1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:11,340 2 00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:21,690 Welcome to the Rivers Museums. Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy, 3 00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:33,150 speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy. 4 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:40,680 Hi chip ABC. Here we continue the conversation with Dr. Laura Fundable Colfer, who's director of the Privacy Museum. 5 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,670 This episode focuses on contemporary as well as future museum practise, 6 00:00:44,670 --> 00:00:51,270 and changing policy change sometimes happens very, very slowly, very gradually. 7 00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:55,980 I think, especially for communities, are continuing to experience the whole, you know, 8 00:00:55,980 --> 00:01:05,370 sort of hurt and pain and loss of having objects that belong elsewhere or that have 9 00:01:05,370 --> 00:01:10,890 a cultural significance elsewhere and have a cultural role to play in ceremonies. 10 00:01:10,890 --> 00:01:14,850 For us to then sort of see I am really trying is just not good enough. 11 00:01:14,850 --> 00:01:22,440 And I think that is where it sometimes can be quite frustrating, even though I know how much our team is doing, 12 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:27,660 and many of them go way beyond what you could expect from just a professional engagement. 13 00:01:27,660 --> 00:01:35,700 This is for for most of our staff, this is not just a job, they're doing this because they want to be part of that process of change. 14 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:39,720 They want to be sort of part of a process of redress. 15 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,580 But we all need to also sort of think, OK, this is going to be like, it's a bit, yeah, 16 00:01:44,580 --> 00:01:51,510 I think someone described it as a as a cruise ship where if you want to turn a cruise ship once it's turned, 17 00:01:51,510 --> 00:01:58,200 it really will have to go a different direction. But for it to turn, it needs to turn completely. 18 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:04,740 And I think that is what museums. Hopefully we can shift it. 19 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:12,210 I don't know if there's a real decolonial to really not being an institution anymore. 20 00:02:12,210 --> 00:02:16,860 Also causes hurt is a possibility. Maybe not in this generation. 21 00:02:16,860 --> 00:02:26,490 Maybe your generation. We definitely hope so. But indeed, there are many complexities that make it extremely difficult to completely colonise. 22 00:02:26,490 --> 00:02:34,350 But we few, as you said, that the staff has taken on a very proactive attitude to towards this immense project. 23 00:02:34,350 --> 00:02:40,380 So you mentioned your spare and Sea Pro Change Pro reaching out to indigenous communities 24 00:02:40,380 --> 00:02:45,660 and that the staff is doing work that goes beyond what's normally expected of a job. 25 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:50,730 But when reading the CDP, it feels this proactive ness is sometimes lacking. 26 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:57,300 Section four, for instance, states something about doing acquisition when relevant opportunities arise. 27 00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:06,540 To what extent do you feel museums should take the lead and reach out to communities rather than almost wait for such opportunities to arise? 28 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:11,040 Yeah, I think absolutely that is no longer a reflection of our practise. 29 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:18,690 Clearly, there are things that sort of organically grow the fact that, you know, of all those indigenous leaders who came, there were five of them. 30 00:03:18,690 --> 00:03:23,400 One of them, which was some, well, just immediately followed up and said, I'm going to talk to the elders. 31 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,240 I need for you to do x y z. Just put four point. 32 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:34,830 That was sort of organically that that relationship became a really important one and is helping to transform the way that we work. 33 00:03:34,830 --> 00:03:39,630 But I think around transparency about what is here, how do we work? 34 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:44,610 And absolutely, that's where the document obviously needs to change to reflect what we're actually doing. 35 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:49,800 So it's our responsibility is to reach out. Our responsibility is to also listen and learn. 36 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:57,210 Our responsibility is to be held accountable for what's in here, not to sort of wallow in white guilt or white shame, 37 00:03:57,210 --> 00:04:02,040 but actually to say yes, that comes with it does come with a sense of remorse. 38 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,750 It comes also with a responsibility to be part of actioning redress. 39 00:04:06,750 --> 00:04:11,940 Listening, learning. Seeing how can we undo some of that harm for the Rivers Museum, 40 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:19,890 which is maybe a bit different from other places because of the way that we display things, there's different layers to that responsibility. 41 00:04:19,890 --> 00:04:26,850 Right. So on the one hand, we need to make sure that are the stories that we're telling to the half a million people who come and visit us from across 42 00:04:26,850 --> 00:04:34,110 the globe each year don't continue to repeat stereotypical images and sort of wording that is actually really problematic, 43 00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:40,530 which is still has a sort of bit of social evolution is a colloquial social evolution ism in it. 44 00:04:40,530 --> 00:04:48,600 All of that we need to sort of do in-house. We need to reach out to communities both locally and globally around. 45 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,800 How do we give new meanings to these collections and how do some of these collections? 46 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,940 Not all of them, because for example, with the Maasai, it's quite clear up there. 47 00:04:56,940 --> 00:05:03,510 There's five objects in particular of the 188 that are really problematic, they should not be here. 48 00:05:03,510 --> 00:05:08,880 That is why we need a spiritual guide and stop where we needed to bring in epistemology. 49 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:17,090 From the my side to actually start understanding the history of these objects and how they came into the museum from the epistemology of the mass, 50 00:05:17,090 --> 00:05:24,480 so it's a very different sort of way of treating knowledge and which historical data do we use? 51 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,800 Museums are very focussed on what is in our archive, and that is truth. 52 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:36,000 We need to move away from that. And I think that's certainly also needs to be in a new policy where we're going to say local knowledge. 53 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,570 This knowledge is as important in your documentation of why objects need to be taught. 54 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:50,280 So yes, I think that that certainly will not be reflected in the current GDP, but it should be in our next CDP. 55 00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:51,390 There's that work I know. 56 00:05:51,390 --> 00:06:00,400 Yep, you've also been looking into our web pages and a lot of our micro sites, which have lots of really problematic language in them, too. 57 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:06,750 2018, I think I wrote the labelling mothers project as a sort of set up to then be able to find some funding for it. 58 00:06:06,750 --> 00:06:11,230 And then we were lucky enough to have Marine to apply for that post. 59 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:17,940 And she sort of, you know, took it to an incredibly detailed, you know, level of scoping the problem. 60 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:24,150 We now our other states that we can start thinking about how do we undo those issues? 61 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:31,500 Some of it might be that we mostly need to, you know, use some of these cases as tools for education to actually point out, 62 00:06:31,500 --> 00:06:37,350 Look, this is really problematic, but you're probably doing it in your own thinking, in your own mindset. 63 00:06:37,350 --> 00:06:41,970 Still, today, this, you know, can cause quite a bit of cognitive dissonance. 64 00:06:41,970 --> 00:06:47,400 People sort of like, Ooh, this is problematic. Why is it problematic when I use the word, you know, modern or. 65 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:54,840 And I think that is going to be a really crucial way that this museum can function for a while. 66 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:58,380 The other thing that we need to build into the museum is more of the reverse. 67 00:06:58,380 --> 00:07:05,460 So this whole idea that we're universal museums that are bringing together universal ways of being and is based on the fiction, right? 68 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:14,430 Because there is no one universal way of being. And I think that is where, you know, Arturo Escobar's Lori facility is a really useful concept. 69 00:07:14,430 --> 00:07:21,570 I think for a museum like ours, if we can, instead of pretending that there's a universal museum, say no. 70 00:07:21,570 --> 00:07:25,530 Actually, this is a pluribus with many ways of being many ways of no. 71 00:07:25,530 --> 00:07:29,520 Many stories, many voices, therefore, who should tell those stories? 72 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:37,050 Let's make sure that that's how we can unlock the museum as a place that can actually be a place where those stories are being told. 73 00:07:37,050 --> 00:07:45,240 That means that we need to start acquisition positioning differently. And I think that is where the acquisition indifferently means more equitable. 74 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,750 And that's where, you know, Marenco is really trialling that. 75 00:07:48,750 --> 00:07:53,070 And I think to me, that's how policy works or practise and public policy go hand in hand. 76 00:07:53,070 --> 00:08:01,830 That's because I'm a bit of a pragmatist when Marenco sort of is trying something, seeing whether it can work and then immediately sees, OK. 77 00:08:01,830 --> 00:08:05,250 These are all the barriers to do it differently. 78 00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:10,980 We need to identify those barriers and then make sure that we invite them differently into a new policy, 79 00:08:10,980 --> 00:08:14,280 differently into a new practise of making payments, for example. 80 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,630 And that's where I must say that would have been easier in the Netherlands because we were 81 00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:24,810 an independent institution that could make its own sort of make its own regulations, 82 00:08:24,810 --> 00:08:30,390 all models of how we were going to pay being part of a huge, huge university. 83 00:08:30,390 --> 00:08:38,760 That is always being watched constantly also. So there's a lot of processes in place around H.R., around payments, around finance, 84 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:44,070 etc. That can be quite difficult and that's why we just need to live with imperfection. 85 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:53,160 And I know that that's not great, but it is a reality where I need to sort of say, OK, we can be really harsh about all of these things, 86 00:08:53,160 --> 00:09:01,530 or we can say we're going to live with imperfection and acknowledge that it's imperfect but still strive to do better. 87 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:09,510 I think that's what we're really aiming to do with this podcast series is come up with some suggestions for change in an ideal way. 88 00:09:09,510 --> 00:09:13,830 In a utopian world. We would do this, this, this and it be so easy and it be wonderful. 89 00:09:13,830 --> 00:09:21,690 Then coming up with maybe some practical suggestions as well that are more realistic as you've spoken about the kind of the 90 00:09:21,690 --> 00:09:30,480 powers that be in terms of accreditation and the university working in such a large organisation like the University of Oxford. 91 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,620 In the mission statement, it talks about the University of Oxford starchy. 92 00:09:34,620 --> 00:09:43,320 Just briefly tell us what that is and who is in charge of the statue and when does it change so that every museum has statutes? 93 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,090 If we want to change those, it's a legal process and we need to go through legal trajectory. 94 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:55,680 The university statutes say that's when you would need to go to different parts of the university to get those changed. 95 00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:00,810 Very different from policy, different from strategies or strategy. 96 00:10:00,810 --> 00:10:07,470 We're quite independent in establishing our strategy. Obviously, our board of visitors was a sort of board of governance. 97 00:10:07,470 --> 00:10:11,760 They're not really. Because Oxford has its own structures. 98 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,040 But I do report to our board of visitors, 99 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:25,200 they usually say yes or no to changes to strategy policy and how they would sort of be able to confirm those if it's something more significant. 100 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:32,660 If it's a bigger policy document that, for example, that's what happens with the procedures for return of cultural objects through claimants. 101 00:10:32,660 --> 00:10:38,130 If it would have just been a bit reversed, museum policy is just a board of visitors that needs to agree. 102 00:10:38,130 --> 00:10:46,500 But this was the other museum directors when I sort of finished our version that we actually also want to adopt this document. 103 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:53,640 But then we needed to have quite a bit of conversations about how would it be affects the body and for example, who have, you know, 104 00:10:53,640 --> 00:11:01,140 I don't know, 12 million or more materials in their collections, the Ashmolean with a million, the natural history with, you know, 3.4 million. 105 00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:06,090 So we have to put in some conversations, and I'm really pleased that that went well. 106 00:11:06,090 --> 00:11:09,930 So that is a next step that then needs to go to the proctors. 107 00:11:09,930 --> 00:11:18,780 It then also went to a general purposes committee G.P.S., where it was then pulled in and took another year before we could bring it back to GBC. 108 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:25,680 And then we went to council and then gets published. And Congregation, which is all the professors of the University of Oxford, 109 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:30,510 could comment on a policy document if they don't agree to say I made a return request. 110 00:11:30,510 --> 00:11:37,200 If we have said yes, we want to. Some one professor or a couple of professors from the university could still say, No, we don't agree. 111 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,570 We object. Worst case scenario would go to a congregation. Congregation is sort of in the Shelden in theatre. 112 00:11:42,570 --> 00:11:49,980 It's a really big theatre where all professors and come in there and then you might need to go in a debate to argue your case. 113 00:11:49,980 --> 00:11:53,610 It's a very democratic structure, actually. Oxford, quite exceptionally democratic. 114 00:11:53,610 --> 00:12:00,840 It's the same in Cambridge. And that's when in the end, the V-C, the vice chancellor, agrees for statues. 115 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:07,530 I think that would be a different process, but I haven't gone through that process, so I can't really give a lot of information. 116 00:12:07,530 --> 00:12:16,290 I must say in the beginning, when I joined 2068 2016, it felt like I was sort of playing 3D chess, but blindfold it without knowing the rules. 117 00:12:16,290 --> 00:12:19,560 Having come not from a university museum, not from the UK, 118 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:26,670 but from a sort of Dutch where the national museums are their independent museums, they have a lot more say themselves. 119 00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:35,280 And then also starting to see the panorama of this 14 national museums in the UK, there's about 400 university museums, 120 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:43,770 of which 100 have a public side to their museum and we have about 800 something independent and or civic museums, 121 00:12:43,770 --> 00:12:47,550 which are actually owned by the city and its citizens. 122 00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:53,130 Even though a lot of focus in the press always goes to the Nationals, 123 00:12:53,130 --> 00:12:58,860 there's only 14 national museums and there's more than a thousand other museums in the UK. 124 00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:03,540 The amount of visitors we have are similar to what the National Museum would get. 125 00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:07,320 The funding, however, is 10 times 100 times less. 126 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:14,910 We just need to be quite realistic what we can do for the statutes of the museum to change. 127 00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:24,180 We did make a change to our board of visitors recently, so it is certainly possible, but it's less something that I find hugely urgent. 128 00:13:24,180 --> 00:13:29,130 What I'd be worried about is, is it going to be a bit of a red herring? 129 00:13:29,130 --> 00:13:31,920 Is it the best place where I'm going to spend my time? 130 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:37,170 And I think that for me, it would be let's make sure the strategy is in place that make sure our comms are in place. 131 00:13:37,170 --> 00:13:40,560 Let's make sure our practise is in place and then we rewrite our policy. 132 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:46,680 And then if we are really saying, you know, these statutes, they really are obstructing us from being able to do our strategy, 133 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:55,470 we would need to go into changing them and also maybe to sort of ensure longer activity. 134 00:13:55,470 --> 00:14:00,990 We want to make sure that there's no racist practises embedded in our statutes. 135 00:14:00,990 --> 00:14:09,840 So you have all these museums, all of those who have designated collections and who want to have accreditation is a specific kind of 136 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:15,210 museum again that are sort of acknowledged and go through processes around having all of the documentation, 137 00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:22,800 safeguarding access. You know, all of that. We sign up to a sort of broader spectrum of elements of work. 138 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,320 The Arts Council is important around accreditation, and accreditation is important to get any funding. 139 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:35,250 The most funders will ask Are you an accredited museum and is your collection designated a sort of designation of the collections, 140 00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:37,710 which I don't think you've looked into very much yet, 141 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:46,500 but that very much also will have the sort of narrative of most important, unique, historic, important names being named, etc. 142 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:51,900 So again, that is something that you might have to look up to for accreditation. 143 00:14:51,900 --> 00:15:02,130 The Arts Council, if you look at their new strategy and their new vision documents, are very much exactly in line with what we want to do. 144 00:15:02,130 --> 00:15:06,510 There's a whole range of people in the Arts Council that we work with quite closely. 145 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:12,030 They would be keen. To look at where does that communication actually? 146 00:15:12,030 --> 00:15:15,930 Where is it hindering people to actually be able to focus on change? 147 00:15:15,930 --> 00:15:25,890 Where can we support? So in that sense, I think that, yes, there are things that might still be quite focussed on preservation of care. 148 00:15:25,890 --> 00:15:32,370 On the other hand, I know that our conservation team is hugely focussed on cultural care, 149 00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:41,340 is hugely focussed on ensuring that their conservation goes hand in hand with reaching out to communities working closely with communities. 150 00:15:41,340 --> 00:15:45,780 And I think that one could say that that's where also an icon. 151 00:15:45,780 --> 00:15:51,000 You know, obviously there's a discussion around the definition which showcases that much like in society, 152 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,160 there's a division in the leadership of museums. 153 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:03,270 For some, museum directors are explicitly and very vocally saying new direction is working together with is, you know, polyphony. 154 00:16:03,270 --> 00:16:06,720 I think it's it's called there, but is more sort of like, you know, 155 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,100 blue reversal and it's about equity and access and ensuring that everybody's reach. 156 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:15,150 We are, you know, places that are essentially human, 157 00:16:15,150 --> 00:16:24,600 while others very much like the idea of sort of the old definition where we are mostly a place with four walls 158 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:31,350 where collections are being kept and where this sort of power to decide what should be considered heritage, 159 00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:36,420 let's say, or museum acting is decided by the museum. 160 00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:43,530 And I think that is not necessarily how people themselves would self-identify, but I think that is sort of what we're, you know, 161 00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:51,420 we're seeing these divisions in society around should the players of England take the knee and 162 00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:59,250 really clearly demonstrate that they want a society that is anti-racist or should they not? 163 00:16:59,250 --> 00:17:05,760 And I think that is where, on the one hand, people say it's just a gesture, but if it's just a gesture, you wouldn't object. 164 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:12,780 So I think that is where those kind of divisions that we're seeing everywhere around us and we seeing it in the way that people vote, 165 00:17:12,780 --> 00:17:17,190 there's real divisions and they also exist in the museums. 166 00:17:17,190 --> 00:17:21,300 But I think that if we look at accreditation, their vision statements, 167 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:28,680 if we and their new strategies and sort of documents like the Let's Create document the same for the Heritage Lottery Fund, 168 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:37,410 we see that their major documents that can enable transformation, they can enable change. 169 00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:41,910 They're not the ones who are going to obstruct it. That's not how I see the Arts Council. 170 00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:48,090 We do want to bring up one more question on the Arts Council because in their accreditation guidance documents, 171 00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:57,630 they write that they want to help guide museums to do the right thing and make sure museums manage their collections properly during the CDP workshop. 172 00:17:57,630 --> 00:18:03,060 We did you raise this question asking what this system properly actually mean? 173 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:10,020 And it made us wonder what if the nationally recognised standards said museums are set to follow artefacts floats? 174 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:14,040 To what extent is Typekit reverse involved in questioning those standards? 175 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:20,100 And how does it make sure not to just simply presuppose them? 176 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:29,250 Yeah, yeah. Not just sort of abiding by them. So one I think the Arts Council can be a council that is actually helping to drive change. 177 00:18:29,250 --> 00:18:36,550 I have been part of Arts Council working groups to think about strategy and to think about, especially around repatriation. 178 00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:42,030 Another important organisation, there is a museum association that also plays a really important role. 179 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:46,110 They're very proactive in enabling change in the UK. 180 00:18:46,110 --> 00:18:50,490 A big driver for change is the Arts Council. 181 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:56,520 They are at an arm's length body of the government, so they do get their funding from the government. 182 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,630 So there is a sort of, you know, difficult, tight rope. 183 00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:05,730 Let's say that they need to walk to ensure that there's still sort of ensuring 184 00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:09,690 that the government feels they're still reflecting what the people feel. 185 00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:13,170 But if we read the let's create document, it's cleared up. 186 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:17,610 They're all about access up. They're all about more voices in museums up. 187 00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:22,050 They're all about ensuring that communities are involved. 188 00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:31,350 Actually also give more access to using objects and not just keeping them in this sort of preservation frame that is quite limiting. 189 00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:35,610 So I think that there's a lot of possibility there. I see a lot of possibility. 190 00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:42,060 Also, Kate Bellamy, who's the director for museums in the Arts Council, is very open to those conversations. 191 00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:51,300 We work with our local sort of representative of the Arts Council, Michael Cook, who I don't think he'd mind me saying he has roots in Jamaica. 192 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:56,430 He's very proactive also in thinking with us on how can we make things happen? 193 00:19:56,430 --> 00:20:00,810 So I personally feel that the Arts Council so far has been, on the one hand, 194 00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:07,140 a driver for change in the UK in museums to change towards more diverse staffing, 195 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:13,800 a change towards ensuring that there's openness around collections and accountability responsibility. 196 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,470 And now, obviously, the Arts Council is also helping with draughting some guidance around restitution. 197 00:20:19,470 --> 00:20:25,410 I was part of the steering group, but I haven't heard for a really long time now, so I'm not sure where that is. 198 00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:32,430 I think it's coming soon. Yeah. So I don't know if I should be concerned that I've not heard anything. 199 00:20:32,430 --> 00:20:39,360 But no, but I do know that they've really sort of been a driver for change and demanding 200 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:45,000 for institutions to actually be accountable and ensuring that all communities. 201 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,860 Yes. So especially from deprived backgrounds, are actually being involved in the museum. 202 00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:56,190 So that's how I see. That's great as it offers a lot of possibilities in terms of making changes within the document. 203 00:20:56,190 --> 00:21:01,590 If the Arts Council is already driving this change and actually advocating for these changes, 204 00:21:01,590 --> 00:21:08,300 then there doesn't seem to be that many barriers towards implementing those changes within the document. 205 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:13,730 Yes, I think so, too. And that's where, you know, as I said when we met in the workshop, 206 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:20,840 I do invite you guys to be part of that rewriting of of the document because it's so useful 207 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:28,520 and so important to have those critical faults sort of being mirrored others and say, 208 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,140 this is what you're actually saying. Isn't that? Is that really what you want to see? 209 00:21:33,140 --> 00:21:36,530 And, you know, usually it's not. So I think that's where it's really quite important. 210 00:21:36,530 --> 00:21:41,450 Obviously, we know the power and the importance of, you know, sort of the words that we use, the language that we use, 211 00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:45,170 the way that we phrase things and what ends up makes, you know, 212 00:21:45,170 --> 00:21:51,620 a place that is inviting for all to feel that their voices are welcome, their presence is welcome. 213 00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:57,650 Their ways of being are being taken and acknowledged as something that is important. 214 00:21:57,650 --> 00:22:08,210 So I think that is where I want to thank you guys for thinking with us and working with us and ensuring that we're being held accountable. 215 00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:14,960 That was the Rivers Museum's Matters of Policy podcast produced by the Seward House, 216 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:23,540 yet bomb maker man Alexis Barriere and vocal sounds music by Jack Forcett voice over Baiju, 217 00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:34,773 who led a special thank you to Muranga Thomas from Oakland and the Knowledge Exchange.