1 00:00:01,980 --> 00:00:05,610 ARI: Hello, I'm Ari. [CLAUDINE: And I'm Claudine] Welcome to Proving the Negative. 2 00:00:05,610 --> 00:00:09,490 ARI: We're a podcast all about exploring the different sides of cybersecurity, 3 00:00:09,490 --> 00:00:13,770 from political to computer science, international relations to mathematics. 4 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:17,160 Join us as we talk to our friends about the work they do. 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,630 If you're looking for new ways to think about security, we're the podcast for you. 6 00:00:21,630 --> 00:00:24,150 CLAUDINE: We are your hosts, Arianna and Claudine, 7 00:00:24,150 --> 00:00:30,960 we will talk to cybersecurity researchers about the problems they tackle. 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:39,300 ARI: Here at PTNPod we keep the message positive and proactive! 9 00:00:39,300 --> 00:00:42,880 CLAUDINE: Ari we should probably explain - what IS a black swan exactly? 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:48,840 ARI: For anyone paying attention to our branding, we use black swans... 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:56,730 Black swans have been used to illustrate different ways of thinking. Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote "Black Swans". 12 00:00:56,730 --> 00:01:00,750 He talks about black swans as events, and these events have three properties. 13 00:01:00,750 --> 00:01:04,380 The first is that they're difficult to predict. The second is that they're high impact. 14 00:01:04,380 --> 00:01:09,210 So there's usually a big consequence. Third, we could see the events coming. 15 00:01:09,210 --> 00:01:15,240 The 2008 crisis is a black swan. Nassim Taleb talks about medieval England: 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:20,580 Instead of "when pigs fly", it was "you'll see a black swan before that happens". 17 00:01:20,580 --> 00:01:21,990 No one had been to Australia. No one had seen black swans. 18 00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:29,520 A lot of folks won't deal with cybersecurity issues (but they exist and can have a big impact). 19 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,800 The other is a philosophical problem. Going for a walk in England, no black swans. 20 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,520 They're not native. Say go for a walk and see a swan - a white one. 21 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:45,540 I might generalise that all swans are white, and that's just not true. 22 00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:50,460 There's a problem in assuming the future will turn out just like the past has done. 23 00:01:50,460 --> 00:01:54,360 For me, black swans represent the idea that we can do things differently. 24 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,430 As an example - just because we've seen companies hoovering up personal data, 25 00:01:59,430 --> 00:02:03,030 it doesn't mean that that's how we have to build systems, moving forwards. 26 00:02:03,030 --> 00:02:08,880 It does require a re-think about what we know, what we do and how we do it. 27 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,800 This isn't really about the swans, it's what they represent. We also like the aesthetic. 28 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,160 If you can think of any examples, do send them in! 29 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,280 What can our listeners expect in upcoming episodes? 30 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:27,450 CLAUDINE: If you're interested in some of the dangers that kids online face, 31 00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:29,820 we are going to be talking to someone about that. 32 00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:37,800 If your bag is International Relations and intrigue we're going to cover that as well. 33 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,360 Online hate groups... ARI: Let's tell people about the CDT. 34 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,940 CLAUDINE: The Centre for Doctoral Training in Cyber Security, University of Oxford. 35 00:02:47,940 --> 00:02:51,300 There are now several CDTs across the country. 36 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:56,760 The goal of the programme is to be interdisciplinary and to include people 37 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,560 with a wide array of backgrounds into the programme for diverse perspectives. 38 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,700 ARI: Why did we start this podcast? CLAUDINE: There were a couple of reasons. 39 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:10,470 Certainly when I started, I had no idea of the breadth of work that was being done. 40 00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:15,390 I imagined a lot more of it would be 'traditional' of cybersecurity. 41 00:03:15,390 --> 00:03:18,390 Hacking, network security or penetration testing. 42 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:25,890 I never considered fields like International Relations, Law, Sociology or Education. 43 00:03:25,890 --> 00:03:30,750 It was a real shame that they weren't part of the mainstream conversation, 44 00:03:30,750 --> 00:03:36,390 I thought a podcast to talk about that would broaden horizons a little bit. 45 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:41,070 ARI: I would add - I've been to a lot of research talks (where I'd fall asleep). 46 00:03:41,070 --> 00:03:47,250 Engagement is a really important skill, and I wanted to do more of that. 47 00:03:47,250 --> 00:03:53,670 CLAUDINE: Research means using specific academic language that means nothing, 48 00:03:53,670 --> 00:03:58,660 to anyone outside your field. ARI: This podcast is an engagement tool. 49 00:03:58,660 --> 00:04:05,110 Showcasing work and exposing people to new ideas around cyber security. 50 00:04:05,110 --> 00:04:10,900 Also, I get to work with you, Claudine. You do a lot of advocacy and development... 51 00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:16,330 It's a chance for me to talk to you more, really. 52 00:04:16,330 --> 00:04:22,080 CLAUDINE: We are first time podcasters, it's a good way to get perspective. 53 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:29,380 Ari, your work on data rights etc. is stuff I was really glad to know more about. 54 00:04:29,380 --> 00:04:33,760 ARI: What can our listeners expect in the coming episodes? Any tidbits? 55 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,240 CLAUDINE: We tried to run the gamut this series. We have fun with our guests, 56 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:43,060 we asked for elevator pitches, how they approach challenges, any surprises... 57 00:04:43,060 --> 00:04:46,150 and what they would investigate if they had all the money in the world to do so. 58 00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:50,770 Finally, we asked for tips for anyone who would like to keep up with cyber security. 59 00:04:50,770 --> 00:04:57,820 We asked our guests what cyber security is and how they would define it. 60 00:04:57,820 --> 00:05:02,440 We were surprised by how different answers were. That just shows how broad 61 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,690 cyber security has become. A little background on us... 62 00:05:07,690 --> 00:05:11,350 My background is actually not in Computer Science at all. 63 00:05:11,350 --> 00:05:17,170 My background is in Law and Political Science. I did a pretty big 180 in... 64 00:05:17,170 --> 00:05:25,120 What I look at is the effect social media has on individual well-being... 65 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:31,540 why users have the reactions that they have to social media content, 66 00:05:31,540 --> 00:05:33,640 which seems like an obvious question, 67 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:42,220 but is difficult and feeds into questions about control and social media use. 68 00:05:42,220 --> 00:05:45,880 How about you? ARI: My background has been fairly traditional. 69 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:52,180 I started off in Computer Science, networks focused, blinking lights... 70 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:56,620 Even at that point you have to think about password policies... 71 00:05:56,620 --> 00:06:02,350 how people use your systems, what purpose do these networks serve? 72 00:06:02,350 --> 00:06:06,040 My research has been about building trust - this is key to systems that last. 73 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,950 Think about longer term impact and human needs... 74 00:06:11,950 --> 00:06:15,670 We are going to have our own episodes later on. Stay tuned, we'll geek out! 75 00:06:15,670 --> 00:06:20,050 In the meantime, you can tweet at us @HelloPTNPod. 76 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:27,160 If you're just on the edge of your seat, subscribe to our podcast. 77 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,700 Our show is PTNPod. Ari, what do people do if they are not on Twitter? 78 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:36,070 ARI: Well, if you are not on Twitter, no problem at all. 79 00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:42,490 You can ping us an email at ptnegative@cs.ox.ac.uk 80 00:06:42,490 --> 00:06:48,250 We would love a good review... notes, questions, anything you want to talk about. 81 00:06:48,250 --> 00:06:51,790 Please get in touch. We'd love to hear it. Thanks for listening, we'll see you next time. 82 00:06:51,790 --> 00:06:59,680 CLAUDINE: Bye, everyone. This has been a podcast from the Centre for Doctoral Training in Cyber Security, 83 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,571 University of Oxford. Funded by the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council.