1 00:00:04,620 --> 00:00:11,340 2 00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:21,690 Welcome to the Rivers Museums. Matters of Policy podcast, this is a podcast in which we explore the museum's collections development policy, 3 00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:33,420 speaking with guests from across the globe to delve into the language used and consider what really matters in this policy. 4 00:00:33,420 --> 00:00:39,030 Hi and welcome to the final episode of the Match, the policy podcast with the Pitt Rivers Museum. 5 00:00:39,030 --> 00:00:42,750 I'm Becky and I'm joined today by Yep, and Meghan. 6 00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:49,800 And we're just going to conclude with a little bit the discussion about what we've learnt and talk about some of the topics that 7 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:57,420 we each think have been really interesting that come up throughout the podcast and the discussions we've had with each book. 8 00:00:57,420 --> 00:01:02,280 So, yeah, we've had 11 gaffes in total over the course of the 12 episodes. 9 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,820 We've also done a workshop and looked in-depth about the collections policy. 10 00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:15,270 Yeah, I think personally, it's just been a really big learning curve to look at policy in such depth, 11 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:23,370 especially in terms of the language used throughout the policy, which I wouldn't have felt going into. 12 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:29,760 It would have reflected the of this museum. And obviously doesn't really reflect it so much, but the kind of updated strategic plan. 13 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:37,740 But having a policy like that was open to public access that has such outdated language was quite shocking. 14 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:44,710 And so it's been really good to have the opportunity to look at this further and also discuss it with you guys. 15 00:01:44,710 --> 00:01:52,170 Yeah, as we learnt, particularly in our workshop, it is really difficult to get changes to policy through. 16 00:01:52,170 --> 00:01:56,040 So a lot of museums will simply change their practise, which is fantastic. 17 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:02,490 And of course, practise is one of the most important things that needs to change because that's where the work actually happens. 18 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:10,110 But if a policy changes, then everyone in the institution can get behind the practise that they want to commit to. 19 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:14,910 And we think, particularly for the reviewers, as it is such a leader in museum decolonisation, 20 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:21,060 it's really important to have a policy that accurately reflects their new values and the direction that they want to take. 21 00:02:21,060 --> 00:02:26,010 So it was really interesting to learn not just about the barriers to changing policies, 22 00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:32,520 but from our guests the ways that this policy could be changed radically in order to sort of help not only the peer reviewers, 23 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,440 but everyone who might want to follow the Pitt rivers to make their museums better places. 24 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:44,790 And I think also we've been really sort of captivated by the question what comes first like policy or practise? 25 00:02:44,790 --> 00:02:52,770 But that's maybe a bit of like a chicken and egg problem whilst we sort of naturally develop simultaneously or organically. 26 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:56,970 So perhaps the duality here is a bit of a fallacy. 27 00:02:56,970 --> 00:03:03,690 But I do think what we've learnt is that this is such a new field of work, the decolonisation work. 28 00:03:03,690 --> 00:03:06,240 So a bit of trial and error is allowed. 29 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:13,600 Practise is allowed to run a bit ahead, but you should never policy should never sort of fall out of sight for that could be dangerous. 30 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:21,210 Yeah, I definitely agree in that kind of leads perfectly into our first topic, which was the idea of policy and practise. 31 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:27,300 And I think as we kind of discussed in a number of the episodes with our guests specifically, I know that came up in the episode. 32 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:33,630 I was speaking with Joel and Ethan Shaw about the idea about policy reflected need old wording and these old 33 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:40,380 ideologies and language and it being the last thing to change rather than it's not policy leading the way. 34 00:03:40,380 --> 00:03:47,650 But I think, as John said, it should be policy to lead the way because how else are you going to have everybody being on the same page? 35 00:03:47,650 --> 00:03:50,910 It needs to be clear what your organisational goals are, 36 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:57,690 and if the policy is needed for the accreditation and the accreditation is needed for the funding, 37 00:03:57,690 --> 00:04:07,110 then surely it should be the policy that should come first in order for every single front that comes through the museum 38 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:13,530 to be in line with the policy and in line with the collections development policy and their accessibility policy. 39 00:04:13,530 --> 00:04:18,930 To create this, you know, a uniformed body that has clear goals. 40 00:04:18,930 --> 00:04:24,000 So it's great that the practise would work and be really forward thinking. 41 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:34,860 But if the accreditation body doesn't see the museum as enacting those changes, then it could be seen as kind of just saying You're doing something. 42 00:04:34,860 --> 00:04:38,740 But you know, even though you are actually doing something, 43 00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:48,090 it was actually easier to kind of change from the ground up in terms of implementing practise before getting longer tangible changes. 44 00:04:48,090 --> 00:04:52,980 But I do think that review quality maybe needs to be in place more frequently. 45 00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:57,540 I need to go into more detail and like we've done now, 46 00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:02,880 which is something that was maybe not done in previous years to ensure that it does 47 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:09,160 align with the museum's goals and that we are reflecting language that is used in the. 48 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:18,430 Such as the collection policy to make sure that it doesn't reinforce some of the outdated power balances that the practise in the museum is really, 49 00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:21,820 really striving forward to address. 50 00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:32,920 But again, if it's in the policy and it is in the organisational goals, then it still reinforces that you can you can do it as much as you want. 51 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:40,790 But if if that's the motto that the museum is presenting, then instead ever going to be an equal power balance? 52 00:05:40,790 --> 00:05:46,930 Yeah. So I think that was the main thing that really came up for me with this policy and practise dichotomy, 53 00:05:46,930 --> 00:05:50,890 which is going to have to be explored further and further in multiple policies. 54 00:05:50,890 --> 00:05:58,150 Motor practises in a passive to Mecca. What was your number one area that you wanted to explore and come out for you? 55 00:05:58,150 --> 00:06:04,570 If our listeners have been hearing me talk at all, then they'll know that repatriation is one of my biggest scholarly interests, 56 00:06:04,570 --> 00:06:08,530 as well as one of the main reasons that I wanted to come to work at the Pitt rivers. 57 00:06:08,530 --> 00:06:12,880 Because the way that I was introduced to Marenco was in an article in Winnipeg, 58 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:19,840 in the Associated Press that talked about the removal of the census and their perhaps eventual repatriation. 59 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:25,210 And I emailed Branka and we talked about it a lot, and that led me, of course, to this podcast. 60 00:06:25,210 --> 00:06:31,750 So repatriation occupies a very small space in the part of the policy, 61 00:06:31,750 --> 00:06:41,350 which is perhaps not surprising since it really hasn't been much of a draw to public interest or museum interest until very recently. 62 00:06:41,350 --> 00:06:49,060 And I think that's kind of a crime because repatriation is what the future of museums will be all about and whether this is physical, 63 00:06:49,060 --> 00:06:52,150 repatriation, epistemic or emotional repatriation. 64 00:06:52,150 --> 00:07:00,460 It doesn't really matter because the future of museums will be about creating good relationships between institutions and communities. 65 00:07:00,460 --> 00:07:06,910 And you can't really do that if there's a huge power imbalance of, Hey, we have all your stuff, and we took it by violence on one side. 66 00:07:06,910 --> 00:07:14,200 So like Solomon, Enos talked about the reason that we're all here is because there can be really great partnerships between museums and communities. 67 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,560 I definitely still have hope in that sense. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. 68 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:23,110 But I think a lot of inner work needs to be done on the museum side to further those relationships. 69 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:27,220 And a really big part of that inner work is going to be not just examining our practise because I 70 00:07:27,220 --> 00:07:32,110 know that the peer reviewers is invested in some epistemic and physical repatriation practises, 71 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:37,750 but also making good on their promise to communities to further their relationships with 72 00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:42,640 them emotionally and to ensure that they have the community's best interests at heart, 73 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:48,260 not just in practise, but in policy as well. And I know that repatriation is also a hugely nuanced issue. 74 00:07:48,260 --> 00:07:54,040 We talked about this a lot in our workshop with the river staff who really explain it to us in fantastic terms. 75 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,220 There's a lot of different ways that repatriation can be done. 76 00:07:57,220 --> 00:08:03,430 There might be cultures and some people who don't really want their stuff back who don't really care if the Pitt Rivers has it or not. 77 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:10,390 But the dialogue still needs to happen. It still needs to be initiated, and there will be many more cultures who really do want their stuff back. 78 00:08:10,390 --> 00:08:16,180 And if museums want to create good relationships with those people, then they need to listen to those requests. 79 00:08:16,180 --> 00:08:22,690 And everything really does need to be taken on a case by case basis, which is why interpersonal relationships are just so important. 80 00:08:22,690 --> 00:08:26,380 And even so, like Carrie Newman talked about with the witness blanket, 81 00:08:26,380 --> 00:08:33,730 there's ways that artefacts can be shown in museums with the consent of communities and with no actual ownership on the part of museums, 82 00:08:33,730 --> 00:08:38,560 new partnerships and alliances that can be formed in ways that don't necessarily involve bills of 83 00:08:38,560 --> 00:08:45,800 ownership or money or anything sort of that Western based museums have been pushing for thus far. 84 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:51,100 We can do things a different way where communities and museums are both happy and artefacts are 85 00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:57,520 cared for in a way that is culturally relevant and significant and on a very practical level. 86 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,930 At some point there is going to be legislation regarding colonial repatriation. 87 00:09:01,930 --> 00:09:06,290 I believe that some guidelines are even now in the works to create such a thing in the U.K. 88 00:09:06,290 --> 00:09:12,040 I'm not sure about Kennedy yet, but we're getting there. Public sentiment has really put this issue into the spotlight. 89 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:20,200 So if the rivers can institute a solid repatriation policy when they rewrite their policy next summer, that might make things a lot easier. 90 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:25,240 And it'll make them a leader as they already are in the field of museum decolonisation. 91 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,850 And I think repatriation is going to be one of the things that really sets the Pitt Rivers apart in terms 92 00:09:30,850 --> 00:09:36,910 of creating relationships with communities and remaining a global leader in museum decolonisation. 93 00:09:36,910 --> 00:09:46,780 I think it's really interesting, just reflecting that both the policy and practise of discussion of the repatriation that you've discussed Meghan, 94 00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:50,020 it comes down to the power balance as well with kids. 95 00:09:50,020 --> 00:09:57,820 It's very interesting that that is at the core of addressing that in the museum is and should be at the 96 00:09:57,820 --> 00:10:03,460 forefront of the decisions that we're making going forward with policy making in the cultural heritage sector. 97 00:10:03,460 --> 00:10:07,180 What about you? What did you think was the kind of top, top theme? 98 00:10:07,180 --> 00:10:12,540 Yeah, I think what? I can just mentioned about expanding the definition of repatriation. 99 00:10:12,540 --> 00:10:19,830 It's going to be really important for the future because when we talk about concrete steps in rewriting the CDB, 100 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:23,550 this is definitely something that will have to be explored more. 101 00:10:23,550 --> 00:10:34,920 I do think the current section on repatriation in the CTP is limited because it only focuses on physical repatriation of objects and human remains. 102 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,700 So a next step will be expanding this notion, 103 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:49,180 also including guidelines on policy around things as emotional and spiritual, as well as digital repatriation. 104 00:10:49,180 --> 00:10:52,630 Then what stood out to me most during this podcast series, 105 00:10:52,630 --> 00:11:01,000 wordy many conversations we had around barriers from within and without when we talk about changing policy and policy and practise, 106 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,530 I should say because what surprised me or perhaps what I had not anticipated, 107 00:11:05,530 --> 00:11:16,420 is that the barriers towards implementing changes are mainly barriers from within the museum and not so much from without. 108 00:11:16,420 --> 00:11:22,360 Because many of the interviewees mentioned the problem of limited staffing. 109 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:29,140 This decolonisation project is just so big it's it's overturning an entire worldview. 110 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:40,930 So naturally that just requires a lot of research and work and does also time, which is difficult to accept sometimes. 111 00:11:40,930 --> 00:11:48,600 But that's the reality we're facing here. And then on top of that, the issue of limited space came up. 112 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,850 I think there are these great ambitions to make changes within a museum space. 113 00:11:53,850 --> 00:11:58,890 But Piers Rivers is running out of fiscal space to tell particular stories. 114 00:11:58,890 --> 00:12:05,040 The museum is so full that sometimes tough decisions need to be made on what can be done within space. 115 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:10,350 But as, for example, Fayaz mentioned, digitisation could play an important role here, 116 00:12:10,350 --> 00:12:19,330 although digitisation too has its own barriers that need to be investigated, particularly around access. 117 00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:22,690 And then a final barrier mentioned was limited funding, 118 00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:29,710 so as to stupid rivers is a non-national university museum operating within the framework of the University of Oxford. 119 00:12:29,710 --> 00:12:38,260 It is tied to sometimes very specific and extensive procedures to get resources. 120 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:45,270 And then at the same time, it's also included from a lot of the resources that are made available to national museums. 121 00:12:45,270 --> 00:12:49,830 And this funding issue is, of course, already ties to barriers from without. 122 00:12:49,830 --> 00:12:56,220 But when we talked about external barriers amongst ourselves prior to the podcast series, 123 00:12:56,220 --> 00:13:00,570 we were talking more about external parties like the Arts Council. 124 00:13:00,570 --> 00:13:07,410 And as we've heard, the aren't counter effects really taking responsibility and rethinking the museum's role, 125 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:12,720 and they are leading the way and helping to improve policy. 126 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:19,860 So what's going to be concluded is indeed that a lot of focus will have to be on the internal issues. 127 00:13:19,860 --> 00:13:26,540 And some solutions that came up are working more closely with our museums, fire things as co-curator, 128 00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:32,880 curatorship or with community curators and with artists that sent close to stakeholder communities. 129 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:39,180 Still, this all will take a long time. There's no denying. Change is slow, but truly steps. 130 00:13:39,180 --> 00:13:44,630 We could be able to speed it up in the future, or we should be able to speed it up in the future. 131 00:13:44,630 --> 00:13:54,970 And. What's also been mentioned is that slow but well-considered change tends to have more endurance, which I guess is the positive side to this all. 132 00:13:54,970 --> 00:13:59,350 Yeah, I think that's a really positive note to end on that. It's going to take a very long time. 133 00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:07,780 But I think as you said, that slow change hands have endurance and that is what we should be aiming to do is to make changes that do last for 134 00:14:07,780 --> 00:14:17,050 multiple generations to come and also employ practises like we're evaluating the policy like we've done with this podcast, 135 00:14:17,050 --> 00:14:25,240 that that practise of re-evaluation is also something that should be done in the future and paving the way for that is very important. 136 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:33,940 Yeah. And to give just a little bit of extra hope, I think we're also living in an extremely transformative time for museums and museum professionals. 137 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:41,080 There's a whole lot of public interest in anti-racism, in decolonial theory and in holding museums accountable. 138 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:49,630 So it's a really interesting time not only to be working in museums, but to be just entering the field as the four of us and the intern squad are. 139 00:14:49,630 --> 00:14:56,140 And I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens when we finally get jobs and enter the workforce. 140 00:14:56,140 --> 00:15:02,770 And I know from my studies at the U of T that a lot of the people who I am working with and being in school with 141 00:15:02,770 --> 00:15:08,230 right now are really interested in the same things that we are in making sure that museums change positively. 142 00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:13,060 So if everyone out there is looking for faster change, I I think it is coming. 143 00:15:13,060 --> 00:15:18,640 I think that we are creating a workforce and a contingent of people who really want to see museums change, 144 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,350 who really want to do good work and the people who have been working in museums thus far. 145 00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:25,600 We owe them an enormous debt for taking us this far. 146 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:33,790 But this is an extremely important moment in museum history, and I think that we're raising a group of museum professionals who are rising to meet it. 147 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:38,160 I'm full of optimism, especially after doing this wonderful podcast. 148 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:44,470 Yeah, I think that's very, very helpful. I really did implement some changes. 149 00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:52,090 Moving forward, we're going to release a report suggesting some of the more tangible changes that we have 150 00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:59,830 recognised in the collections department policy before it's rewritten for the new accreditation. 151 00:15:59,830 --> 00:16:06,760 And we're also not just us, but other members of the squad will be looking at producing maybe some blog posts 152 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,070 to go along side to kind of reflect upon our more personal journeys and themes. 153 00:16:12,070 --> 00:16:17,500 So, yeah, have a little look at the Pitt Rivers Museum's website for that again. 154 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:21,550 Thanks. I'm Becky. I'm a massive student at the University of Glasgow. 155 00:16:21,550 --> 00:16:31,180 And yeah, if anyone wants to hire and everyone belongs to them, but please let us know. 156 00:16:31,180 --> 00:16:40,420 I'm Megan Man from the University of Toronto. I have enjoyed this podcast and getting to know the interns squad and our fantastic guests immensely. 157 00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:47,170 I am really looking forward to seeing where we go, and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to get to learn alongside you guys and 158 00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:51,070 from our fantastic guests who gave up their time so willingly to talk to you, 159 00:16:51,070 --> 00:16:56,350 the intern squad, about their experiences with decolonisation in museums and especially to Muranga, 160 00:16:56,350 --> 00:17:03,460 who has helped us all through this with the benevolent grace of a wonderful mother in. 161 00:17:03,460 --> 00:17:08,470 Thanks, Megan. And I'm your bottom and I'm a massive student at Lady University. 162 00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:14,350 Thank you very much, everyone. It's been great working on this podcast, especially during a global pandemic. 163 00:17:14,350 --> 00:17:21,280 It's been great to still connect with other parts of the world. I think like we've connected with almost all continents. 164 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,910 Well, that's not true, but not an Antarctica, for sure. 165 00:17:24,910 --> 00:17:34,120 But it's been great to stay connected here from other people, people working in different fields, artists, curators, staff members. 166 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:43,270 I've really enjoyed it. So thanks to everyone who's been part of this podcast and thanks to the listeners. 167 00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:50,050 That was the Rivers Museum's Matters of Policy podcast produced by Darcy Woodhouse. 168 00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:57,280 Yet boom maker man Alexis Barriere and Bobble Hat Sound Music by Jack Forcett. 169 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:09,851 Voiceover by who? A special thank you to Muranga, Thomas Oslo and the Knowledge Exchange.