Welcome to the Future of Journalism, a podcast from the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism.
I'm Vitaly Mukherjee. I'm director of journalists programs at the Institute.
And today's conversation is a difficult one, but an important one.
On 24th February 20, 22, a year ago, Russia invaded Ukraine.
Since then, thousands of civilians and military personnel have been killed.
Cities have turned to rubble and essential infrastructure has been destroyed.
Perhaps a baton from day one of this invasion, where the human and infrastructural cost was extremely high.
Millions of Ukrainians have been displaced. Their lives have been upended.
And it has caused a migration crisis of sorts from that country into other countries.
According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, the CPI 15 journalists were killed in Ukraine through last year.
The situation for news media remains quite tense. It remains challenging, to say the least.
Joining us today to talk about the impact on journalism from the war in Ukraine is Olga Tokarczuk.
She is an independent journalist from Ukraine. She's currently a journalist fellow at our institute.
And her work has been featured in publications worldwide, including Time, The Washington Post and NPR.
Olga is also a non-resident fellow at the Centre for European Policy Analysis.
She specialises in disinformation, research and in international relations as well.
Olga, it's been a pleasure to have had you at the Institute and onto this conversation as well.
Thank you so much. Italia Thank you for having me. Let me start with a little bit of perhaps taking a few steps back.
You know, it seems like a year and it seems like document after document just detailing the level of this crisis,
the level of the humanitarian damage that's happened.
But I want to, if you can, for you to walk us back to the very early days of when this invasion began.
Where were you at that time? What was happening with your journalistic life and what were your early thoughts really when this began?
Yes. Thank you for this. You know, it's very difficult to to actually think about what happened a year ago.
And it's almost unbelievable that already a year has passed since Russia invaded Ukraine in a full scale basis.
And of course, there were so many challenges for Ukrainian journalists and for me in this
year and for all Ukrainians who are still suffering under Russian occupation,
Russian bombardment, Russian targeting of civilian population.
So speaking about myself, you know, I was working as a freelance correspondent for international media when Russia launched its full scale invasion.
In particular, I was reporting for the Spanish news agency AFP.
And, you know, I've been reporting about Russian troops build up to the Ukrainian border for several months, already started in late 2021.
So it wasn't a complete surprise for me when Russia launched its full scale invasion because it was already in the air.
There were warnings from foreign governments and intelligence agencies about an imminent invasion.
So, in fact, because of the fact that I was reporting tonight, I was speaking to Ukrainian officials,
I was speaking to foreign officials, to diplomats from different countries.
I expect that Russia might launch that invasion.
I didn't envision what scale it would be.
Actually, it was surprising that it was such a huge scale. That was surprising for me.
But in a way, I took precautions to protect my family. And I left the capital of Ukraine several days before the invasion started.
We moved to the west of Ukraine to meet my relatives.
In one of my motivations, in addition to protecting my family, my young daughter was that that I,
as a journalist maybe will be more able to report on what is happening if I am in a safe place,
because it was obvious that Russians would not easily get to the west of Ukraine.
So I thought, you know, I will be there in a place which has Internet connection where I'm safe from bombs if something happens.
So I will be able to report. And that's actually what happened that, you know, immediately after the invasion began on February 24th,
I woke up at 6:00 in the morning, check in, check the news.
And I knew that Russia started the invasion. I knew that there were explosions heard in Kiev.
And I told myself, now get to work.
And I started to receive a lot of requests from different media all over the world to comment on what is happening, to report.
And I told myself, you accept every single request and you speak to everyone because you have to let the
world know what is happening in your country and what Russia is doing to your country.
So that's how my first weeks and months since the start of the first of the full scale invasion go, I was working 12 hours per day, writing pieces,
reporting, giving commands, giving interviews to a media from all corners of the globe Africa, Australia, Europe, Asia, America, everywhere.
And anyone who's followed your work, Olga, has seen how vocal you've been about the impact on journalists,
the irreparable loss of life for many, you know, in cases of this reportage from Ukraine and I remember a conversation with you
earlier where you made the point about how for many journalists in Ukraine,
there is no there is no choice or any option. You become a war reporter overnight.
You know, your life has changed and that's all you're going to report on for that period.
Are there stories that stand out that you think are important for readers and listeners, too, to look at?
Did you to understand better the situation as it stands for journalists in Ukraine?
Yes. Well, that's definitely my case. You know, it was not my choice to be a war reporter.
I never went to the frontline and ever had this dream, as many my colleague of my colleagues had to report from a conflict zone.
So I was reporting on international news. And in the last two years I was reporting on Ukrainian politics for international news outlets.
But I was never a war reporter. I didn't have this ambition.
And, you know, and I didn't feel like going to the frontline and reporting from the front line.
So I chose to be and the background, let's say, still remain in Ukraine,
but not go to the most dangerous places or go there when they become less dangerous.
So after the occupation of Kiev to leave region, I went there to report about the rebuilding effort.
So it wasn't a choice to be a war reporter, but this was something that was imposed on me by this Russian invasion of Ukraine.
And many Ukrainian journalists found themselves in the similar situation.
So they might have reported on culture or on sports or on social issues before.
But since the Russian full scale invasion, the only important thing to report was was war.
So we all try to contribute in the ways we could.
And speaking about, you know, the impact on my colleagues, of course,
the most kind of visible and heartbreaking impact was that so many of my colleagues have been killed in this war.
Some of them were killed in the frontline. Some of them were killed by Russian missiles and their homes, like in Mariupol.
And cameraman and photographer Victor Dando for my former colleague from Ukrainian television.
Cameraman of any such. He became the first victim of this war among journalists.
He was killed by a Russian missile in Kiev in early March, close to a TV tower when Russians attacked the TV tower in Kiev.
And then, of course, a lot of journalists who lost their lives.
Reporting from the front line in Kiev region during the occupation, during heavy battles there in March and April, such as Max Levin,
one of the most famous and experienced photographers who reported on the war in Ukraine since 2014,
who survived really very heavy battles such as a battle live in Isla Weiss back in 2014.
But he did not survive the occupation of Kiev region by Russia in April in March of last year.
And it's almost been two really seminal events that have changed people's relationship with news over the last few years on their school read.
And then there was the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Some of our own research at Reuters shows that there is a level of exhaustion when people consume this news.
But when you speak anecdotally to journalists within newsrooms, they actually see something different additional,
which is that perhaps people's attention has been drawn more keenly towards news coverage after these after these two events.
One of our own fellows said, give me a CV and I hope I'm pronouncing the name accurately.
Who's been editor in chief of Ukraine's Pravda, actually said that people who are living in areas under Russian occupation are looking for this.
They're looking for access to reliable information.
Has the relationship of the Ukrainian public changed towards reporters and reportage and journalism generally, given the events of the last year?
Yes, absolutely. I think people started to appreciate more the work of journalists,
and it not only concerns the people in the Russian occupied territories, but also in the rest of Ukraine's territory.
Obviously, one of the first things that Russians do when they occupied Ukrainian regions, they switched off Ukrainian media.
So they you know, they jammed Internet, they jammed mobile signal and they disconnected Ukrainian radio and TV stations from broadcasting.
So people didn't really have access to reliable information.
And for example, like people who were on the Russian occupation in Kiev and New York region for more than one months,
they were told by Russians that, you know, has already fallen,
that, you know, the Ukrainian government has been toppled and they only found out that actually
was lie and that didn't happen after the liberation of this territories.
And of course, people in person that has been under Russian occupation for many months until its liberation in autumn of last year,
they had it even more difficult. You know, they only had access to Russian propaganda.
And it's not even media to Russian propaganda, TV stations, to Russian propaganda channels.
And they had completely no idea about what was happening on the rest of Ukrainian territory.
They had difficulty to get in touch with, you know, their friends and relatives in other parts of Ukraine.
And, of course, they were very thirsty for the information, for reliable journalism, for reliable news, to understand what is really happening.
But as I said, even on the territories of Ukraine that were not occupied,
I think people kind of resort the importance of journalists, especially in documentation of Russian war crimes.
Journalists were often the first to discover what has happened on the occupied territories.
Journalists who are among the first to report about Russian atrocities in Georgia,
about all the civilians who have been killed and executed there by Russian soldiers.
Journalists later did a lot of very important investigations, collecting the evidence,
satellite images and, you know, other sorts of evidence to confirm that indeed,
the Russians committed these crimes after Russia initially denied and said this, all this images were fabricated, were fake.
So I think that, yes, absolutely, the audience started appreciating journalists more, but also questioning and, you know,
approach and critically the work of journalists, because there were also cases when a journalist behaviour raised questions.
There were instances when, for example,
journalists reported from a position of the Ukrainian armed forces or from a defence industry facility like a factory that was repairing tanks.
And then this objects were hit by Russians, by Russian missiles in the following days and there were questions raised.
Did journalists disclose the location of the sensitive objects?
Did journalist actually exposed them to being targeted?
So there is also a lot of scrutiny and I think a lot of responsibility,
additional responsibility that is added to the work of journalists in the condition of war.
Absolutely. And I think it's interesting you say that,
because there are any number of such similar episodes that have occurred across different parts of the world when,
you know, it was a conflict zone area and journalists had to tread a very, very careful line.
I want to talk more about that, the impact on the industry itself.
But before that, any any practicalities or practical challenges for for reporters covering the events of the last 12 months,
also because there is a similar threat to it, you know,
in terms of reporters covering war in Afghanistan or parts of Africa, safe passage is an issue.
Support from your central newsroom is an issue.
But what were the sort of unique experiences in terms of practical challenges for reporters in Ukraine?
Well, I think that Ukrainian and international journalists, they can move almost, you know, unhinged and limited,
without any obstacles on their work on the territories that are controlled by the Ukrainian government.
While, of course, it is difficult,
if not absolutely impossible on the Russian occupied territories because journalists are not allowed to get there, they are also under threat if.
If they work there. So it's very difficult to get the information out of the occupied territories.
What is actually happening? There are people who stay there. They face persecution, they first torture, they face sometimes rape.
And they are being executed by Russian soldiers, by Russian occupying forces.
So they might not want to talk to journalists even remotely,
even anonymously and very often to the fullest extent of what is happening on
the occupied territories only emerges after the liberation of this territory.
So that's one of the challenges. Then, of course, there are the challenges, especially for a Ukrainian journalist.
Initially, in the first weeks and months of war,
there was a shortage of protective equipment that was resolved and with the help also that was coming from international organisations,
international journalists, unions. So now that is not an issue.
There are training courses for Ukrainian journalists that help them to navigate to work in a hostile environment.
And actually many Ukrainian journalists already had this experience because the war didn't start in 2022.
The war started in 2014, and many Ukrainian journalists have already reported from the war and had the experience of working in a conflict zone.
But speaking more broadly, you know, the challenges that have been added to the media in general in Ukraine since 2022 is,
of course, a huge rise, a huge drop in advertising revenues for the media.
This is a crisis that Ukrainian media has never experienced before.
Advertisement. Revenues fell by 81% for TV, 79 for print, and 61% for radio.
This is an information coming from the Ukrainian advertisement coalition.
And of course, under these conditions, many Ukrainian media had to rethink their business model,
had to rethink how do they get funding, maybe switching more to relying on funding coming from abroad,
from donor agencies, and they had to rethink their subscription model in the situation when many Ukrainians found
themselves in economic hardship and were not able to pay for the subscription anymore.
And unfortunately, it also led to many media, especially regional media, going bankrupt.
So more than 200 regional media in Ukraine had to shut down because of the economic concerns,
but also because some of them happened to be on the Russian occupation where they couldn't operate normally or their equipment
has been looted and or destroyed when the region where they worked was for some period of time under Russian occupation.
This also becomes a double edged sword when you look at it through the lens of press
freedom and how much space there is to criticise things within within the region,
isn't it, Olga? For instance, there was a loosely held coalition of many Ukrainian channels,
which then has come under some sort of scrutiny for not being as independent as they want to.
I understand there is a law being considered for later in this year that might clamp down a bit more on media freedom.
You know, give us a little bit of a contrast. The financial distress, as you highlight, is quite clear.
But has there been an impact on how much freedom journalists have in terms of looking at things and criticising things?
Well, we have to understand that Ukraine is a democratic country with a very vibrant media scene,
and it was the case before the Russian full scale invasion.
So while there are TV stations that are run by the oligarchs and there is a public broadcaster.
But there are also a wide array of media that are independent or that are not controlled by,
you know, people with political affiliations or rich oligarchs.
So there is a possibility still, I would argue,
for many Ukrainians to get their news from an unbiased source and also to get their news
from different sources and to compare the information they receive from different sources.
So there is no mainstream one line of reporting.
While, of course, there are issues with this United TV marathon that you mentioned.
Just to explain a little bit of a background that in in in the very first of in the very first days of war,
several Ukrainian TV channels, most of them belonged to oligarchs.
They launched this so-called United TV marathon.
So they united their newsrooms to report about Russian invasion.
And it was difficult to do that like to do that for every TV station separately because Russian troops are moving towards Kiev.
It was unclear, you know, how long people will stand, will it stand?
And many journalists actually fled, believe like I did.
So they they moved out of the capital to save their families, to bring them to safety.
And many of my colleagues moved abroad, especially female colleagues.
They they took their children and they just fled abroad. They became refugees.
Journalists, after all, are humans, as all the others and some of them prioritise their safety over their work in their reporting.
So in these conditions, you know, of the shortage of staff, very big uncertainty over what would be happening.
It was decided by several TV channels to unite the forces and, you know, to create this united newsroom to a to report on what has been happening.
And while it was a really good idea in the first weeks and months of the invasion,
because it also helped Ukraine to repel a lot of disinformation that was circulating around a lot of Russian attempts to,
you know, poison the information space to sow panic in the Ukrainian society,
to somehow prevent Ukrainian resistance from happening and gain in force.
And this United TV Madison also became a source, a target of criticism as as time went by, because more and more,
the reporting was very much in line with the official government's position, which is understandable in the conditions of war when media operate,
let's be frank, differently, especially if we are speaking about the national media or, you know,
nationals and citizens of this country are working for this media and they care about their country survival.
So of course their reporting would be very different in a condition of war than in a condition of just normal life.
But there are concerns now about the government, let's say maybe not control,
but let's say government influence over the content of this marathon that very rarely there is any criticism or a second opinion.
And also about the presence of some questionable figures in this marathon,
some journalists and presenters who are considered as not really professional,
maybe who displayed some pro-Russian attitudes before or worked on TV stations that were owned by oligarchs with connections to Russia.
So there are a lot of controversies about that. Yes.
One more reason to reflect back on this period for journalists and journalism generally,
although we see the capacity of this war to have been fought online and offline, as you said, it was it was tremendous.
This was so nami of disinformation that that hit across social media platforms and otherwise.
Is it your sense over the last few months, though,
that people generally and readers and viewers have become more adept at sifting through disinformation,
as also have journalists and organisations themselves become sharper at cutting through a lot of that disinformation and false news?
Well, I think Ukraine has developed immunity to Russian disinformation and propaganda long time ago,
because Ukraine has been bombarded by that since 2014, at the very least.
And overall, this year, there were a lot of initiatives in Ukraine actually exposing disinformation,
such as stop fake and others fact check initiatives.
And, you know, and then the debate about like how disinformation operators act and, you know, what techniques they use and how it works.
It has been there in Ukraine. So I would argue that they raise awareness about the dangerous of Russian propaganda and disinformation,
and there is immunity towards it also because, you know, Ukrainians leave this experience of war.
They leave the experience of being bombed, of being child, of being killed, of being tortured.
Of Russia attacking civilian targets and destroying energy infrastructure.
So if you have that live in experience, how can you possibly believe in the Russian disinformation narrative saying that, you know,
Ukraine is needs to be the Nazi fighters or that Ukrainian civilians actually are to blame in the, you know,
for what is happening because they behaved in a way that somehow justifies all this atrocities that Russia commits.
So being a Ukrainian being inside Ukraine and living through this experience, well,
it's it's impossible to believe in Russian disinformation and Russian propaganda anymore.
And I think the Russians, they themselves, the Kremlin, they realise that that's why they,
I would say, channelled their efforts to target audiences outside of Ukraine,
to target audiences in the West with a goal to undermine support for Ukraine,
because Ukraine is really heavily reliant on the support of the Western countries, both military, financial, political support.
And also increasingly,
I would say that Russian disinformation is targeting audiences in the global south because Russia wants to preserve its status as a global power,
it still portrays itself as an alternative to the imperialist west, as it says,
although Russia itself is an empire and its war in Ukraine is an imperial war of conquest.
However, I would I would argue that, you know, this efforts in the West have largely failed in the last year,
also because because of a very good Ukrainian communications strategy, because of,
you know, very efficient communication by President Zelensky, by the Ukrainian government,
but also because of very efficient communication of many Ukrainian grassroot actors taken to Twitter, taken to all the platforms, producing viral,
humorous content, ridiculing Russians, exposing the absurdity of their disinformation and exposing the,
you know, the falsehoods in their claims about Ukraine.
So I would say that largely thanks to this Russian disinformation effort in the West has failed as well.
But I don't think Russian disinformation effort is failing in the global south.
And that's, I think,
where we should be look into because Russia uses that anti-Western sentiment and its deception in presenting itself as an alternative to NATO,
to the imperialist West, as a tool, as a very useful narrative to reach those audiences,
to build cooperation with those countries, to continue trading with them.
Like with India, for example, with Brazil,
Russia receives a lot of revenues because of of its trade with these countries and the revenues that help it fund this war against Ukraine.
And disinformation is a tool in, you know, in keeping in maintaining this war machine and keeping it afloat.
So we should be very mindful of that,
and we should be looking into this efforts to reach the audiences and change the public opinion outside of the Western world.
There is certainly something to be explored there.
And even perhaps though the back and forth in terms of sanctions that are imposed and announced by Western countries,
but then other sort of backdoor agreements that that seem like just two steps back
rather than two steps forward situation for both the global north and the global south.
Much of the focus up until now, Olga has of course been on, you know, strategic efforts by some of the Western countries.
Trees where they themselves perhaps crossed the Rubicon in their own minds by providing arms and ammunition.
But how does this rule extend to the broader journalistic community across the world?
How do you think there can be better support or increased support for for Ukrainian journalists?
Well, as I mentioned, you know, the support of international journalists organisations has been fundamental in providing Ukrainian journalists
with protective equipment in the first weeks and months of war when there was a shortage of such equipment.
And that still goes on. There are several foundations in Ukraine that receive this aid and then distribute it to Ukrainian journalists in need.
And, you know, I think in order to both keep Ukrainian focus and also counter Russian disinformation,
the presence of journalists on the ground is crucial.
So probably the most important thing is how journalists from other countries can support Ukraine is to be present on the ground in Ukraine,
is to continue reporting in Ukraine, which is now, of course, is done in very difficult conditions, in addition to, you know,
the threats associated to the war and the risk of being hit by a missile or a mortar or a shell.
There are constraints related to the disruption of electricity supply that Russia is intentionally imposing on Ukraine by bombarding its energy grid.
So very often there is no Internet or there is no electricity.
And journalists also, it makes their reporting very difficult.
They have to operate in in harsh conditions of war, in conditions where they might have little access or.
No access to this basic needs that need that, you know, that that has to be there for them to do their job.
They are still winter in Ukraine. So harsh winter conditions.
But despite all that, I see that, you know, there are still journalists, international journalists reporting from Ukraine.
Now, because of the anniversary, there is a renewed spike in interest towards Ukraine.
Everyone is back. All the international reporters are back to Ukraine to kind of reflect and sum up what was this past year and,
you know, what's the situation currently?
You know, I think like and I really want to praise a work done by my colleagues from different countries in Ukraine,
because I think in this past year they've really managed not only to tell the story of the war on the Ukraine,
that's Russia and least, but also tell the story of Ukraine to tell this story of this country that has been democratising itself,
it has been transforming itself in the past 30 years to tell the story of the Ukrainian people who has shown have shown incredible resilience,
resistance, vitality, you know, creativity and willingness to fight for the values that they share with democratic countries.
So I really want to commend this effort of my colleagues from all over the world,
have done a tremendous job to tell the story of Ukraine, not only of the pain and suffering,
but also of courage, of bravery and of the fight for what is good and for what is,
you know, the progressive and civilised, for the human rights, for democracy, for freedom.
Yes. Well, final question, then, Olga.
You know, Gideon Rose, the author of How Wars and talks about two outcomes for most wars, as we've documented them through history.
You know, either there is a clear outcome where there is a winner or loser or there is some kind of mutually agreed peace,
negotiated, be exhausted, stalemate.
I think what it doesn't cover is the the mental and physical exhaustion for journalists who are documenting things as as they as they unfold.
What are your hopes for journalists and journalism in Ukraine over a longer term basis?
As you mentioned, many tectonic shifts have happened by way of the financial crisis and other changes.
How do you think it will emerge at the other end?
Well, you know how it will emerge for journalists and how journalists will be able to work in Ukraine in the future.
It directly depends on the outcome of this war and on whether Ukraine will be able to win this war, because we are seeing that Russians,
what they do under occupied territories, they as I said before,
they close all access to information for the population, but they also persecute journalists.
They put them in jails. They you know, they tortured them, they killed them.
They forced them to flee in the best case scenario.
And that actually what Russians have been doing with journalists inside Russia for so many years, for decades already.
So in order for journalism in Ukraine to survive and for journalists to continue to report safely and,
you know, do their job properly, Ukraine needs to win and all Ukraine's territory needs to be liberated.
The main threat to journalists in Ukraine is currently Russia.
Ukrainian journalists have been very good in somehow coming to terms with and, you know,
challenging and really doing their job properly with the Ukrainian governments
with consecutive Ukrainian governments even now in the conditions of war.
There is no unanimity in the journalistic community that we should keep silent about problematic issues.
Just recently,
journalists reported on a scandal in the Ministry of Defence exposing potential corruption with the procurement of food for the soldiers.
So there was a lot, of course, of debate, you know,
whether we should report on this issues while there is a war or should we just like keep quiet and wait somehow for the war to end to address this?
But the consensus is that, no, we have to report about these things because Ukrainians are also fighting against corruption.
Ukrainians are also fighting for a transparent state and transparent government.
And the war is no excuse to censor ourselves not to report on that.
And I think that tells you a lot about also, you know, the and the courage and the professionalism of Ukrainian journalists that they are still
able to put the standards of the profession in the first place and to be guided by them,
even in this situation of an existential threat to their profession, to their work, to their country.
But as I said, the existential threat is Russia.
Ukrainian journalists in Ukrainian society will be able to bring their own government to account if it does show any wrongdoing.
But the most important thing is to win the war is to clear the house, kick Russians out,
and then deal with our internal problems without any external interference.
Indeed. And at this point where 12 months have passed to this invasion, and I think the overarching hope is justice.
Let justice be done where justice is due. Also joining in today.
Thank you. It's been a pleasure hearing your thoughts and hearing you articulate them.
And I hope all of what you see reverberates and has ripples across the world for journalists.
Our guest today was Olga Tokarczuk, an independent journalist from Ukraine.
She is a journalist fellow here at Reuters Institute. And we are very, very lucky to have one with us.
Make sure to follow our podcast. We're on Spotify and Apple.
And we will be back with another episode if you want to stay in tune with our news as well at the Institute.
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It has been a heavy but important conversation today, and I hope there's much for you to take away as well from it.
Thank you for listening to Future of Journalism. I'm Vitaly Mukherjee, and we'll be back.