1 00:00:04,790 --> 00:00:13,770 Welcome to the Rivers Museums. 2 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:21,690 Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy, 3 00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:33,150 speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy. 4 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:35,190 Hi, I'm Yip, and today I'm joining Meghan. 5 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:43,320 Today, Yip and I will be interviewing Gina Borromeo and Jan Howard, who are both curators at the Rhode Island School of Design Museum of Art. 6 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:51,000 They are heavily involved in resources decolonisation process and are working to repatriate a benign bronze in resources collection. 7 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,020 And I'd like to do a land acknowledgement as I am on indigenous land today. 8 00:00:55,020 --> 00:01:01,530 So I am a white settler of Celtic and British descent living on Treaty one territory in Winnipeg, Manitoba, 9 00:01:01,530 --> 00:01:11,580 the traditional lands of the Anishinaabe in a new Ojibwe and a new cree ogy, cree DNA and Dakota peoples, as well as the birthplace of the nation. 10 00:01:11,580 --> 00:01:19,830 I acknowledge that our past history of colonialism and genocide continue to deeply harm indigenous communities in the land now called Canada. 11 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:23,490 I am committed to listening to indigenous people through my work in cultural 12 00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:27,840 institutions and learning as much as I can in order to move forward with truth, 13 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,570 reconciliation and restitution. I guess we'll begin with sort of asking you both to tell us a little bit about your 14 00:01:33,570 --> 00:01:38,280 experiences with both sort of museum decolonisation and policy and most importantly, 15 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,020 what you do. I'm Jan Howard. I'm the curator for prints, drawings and photographs here at the museum. 16 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:51,720 I'm Gina Armijo. I am the chief curator at the museum, but also the curator of ancient art. 17 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,350 And I would like to offer a land acknowledgement. 18 00:01:55,350 --> 00:02:04,410 The Rhode Island School of Design is built on what is now called College Hill, part of the ancestral homeland of the Narragansett nation. 19 00:02:04,410 --> 00:02:12,360 Indigenous people from many nations near and far live study and work in Providence today. 20 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:20,490 This museum staff are committed to actively addressing the many violent legacies of colonialism in our daily work. 21 00:02:20,490 --> 00:02:27,480 The amplification of native voices and histories is crucial to rectifying the destructive past, 22 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:36,990 and we gratefully acknowledge the ongoing critical contributions of indigenous people across our state, region and nation. 23 00:02:36,990 --> 00:02:45,510 So thank you for allowing me to do that. I think it's just important to let people know that we are on the ancestral lands of 24 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:54,570 people who were in this space long before America became a nation in terms of our work. 25 00:02:54,570 --> 00:03:05,850 Gemini, where actually I would say, pulled into the work of the deaccessioning and restitution eventual restitution of the Oba. 26 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:12,840 And I think that I'd like to begin by just talking about how we really use our documents 27 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:20,550 regarding documents like the collection management policy here at the museum to guide our work. 28 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:31,230 And it's we relied really on two particular passages in our collections management policy to allow us to work towards the exception in the head. 29 00:03:31,230 --> 00:03:41,670 So the first passage in our policy that we cited in deaccessioning yet was under the general considerations affecting all acquisitions. 30 00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:49,200 And it specifically says that the museum will not acquire any object that, to the knowledge of the museum, 31 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:59,790 has been stolen or illegally exported from its country of modern discovery or the country of most recent legal ownership. 32 00:03:59,790 --> 00:04:05,490 And then our policy further states that if, after subsequent review, 33 00:04:05,490 --> 00:04:12,720 the museum discovers that it has acquired an object in violation of its stated acquisition policy, 34 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,840 then the museum will seek to determine the rightful owner and to pursue appropriate resolution. 35 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:29,640 And that's the main passage that we went by. And then the second one is relating to special provenance concerns, and this is section two point three. 36 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:36,450 And this section notes that an object discovered to have the provenance inconsistent with the 37 00:04:36,450 --> 00:04:44,250 museum's policy may be returned to its country of origin or restituted to its former owner, 38 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:52,740 provided that such action is consistent with Christie's legal and fiduciary duties in the public's interest. 39 00:04:52,740 --> 00:04:57,240 So those are what we apply to the exception of the head of. 40 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:04,140 So one other thing I wanted to add was that we have slowly like you. 41 00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:09,140 We are in the process of reviewing our collections management policy and. 42 00:05:09,140 --> 00:05:20,360 We are in the process at risk of folding our anti-racist plan or a work document into the collections management policy. 43 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,540 And in fact, item number one in this section, 44 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:32,780 the session the head of an Oba by the end of twenty twenty was really part of our anti-racist action plan, 45 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:39,560 so we were really abiding by a written policy in our work here. 46 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:45,680 More recently, this and I think this is something that I think it's just the past year that we've had this 47 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:53,210 anti-racist work plan that we actually have on our website and we have it's a fairly long document. 48 00:05:53,210 --> 00:06:04,010 I think ten pages or so of actionable items of work throughout the institution, and there's a kind of check off of what we're getting done. 49 00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:12,950 So we're really held accountable to the work. You know, it's it dovetails really being within an institution within the college as a whole. 50 00:06:12,950 --> 00:06:19,520 And you know, we're all looking at how we can be an institution that is anti-racist. 51 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,540 It's helping all of our work go forward. 52 00:06:21,540 --> 00:06:29,030 And we've always had the support of, I would say, the staff throughout the institution has always been very much behind. 53 00:06:29,030 --> 00:06:37,100 The restitution of the building had been open and has really kept in and accountable along the way as well. 54 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:46,040 Fantastic. Thanks. Thanks for talking about how how the policies of the Rhode Island School of Design have guided your decolonisation efforts. 55 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:52,580 I was wondering, could you also say something about how the arised policies compare to those of the very first museum? 56 00:06:52,580 --> 00:06:59,810 If you're aware with those. Yeah, it was interesting to look at your policy, especially as we're reviewing ours at the same time. 57 00:06:59,810 --> 00:07:05,900 And of course, we're both guided by national laws and international treaties and conventions. 58 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:14,000 And in the United States, we also have standards set out by the American Association of Museums and the Association of Art Museum Directors. 59 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:22,790 And as we just noted this policy that we have the work plan for the anti-racist work so both externally and internally. 60 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:31,130 But we both have people that we speak to. I think it's really wonderful that you started these conversations around your plan to also invite outside 61 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:36,510 voices to review what you're doing and what you're thinking about for your collections development plan. 62 00:07:36,510 --> 00:07:42,500 I'd say what's changing within our work on this collection management plan is that in the past, 63 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:50,240 that would have been a plan that we would have reviewed with our curators and our registrars and perhaps our senior staff and, 64 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,330 you know, the oversight committees of the museum. 65 00:07:53,330 --> 00:08:01,880 But today, because of this anti-racist work plan that we have, we have many task force across the institution now looking at various kinds of work. 66 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,730 And the collection management plan is one of these task force. 67 00:08:04,730 --> 00:08:11,270 And within the task force, there are representatives from all departments, maybe not every department in each task force, 68 00:08:11,270 --> 00:08:17,060 but anyone really interested in that particular topic can come to it and bring their point of view. 69 00:08:17,060 --> 00:08:23,960 And so we will have very different kinds of voices brought into this conversation on our own this time, just as you are. 70 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:30,530 One of the things I noticed that is different about our two policies is that we both talk about, 71 00:08:30,530 --> 00:08:35,300 you know, we can't acquire things that we don't have clear title to that. 72 00:08:35,300 --> 00:08:43,400 But in the Pitt Rivers Museum policy, I didn't notice anything as Gina just referenced that talks about what you would do 73 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,870 when you find something in the collection that should have never been acquired. 74 00:08:47,870 --> 00:08:53,980 So it seems that language like that might be something that is being considered in the future. 75 00:08:53,980 --> 00:08:57,230 You know, we will be looking very closely, you know, 76 00:08:57,230 --> 00:09:05,480 as we go through this development review to find out or to see where we need to be proactive, especially when we're looking at provenance work. 77 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,380 I think, you know, we we have to be proactive today. 78 00:09:09,380 --> 00:09:14,720 And of course, staffing does limit, you know, how much you can do at any one time. 79 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:21,860 We right now are focussed on our indigenous American collections from the North that, 80 00:09:21,860 --> 00:09:26,240 you know, the polar regions, you know, both of us, everything in between. 81 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,330 But that's a huge task to take on in and of itself. 82 00:09:29,330 --> 00:09:36,470 Those are areas we don't have curators, and so we are focussed right now on Native American work, really looking very closely. 83 00:09:36,470 --> 00:09:42,680 We recently were able to hire a Henry Luce curatorial fellow for Native American art, sending Brown. 84 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:46,670 She's just been with us a few weeks and in this short time she's been with us. 85 00:09:46,670 --> 00:09:49,800 She's really been reviewing our collections and our policies. 86 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:58,400 And I would say having a native voice in the museum has already been really a wonderful perspective for us to have, 87 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,230 even though we have talked with many people in the past to have someone working side by side with 88 00:10:03,230 --> 00:10:08,710 us every day is going to make a huge difference than just hearing from her recently and her. 89 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:14,770 First kind of reflections on the collection has been amazing and so, so valued, 90 00:10:14,770 --> 00:10:22,990 and I would just say one of the thing that we noticed and I think what came to our realisation when we were working on the 91 00:10:22,990 --> 00:10:31,690 restitution of the head of an Oba is that when there was a protest calling for its restitution here in the fall of 2018, 92 00:10:31,690 --> 00:10:38,800 and that really made us understand that the work we do around provenance is something that is typically behind the scenes and invisible, 93 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,890 so people don't know when we are considering these issues and the work that we're doing on them. 94 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:50,180 You know, and I think in the past we have felt, you know, we were often still working things out, didn't have all the answers. 95 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:57,490 And so it was hard to put that work forward. But now we realise it's important to have it there, no matter what stage we are in the process. 96 00:10:57,490 --> 00:11:02,650 And so we now have a page on our website that talks about provenance work we're doing. 97 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:08,020 I mean, we still have more work to do, but at least it's, you know, we're making it more visible now. 98 00:11:08,020 --> 00:11:15,310 No, that is excellent. And of course, we've been thinking a lot with Muranga and the other interns about transparency and 99 00:11:15,310 --> 00:11:19,240 how are people going to know that this work is happening if we don't tell them? 100 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:24,130 So museums being active voices in the community and also active about what they're 101 00:11:24,130 --> 00:11:28,330 doing is not only helpful to sort of let people know that the museum is on their side, 102 00:11:28,330 --> 00:11:31,570 but it's good for the museum to interact with the community as well. 103 00:11:31,570 --> 00:11:38,370 And I think that's fantastic. And I think also referring back to what you were saying earlier at the beginning of the response, 104 00:11:38,370 --> 00:11:46,630 I think it's really a valid point where you said, like the artist policy seems to be be way more working in retrospect. 105 00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:53,740 While see pyramid policies only future oriented, it's about we will not acquire objects in this way. 106 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:58,330 But it doesn't say anything about objects that were already acquired in a problematic way. 107 00:11:58,330 --> 00:12:03,250 And I think that's something really interesting to note in rewriting the PRM policies. 108 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:04,510 So thanks for pointing that out. 109 00:12:04,510 --> 00:12:16,750 No, I think what I noticed as well is that the listing policy is a bit more specific when it comes to reasons for deaccessioning. 110 00:12:16,750 --> 00:12:17,920 Perhaps, you know, 111 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:27,700 those two passages that I cited to you were things that really was very important to us with that those it would have been difficult to really 112 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:38,230 deal with colonial era objects because we have nothing specifically in our policy that speaks to objects acquired during the colonial era. 113 00:12:38,230 --> 00:12:43,270 So we talk about things that are important to American museums, 114 00:12:43,270 --> 00:12:53,080 such as NAC rather than Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, and also the well-known laws regarding antiquities. 115 00:12:53,080 --> 00:13:00,880 But, you know, art collected in Africa during the colonial period is not something that our that our policy covered in the past, 116 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:09,220 but thankfully we had these two little sentences that allowed us to pursue its accession. 117 00:13:09,220 --> 00:13:16,510 And sort of the next question that we wanted to talk to you about is a bit similar to this, particularly when it comes to policy. 118 00:13:16,510 --> 00:13:22,990 But what were some of the most significant barriers that you found to restitution and decolonisation? 119 00:13:22,990 --> 00:13:30,310 And particularly, do you find that being an art museum or a university art museum makes this easier at the Pitt Rivers? 120 00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:33,370 Of course, anyone who's going to listen to this from Oxford might correct me, 121 00:13:33,370 --> 00:13:40,000 but sometimes I get the sense that being University Museum at Oxford makes it a little bit more difficult to engage in those processes. 122 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:49,270 So how do you feel about that in regards to Aristide? Well, I think I'll start first talking about, you know, maybe our internal processes, 123 00:13:49,270 --> 00:13:53,230 and I would say, you know, it was a learning curve for all of us. 124 00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:59,980 And you know, one of the things I think that was helpful to us in the process was to start speaking early 125 00:13:59,980 --> 00:14:06,490 on with our committee that reviews acquisitions and the acquisition and the accessions, 126 00:14:06,490 --> 00:14:13,570 as well as our board of governors. Even before we understood the path that we might need to take. 127 00:14:13,570 --> 00:14:20,770 But just to begin to talk to them because there were a lot of questions, and I think we had to work through those questions together. 128 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:26,050 And so we spent quite a long time, you know, many, many months thinking through these things. 129 00:14:26,050 --> 00:14:29,050 When we first began these conversations with them, 130 00:14:29,050 --> 00:14:37,030 it was just at the beginning when the Benin Dialogue Group began to announce that they were going to be lending some work slack. 131 00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:40,840 And it was just when the essence of our report came out. 132 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,640 So it wasn't so clear that people were going to be returning things yet. 133 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:53,920 And so there wasn't a lot of, you know, today there might be more support just in the press, you know, with this kind of work. 134 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:59,290 I think it might be easier to do at this moment than it was just a few years ago when we started. 135 00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:03,130 So there were a lot of questions that I think we're important for us to talk through 136 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:08,200 with these committees to all get to a point where we were all comfortable in. 137 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:17,170 With all the questions being answered, and, you know, even if we didn't know the exact path moving forward for how it would be restituted, 138 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:20,690 it became clear that it shouldn't be in our collection. 139 00:15:20,690 --> 00:15:28,210 So we were able to at least deaccessioning until we could find the correct path for its repatriation. 140 00:15:28,210 --> 00:15:34,420 And that that is one of the challenges today because it's sometimes not clear exactly how to do that. 141 00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:39,790 Who exactly it should be returned to. And sometimes they're not our questions to answer. 142 00:15:39,790 --> 00:15:44,720 So we have to be patient and let those processes play out. 143 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,980 It's kind of the point we are at that particular point, but you know, 144 00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:55,300 you might want to speak to our role within the institution of Bristol as a whole, the road and the school design. 145 00:15:55,300 --> 00:16:03,670 I think Jan explained our process quite well and the challenges associated with the conversation itself, 146 00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:11,920 really drawing our oversight committees into the discussion and making them aware that these are issues we have to deal with. 147 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:19,750 But I'd like to turn first to your question about whether being in the University Art Museum makes, 148 00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:25,840 you know, work as repatriation and decolonisation easier. 149 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:34,690 And in a way, I would say that it does only because there's often a buy in from both in university circles. 150 00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:46,390 It's, I would say, almost a given that people are thinking about these issues in academia and thinking about rectifying practises of the past. 151 00:16:46,390 --> 00:16:50,440 So for example, just to cite a little example, 152 00:16:50,440 --> 00:17:00,280 the reason this the head of a nova has been on view so many times in the past several years is because teachers, 153 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:08,380 professors at Brown have requested that it be on view for courses they were teaching on global art history 154 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:16,630 or for discussions that they may have about colonialism and the building of university collections. 155 00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:25,510 And so although we don't have an African art curator on staff or a significant collection of African art, 156 00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:30,520 this one object has made its way to different galleries within the museum. 157 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,860 It's been in the European galleries with other works from the same day. 158 00:17:35,860 --> 00:17:40,210 It's also been, believe it or not, in the Greek and Roman galleries that I curate, 159 00:17:40,210 --> 00:17:47,440 where I have placed it next to other works that were made using the lost wax casting method. 160 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:54,630 And then it is found its home in a gallery that deals with questions of imperialism and colonialism. 161 00:17:54,630 --> 00:18:05,950 And I think that's where it is most comfortable. But I think that fear is there is something about working in an environment where 162 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:12,500 people believe strongly in that desired outcome that propels the work forward. 163 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:20,050 So as Jan mentioned earlier, it was not only the museum staff's desire to excel in this piece, 164 00:18:20,050 --> 00:18:25,690 but it also became an institutional goal for the Rhode Island School of Design itself. 165 00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:29,620 So not only was the museum very happy to take this on, 166 00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:37,270 but it became one of those key projects that the university, the art school itself wanted to do. 167 00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:43,810 And so our staff and people in the university constantly wanted updates, and as Jan said, 168 00:18:43,810 --> 00:18:49,510 they held us accountable and we had to keep doing the work so that I felt was very helpful. 169 00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:57,250 But in terms of challenges, also regarding work with the colonising the museum, 170 00:18:57,250 --> 00:19:09,490 I think that one of the biggest challenges is just speaking from our particular instance is the the quality may be off the record keeping in the past. 171 00:19:09,490 --> 00:19:13,270 I'm sure other museums, which have very old collections, 172 00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:22,480 have the same issue where you essentially have to redo the provenance work because it was never really recorded to begin with. 173 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:29,410 Right. So there's a lot of backlog that one has to do in the recordkeeping, 174 00:19:29,410 --> 00:19:37,450 but also the enormity of the tasks that are associated with decolonising museum collection. 175 00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:43,810 I mean, there are lots of issues to untangle within the collections, like there's ancient art, 176 00:19:43,810 --> 00:19:52,420 there's indigenous art, there's art acquired during the colonial era, there's Nazi era loot and all this work. 177 00:19:52,420 --> 00:19:55,750 All this provenance work is time consuming, 178 00:19:55,750 --> 00:20:05,320 and small institutions like ours don't have the staffing that is required for all this work or really the budget. 179 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:14,260 And so we run up against that. Challenge. And then there's also the prison, and it waxes and wanes, 180 00:20:14,260 --> 00:20:23,740 but it's the it's also associated with trying to change or influence long-held views about 181 00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:30,190 what belongs in a museum collection and what constitutes legal acquisition of an object. 182 00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:35,200 So, you know, the legal has to be weighed against the ethical and the moral. 183 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,620 So I think those are those are all challenges and it's all we've been to the worst. 184 00:20:41,620 --> 00:20:48,880 Thanks. I think many of the challenges you've brought up here are also things Typekit River struggles with, such as limited staffing and funds. 185 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,090 You know, from my perspective, the Big Rivers look really big. 186 00:20:52,090 --> 00:20:59,140 But in fact, it is one of the smaller institutions, especially when compared to some of the national museums in the UK. 187 00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:08,260 So it's great to talk to museums facing similar challenges and hear how museums like Christie are responding to such barriers. 188 00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:17,440 Yes, so next, we wants to discuss accessibility of collections and providing access to the public because as you've written a creepy, 189 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,910 it extensively discusses the idea of reaching out to the widest possible public. 190 00:21:21,910 --> 00:21:30,730 We want to ask what it means to you and what providing wide ranging access to objects or belongings and tilting your views, 191 00:21:30,730 --> 00:21:35,500 as well as asking how far museums should go to provide such access. 192 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:39,790 Yeah, I've always felt risky. I've been here a little over 20 years now. 193 00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:45,070 It took a long time, but I worked in several other museums before and I always felt risky was made 194 00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:49,210 their collections more accessible than any institution I'd been a part of, 195 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:53,020 only because especially being part of a teaching institution, 196 00:21:53,020 --> 00:22:00,940 I felt curators and educators really bend over backwards to make sure that people have access to not just objects but to records. 197 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:07,210 And, you know, I think we're very forthcoming that way. But the institution is almost one hundred and fifty years old now, 198 00:22:07,210 --> 00:22:13,090 and from the beginning, it always had a mandate to be accessible to a wide audience. 199 00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:20,170 It was always as much about the community and actually as had community support for its history as it 200 00:22:20,170 --> 00:22:27,370 is about the academic community because it being a school for the education of artists and designers. 201 00:22:27,370 --> 00:22:32,050 It was important that there be an audience who would understand the work that was being produced here. 202 00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:39,300 So to have collections where we could educate the public was was a very important part of its mission from the beginning. 203 00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:42,280 And we, of course, in today's world, 204 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:49,870 we can try to be accessible to an even greater audience across the world through digital means, and that's something we love. 205 00:22:49,870 --> 00:22:55,810 It can be a more democratic way of getting our collections across to people who can't travel here, 206 00:22:55,810 --> 00:23:02,110 and we'd like to make all of our really knowledge and imagery available as widely 207 00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:07,510 as possible and free and then just to make that as easily accessible as possible. 208 00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:14,290 But we realised that we still have a lot of challenges when it comes to making people in our immediate community welcome in the museum. 209 00:23:14,290 --> 00:23:20,590 It is a very Eurocentric collection. Our displays have been that for its history. 210 00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:29,800 So we are gradually shifting and trying to work in ways that make the presentations in the galleries have narratives that are appealing to 211 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:39,010 a wider audience who are trying to shift the collections so that we have greater representation of artists who are black or indigenous. 212 00:23:39,010 --> 00:23:42,850 We're artists of colour, more women, more queer artist. 213 00:23:42,850 --> 00:23:49,060 So many different stories that have traditionally been less represented, trying to make them far more visible in our galleries. 214 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:55,490 So that's something that I think may help as we continue to try to reach new audiences. 215 00:23:55,490 --> 00:24:01,510 But we realise that some things in our art galleries sometimes do offend and we do talk with our audience. 216 00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:05,590 We have conversations Gina may want to talk about the way we have. 217 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:15,430 Our mummy currently presented is we changed recently to meet the discomfort that was felt by people who are coming into the institution searching. 218 00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:21,850 I don't know if you want to talk about that for a minute. Oh, thanks, Jen. I will just do it a couple of minutes to it. 219 00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:27,310 So, you know, for the longest time, at least in U.S. collections, 220 00:24:27,310 --> 00:24:33,820 having a mummy as part of your collection meant that you were a certain kind of museum 221 00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:39,310 that you had a collection that spanned various cultures and and for the longest time, 222 00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:48,220 also the possession of an Egyptian mummy was considered the one aspect that that showed you had an Egyptian collection. 223 00:24:48,220 --> 00:25:00,520 And so you did have a mummy on view, and it was the mummy of a man named Nazanin, and he had been on view since he was acquired in the late thirties. 224 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:11,740 But based on a discussion that was held in the gallery by two people, a professor of anthropology and a professor of criminal justice, 225 00:25:11,740 --> 00:25:19,420 actually, he was of Coptic origin and who felt very strongly that Nisman was her ancestor. 226 00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:30,820 We began to think about the various ways in which consent, discomfort, ethical displays of human bodies, 227 00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:41,110 whether a human body was a work of art or not, and whether we wouldn't show whether it was crime to show a human body in the museum. 228 00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:52,810 And we began to ask ourselves questions like we would never show a Native American body in this way what makes an Egyptian mummy different? 229 00:25:52,810 --> 00:26:00,860 So we began to really question the long held views that mummies taught you all about Egyptian burial and every other thing. 230 00:26:00,860 --> 00:26:07,120 So essentially, we came to the conclusion that you can still teach about. 231 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:17,170 Egyptian religious beliefs without actually showing the mummy continued to be contained in his coffin and still educate us 232 00:26:17,170 --> 00:26:28,060 about preservation and that about making a safe passage to the afterlife by discussing the images from the coffin itself. 233 00:26:28,060 --> 00:26:38,240 Now, ideally, you know, this burial would never have been disturbed and this man would still be resting peacefully in his team in Egypt. 234 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,030 But that is not the case anymore, and he is in providence. 235 00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:51,250 He is enjoying an afterlife that I'm sure he never envisioned. But at least his body is not argue for everyone to see. 236 00:26:51,250 --> 00:27:02,410 He's safely within his his coffin again. So in that one instance, we really did listen to our visitors and listen to them when they said, you know, 237 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:08,950 it's actually really shocking to come into contact with human remains when you're not expecting them. 238 00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:18,850 And also, it's somewhat disrespectful to come into contact with human remains of someone you feel could be your ancestor. 239 00:27:18,850 --> 00:27:30,940 And so we began to really think about how our displays inadvertently hurt our visitors, and we became very conscious of these questions. 240 00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:38,560 And so I think if I could just move away from that a little bit and had just a little something to what Jan had been 241 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:48,730 discussing really well regarding our collection and opening up our museum practise to other to other participants. 242 00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:55,150 I think I could speak more specifically about the curatorial practise and how we open that up, 243 00:27:55,150 --> 00:28:03,280 not just to our education staff who know what people want to know about in the course of their teaching from the collections. 244 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:15,940 But also we we have made checking in with the community during our planning process for exhibitions part of the way we plan exhibitions to begin with. 245 00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:24,460 We also have recently included one of our curators included the Vista Art Circle in 246 00:28:24,460 --> 00:28:30,160 getting them to select or recommend works that would resonate with them when they look. 247 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,310 That works in the Asian collection. These are our teens. 248 00:28:33,310 --> 00:28:45,680 So a young audience, very young, not quite 18 yet, but they felt that their concerns and interests were not really being represented in the museum. 249 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:53,380 So they worked with the curator to propose objects that they felt spoke to their, to their world and to their worldview. 250 00:28:53,380 --> 00:29:00,640 So I thought that was really good. And then also, we have educator liaisons as part of every exhibition team. 251 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:07,420 So we we try to work as cross department to lead as possible. 252 00:29:07,420 --> 00:29:13,960 I would say our educators have been very important in driving our work forward in recent years, 253 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:23,170 and I think we wouldn't be as far along as we are without them because they do have such a close connexion with our audience. 254 00:29:23,170 --> 00:29:26,620 It's been helpful for us as curators to go on tour with them to see the 255 00:29:26,620 --> 00:29:31,180 challenges they face with the kinds of ways we display things in the galleries. 256 00:29:31,180 --> 00:29:36,280 They know the kind of response they're going to get when we install something in a particular way. 257 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,940 So better now that they're telling us that up front instead of waiting until after it's on display. 258 00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:46,840 Now, I think I really have to give them a lot of credit for, you know, helping us move forward. 259 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:53,530 But accessibility is also something we think about in all ways that people are able not just, 260 00:29:53,530 --> 00:29:58,480 you know, changing our facilities on our website and our materials, 261 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,440 but interpret the collections to be accessible to people of all abilities, 262 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:09,920 but also beginning to add representations of people of differing abilities to the kinds of artwork that's represented in the gallery. 263 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:17,110 So those are just some more of the ways that we're trying to really welcome everyone into the museum. 264 00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:25,510 And if I might just add a little thing here, but I really appreciated about the press access policy is section four, 265 00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:30,850 where you talk about the different types of access that you are trying to develop at 266 00:30:30,850 --> 00:30:38,860 the rivers where you talked about physical access and sensory access and cultural, 267 00:30:38,860 --> 00:30:42,980 intellectual, attitudinal and financial, 268 00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:54,160 I think I will make this recommendation when we write and access policies that we consider all of those as carefully as you have 269 00:30:54,160 --> 00:31:03,790 when you do talk about non-traditional visitors and how you had to meet them where they are so that when they come into the museum, 270 00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:15,240 all their beliefs are not challenged and also. The fact that you are free seven days a week is something I think most museums aspire to, 271 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,830 but we are not able to do that because of budgetary concerns. 272 00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:25,470 But the fact that you remove the financial barrier to going into a museum is really significant. 273 00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:30,600 And we do that for specific dates or specific hours in a certain day, 274 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:36,600 and we are free to all rusty and brown and students and other institutional members. 275 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,560 But it would be so good to be able to be free all the time. 276 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:46,140 Thank you both so much. In fact, in that discussion, you already pretty well answered our first question, 277 00:31:46,140 --> 00:31:50,190 which was great about communities and working with communities as a museum. 278 00:31:50,190 --> 00:31:51,720 So that is fantastic. 279 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:58,800 And I guess in light of that, I'll skip right to our first question, which was on section 15 of the collection development policy. 280 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:04,950 It states that Gore talks about repatriation and restitution of objects and human remains. 281 00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:08,740 So if you've read these policies, of course, they're that they're quite sparse. 282 00:32:08,740 --> 00:32:14,220 They don't have a whole lot of stuff in them beyond what is, of course, mandated by the UK government. 283 00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:16,920 But do you think this is you have a question that's fabulous. 284 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:26,160 Do you think that policies fifteen point one and to ensure a smooth, adequate and morally responsible repatriation process, if not. 285 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,580 Do you have any suggestions about what we could add in our upcoming rewrite of this policy? 286 00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:35,160 I'll start with one sentence and I'll turn it over to Jen. So first of all, 287 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:42,780 I really glommed on to your sentence that said council will take decisions on a case by case basis 288 00:32:42,780 --> 00:32:50,160 within its legal position and taking into account all ethical implications and available guidelines. 289 00:32:50,160 --> 00:33:02,700 And so although it addresses the legality first, it does really very quickly veer into ethical guidelines and also a case by case basis, 290 00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:08,970 both of which I think are particularly important when you deal with repatriation issues. 291 00:33:08,970 --> 00:33:16,050 I think the case by case is key no to objects, to a museum the same way. 292 00:33:16,050 --> 00:33:21,180 And if we are guided by ethics, that goes a long way. 293 00:33:21,180 --> 00:33:25,140 But Jen, I think, has specifics that she'd like to address. 294 00:33:25,140 --> 00:33:29,370 Well, I think for both of us, as we consider rewriting our policies, 295 00:33:29,370 --> 00:33:36,780 I think we have to be we have to make some more proactive, you know, in the need for work around provenance, 296 00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:46,080 I think we need some wording that speaks to a commitment to researching the provenance status of works to determine if they were ethically acquired. 297 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,110 I think that's on us as museums to do that. 298 00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:58,920 And I think in the past, we've been too much reliant on someone coming to us to claim something not that we didn't do provenance research. 299 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:07,680 And certainly we found things that were not, you know, quite recently found something in our collection that had been stolen from another museum and, 300 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,330 you know, had collectors marks change so that it looked like it was something that was legitimate. 301 00:34:12,330 --> 00:34:18,060 And, you know, research had been done recently to where the collectors marks were now known to 302 00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:22,050 be fake collectors so that we could determine that that didn't belong to us. 303 00:34:22,050 --> 00:34:24,880 And of course, we went in to return that to the museum I belong to. 304 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:31,350 But I think there's just so much more we can do when it comes to taking on that responsibility. 305 00:34:31,350 --> 00:34:37,170 I was also impressed with your strategic plan goal of being part of a process of redress, 306 00:34:37,170 --> 00:34:43,710 social healing and mending of historically difficult relationships through collaborations with stakeholders, 307 00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:47,130 including reconnecting objects to communities of origins. 308 00:34:47,130 --> 00:34:55,800 And I think that kind of language for both of us is helpful in, you know, getting these policies to a place where we need them today. 309 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:06,600 I think, you know, policies should reflect the practise that we are keeping and sometimes our practises now maybe getting ahead of our policies. 310 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:16,700 But it's really important for our policies to stay aligned with the work that needs to be done and we need to be updating our policies as needed. 311 00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:20,010 You know, we both have this mandate to review them every five years, 312 00:35:20,010 --> 00:35:26,130 and that's great that to do a full review because sometimes things do change, sometimes are just minor changes. 313 00:35:26,130 --> 00:35:33,120 But I think in today's museum world, things are changing fast and we have to be far more proactive, 314 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:39,390 as I said, and in looking at these policies and thinking rethinking the way we work. 315 00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:45,200 You know, we have, as was mentioned, that special provenance concerns section of our policy. 316 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:55,950 And even there, you know, we need to update ours to reflect, you know, how to deal with objects that were acquired from this colonial period. 317 00:35:55,950 --> 00:36:04,770 But I think even a lot of the institutions and organisations that we look to for guidance are still working through this as well. 318 00:36:04,770 --> 00:36:07,640 So we all need to push it forward. And at this point, 319 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:16,910 what I want to say to is I really commend the Prime for being the platform in which we can do this 320 00:36:16,910 --> 00:36:23,720 because the programmes that you have all recently offered to the public in terms of discussing, 321 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:28,340 you know, benign issues or even this issues of policy, 322 00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:38,210 your goal to be a platform for museums to discuss issues that museums face today is a good one and needed one. 323 00:36:38,210 --> 00:36:40,250 And I'm so glad you're doing it. 324 00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:46,010 I think we'll pass on the credits to the amazing staff of the British Museum is there may be a final question, if I may. 325 00:36:46,010 --> 00:36:52,220 Oh, sure, sure. Very general question. But also for the sake of the Bosca's name, can there actually be practise without policy? 326 00:36:52,220 --> 00:37:01,430 So do you believe practise should meticulously match policy and social policy more of a guide or should it be more foundational? 327 00:37:01,430 --> 00:37:08,390 Because this podcast is named Matters of Policy, but we were sort of flipping heads around like asking Does policy actually matter? 328 00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:13,370 So we're wondering should it be a guiding document or should it be really a foundational document? 329 00:37:13,370 --> 00:37:19,670 Well, I think it's necessary to have the document for its transparency. 330 00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:26,600 Here's what's guiding your work. But again, as I said, I think it's really important that as your practise is changing, 331 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,750 your policies have to keep up with that, know you have to keep them. 332 00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:35,720 And I think it's better to keep them in alignment so that you have something to fall back on when you need it. 333 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:39,200 And also, you have something to help guide you when you need it. 334 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:45,110 But also, as you see the what's necessary for change, you continue to update that policy, you know? 335 00:37:45,110 --> 00:37:49,310 So you may feel differently. No, I would agree with that. 336 00:37:49,310 --> 00:37:52,760 And so I think we are both I think I'm hedging here. 337 00:37:52,760 --> 00:38:02,630 It can both be a guide because you need that when you speak to your constituents about why you're doing the things you're doing, 338 00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:07,490 but it should also reflect your institution's mission. 339 00:38:07,490 --> 00:38:14,720 So it should be fundamental as well. And institutions change with dynamic institutions. 340 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:19,490 Thank goodness our practises evolve. But so should our policies. 341 00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:20,960 Then, as Jan said, 342 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:33,800 to reflect this changes innovations better understanding of the past and better ways to make amends for four things not done right in the past. 343 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:41,620 Thanks so much, Sherry. I think I went a bit beyond what was for this podcast, but I was just really wondering because it sounded so great. 344 00:38:41,620 --> 00:38:48,020 It seems like you've been working so close with policy, and it's really generated benefits in terms of decolonisation. 345 00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:52,700 So that's why I just was wondering what you had to say about it. But thanks so much for the conversation. 346 00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:55,970 Thank you so much for asking us. Thank you so much. Yes. 347 00:38:55,970 --> 00:38:58,070 Thank you both for being so generous with your time. 348 00:38:58,070 --> 00:39:03,590 We so much appreciate you taking the time out to come and speak with us, so we appreciate the work you're doing. 349 00:39:03,590 --> 00:39:13,460 We really do. Thank you all. That was the Rivers Museum's Matters of Policy podcast produced by Darcy Woodhouse. 350 00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:20,720 Yet Boom, Mega Man Alexis Barriere and Bobble Hat Sounds Music by Jack Fawcett, 351 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:33,271 voiceover Baiju who let a special thank you to Muranga Thompson Offline and the Knowledge Exchange.