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Welcome to the Future of Journalism, a podcast from the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism.

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I'm Vitaly Mukherjee. I'm director of journalists programs at the Institute.

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And today's conversation is a difficult one, but an important one.

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On 24th February 20, 22, a year ago, Russia invaded Ukraine.

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Since then, thousands of civilians and military personnel have been killed.

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Cities have turned to rubble and essential infrastructure has been destroyed.

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Perhaps a baton from day one of this invasion, where the human and infrastructural cost was extremely high.

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Millions of Ukrainians have been displaced. Their lives have been upended.

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And it has caused a migration crisis of sorts from that country into other countries.

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According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, the CPI 15 journalists were killed in Ukraine through last year.

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The situation for news media remains quite tense. It remains challenging, to say the least.

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Joining us today to talk about the impact on journalism from the war in Ukraine is Olga Tokarczuk.

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She is an independent journalist from Ukraine. She's currently a journalist fellow at our institute.

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And her work has been featured in publications worldwide, including Time, The Washington Post and NPR.

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Olga is also a non-resident fellow at the Centre for European Policy Analysis.

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She specialises in disinformation, research and in international relations as well.

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Olga, it's been a pleasure to have had you at the Institute and onto this conversation as well.

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Thank you so much. Italia Thank you for having me. Let me start with a little bit of perhaps taking a few steps back.

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You know, it seems like a year and it seems like document after document just detailing the level of this crisis,

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the level of the humanitarian damage that's happened.

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But I want to, if you can, for you to walk us back to the very early days of when this invasion began.

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Where were you at that time? What was happening with your journalistic life and what were your early thoughts really when this began?

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Yes. Thank you for this. You know, it's very difficult to to actually think about what happened a year ago.

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And it's almost unbelievable that already a year has passed since Russia invaded Ukraine in a full scale basis.

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And of course, there were so many challenges for Ukrainian journalists and for me in this

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year and for all Ukrainians who are still suffering under Russian occupation,

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Russian bombardment, Russian targeting of civilian population.

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So speaking about myself, you know, I was working as a freelance correspondent for international media when Russia launched its full scale invasion.

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In particular, I was reporting for the Spanish news agency AFP.

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And, you know, I've been reporting about Russian troops build up to the Ukrainian border for several months, already started in late 2021.

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So it wasn't a complete surprise for me when Russia launched its full scale invasion because it was already in the air.

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There were warnings from foreign governments and intelligence agencies about an imminent invasion.

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So, in fact, because of the fact that I was reporting tonight, I was speaking to Ukrainian officials,

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I was speaking to foreign officials, to diplomats from different countries.

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I expect that Russia might launch that invasion.

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I didn't envision what scale it would be.

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Actually, it was surprising that it was such a huge scale. That was surprising for me.

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But in a way, I took precautions to protect my family. And I left the capital of Ukraine several days before the invasion started.

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We moved to the west of Ukraine to meet my relatives.

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In one of my motivations, in addition to protecting my family, my young daughter was that that I,

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as a journalist maybe will be more able to report on what is happening if I am in a safe place,

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because it was obvious that Russians would not easily get to the west of Ukraine.

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So I thought, you know, I will be there in a place which has Internet connection where I'm safe from bombs if something happens.

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So I will be able to report. And that's actually what happened that, you know, immediately after the invasion began on February 24th,

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I woke up at 6:00 in the morning, check in, check the news.

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And I knew that Russia started the invasion. I knew that there were explosions heard in Kiev.

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And I told myself, now get to work.

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And I started to receive a lot of requests from different media all over the world to comment on what is happening, to report.

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And I told myself, you accept every single request and you speak to everyone because you have to let the

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world know what is happening in your country and what Russia is doing to your country.

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So that's how my first weeks and months since the start of the first of the full scale invasion go, I was working 12 hours per day, writing pieces,

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reporting, giving commands, giving interviews to a media from all corners of the globe Africa, Australia, Europe, Asia, America, everywhere.

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And anyone who's followed your work, Olga, has seen how vocal you've been about the impact on journalists,

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the irreparable loss of life for many, you know, in cases of this reportage from Ukraine and I remember a conversation with you

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earlier where you made the point about how for many journalists in Ukraine,

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there is no there is no choice or any option. You become a war reporter overnight.

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You know, your life has changed and that's all you're going to report on for that period.

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Are there stories that stand out that you think are important for readers and listeners, too, to look at?

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Did you to understand better the situation as it stands for journalists in Ukraine?

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Yes. Well, that's definitely my case. You know, it was not my choice to be a war reporter.

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I never went to the frontline and ever had this dream, as many my colleague of my colleagues had to report from a conflict zone.

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So I was reporting on international news. And in the last two years I was reporting on Ukrainian politics for international news outlets.

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But I was never a war reporter. I didn't have this ambition.

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And, you know, and I didn't feel like going to the frontline and reporting from the front line.

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So I chose to be and the background, let's say, still remain in Ukraine,

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but not go to the most dangerous places or go there when they become less dangerous.

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So after the occupation of Kiev to leave region, I went there to report about the rebuilding effort.

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So it wasn't a choice to be a war reporter, but this was something that was imposed on me by this Russian invasion of Ukraine.

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And many Ukrainian journalists found themselves in the similar situation.

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So they might have reported on culture or on sports or on social issues before.

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But since the Russian full scale invasion, the only important thing to report was was war.

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So we all try to contribute in the ways we could.

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And speaking about, you know, the impact on my colleagues, of course,

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the most kind of visible and heartbreaking impact was that so many of my colleagues have been killed in this war.

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Some of them were killed in the frontline. Some of them were killed by Russian missiles and their homes, like in Mariupol.

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And cameraman and photographer Victor Dando for my former colleague from Ukrainian television.

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Cameraman of any such. He became the first victim of this war among journalists.

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He was killed by a Russian missile in Kiev in early March, close to a TV tower when Russians attacked the TV tower in Kiev.

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And then, of course, a lot of journalists who lost their lives.

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Reporting from the front line in Kiev region during the occupation, during heavy battles there in March and April, such as Max Levin,

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one of the most famous and experienced photographers who reported on the war in Ukraine since 2014,

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who survived really very heavy battles such as a battle live in Isla Weiss back in 2014.

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But he did not survive the occupation of Kiev region by Russia in April in March of last year.

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And it's almost been two really seminal events that have changed people's relationship with news over the last few years on their school read.

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And then there was the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

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Some of our own research at Reuters shows that there is a level of exhaustion when people consume this news.

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But when you speak anecdotally to journalists within newsrooms, they actually see something different additional,

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which is that perhaps people's attention has been drawn more keenly towards news coverage after these after these two events.

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One of our own fellows said, give me a CV and I hope I'm pronouncing the name accurately.

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Who's been editor in chief of Ukraine's Pravda, actually said that people who are living in areas under Russian occupation are looking for this.

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They're looking for access to reliable information.

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Has the relationship of the Ukrainian public changed towards reporters and reportage and journalism generally, given the events of the last year?

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Yes, absolutely. I think people started to appreciate more the work of journalists,

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and it not only concerns the people in the Russian occupied territories, but also in the rest of Ukraine's territory.

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Obviously, one of the first things that Russians do when they occupied Ukrainian regions, they switched off Ukrainian media.

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So they you know, they jammed Internet, they jammed mobile signal and they disconnected Ukrainian radio and TV stations from broadcasting.

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So people didn't really have access to reliable information.

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And for example, like people who were on the Russian occupation in Kiev and New York region for more than one months,

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they were told by Russians that, you know, has already fallen,

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that, you know, the Ukrainian government has been toppled and they only found out that actually

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was lie and that didn't happen after the liberation of this territories.

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And of course, people in person that has been under Russian occupation for many months until its liberation in autumn of last year,

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they had it even more difficult. You know, they only had access to Russian propaganda.

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And it's not even media to Russian propaganda, TV stations, to Russian propaganda channels.

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And they had completely no idea about what was happening on the rest of Ukrainian territory.

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They had difficulty to get in touch with, you know, their friends and relatives in other parts of Ukraine.

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And, of course, they were very thirsty for the information, for reliable journalism, for reliable news, to understand what is really happening.

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But as I said, even on the territories of Ukraine that were not occupied,

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I think people kind of resort the importance of journalists, especially in documentation of Russian war crimes.

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Journalists were often the first to discover what has happened on the occupied territories.

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Journalists who are among the first to report about Russian atrocities in Georgia,

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about all the civilians who have been killed and executed there by Russian soldiers.

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Journalists later did a lot of very important investigations, collecting the evidence,

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satellite images and, you know, other sorts of evidence to confirm that indeed,

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the Russians committed these crimes after Russia initially denied and said this, all this images were fabricated, were fake.

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So I think that, yes, absolutely, the audience started appreciating journalists more, but also questioning and, you know,

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approach and critically the work of journalists, because there were also cases when a journalist behaviour raised questions.

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There were instances when, for example,

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journalists reported from a position of the Ukrainian armed forces or from a defence industry facility like a factory that was repairing tanks.

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And then this objects were hit by Russians, by Russian missiles in the following days and there were questions raised.

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Did journalists disclose the location of the sensitive objects?

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Did journalist actually exposed them to being targeted?

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So there is also a lot of scrutiny and I think a lot of responsibility,

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additional responsibility that is added to the work of journalists in the condition of war.

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Absolutely. And I think it's interesting you say that,

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because there are any number of such similar episodes that have occurred across different parts of the world when,

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you know, it was a conflict zone area and journalists had to tread a very, very careful line.

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I want to talk more about that, the impact on the industry itself.

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But before that, any any practicalities or practical challenges for for reporters covering the events of the last 12 months,

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also because there is a similar threat to it, you know,

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in terms of reporters covering war in Afghanistan or parts of Africa, safe passage is an issue.

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Support from your central newsroom is an issue.

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But what were the sort of unique experiences in terms of practical challenges for reporters in Ukraine?

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Well, I think that Ukrainian and international journalists, they can move almost, you know, unhinged and limited,

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without any obstacles on their work on the territories that are controlled by the Ukrainian government.

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While, of course, it is difficult,

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if not absolutely impossible on the Russian occupied territories because journalists are not allowed to get there, they are also under threat if.

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If they work there. So it's very difficult to get the information out of the occupied territories.

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What is actually happening? There are people who stay there. They face persecution, they first torture, they face sometimes rape.

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And they are being executed by Russian soldiers, by Russian occupying forces.

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So they might not want to talk to journalists even remotely,

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even anonymously and very often to the fullest extent of what is happening on

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the occupied territories only emerges after the liberation of this territory.

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So that's one of the challenges. Then, of course, there are the challenges, especially for a Ukrainian journalist.

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Initially, in the first weeks and months of war,

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there was a shortage of protective equipment that was resolved and with the help also that was coming from international organisations,

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international journalists, unions. So now that is not an issue.

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There are training courses for Ukrainian journalists that help them to navigate to work in a hostile environment.

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And actually many Ukrainian journalists already had this experience because the war didn't start in 2022.

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The war started in 2014, and many Ukrainian journalists have already reported from the war and had the experience of working in a conflict zone.

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But speaking more broadly, you know, the challenges that have been added to the media in general in Ukraine since 2022 is,

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of course, a huge rise, a huge drop in advertising revenues for the media.

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This is a crisis that Ukrainian media has never experienced before.

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Advertisement. Revenues fell by 81% for TV, 79 for print, and 61% for radio.

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This is an information coming from the Ukrainian advertisement coalition.

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And of course, under these conditions, many Ukrainian media had to rethink their business model,

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had to rethink how do they get funding, maybe switching more to relying on funding coming from abroad,

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from donor agencies, and they had to rethink their subscription model in the situation when many Ukrainians found

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themselves in economic hardship and were not able to pay for the subscription anymore.

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And unfortunately, it also led to many media, especially regional media, going bankrupt.

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So more than 200 regional media in Ukraine had to shut down because of the economic concerns,

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but also because some of them happened to be on the Russian occupation where they couldn't operate normally or their equipment

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has been looted and or destroyed when the region where they worked was for some period of time under Russian occupation.

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This also becomes a double edged sword when you look at it through the lens of press

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freedom and how much space there is to criticise things within within the region,

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isn't it, Olga? For instance, there was a loosely held coalition of many Ukrainian channels,

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which then has come under some sort of scrutiny for not being as independent as they want to.

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I understand there is a law being considered for later in this year that might clamp down a bit more on media freedom.

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You know, give us a little bit of a contrast. The financial distress, as you highlight, is quite clear.

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But has there been an impact on how much freedom journalists have in terms of looking at things and criticising things?

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Well, we have to understand that Ukraine is a democratic country with a very vibrant media scene,

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and it was the case before the Russian full scale invasion.

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So while there are TV stations that are run by the oligarchs and there is a public broadcaster.

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But there are also a wide array of media that are independent or that are not controlled by,

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you know, people with political affiliations or rich oligarchs.

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So there is a possibility still, I would argue,

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for many Ukrainians to get their news from an unbiased source and also to get their news

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from different sources and to compare the information they receive from different sources.

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So there is no mainstream one line of reporting.

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While, of course, there are issues with this United TV marathon that you mentioned.

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Just to explain a little bit of a background that in in in the very first of in the very first days of war,

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several Ukrainian TV channels, most of them belonged to oligarchs.

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They launched this so-called United TV marathon.

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So they united their newsrooms to report about Russian invasion.

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And it was difficult to do that like to do that for every TV station separately because Russian troops are moving towards Kiev.

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It was unclear, you know, how long people will stand, will it stand?

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And many journalists actually fled, believe like I did.

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So they they moved out of the capital to save their families, to bring them to safety.

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And many of my colleagues moved abroad, especially female colleagues.

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They they took their children and they just fled abroad. They became refugees.

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Journalists, after all, are humans, as all the others and some of them prioritise their safety over their work in their reporting.

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So in these conditions, you know, of the shortage of staff, very big uncertainty over what would be happening.

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It was decided by several TV channels to unite the forces and, you know, to create this united newsroom to a to report on what has been happening.

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And while it was a really good idea in the first weeks and months of the invasion,

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because it also helped Ukraine to repel a lot of disinformation that was circulating around a lot of Russian attempts to,

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you know, poison the information space to sow panic in the Ukrainian society,

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to somehow prevent Ukrainian resistance from happening and gain in force.

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And this United TV Madison also became a source, a target of criticism as as time went by, because more and more,

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the reporting was very much in line with the official government's position, which is understandable in the conditions of war when media operate,

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let's be frank, differently, especially if we are speaking about the national media or, you know,

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nationals and citizens of this country are working for this media and they care about their country survival.

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So of course their reporting would be very different in a condition of war than in a condition of just normal life.

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But there are concerns now about the government, let's say maybe not control,

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but let's say government influence over the content of this marathon that very rarely there is any criticism or a second opinion.

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And also about the presence of some questionable figures in this marathon,

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some journalists and presenters who are considered as not really professional,

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maybe who displayed some pro-Russian attitudes before or worked on TV stations that were owned by oligarchs with connections to Russia.

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So there are a lot of controversies about that. Yes.

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One more reason to reflect back on this period for journalists and journalism generally,

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although we see the capacity of this war to have been fought online and offline, as you said, it was it was tremendous.

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This was so nami of disinformation that that hit across social media platforms and otherwise.

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Is it your sense over the last few months, though,

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that people generally and readers and viewers have become more adept at sifting through disinformation,

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as also have journalists and organisations themselves become sharper at cutting through a lot of that disinformation and false news?

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Well, I think Ukraine has developed immunity to Russian disinformation and propaganda long time ago,

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because Ukraine has been bombarded by that since 2014, at the very least.

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And overall, this year, there were a lot of initiatives in Ukraine actually exposing disinformation,

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such as stop fake and others fact check initiatives.

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And, you know, and then the debate about like how disinformation operators act and, you know, what techniques they use and how it works.

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It has been there in Ukraine. So I would argue that they raise awareness about the dangerous of Russian propaganda and disinformation,

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and there is immunity towards it also because, you know, Ukrainians leave this experience of war.

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They leave the experience of being bombed, of being child, of being killed, of being tortured.

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Of Russia attacking civilian targets and destroying energy infrastructure.

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So if you have that live in experience, how can you possibly believe in the Russian disinformation narrative saying that, you know,

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Ukraine is needs to be the Nazi fighters or that Ukrainian civilians actually are to blame in the, you know,

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for what is happening because they behaved in a way that somehow justifies all this atrocities that Russia commits.

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So being a Ukrainian being inside Ukraine and living through this experience, well,

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it's it's impossible to believe in Russian disinformation and Russian propaganda anymore.

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And I think the Russians, they themselves, the Kremlin, they realise that that's why they,

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I would say, channelled their efforts to target audiences outside of Ukraine,

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to target audiences in the West with a goal to undermine support for Ukraine,

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because Ukraine is really heavily reliant on the support of the Western countries, both military, financial, political support.

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And also increasingly,

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I would say that Russian disinformation is targeting audiences in the global south because Russia wants to preserve its status as a global power,

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it still portrays itself as an alternative to the imperialist west, as it says,

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although Russia itself is an empire and its war in Ukraine is an imperial war of conquest.

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However, I would I would argue that, you know, this efforts in the West have largely failed in the last year,

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also because because of a very good Ukrainian communications strategy, because of,

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you know, very efficient communication by President Zelensky, by the Ukrainian government,

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but also because of very efficient communication of many Ukrainian grassroot actors taken to Twitter, taken to all the platforms, producing viral,

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humorous content, ridiculing Russians, exposing the absurdity of their disinformation and exposing the,

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you know, the falsehoods in their claims about Ukraine.

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So I would say that largely thanks to this Russian disinformation effort in the West has failed as well.

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But I don't think Russian disinformation effort is failing in the global south.

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And that's, I think,

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where we should be look into because Russia uses that anti-Western sentiment and its deception in presenting itself as an alternative to NATO,

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to the imperialist West, as a tool, as a very useful narrative to reach those audiences,

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to build cooperation with those countries, to continue trading with them.

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Like with India, for example, with Brazil,

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Russia receives a lot of revenues because of of its trade with these countries and the revenues that help it fund this war against Ukraine.

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And disinformation is a tool in, you know, in keeping in maintaining this war machine and keeping it afloat.

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So we should be very mindful of that,

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and we should be looking into this efforts to reach the audiences and change the public opinion outside of the Western world.

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There is certainly something to be explored there.

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And even perhaps though the back and forth in terms of sanctions that are imposed and announced by Western countries,

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but then other sort of backdoor agreements that that seem like just two steps back

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rather than two steps forward situation for both the global north and the global south.

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Much of the focus up until now, Olga has of course been on, you know, strategic efforts by some of the Western countries.

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Trees where they themselves perhaps crossed the Rubicon in their own minds by providing arms and ammunition.

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But how does this rule extend to the broader journalistic community across the world?

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How do you think there can be better support or increased support for for Ukrainian journalists?

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Well, as I mentioned, you know, the support of international journalists organisations has been fundamental in providing Ukrainian journalists

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with protective equipment in the first weeks and months of war when there was a shortage of such equipment.

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And that still goes on. There are several foundations in Ukraine that receive this aid and then distribute it to Ukrainian journalists in need.

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And, you know, I think in order to both keep Ukrainian focus and also counter Russian disinformation,

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the presence of journalists on the ground is crucial.

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So probably the most important thing is how journalists from other countries can support Ukraine is to be present on the ground in Ukraine,

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is to continue reporting in Ukraine, which is now, of course, is done in very difficult conditions, in addition to, you know,

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the threats associated to the war and the risk of being hit by a missile or a mortar or a shell.

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There are constraints related to the disruption of electricity supply that Russia is intentionally imposing on Ukraine by bombarding its energy grid.

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So very often there is no Internet or there is no electricity.

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And journalists also, it makes their reporting very difficult.

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They have to operate in in harsh conditions of war, in conditions where they might have little access or.

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No access to this basic needs that need that, you know, that that has to be there for them to do their job.

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They are still winter in Ukraine. So harsh winter conditions.

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But despite all that, I see that, you know, there are still journalists, international journalists reporting from Ukraine.

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Now, because of the anniversary, there is a renewed spike in interest towards Ukraine.

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Everyone is back. All the international reporters are back to Ukraine to kind of reflect and sum up what was this past year and,

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you know, what's the situation currently?

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You know, I think like and I really want to praise a work done by my colleagues from different countries in Ukraine,

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because I think in this past year they've really managed not only to tell the story of the war on the Ukraine,

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that's Russia and least, but also tell the story of Ukraine to tell this story of this country that has been democratising itself,

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it has been transforming itself in the past 30 years to tell the story of the Ukrainian people who has shown have shown incredible resilience,

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resistance, vitality, you know, creativity and willingness to fight for the values that they share with democratic countries.

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So I really want to commend this effort of my colleagues from all over the world,

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have done a tremendous job to tell the story of Ukraine, not only of the pain and suffering,

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but also of courage, of bravery and of the fight for what is good and for what is,

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you know, the progressive and civilised, for the human rights, for democracy, for freedom.

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Yes. Well, final question, then, Olga.

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You know, Gideon Rose, the author of How Wars and talks about two outcomes for most wars, as we've documented them through history.

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You know, either there is a clear outcome where there is a winner or loser or there is some kind of mutually agreed peace,

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negotiated, be exhausted, stalemate.

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I think what it doesn't cover is the the mental and physical exhaustion for journalists who are documenting things as as they as they unfold.

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What are your hopes for journalists and journalism in Ukraine over a longer term basis?

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As you mentioned, many tectonic shifts have happened by way of the financial crisis and other changes.

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How do you think it will emerge at the other end?

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Well, you know how it will emerge for journalists and how journalists will be able to work in Ukraine in the future.

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It directly depends on the outcome of this war and on whether Ukraine will be able to win this war, because we are seeing that Russians,

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what they do under occupied territories, they as I said before,

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they close all access to information for the population, but they also persecute journalists.

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They put them in jails. They you know, they tortured them, they killed them.

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They forced them to flee in the best case scenario.

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And that actually what Russians have been doing with journalists inside Russia for so many years, for decades already.

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So in order for journalism in Ukraine to survive and for journalists to continue to report safely and,

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you know, do their job properly, Ukraine needs to win and all Ukraine's territory needs to be liberated.

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The main threat to journalists in Ukraine is currently Russia.

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Ukrainian journalists have been very good in somehow coming to terms with and, you know,

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challenging and really doing their job properly with the Ukrainian governments

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with consecutive Ukrainian governments even now in the conditions of war.

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There is no unanimity in the journalistic community that we should keep silent about problematic issues.

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Just recently,

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journalists reported on a scandal in the Ministry of Defence exposing potential corruption with the procurement of food for the soldiers.

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So there was a lot, of course, of debate, you know,

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whether we should report on this issues while there is a war or should we just like keep quiet and wait somehow for the war to end to address this?

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But the consensus is that, no, we have to report about these things because Ukrainians are also fighting against corruption.

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Ukrainians are also fighting for a transparent state and transparent government.

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And the war is no excuse to censor ourselves not to report on that.

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And I think that tells you a lot about also, you know, the and the courage and the professionalism of Ukrainian journalists that they are still

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able to put the standards of the profession in the first place and to be guided by them,

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even in this situation of an existential threat to their profession, to their work, to their country.

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But as I said, the existential threat is Russia.

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Ukrainian journalists in Ukrainian society will be able to bring their own government to account if it does show any wrongdoing.

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But the most important thing is to win the war is to clear the house, kick Russians out,

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and then deal with our internal problems without any external interference.

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Indeed. And at this point where 12 months have passed to this invasion, and I think the overarching hope is justice.

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Let justice be done where justice is due. Also joining in today.

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Thank you. It's been a pleasure hearing your thoughts and hearing you articulate them.

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And I hope all of what you see reverberates and has ripples across the world for journalists.

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Our guest today was Olga Tokarczuk, an independent journalist from Ukraine.

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She is a journalist fellow here at Reuters Institute. And we are very, very lucky to have one with us.

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Make sure to follow our podcast. We're on Spotify and Apple.

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And we will be back with another episode if you want to stay in tune with our news as well at the Institute.

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Another way to do that is to subscribe to our weekly newsletter.

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You can catch that on our Twitter bio.

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It has been a heavy but important conversation today, and I hope there's much for you to take away as well from it.

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Thank you for listening to Future of Journalism. I'm Vitaly Mukherjee, and we'll be back.