1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:15,410 Welcome to The Future of Journalism, a podcast from the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at the University of Oxford. 2 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:30,830 I'm Fredricka Cherubini. This is a special series of our podcast, and it's dedicated to Religion News Report 2021 over six episodes. 3 00:00:30,830 --> 00:00:37,910 We are diving into the findings of the report, the most comprehensive piece of research on news consumption around the world. 4 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:44,150 I'm the head of leadership development at the Institute. And for this podcast, I'll be joined by the authors of the report. 5 00:00:44,150 --> 00:00:50,180 Our guests today are Richard Fletcher, senior research fellow at the Reuters Institute and leader of a research team, 6 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:55,040 and Rasmus Nielsen, co-author of the report and director of the institute. 7 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:02,210 Richard and Rasmus will help us understand more about how people think commercial news media should be financed Rasmus. 8 00:01:02,210 --> 00:01:06,600 Richard, welcome and thank you for being with us today. Thanks for having us. 9 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,610 Thank you. 10 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:17,700 For those who work in the news industry or a passionate about it, the conversation about the business sustainability of journalism is a crucial one. 11 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:24,450 Print has been declining for a while now, and in the last year, we've witnessed the global pandemic accelerating this decline, 12 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:28,870 further impacting the bottom line for many independent media companies. 13 00:01:28,870 --> 00:01:37,290 Digital advertising revenues or a big part of it, goes to Facebook, Google and a few other large digital platforms. 14 00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:43,560 And while we've seen an increasing number of publishers turning to directory revenue like subscriptions or membership, 15 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,940 the overall percentage of people paying for online use remains low. 16 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:51,180 Even though we've seen in this year digital news report a significant increase 17 00:01:51,180 --> 00:01:55,980 in payment for online news in a small number of richer Western countries. 18 00:01:55,980 --> 00:02:01,200 In this kind of environment, it is crucial to know what audiences think of these issues, 19 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:08,310 especially when a few governments are considering stepping in to help independent news organisations in different ways. 20 00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:17,910 I guess the place to start here is with the audience itself. Rosmus, you've studied this issue for a few years and analysed this year's data. 21 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:24,350 Do you people know about the difficult financial situation of the news industry? 22 00:02:24,350 --> 00:02:26,770 The short answer is no. 23 00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:34,450 It's only thirty one percent of our respondents who recognise that most news publishers are less profitable today than they were 10 years ago, 24 00:02:34,450 --> 00:02:39,460 and there are many who think that they are as profitable or more profitable than they were in the past. 25 00:02:39,460 --> 00:02:43,160 And then about a third to just say flat out that they don't know. 26 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,630 I mean, I think this is perhaps surprising for some in the profession, the industry itself. 27 00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:54,980 I mean, there are few things that journalists are more keenly aware of than the financial travails facing much of the industry, 28 00:02:54,980 --> 00:02:58,910 whether they are veterans who've been through years of cost cutting and shrinking newsrooms, 29 00:02:58,910 --> 00:03:04,700 or younger journalists who've joined the profession during lean years and lived their whole professional life with precarity, 30 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:12,420 short term contracts and frequent layoffs. But I mean, I think it's important to recognise here that more broadly, you know, 31 00:03:12,420 --> 00:03:19,920 while our research suggests that people have a pretty clear and often quite sensible sense of what major news brands have to offer, 32 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:22,590 including how trustworthy they are, 33 00:03:22,590 --> 00:03:30,390 many people have a pretty limited understanding of the more sort of detailed issues around the news industry in the media environment, 34 00:03:30,390 --> 00:03:34,890 ranging from how journalists and editors work to basic features of our media environment, 35 00:03:34,890 --> 00:03:39,090 like the fact that the Facebook news feed is ranked by algorithms. And of course, 36 00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:44,640 I think we also need to recognise that that's arguably no different from most people's pretty limited 37 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,650 understanding of the details of many other important institutions or industries in our societies, 38 00:03:49,650 --> 00:03:53,250 whether universities or pharmaceutical companies. 39 00:03:53,250 --> 00:04:01,200 I'm sure many journalists listening to us now will find unbelievable that some people think the news media are profitable. 40 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:08,430 But I guess another question here is whether audiences are concerned about the financial state of the news industry in the first place. 41 00:04:08,430 --> 00:04:12,310 Richard, what do we know about this? Well, I mean, 42 00:04:12,310 --> 00:04:17,620 given that any small number of people think that the commercial news media is less profitable than 43 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:24,340 it was and media financing is is not something that is a top priority for much of the public, 44 00:04:24,340 --> 00:04:25,720 as Rasmussen has mentioned, 45 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:33,580 it's perhaps not surprising that we also find this public concern over the financial status of commercial news media is low. 46 00:04:33,580 --> 00:04:37,480 So across the three markets where we failed to this question, just under a third, 47 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:44,110 31 percent said that they're concerned with half, 51 percent saying that they're not concerned. 48 00:04:44,110 --> 00:04:52,540 The rest said they don't know in response to this question, probably because it's not something that they've given much thought to in the past. 49 00:04:52,540 --> 00:05:01,570 And are these results across these countries consistent or do you see a variation in any region? 50 00:05:01,570 --> 00:05:08,650 Well, as you might expect, the numbers do very little by country, but the general pattern is actually quite consistent. 51 00:05:08,650 --> 00:05:15,040 So in all but a tiny handful of countries, more people say that they're not concerned about the financial state of commercial news 52 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,320 media than say that they're concerned when it comes to picking out patterns by region. 53 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,860 This isn't straight forward because I think there are lots of country specific 54 00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:28,480 factors that might influence people's attitudes on this one way or the other. 55 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,630 But I think it's also noticeable that in in northern Europe, 56 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:39,640 where there's typically both prominent and well-funded public service media and relatively high levels of paying for online news, 57 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:53,680 concern tends to be lower than it is elsewhere. Some countries have a history of government intervention, either via direct or indirect subsidies. 58 00:05:53,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Do people think the government should step in to help commercial news organisations that can make enough money on their own? 59 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:13,190 There's not a lot of public support for the idea of stepping in to support commercial news organisations that can't make enough money on their own. 60 00:06:13,190 --> 00:06:20,660 Now, you know, there are, of course, you know, some public policies that we pursue even without majority public support. 61 00:06:20,660 --> 00:06:27,890 And similarly, there are public policies that do have majority support that we don't pursue for other reasons. 62 00:06:27,890 --> 00:06:28,760 And this really, I think, 63 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:38,570 is sort of a personal question for each of us to make up our own minds about as citizens and for those who represent us as elected officials. 64 00:06:38,570 --> 00:06:46,100 What I will say is that while there is no clear public support for this, according to our data, 65 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:53,840 we do know that there are policy options available if the public and the elected officials who represent them are willing to commit real resources. 66 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:57,710 And that is possible to structure these policies in a way that insulate news 67 00:06:57,710 --> 00:07:01,760 media from political influence and minimise distortions in the marketplace. 68 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:08,420 We see this in the form of genuinely independent public service media with clear defined limits 69 00:07:08,420 --> 00:07:13,130 and the ability to operate across different platforms that we see in some parts of Europe. 70 00:07:13,130 --> 00:07:18,590 We see this in the form of indirect subsidies that have long been in place in many countries across the world. 71 00:07:18,590 --> 00:07:26,480 VAT exemption and the like in recent years also extended to digital news belatedly and of course in some countries also direct subsidies, 72 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:35,600 which can be tricky territory because sometimes they are used as handouts to sort of prop up incumbents or sort of politically aligned publishers. 73 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:42,440 But they can be designed in ways that primarily support investment and independent professional journalism 74 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:48,890 and does not give politicians or civil servants or others leverage over the publishers are receiving support. 75 00:07:48,890 --> 00:07:54,890 And that's really a political question for each of us as a citizen and for elected officials whether they want to pursue these options. 76 00:07:54,890 --> 00:08:00,920 But what our data can show is that at this stage at least, 77 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:07,430 there doesn't seem to be a broad based public support for this in the countries where we feel these questions. 78 00:08:07,430 --> 00:08:14,390 And I think for from journalists and the news media side, I think it is worth thinking about what that means, 79 00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:19,490 because, of course, you know, given the very real crisis of much of the industry continues to face, 80 00:08:19,490 --> 00:08:25,160 even as some titles are doing quite well and have come through the crisis stronger, 81 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:34,130 arguably there seems to be a clear case for some form of public policy intervention to address market failure, at least in principle. 82 00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:40,880 But I do think that journalism news media need to think about whether such a policy intervention needs to be 83 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:48,920 based on broad based public and political support to ensure its legitimacy and resilience and reduce the risk. 84 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,560 That disagreement over media policy become yet another issue that further polarised public opinion about journalism 85 00:08:54,560 --> 00:09:04,200 and the media and risk undermining trust in the news if it isn't based on sort of clear public support. 86 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:14,100 Thanks, Rasmus. Richard, I wonder whether there are any factors that determine how news audiences think about government intervention. 87 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:20,490 Can things like trust in news or high interest in news predict how people think about this issue? 88 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:25,800 Well, trust in newsis is quite a complicated thing and that the relationship there is quite mixed. 89 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,390 But interestingly, you said it matters, but I think it matters in an indirect way. 90 00:09:30,390 --> 00:09:38,040 So the more interested people are in the news, the more likely they are to be concerned about the commercial media financing. 91 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,530 And then the more concerned they are, the more likely they are to support the idea of government intervention. 92 00:09:43,530 --> 00:09:48,720 But one thing I think we found quite striking in the data is that even amongst those who are concerned, 93 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:55,320 it's still only a minority rather than a majority within this group that think the government should perhaps step in to help. 94 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:02,260 And that's also true of many other socio demographic groups in the data. 95 00:10:02,260 --> 00:10:04,810 These debates are not hypothetical, 96 00:10:04,810 --> 00:10:13,030 like governments from countries like Denmark or France are stepping in to help commercial news media in different ways. 97 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:20,920 Others are now looking at alternative ways of using policy to secure additional revenue for commercial news media from the biggest platform companies, 98 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:32,710 for example, such as Google and Facebook. What should policymakers be considering in terms of these changes that you've seen in the data? 99 00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:39,220 I mean, I think that policymakers often have a legitimate interest in trying to understand 100 00:10:39,220 --> 00:10:43,030 whether there is broad based public support for policies that they're considering, 101 00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:51,290 it's not the only thing that matters, but it is a thing that matters. You know, some policies that we pursue have broad based support, some don't. 102 00:10:51,290 --> 00:10:56,710 And it's up to our elected officials whether they believe that things are worth pursuing, 103 00:10:56,710 --> 00:11:01,720 even if they aren't supported by a wide and broad swath of the public. 104 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:08,510 If there is such support, it, of course, makes it more attractive for policymakers to pursue such policies. 105 00:11:08,510 --> 00:11:15,060 Politicians have their own self-interest in media policy as in everything else, and it would be naive to set that aside. 106 00:11:15,060 --> 00:11:23,460 If there isn't such support and policymakers or for that matter, journalists and those who care about journalism still want to pursue such policies, 107 00:11:23,460 --> 00:11:32,820 then there is work ahead of them to convince the public that this is the right thing to do in the absence of broad based public support. 108 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:40,860 I do fear that government policy supporting commercial news media risk coming across as a private for profit industry, 109 00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:45,210 advancing its own narrow self-interest at taxpayers expense, 110 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:53,640 and a politician supporting that self-interest and essentially sort of responding to requests from private publishers for special 111 00:11:53,640 --> 00:12:00,030 privileges will come across as if they are mainly interested in increasing their own leverage over an institution that is, 112 00:12:00,030 --> 00:12:07,980 after all, meant to hold power to account and be independent of politicians and policy makers. 113 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:10,140 Rosner's, thank you, Richard. 114 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:19,020 Thank you for joining us and thank you to you for listening to the fifth episode of the digital news report, 20/20 one podcast series. 115 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:26,490 Our guest today, Richard Fletcher, senior research fellow at the Reuters Institute and leader of a research team at the Rasmus Nielsen, 116 00:12:26,490 --> 00:12:30,990 co-author of the report and director of the institute in the next episode will 117 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:35,730 talk about impartiality and whether people want impartial coverage or news, 118 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:44,370 which takes more of a point of view. Make sure to follow our podcast channel on Spotify or Apple podcast so you don't miss the next episode. 119 00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:50,760 And if you don't want to miss any news from the institute, subscribe to our weekly newsletter by clicking the link on our Twitter bio. 120 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:55,680 Also homepage, you can find the report online and digital news report. 121 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:02,110 Dot org slash twenty twenty one. This was Feature Journalism, a podcast by the Reuters Institute. 122 00:13:02,110 --> 00:13:12,168 I'm David Greene and we'll be back soon.