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Welcome to the Future of Journalism, a podcast from the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism.

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Amir Silva, deputy director of the institute and director of the Journalists Fellowship Programme on 3rd of May.

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Each year,

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the World Monks Press Freedom Day to show support for journalists whose ability to report freely is curtailed through harassment and intimidation.

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Online security threats, financial pressures, legal threats, as well as physical threats and the stark dangers of reporting from conflict zones.

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The most recent Press Freedom Index by Reporters Without Borders found that in almost three quarters of countries,

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journalism is constrained, seriously impeded or blocked outright.

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The day is also an opportunity to remember those journalists who have lost their lives due to them their work.

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The Committee to Protect Journalists has confirmed that this year alone,

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15 journalists have been killed in the nature of their work through covering the war in Ukraine.

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Narco trafficking in Mexico. And civil unrest in Haiti and elsewhere.

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We run the on this fellowship programme at the Reuters Institute, highlights some of these issues and crucially,

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to bring journalists from around the world reporting incredibly difficult,

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incredibly fast changing situations to talk to each other and to us about what can be done.

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And today, I'm really pleased to have two of our current fellows with us, Paula Molina Tapia from Chile and Maurice Onyango from Kenya.

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Hello, Mira. Welcome. And Maurice, welcome. Hello.

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Thank you so much for having us today. You're very welcome.

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Paula co-founded the News Chat Bot The Bot, which received the Journalism Award for Digital Excellence UAH,

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one of the country's top journalism prises,

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and she hosts a weekly Chilean female only political primetime TV programme and has worked as a BBC News Mundo contributor since 2014 as well.

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And Burrows is an Award-Winning freelance multimedia journalist and documentary filmmaker based in Nairobi.

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He's written for National Geographic, Global Investigative Journalism Network and Africa.com, amongst others,

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and he's produced documentaries for a wide range of outlets, including the National Geographic Africa Uncensored and in TV World.

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We're very, very lucky to have them with us. Paula, let me start with you.

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Chile experienced a very deep social unrest in 2019, and today it's writing a new constitution that's quite extraordinary to watch from the outside.

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What role do you think the freedom of press plays in this debate? Well, a freedom of express and the debate around a free press.

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It's one of the important topics in debate in the constitutional process.

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And I think this has highlighted some of the ongoing debate in Chile about

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how much do we need and how much do we need to protect freedom of expression.

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But at the same time, to which extent we as journalists, we who value journalism should be addressed.

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So the some of our flaws as communicators, some of those barriers that have impetus to fulfil our mission,

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I mean, in terms of diversity, in terms of exclusion,

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in terms of being able to really read the needs of Chilean society and to express them in a way that can really inform the public debate.

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So I think those two or aspects are in the debate today.

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Freedom of the press and freedom of expression, of course, has an important role in our constitutional process.

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And I think it has opened a debate about the need for a stronger freedom of

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press to protect freedom of press as the basis for other rights in our society.

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But at the same time, it has opened a conversation and it should be.

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I think it should be an ongoing conversation about which are our flaws as media,

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which our what are our problems in terms of diversity, in terms of women leadership,

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in terms of being able to read the needs of our society and to be able to express them

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in the public debate in order to have a more healthy political democratic debate.

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So I think those two aspects are playing a role in our constitutional debate.

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And what understanding do you think there is in the public and those playing the key roles in writing the

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Constitution on how important the media can be should be because Chile has gone from an authoritarian regime with,

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you know, kind of incredibly strict controls on press freedom to one that's emerging and is now really

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quite vibrant in this kind of big civil society in a protest movements across the country.

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I'm just wondering where you see journalism fitting in that? Yeah,

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that's a that's a very interesting question because I think one of the of the problems for Chile was our our our own lack of awareness about

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about the enormous amounts of a lot of problems that the society was dealing with and the need for a better and more secure health system,

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a more egalitarian educational system, a better provision of some basic securities,

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and that the fact that the media was not capable to see that coming.

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That points, in my opinion, to a flaw in our practises that we need to address that we can address.

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I think with complete respect to freedom of the press.

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But I think we also need to understand that.

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People may not feel or some people may need to be reassured to understand better,

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which is the role of the media, which is the role of the press and why it is important.

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A free press in the country because in order to understand that, I think we will have a better support for press freedom.

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And I'm seeing this in the context of a of a constitutional process that is trying to to better balance the the,

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of course, the freedom that is available for us as a society, but also a stronger public provision of some basic needs.

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I'm talking about again health, education and retirement and retirement system that doesn't rely so much on private and market and free market.

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So in this balance between how much the estate can secure for TV and society to be a democratic and a stable nation,

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and how important is to value democracy? I think this is the the place where our more important discussions are taking place.

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And of course, freedom of press is at the centre or is part of that conversation.

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That's really interesting to hear. Thank you. Lawrence, I'm going to go to you and to Kenya, which is coming at this issue from a very different way.

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You could Article 34 of the 2010 Constitution that guarantees freedom of the press.

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But is that the reality on the ground? What's going on?

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Thanks a lot.

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Maybe if you allow me, I'd just like to make a comment about about Chile's constitutional process and what they can learn from our from Kenya.

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Of course, the freedom of the press in Kenya is not that the place where we want it to be, but one thing that they can learn from our processes.

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Because when you talk about the constitutional process, they might forget that the media,

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the media freedom being included into that constitution itself.

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Would play a very big role because in the Kenyan context, freedom of the media is included enshrined in the Constitution,

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that helps a lot in securing some of the freedoms that we now enjoy and of having a vibrant media.

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And just to respond to your question. The reality on the ground is not what is enshrined in the Constitution,

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because we we face some challenges as the media in the country and some of these challenges that we face that now bring a problem to our freedoms

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include political influence on both private and state media because we have political interests in ownership of the media companies and all that.

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We also have business interests and marketing interests that make it this some sort of self-censorship by media organisations and in some journalists,

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because they don't want to brush off some of the jeopardise their income because of

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advertisers or to let some people in government angry or some political people angry.

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So those are some of the challenges and also. This very slow or literally investigations that have been happening.

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With regards to journalists who have been attacked or persecuted,

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so we haven't seen much investigations going into that or anyone being charged with that.

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Also this issue of police and security forces.

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Confiscating equipment from journalists or beating up journalists, we've seen that happen,

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especially during the pandemic period, the current pandemic period.

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We saw videos of police beating journalists and pushing them away from stopping them from doing their work,

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and we didn't see much happening with regards to them being prosecuted or taken to court because they were stopping journalists from doing their work,

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which is a protected right, according to our constitution.

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So yes, we have the Article 34 that protects the freedom of the media of freedom of the press.

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But the reality on the ground, we are not where we are supposed to be.

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And why do you think there's such a gap between what's written down and what happens on the street?

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I think I think the biggest challenge maybe would be interests.

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And for me,

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it's political interest in business interests because most of the media companies and the ownership

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of the media companies plays a big role in how we exercise our our duties as journalists.

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So if you do, for instance, you're doing an investigation and then it touches on someone who has a particular political inclination

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that favours the owner of that media you see going to press with that is not something that happens.

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So one of the biggest problems that we face is interests of ownership.

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And Paula, you touched on this really the kind of the pact between the the journalists and the public has got to be clear and transparent,

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and it hasn't been and it isn't done in many countries.

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Listening to Moritz, what do you think you would like to see in Chile to make sure these kind of freedoms are protected and of all, be upheld?

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Yeah, I think us, as Marissa points out in Cannes and Constitution, the inclusion of press freedom in Chilean constitution,

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which is which is something that was that has been discussed and that has been approved

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in the conventional constitution that is writing the new constitution in Chile.

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It is a it is very important.

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I think the debate today is in terms of to what extent and if the state should have a role in ensuring diversity and plurality in,

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for example, media ownership. And I think there are problems, there are challenges in media ownership and there are everywhere in the world now.

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And in the case of Tillet, the National Journalism Award, Maria La Mancha,

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that she has describe it, the media system and Televisa as a room with closed curtains.

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There is a lack of transparency.

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We will benefit for, you know, more information just in terms of how do we practise journalism and how is in which way the ownership,

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the interests of the media owners and the journalists is effectively separated.

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For example, that could be something interesting.

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But having said so, the idea of the state taking a more active part in the media system, as we have seen all around the world, is is a tricky one.

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No, it and it can lead to the suppress of press freedom because the state and again, we have seen it in so many places in the world.

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It may take this measures that have been approved with maybe the best of intentions, but end up being used to crush the press now.

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And I think the same thing happens in order to those measures that try to stop the fake news, for example, the so-called misinformation.

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So I would think we need to be very, very careful.

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But but again, I think the the protection, a strong protection of press freedom needs to also address our our force and its acts.

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I think too expressed a public commitment to really serve this society that is securing that freedom of the press.

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Because one thing I can say on the Journalists Fellowship programme and to journalists generally is you have to advocate for yourselves.

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And that's not the same as campaigning of advocacy, but being clear about why you do what you do,

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how you do it and how the system works and how the process works and how important it is for the kind of functioning of a healthy society.

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It's something that needs to be said outright, quite often where it's just kind of addressed, Paulus points.

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The two things I think are really interesting is.

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The role of the public in helping protect press freedom because they value it, and then also, as very rightly pointed out,

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journalists also need to be truly honest about themselves and take a critical look at their own practises because if they don't,

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they can't ask other people to defend their work if they can't defend it themselves.

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Yes, that's very true because we've seen the times that journalists have been attacked or anything has happened to a journalist,

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we've seen public outcry that people came out and spoke in numbers and see that we need to protect journalists

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because they are the people who give us information about what's happening and this is a constitutional right.

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They should be left to be doing their job. So we have a good we enjoy a relatively good backing from the public,

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which helps a lot in the protection of our freedoms to practise as journalists in the country.

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And where do you think the dangers might lie there,

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which I suppose the question want to ask both of you is you both hype right and

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different ways journalism as a system can be undermined and that's true police actions,

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legal actions. But I would like to know which journalism,

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which kind of journalists in your countries do you feel are under threat if you do come on kind of physical and

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legal and and online pressures that are deliberate that that are done deliberately to try and stop them reporting.

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Yes, so in our context, the journalist that I see being attacked most of the time,

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people who cover politics and also journalists will do investigations.

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We've seen journalists being.

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Beaten by politicians, sometimes being slapped by politicians, being beaten by the politicians themselves, not the security guards.

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Yes, and being pushed shoved away by the guards, or sometimes even a journalist being beaten by by supporters of a political party.

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We've seen instances in Kenya especially and now it's it's a political party.

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It's a campaign season. We've seen journalists being pushed a kiss have been like, I think,

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less than four weeks ago where some journalists were kicked out of the Office of Political Party because

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they're perceived to be from a media that supposedly supports the other political presidential candidate.

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So we see this happening as well in Kenya, and the good thing is people come out to defend the journalist when it happens.

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So there's that awareness that we need to leave these people to do their jobs.

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I think that's quite that's impressive that that people do defend the journalists in these situations,

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but also quite extraordinary that the politicians themselves are slapping the reporters.

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There's one, there's one one one one, one very prominent case of the time, one of the presidential candidates.

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In a press conference, a journalist asked a question and then when he asked him, what's your name?

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And then he said his name and he said, I know why you asked that question,

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because there's a perception that people from that region support this other candidate.

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So this journalist was not the answer. The politician did not respond to the question because he assumed that he's asking that question

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because he comes from the tribe of the present from the presidential candidate was crazy.

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Wow. OK, yes. Think this is the kind of thing of, you know, journalism can be undermined from the top very effectively,

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and that's one of the most dangerous situations to get into. Paula?

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Yes. Yeah. I would like to do well besides to condemn all these practises that that abuse or present a threat to journalism.

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In the case of Chile, the country experienced, as you said,

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mere decades of abuses and restrictions on freedom of expression and journalistic work could I mean,

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that could put people's safety and lives at risk, you know,

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like journalists who lost their lives trying to to inform and some who risk a lot in the poses?

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And I think that as a Chilean media, we need to take responsibility for that history.

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We need to make an explicit commitment, as I said before, to the values that the globe ran over then that were captured by the military dictatorship.

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And at the same time, I think we need to keep our eyes open about.

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How are human rights? Of course, in general and embrace prudent should be protected.

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And journalists need some securities and securities to to fulfil their job.

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And in that time it was very disturbing what happened during the 2019 protests because we had so many complaints of mistreatment of journalists.

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So cases that are that were highlighted by the National Institute of Human Rights in

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Chile and that in many cases affected journalists who were there doing their job.

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We have some very concerning denounces of spying on journalists who have been investigated in the military forces and that needed to be addressed.

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And those are things also create a like all the the the the the the worry of of Chilean society.

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But I think we need to be more very well aware of those threats because there is no

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such place where sadly human rights abuses are left really lessons that last forever.

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I think that the commitment around human rights, it needs to be a permanent fund, a daily wound,

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because if not even the worst and most tragic moments of history may be repeated.

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Thank you. The need for absolutely constant vigilance, which we've seen in many countries around the world.

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Let me kind of end with a kind of question about going forward. What do we do going forward, Paula?

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You talk about innovation and you you believe that innovation can play a role in

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strengthening press freedom that I really want to ask you about in markets in particular.

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Where do you see the younger generations relationship with the media?

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Do you think again they will be willing to stand up for it?

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Do they value it? Do they use it?

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And what do journalists need to do to make sure the kind of the needs and interests of this younger generation are met through journalism as well?

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But Paula, can I start with you? An innovation? Yes, I think innovation should be our primary attitude.

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It should be like the way that we, as journalists, should wake up every day and to think, how, how do I how can I make my work a better quality work,

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a more useful work, a world that can really contribute to the public debate and to inform citizens to a strong democracy?

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And that takes a lot of effort that takes a lot of imagination.

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Sometimes the need to find new solutions for all problems.

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You need to try to find new ways to reach your audience to think, Where is the audience?

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What can I reach the people that I think that I believe will benefit from my work,

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from the information I'm collecting and I need, and I need new ways to collect information to to make my our work worthy.

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I think that's that important innovation takes such an important role and that I think we need to have a more innovative attitude.

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We need more innovation in media. And we have seen that in many cases when there is innovation, there is also a better address of gender issues.

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For example, when there is innovation, there is a better address of social inequalities, which is such a huge part of me.

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So I think my my hope is that old media go on that and that direction.

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And I think it's it's been important in the case of what the next chapter that that we founded with journalists and fans,

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these guys need to end and reinforce that I'm not part of the board anymore,

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but it's doing such a great job in, for example,

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informing about the way the constitutional process is taking place and trying to simplify

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and to better convey and express the complexities of writing a new constitution.

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And I think that's a very good example of how innovation can help us as media as a whole.

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Brilliant. Thank you very much. And Moritz. I think what gives me hope about our situation and a up press freedom in the country is the

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fact that there's a realisation amongst the young people that we need a place that is free.

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Press freedom have to be protected for the sake of having stronger institutions full in the country,

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for a stronger judiciary, for a stronger and to keep in check government and also parliament.

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And this that realisation from the younger people.

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So these these these, they they come out in numbers to defend the media space, the journalists, when they're under attack by anyone.

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So that is what gives me hope.

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And also what gives me hope in our press freedoms is the fact that it is enshrined in the Constitution and also the judiciary upholds that.

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Because I remember in 2018, there was a time that for the government shut down four TV channels,

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four media stations because they covered an event that was done by the opposition leader.

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And after a few days when they went to court, the court suspended the button and the government had to bring back this,

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this media stations to continue broadcasting. So that is what gives me hope.

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The stronger institutions and the fact that young people realise that press freedom has to be protected for the betterment of the country.

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But can I add something to what Morris says about the importance of institutions?

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Of course, the importance of an independence and justice?

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Please do. It is. It is also so important so, so relevant.

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And I think that the fact that in Teyla,

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in the cases where journalists have pulled this denounces about either abuse or threat overstaying the justice has taken

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care of the denounces and now they need justice needs to to to offer to make people accountable for those threats.

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Because, as Mary says, we need that, that institutions to do the work.

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And I would also like to add a tiny thing about innovation that I mentioned new media about.

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I think traditional legacy media also can benefit a lot from innovation.

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I'm thinking about the radio that I work for a rival but a diva and also the podcast area that

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that we create there and how podcast has allowed us to include a more diverse diversity of voices,

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more women. We are reaching young people.

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So there is also this space for innovation, and it's so important all across the media, new media, legacy media, traditional media.

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We can all benefit from it. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you both for joining us today.

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Our guest today. But journalists fellows Paola Polina Tapia and Moritz Onyango, thank you for having us.

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Thank you. And thank you, Paula. Thank you for the invitation and to the institute, of course.

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Thank you. Make sure you follow our podcast channel on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

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