1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:08,250 We'll have a brief summary of the paper by its author, Patrick Emerton. 2 00:00:09,990 --> 00:00:12,810 So to say this is actually a co-authored paper. 3 00:00:12,930 --> 00:00:24,120 So with my own Monash colleague Toby Hadfield, I hope the paper is clear enough in its overall purposes. 4 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:33,270 What we're trying to do is look at how various possible positions in relation to just war, and particularly not exclusively. 5 00:00:33,270 --> 00:00:39,120 As you said, Belgium can be seen as being sort of grounded in deeper conceptions of political morality. 6 00:00:40,380 --> 00:00:45,090 In the first section, we distinguish three different types of defence of war. 7 00:00:45,090 --> 00:00:51,300 So defence against genocide, homelands, defence, which we characterise as defence against expulsion. 8 00:00:51,450 --> 00:00:54,840 The problem should also, I think, be extended to include defence against enslavement. 9 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,430 And then what we regard as more problematic category of political defence, 10 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:05,970 which is we defence of a political control over a particular population or particular territory. 11 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,140 We then go on to consider taking it. 12 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:16,860 The ordinary principles of individual self-defence would justify wars in defence against genocide or wars in homeland defence. 13 00:01:16,950 --> 00:01:21,479 We then go on to consider what would be needed to justify wars and political 14 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,760 defences of characterised it and talk a bit about what that would require. 15 00:01:26,970 --> 00:01:36,930 And to summarise it, what we think is key is what sort of values can be said to be being defended in the context of political defence, 16 00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:47,310 such that it's justified to create the engagements and exposing many people to potentially lethal harm in the cause of political defence. 17 00:01:48,570 --> 00:01:55,500 And we argue that a sort of position which we characterise broadly, but I hope intuitively, plausibly has liberal cosmopolitanism, 18 00:01:55,890 --> 00:02:04,020 is going to have a lot of trouble identifying any state other than a liberal state as enjoying the privilege of political defence. 19 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:17,760 In the second section of the paper, we going to try to bring out some sort of further features of the liberal cosmopolitan approach to just war. 20 00:02:18,870 --> 00:02:24,719 We argue we have a legal date or through Jim that I want to summarise now. 21 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:33,060 But in another paper, Toby and I have argued that moral equality of combatants can be defended through certain arguments, 22 00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:36,260 and we argue that liberal cosmopolitans won't have that available to them. 23 00:02:36,270 --> 00:02:43,409 So in a sense, I guess unsurprisingly, particularly for members of this audience, they end up being committed to sort of non traditional, 24 00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:51,870 although apparently now orthodox symmetry in relation to this in Bella on on you said bellum. 25 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:59,160 We argue that the liberal cosmopolitans are going to have an asymmetric account there. 26 00:02:59,550 --> 00:03:08,340 And again, it might not be surprising that Liberal cosmopolitans will be sceptical of neo liberal states having a political defence of privilege, 27 00:03:09,090 --> 00:03:12,630 that we try to bring out some features of that that are perhaps not entirely obvious. 28 00:03:13,170 --> 00:03:20,250 In particular, the, we think certain features of the universalism to characterise as Liberal cosmopolitanism 29 00:03:20,730 --> 00:03:25,500 will lead to liberal cosmopolitans having quite a low threshold for defence of others, 30 00:03:25,710 --> 00:03:31,920 which then is likely to license sort of a broader range of interventions than certainly tradition would permit, 31 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:35,130 and perhaps also that intuition might seem to permit. 32 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:43,469 And we also argue that because national self-determination movements for various both sort of a sort 33 00:03:43,470 --> 00:03:49,120 of a merely empirical but also perhaps somewhat deeper reasons are likely to be non-liberal liberal. 34 00:03:49,230 --> 00:03:53,490 Cosmopolitans are also likely to have an adverse view of national self-determination 35 00:03:53,490 --> 00:03:57,479 and indeed perhaps slightly odd view that it would be better to first 36 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:06,060 subject peoples to wait for a liberal state to intervene on their behalf than to act in their own national self-determination through nonlinear means. 37 00:04:07,710 --> 00:04:14,820 In the third section of the paper, we consider sort of some alternative accounts of political morality. 38 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:22,800 Unlike itself yesterday, we think that there are interesting differences between Walser's account and rules account, 39 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:31,230 and we try to bring some of them out and we think that A rolls through his account of international public reason is able to give a plausible, 40 00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:37,350 a tenable story about what value might be set up against individual involvement of inviolability 41 00:04:37,770 --> 00:04:43,050 to then permit a privileged political defence to arise at least some non-liberal states. 42 00:04:43,740 --> 00:04:46,590 But we argue they'll still be some sort of limitations there. 43 00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:52,649 So you still get something quite non-traditional out of rolls and you're really going to, we say, have to go to quite a romantic story, 44 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:59,790 a romantic national story to get anything like sort of traditional common sense in the conclusion of. 45 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:07,159 Then at the last section we go on to ask, having looked at these various pictures, 46 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,360 is the value that these various accounts of political morality can affirm the mod warrant. 47 00:05:12,380 --> 00:05:20,270 Political I'm a political self-defence really valuable enough to license widespread killing. 48 00:05:21,350 --> 00:05:28,129 And we think if your ends of the honourable position your commitment to national self-determination and that value would really 49 00:05:28,130 --> 00:05:37,130 have to be very romantic perhaps in the light of 20th century history and plausibly romantic to think that that's justified. 50 00:05:37,130 --> 00:05:42,500 Which means if any of that was so, then you'd be at least a type of limited pacifist. 51 00:05:42,500 --> 00:05:47,300 Accepting the war is justified only in respect of defence against genocide or homeland defence. 52 00:05:47,990 --> 00:05:52,280 And we say that liberal cosmopolitans, because of the great value they place on individual inviolability, 53 00:05:52,670 --> 00:05:58,810 are probably compelled towards that sort of limited pacifism, which again is a sort of a, 54 00:05:58,850 --> 00:06:06,169 we think in kind of an interesting and non-intuitive result that I think a lot of the we feel that a lot of the 55 00:06:06,170 --> 00:06:12,229 contemporary approaches in just war so tend to accept that Liberal states will still have a fairly robust privilege, 56 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:16,830 privileged political defence, but we think that's probably doubtful. So that's the summary group. 57 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:21,530 COMMENTATOR is James Patterson from Manchester. Okay, great. 58 00:06:22,130 --> 00:06:30,170 Now before I start, I say I'm up on you Patrick's article in PPA, but I thought, well, I'd Google them and see what came up. 59 00:06:30,170 --> 00:06:36,140 And I think number three was a Patrick Hamilton Appreciation Society on Facebook. 60 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,230 I knew that I was going to have a very tough gig when when the leading leading line is. 61 00:06:42,380 --> 00:06:55,580 The man's a genius. But you're right, which is that's actually written by equity in a law lecture. 62 00:06:55,580 --> 00:07:00,740 Another philosophy lecturer that's actually read about you as an equity in trusts is in a very different tonight. 63 00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:06,889 Okay. Let me I'll give a very brief summary. 64 00:07:06,890 --> 00:07:08,420 As I understand Patrick and Tobi, 65 00:07:08,690 --> 00:07:17,720 I'll try and cover all the bits that Patrick just went over so Patrick can tie the concern with what I call the privilege of political defence. 66 00:07:18,050 --> 00:07:27,470 Now, this fits this privilege has two features endangerment, where our state may justifiably endanger its own citizens in its defence and force, 67 00:07:27,770 --> 00:07:34,280 where the importance of a political organisation licenses the use of force and thus the exposure of its own citizens and opponents, 68 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:40,639 citizens potentially lethal harm. Now, most of the paper, as Patrick suggested, 69 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,290 is concerned with considering which particular states possess this political defensive 70 00:07:45,290 --> 00:07:49,430 privilege and also outlining different conceptions and requirements of this privilege, 71 00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:53,870 and particularly the requirement of normative integration between the government and citizens. 72 00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:58,100 Now, Patrick and Toby claim on the one hand, that a liberal, cosmopolitan, 73 00:07:58,370 --> 00:08:05,810 liberal cosmopolitan position and liberal state may enjoy this privilege, because in the case of endangerment, of commitments, 74 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:11,150 individual autonomy and its ability to articulate its decision to go to war in terms of public reason, 75 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:16,100 and because in the case of force and liberal state is the realisation of individual autonomy 76 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,750 and potentially the kind of hence was the idea of individuals political self-determination. 77 00:08:22,250 --> 00:08:28,550 On the other hand, they argue that liberal cosmopolitan says very high cosmopolitanism sets a very high threshold for normative integration, 78 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:33,170 which means that non-liberal states don't possess the political defensive privilege. 79 00:08:34,370 --> 00:08:37,339 And so, as Patrick says, that they think that liberal, 80 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:43,550 cosmopolitan cosmopolitanism presents a widespread license for a range of humanitarian interventions. 81 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:45,260 Now, in addition, 82 00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:54,499 they claim that liberal cosmopolitans can't explain why any particular Liberal government has a political defence of privilege without 83 00:08:54,500 --> 00:09:02,620 also citing the voluntary associations may possess the political defensive privilege or endorsing an ancient liberal appeal to security. 84 00:09:02,930 --> 00:09:04,520 And this means that states enjoy, at best, 85 00:09:04,730 --> 00:09:11,120 a privilege to defend themselves from challenges to non-liberal state forms of government, but not against other liberal states. 86 00:09:12,590 --> 00:09:18,740 Okay, so that's how I understand the paper now. For the most part, they seem to be concerned with liberal liberal imperialism. 87 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:24,290 And so they suggest at one point that the liberal cosmopolitan view seems like this give rise to the danger of excessive 88 00:09:24,290 --> 00:09:29,900 intervention both by liberal states and against other liberal states and by any state against more liberal states. 89 00:09:29,930 --> 00:09:35,540 In page 26. Now, in my discussion, I want to present some arguments against this view. 90 00:09:36,180 --> 00:09:42,620 I'm not going to argue that liberal cosmopolitanism may be far less, far less interventionist than Patrick and Toby imply. 91 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:52,510 So Milwaukee, first, as a matter of principle, I think morality of war, liberal cosmopolitans may be less prone to vention. 92 00:09:53,080 --> 00:10:01,870 But before I think so, I think it's worth noting that the fact that liberal cosmopolitans might seem to deny non-liberal states 93 00:10:01,870 --> 00:10:09,030 a right of political defence against intervention from liberal states shouldn't seem to be surprising. 94 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,400 So liberal states deny the legitimacy of non-liberal states. 95 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:17,499 States that lack legitimacy in the deep morality of or at least may be subject to intervention. 96 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:22,840 So it seems to me it's almost self evident, almost perhaps tautological that for liberal cosmopolitans, 97 00:10:23,050 --> 00:10:29,470 non-liberal states don't possess a just cause to use force to protect their non-liberal states from intervention by people states. 98 00:10:29,530 --> 00:10:38,349 Okay. Notwithstanding that point, let me not present five reasons why a liberal cosmopolitan might not be keen to advocate intervention. 99 00:10:38,350 --> 00:10:42,400 Five more principled reasons so of so more deeper reasons. 100 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:50,980 Plus, Patrick can take you suggest that liberal cosmopolitans may prefer intervention to a liberal state by legal states, 101 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:58,090 the national liberation of a self-determination movement. This is because, they argue the majority of self-determination movements are not liberal, 102 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:02,410 since they lack the political opportunity and resources to establish themselves in a liberal basis. 103 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:09,640 However, I think that this misses the point that liberal cosmopolitans could have a forward looking account of national self-determination movements. 104 00:11:10,270 --> 00:11:14,620 Well, the legitimacy of a movement depends on whether it's reasonably expect it to form a Liberal 105 00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:18,730 government and not whether it's Liberal now and if it's likely to form a Liberal government. 106 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:27,400 Liberal cosmopolitans, I think, wouldn't necessarily endorse intervention instead of a self-determination movement, because that's the first one. 107 00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:34,089 Second, as I said, Patrick and Toby suggest that a liberal cosmopolitan can't explain why a particular 108 00:11:34,090 --> 00:11:37,719 set of liberal political arrangements can't be defended against any alternative. 109 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:44,890 And this means that they think the liberal states are immune to attack by other liberal states wanting to depose another Liberal government. 110 00:11:44,930 --> 00:11:48,010 So I think that it's a footnote that draws on Symonds. 111 00:11:49,180 --> 00:11:55,629 Now, I think that a plausible explanation can be offered as to why liberal cosmopolitanism might not be willing to sanction 112 00:11:55,630 --> 00:12:04,630 such intervention in a liberal democracy that citizens participate in their elections for their particular government. 113 00:12:04,930 --> 00:12:11,350 So any alternative in government imposed by a third party wouldn't be elected by the people, and so it lacked legitimacy. 114 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:17,380 In other words, citizens and liberal democracy seemed to me to be tied to that particular government because they voted for it, 115 00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:22,780 and changing that government without their consent, in effect, would discard the results of the ballot boxes. 116 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,960 And so this connection to a of the government, to its citizens, 117 00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:33,010 seems to present a reason why you might think that liberal states have a defensive privilege against other liberal states. 118 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:37,650 Okay, thirdly, a fairly straightforward point. 119 00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:41,500 If a liberal cosmopolitan holds that there's a difference between doing, allow, doing and allowing, 120 00:12:41,710 --> 00:12:48,160 there might be far less willing to endorse intervention in general, and especially when what is being allowed is egregious. 121 00:12:48,580 --> 00:12:55,030 So such as in cases where a state lacks political defence, a political defensive privilege, but isn't engaged in mass killing. 122 00:12:56,470 --> 00:13:01,330 Fourthly, it's common in a liberal cosmopolitan literature to defend the principle of external 123 00:13:01,330 --> 00:13:08,110 support and put generally those subject to the intervention need to be need to welcome it. 124 00:13:08,110 --> 00:13:09,459 So they need to endorse it somehow. 125 00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:18,250 So this might take the form of an opinion polls and the victims or potentially burdened bystanders or more indirectly, 126 00:13:18,250 --> 00:13:22,120 the use of secondary sources or indicators of the citizens opinions. 127 00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:26,050 For instance, by reliable intermediaries like supply, 128 00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:32,180 might this kind of consent principle or some sort of external support either might be important in a liberal cosmopolitan position? 129 00:13:32,980 --> 00:13:38,260 Well, most obviously intervention might be harmful to those subject to it. 130 00:13:38,830 --> 00:13:44,620 So those who are culpable for the situation but may have to take on its burdens should have some input, 131 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:48,880 although perhaps not a veto about whether the intervention actually occurs, 132 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,970 i.e. because whether they are actually going to accept the risk of these burdens being placed on them. 133 00:13:56,110 --> 00:14:00,100 In addition, it seems important as a matter of individual political self-determination, 134 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,980 the kind of value that Patrick and Toby appeal to, that those subjects, 135 00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:13,060 the intervention, have some say about any changes to their government, even if the current government is illegitimate according to Liberal standards. 136 00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:18,820 If an intervener unilaterally imposes a new government without consulting the individuals that be subject to this government, 137 00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:25,150 it may seem to reduce further the small amount of individual self-government that currently exists. 138 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:32,830 So my point then is a liberal cosmopolitan mind or some sort of consent principle, and this further reduce any interventionist tendencies. 139 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,650 Okay. The fifth point concerns intervention by non-liberal states. 140 00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:42,210 Patrick and Toby claim that on a liberal cosmopolitan view, 141 00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:48,170 liberal states composites the political defensive privilege against other non-liberal states. 142 00:14:48,180 --> 00:14:53,190 And so in the papers, they cite the case of Iraq and Kuwait. 143 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:58,530 And they suggest that that's the case where neither side possessed a political defensive privilege. 144 00:15:00,210 --> 00:15:08,370 Now, on the contrary, it seems to me that although it might affect the permissibility permissibility of liberal intervention, 145 00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:15,540 I think a liberal cosmopolitan could in principle endorse a non-liberal state's defensive privileges 146 00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:20,640 in the case of the forcible change of government to an even the more non liberal government. 147 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:42,570 So I think that a liberal cosmopolitan could defend the defensive privileges in the case of an even changes to an even more non Liberal government. 148 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:47,460 And I think Kasper kind of raised a similar point in one of the cases. 149 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,640 It raised a similar point in one of its questions earlier yesterday. 150 00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:59,639 So although a non-liberal state may not enjoy a fully fledged defence of privilege that justifies endangerment and force against liberal states, 151 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,050 they might possess a limited political defensive privilege against a non-liberal aggressor. 152 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:10,440 And so this would be the case. Defending the action would be comparatively worse in terms of individual autonomy, 153 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:17,040 which is the value that Patrick and Toby appeal to, to explain why liberal states possess a political defensive right. 154 00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:23,549 So Kuwait might enjoy a limited political defensive privilege against a successful 155 00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:30,510 intervention by Iraq because ruled by Saddam's tyranny would be to be even worse individual, 156 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:34,140 individual autonomy than under the Kuwaiti constitutional monarchy. 157 00:16:35,010 --> 00:16:44,940 So, for instance, the I found out I found out this from the great Wikipedia that magically Aloma, which is the National Assembly of Kuwait, 158 00:16:44,940 --> 00:16:50,040 may be abolished and that as a result, there may be an even lower degree of political self-determination in Kuwait. 159 00:16:51,190 --> 00:16:54,750 Okay, so this might justify something approaching endangerment. 160 00:16:55,950 --> 00:17:01,350 However, this limited defensive privilege, I think, might not fully justify the full principles of endangerment and force. 161 00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:09,210 It might not permit substantial costs being borne by the Kuwaiti civilians in defence of their a bit less non-liberal state, 162 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,970 but it might still permit resort to force and potentially some sort of embellished privileges as well. 163 00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:21,050 Okay. So those are kind of five more deeper reasons, as I call them, in the written version of the paper. 164 00:17:21,180 --> 00:17:21,790 This response. 165 00:17:23,970 --> 00:17:29,820 I'm going to briefly I'll say something about two kind of fairly obvious, but more pragmatic arguments I think should just be flagged up. 166 00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:36,090 So Patrick and Toby suggest a couple of points that the personality constraint will prohibit the use of force. 167 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:43,200 But I think they generally downplay the importance of this concern as a constraint on liberal interventionism in the light of Iraq and Afghanistan. 168 00:17:43,230 --> 00:17:46,650 We all know now that changes in governments, 169 00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:54,299 possible changes in government are very unlikely to succeed and in very few limited circumstances because simply that unlikely to be successful. 170 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:57,860 And I think in practice this is going to be a notable constraint. 171 00:17:57,870 --> 00:18:04,290 It's going to pull our intuitions why we might think the intervention isn't isn't justifiable. 172 00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:11,849 Secondly, I think it's worth reiterating that. The deep morality of war is only one part. 173 00:18:11,850 --> 00:18:13,499 It's an important part of the morality of war, 174 00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:19,200 but it's only one part of a fully fledged account of the morality of war and a fully fledged liberal cosmopolitan position. 175 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,860 We need to take you need to take into account more pragmatic concerns. 176 00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:30,660 So liberal cosmopolitans might might endorse a highly limited political defence of privilege as a matter of the deep morality of war. 177 00:18:31,230 --> 00:18:36,780 But I think they could also present a real consequentialist justification for maintaining a much higher threshold. 178 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:47,610 And such an argument might run as follows Given the costs of intervention in general, both in terms of lives and resources. 179 00:18:47,820 --> 00:18:53,850 There needs to be a high bar for intervention to be justified in order for there is a sufficient room for it to be proportionate. 180 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,170 And this might be through a restriction on the use of military force two occasions where there is a 181 00:18:58,170 --> 00:19:04,440 qualitatively and quantitatively significant amount of good that can be achieved to outweigh any potential harm. 182 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,530 And this might lead to saying that somebody's life is only in cases of mass violation of basic human rights. 183 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,600 The intervention could potentially have just cause. Moreover, 184 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:21,360 you might think that maintaining a role where you can intervene in cases of where the political 185 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:28,050 defensive privilege is lacking is very much open to abuse in in reality by powerful intervening states. 186 00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:32,550 And so you need a higher bar to reduce any possibilities of abuse. 187 00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:39,310 Now, this kind of kind of real consequences thinking, I think, has a further implication for Patrick and Toby's argument. 188 00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:46,030 They suggest that the rules of intervention in international law based on the non-liberal value of national self-determination. 189 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,340 However, I think that a credible case could be made for the view of extension of a political 190 00:19:51,340 --> 00:19:55,090 defence of privilege and potentially other sovereign rights in international law. 191 00:19:56,530 --> 00:20:02,080 It's quite a lot of states, and based on the liberal cosmopolitan role consequentialist vision. 192 00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:06,010 So maintaining rules that generally protect states places with defensive 193 00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:11,500 privileges might be the currently optimal way of protecting individuals rights, 194 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,320 given the risks of abuse by a more permissive environment. 195 00:20:15,790 --> 00:20:21,069 Okay, so I'm not convinced and that liberal Cosmopolitan isn't necessarily that interventionist both in the deep, 196 00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:25,090 moralistic, almost practically and, well, Germany. 197 00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:31,420 I think we should be careful of criticising or endorsing a a position for why it seems to sanction in a deep morality of war, 198 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:36,070 practical moral considerations, whether they concern the roles played by institutions, 199 00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:39,790 epistemic difficulties, a likelihood of compliance in the abuse, I think, 200 00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:45,100 will often change the conclusions fairly radically and which perhaps tends to be a bit more upfront about this. 201 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:49,480 Okay. So I have a lengthy, overly lengthy discussion. 202 00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:57,340 Yes. So the Janes are generously forwarded me his comments a couple of days ago. 203 00:20:57,430 --> 00:21:03,640 So that might have a few notes on on the point about obviousness. 204 00:21:03,850 --> 00:21:11,739 In a sense the true although I think some some features of what we try to bring out aren't always immediately obvious, 205 00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:17,240 particularly the implications for national self-determination movements, the data, 206 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:22,720 our argument about the limitations on liberal states defending themselves against other liberal states. 207 00:21:23,050 --> 00:21:29,410 So we think there is some stuff that is not entirely obvious. But, you know, we're moving on sort of to the five points. 208 00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:35,650 The the final point about the Iraq Kuwait example and the idea that sort of 209 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,210 the slightly inadequate could defend itself against the radical inadequate. 210 00:21:40,510 --> 00:21:46,180 Sounds plausible. On the third point about doing and allowing. 211 00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:51,430 I don't want to think about that a bit more, but sort of on the face of it, that kind of sounds plausible. 212 00:21:52,990 --> 00:22:00,280 Picking up the other three points and the point about being forward looking in relation to national self-determination movements, 213 00:22:01,270 --> 00:22:04,480 I still don't think that's going to get you very far. I mean, 214 00:22:05,980 --> 00:22:15,219 just sort of when I kind of trawl through my own sort of limited historical knowledge in India and the United 215 00:22:15,220 --> 00:22:20,830 States are two reasonably clear examples of national self-determination resulting in a liberal state. 216 00:22:21,910 --> 00:22:23,560 It's hard to think of a great many others. 217 00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:30,459 So the forward looking requirement for statehood, so looking at movements which are sort of currently still in action, 218 00:22:30,460 --> 00:22:35,620 just recently squashed in always going to be controversial or the real examples that the LTTE, 219 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:43,750 PKK, PLO would have seemed to be justified even if we look forward and it doesn't no great prospects there an adequate liberal statehood. 220 00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:48,520 I think historically the movements in south eastern Europe against Turkey and 221 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:53,799 against Austria-Hungary after Hungarian empire good at African decolonisation. 222 00:22:53,800 --> 00:23:00,070 And even if you say the poster child for something like we're not decolonisation for self-determination in Africa, 223 00:23:00,070 --> 00:23:04,640 as the ANC has really struggled to achieve anything like radical liberal state. 224 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:11,800 So I thinking even forward looking this I don't think is really going to address the issue of those issues about political 225 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:18,280 capacity to establish liberal institutions don't only apply when you're sort of fighting at the kind of guerrilla stage, 226 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:24,940 but history since they really carry through for all sorts of kind of deep reasons about those situations. 227 00:23:25,780 --> 00:23:29,590 And the second point about voting. 228 00:23:32,130 --> 00:23:37,320 The argument in the paper he, I'll happily concede would benefit from development. 229 00:23:37,620 --> 00:23:44,819 But there's at least a sketch of a response there, which is that we sort of try to fork the liberal cosmopolitan, 230 00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:51,180 that if they appeal to choice or something in the neighbourhood of or metaphorically the choice of which I think would say voting as an instance. 231 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:59,580 It becomes quite challenging in our view for the Liberal Cosmopolitan to explain why other sorts of identity, realising autonomy, 232 00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:08,880 affirming voluntary organisations that also inherit the privilege of political defence, which seems like a kind of a pretty strange conclusion. 233 00:24:09,810 --> 00:24:17,550 But if you try to look for some concern on sort of the value of political association, of purely political associations, 234 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:28,290 then the door sides appears to be open for the proponents of a more sort of a collectivist or nationalist approach to appeal to that same value 235 00:24:28,290 --> 00:24:35,940 without having consideration to extend the privilege of political self-defence and said that value in opposition to individual autonomy. 236 00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:42,450 So it's I think the voting idea is sort of is vulnerable to that fork. 237 00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:51,540 And your fourth comment was about the sort of popular input, perhaps not full fledged popular veto. 238 00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:03,719 A couple of I think it's an interesting point and I think what going have had a few sort of responses to that in first at 239 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:11,670 least plausibly that rests upon some principle of collective political agency and the value of collective political agency, 240 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:16,980 which again is problematic for Cosmopolitan, sort of for the reasons I've just been giving. 241 00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:24,300 There are practical issues, for example, if the burdens fall on one part of a population, 242 00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:28,950 but the benefits on another side as opposed to intervention to defend an oppressed minority, 243 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:35,520 the issue of who gets polled and how and so on, I think actually is likely to be really quite challenging. 244 00:25:35,550 --> 00:25:39,990 Meaning in general, the issue of relations between any subset of a population and its governance 245 00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:43,470 legitimacy can be problematic even in a sort of a liberal democratic state, 246 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,850 in the sorts of situations where intervention is going on insofar as interventions lost. 247 00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:50,280 And so I think that's likely to be highly problematic because that's probably 248 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,310 what generated the permissibility of the intervention in the first place. 249 00:25:54,270 --> 00:26:00,300 And also this whole notion of popular input, of popular veto articulates some new criterion for political legitimacy, 250 00:26:00,690 --> 00:26:03,720 which the implications of which are actually potentially quite radical. 251 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,569 For example, in Westminster, systems of government, of which obviously this country has one, in Australia has one, 252 00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:13,350 the government can be changed without popular input through vote in the floor of the Parliament. 253 00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:20,490 In the United States, the Constitution can be changed to a popular input through a vote in Congress in state legislatures. 254 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:27,750 So we kind of accept a whole lot of present regimes with even quite radical changes in forms of government can be legitimate without popular input. 255 00:26:28,110 --> 00:26:35,790 And if suddenly, in the case of certain interventions, we've set up this kind of referendum criterion for legitimacy. 256 00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:41,790 Interesting. But the flow three implications, I think, have to be thought through before we can confidently endorse that. 257 00:26:42,090 --> 00:26:51,540 So that's the first sort of and the fourth point. Then on the final point you made about pragmatism and rule consequentialist and whether 258 00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:56,150 international law should be seen as grounded in that rather than resting upon this, 259 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,719 a more kind of romantic nationalist foundations that we suggest. Okay. 260 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,330 And maybe but I'm feeling here and I'm drawing, I guess, 261 00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:12,420 particularly on the position roles articulated in a lot of people is also sort of they're implicitly in most of the for the reasons we give up, 262 00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:20,249 we think the rules captures it better. That kind of approach doesn't really fully seem to capture the value of sovereignty and that sort of approach. 263 00:27:20,250 --> 00:27:25,229 It seems that the sovereignty of non-liberal states and polities is sort of dependent 264 00:27:25,230 --> 00:27:30,420 upon some kind of contingent concession rather than a genuine deep equality of policies. 265 00:27:31,740 --> 00:27:35,580 So those sort of there's a certain sense in which under that approach, 266 00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:40,980 international law wouldn't be regarding non-liberal polities as fully equal participants in international society. 267 00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:47,030 And that sort of, in our view, really leaves the imperialism concern intact. 268 00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:52,770 Domain rules in law. People doesn't talk about liberal imperialism, but it does talk about real condescension of liberal condescension. 269 00:27:53,490 --> 00:28:00,059 And so my feeling is that that kind of analysis still leaves some of those concerns intact. 270 00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:06,570 And that's why we think if you really do want to just you know, we're not saying the current international status quo is justified. 271 00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:12,600 We're kind of agnostic in the papers to whether nationalism or liberalism is the superior way to go. 272 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,589 But but we I think we would say, if you want to defend something like the status quo, 273 00:28:16,590 --> 00:28:23,520 including that sense that it's not a condescension, it's a genuine equality, then you do have to move away from liberalism. 274 00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:29,320 Okay. Thanks very much. All right. 275 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,260 Let me. Write down the first two or so. 276 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:41,639 So we're going to try again conditionally to use the fingered interventions, but on the same conditions as yesterday, we can't be very many. 277 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,090 So think of it as requiring something pretty close to supreme emergency. 278 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,569 But the point that's worth making is very likely still going to be worth making 20 minutes later. 279 00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:58,230 So you can just get in line. And the other thing is you can't conduct a general dialogue on the basis of a finger. 280 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:05,310 The good news is, if you're in the list, you can I think it's very useful to let people go on for a while. 281 00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:14,970 Okay, let's see. So I got Seth and Jeff Oak has Burns and Victor and Cheney. 282 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,190 Okay, that's plenty. Okay, Seth, thanks. 283 00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:26,430 I really enjoyed the paper. And I think a reflection then it's it's not really a criticism. 284 00:29:26,430 --> 00:29:29,730 It's just an observation, I guess that just occurred to me. 285 00:29:31,470 --> 00:29:36,750 So one of the things that we're aware we're doing some of the things on a few papers is think about, 286 00:29:36,750 --> 00:29:42,630 you know, what values might justify this political offensive privilege. 287 00:29:43,230 --> 00:29:49,120 And one of the problems of sort of implicitly wrestling where they're thinking about is this Simmons particularity problem. 288 00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:52,920 And and it struck me that in a way, 289 00:29:52,920 --> 00:30:00,569 we're kind of thinking about maybe we're thinking about the values that underlie the political offensive privilege along their own sort of analogy. 290 00:30:00,570 --> 00:30:05,530 Maybe Simmons is as well. So here's a thought, right? And what is it that grounds my right? 291 00:30:05,530 --> 00:30:10,350 And this is going to be a fully blown, lame domestic analogy. 292 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,790 One of the values that underlie my right to self-defence, and one of them is my moral statement. 293 00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:25,200 Okay, how do we understand the basis of moral status? It's going to be grounded in characteristics in which you can have more or less. 294 00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:28,920 So I suppose it's something to do with consciousness of self-awareness. 295 00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:36,450 There can be some people who can be pretty, pretty dumb if you still cross the threshold, if you like, for having moral status as persons. 296 00:30:36,750 --> 00:30:39,809 And there can be some people who are incredibly reflective and amazing and just 297 00:30:39,810 --> 00:30:43,650 because they're incredibly reflective and have these wonderfully developed minds, 298 00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:46,530 that doesn't give them any greater rights of self-defence. Right? 299 00:30:47,010 --> 00:30:50,190 So the rights of self-defence that we have as individuals is partly grounded in these 300 00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:56,819 characteristics that we have crossing a certain threshold and of all of liability, 301 00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:58,890 of being a range property, something like that. 302 00:31:00,690 --> 00:31:05,549 And it struck me that when we're talking about the political defence of privilege and we tend to be thinking, 303 00:31:05,550 --> 00:31:07,920 I think in terms of while if you're grounded in a value, 304 00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:15,450 then if the other side's going to have more value is in this how I phrase doing it, the other states have more value than the one that has no value. 305 00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:21,360 Right? Which is kind of analogous to saying if some really, really clever guy wants to come kill me and I should, you know, 306 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:28,050 I shouldn't have the right to self-defence against him because he realises the values on which my right to self-defence is grounded. 307 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,270 And so that's so I wonder whether we should be and I think this fits better with doing this. 308 00:31:33,270 --> 00:31:39,000 Let's go with your analysis, which suggests that once the state passes the threshold of normative integration, 309 00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:43,720 they're going to then have this political equivalent. So I just wanted to offer that. 310 00:31:45,390 --> 00:31:50,010 Yeah, I think I agree with the implications of what you're saying. 311 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,150 So, I mean, Rawls has the political perception of the person. 312 00:31:54,270 --> 00:32:00,360 And equally, a lot of people see you have lots of international blue conception of a people, of peoples, 313 00:32:00,540 --> 00:32:07,080 and it is a threshold account and that's why it's a decent hierarchical resample get over the law, 314 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,510 even though in Rawls own view, for example, they're not as valuable as liberal states. 315 00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:16,230 But I mean, because of his international public reason framework, 316 00:32:16,620 --> 00:32:24,269 that that's a purely private judgement of his in the same way that a liberal Catholic might wish that everyone else was also a Catholic. 317 00:32:24,270 --> 00:32:29,760 But, you know, liberal democracy sort of can't politically and publicly act on that as a purely private desire. 318 00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:36,090 So I guess that's the point that we're making. Is that why did it cross the threshold? 319 00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:42,330 I mean, our discussion of Rawls is sort of truncated. I think interpreting Law of Peoples is very, very challenging. 320 00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:48,030 I think David Reidy, I think, has kind of part of the best account in print, 321 00:32:48,030 --> 00:32:53,909 although modestly suggests to my own account that a footnote in the collection on the WTO and human rights, 322 00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:57,750 I think, also tries to get rules pretty right, and it's fairly consistent with rulings in hand. 323 00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:04,740 But the way out of the rules is that to cross the threshold, you have to be a genuinely self-determining collective. 324 00:33:05,130 --> 00:33:08,880 And that means that you can't be in a situation where persons are being oppressed. 325 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,580 Sometimes you that the phrase was a slice of logic. 326 00:33:12,150 --> 00:33:19,350 And I think his articulation of his notorious limited list of human rights is these are what you need in order not to be a slave society, 327 00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:23,670 which I'm a Christian, in order to be genuine, a genuine self-determining collective. 328 00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:28,440 And it still actually rules out a whole lot of states which are out there in the world. 329 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:38,819 Simply enjoying the privilege of political defence. So it's the question of how does one plausibly articulate the threshold that I think liberals, 330 00:33:38,820 --> 00:33:47,040 I think still are going to set a pretty high and even role sets it implausibly high relative to international common sense. 331 00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:50,120 We're not disciples of we have high simplicity. 332 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,720 But it does it does help when you're talking about the liberal state defending itself against another liberal state. 333 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,160 Right. Because the fact that the other liberal state is more liberal. 334 00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:03,960 So Rawls certainly will give you that. I'm great rolls at that point sort of liberal cosmopolitans. 335 00:34:03,970 --> 00:34:07,560 I don't know. Say I don't know which side is favoured yet. 336 00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:09,690 Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. 337 00:34:09,690 --> 00:34:17,490 But I think that at that point, you still think articulate some value that you're setting up against individual inviolability, which I think rules it. 338 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,069 Okay, David, figure on such analogy. 339 00:34:23,070 --> 00:34:27,540 I mean, the analogy, any works, if you attribute something intrinsic value to the state, 340 00:34:28,110 --> 00:34:32,519 if you think you have a country that the states realising is entirely instrumental for the people that it serves. 341 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,719 And I think the analogy doesn't work because the value for those individuals might be 342 00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:42,030 served as well as a matter of oppression to another equally just wanting to stay. 343 00:34:46,180 --> 00:34:52,150 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that doesn't really it doesn't change the fact that much. 344 00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:57,910 But what it does, it just illustrates that the the model of just you guys, I mean, 345 00:34:57,910 --> 00:35:02,070 this is this comes a lot of this presupposes of Simmons the particularity problem 346 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,579 specifically the idea of why you get to protect your particular set of institutions, 347 00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:08,890 why they're tied to Islam. 348 00:35:09,550 --> 00:35:18,070 Um, and it's just illustrative of the fact that the same thing applies, does exactly the same thing applies to those individual rights were defending. 349 00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:22,419 Obviously to show that the analogy works. I mean at the moment it is just an analogy. 350 00:35:22,420 --> 00:35:25,180 It has no justification for force whatsoever. 351 00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:35,440 You would have to make I, I mean, on your on that I think that what you said makes me sort of at that point worry about the analogy. 352 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,899 I think for the same sort of reason David said that this and if you if you value individual 353 00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:45,549 inviolability I just can't think of any plausible argument that a really clever person killing, 354 00:35:45,550 --> 00:35:53,740 even a fairly stupid person affirms that value. Really man, unless they are informed of their preference that you be dead. 355 00:35:54,190 --> 00:35:56,560 It's kind of so crucial. I mean, that's getting that up. 356 00:35:57,190 --> 00:36:03,280 But I mean, but that's not the standard liberal kind of individual involved with value idea with inviolability is it's what is inviolability based on. 357 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,450 And inviolability is based on the characteristics that make you that grant united 358 00:36:07,450 --> 00:36:10,760 status and to give an account of those characteristics that are very good, 359 00:36:11,130 --> 00:36:15,770 they go, how different is this better realise or foster that with a clever person is. 360 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:23,890 Whereas I think I would agree with David that if that's what you're focusing on fill in the state clearly so it's interesting. 361 00:36:25,330 --> 00:36:29,350 Okay Jeff I'm. 362 00:36:31,980 --> 00:36:35,140 The the argument in Patrick's paper. 363 00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:40,050 Is framed in collectivist terms. 364 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,160 It's focussed on the rights and privileges of states. 365 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:59,620 But. Liberal cosmopolitanism in some of its variants is a radically individualist view which discounts the importance of states. 366 00:37:01,750 --> 00:37:06,280 In understanding the morality of the use of force. 367 00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:15,960 And that fact opens up. Two different distinct dimensions to the problem of intervention. 368 00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:20,700 First of all, there's a problem of the permissibility of intervention. 369 00:37:22,330 --> 00:37:27,970 And then there's secondly, the problem of the permissibility of resistance to intervention. 370 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:35,200 And you're focusing primarily on the second of those, the political defence privilege. 371 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:43,540 But it's important to note that James's fourth point about a kind of some sort 372 00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:51,730 of requirement of consent by the alleged beneficiaries of an intervention. 373 00:37:54,190 --> 00:37:56,380 An instance, let's say, a humanitarian intervention. 374 00:37:58,460 --> 00:38:07,110 Restricts the permissibility of intervention, the first of the two moral dimensions to the problem of intervention. 375 00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:19,850 I thought what you said, Patrick, in response to James's fourth point about the fact that you can have changes in political regime. 376 00:38:20,670 --> 00:38:28,709 Constitutional change and that sort of thing without popular input doesn't really address the point about intervention, 377 00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:40,470 which is intervention is not changed by force, by force of arms, by war, which is the focus of what James was discussing. 378 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:53,100 His point was that one constraint on military intervention is that those who are the ostensible beneficiaries of the intervention. 379 00:38:54,140 --> 00:39:00,800 Should have some say about whether they should be exposed to the risks of having a war fought where they live, 380 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:11,330 endangering their lives for the sake of some goals that they may or may not support, 381 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,690 even though they may be or may be alleged to be intended to benefit them. 382 00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:28,430 So that's one point. I mean, I think James is right about that. His fourth point, justified interventions have to respect the. 383 00:39:29,860 --> 00:39:33,820 Preferences of the people who are the intended beneficiaries. 384 00:39:35,490 --> 00:39:40,110 Then on the second dimension, the permissibility of resistance. 385 00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:49,620 It seems to me that the obvious thing that the liberal Cosmopolitan can say is that it may well be that the state. 386 00:39:50,530 --> 00:39:58,020 If it's illegitimate, whatever, buy whatever lives may not have any right of defence of itself. 387 00:39:58,030 --> 00:39:59,860 Meaning something like that government. 388 00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:11,800 But the people may still, as individuals may still have some collectively actionable right against violent intervention, 389 00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:18,460 even if it's alleged to be in their interests. 390 00:40:18,820 --> 00:40:27,580 So I'm not saying that I know exactly how to respond to all the challenges that you and Seth have presented 391 00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:36,399 to the idea that what's at stake in a struggle for self self-determination by people not of state, 392 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:44,770 but by people against military intervention is ever going to be enough to warrant violent resistance. 393 00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:50,560 But that's in a way, a separate question from the main issue in your paper. 394 00:40:58,410 --> 00:41:06,450 Thinking about James fourth point and the point about consent. 395 00:41:14,380 --> 00:41:14,980 There is. 396 00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:25,690 I mean, there is a difference between obviously between change of government by force of arms and charging government by a vote of no confidence. 397 00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:39,560 So on the floor of the House. I still wonder whether, in effect, kind of referendum as criterion of legitimacy, 398 00:41:41,150 --> 00:41:46,610 whether the articulation of how that applies to change by force of arms compared to 399 00:41:46,610 --> 00:41:54,860 sort of change in other contexts can be clearly articulated in a way that's plausible. 400 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:07,120 I mean, I suppose one of the issues is whether we're going to revise our Constitution to permit the death penalty, for example. 401 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,200 That has implications for some people's lives. 402 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:21,040 Did the prison, the prospective murderers, have a right of veto or special privilege in respect of that, 403 00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:27,010 as opposed to, for example, an ordinary vote sort of through ordinary sort of political means being sufficient? 404 00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:30,470 I mean, not absurd that they do. 405 00:42:30,850 --> 00:42:38,409 They're not intuitive that they do either. Is the is the analogy I mean, the example sort of states claim after basic analogy, 406 00:42:38,410 --> 00:42:43,200 that is an analogy strong enough to bear the weight of putting on it, have to think about it a bit more. 407 00:42:43,210 --> 00:42:51,040 But I'm still I'm just sort of thinking about the constitutional theory in general and forms of the way political decisions are reached. 408 00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:55,899 A referendum requirement, I just think is a very radical a very radical requirement, 409 00:42:55,900 --> 00:43:02,430 which if we're going to articulate it, we need to think through very clearly what implications what implications it has. 410 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:10,330 And the force of our support is fair. But I am worried that you're going to get domestic cases that might be unanimous in certain respects. 411 00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:16,570 I'm on the point about resistance by the people. 412 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:30,030 I'm. I mean, we certainly if the intervention licenses sort of popular resistance in defence against genocide or homeland defence, 413 00:43:30,030 --> 00:43:34,170 I mean clearly we think that it's permissible in our paper if it's. 414 00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:48,490 If it's lost in some sort of further or kind of broader ground of maintaining sort of their own political institutions or political practices. 415 00:43:51,320 --> 00:44:00,229 I guess the challenge you see is what what account are we going to give of their their entitlement 416 00:44:00,230 --> 00:44:05,720 to protect their political practices or their form of political and social organisation, 417 00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:11,090 which doesn't then in some fashion, get inherited by their state. 418 00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:17,650 For example, how does one articulate what their form of political and social life is, 419 00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:22,509 which is defensible, abstracted away from the state in which they in fact live, 420 00:44:22,510 --> 00:44:30,579 which I hypothesised in your example is it inheriting their defence of right me is challenging enough as it is to articulate 421 00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:36,400 a certain people's form of collective political and social life as a kind of an issue in sort of political sociology, 422 00:44:37,090 --> 00:44:44,290 let alone articulating that in a way that abstracts away from the state in which the government under which they actually live. 423 00:44:44,830 --> 00:44:53,260 So at that point, I guess I challenged liberal cosmopolitanism gives show us some of the sociological detail and then maybe you're right, 424 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,180 but it's certainly sociological. We think at least a sociological challenge to do that. 425 00:44:59,690 --> 00:45:07,420 Okay. Jeff's going to come back again. And then I have two fingered interventions on this, Major Underwood and Cecile. 426 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:20,080 I'll try to. First of all, I, I I'm not persuaded that the death row inmate example has very much force here, simply because. 427 00:45:20,590 --> 00:45:31,960 It's a case in which it seems to me that the death row inmate may have forfeited any right to be involved in decisions about his own punishment. 428 00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:36,970 From that point of view, if prisoners retain the right to vote. 429 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:47,829 Certainly never suppose that we should have a weighted ballot. This. On assistance by the people. 430 00:45:47,830 --> 00:45:51,250 I agree with you. The challenge here is to. 431 00:45:53,350 --> 00:45:56,440 Explain why a particular group of people have a right. 432 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:05,450 Resistance independently of their state to protect their desire to. 433 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,380 Determined collectively their own way of life. 434 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:20,049 But I'm I'm not sure I understand exactly why the state should their state should inherit their defensive riot. 435 00:46:20,050 --> 00:46:28,370 It seems to me that very often. The state and the people it governs are. 436 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:41,570 Radically alienated, and the people want independence, both from their own state and from rule by other states. 437 00:46:41,620 --> 00:46:51,000 I think of this quotation that I've cited and somewhere in the character in Graham Greene's novel, The Canadians, which is about Haiti under. 438 00:46:53,220 --> 00:46:57,050 First he says the characters and long. 439 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:06,380 Duvalier regime is. The Marines came, I think I'd fight with the Duvalier forces. 440 00:47:07,310 --> 00:47:11,540 We don't want to be ruled by Duvalier. We also don't want to be ruled by the United States. 441 00:47:13,490 --> 00:47:19,880 The Journal. So thank you for my comments or I'm having a hard time seeing how. 442 00:47:20,860 --> 00:47:26,700 Consensus of the rescue can be a principle. I granted as a pragmatic objection. 443 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,780 I actually give you a lot of stories of how hard it is to help people be helpful. 444 00:47:33,870 --> 00:47:46,510 But. The respecting the concerns of the rescued seems to presuppose the sort of value in collective autonomy that is already in question. 445 00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:48,920 All right. That's sort of the thing that I'm having. 446 00:47:49,070 --> 00:47:56,380 I'm struck is that we're going to say like the antebellum South in the United States before the Civil War. 447 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:08,490 Slaves in the antebellum South certainly got nothing close to what we would call some sort of legitimate form of government. 448 00:48:09,150 --> 00:48:12,990 They had no way to voice their their collective swill. 449 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,180 And the problem becomes why is that? 450 00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:28,200 Any expression of that will something to be respected in a principled way when we're talking about things like slavery, 451 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,540 genocide and those sorts of things. So. The problem. 452 00:48:31,540 --> 00:48:38,169 I have a concern for the rescuers. What's at issue is how do we value collective will? 453 00:48:38,170 --> 00:48:42,830 And what seems to be the principal objection to rescuing these people is some sort of collective will. 454 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,559 On. If I've understood your right. 455 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,350 I think we're looking at Greece. Yes. Yes. 456 00:48:53,530 --> 00:49:05,950 So and I'll just add in terms of sort of what we think are some of the features of some liberal cosmopolitanism that support that idea, 457 00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:09,970 that sort of why should we have regard to that collective will? 458 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,940 Even if you've got doubts that's been genuinely articulated, given there are no liberal institutions which is being done. 459 00:49:16,450 --> 00:49:22,779 Secondly, we think the universalism and the low threshold that creates the defence of others on liberal cosmopolitan 460 00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:29,229 account also makes it harder for the more difficult liberal cosmopolitan to explain why that would matter, 461 00:49:29,230 --> 00:49:37,690 in the sense that the idea that the liberal cosmopolitans idea that issues of what interests are best judged here of 462 00:49:37,690 --> 00:49:44,470 the day becomes harder to articulate because of that kind of commitment to universality and in personality and so on. 463 00:49:45,730 --> 00:49:52,110 And the bit about why the just comment about and about the death row enlightenment, 464 00:49:52,120 --> 00:50:01,930 I want to push that any further on the on the point about the why the state matters. 465 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:13,590 I'm thinking if. If you sort of asked the British people to articulate what their sort of form of common political and social life is, 466 00:50:14,530 --> 00:50:23,580 you said in doing that, you may not mention anything about your constitution, your houses of parliament, your monarchy, your laws. 467 00:50:24,750 --> 00:50:28,950 Magna Carta. What resources would they have left? 468 00:50:30,930 --> 00:50:39,780 Now, in some cases, the sort of radicalisation you talk about will obtain brought about a higher in his book, 469 00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:48,540 in his general jurisprudence of Law and Society gives the example of unhappy Micronesia, where he worked for a while as a legal official. 470 00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:52,530 And he says that there really was kind of complete alienation between the official law, 471 00:50:52,530 --> 00:50:56,459 which is really relevant only for foreign companies dealing with. Yes. And the people of Yahoo! 472 00:50:56,460 --> 00:51:02,340 Conducted entirely under customary law. And so you can get cases where the alienation is close to total in those cases. 473 00:51:02,970 --> 00:51:07,020 The psychological challenge that I suggested arises, I think can be can be met. 474 00:51:07,650 --> 00:51:14,570 But a lot of states amend the Constitution. 475 00:51:14,580 --> 00:51:23,420 The political practices probably won't be as embedded as they are in Britain, but are likely to be, I think sufficiently embedded in period. 476 00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:29,860 The modernist project has gone far enough that I do think the psychological challenge I raised won't be trivial to meet today. 477 00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:39,180 That a bit more about what I'm thinking. Jess All right, so I'm persuaded that you responded to some of Jeff's challenges. 478 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:47,040 I mean, I think it's entirely it seems to me the following two pronged position seems to me to be different. 479 00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:58,230 To wit, Stalin's Soviet Russia, rather, Stalin's regime had no claim whatsoever to Germany. 480 00:51:58,830 --> 00:52:08,460 But the Soviet citizens had a very strong defence in particular, from what we've heard by force. 481 00:52:09,660 --> 00:52:14,820 Some instances the latter. Well, it goes with the territory too. 482 00:52:14,850 --> 00:52:26,460 Just to have in mind this though, it seems to me that the difficulty for this sort of general account arises at the following point. 483 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:33,480 It may very well be that one needed in Soviet Russia at the time that the institutions of Stalin's 484 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:41,550 refusing order to prosecute citizens effectively to exercise their individual rights of compliance. 485 00:52:42,060 --> 00:52:47,310 So it seems to me that that might be one area in which you might want to apply pressure. 486 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:59,790 If it is the case that individual citizens with a lot of resistance against the truth can only be discharged through illegitimate institutions, 487 00:52:59,790 --> 00:53:03,450 which quite institutions have no claim to being returned. 488 00:53:06,210 --> 00:53:10,140 I mean, there is it seems to be clear privileges here. 489 00:53:12,750 --> 00:53:17,969 So I think the second point is it is interesting about whether I mean, if you insist, 490 00:53:17,970 --> 00:53:20,880 if you dissolve the state, you also dissolve your military effectiveness. 491 00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:25,650 You know, I think that's an interesting episode to make for the points about. 492 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,370 Yes. But on the other, 493 00:53:32,670 --> 00:53:45,450 I think the Russia of the Soviet case against Nazi Germany fairly clearly under our taxonomy is certainly homeland defence and also has elements 494 00:53:45,450 --> 00:53:52,440 at least a defence against genocide in the sense that there was a fairly clear expulsion and or enslavement and or genocidal policy there. 495 00:53:53,100 --> 00:54:05,280 So just the sorts of cases that are sort of become more doubtful as what is, let's say, the German war against Russian First World War, 496 00:54:06,300 --> 00:54:11,700 where the aim was this, as I was saying, the history was that expulsion or enslavement or genocide. 497 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:17,550 But what example is episode in territories to replace Czarist regime with sort of the mocking regime? 498 00:54:18,090 --> 00:54:22,799 And that's where we kind of bite the bullet right to bits like the Iraq Kuwait example. 499 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:29,850 I mean, it's been subject to kind of James point about degrees that have been subject to that. 500 00:54:29,850 --> 00:54:36,059 We kind of bite the bullet of that and say, I mean, obviously multiple proportionality type issues and so on, which we talk about. 501 00:54:36,060 --> 00:54:39,600 But at the level of what James is called deep morality, we're prepared to bite that bullet. 502 00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:47,730 Okay. Back to the list, which is Casper Victor Cheney and Laura Casper. 503 00:54:48,310 --> 00:54:52,180 I have a question regarding certain about. 504 00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:59,260 That's right. That people wanted to have this positive exchange. 505 00:55:03,350 --> 00:55:11,730 And one thing they might seem. Voluntary associations for expressive and affirming autonomy. 506 00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:19,040 The members that said an explanation they might suggest that that's in that process. 507 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:27,830 If that's the reason why states have differences in legal cosmopolitan but don't seem 508 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:35,360 to be permitted to say that other voluntary associations that express and some of the. 509 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:45,540 The members who have the political. Defensive end isn't just a business and certainly an expensive proposition. 510 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:55,830 So my question, I'm not sure I see it. It's kind of certainly an expensive conception of yourself. 511 00:55:56,240 --> 00:56:06,650 So so is my reasons. So the way you define political offensive, which is tied to. 512 00:56:09,180 --> 00:56:13,760 Resistance and scepticism based government to the territory of the nation. 513 00:56:13,770 --> 00:56:21,390 So you could simply make the analytical point that we define privilege. 514 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:28,710 You just need some kind of statement. But I take it that this is not the main point. 515 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,890 Then, of course, you've got to say that they're very best. 516 00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:42,630 See how you can have a mortgage. I put that these are unlikely to occur. 517 00:56:42,670 --> 00:56:47,550 But thinking about it, I don't see why they couldn't happen. 518 00:56:48,090 --> 00:56:50,370 Why would you leave pieces onstage? 519 00:56:50,700 --> 00:57:01,410 You shouldn't even enjoy defensive practices because then, for instance, the UN constitutes a voluntary association. 520 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:13,250 So I suppose that's fuelled slightly different as opposed to the UN intervenes in a country to engage in civil wars. 521 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,590 Why couldn't the UN have a political. 522 00:57:19,540 --> 00:57:27,630 Defence privilege if some passes and that's. Tries to destroy the U.N. as an organisation. 523 00:57:29,010 --> 00:57:39,920 Suppose that the Catholic Church go on Internet so they give up the Vatican State and then they still retain the organisation and the church. 524 00:57:39,930 --> 00:57:45,720 And then somebody tries to destroy that organisation by giving. 525 00:57:48,690 --> 00:57:56,620 That's hacking and this is just said, well, why would you choose to join the. 526 00:57:57,500 --> 00:58:02,770 Defence. So. So on. 527 00:58:02,770 --> 00:58:06,010 The analytic point was I was like, whoops, and we'll go back in. 528 00:58:06,250 --> 00:58:15,520 Whereas on the if you're in, okay, so if you're going to go that way is it's kind of fair enough. 529 00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,059 I mean, the I mean, the U.N. exam has its own sort of complexities. 530 00:58:19,060 --> 00:58:26,150 I mean, because it's I mean and the sort of uncharted these imaginary sort of military staff committee and so on. 531 00:58:26,170 --> 00:58:30,090 So I think the UN kind of raises complex points. 532 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:35,170 I think they the Catholic Church example is kind of, I guess more subtly what we had had in mind. 533 00:58:36,910 --> 00:58:45,970 This is I mean sort of so roles in particular so writes a lot about through the identity because identity of um of religious organisations but. 534 00:58:48,020 --> 00:58:52,490 It's an issue. If you accept that, that's. 535 00:58:53,690 --> 00:58:59,810 Okay. Again, Ben went to try to bring out consequences. 536 00:59:01,010 --> 00:59:04,880 Okay. I guess one person's sort of redux goes another person's bullet to bite. 537 00:59:05,780 --> 00:59:09,110 But it does, I think, focus on the Catholic Church, 538 00:59:09,470 --> 00:59:14,480 which is a long standing organisation which has in the past just kind of fought wars in self-defence, 539 00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:26,630 maybe makes the Constitution seem less extreme and mean once you focus on sort of the very wide number of smaller sort of Protestant churches, 540 00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:33,349 particularly in the US, for example, which might easily be kind of identity and autonomy affirming for their members and also has 541 00:59:33,350 --> 00:59:37,970 more likely to come into potential conflict with one another and the Catholic Church then. 542 00:59:38,420 --> 00:59:41,990 Okay. And then if you think about remains the Church of Scientology. 543 00:59:42,380 --> 00:59:49,100 And then if you go beyond religious groups to other sorts of identity affirming groups like political parties, I mean, so in a sense, 544 00:59:49,340 --> 00:59:56,659 the Nazis asserted it on Blackshirts in general, sort of assert a type of political defensive privilege through their stormtroopers or whatever. 545 00:59:56,660 --> 01:00:04,129 But I mean, leaving aside sort of the the particularly abhorrence of their political values, I mean, 546 01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:12,560 even sort of should I like is the Greens party entitled to have kind of green shirts who defended my view. 547 01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:21,110 But I think it does have following it through a kind of has implications which are kind of significant and at least to some extent counter-intuitive 548 01:00:21,290 --> 01:00:30,439 is that sort of I think putting up the Catholic Church's example minimises their ways once we look at the green shirts and so on, 549 01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,230 I think is that really the path we ought to be heading down? 550 01:00:34,670 --> 01:00:41,980 Very so is the only thing I think is a good example of that sort of thing is that, you know. 551 01:00:42,740 --> 01:00:49,520 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. Given that implication, if you're going to have yeah, yeah, yeah. 552 01:00:49,880 --> 01:01:03,160 The fact of the matter well comes when Kasper just said this point that in order to grant the political benefit to someone's interests, 553 01:01:03,350 --> 01:01:11,350 you don't have to to all the incentives. And that's the only thing you have to do to deny that this is spent. 554 01:01:11,770 --> 01:01:12,900 So at the expense of. 555 01:01:14,030 --> 01:01:24,510 It's too difficult to give some examples of instances where it doesn't seem like such a principled category of demarcation, I guess. 556 01:01:24,540 --> 01:01:27,740 Yeah. So and yeah. And again. 557 01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:39,840 Okay, Victor, one thing just to get sharpened up, I think, is the fact that an attack country has no right to defend itself against an attacker, 558 01:01:40,370 --> 01:01:47,690 doesn't imply a position on the attacker to attack the country for the reason that the when the country attacks, 559 01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:53,390 they might know that the defending country is going to nevertheless defend itself, even though it has no right to do so. 560 01:01:53,630 --> 01:01:59,930 There's going to be this big conflict, a lot of death. I think the country with just a roll over, then they would have the right to go in, 561 01:01:59,930 --> 01:02:03,830 but they don't have the right to go in because they know we're going to defend the South god of war and loss of life. 562 01:02:04,710 --> 01:02:12,860 So that's just one thing, just that we should just focus on the right to defend. That doesn't imply all of these these plausibly expensive. 563 01:02:13,250 --> 01:02:17,620 Most of us, this very reason will be most profound. So here's the puzzle. 564 01:02:19,100 --> 01:02:20,450 When we focus on the right of defence, 565 01:02:20,810 --> 01:02:32,030 how could it be that a country which has institutions which realise the autonomy of the citizens in a more effective way have. 566 01:02:33,260 --> 01:02:39,800 A reason to resist the establishment of institutions that are going to realise how many of their citizens in a better way. 567 01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:44,330 And that's just a challenge for cosmopolitans are not cosmopolitans, right? 568 01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:48,090 That's not a special challenge for cosmopolitans. But as a general challenge, 569 01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:54,740 if we're going to just impose the system is going to get you to realise your values better than the ones you have realising at the moment. 570 01:02:55,010 --> 01:03:05,450 And here are the possibilities of that challenge. One of the very value those being advanced might be set back by the imposition of the institutions. 571 01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:11,210 So one way to realise the values that we set up the institutions, when you come to set up the institutions for us, 572 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:17,840 part of the value of all that we have individually and realise not only through a set 573 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:22,040 of institutions is set back as institutions are imposed rather than us realising them. 574 01:03:22,700 --> 01:03:33,620 And here's another one that the value itself of realising personal autonomy through a political community is time dependent. 575 01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:39,710 So we are on the way to shaping ourselves as a political community will be is in a bit of a defective way. 576 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:45,979 And when you put these new institutions in place, we're going to go back to time zero in shaping all autonomy, 577 01:03:45,980 --> 01:03:48,710 which then takes time to establish themselves as a community. 578 01:03:48,980 --> 01:03:56,660 And there might be reasons to be defensive, sensible institutions where we're already realising quite a lot of value. 579 01:03:57,140 --> 01:04:04,190 Well, but setting us back to zero and then getting us to start up again because some members of our community will die out 580 01:04:04,580 --> 01:04:11,900 before they get to a position where overall they've advance their autonomy through that new set of institutions. 581 01:04:12,050 --> 01:04:16,250 Well, the better it's worse to do it for some of the for some of our citizens. 582 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:29,590 On the first one, our permissions versus privilege, which sort of intended to sort of pick that up through men for us, 583 01:04:29,770 --> 01:04:37,180 under the rubric of proportionality and necessity was sort of some of the roughly we could use it in a way that's the Jones point 584 01:04:37,450 --> 01:04:45,760 this question of whether we emphasise that enough or not to include more substantive take to me the more substantive point, 585 01:04:47,980 --> 01:04:52,540 the bit about time dependence I think is interesting. 586 01:04:52,930 --> 01:04:59,380 And also I think more men tend to take that on board and that. 587 01:05:01,590 --> 01:05:14,190 And also as a matter of methodology, it shows an attention to kind of like a sort of history or sort of psychology, 588 01:05:14,670 --> 01:05:24,989 which is slightly different in canon from the general thrust of sort of liberal cosmopolitan writing, which is a reason not to take them on board. 589 01:05:24,990 --> 01:05:33,780 But it's kind of interesting means inverted cosmopolitanism, plus a bit more sort of sociology gets us perhaps somewhere closer to common sense. 590 01:05:34,350 --> 01:05:42,840 To the first point, the book, the middle point, the first substantive points about that being a challenge for all. 591 01:05:44,220 --> 01:05:49,770 I'm not fully persuaded by that, because as you move away from a liberal cosmopolitan view, of course, 592 01:05:49,770 --> 01:05:59,159 the value that self-determination is realising is that autonomy, or at least individual autonomy, is some other sort of value of values. 593 01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:03,630 And indeed the values might be different and different in different communities. 594 01:06:04,050 --> 01:06:15,290 So I'm not just me, and I'm not sure that sort of the challenge is there for everyone to say how can we sort of justify I mean, 595 01:06:15,300 --> 01:06:20,550 how can we object to knocking down this thing in favour of other things for better, real and valuable things? 596 01:06:20,670 --> 01:06:28,650 It is a challenge to Liberals as well. So for all liberals, not just liberals, lots of other liberals do, 597 01:06:28,950 --> 01:06:33,660 but who think that liberal institutions are better at realising value than monarchists. 598 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,110 So it's not a challenge to moralities of liberalism. 599 01:06:37,110 --> 01:06:40,950 Just one view we have. I can just take it. Yeah, okay. 600 01:06:40,950 --> 01:06:48,950 That makes it okay on this. David So just on this first point about the privilege of defence, 601 01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:54,330 nothing extensive with the permissibility of attack and I think he actually phrased it in a slightly weaker form. 602 01:06:54,330 --> 01:06:57,690 I mean, it's not just about the fact that people sometimes will defend against an end of the right, 603 01:06:57,690 --> 01:07:01,920 which you kind of said you would then incorporate as your points about proportionality, necessity. 604 01:07:02,250 --> 01:07:04,440 I mean, these are analytically different concepts, right? 605 01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:11,190 I mean, know, you can fail to have defensive rights for a whole bunch of reasons that don't have to do with them, 606 01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:16,940 as this has lots of examples where, you know, defence would be impossible, but the attack is equally infinitesimal. 607 01:07:17,010 --> 01:07:23,600 You get this in provocation cases in self-defence, for example, in the case of war, if you imagine, you know, a state that has, you know, 608 01:07:23,610 --> 01:07:31,230 a regime that is enslaving its own population and that regime is then being attacked by an aggressor who controls the population as well. 609 01:07:31,260 --> 01:07:37,200 I mean, it's just clear that you can have those just analytically deficient concepts. 610 01:07:40,630 --> 01:07:48,090 I mean, the the case of enslavement. Then under our campaign, even the defence of privilege arises. 611 01:07:48,090 --> 01:07:55,830 So you get at least an overlap in there, although I'm not sure that the objective, the distinction to draw. 612 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:02,930 Okay. Jenny Ryan, I like it here. 613 01:08:03,510 --> 01:08:05,940 This is just a couple of historical comments which. 614 01:08:07,610 --> 01:08:16,010 As you please, that the United States actually did have a substantial debate over whether it could go to war without a referendum. 615 01:08:17,060 --> 01:08:18,800 This happened before World War One. 616 01:08:19,790 --> 01:08:27,230 And the issue was that some people felt that the Constitution only empowered the country to go to war in self-defence. 617 01:08:27,780 --> 01:08:31,460 And since World War One was not a war of self-defence as far as the United States was concerned, 618 01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,870 and there was by Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan, 619 01:08:36,350 --> 01:08:42,440 resigned from the administration over this issue and campaigned throughout the United States on 620 01:08:42,440 --> 01:08:47,180 the issue that it was unconstitutional to go to war without a popular referendum interstate. 621 01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:57,560 Speaker of the House of Wilson's own party agreed with this, and it only lost by ten votes to the proposal that you had to have a referendum. 622 01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,520 It was actually revived again via World War Two. 623 01:09:01,980 --> 01:09:06,620 But but. And was also gaining steam when until Pearl Harbour came along. 624 01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:08,269 So I've always had this kind of interest. 625 01:09:08,270 --> 01:09:15,560 And even in the United States, it's not been taken as obvious that you could have a war without a general a general referendum. 626 01:09:15,890 --> 01:09:22,940 That's interesting. So the second thing is, I think I would question whether the American Revolution led to a liberal state. 627 01:09:23,330 --> 01:09:25,340 It depends on what you're talking about. 628 01:09:26,150 --> 01:09:32,390 Britain, the British clearly had more liberal policies on Native Americans and the British clearly had more liberal policies on slavery. 629 01:09:32,780 --> 01:09:38,540 So the American Revolution did defend the liberal right that you couldn't be taxed without representation. 630 01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:44,270 But but it did. But I think that the general feeling, particularly from Canada, 631 01:09:44,270 --> 01:09:50,630 is that much more liberal policies would have resulted if the United States had remained a dominion. 632 01:09:54,230 --> 01:10:05,420 My whole thing is not not to be American, that this has to do with defending one's territory. 633 01:10:05,420 --> 01:10:12,110 And I mention this because I try to, you know, as much as possible, muddy what people see as clear cases. 634 01:10:12,110 --> 01:10:17,690 And I'll do it again with one of my favourite examples, which is the attack on the attack on Pearl Harbour. 635 01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:26,180 Hawaii was not a state of the United States. What happened? It was a territory that people living in United States do not have the right to vote. 636 01:10:26,540 --> 01:10:29,600 They did not have the right to participate in elections. 637 01:10:30,020 --> 01:10:38,240 And it was only 50 years after a tremendous argument that went on through two administrations about the legality of annexing Hawaii, 638 01:10:39,780 --> 01:10:45,350 that that was finally resolved because of the Spanish-American War, 639 01:10:45,770 --> 01:10:50,540 because it was felt that Hawaii was necessary, the defence of the occupation of the Philippines. 640 01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:57,770 So, so, so Hawaii was basically a front colony to defend other colonies. 641 01:10:58,340 --> 01:11:04,979 Now now whether or not we agree that the attack on the Y was an imminent threat to the existence of the United States, 642 01:11:04,980 --> 01:11:09,950 which I think is an implausible view, it seems to be a case where you have a Liberal government. 643 01:11:12,210 --> 01:11:18,930 Stealing another piece of territory. You have a fascist government attacking the stolen piece of territory. 644 01:11:19,140 --> 01:11:25,360 And then the question becomes, can the Liberal government respond to the fascist government for an attack on a stolen piece of territory? 645 01:11:26,250 --> 01:11:31,110 And that's and I would say, by the way, that strikes me as typical of a lot of the wars of the 20th century. 646 01:11:33,730 --> 01:11:42,080 So I thought of that when I was reading the first principles about defensive ones territory, because it has never been said yesterday. 647 01:11:42,090 --> 01:11:46,040 This is a kind of a muddy, muddy issue for us. 648 01:11:46,050 --> 01:11:49,740 Right? The Falklands War. Yeah. Bob were brought up. 649 01:11:49,740 --> 01:12:00,270 One of the things I certainly mean when we talk about sort of a defensive sort of sort of war, is that a purely defensive sort of territory? 650 01:12:00,270 --> 01:12:04,679 Control over populations which don't have to chance a lot of time that has carried such armies, 651 01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:12,990 have had the Falklands in mind, had so much had sort of a Pearl Harbour in mind for that that. 652 01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:22,399 The as I make the point about whether the US revolution gave us a little bit of a well taken, 653 01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:29,570 the other point of history of ignoring the details of how I knew who I was and stating the details 654 01:12:29,570 --> 01:12:33,470 of annexation to do with defending the Philippines and also on the debate about referendum. 655 01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:41,950 So thank you for those examples. Okay, so I have two points. 656 01:12:41,950 --> 01:12:48,040 And the first one goes back to the discussion of the challenge for the cosmopolitan liberal to resist 657 01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:55,240 the conclusion that a more just liberal state should intervene less just have will big institutions. 658 01:12:55,960 --> 01:13:01,870 And I think one available argumentative avenue for the cosmopolitan Liberal is to see that 659 01:13:03,340 --> 01:13:10,060 there is reasonable disagreement about which liberal state best realises liberal values. 660 01:13:10,070 --> 01:13:14,230 So if you take the idea that liberalism is about the protection of freedom and equality. 661 01:13:15,870 --> 01:13:20,500 And at least in the literature of political liberalism, not necessarily the of peoples. 662 01:13:20,740 --> 01:13:25,420 That's the idea that these ideas can be articulated in different ways and different political systems and 663 01:13:25,420 --> 01:13:30,760 that there's reasonable disagreement about which one is the more just so it would be illiberal in a way, 664 01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:37,980 to impose one particular interpretation of liberalism on another liberal state, given that we cannot determine which one is superior. 665 01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:47,500 So that's the first point. The second point has to do with the worries about liberal imperialism and that you put forward in a paper, 666 01:13:47,950 --> 01:13:56,590 I think on page 14 of the paper, you commit these worries to the particular composition of existing liberal state. 667 01:13:56,710 --> 01:14:00,580 You mentioned Europe and North America as examples. 668 01:14:01,270 --> 01:14:07,810 And what worried me a little bit about this sort of reference, the real world, 669 01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:16,720 is that real world liberal states very different from the kind of idealised liberal states that we find in France and little people. 670 01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:23,500 And it might be that from this ability of intervention, not only depends on considerations to do with proportionality, 671 01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:29,590 likelihood of success, but also on the moral position of the particular states that would intervene. 672 01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:33,519 And if you agree with, you don't even need to agree with the target. 673 01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,940 Actually, that. Western states. 674 01:14:37,450 --> 01:14:40,959 If Western liberal states are somehow complicit in some international wrongs, 675 01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,530 even from the perspective of the little people, peoples, they would count as culpable. 676 01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:49,750 And there's an extra question as to whether they have the moral authority to intervene, even if the intervention of. 677 01:14:51,020 --> 01:14:55,790 Uh oh. Well. Okay. 678 01:14:56,380 --> 01:15:00,680 Um, on the first point, uh. 679 01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:07,920 Okay. So help yourself the analytical distinction between commissions and defensive privileges. 680 01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:18,030 The point about the rate of disagreement. Might show that a given liberal state doesn't have a mission. 681 01:15:18,270 --> 01:15:27,730 Oh, it's not a liberal state. I'm not sure, though, how far it goes in if the intervention then takes place. 682 01:15:27,740 --> 01:15:37,540 I'm not sure that it establishes the permissibility of defence, the right to defend in the sense of what values will be upheld, 683 01:15:37,540 --> 01:15:42,190 that defence that would justify the tremendous suffering that would follow. 684 01:15:42,730 --> 01:15:51,910 Given that, I would say that in a sense there's no we can't say of the new form of liberation that would be 685 01:15:51,910 --> 01:15:58,420 imposed if there was the resistance is worse than what was there in the sense that the kind of 686 01:15:58,630 --> 01:16:05,860 reasoned disagreement that what cuts both ways so that so on the first point on the second point 687 01:16:08,140 --> 01:16:16,030 I agree and actually said something similar in some comments in the paper when I said it to him. 688 01:16:16,870 --> 01:16:22,810 And we do sort of cross over frequent ideal and not ideal theory in a somewhat casual way. 689 01:16:23,260 --> 01:16:26,710 And our sense except that criticism. 690 01:16:28,790 --> 01:16:35,220 No, I'm not sure this is a defence, but I mean, sort of say rules in law peoples does the same, you mean for example. 691 01:16:35,260 --> 01:16:40,610 And so I tried to get up trying to get up some passages, for example, 692 01:16:40,610 --> 01:16:44,740 where he suggests that the US isn't really a liberal state at all because he took his intervention in Central South America. 693 01:16:45,100 --> 01:16:50,230 But also he appeals to the US as an example of improved democratic peace, which is meant to be moving under your theory. 694 01:16:50,340 --> 01:16:57,160 So there's and but you can kind of see how he falls into the problem, because if you completely disregard reality, what's the point of any of it? 695 01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:03,790 So you're always looking in a sense, to try to sort of cash it out and try to get sort of something that looks within the neighbourhood. 696 01:17:04,010 --> 01:17:10,850 And again, again, even a yes or no almost entirely agreed is sort of a methodological issue there, 697 01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:20,350 which would try to be tighter that that our aim in being tight would not be to so tight as to kind of lose any reality. 698 01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:30,190 Okay. Going to have a question from Graham Long and and that'll be it. 699 01:17:31,660 --> 01:17:35,290 Oh, have you had. I didn't have a hand up before. Oh, okay. 700 01:17:35,410 --> 01:17:38,770 All right. There's a little time. Good. Okay. Graham then. 701 01:17:38,770 --> 01:17:43,010 Chris. So I had a question was I want to just briefly on this idea of people showing. 702 01:17:43,740 --> 01:17:53,790 And that is that well, the world in light of this is if you impose something on somebody where they recently rejected that in itself is unreasonable. 703 01:17:54,510 --> 01:17:58,840 So that would be a reason to resist the imposition of even a better, you know. 704 01:18:00,930 --> 01:18:07,489 If somebody else thinks you superior because that you can have no claim when you've young your view of experience when they post on you, 705 01:18:07,490 --> 01:18:09,530 they seem to be reasonable at all times. 706 01:18:09,780 --> 01:18:21,590 And my question, I was thinking about this idea of the connection between the privilege of the physical expense and the possibility of war. 707 01:18:22,930 --> 01:18:28,480 I wonder if you might be able to connect the two? I think I think because my definition of love is being cautious. 708 01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:33,100 If you just talk about there being a low threshold for admissible invasion, 709 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:43,060 so you might get into the notion of just cause you might have a you might be speaking a stronger version in the weak motion might say that where you. 710 01:18:44,740 --> 01:18:48,790 But it might be that intrinsic to notion just causes the idea that we want 711 01:18:48,790 --> 01:18:52,930 just goes to specify a situation we wouldn't want somebody by invading them. 712 01:18:53,800 --> 01:19:03,310 But it might be that this lack of privilege is going to be bad for citizens or whatever grounds the notion that we lose out. 713 01:19:03,460 --> 01:19:07,600 But political events would also ground the idea that we don't want these people coming back. 714 01:19:09,340 --> 01:19:15,830 But if you want to go further than that and say that lack of normal speculation because it just calls for war, 715 01:19:15,860 --> 01:19:22,450 that looks a bit suspect, I'm going to do my best. My first thought is it might be circumstances where the stakes are very well 716 01:19:22,450 --> 01:19:26,319 organised or is it going to be news that hasn't got itself off the ground? 717 01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:29,230 But if you like the lack of military space, this isn't just nobody's fault. 718 01:19:29,650 --> 01:19:34,420 But if you stick with make another claim about stakes that she loses that block, you know what, 719 01:19:34,420 --> 01:19:39,370 resistance movement towards the myth of integration, then that might not be implausibly strong. 720 01:19:40,060 --> 01:19:45,340 They just go through and if it's just goes to war up to that might come into place as well. 721 01:19:45,580 --> 01:19:49,210 That might be one way to connect this permissibility question. 722 01:19:53,090 --> 01:19:58,840 Some. So. 723 01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:07,040 So I think obviously it's becoming clear that the issue of sort of a permissibility 724 01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:12,800 versus privilege needs to be articulated more clearly in either of the. 725 01:20:16,890 --> 01:20:32,140 In the case. And I mean, you know, and our focus obviously is sort of a primarily on the defensive privilege, which means that you rather than. 726 01:20:40,110 --> 01:20:46,980 Rather. And that's why we want to make the focus, which means instead of the instance, that's a particular priority rather than permissibility. 727 01:20:47,430 --> 01:20:53,459 But we also do pose the question. 728 01:20:53,460 --> 01:20:56,910 We sort of pose a rhetorically and rhetorical question. Is it an argument? 729 01:20:57,830 --> 01:21:04,680 It's a question. An argument. But we say instead of circumstances, what reason would a liberal cosmopolitan have? 730 01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,950 Some principle reason have not to regard it intervention as permissible, 731 01:21:07,950 --> 01:21:13,710 and obviously that the issues of abortion sort of give away under a fairly broad rubric proportionality. 732 01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:21,360 Clearly a relevant set of reasons. But in your case, of a state which is sort of fledgling and only getting off the ground, 733 01:21:22,530 --> 01:21:30,450 suppose that you're fairly confident that by that trickle there won't be any resistance. 734 01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:36,180 You from that there are even the means of resistance. I mean, the military that have entitlements, like you said, everything else. 735 01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:40,470 What reason does a liberal, cosmopolitan, 736 01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:52,050 cosmopolitan have available to articulate why not to go in and impose robust liberal administrative sort of organisation? 737 01:21:52,530 --> 01:22:03,620 And the answer is these people's individual autonomy in our thought is, well, our liberal regimes who can realise and indeed foster in a way that, 738 01:22:03,940 --> 01:22:09,090 that the non-legal things that they want, if it's collective to the political agency, 739 01:22:09,570 --> 01:22:14,460 will have that if that's appealing to a value which the liberals of the have available to. 740 01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:19,530 So I mean that's sort of the the pattern of thought we're trying to develop. 741 01:22:19,530 --> 01:22:29,100 And I know I don't feel that the fledgling government puts out a particularly sort of special case. 742 01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:36,600 I mean, it's you know, it's just in five years time, it's pretty clear that has gone from fledgling to robust. 743 01:22:37,530 --> 01:22:42,030 And I know a couple of thousand people are going to die in the intervention. 744 01:22:42,030 --> 01:22:46,920 In the meantime, I therefore, you've got to kind of get a clear reason not to intervene, namely those deaths. 745 01:22:47,490 --> 01:22:51,300 But it is going to be bloodless, extremely close to bloodless. 746 01:22:51,570 --> 01:22:56,880 And the prospects of moving from fledgling to robust are a bit more wishful. 747 01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:03,420 But that's the lesson that I can say that you and I saw from this letters. 748 01:23:03,450 --> 01:23:10,350 I mean, I have a vague worry that it might be a bit paradoxical to try to impose just the institutions of the state. 749 01:23:12,090 --> 01:23:14,219 And that sounds counterintuitive. 750 01:23:14,220 --> 01:23:19,230 Doesn't that mean hopefully people economies that they get to decide for themselves in their own way how the institutions move out, 751 01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:23,159 that they believe in autonomy? 752 01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:27,389 Then there's good reason that hesitation should be about simply imposing a thank you fund. 753 01:23:27,390 --> 01:23:29,469 If everything in it, if you see things going downhill. 754 01:23:29,470 --> 01:23:35,720 And this is where the fledgling government potential in the case of simply being most hopeful for but it's not going off the ground. 755 01:23:36,090 --> 01:23:42,510 If were just then they might intervene in ways should have to be military they can intervene to kind of support fiscal Koukoulas advisers, 756 01:23:42,510 --> 01:23:45,149 these kinds of things. So we're talking about military intervention. 757 01:23:45,150 --> 01:23:50,490 I think I want to see that there really wasn't any sympathy which was stopping this from happening. 758 01:23:50,490 --> 01:23:55,319 I think just takes a wild and uncomfortable fact, does have a reason to just let it take a while. 759 01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,600 If if it's an expression of influence on me, that's that's fine. 760 01:23:58,980 --> 01:24:03,630 But I guess in the example of this, I in the course of taking a while, if it's not liberal, yes. 761 01:24:03,690 --> 01:24:09,989 Other people's autonomy has been thwarted in the meantime. I mean, for example, no National Health Service has been set up. 762 01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:17,430 Right. And so we can say that people dying or not from education system being set up, we can see that some people as high, particularly girls, 763 01:24:17,430 --> 01:24:25,950 aren't being educated or I mean it is it's a fledgling isn't merely did a quite brilliant I mean I mean fledgling means 764 01:24:25,950 --> 01:24:31,620 fledgling right and that means that's going on which presumably you live because of all of its links to the stuff. 765 01:24:32,310 --> 01:24:35,580 So is there like a vacuum in then. 766 01:24:35,580 --> 01:24:42,719 It's good, it's right, it's bad and it's good. So I guess that's sort of thought that's the that's the conception. 767 01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:49,290 I guess it's driving our thoughts. Chris So this is a very simpleminded question. 768 01:24:49,890 --> 01:24:55,080 Jack already mentioned the the the sort of factual significance of the fact people will 769 01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:58,820 resist by having their own sons of [INAUDIBLE] replaced by somebody else's interest. 770 01:24:59,130 --> 01:25:05,550 That's one thing about the normative significance of that interest in purely crude welfare terms, 771 01:25:05,580 --> 01:25:09,000 loss aversion is one of the strongest psychological dispositions that we have. 772 01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:12,209 We like keeping our stuff. We don't want somebody else to swap our kids. 773 01:25:12,210 --> 01:25:17,280 Swapper. Swapper. Yeah. Even for another brain animal. 774 01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:29,460 Yeah. And that, that, that welfare effect of somebody taking our institutions is profound. 775 01:25:29,580 --> 01:25:32,309 I mean, I was thinking to the last question, 776 01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:38,830 I was thinking of the ban on food on the ground interventions in the CIA's interventions in Western European policy to. 777 01:25:38,950 --> 01:25:42,279 The more that you know that the government supporting of I guess the Christian Democrats 778 01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:46,440 and most Western Europe and that sort of intervention to create liberal states, 779 01:25:46,450 --> 01:25:53,140 arguably an improvement over over what, you know, internal communist regimes would have done. 780 01:25:53,470 --> 01:26:00,549 And yet there was something profoundly, normatively offensive, not just because of the interference with the broader path of self-determination, 781 01:26:00,550 --> 01:26:06,040 simply the fact that people's own institutions are being replaced or subverted. 782 01:26:06,790 --> 01:26:14,030 Mean, how do you account for that? You know, it's so that sort of basic welfare significance that people don't like having their own stuff replaced. 783 01:26:24,910 --> 01:26:31,690 Oh, no. In fact, you're getting an argument that from individual inviolability for Starting Point. 784 01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:35,240 One of the things that's gonna be inviolable is you'll understand. 785 01:26:35,440 --> 01:26:53,509 People don't like it. I guess you then it's well, fair trade offs and that's probably going to depend on sort of factual circumstances. 786 01:26:53,510 --> 01:27:00,320 But I think if I mean, people don't like having institutions taken away and so they've got an interest in keeping theirs and that 787 01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:07,700 pushes sort of the Liberal in favour of not inordinately favour of not intervening militarily on the river. 788 01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:11,120 But equally people have an interest in being educated, 789 01:27:11,630 --> 01:27:18,470 people have an interest in enjoying non-discrimination institutions, people have an interest in health. 790 01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:26,330 I mean, there's a whole lot of kind of the countervailing interests with potentially countervailing interests as well. 791 01:27:27,470 --> 01:27:34,620 So. What's going to depend obviously on fact to the factual details. 792 01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:43,180 But I guess sort of my feeling is that that move isn't going to. 793 01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:52,129 He's in has got to give you all that fine respect of a wide range of fairly unhappy institutions for the legal point of view, 794 01:27:52,130 --> 01:27:56,580 fairly and happy institutional orders. But maybe I'm wrong. 795 01:27:56,600 --> 01:28:00,400 I mean, I've got the intuitive weighting of the loss of version balances. 796 01:28:00,440 --> 01:28:05,210 These other institution, particularly for the Liberal, are perhaps going to deepen interests. 797 01:28:05,420 --> 01:28:12,870 And maybe my intuition is wrong. I mean, I was thinking the more in terms of the defensive privilege that I might I'm I 798 01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:16,999 will be inclined to protect against the future prospect of a better education, 799 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:24,379 a better regimes, and that if liberalism is committed to protecting my welfare, as well as these more symbolic values. 800 01:28:24,380 --> 01:28:30,830 And so I will expect my state to mean welfare as well. 801 01:28:33,780 --> 01:28:37,360 Has been, I think, even been sort of beside him. 802 01:28:37,590 --> 01:28:42,149 I mean, it's sort of I think it's kind of Kim looking sort of the exercise of innocence, 803 01:28:42,150 --> 01:28:45,310 the significance of having institutional ownership and how they operate, meaning and so on. 804 01:28:45,780 --> 01:28:52,410 But even he's pretty holds a pretty hard line on to what extent are non, 805 01:28:52,830 --> 01:28:58,229 non-verbally or non autonomy fostering cultural institutions that are valuable and hopefully protected. 806 01:28:58,230 --> 01:29:03,780 And he's kind of pretty sceptical there know and I think it's a kind of what if a human's good 807 01:29:03,780 --> 01:29:14,969 internal reasons so I mean if you so you have to sort of think like more and more about cases I guess 808 01:29:14,970 --> 01:29:20,520 more about different I mean this he is is somewhat crude a generic sketch of liberalism is perhaps 809 01:29:21,780 --> 01:29:27,929 crossing that moving quickly over what is sort of quite significant possible in terms of him. 810 01:29:27,930 --> 01:29:34,770 And before that too you're sort of you're sort of line to get up a robust political 811 01:29:34,770 --> 01:29:38,430 debate of privilege in a range of sort of fairly clearly liberal states. 812 01:29:39,270 --> 01:29:47,640 Is these is moving quite away from the picture that we see, I think sort of in in in poverty in him, whether it's in Dworkin and so on. 813 01:29:48,180 --> 01:29:53,399 So and so. Okay, but nothing more. 814 01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:58,379 You sort of say on that, but it's like, okay, coffee break is sacred. 815 01:29:58,380 --> 01:30:02,010 So one last snapping just in response to that. 816 01:30:02,110 --> 01:30:11,069 I do want to jump in your point. But so if the point is, you know, people will suffer a lot if they realise that they have been chosen. 817 01:30:11,070 --> 01:30:21,600 These are better than when we talk about the covert sort of infiltration or affecting people's choices in a sort of covert way, 818 01:30:21,870 --> 01:30:27,570 but what it effectively. So that doesn't mean all of you in full, the CIA intervening in elections. 819 01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:33,400 Right. Because people think if people feel like they've chosen, then it's not going to affect their welfare in the way you talking about it, 820 01:30:33,420 --> 01:30:42,950 I think occurred to me as I do in those cases, what I think I mean, I think it remains a contested point. 821 01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:50,580 But an open question to the extent to which the CIA played a role in was visible the Whitlam government in Australia in 1975 and I mean covert. 822 01:30:50,580 --> 01:30:58,979 He doesn't mean like Nixon, like literally unknown, right. I mean those who are worried about that, I mean, but there's evidence around and so on. 823 01:30:58,980 --> 01:31:02,310 So successful. Okay. Yeah, right. 824 01:31:03,630 --> 01:31:09,330 Well, we will take out a general evaluation of CIA, but let's take James and.