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Let's go poorly. Well, good afternoon, everyone, and a very warm welcome to this fourth seminar of the term at the South Asia Connector.

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But the South Asian seminar here in Oxford today, it's a very great pleasure to welcome Dr Nosheen Ali.

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Dr Ali is a sociologist who's currently serving as faculty global faculty in residence at NYU.

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She researches state making ecology and Muslim cultural politics in South Asia with a particular focus on Pakistan and Kashmir.

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And she's going to talk to us today about her recent work, which has a very, very interesting and intriguing title.

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Delusional States Love, Citizenship and Resistance in Gilgit about it's done.

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And for those of you who are joining us from outside Oxford,

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there will be some time at the end of Dr Ali's presentation for questions which you can send in via the chat box.

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If you think you might want to ask a question.

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Don't waste until the end of the presentation to send it in, because sometimes there is a little bit of a delay.

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So you're you're very welcome to send in questions throughout the talk.

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And Dr Ali will do her best to answer them at the end of the talk.

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Before we then move to our particular focussed Oxford discussion.

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So, Dr Ali, over to you. And much looking forward to your presentation.

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Thank you, Polly. And thank you to the South Asia Studies Group at Oxford for this kind invitation.

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It's a hard thing to give a book talk. This is probably the sixth or seventh time that I am speaking about the book.

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And every time it's a cherished opportunity. So I really appreciate the audience.

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The book is titled Delusional States. I'm not sure if you can see feeling rule and development in Pakistan's northern frontier.

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And it looks at the part of Pakistani administered Kashmir called Gilgit, Pakistan, which is internationally considered a spot of disputed Kashmir.

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As many of you know, India and Pakistan have fought several wars over the territory of Kashmir.

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And what has often happened is that the identities,

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the cultural politics and the social struggles of people on the ground have been

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marginalised in the overall framing of the dispute as a bipartisan two party dispute.

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So the book is part of a larger gershuni studies, Kashmiri scholarship, growing body of research, growing body of,

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I would say, scholarly activist work, which is trying to break the intellectual line of control.

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There was a time, but there was very little conversation across the line of control between scholars who work on both sides.

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So I hope that the book makes a contribution to not just gig in Pakistan, which is an understudied place in the larger dispute of Kashmir,

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but also in our critical understanding of nationalism, state formation, development and resistance in South Asia broadly.

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One caveat before I go into the details of the doc is that often in South Asia settings, because this is a South Asia seminar,

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I'm going to use the opportunity to say that Kashmir has often been at the margins of conversations in South Asia studies.

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It's seen as this either political science topic for the longest time.

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It would seem like that, or maybe in border studies.

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I have distinct memories of going to South Asia conferences where a group of us were referred to as the Kashmir folk as if.

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If we look at or if we work on Kashmir, it's necessarily just about the Kashmir conflict.

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And there is a resistance, intellectual and political, to to discussing Kashmir.

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Even in academic settings, because it's a it's an emotionally fraught topic.

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And my book addresses that, what is often known as the heart of hostility or the emotional.

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We in which particularly Indians and Pakistanis get about Ashmead.

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And it looks at the emotions at stake on the ground within people who have been most marginalised

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and repressed as a result of this so-called national security issue in India and Pakistan.

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So the point I want to make is that the book is not just about Pakistan or Kashmir studies.

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Our work as scholars off and on ASHMEAD is about challenging South Asian studies.

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It's about challenging nationalism through the lens of occupation.

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It's about seeing the Pakistani state and Indian state for what they reveal.

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In parts of Kashmir and now what we see in India and Pakistan is actually a dynamic that a lot of us have been seeing in Kashmir for a very long time.

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So this is just to say that the centrality of the region is not just because it's a region.

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It should not just be regionalised, but because of the militarisation of citizenship that is unveiled.

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There has become a model, sadly, for what the states are doing in India and Pakistan.

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So with that, I'll start the slides. I hope that's visible.

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Polly, can you see the slides? Fine. They're not sure if you were on mute, but I hope I hope people can see.

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And I didn't begin with the words from a giggity point and I read it in the first Zoubi

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uncle may not be a B lagom showed the immediate lucht data that showed the Ghil'ad,

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but Jacek Edelsten knew he had Beja this ADC.

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How may. Toward the end of Eatock of owning Dogood.

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Okay. Huh. I beat the heck of I mean dogood thinking.

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Huh. Well agenda up not news child dia.

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I've let my tongue loose from now on, ruler of the time.

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I've stopped respecting you. From now on. Am I right in complaining or.

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No, my friends. Half a century and we are still in jeans.

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The laws of dog laws still prevail here. They have long gone, but their system remains.

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I start with the poetic medium because attending poetry festivals in Gilgit,

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Pakistan soon showed to me the kind of creative resistances that people in a heavily

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militarised and Soviet context resort to to express their feelings about the state.

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So a central argument of my book is attending to the oral poetic as a lens on citizenship and as a lens on the felt experience of the state.

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Often when we look at studies of power and rule. We fail to ask, how is Ruth felt?

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How is rule embodied? What are the feelings, thoughts to which people understand citizenship,

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and that was the question that I was driven to explore while I was doing ethnographic fieldwork.

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So my fieldwork continues to most.

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It was in the region called in Pakistan.

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It is bordered by Afghanistan, China, the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.

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And specifically, I worked in the city of Gilgit and the village of Shimshon.

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So Gilgit and Shimshon are both marked. This map is quite interesting because I've kind of invisible lazed India and Pakistan from

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it after the invisible ization that the region has experienced in security paradigms,

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in nationalisms in both states. So this is the region.

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It's the only Shia majority part of Sunni dominated Pakistan.

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It is an ecologically sensitive climactic zone with several grey violent species.

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It's considered as a global biodiversity hotspot. It's home to many glaciers and mountain peaks.

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We get to that in a bit. It's also a key site of the China Pakistan economic corridor,

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which is a multibillion dollar infrastructure development and political project that is engulfing all of Pakistan.

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And it is centrally located in Gilgit, Pakistan.

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So, again, Pakistan is the site of.

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You know, people here are reduced to not just marginality and disenfranchised my disenfranchisement due to being part of the Kashmir issue,

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but also they are seen as religious subjects, border subjects, as well as development subjects.

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And the question that the book asks is, how is rule accomplished in in such a space?

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I'll begin with zooming out a little bit and talk about the cash.

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The framing of cash need within India and Pakistan. What I call effective histories of Kashmir.

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So fish meat is the essence and rationale for so much politics and for ideologies in India and Pakistan.

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We all know that.

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But what is very interesting is, is the bodily harm is the bodily vocabulary and occupying mindset in in nationalisms in both countries.

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I think ever since I was three years old, I was told that you need is the shy duck or jugular vein or, you know, Kashmir is in our bloods.

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So and in India, the reference to Kashmir is often with the word acute oung, which is the inseparable part limned or organ of the body.

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And they are contrasting positions.

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Obviously, the Indian states and Pakistani state in relation to Kashmir, in relation to even different parts of Kashmir.

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I won't have time to go into that right now. But what is common.

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I want to talk about what is common is if this flesh and body proprietory niece in the weakish meat is talked about as Llyn

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Organ and Vene and I connected to the way in which feminists in Pakistan talk about how they are reduced to flesh and body.

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So I started thinking more and more about the masculinist discourse that underlines fascist ideologies of occupation,

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which are at the core of South Asian nationalisms.

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Even the language of key players and great game, which is often used to describe gig in Pakistan, is a very masculinist language.

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So I just wanted to draw attention to how.

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Yes, you know, there is a communalist paradigm or, you know, there's a nationalist paradigm, there's a security paradigm.

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But the commonality from a feminist perspective is this masculinist rhetoric of occupation and talk and Shaddock,

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because in the name of the fishmeal call, in the name of the Kashmir cause,

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what is happening is that both countries are annihilating ashmead evil and self annihilating,

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too, with regional proxy wars in Afghanistan and Baluchistan.

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So now I'll shift to get this done. So within the larger, very toxic nationalistic paradigms of India and Pakistan.

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Give Pakistan is a curious is a curious space because within the Pakistani national imagination.

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The area was formerly known as the northern areas, the federally administered northern areas,

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and it's literally reduced to its mountains and glaciers.

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So it's an idyllic natural landscape, you know, talked about to the Karakoram Highway,

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to its bigos, through its gemstones in our geography books, growing up in Karachi, in Lahore.

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It almost melded into the physical landscape of Pakistan.

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And I argue in my book is that this contributes to unseen.

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The people of the police because the place is really reduced to an abstract space that

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is on peopled and becomes seen only through an urban bourgeois tourist imaginary,

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but also through a very strange geological geographical imagination.

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And what I argue following it, I forget the author's name Winnie chicle on the way he has theorised that G.O. body of the nation.

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I argue that killing in Pakistan is produced as the equal body of the nation in a way of reducing it to ecological essence and epitome.

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Even the name northern areas, which during my fieldwork the name was changed.

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Somewhere in the middle of it is a very cryptic geographical label.

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So somewhere in the middle of the last decade, with heightened tourism from rest of Pakistan and the name change, people realise what this place is.

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But as I go to describe in the book the legibility of the region,

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was it it's estranged and invisibly sized in remarkably colonial vs both to name through textbooks, to mapping and through the census.

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And what I argue, again, I won't be able to go into too much detail.

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But just to hint at what the fourth chapter is about is how the region itself is produced as an effect.

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Two narratives of beauty. The last chapter looks at narratives of terror.

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Again, not part of this particular talk, but I wanted to talk about reducing the region to an affect.

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It's reducing a region. To certain feelings of awe and wonder and desire, territorial desire that shape how one sees sensor's and Gristedes a region.

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So that's that's about how the region is produced within the Pakistani nationalist imaginary.

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What is interesting is that within the region, it's ruled like an internal security zone,

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which is quite eclipsed in in the terrorist kind of portrayal of the region.

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Excuse me. One word that was often used in my fieldwork and was also the sub line in a local newspaper in it is sort of the meaning behind,

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which means my land without the Constitution. So, Gilligan, Pakistan is permanently in between.

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It does not have a defined constitutional status within Pakistan.

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And for the longest time it was illegible within the Pakistani administrative paraphernalia is where they did not know how to deal with this region.

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Its judicial system, its political representative system is is neither here nor there.

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Its ruled, for the most part directly from Islamabad and is mostly militarily controlled.

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So. So does that mean it be? I mean, was the rallying cry off of people in the region?

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And we see now with the PMI army in India, with the BDM movement in Pakistan,

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how the very basic fundamental document and relationship between state and citizen is at stake.

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So a lot of India in Pakistan feels like it's without the Constitution.

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And that's what I meant earlier about many of the dynamics that I saw in Pakistan

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during my fieldwork are now resonating across across the South Asian landscape.

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So what is ironic, perhaps, is that although the son has had this in limbo status.

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What I was struck by is how people expressed their connexion to Pakistan in

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terms of Mahabad love Toka means bitter real beauty distance and Bayville fight,

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which is again disloyalty and betrayal.

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One refrain, for example, which was often used in protest and in my interviews is Pakistani Hamadi SS Outguess Archila.

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Pakistan has played with slash manipulated our emotions.

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So emotions is not just sort of an intellectual sort of theoretical apparatus that I'm using to to understand it in Pakistan.

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It was actually in my fieldwork, in my notes, SAS, which is emotions and feelings, were constantly talked about the feeling of alienation,

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the feeling of silencing what's talked about, not just in legalistic terms that we don't have rights and, you know, certain acts are unconstitutional.

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But citizenship as as as intimate betrayal of the solidarity that can give Pakistanis should ostensibly show to the region.

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In 1947, when they opted for a Muslim Pakistan as opposed to Hindu dominated Kashmir or India, Pakistan has a lot of soldiers from the region as well.

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And so this is also, you know, this dynamic would also be used to tell me, for example, we are the most loyal citizens.

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We have sacrificed our life for Pakistan. And yet look at what Pakistan does.

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Pakistan just manipulates us. I want to take this manipulation seriously.

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And what I argue is that Pakistan seemed from gigged Pakistani citizens subjects in bodgies as a state of manipulated love.

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So love becomes and this I'm talking about love as as political subjectivity.

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And love as attachment to a social and ecological space.

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Again, I won't have time to go into this, but I want to hint at how.

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Important. It is, and how interesting it has been for me to understand the geneology of love as a political emotion in South Asia.

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So I trace it to popular culture in South Asia.

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Stories of heat on just as people know Sony, my VONNE have always been metaphor's for more than human couple love.

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It's been about patriarchal authority. It's been about priestly authority.

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It's been about challenging power. And I connect that to what is happening in G.B.

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And the resistance's that I look in the book are also kind of subterranean, nearly political.

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So I look at resistance's that are often not paid attention to specially poetic activism, education and social movements and ecological resistance.

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And I talk about two of them in the stock. But first, so I've been talking about the second part of the title in the book,

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Feeling Rule, and why it's important to think about how a rule is felt.

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What is the emotional logic of oppression and of power?

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And this is significant even on the other side of Kashmir. Cyber Burma has a peace in which she called the Kashmiri as seeing being Brackett's.

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Indians do not feel or represent our sentiments. I have a message here.

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OK, you can see my slides. I just saw that message. Thank you. So delusional states.

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I am essentially talking about Pakistan and the US as delusional states,

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but we can look at this theoretical frame being more broadly in South Asia and beyond as well.

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When it comes to thinking about the state from the perspective of its border militarised regions and the most militarised terrain on the planet,

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really the word in Audu is very upset.

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And it would be amazing that he, I said, would be described as foolish, as stupid, as debased.

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I said destructive, as exceptionally arrogant, as paranoid, as hyper intelligent sized.

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For example, I would be often told Yahud do scrub and adjusting his hair.

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Every other person is a spy. I mean, I would think this is an exaggeration.

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Come on. Can we. It can be like that. And very soon I realised the extent of the overdeveloped intelligence state in Pakistan, especially in G.B.

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This is between 2005 and 2007 particularly.

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So right now it's it's far worse all over Pakistan and India as well.

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And. What is really interesting in terms of understanding this regime of intimidation and violence that is imposed on border regions, is that it also?

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Reaches the realm of the absurd in many ways.

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So, for example, and I say this in the book, that a group of special children take part in the Special Children Olympics in India and a non-profit

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organisation that sent them was visited by one of the intelligence agencies several times saying,

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why did you send these special children to India? What was your purpose?

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Who do you work for? And we have countless stories of pigeons being arrested and monkeys being arrested and,

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you know, crazy dynamics off of intelligence sized approach to politics.

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Another example is, you know,

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a non-profit organisation was doing workshops on early childhood education and talking about multiple intelligences of the child,

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how to develop multiple intelligences in a child. And there was a spy sitting in the audience saying, why are you talking about intelligence?

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You said, no, we're talking about multiple intelligences. And he's like, you're talking about the intelligence.

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So it's irrational beyond imagination.

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And those who suffer on the ground obviously deal with it with humour, but deal with it with a lot of pain and anguish.

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And my theoretical intervention here is that delusion, characterised particularly by highly militarised societies,

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is a key feature of the modern state, particularly in the context of the so-called war on terror.

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And here I'm drawing upon the work of a lot of curity of state making,

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and it takes fantasy seriously the kind of fantastic imaginations off of stage projects and of the state itself as a fantasy.

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But I think both the war on terror and the regimes of terror and what it enabled in South

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Asia and also the on the ground reflections about the state being arrogant and paranoid.

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And the examples that I was being quoted made me think differently about state making in South Asia.

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So I'm McLintock is is a is an amazing feminist terrorist.

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And her work on paranoid and bile is used at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo as exceptional prisons where

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U.S. and byul engages in fantasies of global omnipotence combined with nightmares of impending attack.

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And when I read that, I immediately thought about Pakistan. You know,

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there's a way in which she talks about the grand deal or omnipotence and belief that

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everybody's suspect and the state is constantly threatened by internal and external enemies.

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She's talking about the US empire and extraordinary prisons. And I argue and she calls them Shadowlands of Empire.

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And I argue that Pakistan has been a shadow land of empires since the Cold War.

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And this is where I use Philip McMichaels Inc comparison framework to look at state

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making transnationally and not catalyse Pakistan in the Middle East and South Asia,

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because theoretically, the US state and the Pakistani state have interlinked dynamics of military and intelligence state power.

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So there's a logic that we have to reduce Pakistan to South Asia and increasingly the Middle East.

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And then the comparative framework can only be in the so-called Third World.

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It's something I'm also I'm also challenging your by looking at a transnational analysis of Empire and State as both mutually delusional.

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Just to give you an example of the kind of surveillance and suspicion that could get Pakistanis expressed to me and here I,

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I wish to thank the journalists, the political workers, the activists, the politicians,

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the students, the faculty members who sometimes with risk to themselves really aided me in research over a period of nine months,

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over over several years in in a context that has only become worse for researchers.

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And I can talk about about that reality and what that means for scholars today.

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Later in Q&A, if it comes up, so are journalist. Maybe she adds, it is like top control.

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So many of us live in feel and are free to freely discuss anything in public.

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What if there's a spy around? Last week when I sent a report about the region to a newspaper in Down Country under a pseudonym.

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I first got a threatening warning on phone, then through an agent who came to my house.

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They do this to remind us that they know they're reading when our families are these, Katja.

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Scuse me, debased pressure is brutal. We have to ask who benefits from this system?

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By denying us our rights and holding us in fear and suspicion,

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it is the military establishment that benefits because they want to maintain their unchecked privileges.

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So the production of Gielgud Pakistan as an untrustworthy,

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treacherous space vs. the love and longing and alienation and betrayed expectations that Gilger,

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both the Stani subjects expressed to me is the kind of overlapping, overflowing emotional terrain.

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Part of that emotional terrain that I chart in the book.

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I'm going to quickly go over this because I do want to cover the poetic and ecological resistance,

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but two of the chapters in the book look at the routinisation of Intersect resentment and sectarian ization in this town.

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And here again, I connect Empire Nation and Region and offer a transnational analysis of Shia marginalisation,

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as well as an educational social movement that at least tried to challenge the sectarian project off of national Islam.

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And the argument that I make here regarding delusional states is that it's not the subjects in Pakistan are suspected.

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It's also and this is a very significant point,

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is that state making in the region produces suspicious subjects along sectarian lines or in other parts,

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maybe along ethnic lines, to divide and conquer colonial practises that disrupt regional political solidarity.

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And this would often be referred to as calculated disorder short of a conflict.

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So the idea is that by sectarian not using space, the people it but the sun are rendered.

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I rendered irrational subjects or to sectarian brimming with sectarian emotion.

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And again, this kind of religious sensibilities of people is used to reinforce apparently a neutral law and order state.

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But we all know that the military state is sponsoring the sectarian elements as well.

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So that's the kind of dynamic that I chopped in in two of the chapters in the book.

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One aspect of resistance, and then I'll just end with that, I won't have time to talk about the boy dick aspect.

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Too much is is biodiversity conservation.

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So as I mentioned earlier, Gilbert, Boston is home to several great wildlife species.

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And since the 1970s has been an object of ethic and desire, not just by national Pakistani subjects for their romantic ideas of Idlib landscapes and,

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you know, to response, but also by international conservation organisations.

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With respect to the biodiversity of the area and the reduction of biodiversity and local

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ownership and indigenous life was to protected areas in the form of national parks,

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wildlife sanctuaries, game reserves and hunting areas. I would often be told, for example, that can get.

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But this town is a living museum for wildlife.

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And this juxtaposition of how present concern for wildlife is as opposed to people was not left uncommanded in in my research.

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I want to also highlight that recently, over the last two months,

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two new books have been notified and announced and imposed without consultation from people.

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And it again reduces the region to this empty landscape, which is already there in National.

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It's already a national product and a national object. And now it's also an international object because of its.

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It's my life. So I problematise catalist notions of conservation and argue that Western notions of conservation that have

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been implemented in GIBI are rooted in by capitalist fantasies and imposed notions of empty landscapes.

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And I contrast the emotion of saving nature of compassion that is seen as the apex of effective agency,

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as opposed to local understandings of ghodrat or inbuilt mechanisms off of conservation in the region to indigenous practises.

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Again, sorry, I'm rushing. I won't have time to talk about this.

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But I'll talk I'll just mention that the Shimshon Nature Trust, which I present a case study of,

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offers an epistemic challenge to the theory and practise of global biodiversity conservation

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by challenging its fundamental tenet that that we don't believe in national parks.

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We believe in ecological sovereignty. We even own the land.

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And you participate. Why should there be community participation when you are the guests?

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You should learn from us. So there is a reversal of dynamic here.

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There's a reversal of dynamic in many ways in which people assert their dignity,

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assert their right to livelihood and assert their right to right to representation and and democratic and a democratic idea of love.

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If you like. So I'm mindful of the time and I and they and we can we can we can highlight other aspects when we have question and answers.

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Thank you. OK, I see.

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Thank you very much indeed. A most interesting and and intriguing presentation.

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I have questions like that came to me almost by the minute as I listened that we've had some questions in from listeners outside Oxford.

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Now, can you. Are you able to see them in your chest?

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Yes. I'm just. And your chequebooks.

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If you ever read them, you can maybe tell me what these are.

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Oh, that. You read the president, by the way. I will have a record later.

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I'm sorry. I'm just catching up.

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So the first question is, I wanted to get back to the arguments you made about changing the frames through which we view.

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Bill Gates focussed on the manner in which you shift from the regular nationalism friends as insightful.

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I was wondering if it would not be even more productive to play smart in areas like Millgate,

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both his son outside the frame of South Asia entirely and inside the historical frames of Asian highlands slash Zamir.

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Yeah. Yeah. Should I go ahead and answer it or.

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Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Andy. The. That's an excellent question.

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I actually in the introduction of the book, I and as well as in the fourth chapter,

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I talk about how some people, because of their marginality within Pakistan,

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would end their isolation from the mainstream, would sometimes counter their eligibility by telling me and this is an odd case,

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this is not necessarily the norm as Central Asian. So so.

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So I think I think the fact that it's at the meeting point of Central Asia and South

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Asia in in the kind of dominant notions of Central Asia and South Asia is interesting.

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But I think all these categories are political categories that are actually linked to the Cold War,

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that are actually linked to intellectual production in academia.

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So I do see value in the mountain centred discourse, which is across Nipon, across India, across Pakistan,

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particularly from an ecological stand point, particularly because of the way in which they have been objects of of dams.

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They've been objects of infrastructure projects. And they have resulted in ecological catastrophes in all of these places, including the this.

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But I'm not sure about somnia because, yeah, I think people are not trying to run away from from national participation.

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They're actually trying to find an egalitarian space within it.

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In my opinion, OK? Right. Thank you. So another question.

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So this is a this will put you on your mettle. There may be three issues with this paradigm.

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Firstly, it misses out on corroboration or contrast from the other side of the line of control.

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Second, GDP is neither a homogenous region as you present, nor was it status within the Dogra unprincipled state of JDK.

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So clear cut. Well, may I just interrupt? I just had to read the whole.

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You've written it. Fantastic. Excellent. I've published. I should be able to see it.

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This is a very short talk. It's a 300 page book.

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I will not be able to address history and.

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Yeah. And I yeah. I am not trying to say anything about the other side of it.

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You seem to stop so we can move on to the next question. No, no, no.

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I mean there. I completely take you know, this is a very contentious topic and people will be wanting or all want.

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Fine. I just I like related things which are not actually.

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What do you have to judge about? So I think that there are one or two that wanted to other sort of observations, that kind of more observations,

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you know, or questions that are not really quite pertinent to what you are trying to do, as I said.

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Well, was we just wait to see if anyone else wants to come in.

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I wonder if you would put up with a question from me, which is, you know, I looked you know,

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I was actually fascinated by the early on in your talk, the way in which you explored themes of the body.

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You know, the veins authorities have, Lindze, in the way in which a Kashmir in particular is represented.

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And, of course, you know, do you draw the connexion with the sort of eco body that the sort of urban bourgeois tourists figure imagines?

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And you make the connexion between the sort of gendered and masculine imagery

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that you see coming from Pakistan and in particular in the act of mapping.

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And, of course, in in modern discourses of nationalism, we are, as you know, we all know,

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we're very used to seeing links drawn between the nation, blood, soil and so on.

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But there is also an older discourse.

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And I wonder whether this is something that you thought about.

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I'm sure sure you will have done. There is, of course, an older discourse across the subcontinent which is rooted in humoral theory.

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You know, the idea that the idea that that states are like bodies, that different communities within a polar tier like its limbs, you know,

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that the health of the Politti is established through a correct balance between

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its various Linton's and these these understandings of the humoral body are,

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of course, have very similar, in fact, parallel lives within the sort of India within the Indic tradition and in the in the Muslim tradition.

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I mean, they you know, it's there, for example, in Abu Fasel in India, then in Vedic accounts, how societies sprang from the body of the primal man.

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And of course, it has a much wider. Life in the way in which ordinary communities understood their own bodies and thought about

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their health and their health in particular in relation to their own natural environments.

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Because the human body has a very intimate relationship, of course, with its natural environment and qualities from one crossover.

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And I wonder whether, you know.

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Do you see this older history as as laying the ground for a more powerful

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expression of the sorts of masculine and patriarchal sense that you talk about,

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you know? Or is that perhaps at the level of popular culture, which is what I would expect, a longer term persistence of these relatively on gendered?

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It seems to me humoral understandings of the body. Yeah.

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But I think. Sorry. That's a fantastic question.

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Thank you so much. I just lost my mother in an area. I'm interested in.

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And so I wondered if you. That enters into your life.

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If I can be really honest.

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The kind of nationalistic falvo and the kind of ways in which Gleam took Ashmead is made on both sides is so deeply misogynist that and open,

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so attuned to the present, frankly, that would not have the chance to explore these.

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Amazing. And it has been done in cashmere studies, the Little League Ashmead as the head in backing of Israel.

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Yes. But I think only recently have I looked at the connected histories of of nationalistic occupation.

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I mean, I think my interest comes in demilitarising solar energy from its angle.

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And. And I think the kind of lines that you are drawing are very significant and have been done.

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It's just something I've not thought about. But I think more and more about consent.

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The amazing point anthropologist utters the draws connexions between the we bushmeat is currently being even more violently militarised.

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So what did you do on the Indian side? With the with the with the meta discourse, with abuse, with notions of full of bodily violence.

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Kashmiris do what this violence bodily of. Let's not agree that the body is not just a metaphor.

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So either goes and it's a very fascinating question about connecting the violence

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done to the body and the violence of the nation at a down to Kashmiri bodies.

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Yeah. So what utter Zaghloul is that? McKillip with Kashmiri body.

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And so I'm just I'm reminded of a very powerful framing with your with your quest.

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Thank you. I shall look forward to reading your book or see you now.

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Let me just say. Have any more questions. Come in on the chance. We should look at this.

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A pertinent to your talk. This is to move this down.

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Do you see. Can you see these?

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Yes, I can. I can see this. I don't know whether there's any in particular that you want to try to discuss.

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So I'm sorry, but I'm mindful of the time because there is a separate conversation.

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Yeah. Yeah. Like you done wrong answers. I really appreciate the questions, but I'm because there are six questions in front of me.

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I don't want to either. That's a nice reflection of the interest to you.

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We're glad people have joined. Well, shall we? Shall we.

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Thank you very much then. And thank those who have joined us from outside Oxford.

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I'm sure that the notion is we'd be happy to. Does already conduct scholarly exchanges in many in many ways.

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And so mostly we'll log out and then we'll go back into our Oxford discussion.

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And if not at all, if Nonnemaker is is has it been able to join us?

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She will take the chair. Otherwise, I will be there as well in any case.