Welcome to the Future of Journalism, a podcast from the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism.
Amir Silva, deputy director of the institute and director of the Journalists Fellowship Programme on 3rd of May.
Each year,
the World Monks Press Freedom Day to show support for journalists whose ability to report freely is curtailed through harassment and intimidation.
Online security threats, financial pressures, legal threats, as well as physical threats and the stark dangers of reporting from conflict zones.
The most recent Press Freedom Index by Reporters Without Borders found that in almost three quarters of countries,
journalism is constrained, seriously impeded or blocked outright.
The day is also an opportunity to remember those journalists who have lost their lives due to them their work.
The Committee to Protect Journalists has confirmed that this year alone,
15 journalists have been killed in the nature of their work through covering the war in Ukraine.
Narco trafficking in Mexico. And civil unrest in Haiti and elsewhere.
We run the on this fellowship programme at the Reuters Institute, highlights some of these issues and crucially,
to bring journalists from around the world reporting incredibly difficult,
incredibly fast changing situations to talk to each other and to us about what can be done.
And today, I'm really pleased to have two of our current fellows with us, Paula Molina Tapia from Chile and Maurice Onyango from Kenya.
Hello, Mira. Welcome. And Maurice, welcome. Hello.
Thank you so much for having us today. You're very welcome.
Paula co-founded the News Chat Bot The Bot, which received the Journalism Award for Digital Excellence UAH,
one of the country's top journalism prises,
and she hosts a weekly Chilean female only political primetime TV programme and has worked as a BBC News Mundo contributor since 2014 as well.
And Burrows is an Award-Winning freelance multimedia journalist and documentary filmmaker based in Nairobi.
He's written for National Geographic, Global Investigative Journalism Network and Africa.com, amongst others,
and he's produced documentaries for a wide range of outlets, including the National Geographic Africa Uncensored and in TV World.
We're very, very lucky to have them with us. Paula, let me start with you.
Chile experienced a very deep social unrest in 2019, and today it's writing a new constitution that's quite extraordinary to watch from the outside.
What role do you think the freedom of press plays in this debate? Well, a freedom of express and the debate around a free press.
It's one of the important topics in debate in the constitutional process.
And I think this has highlighted some of the ongoing debate in Chile about
how much do we need and how much do we need to protect freedom of expression.
But at the same time, to which extent we as journalists, we who value journalism should be addressed.
So the some of our flaws as communicators, some of those barriers that have impetus to fulfil our mission,
I mean, in terms of diversity, in terms of exclusion,
in terms of being able to really read the needs of Chilean society and to express them in a way that can really inform the public debate.
So I think those two or aspects are in the debate today.
Freedom of the press and freedom of expression, of course, has an important role in our constitutional process.
And I think it has opened a debate about the need for a stronger freedom of
press to protect freedom of press as the basis for other rights in our society.
But at the same time, it has opened a conversation and it should be.
I think it should be an ongoing conversation about which are our flaws as media,
which our what are our problems in terms of diversity, in terms of women leadership,
in terms of being able to read the needs of our society and to be able to express them
in the public debate in order to have a more healthy political democratic debate.
So I think those two aspects are playing a role in our constitutional debate.
And what understanding do you think there is in the public and those playing the key roles in writing the
Constitution on how important the media can be should be because Chile has gone from an authoritarian regime with,
you know, kind of incredibly strict controls on press freedom to one that's emerging and is now really
quite vibrant in this kind of big civil society in a protest movements across the country.
I'm just wondering where you see journalism fitting in that? Yeah,
that's a that's a very interesting question because I think one of the of the problems for Chile was our our our own lack of awareness about
about the enormous amounts of a lot of problems that the society was dealing with and the need for a better and more secure health system,
a more egalitarian educational system, a better provision of some basic securities,
and that the fact that the media was not capable to see that coming.
That points, in my opinion, to a flaw in our practises that we need to address that we can address.
I think with complete respect to freedom of the press.
But I think we also need to understand that.
People may not feel or some people may need to be reassured to understand better,
which is the role of the media, which is the role of the press and why it is important.
A free press in the country because in order to understand that, I think we will have a better support for press freedom.
And I'm seeing this in the context of a of a constitutional process that is trying to to better balance the the,
of course, the freedom that is available for us as a society, but also a stronger public provision of some basic needs.
I'm talking about again health, education and retirement and retirement system that doesn't rely so much on private and market and free market.
So in this balance between how much the estate can secure for TV and society to be a democratic and a stable nation,
and how important is to value democracy? I think this is the the place where our more important discussions are taking place.
And of course, freedom of press is at the centre or is part of that conversation.
That's really interesting to hear. Thank you. Lawrence, I'm going to go to you and to Kenya, which is coming at this issue from a very different way.
You could Article 34 of the 2010 Constitution that guarantees freedom of the press.
But is that the reality on the ground? What's going on?
Thanks a lot.
Maybe if you allow me, I'd just like to make a comment about about Chile's constitutional process and what they can learn from our from Kenya.
Of course, the freedom of the press in Kenya is not that the place where we want it to be, but one thing that they can learn from our processes.
Because when you talk about the constitutional process, they might forget that the media,
the media freedom being included into that constitution itself.
Would play a very big role because in the Kenyan context, freedom of the media is included enshrined in the Constitution,
that helps a lot in securing some of the freedoms that we now enjoy and of having a vibrant media.
And just to respond to your question. The reality on the ground is not what is enshrined in the Constitution,
because we we face some challenges as the media in the country and some of these challenges that we face that now bring a problem to our freedoms
include political influence on both private and state media because we have political interests in ownership of the media companies and all that.
We also have business interests and marketing interests that make it this some sort of self-censorship by media organisations and in some journalists,
because they don't want to brush off some of the jeopardise their income because of
advertisers or to let some people in government angry or some political people angry.
So those are some of the challenges and also. This very slow or literally investigations that have been happening.
With regards to journalists who have been attacked or persecuted,
so we haven't seen much investigations going into that or anyone being charged with that.
Also this issue of police and security forces.
Confiscating equipment from journalists or beating up journalists, we've seen that happen,
especially during the pandemic period, the current pandemic period.
We saw videos of police beating journalists and pushing them away from stopping them from doing their work,
and we didn't see much happening with regards to them being prosecuted or taken to court because they were stopping journalists from doing their work,
which is a protected right, according to our constitution.
So yes, we have the Article 34 that protects the freedom of the media of freedom of the press.
But the reality on the ground, we are not where we are supposed to be.
And why do you think there's such a gap between what's written down and what happens on the street?
I think I think the biggest challenge maybe would be interests.
And for me,
it's political interest in business interests because most of the media companies and the ownership
of the media companies plays a big role in how we exercise our our duties as journalists.
So if you do, for instance, you're doing an investigation and then it touches on someone who has a particular political inclination
that favours the owner of that media you see going to press with that is not something that happens.
So one of the biggest problems that we face is interests of ownership.
And Paula, you touched on this really the kind of the pact between the the journalists and the public has got to be clear and transparent,
and it hasn't been and it isn't done in many countries.
Listening to Moritz, what do you think you would like to see in Chile to make sure these kind of freedoms are protected and of all, be upheld?
Yeah, I think us, as Marissa points out in Cannes and Constitution, the inclusion of press freedom in Chilean constitution,
which is which is something that was that has been discussed and that has been approved
in the conventional constitution that is writing the new constitution in Chile.
It is a it is very important.
I think the debate today is in terms of to what extent and if the state should have a role in ensuring diversity and plurality in,
for example, media ownership. And I think there are problems, there are challenges in media ownership and there are everywhere in the world now.
And in the case of Tillet, the National Journalism Award, Maria La Mancha,
that she has describe it, the media system and Televisa as a room with closed curtains.
There is a lack of transparency.
We will benefit for, you know, more information just in terms of how do we practise journalism and how is in which way the ownership,
the interests of the media owners and the journalists is effectively separated.
For example, that could be something interesting.
But having said so, the idea of the state taking a more active part in the media system, as we have seen all around the world, is is a tricky one.
No, it and it can lead to the suppress of press freedom because the state and again, we have seen it in so many places in the world.
It may take this measures that have been approved with maybe the best of intentions, but end up being used to crush the press now.
And I think the same thing happens in order to those measures that try to stop the fake news, for example, the so-called misinformation.
So I would think we need to be very, very careful.
But but again, I think the the protection, a strong protection of press freedom needs to also address our our force and its acts.
I think too expressed a public commitment to really serve this society that is securing that freedom of the press.
Because one thing I can say on the Journalists Fellowship programme and to journalists generally is you have to advocate for yourselves.
And that's not the same as campaigning of advocacy, but being clear about why you do what you do,
how you do it and how the system works and how the process works and how important it is for the kind of functioning of a healthy society.
It's something that needs to be said outright, quite often where it's just kind of addressed, Paulus points.
The two things I think are really interesting is.
The role of the public in helping protect press freedom because they value it, and then also, as very rightly pointed out,
journalists also need to be truly honest about themselves and take a critical look at their own practises because if they don't,
they can't ask other people to defend their work if they can't defend it themselves.
Yes, that's very true because we've seen the times that journalists have been attacked or anything has happened to a journalist,
we've seen public outcry that people came out and spoke in numbers and see that we need to protect journalists
because they are the people who give us information about what's happening and this is a constitutional right.
They should be left to be doing their job. So we have a good we enjoy a relatively good backing from the public,
which helps a lot in the protection of our freedoms to practise as journalists in the country.
And where do you think the dangers might lie there,
which I suppose the question want to ask both of you is you both hype right and
different ways journalism as a system can be undermined and that's true police actions,
legal actions. But I would like to know which journalism,
which kind of journalists in your countries do you feel are under threat if you do come on kind of physical and
legal and and online pressures that are deliberate that that are done deliberately to try and stop them reporting.
Yes, so in our context, the journalist that I see being attacked most of the time,
people who cover politics and also journalists will do investigations.
We've seen journalists being.
Beaten by politicians, sometimes being slapped by politicians, being beaten by the politicians themselves, not the security guards.
Yes, and being pushed shoved away by the guards, or sometimes even a journalist being beaten by by supporters of a political party.
We've seen instances in Kenya especially and now it's it's a political party.
It's a campaign season. We've seen journalists being pushed a kiss have been like, I think,
less than four weeks ago where some journalists were kicked out of the Office of Political Party because
they're perceived to be from a media that supposedly supports the other political presidential candidate.
So we see this happening as well in Kenya, and the good thing is people come out to defend the journalist when it happens.
So there's that awareness that we need to leave these people to do their jobs.
I think that's quite that's impressive that that people do defend the journalists in these situations,
but also quite extraordinary that the politicians themselves are slapping the reporters.
There's one, there's one one one one, one very prominent case of the time, one of the presidential candidates.
In a press conference, a journalist asked a question and then when he asked him, what's your name?
And then he said his name and he said, I know why you asked that question,
because there's a perception that people from that region support this other candidate.
So this journalist was not the answer. The politician did not respond to the question because he assumed that he's asking that question
because he comes from the tribe of the present from the presidential candidate was crazy.
Wow. OK, yes. Think this is the kind of thing of, you know, journalism can be undermined from the top very effectively,
and that's one of the most dangerous situations to get into. Paula?
Yes. Yeah. I would like to do well besides to condemn all these practises that that abuse or present a threat to journalism.
In the case of Chile, the country experienced, as you said,
mere decades of abuses and restrictions on freedom of expression and journalistic work could I mean,
that could put people's safety and lives at risk, you know,
like journalists who lost their lives trying to to inform and some who risk a lot in the poses?
And I think that as a Chilean media, we need to take responsibility for that history.
We need to make an explicit commitment, as I said before, to the values that the globe ran over then that were captured by the military dictatorship.
And at the same time, I think we need to keep our eyes open about.
How are human rights? Of course, in general and embrace prudent should be protected.
And journalists need some securities and securities to to fulfil their job.
And in that time it was very disturbing what happened during the 2019 protests because we had so many complaints of mistreatment of journalists.
So cases that are that were highlighted by the National Institute of Human Rights in
Chile and that in many cases affected journalists who were there doing their job.
We have some very concerning denounces of spying on journalists who have been investigated in the military forces and that needed to be addressed.
And those are things also create a like all the the the the the the worry of of Chilean society.
But I think we need to be more very well aware of those threats because there is no
such place where sadly human rights abuses are left really lessons that last forever.
I think that the commitment around human rights, it needs to be a permanent fund, a daily wound,
because if not even the worst and most tragic moments of history may be repeated.
Thank you. The need for absolutely constant vigilance, which we've seen in many countries around the world.
Let me kind of end with a kind of question about going forward. What do we do going forward, Paula?
You talk about innovation and you you believe that innovation can play a role in
strengthening press freedom that I really want to ask you about in markets in particular.
Where do you see the younger generations relationship with the media?
Do you think again they will be willing to stand up for it?
Do they value it? Do they use it?
And what do journalists need to do to make sure the kind of the needs and interests of this younger generation are met through journalism as well?
But Paula, can I start with you? An innovation? Yes, I think innovation should be our primary attitude.
It should be like the way that we, as journalists, should wake up every day and to think, how, how do I how can I make my work a better quality work,
a more useful work, a world that can really contribute to the public debate and to inform citizens to a strong democracy?
And that takes a lot of effort that takes a lot of imagination.
Sometimes the need to find new solutions for all problems.
You need to try to find new ways to reach your audience to think, Where is the audience?
What can I reach the people that I think that I believe will benefit from my work,
from the information I'm collecting and I need, and I need new ways to collect information to to make my our work worthy.
I think that's that important innovation takes such an important role and that I think we need to have a more innovative attitude.
We need more innovation in media. And we have seen that in many cases when there is innovation, there is also a better address of gender issues.
For example, when there is innovation, there is a better address of social inequalities, which is such a huge part of me.
So I think my my hope is that old media go on that and that direction.
And I think it's it's been important in the case of what the next chapter that that we founded with journalists and fans,
these guys need to end and reinforce that I'm not part of the board anymore,
but it's doing such a great job in, for example,
informing about the way the constitutional process is taking place and trying to simplify
and to better convey and express the complexities of writing a new constitution.
And I think that's a very good example of how innovation can help us as media as a whole.
Brilliant. Thank you very much. And Moritz. I think what gives me hope about our situation and a up press freedom in the country is the
fact that there's a realisation amongst the young people that we need a place that is free.
Press freedom have to be protected for the sake of having stronger institutions full in the country,
for a stronger judiciary, for a stronger and to keep in check government and also parliament.
And this that realisation from the younger people.
So these these these, they they come out in numbers to defend the media space, the journalists, when they're under attack by anyone.
So that is what gives me hope.
And also what gives me hope in our press freedoms is the fact that it is enshrined in the Constitution and also the judiciary upholds that.
Because I remember in 2018, there was a time that for the government shut down four TV channels,
four media stations because they covered an event that was done by the opposition leader.
And after a few days when they went to court, the court suspended the button and the government had to bring back this,
this media stations to continue broadcasting. So that is what gives me hope.
The stronger institutions and the fact that young people realise that press freedom has to be protected for the betterment of the country.
But can I add something to what Morris says about the importance of institutions?
Of course, the importance of an independence and justice?
Please do. It is. It is also so important so, so relevant.
And I think that the fact that in Teyla,
in the cases where journalists have pulled this denounces about either abuse or threat overstaying the justice has taken
care of the denounces and now they need justice needs to to to offer to make people accountable for those threats.
Because, as Mary says, we need that, that institutions to do the work.
And I would also like to add a tiny thing about innovation that I mentioned new media about.
I think traditional legacy media also can benefit a lot from innovation.
I'm thinking about the radio that I work for a rival but a diva and also the podcast area that
that we create there and how podcast has allowed us to include a more diverse diversity of voices,
more women. We are reaching young people.
So there is also this space for innovation, and it's so important all across the media, new media, legacy media, traditional media.
We can all benefit from it. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you both for joining us today.
Our guest today. But journalists fellows Paola Polina Tapia and Moritz Onyango, thank you for having us.
Thank you. And thank you, Paula. Thank you for the invitation and to the institute, of course.
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