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Welcome to the Rivers Museums.

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Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy,

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speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy.

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Hi, I'm Alexis. Hi, I'm Megan, and I'm on indigenous land today.

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I'd like to do a land acknowledgement, so I am a white settler of Celtic and British descent living on Treaty one territory in Winnipeg,

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which is the traditional lands of the initial knob, the new Ajiboye, the new Cree ogy,

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Cree Denny and Dakota peoples, as well as the birthplace of the nation.

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I acknowledge that Canada's history of colonialism and genocide continue to deeply harm indigenous communities,

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and I am committed to listening to indigenous people throughout my work in cultural

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institutions and learning as much as I can in order to move forward with truth,

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reconciliation and restitution. And today will be interviewing.

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Solomon E. A. Solomon Innes is an indigenous artist from Hawaii who works in a variety of mediums, including contemporary pieces.

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He has worked extensively with the Pitt Rivers Museum and is here today to talk about his experience working with the

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Pitt Rivers Museum as an artist and to share his perspectives on the practises and policies of the Pitt Rivers Museum.

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OK, first question can you tell us just a bit about your experience working with the Pitt Rivers?

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Sure. Absolutely. It was a call I got by corps.

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She had reached out to me with their interest of creating an intervention piece in the museum.

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I was absolutely honoured. I must say I have different load, but I guess it's a real big fan of everything British.

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My grandmother is from England and so I've had a chance to visit England several

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times and I basically I'm listening to the BBC radio like all day long.

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I even spend time listening to the BBC Radio four and I love to hear the shipping a shipping report.

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You know, little things like that. So I have a real big fan of everything.

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You know, British and so in whole our royalty,

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it really had a strong connexion with British culture because at the time we were between America and England,

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you know, as far as our it came to our kingdom, but any rolling it for it,

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it's really wonderful to continue to collaborate and to work with you folks.

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And especially because the level of sensitivity and the layer of storytelling that is being achieved

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for the museum is setting such an important standard for how stories get told about the artefacts.

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It's a real, real careful line, and I'm sure it's happening with so many other folks.

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I'm really interested in what's what's been going on with the I believe is like the beginning the collections of materials that have

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come from Africa and that real big discussion about whether those things get returned or whether they get on they put on display.

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And it's such a dual sided thing because on one hand, artefacts should go home to where they're from.

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But at the same time, there's opportunity to understand not only through, you know, stories are important,

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but the actual artefacts actually be able to look at something and to see a feather,

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a fairly cloak from Hawaii or something like that to be able to see the entire working and the interweaving of everything.

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Those pieces are also a kind of ambassadors as well, so I can definitely see the two sides of it.

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But I think the level of sensitivity again, it sets such important standards for how stories get told about the materials that represent the culture.

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So, yeah, I'm going to be giving pretty much five stars for most of these questions.

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So, you know, just just because I get I mean,

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I've never had this level of care and sensitivity attributed to cultural artefacts that, you know, for me as a Native Hawaiian.

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Are these really extensions of me and my ancestors and all of you know, all those people in Hawaii?

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Can you tell me, how does this personal experience that you've had with the Pitt rivers compared to the policy?

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What were your initial reactions to reading some of the things in the policy?

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Well, it really sets a standard for being able to retroactively go through the some of the archives and some

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of the materials as what you guys are doing helps to make up for centuries of misrepresentation.

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So I think for the most part, both the policies as they were written, you know,

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as you guys presented them to me and how it actually played out is was completely in sync.

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So I think I think that way that policies were implemented were completely in line with what actually happened.

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So glowing reviews. I'm so glad to hear that because I'm Canadian and there's a lot of very negative.

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Stories about Western Canadians interacting with sort of indigenous people who live on Turtle Island as well,

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so there's not always a great relationship,

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so it's really good to hear and we're learning a lot, particularly with Marine Corps, about the idea of objects having lives.

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And I would absolutely love to hear more of that perspective from you about objects

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having sort of their own lived experiences and their own lives within the museum,

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because I'm not sure that the policy always sort of takes that into account, but it's a bit more clinical.

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Sure. I think one thing I really want to hone in on is definitely objects being, you know, again, an expense of actual people,

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a book of a culture and overarching view of why I think this is so important and why I really honoured to have a chance to work with you, folks.

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This is what many of our ancient cultures remind us and this and our indigenous cultures, that's what it reminds us of.

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And I always wonder, whenever I talk about native indigenous cultures, I also really want to be sure to include, to a degree, absolutely everybody.

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Everybody is indigenous and everybody is native to somewhere.

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By acknowledging the indigenous and other people, we are working towards respecting their own indigenous.

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Yes, well, this is how we should all be treated. This is all all our artefacts to be treated.

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I understand that distinction between an indigenous person and then somebody maybe not be indigenous to that place.

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But at the same time, I'm trying to find a way to make sure that when we talk about honouring objects that come from humans,

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that it is something that is collective. What are the lessons that that holds,

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I think for modern society is that the things that we wore like if I have a copper cloak or a copper skirt in ancient Hawaii,

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I knew where that came from.

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If I was 500 years ago and I was wearing this clothes, I saw my grandmother harvests the bulkier bushes or the bulky plant,

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and I saw her ferment it, and then I saw her beat it into copper.

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And then now I'm wearing it as an ancient person. I know the genealogy, so to speak of the things I'm wearing.

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And because of that, I appreciate this.

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I understand and also by watching my grandmother make that clock, I've learnt how to do it and I'm going to make it right.

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In today's society, I don't know where this shirt came from. You know, I don't know if the people who made this shirt.

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I don't know if they're safe. I don't know if they were living and working conditions where they're I mean, maybe, maybe they are.

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Maybe, I don't know. We've come from a time when we don't know what the objects around us right now are modern objects.

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We don't know who made them. We don't know how those, how they're doing.

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So I think that to me is almost like the subtext for making sure that the stories

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are told about all the object is a reminder for us today to look around us and say,

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Well, you know, we're living in our own museum and we should know the name to our computers are our headphones.

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Like, who are the people that are making things around this? How are they?

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And are they? Well, you know? So I think that's that's sort of the subtext which may not always be caught,

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but I think that's what I want to bring up is that it's important for us to label sort of everything about labelling matters,

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labelling everything we own matters to. You know, I think that's something I would even I would extend that idea.

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Totally agree with your point about the sort of disconnect that we have in the modern world, but also in the Pitt Rivers collection and in the policy,

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there's a lot more detail or focus on the collectors and not as much focus on the artists who made the collections.

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Where were they taken from? What do you think of that? How do you think the museum can rectify that?

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Part of the exhibit of ancient artefacts from a place is to bring in the modern voice that we're descendants of

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those people and having them talk about what it feels like to have their artefacts in other parts of the world.

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I think it's important for for the museum to present so that, say, Hawaiians, who don't want the artefacts to be shown and want them all back.

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I'm definitely on the other end with a bit more. I mean, I think artefacts, when they need to return, they need to return.

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But at the same time, in order for a culture to survive, education is such an important part.

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In other words, it's easier to be erased if people don't even know you in the first place.

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Right? And I think that is part of a cultural resurgence is letting the world showing the world the degree of excellence that goes into our artefacts,

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that goes into the things that our ancestors made.

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So I think the museum should potentially give voice to give some labelling or to give some information from

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people who are opposed to those artefacts being there and why they think artefacts should not be there.

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So in other words, it's a bit tricky because you almost want to say here these artefacts, you're the people that made it, you're the descendants.

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Some of them agree that. Should be here. Some of them don't want this to be here,

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and this is why they don't want to be here to give the opposing view why these

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artefacts should be here and into the museum would then probably have to say,

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like, we acknowledge these things, but then this is why we're deciding to keep it here, though.

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So ultimately, try to offer two sides of the coin why the museum made that final decision.

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Maybe it's superfluous, you know, maybe it's going too much,

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but I think that might be helpful and it might be helpful right across the board for so many other different

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kinds of is the gift to give room for the dissenting voices about why the artefacts should all be returned.

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We've been learning a lot again in courses and as well with Muranga about dissenting voices and also

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about museum administrators being a little bit reticent to sort of have these voices presented,

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which is not really a tenable position going forward.

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Since more people are coming forward and this whole idea of transparency of history, it was always important.

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But it's becoming more and more well-known now where people want to have all viewpoints explored.

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Whereas, you know, for the Pitt rivers specifically, thus far there's been the Western British colonial voice,

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whereas now they're representing all of these different communities. They should have their voices there.

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And it's been really interesting working with Marenco as well to talk about sort of the idea of objects with agency,

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not just people who made these objects with agency, but how the objects themselves sort of have agency.

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So do you think that there is a way for the policy to present the idea of an object with agency?

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Because thus far, you know, the policy is very much focussed on the collectors and what the museum does with their collections,

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but it's not so much focussed on, OK, what do these collections do for themselves?

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And do you think that there's a way that the policy can better reflect that?

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I think I'm just going to give you guys a short answer for this one because I'm just so happy that you guys are already doing what you're doing.

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It's it's almost like I feel like if I do whatever I recommend,

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I think just based on what I've been hearing and what I've been reading and conversations that I've had with Miranda,

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if I say, Hey, you should do this, you should do that, then I think it seems like you folks would be like, Yes, we're getting there.

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Those things are already on the bench.

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So anything I have to recommend really already seems like that's the direction that you folks are already taking.

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I mean, like I said, the only other thing I was going to mention is what you're already doing,

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which is to then involve contemporary artists who are still making artefacts.

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We're still making objects is to include their work with their ancestral work.

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You guys are already doing that. So I would just say more of these art intervention pieces because, you know,

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contemporary art coming from a place is such an important way to reconnect that with the the ancient art that they came from that place as well.

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So long story short, you folks are already doing. I think one of the most important things, which is saying that this culture is not gone,

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it's not a was culture, it's it is culture and it's going to be culture.

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Yeah, contemporary artists and modern people's voices, people who are living now and are part of that culture and that heritage is so, so important.

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And that's, yeah, part of the work that I think we're trying to do here.

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So your perspective as a contemporary artist and having some of your work in the Pitt rivers

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or collaborating with the rivers in the policy when the policy refers to collecting pieces,

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even contemporary artworks,

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a lot of the focus and prioritisation or protection in a way is given to the collectors rather than the artists themselves.

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What is your opinion on that?

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How do you think the museum official policy can better protect and respect the artists who make all of the objects in the museum's collections?

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I think basically not speaking about the culture as if it were in the past tense some way to be able to involve the contemporary artists of the place.

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Maybe that would be the conversation is that how much space is allocated for every culture

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to have a modern representation present with all collections wherever it makes sense.

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Let's say you have a hundred and fifty different cultures represented. You may have 300.

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You may. You may have nine. I'm not quite sure how many or how you would categorise a different culture relative in whatever that criteria is.

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Boy, if you could have something contemporary whenever possible.

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Obviously, some cultures have turned into other cultures over millennia and millennia,

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and it's hard to say who's entered by the Indian today, you know? I probably totally distorting that the new policy really,

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really put much more emphasis on on the story of the place of contemporary artists that are making work.

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So it's there's so much good things that policies are working.

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Towards I couldn't quite give much more feedback other than what I just keep doing it and maybe try to get as much as much contemporary

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representation intermingled with it so that the viewer can kind of see a sense of continuity between the past and the present,

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as opposed to always thinking about things in the past. Yeah, it's been. We spoke this morning with Dr Bowditch, who's at the the U of T,

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and she was talking sort of a lot about how practise is very easy to change and because, you know, you just do it.

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And that's one of the things that the Pitt Rivers has been up to. But the policy that's currently implemented, it is open access.

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Everyone can see it. It's been it's been reviewed sort of every five years.

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But thus far, the only sort of mention of contemporary their practise is, you know,

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fantastic was that or at least it's as good as any museum in the beginnings of decolonisation can be.

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But so far, their policy, which any museum can see or anybody on the internet can see it only ever mentions

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contemporary artists very briefly in their sort of collections practise section.

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But the history of the museum is very much focussed on the British colonial administrator, the one who went and collected it.

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And I think in some sections they mentioned about 14 different people who actually collected them.

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But they don't mention any of the people who actually sort of made it.

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And they do refer, I think, to one colonial administrator as a distinguished colonial administrator,

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which is maybe not the word you want to use in conjunction with Colonial.

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Great. Great. Great, great. Great. Sounds to me like so much of that is almost like there's just some tweaks that need to be done in the terminology.

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I guess it's so close. It's so much more improved than it was even, I would guess, fifty years ago or 20 years ago.

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That's my guess. And the fact that you guys are asking these very questions means that it's only going to prove more.

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I'm so thrilled that you're happy with what the Pitt Rivers is doing because I know we can always do more,

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but I'm so thrilled that you're happy with it.

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If we were to rewrite and of course we will, because it's atrocious their history section, I can say that on the record.

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But if they were going to rewrite the history section with sort of a more nuanced understanding, how would you like to see Hawaii represented?

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Maybe the thing that I would reflect on and I really haven't come across this level of sensitivity through any, any kind of museum.

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I've worked with the Smithsonian. They're doing some good stuff.

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But this level of self-awareness, as far as the museum goes, the museum understanding its own legacy.

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It's an extension of the British Empire,

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and that whole conversation is so much that I feel really confident that whatever things get changed or whatever things get rewritten,

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particularly about what we are going to have a much deeper representation of indigenous and native voices and feedback.

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I feel really confident that that whatever you guys do come up with is going to

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really strongly reflect just based upon the questions you're already asking people,

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you know, whatever whatever they present is going to be really close to being fairly strongly representative of things that would be coming from very,

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very glad to hear it. Because like I said, there's a lot of horror stories, especially in North America,

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with the sort of indigenous engagement with museums not going very well or not being properly representative.

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And so you worked with the Smithsonian, which is super, super cool.

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I love that.

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And how did you find that their policies towards sort of representing indigenous cultures as being very present and alive compared to the rivers,

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I mean, might have to do a little tweaking on air with a Smithsonian there, but I would love to.

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I would love to know how the two experiences kind of compare it and how their policies better reflected that,

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or how ours could improve as well or practises if you're not familiar with the policy.

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Well, I would definitely. I would definitely speak directly to the the actual events that I've done with them.

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One series that I did in 2010, I believe, and it was at the museum for the Native American.

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It was called this transformer exhibit. What it was was I did a whole piece on Hawaiian futurism or Hawaiian science fiction,

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and they included that as a kind of an interventionist piece, talking about the status of the indigenous peoples of the Americas today.

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They did a whole piece about kind of indigenous futurism, which was really a lot of fun, right?

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Because it says native peoples are still alive.

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All these cultures are resurging, and that indigenous knowledge has application for mainstream audiences today.

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So sort of like the people that have been so oppressed, so to speak, have have wisdom to help the people that have been oppressing them.

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I mean, I aspire to see the time when we don't talk about things in terms of oppressor and the press,

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you know, victims and victimisers because, you know, ultimately, hopefully those will follow.

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Once enough time has passed, but the dusty ceiling,

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as has happened and what's enough understanding conversations have happened between different cultures.

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I then went on and did a couple other events called Cultural Labs.

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One of them was in Manhattan and another one was in Honolulu. And this was in 2016 and 2017,

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and the whole thing was the US speaking about Asian Pacific Islander cultures being on the

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cutting edge of a lot of different kinds of social sciences and different things like that.

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Smithsonian puts a lot of work in striking about culture as a living,

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breathing thing that you can interact with, that you're going to be surprised by that.

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There are so many more parts to a culture than we get a chance to see.

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And that often giving the opportunity for cultures themselves to speak through their contemporary audiences through their contemporary artists.

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As far as Hawaii, for example, I can now share my culture in all kinds of new ways.

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But again, I'm always very interested in science fiction and fantasy and all these different things so I can talk about my

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Hawaiian culture in these new genre that allows them to get to people who like science fiction about the sea,

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for example. Or as the work I did with Pitt Rivers was,

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I did a deep dive Hawaiian mythology and my take on one part of Hawaii mythology that wasn't really quite explored.

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But I'm given the freedom as an indigenous person to say I'm continuing the work of my ancestors.

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This is a continuation of what was done a thousand years ago.

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I'm continuing to do it today. And, you know, having whole exhibits based upon viewing indigenous culture,

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moving into the future and giving the opportunity for indigenous peoples to share wisdom that has immediate application for contemporary audiences.

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So the Smithsonian put a whole whole event all around,

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showing how indigenous wisdom has application for contemporary audiences so the peer reviewers can do something similar,

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obviously, but not quite on the scale of Smithsonian.

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And you folks already are in a respect that I'm having the opportunity to share my work and to share with you folks today.

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It's so great to hear that your experience with the Pitt Rivers has been so good.

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And I think that's also why we think it's very important that the policy the official Pitt Rivers policy

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reflects the practises that the Pitt Rivers is implementing now that we're sort of striving for.

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Yeah, there's an interesting community sort of partnership that the Pitt Rivers has with the with the Haida in B.C.

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I'm not entirely sure of the entire logistics of it,

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but the gist of it is that a group of Haida come to the rivers to sort of observe their ancestors culture.

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Do you see sort of a programme like that being written into the museum's policies thus far?

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There's no real sort of opportunity for engagement written into the policies, especially when, of course, the progress is so far away from Hawaii.

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So do you see sort of a way that the Pitt Rivers could include that in their policies,

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a programme or a set policy where Indigenous Hawaiians, who do want to come to the museum and engage with their artefacts be paid to do so.

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Or if there are ways that the policy could sort of include that a little bit better actual like physical engagement?

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Absolutely. I think that if there could be, you know, whether it would be something on a smaller scale than what the Smithsonian does,

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but like an opportunity for kind of like a space or time for native peoples to gather and share kind of like a cultural workshop or a culture lab,

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kind of the thing where they invite, you know, throughout the year,

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either guests or they have it as part of a big workshop or a big event where you have individuals,

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people who works are at the museum be present to do cultural engagement on some form.

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But I think the happy medium is I'm doing zoom conversations, you know, and having,

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you know, presentations where you can physically five people there then as well.

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You could just, you know, we could have these sort of conversations with the partner, their audience, the folks that would visit the museum.

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But I think I would love to come and visit. So I'd be, I mean, like, I think, every opportunity to go to England.

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But yeah, I think that there is a there's definitely that opportunity.

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And for some reason,

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there's something that's coming up in my mind now that I'm just going to mention that if there's some way for there to be some kind of connexion,

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whether this is an event or whether this is something that is a collaboration, maybe this is what's in my mind right now.

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Immediately, I'm thinking, like,

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what would be wonderful would be for there to be some kind of a collaboration with indigenous artists could be a miracle.

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It could be some kind of a piece or something or some kind of a. Is that having a conversation about the indigenous needs of the peoples of England?

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You go back two thousand years. Right. You go back two thousand years and England, right?

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You have you have people that were they were island people, right?

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It's a big island, but it's an island that island culture, right?

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So finding some kind of a cool way to remind the British audience, the British public, that when we talk about the land, we talk about the oceans,

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when we talk about our call,

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our gods and our belief systems allowed us to live in relative harmony with each other and our natural ecosystems where the River Museum is.

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I mean, you go back a thousand years, you have examples,

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you have examples of people we're living who made their clothes, who know where their clothes come from, you know?

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So maybe what I would love to see is for the Pitt Rivers to actually look at the

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idea that indigenous and indigenous wisdom is right outside the front door.

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And that would be wonderful to actually have the focus on having native people come to and worked

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with folks who consider themselves to be connected with England's indigenous cultures and practises.

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So something to say that actually to almost get the distinguished collector part of English culture, move that aside and actually say,

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we want to connect indigenous to remind that all of these artefacts that we see come from a different parts of the world.

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It would be wonderful to have them connect with ancient England.

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Ancient Hopi, ancient England need to meet up so that we that would be kind of a fun thing.

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Well, I think the US has always been sort of taking suggestions, but as of right now on this podcast, we're taking suggestions and I love that,

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especially since in the policy in particular,

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there's not really there's a big separation between what is sort of considered to be indigenous and what is considered to be modern.

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So there's not really it's a fairly big divide that they try and put forward that if something is indigenous, it cannot also be modern.

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So what I absolutely love about that is it's sort of breaking down the whole idea of modernity

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entirely and bringing it into just we all have this sort of connexion through our land to each other.

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And if we take away all of sort of qualifying factors that the museum tries to impose on us, there's a lot of similarities.

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And I I just love that I think it's what the museum really should be all about, and also that indigenous cultures are not dead.

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They're not in the past. They are also modern. Absolutely.

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You know, just try to simplify it as much as possible. And my I mean, I know oversimplification is dangerous because then we lose things.

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But it's sometimes it's easier to fit it into our pocket because easier to kind of remember these simple ideas.

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And to me, I've been meditating on this a lot is that contemporary cultures, modern cultures,

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we seem to be able to solve all kinds of problems like we can solve technological problems.

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But there's one major problem that we have been working on for millennia,

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and native cultures have found a way to work through this, which is ego, greed, the desire to covet or conquer.

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There's all these things that are happening on current events right now.

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You know, you have all of these wars that are happening in our world today, and we don't understand what it means to be human.

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Now we understand how to build buildings. We know how to make aeroplanes.

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But it seems like the things that live in the buildings and the things that fly in the aeroplanes, we don't know what they are.

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So it's almost like modern cultures can solve all of these modern issues.

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But native people needed to do what Hawaiians needed to do was you can, for example, you can have a great canoe.

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But if everybody on the canoe is fighting with each other and they don't know how to get along, that canoe isn't going to go anywhere.

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So I think native cultures have solutions for the human conundrum.

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How did ancient cultures, what are ancient laws, what the ancient laws look like, what the ancient societal systems look like,

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maybe including that part of the conversation understanding what it means to be human is something that we're woefully behind.

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If compassion is a technology, you know, we're way behind on that.

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We're advancing in all these other areas except for what it means to be human.

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And again, I think that's where the understanding ancient cultures and how they lived,

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if they lived in harmony and how they lived in harmony is an important lesson that we can take.

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And generally speaking, you know, these beautiful artefacts we can infer from these artefacts the help of the culture that the artefacts came from.

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Beautiful art came from times eras in societies when there was peace.

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Right? Not always, obviously, but.

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Societies are in relative peace. The artists have time to work.

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You know, it's a big, broad ideas and hopefully some parts of these are useful, of course.

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And I think that pretty well leads into the one final thing that I sort of wanted to ask about is that the policy,

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as it stands, it's very clinical, it's very object focussed and even colonial focussed.

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But it doesn't sort of take into account what you're talking about, sort of the emotional and the human connexion and the side of that.

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So can you tell us a little bit,

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how do you think the policy can account for that and how important that it is for museums to sort of be places of emotion and spirituality as well?

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Well, I would love to see perhaps maybe some opportunity for some virtual reality the idea of image maps rooms.

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So having over and projected on all four walls would be what it would be like to be an ancient Hawaii.

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You know, a thousand years ago, you're on the beach, you look around,

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you're looking at the land and you're looking at healthy rich soils, you're looking at amazing coconut groves and everything.

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And then you're looking at the ocean.

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You see, I look at the ocean, you'd see all the canoes that are going out there and you're and you're saying like,

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this is an example of a healthy culture. And this is what it looks like when a when a people of that help and that, you know,

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may be sitting next to you or just off on the wall or somebody and they're making an artefact,

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you know, they're making copper and you see that they're smiling and they're having a conversation with somebody and it's like,

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you get to be an astral Voyager or you get to be a time traveller and you get to sit down and then you hear the noises

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and maybe there's a little perfume or something smells like some of our native flowers was wafting through that.

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But if that isn't as feasible, or I mean, if that is something that has, that is as doable sooner.

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I love dioramas, you know, having little scenes and museums do this right.

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They'll have like the village diorama. You kind to see all the little people.

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But that would look like that may not be as strong as an immersive space.

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And talking about this idea of what it was like for a native person pre contact before anyone to write to, it's kind of like to interrupt a culture.

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What did the culture look like and what did it feel like for those native people when their worldview was healthy,

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right when they were in their space and when they were in their time? I think something like that would be wonderful,

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and for that to be sort of a rotating exhibit where there's different cultures are represented at different times

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of the year and you get basically a day in the life of what it was like for those indigenous people to be born,

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to live and to die in a time when they knew who they were, they knew why they were.

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They knew how they were. They knew when they were, you know, they did what they were, why they were.

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But it's a better way. It kind of put things back into context that the museum is not storytelling, right?

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It becomes that the museum is like a stage. It becomes a platform for the native people to speak for themselves.

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It's important to have a platform, but it's important to have a stage.

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It's important for these stories to be shared around the world, and I personally think, you know,

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when I think about how information gets shared, I look at our native plants and I look at plants.

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In general, plants make lots of lots and lots of seeds, and they're not too picky about who's going to share their seeds.

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If people want to take my seeds, go for it, because if I share my seeds, I know I'm going to live on.

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So just based upon that simple principle, I believe cultures need to be shared and perpetuated.

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But that plant also needs to be taken care of, and we have to take care of the plants we have at the same time.

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Prepare for the new plants, giving people an experience of a day in the life of an indigenous person that where the artefacts

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came from that put the artefacts back and you're actually putting them back virtually.

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You put the artefacts back virtually because you're actually taking the person from the museum and

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you're bringing the person to the place as opposed to just bringing the objects to the people.

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That would be a wonderful next step, I think, is to have immersive experiences that let the culture speak for itself.

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I think that's such a great point. That's also something that we talked about in one of our other interviews with Julian Zahida,

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artist about this more immersive experience with artefacts,

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with the museum's collections and sort of having that interaction with them so that they're not just behind glass windows and

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how that more respects the objects agency and then lets it speak for itself and helps the culture also live and be perpetuated.

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Yeah. Awesome. And even. That's the augmented reality.

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I guess there's all these different ways you could use to do it,

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but you it by holding up your phone or something and you cease and actually a native person there in your museum making couple or making something.

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So, yeah, any any way that it's doable, any way that it's possible, it would be wonderful for that to be the next, the next stage and understanding.

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Awesome. Well, we want to thank you just so much for coming to talk to us today.

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I've learnt a whole lot and it's been so nice to meet you and thank you for a lot of very poignant stuff that we can use for this podcast.

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It's just been so fantastic. Yes, thank you so much.

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Absolutely my pleasure. So nice to meet you. Thanks to you all. Take care.

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Aloha. That was the Rivers Museum's Matters of Policy podcast produced by Betty Woodhouse.

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Yet Boom Snake Man Alexis Boyer and Bobble Hat Sound Music by Jack Forcett.

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Voiceover Baiju who let a special thank you to Muranga Thompson, Iceland and the Millet Exchange.