48,190 As Point fourteen, there's the Holocaust Act, which kind of looks retroactively looking at the collections in multiple museums and saying, 142 00:14:48,190 --> 00:14:57,010 OK, if it was taken during a certain period by certain cultural groups and under duress and then sold. 143 00:14:57,010 --> 00:15:04,360 And all museums have to adhere to this in the U.K. and they know that there's a similar one in the United States as well. 144 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,540 And one thing that we were considering was the need for a similar. 145 00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:17,780 Act that museums would have to adhere to to kind of retroactively look at the collections that they have examined it and present it in the same way. 146 00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:28,220 Yeah, I noticed like in in Canada here in the news recently, they've been finding the graves of children at residential schools and so far, 147 00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:33,680 you know, over a thousand unmarked graves and they still have, you know, hundreds of schools to look at. 148 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:40,670 We've heard those stories before at my chimney, the dug graves radius, and he's a student there. 149 00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:48,080 And, you know, a little bit bigger. And so they had him digging the graves. It's not new and it's it's crazy that it's just coming out now. 150 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,850 So often, you know, we speak of what happened to our people as genocide. 151 00:15:52,850 --> 00:15:56,720 You know, we have stories of smallpox being spread intentionally. 152 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:04,760 You know, government officials purposely not vaccinating, you know, before the smallpox epidemic broke out, things like that. 153 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:11,630 But I think that most Canadian officials and staff really don't want to see those words. 154 00:16:11,630 --> 00:16:17,120 And I think because it opens up these issues, right? And so they're trying to stay away from saying it. 155 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,330 But, you know, I think it's important to recognise for these issues, right? 156 00:16:20,330 --> 00:16:24,730 We can address some of it like this. You know, this isn't ancient stuff like this. 157 00:16:24,730 --> 00:16:36,980 The last residential school closed in 1996. You know, my my father's old grandmother, his great grandmother, who he grew up with for some time. 158 00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:47,180 You know, she was born in a long house in the 1850s or so and came in to spend your time living quote, you know, traditionally. 159 00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:53,040 And then, you know, by the end of her life was living in the town and things were modern bothering her own, 160 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:58,580 you know, so the bones at the museum's house came from people she probably knew. 161 00:16:58,580 --> 00:17:03,560 And it's not. This is an ancient past. This is, you know, within one memory. 162 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:09,500 Another thing that was touched on sort of in these conversations of objects that are 163 00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:14,900 taken by the museum and that are part of the museum's collections now is that the 164 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:22,370 policy is very sparse on repatriation to think about what are the implications of 165 00:17:22,370 --> 00:17:27,860 having very little consideration or sort of official recognition for repatriation. 166 00:17:27,860 --> 00:17:36,320 How important do you think also in our conversations about the government of Canada officially recognising genocide? 167 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:41,120 How important do you think it is to have these official recognitions for the 168 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:47,210 importance of repatriation and the acknowledgement of colonial roots and of genocide? 169 00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:50,570 I think it is very important to be represented in the policy. 170 00:17:50,570 --> 00:17:58,760 I know Laura had to advocate for us in Beirut with us to make the repatriation happen that we got, 171 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,590 and I'm not sure how much other human remains that the museum has. 172 00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:08,150 But, you know, in that regard with our ancestors, it worked out for us. 173 00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:12,350 You know, again, it was a decade of waiting for it and creating those relationships. 174 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:16,460 But I think there should be clear policy on it that allows that to happen, you know, 175 00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:23,720 and even within the policy and again, the dehumanising language to get it out of the museum, 176 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:30,400 they talk about the disposal of human remains when they're talking about repatriating, you know, our ancestors back, just the language. 177 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,450 And it's it's it's the language you use to take out the trash, you know, 178 00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:42,080 and they were using that language for talking about if they ever sort of sell or get rid of objects as well. 179 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:48,410 But it just seemed quite disrespectful to use that within. We're talking about people's ancestors. 180 00:18:48,410 --> 00:18:53,420 That language used throughout is such a juxtaposition to why I might go to a museum, 181 00:18:53,420 --> 00:19:01,190 why somebody might go to museums to get that idea of how people lived and feel the connexion and understanding. 182 00:19:01,190 --> 00:19:04,520 And it's the human aspect that you look for when you go to the space, 183 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,870 no matter what organisation you're working and the language of policy is always going to be clinical, 184 00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:13,530 maybe adding that humanity to it is human, so you know that you're talking about. 185 00:19:13,530 --> 00:19:21,500 So I think also the clinical language is sort of an attempt or sort of a way to 186 00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:28,530 distance them from these really emotional and human and often terrible things. 187 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:36,020 Acknowledging colonial roots and everything that comes with that is difficult and is something that not everyone wants to do. 188 00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:44,570 And using the clinical language is a sort of it's a way of making everything clean and washing your hands of it and saying, Well, that's not me. 189 00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:52,730 This is all very straightforward and logical, but the reality is you just can't avoid it and you shouldn't. 190 00:19:52,730 --> 00:20:00,920 Is the repatriation policy here? Is that talking also about cultural items, or is it mostly just on human remains? 191 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:07,210 It's not clear from my understanding. It does kind of mainly speak about human remains. 192 00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:14,710 Maybe that the. And to kind of a final question, which is talking a little bit about objects that are held within the collection, 193 00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:21,820 which have agency maybe in the policy and in your own experience with the museum, 194 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:28,810 do you think that museums and the Pitt rivers deal sufficiently with objects that have agency? 195 00:20:28,810 --> 00:20:32,800 I think sort of the nature of museums. They don't. 196 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:40,660 With Haida art, so much of it was usable objects and almost the nature of our art. 197 00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:44,890 These pieces are not standalone. They come with the story. 198 00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:54,880 They come with the song come with a performance and now is one of the big losses for us when the collectors went out essentially during that period. 199 00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:01,990 Pitt Rivers was sort of almost early in the collecting period, you know, sort of mid eighteen hundreds to early nineteen hundreds. 200 00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:08,290 It was a frenzy. You know, there is collectors, museums wanting to fill their storehouse of the best totem pole. 201 00:21:08,290 --> 00:21:13,000 Have the best, whatever, you know, sort of competition with the neighbouring museums and collectors. 202 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:19,360 And none of that was recorded until there's sort of an idea that the museum is like a sort of a scientific institution. 203 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:23,680 But it's not really. It's just a storehouse of colonial plunder, really. 204 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,000 At its core, it is, I think, become more scientific over the years. 205 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,610 But when collecting was happening, there was very little information gathered. 206 00:21:33,610 --> 00:21:36,910 So coupled with, you know, taking our children, you know, 207 00:21:36,910 --> 00:21:42,040 forcibly taking them to residential school and enacting laws that would stop us from 208 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,020 performing and telling their stories and teaching the lessons that came with these objects. 209 00:21:47,020 --> 00:21:52,150 And then at the same time, having those objects removed from community. A lot of those stories were lost. 210 00:21:52,150 --> 00:21:56,230 A lot of the lessons that came with these and the songs were just gone. 211 00:21:56,230 --> 00:22:01,210 Whereas if we were able to keep some of that within our community, it would have that memory with it. 212 00:22:01,210 --> 00:22:05,260 The mask would have a story. There's actually a mass in the Pitt Rivers Museum, 213 00:22:05,260 --> 00:22:11,890 one of the elders and I was a little kid told me a story about a creature that would come out and had red, glowing eyes. 214 00:22:11,890 --> 00:22:17,110 Pretty much that was all she said. She had a little story about it. You know, I'd never seen it or heard it anywhere else. 215 00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:21,430 And then when I left the museum there, there's a mask and it had red fabric eyes. 216 00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:26,740 And then in behind, you could see where you'd hold make some calls or a torch so that eyes would actually glow. 217 00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:34,240 And you know, there is that little fragment of the story that's been collected to that, you know, so we're able to sort of piecing it together. 218 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,980 And you know, I did I did a mask, you know, representing that character now and until we can bring that dance back a bit. 219 00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:47,230 But there is also objects that, you know, even our most knowledgeable elders on the trip looked at and they're like, We have no idea what this is for. 220 00:22:47,230 --> 00:22:57,310 And those things are gone. I don't think that the objects, you know, should be open for people to dance or anything at the museum. 221 00:22:57,310 --> 00:22:59,560 And that's the nature of a museum. 222 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:08,030 But removing that agency from these pieces has cost our people a lot, and I'm sure it's the same with other people around the world. 223 00:23:08,030 --> 00:23:10,690 I don't know how the policy would address that, 224 00:23:10,690 --> 00:23:20,710 maybe acknowledging that sort of juxtaposition with what a mask is when it's sitting behind glass and what the whole package was when it was in use. 225 00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:25,000 I think it's quite a difficult one because so much of collections, 226 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:32,650 policy and the accreditation standards that museums must uphold are so focussed around the idea of preservation. 227 00:23:32,650 --> 00:23:40,840 It's such a conundrum what to do with the objects that require preservation that don't fit into this kind of neat little box. 228 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,590 If you know, if I try to preserve a glass, I've got my cupboard. 229 00:23:44,590 --> 00:23:45,640 It's straightforward. 230 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:53,920 It's an issue with how the museum is formed, how the policy has been formed and what maybe what we prioritise within the museum space. 231 00:23:53,920 --> 00:24:01,900 You know, having conversations and slowly changing attitudes and changing policies could help a little bit. 232 00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:09,280 And I, I think building the relationship with the people whose pieces these are is so important to, 233 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,350 you know, we're not the museum not going to give us all our things back tomorrow. 234 00:24:14,350 --> 00:24:19,060 So, you know, we got to live with that. You know, our deal with it and address it. 235 00:24:19,060 --> 00:24:25,000 But in the meantime, we got to create these relationships where we can both learn from each other. 236 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:31,930 Like when we went to the museum, we learnt so much, you know, as artists, but also we went there with elders and singers. 237 00:24:31,930 --> 00:24:42,790 And, you know, so having that trip actually is a really good example of how communities can work with museums because these things are preserved. 238 00:24:42,790 --> 00:24:47,380 And, you know, we were able to go. I imagine the cost was quite expensive. 239 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:49,780 And you know, that's that is a limiting factor. 240 00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:57,640 But, you know, creating that relationship and having a large chunk of our community come in and learn from these pieces and bring the chest home. 241 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:03,220 And we've, you know, taught people using it in our chest has been used in ceremony and Paul latches. 242 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:07,300 And so it has a life now. You know, again, it's questionable. 243 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:18,580 How the museums obtain these things, but today the museum has them so through policy, acknowledging us as stakeholders in all of this for us. 244 00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:26,930 These pieces mean a lot more individually to us than than they do to any, you know, passing passing customers through the museum. 245 00:25:26,930 --> 00:25:32,500 You know, I think just if we're able to go there and be part of it, then everybody learns from that. 246 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:38,680 We learn. But you know, we shared with all the staff and ended up mingling with a lot of the people going through. 247 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:44,170 And most people don't know any of these issues. You know, they're just going to the museum to look at some cool things. 248 00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:48,760 So, you know, having that conversation is a start great and having us go there. 249 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:56,170 It's hard to change institutions and, you know, it's amazing the steps that has been done, you know, but I think there's a long way to go as well. 250 00:25:56,170 --> 00:26:01,690 We may be kind of building a kind of stipulation about trips with open access, 251 00:26:01,690 --> 00:26:09,700 with some kind of language around not stopping people coming to have those experience that is mutually beneficial for the people involved. 252 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:14,320 This is, I'm sure, too much of a leap for the institution. 253 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:20,110 But you know, if there was an acknowledgement through the relationship with the communities for us, 254 00:26:20,110 --> 00:26:27,190 for the high tech community, if there is an acknowledgement of some type of ownership of these pieces, they do belong to us. 255 00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:31,030 You know, they're not just tied to objects that are owned by the museum. 256 00:26:31,030 --> 00:26:34,900 You know, and it's not even like we have the capacity at home, right? 257 00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,410 This instance to start taking things from all these museums. 258 00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:43,210 I think that's what museums are scared of is all of a sudden we're going to take everything back. 259 00:26:43,210 --> 00:26:50,280 You know, you guys can hold on to it for us, recognise that it belongs to us, and then we could lend it to you guys. 260 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:57,170 So I know that has happened and at least one institution I'm aware of in Scotland, and it's remained in the museum, but the ownership has changed. 261 00:26:57,170 --> 00:27:02,050 I think you sort of very nicely answered the question I was thinking of. 262 00:27:02,050 --> 00:27:08,860 And really, I think what this episode is getting, which is what you would like to see be done by the museum, 263 00:27:08,860 --> 00:27:17,860 an acknowledgement of ownership of history and an emphasis on building relationships. 264 00:27:17,860 --> 00:27:19,300 Yeah, I think sums it up. 265 00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:29,990 Thank you so much for taking the time to have a chat with us and provide some insight into the possibility that we could take moving forward. 266 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:34,330 But we look at this. Thanks. Thanks for your guidance. 267 00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:35,530 Bit in looking at this, 268 00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:42,280 I think keeping the conversation going right and keeping these relationships with museums and with our people is very important. 269 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:52,360 And it's good that you do this. That was the Rivers Museums Matters of Policy podcast produced by Darcy Woodhouse. 270 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:59,620 Yet Boom, Mega Man Alexis Boyer and Bobble Hat Sound Music by Jack Fawcett, 271 00:27:59,620 --> 00:28:12,170 voiceover Baiju who let a special thank you to Muranga Thompson Offline and the Knowledge Exchange.