1
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It's a delight to be here for the second year of the Oxford War Group.

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We have to find a way of continuing to do this because it's such an exciting group to bring together.

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I'm not going to take very much time for introductions. I'm going to try to keep the same rules and conventions going.

4
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So to give Gérard a no more than 5 minutes, sort of 3 to 5 minutes to introduce the paper, because we've all read it.

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And then I will give Nancy Sherman the opportunity to be the lead respondent for around 12 to 15 minutes.

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The only thing I want to say is, as someone who works on the responsibility to protect from a slightly more applied perspective,

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I found this a fascinating application of what we call in politics our two.

8
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So I will I will take us to no more than 1:10, because otherwise it will encroach on lunch.

9
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So which of which, unfortunately, in Oxford goes for only a set period of time.

10
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So you will starve if we don't end it. US what? We.

11
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Gerhart, go. Thank you. So, yeah, so Vincent asked me about.

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Writing a paper for the conference. I was very quickly thinking about poverty and I was thinking about how to do that in the military context.

13
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I mean, it seems a little bit difficult to find. Profitable ways that before you go to war?

14
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I think that. And so I thought maybe we can use innovation growth to promote growth.

15
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So yeah, so this situation is. But it's global poverty according to.

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For Thursday's crowd, approximately 35,000 children are reportedly ready for each day.

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That is pretty amazing. So then the purpose kicks off with a visit from Office Space, where Castle meets Angel.

18
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And it's been said about the situation of the global poverty on Earth and here on Earth.

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He could, because he actually is a protector with our humanitarian interventions.

20
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So the Democrats should try to ask him to intervene on behalf of the global threat.

21
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And then I think, ah, I mean there are three types of costs that we have to consider.

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Course with the material costs to the actual people that will come after the intervention is over.

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I have to what extent, if I have a duty to carry these costs, to build these costs,

24
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which will be either by just new development aid or institutional changes that will be developed,

25
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but how much cost that will be could be difficult to estimate.

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I proposed that something like 5 to 10% could be recouped on that record.

27
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And then I investigate to what extent that cost would be something that we have a duty to bear.

28
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And then, of course, it's important to see to what extent the uplift are related to the poverty.

29
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And I suggest that there might be three ways in which these issues that might be related to global poverty.

30
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Two types of attribution. One is are really related and the other one by enabling it by.

31
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And then of course they might have failed to prevent all three might be more or less culpable and all of them will.

32
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All of them are sensitive to culpability in a way that the high culpability, the work of holding forth on the Afghan people,

33
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if the importantly contribute or preferred they are less they are less confident in both of them.

34
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So that's one type, of course.

35
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And then, of course, the indirect cost of intervention that would include death of soldiers and death of civilians are collateral damage here,

36
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assuming that the civilians will not be targeted.

37
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I mean, you could imagine that actually what they did was to target civilians in order to get to force people to start changing their behaviour.

38
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So that would be more like a terrorist type of use of force and I don't see anything theoretically problematic with that.

39
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But I'm just not addressing it here. So I do have it in another paper, but not here.

40
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So in this paper I'm basically interested in the killing of civilians, the side effects that means that,

41
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it could seem, is more easy for people to understand that killing people.

42
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And then, of course, the soldiers who would be killed.

43
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I mean, it's difficult to say and it's very difficult to imagine to what extent or how people on earth would react to something like this.

44
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I've asked quite a few people and quite a few people seem to support this intervention, surprising it.

45
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But obviously to what extent is permissible to launch this intervention with a high number of soldiers?

46
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As. We still will also depend on to what extent we could say that the soldiers are fighting a just and unjust war.

47
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And to what extent, if they are fighting in a just war, which I assume they are,

48
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if it is justified to have this humanitarian intervention to of extent, they can flow through the rebel fighters with an excuse.

49
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But so to what extent is it gospel the soldiers of African countries that then.

50
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The current situation where 35,000 children die of poverty is huge.

51
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To what extent can they have a comfortable story to tell that will give them a good excuse for trying to prevent this intervention?

52
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Okay. I guess my 5 minutes is up. Yeah. Yeah.

53
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If you can wrap up one thought there wrapped up.

54
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Great. So I will. That's a fairly succinct summary.

55
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Sure. Nancy. Oh, excuse me. I'm happy to give some comments.

56
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Well, the layout of the paper, it's just been been summarised.

57
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And I did find it fascinating. But I guess I want to look at a little bit more what sort of intervention these angelic

58
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protectors might have in mind and how it might look from the eyes of a soldier.

59
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So I want to make a little bit flesh here, if you will, the mixed metaphor warrior angels, nobles, psyche.

60
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So we've got a military engagement, and I'm presuming it's primarily lethal force for protectors or warriors,

61
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but I'm not actually sure how it's supposed to work. And I may have misinterpreted some of what I read as I'm listening to your comments.

62
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But in general, you're talking about soldiers taking out soldiers or military installations,

63
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I guess, with some amount of permissible collateral damage yet. And that's the second part of the paper.

64
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But in the earlier discussion, what you've been talking about primarily is what the harms ordinary civilians produce in creating and contributing,

65
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enabling poverty and how they might be, in fact substantively responsible for it.

66
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So I was I was thinking of an attack on them in some way.

67
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And so presumably they're not on a battlefield or working in a military installation,

68
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but in their homes as enablers, contributors through various policies.

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And I had a specific example. It was sort of in my mind from talking to someone recently.

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And so just sort of imagine this more heinous version of a recent Similac scare.

71
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So Abbott factories in Sturgis, Michigan and it produces baby formula.

72
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And in order to be profitable,

73
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they've cut corners on hygiene with the result that they have cans in plastic containers of baby formula in which are beetle parts.

74
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It's true. And beetle larva that are not too palatable are easily taken by young stomachs.

75
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Now, so the cans are all recalled in America,

76
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but they go on to be shipped to Angola so that the company won't lose massive sales and still remain profitable.

77
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There's some in the factory that know what's up.

78
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Most of upper management presumably does know,

79
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but they're keeping quiet and many don't want to make trouble because Michigan's in tough economic times and they don't want to lose their own jobs.

80
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So Kaiser gets the green light to militarily intervene.

81
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It's sort of how I'm thinking of or Kaiser gives angel military the green light.

82
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And so in what sense is the factory a legitimate target?

83
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Who indeed is targeted? When they're targeted, when do they have the right to resort to defensive force?

84
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To what degree is collateral damage minimised in soldiers assumed.

85
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Angel angels seem to take on the preponderance of harm or risk.

86
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And the examples are sketchy, but I just don't know.

87
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Again, I'm I'm very concerned about what the epistemic bar is for knowing who to target or not.

88
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And you share the view that they're just an unjust combatants and also a non categorical combatant non-combatants distinction.

89
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So there are more or less innocent non-combatants or civilians.

90
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And you say that collateral damage already erodes non-combatant immunities, so good reasons to weaken it further.

91
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You argue that I'm one of those people, you know,

92
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who worry a lot about the epistemic burden on soldiers and even angels who may have night goggles, vision that allows them to discriminate.

93
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I don't think they had it, but whether they did, but I don't think they do.

94
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You cannot discriminate between bad soldiers and good service, between war or between contributing and enabling civilians and those that aren't.

95
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So, you know, battle's begun. And how do soldiers acquire the information needed to establish?

96
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Degrees of moral responsibility for those involved if they target certain floors of the plant.

97
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Some are upper management who might know. Not clear that the upper management is actually going to be there.

98
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So it's that kind of worry that I have,

99
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because I actually did take you at face value as suggesting that the contributors and enablers of the affluent like Kaisers of this world are or,

100
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you know, where she works are amongst those to be targeted.

101
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Then again, I was thinking, well,

102
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maybe some of the there are guards there security guards that are hired because similar knows its contributions in this

103
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area that it's producing harmful stuff and are the guards who are armed but the civilians who work in the plant not armed.

104
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More likely, you know more liable to to attack than not.

105
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So the paper raise those kinds of questions for me, precisely how I target and how, you know, targeted.

106
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Those are or practitioners the soldiers, you know, these morally relevant role differences in attitude.

107
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So I don't write in these specific terms. And my own approach has been to talk to soldiers who have had to make tough

108
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choices and often who second guess those choices once the choice has been made.

109
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And for them, war is unbearably personal.

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And it's not just the what, but it's not just what they do.

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But the aftermath is long and and lasts long.

112
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And to take moral responsibility for accidental deaths of buddies and non-combatants,

113
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to feel guilt for surviving, to feel guilt for collateral damages is in part the way that they humanise war.

114
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And I thought, I don't know how visitors from outer space take on those kinds of issues or how we put them into the proportionality calculus.

115
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In thinking about the long term harms that soldiers take on.

116
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So that's something I want to put on the table. The other thing I wasn't clear about is is your inter on this was assuming your intervention is

117
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in a highly commingled place and even takes on contributing harming non-combatants as targets.

118
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And so in what sense are we talking about a policing kind of intervention as opposed to a more typical

119
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war fighting intervention where more risk to civilians rather than less risk is is permissible?

120
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That's a question I, I put out to you. And I guess in general,

121
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I think anyone like Angels troops need to be far better prepared than I think our troops currently are to

122
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be able to restrain lethal force and to try to make certain kinds of combat non-combatant distinctions.

123
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But it wasn't clear to me if you were taking on those problems.

124
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So I want to essentially throw that out,

125
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especially given we're you're talking about war amongst the people or the people being responsible for the harming.

126
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In what sense are they essentially as liable to attack us for that as civilians, as liable to attack us as armed combatants or something?

127
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But that's the nature of the current.

128
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I mean, I don't I'm not thinking that the protesters have any superhuman ability to find out who's culpable, anything like that.

129
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We are not trying to they are just a little bit better of meet us on this.

130
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And and what I'm thinking of is that they want to change the institutional setup, right?

131
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So that in order to do that, they will have to force governments to do it.

132
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I mean, exactly how this intervention is supposed to do to avert this.

133
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First of all, I'm not a military expert. I'm not sure how to do those things, but I can't really say much about how actually they are going to do it.

134
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And of course, but I do say, for example, that we have an exit strategy.

135
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Right? I mean I mean, obviously, if if.

136
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Earthlings. We are not backing down there, so they are just not giving in now.

137
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Just continuing to fight like the Taliban. Right. It's not the troops that start doing like that.

138
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Of course, this will not work.

139
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You will not end global poverty by this war so as to not have the impression that that is what's happening, because then they will not go.

140
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So they're also not like earthlings in that regard. So earthlings.

141
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Governments. Yes, sir. So they let us live.

142
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And maybe they will return in ten years to see if we have made any progress.

143
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But are they also, you know, armed economic reformers like, you know, as well as armed social workers, that sort of thing?

144
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Are they not only, you know, break the system, but also rebuild it?

145
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You know, they are basically people like so and so.

146
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The way in which we are supposed to do this, we have to find out. It seems to be I am not an expert,

147
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but there seems to be some people around on earth with have ideas about how we should do this in order to solve this problem overall.

148
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Obviously disputes but and it might not be as cheap as the example towards Georgia indicates that he thinks it is might be cost like 10% but.

149
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So the idea is that these are just instruments and to what extent this is permissible, that is not the case at all.

150
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You have to decide. It is not something they have to find out because they have some superior power.

151
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So whether or not it is permissible is simply something we have to find out some something

152
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about trying to give a first draft of this and did regard to this initial this in.

153
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No. This is what I got is the fact that the baby faced over there.

154
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I mean so I mean, if I was just trying to think of a, you know, a non fact a non munitions factory.

155
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Yeah. But the place where there was ongoing, systemic and not just this particular incident,

156
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long term contribution to malnutrition and poverty in a particular area with some complicity,

157
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some non complicity and some uniform, some non-uniformed people and etc.

158
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Yeah. So I mean, I mean, in order to see how bad this production is, I don't know.

159
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I mean, how bad is actually the product? How many people get cancer from things like that?

160
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So it might be that although all over it might could be even though it actually gives a few people cancer,

161
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it is better that they get that they're not getting it could be that at all.

162
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So if that is the case, then of course it is problematic to say that they are liable because even though Americans don't need it,

163
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because they have all the products, but maybe those people who are using this product don't I don't know.

164
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But and I'm not really interested here in to what extent it is permissible to kill ordinary, affluent people.

165
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That is just because I bracket in this paper.

166
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But it could be that actually that is more efficient than trying to have a.

167
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Military intervention in order to force governments to start to change their behaviour.

168
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It could be it could be that it would be better and more efficient that the protect they start doing

169
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that or we just will continue to kill them or three people at random every day until they do it.

170
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So that could be more efficient action. But these are not all talking about military use of military force.

171
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I wouldn't talk about terrorists. So that basically can should have lots of hands.

172
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I'm afraid I don't know you all as well as David did. So I will I will start taking a list.

173
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And I'll start with you, Nina. Yeah, you did. As you know, he was actually first as you asked people to say yes.

174
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When you start, do you say your name? So you Nina, I'm getting a little upset.

175
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It's actually a minor question, but I overall,

176
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I find that the main problem that I have with the paper is this attempt to analogise what is a redistributive war to a humanitarian intervention.

177
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And I'm quoting from the analogy, just focus on one here.

178
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Essentially, you try to hold on to the conditions than the Nazis.

179
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And I wonder how you think the fact that it is a last resort,

180
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and I wonder how you want everyone to achieve that in a context where first, it is not about seizing actually the interdiction of body.

181
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I think it's about something much more structural. That is the distribution of resources.

182
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And the other the fact that you are not actually talking about a state related problem,

183
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which both come from the fact that you base your argument on the analogy of a classical humanitarian intervention,

184
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because what you're actually suggesting is that the intervention here is meant to coerce the agent that might have the ability to

185
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change the situation of the unfair distribution rather than the intervention or the agent from intervening to help those in need.

186
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And that's what the classical is. If we intervene into a state in order to help the people in the state.

187
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And I think the government came into this promising that we are not actually intervening immediately to coerce the government,

188
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to change its acting, to change structural issues.

189
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So how do you ever make the argument that that there aren't any other possibilities of changing the structure, like the redistribution of resources?

190
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And how do you. Well how do you reason that's not in the context of the state that.

191
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You never achieve such a thing as nothing. Okay.

192
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Thank you. So the two things, certainly the last resort and the only thing that is a requirement of intervention in that it

193
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is that the suffering is caused by the state that was taken by the order to be the one resort,

194
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last resort. I mean, obviously, to some extent, this is believed to be the last resort in the sense that.

195
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I mean, it is possible probably to solve this problem or at least significantly reduce poverty related death, but without any intervention.

196
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That is what the bodies are going to look like. So the point is that they are dying today.

197
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,380
So how long should wait to learn of this?

198
00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:16,920
I mean, probably this will be solved. Yes, I think so.

199
00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:23,430
So but in the meantime, 900 million people or something had died.

200
00:24:24,090 --> 00:24:27,210
So they could just presumably just intervene and feed them.

201
00:24:27,550 --> 00:24:30,590
Right. No. Okay. Okay. No, they don't have them.

202
00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:39,070
So so this is the battlefield analogy of humanity to go to intervene to do that.

203
00:24:39,140 --> 00:24:58,590
Right. So that three things. So. Either the suffering is caused by state or it's a state that for some reason failed to prevent this.

204
00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:07,160
But so of course in this case it will be something similar to the state that it to prevent it.

205
00:25:08,060 --> 00:25:16,790
I do know that most people, when they talk about humanitarian intervention, want to kind of reduce it when the suffering is caused by a state.

206
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,850
But I don't think that is necessary in order to justify humanitarian intervention toward the end of the state,

207
00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:28,760
even though the state just don't care about certain groups of aggressively starving,

208
00:25:31,370 --> 00:25:42,590
just they don't care preventing it, then I think humanitarian intervention could be justified in order to force the state to do something about this.

209
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:57,250
All right. So I don't see I don't think that is a serious problem for the analogy between humanitarian intervention or other distinctive.

210
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,460
Shlomi had a one finger on this. Yes, I know.

211
00:26:08,270 --> 00:26:10,420
I guess my worry is that your extension?

212
00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:16,790
You're saying that even if the state fails to prevent, because when we talk about I guess you have two problems with this analysis.

213
00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:20,899
First, I do think there is a huge difference because even if you might say that there might be

214
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:26,810
more responsibility on all states around the world in really trying to prevent the harm,

215
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:36,320
yet I'm not sure that this is the kind of moral responsibility which passes some sort of a threshold which justified a third state to intervene.

216
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,109
I mean, and in a way,

217
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:51,139
I don't see what why why is the third state or Nate or some kind of international organisation has any vector of claim act against the

218
00:26:51,140 --> 00:26:59,300
state who is just preventing from the humanitarian crisis to happening somewhere else as opposed to a state that is causing that.

219
00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:09,830
Right. So I think there is a difference if I if the state the state aid does not intervene, she seems state to be struggling, suffering.

220
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:15,559
The people there are dying and they're not intervening and becoming a case where the state see is the one that is

221
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:21,020
responsible for the death because it stopped all the water getting into state to be where the people are dying as a result.

222
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:33,889
I think there is a huge moral difference in how humanitarian in the in late or the UN or maybe state the intervening in such crisis.

223
00:27:33,890 --> 00:27:43,130
I do not think that just avoiding to in preventing or not interfering with humanitarian aid would be sufficient,

224
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:49,430
a sufficient reason for humanitarian interests, for force, for humanitarian situation.

225
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:57,470
So you have to keep this I have to say this in one society, this say these people are dying, okay?

226
00:27:57,590 --> 00:28:02,780
People are dying because there is no water in their society which is not connected.

227
00:28:02,780 --> 00:28:09,060
They are not in control of the sources of the water. They have enough water, but they're not giving from their water to society.

228
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,760
They see their neighbours are dying and they're not doing anything. They are not preventing the humanitarian.

229
00:28:14,210 --> 00:28:18,170
It is a humanitarian crisis, but they're not responsible for it.

230
00:28:19,130 --> 00:28:28,820
Or you say it doesn't matter. I mean, in any case, the angel and the protectors can intervene, or in real life Natal or the UN can intervene.

231
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:38,870
So I understood this like this. I think in all situation you have suffering over here and have the state have and they just don't care.

232
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,160
They do not so effective preventive in this case you are suffering.

233
00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:48,200
You understand, does it? Yes. So you think it's a huge difference?

234
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:51,920
Of course. Yeah, I can agree others so difference.

235
00:28:53,270 --> 00:28:59,959
But if to what extent with these people I mean, these people have a Spanish, right.

236
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:06,440
So in this case it would depend on what is this people's reaction to intervention.

237
00:29:08,450 --> 00:29:13,700
So if if these people say that that no to whatever please come and help us.

238
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:19,610
It is of course you shouldn't intervene military because there's no need for it. No, but the people just don't care.

239
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:23,389
They're very going to stick it. Say we just care about ourselves.

240
00:29:23,390 --> 00:29:31,070
We don't care about anyone else. So even if you told me I don't want to spend my resources on your country, I have more than enough water.

241
00:29:31,070 --> 00:29:35,420
But, you know, it will cost me money to pass the water tanks in your state.

242
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:39,800
I can't be bothered. What happens to you? I don't. I'm not going to fight you.

243
00:29:39,980 --> 00:29:44,300
I'm not causing this. But I have nothing to do with you. I don't understand.

244
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,420
Why does this state have a claim against intervention here and now?

245
00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:52,810
They have. You said that if we want to intervene.

246
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:57,800
Okay. So the assumption here is that these states could have prevented this.

247
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,450
They could prevent. But they are not the cause for this now. Yeah, they could prevent it.

248
00:30:02,810 --> 00:30:06,080
They don't care about you. And they say, do not intervene.

249
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,229
Let them know that. I know it's not saying do not intervene.

250
00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:13,730
You're saying because what you've suggested is the angels and protectors.

251
00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:18,560
Natal Okay, so I just have a problem with yeah.

252
00:30:18,770 --> 00:30:26,990
People from the world coming but Nino to you said that you can intervene against state banks here right.

253
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,060
And force them to provide water to the suffering.

254
00:30:33,410 --> 00:30:36,680
And I just think. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

255
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:42,590
Okay. So, so okay. So the situation is here. What is so this is Earth now is this is a.

256
00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:48,440
So then the question is what is the relation between the state is not national state.

257
00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:52,940
Right? So what is the relation between the state and this all this suffering?

258
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:59,450
So I suggest that are three possibilities. You can contribute by doing doing it.

259
00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:02,610
You can contribute by. Enabling it to fail to prevent it. Yeah.

260
00:31:03,210 --> 00:31:10,460
So if, if, if none of them did just a cool state, then of course to be able to say, okay, yeah.

261
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:20,280
So I'm going to agree that it is only, you know, it is less costly and important, but it still could still be permissible.

262
00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:24,300
Okay. I think you two disagree. Okay. I'm just guessing.

263
00:31:24,510 --> 00:31:30,030
And it took a while. Just slightly, wherever I might.

264
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:39,260
Well, my one observation would be, too, that we're getting slightly muddled between classic humanitarian intervention and what you're describing.

265
00:31:39,270 --> 00:31:42,360
But anyway, some will pick up on the future. Yitzhak is next.

266
00:31:42,540 --> 00:31:50,190
Yeah. You think you're going to allow killing soldiers?

267
00:31:51,240 --> 00:32:00,240
Protect those killing. So the soldiers should be liable to killing in the scenario that you described it this way.

268
00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:04,020
Yeah. I mean, I found this a little bit actually.

269
00:32:04,020 --> 00:32:11,160
This isn't talking a lot about I mean, how many soldiers and to what extent is it reasonable to kill these soldiers?

270
00:32:11,850 --> 00:32:21,940
Because, first of all, should the soldiers be closed to allow enable to prevent it?

271
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:31,480
Yeah. So it supposed and this is a very realistic scenario we can talk about in this context, but is please, I welcome it.

272
00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:39,090
Suppose the soldiers are who they happen to be.

273
00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:44,820
Yeah. And that's why, you know, they are not the enabler.

274
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:53,790
But those are who? Those who. So I would assume that the plausible description that not all soldiers are poor,

275
00:32:53,790 --> 00:33:02,309
but a significant number of these soldiers in African countries are among the very unlucky assume that to be the case.

276
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:07,530
So they are not that really bad guys, so they can be about enabling.

277
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,030
You're talking about the state or the some of the most of the citizens of.

278
00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:16,130
Yeah. Very affluent. Talking about the.

279
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:21,300
I'm talking about the basically the responsibilities of the affluent part of.

280
00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:29,100
Yeah. Yeah. So all their lives are what I am thinking might not be part of this of the military forces.

281
00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:33,089
I'm not really talking about whether or not these people are liable to kill because,

282
00:33:33,090 --> 00:33:37,290
you know, in this day, I am not talking about really about killing civilians.

283
00:33:37,780 --> 00:33:42,089
Well, I told you, yes, there will be a killing of soldiers because it's a war.

284
00:33:42,090 --> 00:33:47,130
And why are they in what are they libel? Yeah. So what you have that that's I mean,

285
00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:53,309
one of the things that was personally for me when I read that is the doctrine of responsibility

286
00:33:53,310 --> 00:33:57,630
to protect people is that they don't mention killing of soldiers as a problem of intervention.

287
00:33:58,890 --> 00:34:05,900
Not in one sentence in this this report is is the death of soldiers for intervention, not the one sentence.

288
00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:09,050
That's pretty amazing. So, so, so, so.

289
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:14,220
Because they are not part of the dominant view that they can see this possibly.

290
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,440
Yeah. They. Right. So and they're considering the death of civilians.

291
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:23,330
That's that's that's a huge obstacle to intervention. What,

292
00:34:23,530 --> 00:34:30,599
what how much problems it will make for the Israeli intervention is not something

293
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:36,780
that they consider the soldiers who are said to oppose the intervention.

294
00:34:37,230 --> 00:34:44,110
To what extent they can be helpful. So but I don't think I am an Orthodox fan.

295
00:34:44,220 --> 00:34:50,890
Partly so. To what extent are these people liable?

296
00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:58,620
Many of them will probably not be liable in a sense, but still it could be convinced of all the.

297
00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:01,540
So who are you speaking about now? The soldiers. Soldiers?

298
00:35:03,070 --> 00:35:13,920
If it is not many in Egypt, after all the member countries, I mean, definitely I can definitely understand.

299
00:35:14,290 --> 00:35:17,780
We are talking about 9 million children. Yes.

300
00:35:19,710 --> 00:35:22,990
Pearl Harbour, 1240 people.

301
00:35:22,990 --> 00:35:28,180
I think soldiers were killed, 1200 something.

302
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:36,760
Very, very small number. I do not I am not sure how many soldiers it would necessarily figure.

303
00:35:37,050 --> 00:35:42,000
And then but then the question is, they will be fighting an unjust war.

304
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:50,370
If they will. If they resist, resist. So assuming, of course, that intervention is justified.

305
00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:54,030
So they would be fighting an unjust war. So they become.

306
00:35:54,510 --> 00:36:00,720
And then they can they become that. But they are not liable by virtue of the just cause of the protectors.

307
00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:07,680
The future of something else. Yes. And if the protectors make.

308
00:36:09,130 --> 00:36:22,960
But the serious effort to inform earthlings of them is not to what extent, what could, what could, what could affluent country government the focus?

309
00:36:23,410 --> 00:36:37,390
No, you have to find what you do. Tell them to justify, make them make it plausible that the soldiers are failing in their duty to contain the rebels.

310
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,509
Okay. I've got a couple of fingers on this particular point, but I'm going to ask you to be brief because I have a long list.

311
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:48,280
Okay. So I've got Guy and Nina and Victor who all want to come in on this particular point.

312
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,750
And then I have a list just to let you know that includes Geoff, James, Henry,

313
00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:58,440
someone I don't know at the back and Victor and someone I don't know at the back and more.

314
00:36:58,450 --> 00:37:02,739
So we have to go to the both of you and cut you off.

315
00:37:02,740 --> 00:37:08,020
Exactly. So, guys, quickly, you need to quickly and declaring quickly involved.

316
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:14,200
Normally the soldiers, as we were reacting, was effectively just corroborating it.

317
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:20,140
The soldiers have substantial responsibility for the kinds of harms that war causes.

318
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:32,350
So if, for example, the United States is about to invade without good cause in Iraq, there are some very, very culpable people for that.

319
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:42,040
A small group of people sitting of Washington, DC, but the people in the mid range responsibility would be the soldiers rather than the civilians

320
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,440
somewhere who once voted for some government on some topic for the actual harm causes.

321
00:37:47,570 --> 00:37:51,040
You're not talking about the American soldiers, not about the soldiers.

322
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:59,439
What about the American soldiers? That they are the ones who are sort of more responsible than the individuals who just sit

323
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,570
at home and once maybe voted for the leader who now sent these soldiers to do the fighting.

324
00:38:05,530 --> 00:38:10,599
And. Whereas, in this economy, more responsible, morally culpable sense?

325
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:19,180
Or do you mean. Yeah, but not necessarily as well responsible as the ones who caused the harm.

326
00:38:19,420 --> 00:38:25,930
And to some extent either no fault of the responsible, no more than causally responsible.

327
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:35,320
But this is an example of attacking the horrible Swiss Banking Corp, also known as HSBC.

328
00:38:35,710 --> 00:38:43,240
You are attacking your soldiers, which have nothing to do essentially with the kinds of harms which were caused to the poor people.

329
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:50,260
So the people were likely to be killed, not correlated to any way to the people who are the ones causing the harm.

330
00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:58,250
Yes. That may not be the situation for some humanitarian intervention.

331
00:39:00,270 --> 00:39:12,690
In this in this paper in situation where they just don't care about the failure of food production.

332
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:16,620
On prime example uninformed farmers just die and.

333
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:24,410
We can't allow the electorate to solve this so that we are not allowed to interact,

334
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:35,760
which shows that maybe they should be limited to the perception of people in the world that we can inform them.

335
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,880
Right. They are coming in to Congress and they go home.

336
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,340
Here's the reason why we're coming. You shouldn't fight us. You have a judge cause you should go home.

337
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:52,490
And if you don't go home, you could say. But. If they want, yes, they will run things in the office.

338
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,709
So the question, why doesn't he mention the killing of soldiers and whether they can ever be viable?

339
00:39:57,710 --> 00:40:02,690
And that is because the humanitarian intervention as contingent and is not about

340
00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:08,290
coercing these agent into doing something with the use of military force like here

341
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,860
bombing African states into changing the structural setup of the world that is

342
00:40:12,860 --> 00:40:17,509
overriding the sovereignty of an existing state in order that to do something yourself,

343
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:19,730
like preventing them from inflicting bodily harm.

344
00:40:19,970 --> 00:40:25,280
So just to reiterate my point that I think that notwithstanding the merits of your point in its by itself,

345
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,780
it is not an apology of humanitarian intervention, and I think it would be more productive than that.

346
00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:34,700
On the very important point of redistribute, of course, of course, to change structural systems.

347
00:40:34,970 --> 00:40:42,020
We will discuss them on their own merit and thresholds that are trying to expand the

348
00:40:42,020 --> 00:40:49,190
content of the treatment of feelings of existing infliction of bodily harm by a state on.

349
00:40:51,830 --> 00:40:55,950
Yeah. That, that might actually be allowed.

350
00:40:56,090 --> 00:40:56,930
That's not the thing about it.

351
00:40:56,930 --> 00:41:07,009
But I ask you, I mean, even I mean, soldiers will die even though you interview in order to force them to change the situation.

352
00:41:07,010 --> 00:41:11,600
So why don't why isn't the death of soldiers an issue for humanitarian intervention?

353
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:16,010
That I don't understand. I'm not saying that it should be defensive. That shouldn't be mentioned at all.

354
00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:22,030
And maybe there is an omission, but it's much less of a problem than in your case, where you have the primary.

355
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,449
That you have to answer is why would anyone in and out of that state be liable to

356
00:41:26,450 --> 00:41:31,650
be subjected to military force in response to in order to change the structure?

357
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:40,960
And I'm just saying it is state. Your argument as opposed to how classically humanitarian interventionism.

358
00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:45,629
Which is a minimal approach. And then you're doing what you're trying to do with the agencies.

359
00:41:45,630 --> 00:41:52,190
Intervening is doing that. You're not protecting the state. Oh, yeah.

360
00:41:52,250 --> 00:42:01,260
Yeah. Do you want to keep. I'll just say, I mean, so what I'm thinking about is that actually three things.

361
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:07,960
First is, what is the cost that people have to take on in order to do something really long term?

362
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:15,940
And then what extent is it okay to kill soldiers in order to seize control of the government?

363
00:42:16,510 --> 00:42:24,490
And then, of course, to what extent within the system is a certain number of civilians as collateral damage and of course,

364
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:35,920
the civilians might be of this affluent so that that will reduce their weight in the proportionality consideration.

365
00:42:36,010 --> 00:42:42,380
But. But I think to simplify and strengthen your proposal.

366
00:42:42,410 --> 00:42:50,030
It's just my thinking is very simple to say that we have an obligation to provide some resources to that level off the rich and the poor,

367
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:55,020
the obligation to provide for them some resources which they need to save their lives.

368
00:42:55,700 --> 00:43:06,260
We violate that obligation. And when we do that, then we now become liable to much greater harm to save our lives.

369
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,930
Then when our soldiers from a defender, they just have like blockers, they just block the people coming in from getting resources.

370
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:22,070
I don't want to know how many blockers you can kill to get the resources that you need for survival.

371
00:43:22,580 --> 00:43:31,069
And then most people think, well, even innocent blockers, you can kill them if you have an entitlement to go through the place where they are.

372
00:43:31,070 --> 00:43:35,390
To get to that, they need to survive the survival that they need to survive.

373
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:44,660
Palpable blockers. No problem. Right. So the soldiers don't look down because that whole block of in the way of us getting the resources that we need.

374
00:43:45,260 --> 00:43:55,280
They might not necessarily be culpable. I mean, even after the the blockers, if someone says, I need this resources for oil,

375
00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:01,309
this person's in my way, I think many more of the needs surviving.

376
00:44:01,310 --> 00:44:06,590
And there is one possible way to be the famous head of the free enterprise case where there are people drowning in the water.

377
00:44:06,590 --> 00:44:09,830
Someone is climbing up a ladder and then they freeze on the ladder.

378
00:44:10,060 --> 00:44:13,580
Well, people are trying to get help for this person and eventually just throw him off.

379
00:44:13,970 --> 00:44:19,250
Okay. He's a blocker, first of all, to do that, right, because so many people are in the water.

380
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:27,340
Thanks. I think it's a good proposal, but I don't think you can just keep any number of units of blockers of anyone.

381
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:37,520
But just as long as you're saving more lives than I can, I go to the vet.

382
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,620
Are you dying to come in on this point? Because otherwise I'll go to jail more or less.

383
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:47,700
Okay. Can I be brief and then Jack and come down quite a bit?

384
00:44:47,820 --> 00:44:57,490
Most of what I want him to say has already been said. And I think this. The finger is not being properly used.

385
00:44:57,820 --> 00:45:01,430
Okay. All right. I'm quite happy to concur with that.

386
00:45:01,450 --> 00:45:05,080
I'm much more used to no fingers. I never chair with fingers except with philosophers.

387
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,559
So you'll be very brief, please.

388
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,840
And then I'll go to jazz stylist, University of Hong Kong.

389
00:45:11,230 --> 00:45:18,640
I was going back to the to the point way force can be used to or for actual people to do something.

390
00:45:18,850 --> 00:45:25,809
I think most people in this area, and surprisingly have absolutely no problem to use, forced by the police,

391
00:45:25,810 --> 00:45:33,670
for example, for egalitarian justice to suppress people into paying their taxes for redistributive purposes.

392
00:45:34,270 --> 00:45:38,590
Yeah, the question is not even starving, but, you know, getting a video recorder,

393
00:45:38,770 --> 00:45:43,180
which allegedly in our liberal democracies you need in order not to be poor.

394
00:45:43,420 --> 00:45:48,520
But suddenly, when the question is about people starving somewhere on a massive scale,

395
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:57,940
then suddenly it's completely incomprehensible to say that people should use force in or could use force on affluent people in order to help them.

396
00:45:58,180 --> 00:46:02,229
So I would like to help you just. Yeah.

397
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:11,240
Okay. Yeah, it's it's a little bit I mean, but it is different because these people are not part of the same fight as in Israel, but still.

398
00:46:12,370 --> 00:46:15,430
Yes. Well,

399
00:46:17,290 --> 00:46:29,650
I did want to say that this is a question about liability for omissions and in particular submissions to fulfil the duties that that people have.

400
00:46:30,130 --> 00:46:33,640
And it's an issue about the liability also of people who.

401
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:38,260
Protect people. Failed to fulfil their duties from those receiving.

402
00:46:39,650 --> 00:46:43,040
In force, compel the fulfilment of the duty.

403
00:46:43,310 --> 00:46:52,219
And that sense, it's actually quite different. Lansky's example of a company that is manufacturing ready to take over is actually quite

404
00:46:52,220 --> 00:46:59,320
different because that's the case for doing harm that the paper is concerned with instance,

405
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,570
failing, wrongfully allowing harm to occur.

406
00:47:03,170 --> 00:47:09,130
And it's just an analogy with something like this.

407
00:47:09,140 --> 00:47:14,730
Imagine there's a gated community. Part of the United States.

408
00:47:14,740 --> 00:47:19,110
Millions of people starving outside the gates and to starve to death is the

409
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:24,420
responsibility of the people within the gated community for their immediate plight.

410
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:30,929
And third parties seek to assume that the people within the gated community have far

411
00:47:30,930 --> 00:47:36,420
more food than they need to save the people who are starving outside the gates.

412
00:47:38,820 --> 00:47:45,830
People starving outside the gates are too famished to be able to break into the gated community on their own.

413
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:54,720
So some third parties seek to break into the gated community to steal the food on behalf of the people starving outside.

414
00:47:55,260 --> 00:48:00,690
The gated community, of course, has paid the guards there to protect these people now.

415
00:48:01,770 --> 00:48:06,419
The normal analysis of this kind of situation is that if the people inside the gated community,

416
00:48:06,420 --> 00:48:12,780
even though they may have a duty to give away their resources to the poor, people nevertheless have.

417
00:48:14,010 --> 00:48:17,210
And most people are quite rightly wrong.

418
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,620
It is in this case that they are doing wrong,

419
00:48:19,620 --> 00:48:30,300
but we believe that the property belongs to them inside and they've hired these guards to enforce that their right to keep their resources.

420
00:48:30,780 --> 00:48:38,010
This may be a helpful way to think about your example, just a kind of parallel case on a smaller scale.

421
00:48:38,550 --> 00:48:45,850
I think the answer is yes. One in Haiti, in some sense, this is this is what we all expect them to do.

422
00:48:45,850 --> 00:48:49,020
If somebody is breaking and trying to steal stuff, it's their job to do it.

423
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:58,470
I agree with you. They ought not to defend their possessions, whether they make themselves liable actually to be killed on behalf.

424
00:49:00,610 --> 00:49:06,580
In advance to say the people outside and that that I think is occurring it's going to depend on.

425
00:49:07,550 --> 00:49:15,490
Judgements of personality, internal and enlargement liabilities and other numbers, the number of starving people, the number of guards and so forth.

426
00:49:16,090 --> 00:49:21,560
Yeah. But. Yeah.

427
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:30,170
I mean, I mean, my paper is definitely about failing to prevent light, but it's also about doing sovereign risk.

428
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:38,580
In this case, we are assuming that the gay community has not have any.

429
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:45,160
There is no contribution towards the salvation of the people outside.

430
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:50,690
So but I don't think there is any right to do wrong.

431
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:54,079
So it's hard to give a good argument for it.

432
00:49:54,080 --> 00:50:04,670
But if if if a person has a certain duty to provide a system of justice or just the right to do wrong is not a permission to do wrong.

433
00:50:04,670 --> 00:50:08,320
But I don't think I'm against intervention. I deny that.

434
00:50:08,580 --> 00:50:11,890
I don't know. I just wanted to say that I think I mean, yeah.

435
00:50:12,290 --> 00:50:19,999
So I think the the duty of according to basic principles of our systems is pretty weak.

436
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,800
Likely does not demand that much of you,

437
00:50:21,890 --> 00:50:28,220
but I do actually think that you have a duty to give it up and you expected that somebody else should enforce that.

438
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:42,560
So let me say, I mean, let's say there is a person who is drowning and I am standing nearby before I can press the button and drain away the water.

439
00:50:42,830 --> 00:50:46,700
I'm not doing it, maybe because I do not know about it.

440
00:50:48,530 --> 00:50:54,320
In that case, I think and whatever duty I would have to take on at a cost,

441
00:50:54,740 --> 00:51:08,360
I think any other person can import it on me unless unless the imposition of this cost and and other costs have to be factored in.

442
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:17,150
The but if that is factored in, I do not think this person has any right to resist having that cost imposed on him.

443
00:51:18,410 --> 00:51:24,440
You just have to accept the cost. So in my in my view, what I would say is liable to that cost.

444
00:51:26,930 --> 00:51:36,919
And then the same goes for this for affluent people, I think we are massively doing things.

445
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:47,389
We have a duty not to do it and we don't have any claim against being forced to stop doing like I do.

446
00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:57,730
I just don't think so. The question to what extent these people who are contractors would be liable to be killed.

447
00:51:57,730 --> 00:52:03,790
That would obviously depend very much about the information they have and the numbers.

448
00:52:07,830 --> 00:52:13,350
Okay. James Yeah. Okay. To start with, I've got kind of a couple of small technical points.

449
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:19,560
You said earlier that the ICES report doesn't say anything about Oh isn't really concerned with the soldiers lives.

450
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:25,740
I don't think that's particularly fair because the ICES report does talk about me and it does talk about the fact that

451
00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:33,030
intervenors needs to be very careful in the use of means and needs to take on greater to maximise force protection,

452
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:41,909
so and so forth. So I think kind of implicitly at least they are kind of a little bit concerned about, you know, these, these sorts of issues.

453
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:45,120
But that's going to be a very small, small only.

454
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:50,490
I kind of got another point about the implication of the art of peer to peer here.

455
00:52:50,580 --> 00:52:56,969
Now, since the ICES report The Art of Peace, a goal to be something different, essentially.

456
00:52:56,970 --> 00:53:03,240
So it's evolved to be about for war crimes, war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

457
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:07,020
And it's got a very narrow views of what these are.

458
00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:11,610
And I my worry about the framing of the paper in terms of the overall activities of a massively

459
00:53:11,610 --> 00:53:18,260
expanding the occupation advocates the IP in the UN or wherever constantly they look pleased.

460
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:24,780
The people that are kind of sympathetic to the document simply funding it as they please stop trying to kind of push the RCP boundaries.

461
00:53:25,230 --> 00:53:28,680
The RCP is what it's about. Let's, let's build a consensus about it.

462
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,780
So that is one question about the framing.

463
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:38,639
Now I've got this is a bigger point about the paper and I've got worried a sleight of hand is going fall, so a sleight of hand.

464
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:47,850
So it's some sort of trick being performed. And I mean, my worry is this that you talk you use the itis criteria and these kind of just war

465
00:53:47,860 --> 00:53:56,370
criteria you see to whether the aliens meet these criteria have kind of evolved over time.

466
00:53:56,370 --> 00:54:03,149
They're very much, I think, political criteria. So that kind of things about here and the importance of the UN Security Council,

467
00:54:03,150 --> 00:54:08,760
the importance of light intention and even in certainly to that last resort and then you apply these to aliens,

468
00:54:09,150 --> 00:54:12,719
you say, well, most of the things don't apply to aliens because of the aliens.

469
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:16,080
There isn't any appropriate authority. Right.

470
00:54:16,110 --> 00:54:23,759
And tensions are not an issue here and so on. And the social now I think you've kind of got two options really, to kind of avoid this sleight of hand.

471
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,640
You can either say, well, we should have intergalactic principles,

472
00:54:26,670 --> 00:54:32,880
so there should be something like a Star Trek federation that would be that would authorise, yeah.

473
00:54:32,970 --> 00:54:35,640
To be that provision in decision making procedures worldwide.

474
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:42,870
So whether they would be such an intervention or whether you should have some sort of, you should have more real world examples.

475
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:48,330
So Naito intervenes to do something like this or whoever the he or whoever.

476
00:54:48,570 --> 00:54:55,380
So I think that the, the one thing I have is that if you use these kind of very much political,

477
00:54:55,710 --> 00:55:01,470
real world in the literal sense of in the sense of observing the fact that these are all, well, the criteria.

478
00:55:01,590 --> 00:55:06,299
And and you're saying they don't apply to an alien case.

479
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:10,560
And this, I think, potentially means that you can say it is permissible to intervene.

480
00:55:12,530 --> 00:55:21,650
You are correct. Yes. They are talking about maybe implicitly about soldiers to what I mentioned was that they just do not mention the word soldiers.

481
00:55:22,140 --> 00:55:28,830
Yeah. So a lot of the of it, they don't seem to think about it.

482
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:36,640
But that. If I mean.

483
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:54,120
I'm no expert on artifice, so but I also noticed that when the UN Assembly actually ratified, then it was narrow.

484
00:55:54,570 --> 00:56:09,820
So I agree on that. But I but I would argue for that that this narrowing is justified in the sense that it's morally wrong.

485
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:16,050
I mean, if there is a country to have a certain population who are starving,

486
00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:23,190
they just don't care about it because they don't care about and they don't allow others to assist them.

487
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,820
Cyclone Nargis example it's the Cyclone Nargis example or then genocide.

488
00:56:28,830 --> 00:56:34,070
It's you've got people subject to a natural disaster and their government is not providing them,

489
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:38,130
allowing outsiders to come in and give international assistance. Yeah.

490
00:56:38,190 --> 00:56:43,210
So if you don't allow that, then I think military intervention could be justified.

491
00:56:43,260 --> 00:56:43,350
Yeah.

492
00:56:43,350 --> 00:56:51,860
I mean, I agree with you on a moral level, but on a practical level, if you want the other piece of work and doctrine, that can take more than that.

493
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:52,820
I mean, it's a small point.

494
00:56:52,850 --> 00:57:01,710
I think it's just I think we need to be careful of the way that we're framing the practical level because there is something missing.

495
00:57:01,950 --> 00:57:10,230
I mean, we lack the aliens. So I mean, obviously, this is not I am not trying to be very practical,

496
00:57:13,950 --> 00:57:22,230
but the point about the sleight of hand is actually right that that you didn't yet answer is that the agent,

497
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,090
the aliens are basically delegated this by someone else.

498
00:57:27,090 --> 00:57:32,069
And if you the right intention criterion as I understand it and just war theory is

499
00:57:32,070 --> 00:57:36,930
applied to the delegator not to not to the aliens who might be delegated the role.

500
00:57:36,930 --> 00:57:42,629
So by you saying it doesn't apply it actually it was it was a bit of a sleight of hand

501
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:47,070
in that you go around the question of whose right intentions should actually be.

502
00:57:47,220 --> 00:57:50,340
Yeah, the aliens. Right intention isn't the issue.

503
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:55,140
The right intention is actually the angel's right intention that you should be looking at.

504
00:57:55,660 --> 00:58:00,460
Other individuals are the others. So the case or not the case.

505
00:58:00,510 --> 00:58:10,560
Okay. So yeah, I first of all, I do not really think intentions is that crucial, even if so,

506
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,680
after all this discussion, we all agree that this would be the right thing.

507
00:58:13,980 --> 00:58:21,630
But the only reason why I ask them to do it is because for the fun of it, I think didn't do it.

508
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,830
So I don't I don't think I don't think it has actually is crucial.

509
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:33,690
But okay, so it's more like, okay, but then you should say that actually you should say yes because I say okay.

510
00:58:34,530 --> 00:58:42,480
Yeah. I mean next next was the fellow at the the back it Frankfurt.

511
00:58:44,130 --> 00:58:51,510
I'm going to read it because it seems to be that you proposed a solution to the structural problem of global injustice.

512
00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:57,419
And I mean, one which has already been posed. I mean, how should the aliens actually achieve that goal?

513
00:58:57,420 --> 00:59:00,900
And sometimes it sounds as if they just threaten the governments, the government,

514
00:59:00,910 --> 00:59:08,610
see the threat and then no killing at all, and they will just sign a new WTO treaty and everything will be okay.

515
00:59:08,610 --> 00:59:15,360
And then you ask yourself, okay, if what happens if the governments are nice, are not willing to accept that.

516
00:59:15,930 --> 00:59:21,360
But then, I mean, the first question is, but if you after the war, I mean, what is the solution now?

517
00:59:21,810 --> 00:59:24,790
Should this treaty design and then everything is okay?

518
00:59:24,790 --> 00:59:31,499
But in a way you are proposing like a philosopher king or the author of the authoritarian rule of the elite,

519
00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:41,610
because either the aliens should change really the minds of the citizens or they have to be in place then forcing all the morally right decisions.

520
00:59:41,910 --> 00:59:46,980
So a very basic question, I think is what the relation between morality and democracy is here,

521
00:59:47,250 --> 00:59:53,550
because no way one might suspect that you kind of just want to get rid of democracy as it works today.

522
00:59:54,900 --> 00:59:58,860
I mean, that's a provocative question. The second is that with the gated community,

523
00:59:58,860 --> 01:00:04,349
I think it has to do with whether you enter the gated community and steal something from somebody or whether there are some

524
01:00:04,350 --> 01:00:11,100
revolutionaries outside and say we want to change the entire system so that in the end there might be gated communities,

525
01:00:11,100 --> 01:00:15,990
but there are no people starving outside anymore. The gated communities might be a little bit more moderate.

526
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,610
And the question of, you know, right, right. Of wrongdoing would disappear.

527
01:00:20,910 --> 01:00:22,770
So it's painted the paper.

528
01:00:22,890 --> 01:00:29,250
It seems that you just say, well, they intervene in order to force somebody to get resources, which is a very concrete thing.

529
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:36,749
And sometimes you talk about changing the structures. And after the structures have been changed, then things will be so legitimate.

530
01:00:36,750 --> 01:00:41,909
Then we don't have to. You know, so we have the second question.

531
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:53,310
Which alternative I am proposing? I mean I mean, obviously, it would be a problem if it needs intervention to go ahead and succeed.

532
01:00:53,550 --> 01:00:59,010
It will be a problem probably when the protectors leave, in a sense that then of course,

533
01:00:59,130 --> 01:01:07,830
democracy will continue and parties will target the provoke and there will be painful institutions back to back again.

534
01:01:07,830 --> 01:01:12,920
But of course, that will happen. So they're not to Europe.

535
01:01:12,930 --> 01:01:21,100
Last question and many of us things that even so it can be if it's also 2010.

536
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:33,540
Yes. And you will say 90 million people. Another thing is that at least in the Norwegian government, there will be people who support this very much.

537
01:01:34,290 --> 01:01:37,350
This is what you need. This is actually what we need.

538
01:01:37,410 --> 01:01:47,370
We need force from the outside to coordinate with governments or to force the Norwegians to give out their oil money.

539
01:01:47,740 --> 01:01:58,500
Yeah. To have a coordinated effort to solve this problem and to get that we need.

540
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:07,329
So I think the partner response is that it might go better than expected.

541
01:02:07,330 --> 01:02:14,490
This is fantastic because I do actually think that quite a few people have the moral belief that this is actually the right thing to do.

542
01:02:15,060 --> 01:02:22,500
And I actually also think that this will be solved in I mean, not in two or three years, but maybe ten, 50 or 100 years.

543
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:25,580
I do actually think that. Sorry. By war.

544
01:02:25,950 --> 01:02:32,760
No, no. Well, because people don't think it's morally right that these people who die from poverty related causes.

545
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:40,660
I think actually by institutional change or by voluntary contribution in this situation.

546
01:02:42,570 --> 01:02:46,950
But I do think the moral beliefs are here with us already.

547
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:59,550
So if the aliens had a moral zero, they would have people in our drinking water.

548
01:03:00,450 --> 01:03:05,670
Maybe that would do that. But of course, they don't come forward with the bad.

549
01:03:05,700 --> 01:03:16,580
So you are great lawmakers. And so you said that the Saudis is going to lack a reasonable reason to reject the Iranian demands.

550
01:03:17,190 --> 01:03:21,720
So just lack of just a pause in this conflict makes me think they have a just cause.

551
01:03:22,670 --> 01:03:28,200
Is that what I definitely would say?

552
01:03:28,210 --> 01:03:40,560
The truth is if I mean I mean, I'm basically Carter position, but I tend to think that because I should ask them to do it and that I'm.

553
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:44,680
So I don't think they have a just cause to resist.

554
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:51,940
But I am a little bit uncertain to what extent they could reasonably believe that there is, and that's what they must depend on,

555
01:03:52,270 --> 01:04:01,600
what happens with their people and what kind of information the collectors are able to give them to questions that sort of like to ask at least

556
01:04:02,170 --> 01:04:08,950
the first questions about which is how difficult the whole exercise of apportioning responsibility for them over the years will make it.

557
01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:12,100
And they're going to come up with all the kinds of tedious objections here,

558
01:04:12,100 --> 01:04:15,069
but nevertheless need to be canvassed or responded to, I think, by the aliens.

559
01:04:15,070 --> 01:04:20,590
So they can object that if you are going to persuade them to wage war on the people who support the governments,

560
01:04:20,590 --> 01:04:24,190
you get to wage war on the governments themselves that they're as liable,

561
01:04:24,190 --> 01:04:29,670
if not more liable to not only support the current government when they could reasonably would not support one.

562
01:04:30,490 --> 01:04:37,540
Then you've got all the overzealous governments that don't take a female empowerment very seriously and those kinds of things too.

563
01:04:37,570 --> 01:04:42,070
They contribute as well on these governments to transport contraception and then against the reproductive rights.

564
01:04:42,490 --> 01:04:47,260
So in some ways the developed country is definitely going to say, well, the answer to this is, is condoms are.

565
01:04:48,500 --> 01:04:52,550
And that might be it might be kind of embarrassed by it.

566
01:04:52,820 --> 01:04:54,560
It might not be one, but it's a difficult question.

567
01:04:54,710 --> 01:05:03,620
I mean, it doesn't seem obviously like that if, you know, your your child is going to die, but you're he still has to have one.

568
01:05:03,830 --> 01:05:08,240
I mean, it's a very difficult question here about what causes both of those.

569
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:13,020
Yeah. The soldiers might might visit the Afghanis for clarification on this.

570
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:19,569
I mean, how can they be sure if the soldiers think that their country is being punished or

571
01:05:19,570 --> 01:05:24,440
attacked resources more than the aliens are justified in taking from that country,

572
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,420
then they might not have a right to exist.

573
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:36,950
So the question of the data sending of an explanation as to why the burden falls to the extensive is precisely this of all of them involved.

574
01:05:36,950 --> 01:05:40,880
And only the nations also have some collective responsibility.

575
01:05:41,670 --> 01:05:52,350
The second thing is they might still say something, which is there is a general notion of just cause here, a notion of just course on your count,

576
01:05:52,580 --> 01:06:00,280
and that whenever Xe probably fails to discharge their duty in respect of a basic human right affirmative interest,

577
01:06:00,290 --> 01:06:05,280
I take it to a sufficient extent, same as it just caused the war against that.

578
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:07,549
And if that's true,

579
01:06:07,550 --> 01:06:15,920
then that might just seem it's worth asking whether it's possible is too expensive a notion just cause we have to make it was everyone in the world

580
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:25,549
and a lot of people in the world liable to the decision of a just cause for war must take into account all the different white lines in that,

581
01:06:25,550 --> 01:06:28,550
for example. Well, I mean, so.

582
01:06:29,660 --> 01:06:34,040
If that's true, not just the policy, but also the deeply important civil and political rights,

583
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:40,190
for example, then the scope of people who might avail of this requirement is going to expand further.

584
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:43,940
So the question is, I mean, but even so, I wonder,

585
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:53,300
do you think the split second question is would lead to a more expansive account just because it makes a lot more people liable to violence?

586
01:06:54,050 --> 01:06:57,170
Presumably, but not obviously we take these other factors into account.

587
01:06:58,370 --> 01:07:03,949
So what we find is that just will continue after this is the kind of thing that where we have retirement villages,

588
01:07:03,950 --> 01:07:11,029
religious criteria to make allowance for the relative ease with which we satisfy this one is,

589
01:07:11,030 --> 01:07:18,750
I think, satisfied just by negligently failing to do the exact extent of the duty in respect of some basic human interest.

590
01:07:18,790 --> 01:07:27,200
Then are you sanguine about that slightly more expansive idea of what we can suggest that you think we should type of the vestiges of authority to?

591
01:07:28,050 --> 01:07:33,170
So a lots of there might be lots of just causes then, but there might be it might still be few justified wars.

592
01:07:33,950 --> 01:07:43,870
I mean, I don't understand why why allowing military force because of global poverty will expand the causes of war so much.

593
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:51,130
I mean, there are not many of the things that are left out of that. I mean, do you think that.

594
01:07:51,140 --> 01:08:00,280
Well, you might expand it because partly because this makes explicit the idea that negligence is is grounds for just cause.

595
01:08:01,980 --> 01:08:09,440
And it looks like it's only negligence with regard to something really serious, like, for example, 35,000 children every day.

596
01:08:11,090 --> 01:08:14,930
I mean, it is negligence with regard to that. Something that is not very important.

597
01:08:14,930 --> 01:08:19,219
Of course not. Yeah. I think it's an example of turning off the air conditioning.

598
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:30,110
That's wrong, I think, because that's not the cause of all the lying to the aliens invisible to force.

599
01:08:30,110 --> 01:08:37,850
It only means oppressing the trainees is the oppression of the trainees.

600
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,430
I don't know, you know, because they enable after.

601
01:08:43,580 --> 01:08:46,729
Yeah. If everyone will resist slightly.

602
01:08:46,730 --> 01:08:55,370
Well everyone will just. I think that it would be different know but that is one of the civil political rights that are as important.

603
01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:59,510
Yes. Because our point lies at the word subsistence.

604
01:08:59,510 --> 01:09:04,640
It does not apply to free speech or people working for anything like that.

605
01:09:04,670 --> 01:09:09,920
So do you think that the distributive stuff is more important than civil discourse and it

606
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:14,890
is not and was in the category of the fundamental rights that are appropriated this way.

607
01:09:14,900 --> 01:09:18,170
Let federal 25,000 people who didn't have free speech on earth.

608
01:09:18,170 --> 01:09:22,249
I think the case for intervention from outer space is this strong.

609
01:09:22,250 --> 01:09:27,830
Yes. Okay. And then there was the first question, the long first question.

610
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:33,410
Yes, that is I think I should understand because I wonder what that is.

611
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:40,160
But surely afterwards, maybe we will be responsible. All the people that were responsible violently attacked that that was the first question.

612
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,190
Right. You know, as we spoke, basically. Yeah.

613
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:50,510
So so the idea here is that so if they are more responsible, yeah, you should take them if you can.

614
01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:54,440
And because it could help the tension here is it won't help.

615
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:04,220
And in the sense what I'm thinking of is that countries like America, UK,

616
01:10:04,250 --> 01:10:09,709
Norway, we have well-functioning governments and if we were forced to do this,

617
01:10:09,710 --> 01:10:16,970
we could actually manage to do some of these non organised societies don't they do not have this ability.

618
01:10:17,390 --> 01:10:24,950
So you have really fortunate to do what they're able to do, but yes, even be able to do what the protectors tried to force us to do.

619
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:32,150
I think that is what, for example, what you're seeing, many of the people argue that they are able to do so.

620
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:39,590
And then the question is, even then, how do they complain that they are forced to do something,

621
01:10:40,100 --> 01:10:47,390
to do something that others also want to do but will not be forced to do because they are not able to do it?

622
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:51,820
No, I don't think we have a valid claim against not being forced to.

623
01:10:51,980 --> 01:10:59,120
For that reason you might have thought and it's clear to all of the people that that's not I don't think that's essential.

624
01:11:00,230 --> 01:11:04,760
Okay. I've got three names left on the list, so I'll start with Laura.

625
01:11:05,150 --> 01:11:12,260
Yes, thank you. I have a question. Your understanding of assistance face duties.

626
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:20,180
So when I think about assistance, I usually have in mind things like criminal duties on humanity.

627
01:11:20,180 --> 01:11:26,809
So these typically are duties to help those in need. So long as this is not too costly to yourself, they are imperfect duties.

628
01:11:26,810 --> 01:11:29,150
It's not that you owe them to any specific individual.

629
01:11:29,330 --> 01:11:34,100
But when you see people in need and you charge that it wouldn't be capacity at all to help them.

630
01:11:34,440 --> 01:11:42,340
And typically, when I read the discussion of assistance, they don't seem to have these characteristics.

631
01:11:42,350 --> 01:11:52,760
First of all, they don't seem to be empathic, doesn't matter the failure to assist and the person who is dying for it.

632
01:11:52,910 --> 01:11:58,410
And so it seems that they look a lot more like uses of justice than duties of assistance.

633
01:11:58,430 --> 01:12:02,270
It seems that you're breaking someone's entitlement. And what I want to ask you is,

634
01:12:03,230 --> 01:12:08,870
do you actually think that the duties of assistance so you think it is a just because there are views of justice that say

635
01:12:09,710 --> 01:12:16,700
when anyone falls below a certain threshold of entitlements and everybody else's entitlements are put into question.

636
01:12:17,270 --> 01:12:25,150
So that sort of your duty to health is actually a duty to give something that the other people are suffering, are entitled.

637
01:12:25,850 --> 01:12:32,509
And if that is the case, then the idea of an outside intervention to enforce the rights of these poor people might

638
01:12:32,510 --> 01:12:37,940
seem more plausible if you think that these assistance they do meetings of justice,

639
01:12:37,940 --> 01:12:40,220
that is to you know,

640
01:12:40,460 --> 01:12:47,720
it's not that you should be good with resources that you own and given to the poor people is that you're actually holding on to resources.

641
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,750
You're not entitled that they belong to them.

642
01:12:50,900 --> 01:12:56,510
And if if you were ready to fight this particular kind of framework,

643
01:12:56,510 --> 01:13:03,440
I think it would be easier for you to justify outside intervention, even when we are talking about assistance, because it would be so.

644
01:13:05,830 --> 01:13:13,160
A lot of what you have is something they are entitled to.

645
01:13:13,180 --> 01:13:22,330
But what I definitely think is awesome is like half an hour ago is that he's the person who has a duty to assist,

646
01:13:22,510 --> 01:13:27,610
has no duty to resist having to give up what he has a duty to give away.

647
01:13:28,570 --> 01:13:38,590
So, for example, if you have a duty to take on certain course in order to save the person in a report or the people have imposed that cost on them.

648
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:51,310
Right. And but that doesn't necessarily mean that let's say you have a duty to take on ten cost units in order to save the person from drowning,

649
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:58,280
whatever that is. But so that you don't know a lot, this person's from three are not culpable.

650
01:13:58,300 --> 01:14:01,660
An innocent bystander. So then you are enforced.

651
01:14:02,290 --> 01:14:08,679
This can cost the unit of your the person itself. So the person who is about to drown has not lost anything.

652
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:14,409
You have lost ten unit. In that case, it could be that your beloved personality all the way around, of course,

653
01:14:14,410 --> 01:14:21,280
that the person who I said could offer you compensation, whatever, because it was not for that.

654
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:27,880
He was entitled to this unit ten units. But I do think I don't think you have any right to raise it.

655
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:32,780
No, I don't think so. Very quickly together.

656
01:14:33,070 --> 01:14:43,210
And you are right. There's no place for cooperation, of course, for if it is just justice, basically, it is.

657
01:14:43,910 --> 01:14:50,200
There is no place for any kind of calculation is becoming obligatory.

658
01:14:50,420 --> 01:15:01,540
Yeah, it's possible that there are two kinds of nations justice based duties and some need or justification for assistance,

659
01:15:02,110 --> 01:15:11,170
which is not to do with the token, but something that could be calculated that usually is the duty or some kind of duty.

660
01:15:11,260 --> 01:15:22,720
But those two seems to be very different. It's possible that justice based duties regarding catastrophes might be very vague.

661
01:15:23,790 --> 01:15:28,170
And in such cases, no cooperation is needed.

662
01:15:29,490 --> 01:15:35,729
What do you mean, no calculation? As it is to judge that it's speculative,

663
01:15:35,730 --> 01:15:49,350
how much does it cost those who would help or assess it for the duty to do whatever it is that they have a duty to take on certain course?

664
01:15:49,350 --> 01:15:53,180
The calculation is to put the name on the cost.

665
01:15:53,190 --> 01:15:56,320
I mean, there's a limit on how much cost you have to give.

666
01:15:56,790 --> 01:16:00,220
In other cases, it would be okay. Yeah.

667
01:16:00,540 --> 01:16:04,680
I have to move it on to the weekend. Our last question. Sorry. Or did you want to very quickly respond?

668
01:16:04,830 --> 01:16:12,870
Okay, last two. So here and then, sir, and then we'll have the sort of writing to this.

669
01:16:12,870 --> 01:16:18,209
But I guess the other side of sort of sympathetic to your argument for the just cause.

670
01:16:18,210 --> 01:16:24,720
But I think that even at least for the the account liability of the nations underpins that

671
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:30,870
think that you can spend a lot of time on sort of the moral categorisation of the facts,

672
01:16:31,380 --> 01:16:38,910
but the actual account of the facts seems a bit impoverished. And that is, I thought you could draw a bit more heavily on poverty and others as well.

673
01:16:38,910 --> 01:16:45,000
So the notion of colonialism is a generational issue seems to me kind of implausible,

674
01:16:45,330 --> 01:16:49,380
and that links in to your remark that relations must be about trade.

675
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:56,100
And that also seems implausible when there is data issues about finance and investment, property rights and so on.

676
01:16:56,520 --> 01:17:03,360
None of which is actually has to do with trade, but are deeply embedded in colonial history in the post-colonial circumstances.

677
01:17:03,690 --> 01:17:09,480
And I think much more important to do the sorts of things therefore the public is interested in is account of global market structure.

678
01:17:10,230 --> 01:17:13,350
Well, what do you mean when you say generational?

679
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:17,100
What you mean? I mean, you are not colonising at all today.

680
01:17:17,130 --> 01:17:24,900
I if I mean, if I steal your ring and pass on to my children and they now enjoy the benefits of enjoying your ring,

681
01:17:24,930 --> 01:17:26,760
maybe that's a generational sort of issue.

682
01:17:27,330 --> 01:17:32,550
The theft of rings is a very good model for understanding property American relations in the contemporary economy.

683
01:17:32,850 --> 01:17:35,100
When they depend, they're of mostly intangible properties.

684
01:17:35,100 --> 01:17:41,200
They depend on titles secured through registers and other sorts of implements that depend upon a huge infrastructure,

685
01:17:41,220 --> 01:17:44,700
bureaucratic, infrastructural, legal infrastructure to keep going.

686
01:17:45,300 --> 01:17:49,440
And I don't think that the model is stealing rings and passing them on to your children.

687
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:52,080
You should discuss the generational justice issue.

688
01:17:52,090 --> 01:17:57,959
Just a very helpful model for understanding economic and legal relations in the contemporary global economy,

689
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:06,240
which are based upon huge continuing administrative and bureaucratic endeavours to keep certain structures in place and functioning.

690
01:18:06,450 --> 01:18:11,580
And I think that's the sort of idea that Polly has in mind needs to happen.

691
01:18:11,610 --> 01:18:17,870
That is not structure, that is not the same as in invading another country with arms and contrasting it with it.

692
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,540
I mean, but if you think about the situation in climate situation,

693
01:18:21,540 --> 01:18:27,509
that has implications for distribution of property and registered title and what was customary title the country targets overwritten

694
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:33,480
when it was created and that that has implications for who owns the land and who gets the benefits from direct cash crops on the land.

695
01:18:33,690 --> 01:18:39,270
But I think there's just a lot there that to just say it's a generational issue about theft,

696
01:18:39,670 --> 01:18:45,690
but it's talking about that and levelling over the level of enabling or not.

697
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,530
And I think it is an important distinction between enabling and doing.

698
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:54,840
Yeah, but again, I thought I thought the account of enabling harm within is kind of quite implausible.

699
01:18:55,200 --> 01:19:00,480
The main one actually looks at the details of the sort of institutional arrangements which are in place.

700
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:05,530
I mean, yes, if it was a state of natural property rights, I would might be the right model,

701
01:19:05,530 --> 01:19:10,710
but I don't think that is a very plausible account of contemporary economic relations.

702
01:19:11,130 --> 01:19:16,350
But another thing I wanted to say, I mean, that's a bit of factual questions, I guess,

703
01:19:16,350 --> 01:19:22,260
but another sort of issue and you talked about issues of ignorance on populations on the whole,

704
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:26,940
to the extent that the institutions have an important function generating that ignorance

705
01:19:27,790 --> 01:19:31,740
and you can analyse any kind of ideology or you could use a less loaded type of analysis.

706
01:19:32,190 --> 01:19:36,089
I mean, we don't really think but I don't imagine we think that, say German,

707
01:19:36,090 --> 01:19:39,719
Japanese citizens in the Second World War complete their ignorance when that

708
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:44,040
ignorance is the result of institutions set up to create certain states of mind.

709
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:49,620
And it's not clear to me that citizens of African countries complete their ignorance in their defence,

710
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:56,910
when that ignorance results in certain institutions and expectations that are set up precisely to make certain systems

711
01:19:56,910 --> 01:20:03,690
more tenable and more acceptable to people who face inheritance as ordinary humans don't understand why that are in fact,

712
01:20:04,140 --> 01:20:15,180
first of all I to that the idea that people are the originals for this account but they are not and they are not institutional in to anything.

713
01:20:15,180 --> 01:20:23,310
They are intelligent people on good universities. So if if these people are able to think that poverty is wrong, it is not implausible.

714
01:20:23,580 --> 01:20:27,059
My mom and also kids think it's wrong.

715
01:20:27,060 --> 01:20:36,290
But I mean, if intelligent people disagree, it could also be that ordinary Afghan people could disagree with Thomas poorly.

716
01:20:36,300 --> 01:20:41,090
That's one thing. The other thing is very clear.

717
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:50,580
The other thing is that I don't see why if some people in our government set up

718
01:20:50,580 --> 01:20:55,020
institutions in order to hide that they are contributing to global poverty,

719
01:20:55,260 --> 01:21:01,290
and I do think that we cannot be reasonable and be blamed for not finding that abnormal.

720
01:21:01,810 --> 01:21:06,090
And I think the notion of hiding something. Okay.

721
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,250
I'm going to give you, Seth, the last question.

722
01:21:09,010 --> 01:21:18,240
You have the enabling contributing section is obviously very important to the paper, and it presents some sort of.

723
01:21:19,300 --> 01:21:24,270
Something like a case or intuitions of cases like that.

724
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:33,460
But there is no attempt to provide a theoretical account of why these facts about causation have significant implications.

725
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:39,610
And that, I think, is that that, I think, is the challenge for anybody who wants to make this sort of I mean,

726
01:21:39,610 --> 01:21:43,360
this is the challenge that Jeff said in the 1994 paper.

727
01:21:44,260 --> 01:21:54,520
Pretty much all innocence and killing in cases of self-defence is how those bare vehicles of facts, if assets can be translated into our laws,

728
01:21:55,570 --> 01:21:59,320
except just by saying, well, we think that this guy would be liable to more than that guy would be.

729
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:05,080
And this guy was an enabler and that guy was a contributor. And so I would like to see a theoretical counterpoint of why make the difference.

730
01:22:07,420 --> 01:22:11,469
And then whether it whether or not there is this difference on the person case at all.

731
01:22:11,470 --> 01:22:15,370
Okay, so I do this right now. I don't know what's around me.

732
01:22:15,850 --> 01:22:22,480
Stretch my arms out and all of this not this have not the car and the car is now rolling down the hill towards the guy.

733
01:22:22,870 --> 01:22:27,790
Okay. Or in the second case, a hip classic car. And I'm not I'm not the rock out of the way.

734
01:22:28,810 --> 01:22:33,280
So the first one is contributing. The second one is enabling.

735
01:22:33,670 --> 01:22:40,210
In both cases, I don't know, anything is happening. So it is the bare causal facts that are different in those two cases.

736
01:22:40,620 --> 01:22:46,089
I just want to know why and why we should attribute moral significance of that.

737
01:22:46,090 --> 01:22:52,580
But I don't think it's something you can say I can do. That is the reason.

738
01:22:53,560 --> 01:23:04,990
I think it's plausible to say that people have a strong duty to try to avoid the care of the body movements and what and.

739
01:23:08,300 --> 01:23:14,210
The actions of a direct consequence of that is that to put in place the EPA.

740
01:23:15,170 --> 01:23:22,310
So if we throw the rock right, we all know that the European countries got pretty stupid.

741
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:29,719
But so you have a responsibility to find out how far is the goal and things like

742
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:35,870
that before they can remove a rock with no end to the room and it for ever.

743
01:23:36,500 --> 01:23:45,530
So it's hard to say that it's difficult. I think it's plausible to say that we can't help or be responsible for the

744
01:23:45,530 --> 01:23:54,860
removal of the rock in the same way as we are held responsible for throwing up.

745
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:58,400
Because when you remove a rock, you have removed it forever.

746
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:08,270
And if the trouble comes tomorrow, yesterday, or in one year, you're leaving everything that enabled it.

747
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:12,980
There's still no future. I still think that, you know.

748
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:16,759
Yeah, for a rock that looks like right now,

749
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:24,470
I think that in this case I stretch my arm that all of that is misguided because it is physically exactly the same in the two cases,

750
01:24:25,370 --> 01:24:30,030
literally identical except for that in this case, because the sequence one of.

751
01:24:30,070 --> 01:24:35,490
Yeah, I mean yeah no no not the idea of exploring more.

752
01:24:36,260 --> 01:24:37,430
It could be possible,

753
01:24:38,030 --> 01:24:46,320
but document possibilities should be able to give us some kind of contractual argument for why we are responsible for the process,

754
01:24:46,550 --> 01:24:51,050
but not removal of obstacles. Okay. Interesting.

755
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:56,840
Lots of interesting responses to what was a very provocative paper.

756
01:24:57,830 --> 01:25:06,229
And I want to thank Nancy very much for her initial response and to you for standing and taking on the comments for so long.

757
01:25:06,230 --> 01:25:11,470
It was intended and for the audience for putting up with someone who doesn't like it.