Let's go poorly. Well, good afternoon, everyone, and a very warm welcome to this fourth seminar of the term at the South Asia Connector.
But the South Asian seminar here in Oxford today, it's a very great pleasure to welcome Dr Nosheen Ali.
Dr Ali is a sociologist who's currently serving as faculty global faculty in residence at NYU.
She researches state making ecology and Muslim cultural politics in South Asia with a particular focus on Pakistan and Kashmir.
And she's going to talk to us today about her recent work, which has a very, very interesting and intriguing title.
Delusional States Love, Citizenship and Resistance in Gilgit about it's done.
And for those of you who are joining us from outside Oxford,
there will be some time at the end of Dr Ali's presentation for questions which you can send in via the chat box.
If you think you might want to ask a question.
Don't waste until the end of the presentation to send it in, because sometimes there is a little bit of a delay.
So you're you're very welcome to send in questions throughout the talk.
And Dr Ali will do her best to answer them at the end of the talk.
Before we then move to our particular focussed Oxford discussion.
So, Dr Ali, over to you. And much looking forward to your presentation.
Thank you, Polly. And thank you to the South Asia Studies Group at Oxford for this kind invitation.
It's a hard thing to give a book talk. This is probably the sixth or seventh time that I am speaking about the book.
And every time it's a cherished opportunity. So I really appreciate the audience.
The book is titled Delusional States. I'm not sure if you can see feeling rule and development in Pakistan's northern frontier.
And it looks at the part of Pakistani administered Kashmir called Gilgit, Pakistan, which is internationally considered a spot of disputed Kashmir.
As many of you know, India and Pakistan have fought several wars over the territory of Kashmir.
And what has often happened is that the identities,
the cultural politics and the social struggles of people on the ground have been
marginalised in the overall framing of the dispute as a bipartisan two party dispute.
So the book is part of a larger gershuni studies, Kashmiri scholarship, growing body of research, growing body of,
I would say, scholarly activist work, which is trying to break the intellectual line of control.
There was a time, but there was very little conversation across the line of control between scholars who work on both sides.
So I hope that the book makes a contribution to not just gig in Pakistan, which is an understudied place in the larger dispute of Kashmir,
but also in our critical understanding of nationalism, state formation, development and resistance in South Asia broadly.
One caveat before I go into the details of the doc is that often in South Asia settings, because this is a South Asia seminar,
I'm going to use the opportunity to say that Kashmir has often been at the margins of conversations in South Asia studies.
It's seen as this either political science topic for the longest time.
It would seem like that, or maybe in border studies.
I have distinct memories of going to South Asia conferences where a group of us were referred to as the Kashmir folk as if.
If we look at or if we work on Kashmir, it's necessarily just about the Kashmir conflict.
And there is a resistance, intellectual and political, to to discussing Kashmir.
Even in academic settings, because it's a it's an emotionally fraught topic.
And my book addresses that, what is often known as the heart of hostility or the emotional.
We in which particularly Indians and Pakistanis get about Ashmead.
And it looks at the emotions at stake on the ground within people who have been most marginalised
and repressed as a result of this so-called national security issue in India and Pakistan.
So the point I want to make is that the book is not just about Pakistan or Kashmir studies.
Our work as scholars off and on ASHMEAD is about challenging South Asian studies.
It's about challenging nationalism through the lens of occupation.
It's about seeing the Pakistani state and Indian state for what they reveal.
In parts of Kashmir and now what we see in India and Pakistan is actually a dynamic that a lot of us have been seeing in Kashmir for a very long time.
So this is just to say that the centrality of the region is not just because it's a region.
It should not just be regionalised, but because of the militarisation of citizenship that is unveiled.
There has become a model, sadly, for what the states are doing in India and Pakistan.
So with that, I'll start the slides. I hope that's visible.
Polly, can you see the slides? Fine. They're not sure if you were on mute, but I hope I hope people can see.
And I didn't begin with the words from a giggity point and I read it in the first Zoubi
uncle may not be a B lagom showed the immediate lucht data that showed the Ghil'ad,
but Jacek Edelsten knew he had Beja this ADC.
How may. Toward the end of Eatock of owning Dogood.
Okay. Huh. I beat the heck of I mean dogood thinking.
Huh. Well agenda up not news child dia.
I've let my tongue loose from now on, ruler of the time.
I've stopped respecting you. From now on. Am I right in complaining or.
No, my friends. Half a century and we are still in jeans.
The laws of dog laws still prevail here. They have long gone, but their system remains.
I start with the poetic medium because attending poetry festivals in Gilgit,
Pakistan soon showed to me the kind of creative resistances that people in a heavily
militarised and Soviet context resort to to express their feelings about the state.
So a central argument of my book is attending to the oral poetic as a lens on citizenship and as a lens on the felt experience of the state.
Often when we look at studies of power and rule. We fail to ask, how is Ruth felt?
How is rule embodied? What are the feelings, thoughts to which people understand citizenship,
and that was the question that I was driven to explore while I was doing ethnographic fieldwork.
So my fieldwork continues to most.
It was in the region called in Pakistan.
It is bordered by Afghanistan, China, the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir.
And specifically, I worked in the city of Gilgit and the village of Shimshon.
So Gilgit and Shimshon are both marked. This map is quite interesting because I've kind of invisible lazed India and Pakistan from
it after the invisible ization that the region has experienced in security paradigms,
in nationalisms in both states. So this is the region.
It's the only Shia majority part of Sunni dominated Pakistan.
It is an ecologically sensitive climactic zone with several grey violent species.
It's considered as a global biodiversity hotspot. It's home to many glaciers and mountain peaks.
We get to that in a bit. It's also a key site of the China Pakistan economic corridor,
which is a multibillion dollar infrastructure development and political project that is engulfing all of Pakistan.
And it is centrally located in Gilgit, Pakistan.
So, again, Pakistan is the site of.
You know, people here are reduced to not just marginality and disenfranchised my disenfranchisement due to being part of the Kashmir issue,
but also they are seen as religious subjects, border subjects, as well as development subjects.
And the question that the book asks is, how is rule accomplished in in such a space?
I'll begin with zooming out a little bit and talk about the cash.
The framing of cash need within India and Pakistan. What I call effective histories of Kashmir.
So fish meat is the essence and rationale for so much politics and for ideologies in India and Pakistan.
We all know that.
But what is very interesting is, is the bodily harm is the bodily vocabulary and occupying mindset in in nationalisms in both countries.
I think ever since I was three years old, I was told that you need is the shy duck or jugular vein or, you know, Kashmir is in our bloods.
So and in India, the reference to Kashmir is often with the word acute oung, which is the inseparable part limned or organ of the body.
And they are contrasting positions.
Obviously, the Indian states and Pakistani state in relation to Kashmir, in relation to even different parts of Kashmir.
I won't have time to go into that right now. But what is common.
I want to talk about what is common is if this flesh and body proprietory niece in the weakish meat is talked about as Llyn
Organ and Vene and I connected to the way in which feminists in Pakistan talk about how they are reduced to flesh and body.
So I started thinking more and more about the masculinist discourse that underlines fascist ideologies of occupation,
which are at the core of South Asian nationalisms.
Even the language of key players and great game, which is often used to describe gig in Pakistan, is a very masculinist language.
So I just wanted to draw attention to how.
Yes, you know, there is a communalist paradigm or, you know, there's a nationalist paradigm, there's a security paradigm.
But the commonality from a feminist perspective is this masculinist rhetoric of occupation and talk and Shaddock,
because in the name of the fishmeal call, in the name of the Kashmir cause,
what is happening is that both countries are annihilating ashmead evil and self annihilating,
too, with regional proxy wars in Afghanistan and Baluchistan.
So now I'll shift to get this done. So within the larger, very toxic nationalistic paradigms of India and Pakistan.
Give Pakistan is a curious is a curious space because within the Pakistani national imagination.
The area was formerly known as the northern areas, the federally administered northern areas,
and it's literally reduced to its mountains and glaciers.
So it's an idyllic natural landscape, you know, talked about to the Karakoram Highway,
to its bigos, through its gemstones in our geography books, growing up in Karachi, in Lahore.
It almost melded into the physical landscape of Pakistan.
And I argue in my book is that this contributes to unseen.
The people of the police because the place is really reduced to an abstract space that
is on peopled and becomes seen only through an urban bourgeois tourist imaginary,
but also through a very strange geological geographical imagination.
And what I argue following it, I forget the author's name Winnie chicle on the way he has theorised that G.O. body of the nation.
I argue that killing in Pakistan is produced as the equal body of the nation in a way of reducing it to ecological essence and epitome.
Even the name northern areas, which during my fieldwork the name was changed.
Somewhere in the middle of it is a very cryptic geographical label.
So somewhere in the middle of the last decade, with heightened tourism from rest of Pakistan and the name change, people realise what this place is.
But as I go to describe in the book the legibility of the region,
was it it's estranged and invisibly sized in remarkably colonial vs both to name through textbooks, to mapping and through the census.
And what I argue, again, I won't be able to go into too much detail.
But just to hint at what the fourth chapter is about is how the region itself is produced as an effect.
Two narratives of beauty. The last chapter looks at narratives of terror.
Again, not part of this particular talk, but I wanted to talk about reducing the region to an affect.
It's reducing a region. To certain feelings of awe and wonder and desire, territorial desire that shape how one sees sensor's and Gristedes a region.
So that's that's about how the region is produced within the Pakistani nationalist imaginary.
What is interesting is that within the region, it's ruled like an internal security zone,
which is quite eclipsed in in the terrorist kind of portrayal of the region.
Excuse me. One word that was often used in my fieldwork and was also the sub line in a local newspaper in it is sort of the meaning behind,
which means my land without the Constitution. So, Gilligan, Pakistan is permanently in between.
It does not have a defined constitutional status within Pakistan.
And for the longest time it was illegible within the Pakistani administrative paraphernalia is where they did not know how to deal with this region.
Its judicial system, its political representative system is is neither here nor there.
Its ruled, for the most part directly from Islamabad and is mostly militarily controlled.
So. So does that mean it be? I mean, was the rallying cry off of people in the region?
And we see now with the PMI army in India, with the BDM movement in Pakistan,
how the very basic fundamental document and relationship between state and citizen is at stake.
So a lot of India in Pakistan feels like it's without the Constitution.
And that's what I meant earlier about many of the dynamics that I saw in Pakistan
during my fieldwork are now resonating across across the South Asian landscape.
So what is ironic, perhaps, is that although the son has had this in limbo status.
What I was struck by is how people expressed their connexion to Pakistan in
terms of Mahabad love Toka means bitter real beauty distance and Bayville fight,
which is again disloyalty and betrayal.
One refrain, for example, which was often used in protest and in my interviews is Pakistani Hamadi SS Outguess Archila.
Pakistan has played with slash manipulated our emotions.
So emotions is not just sort of an intellectual sort of theoretical apparatus that I'm using to to understand it in Pakistan.
It was actually in my fieldwork, in my notes, SAS, which is emotions and feelings, were constantly talked about the feeling of alienation,
the feeling of silencing what's talked about, not just in legalistic terms that we don't have rights and, you know, certain acts are unconstitutional.
But citizenship as as as intimate betrayal of the solidarity that can give Pakistanis should ostensibly show to the region.
In 1947, when they opted for a Muslim Pakistan as opposed to Hindu dominated Kashmir or India, Pakistan has a lot of soldiers from the region as well.
And so this is also, you know, this dynamic would also be used to tell me, for example, we are the most loyal citizens.
We have sacrificed our life for Pakistan. And yet look at what Pakistan does.
Pakistan just manipulates us. I want to take this manipulation seriously.
And what I argue is that Pakistan seemed from gigged Pakistani citizens subjects in bodgies as a state of manipulated love.
So love becomes and this I'm talking about love as as political subjectivity.
And love as attachment to a social and ecological space.
Again, I won't have time to go into this, but I want to hint at how.
Important. It is, and how interesting it has been for me to understand the geneology of love as a political emotion in South Asia.
So I trace it to popular culture in South Asia.
Stories of heat on just as people know Sony, my VONNE have always been metaphor's for more than human couple love.
It's been about patriarchal authority. It's been about priestly authority.
It's been about challenging power. And I connect that to what is happening in G.B.
And the resistance's that I look in the book are also kind of subterranean, nearly political.
So I look at resistance's that are often not paid attention to specially poetic activism, education and social movements and ecological resistance.
And I talk about two of them in the stock. But first, so I've been talking about the second part of the title in the book,
Feeling Rule, and why it's important to think about how a rule is felt.
What is the emotional logic of oppression and of power?
And this is significant even on the other side of Kashmir. Cyber Burma has a peace in which she called the Kashmiri as seeing being Brackett's.
Indians do not feel or represent our sentiments. I have a message here.
OK, you can see my slides. I just saw that message. Thank you. So delusional states.
I am essentially talking about Pakistan and the US as delusional states,
but we can look at this theoretical frame being more broadly in South Asia and beyond as well.
When it comes to thinking about the state from the perspective of its border militarised regions and the most militarised terrain on the planet,
really the word in Audu is very upset.
And it would be amazing that he, I said, would be described as foolish, as stupid, as debased.
I said destructive, as exceptionally arrogant, as paranoid, as hyper intelligent sized.
For example, I would be often told Yahud do scrub and adjusting his hair.
Every other person is a spy. I mean, I would think this is an exaggeration.
Come on. Can we. It can be like that. And very soon I realised the extent of the overdeveloped intelligence state in Pakistan, especially in G.B.
This is between 2005 and 2007 particularly.
So right now it's it's far worse all over Pakistan and India as well.
And. What is really interesting in terms of understanding this regime of intimidation and violence that is imposed on border regions, is that it also?
Reaches the realm of the absurd in many ways.
So, for example, and I say this in the book, that a group of special children take part in the Special Children Olympics in India and a non-profit
organisation that sent them was visited by one of the intelligence agencies several times saying,
why did you send these special children to India? What was your purpose?
Who do you work for? And we have countless stories of pigeons being arrested and monkeys being arrested and,
you know, crazy dynamics off of intelligence sized approach to politics.
Another example is, you know,
a non-profit organisation was doing workshops on early childhood education and talking about multiple intelligences of the child,
how to develop multiple intelligences in a child. And there was a spy sitting in the audience saying, why are you talking about intelligence?
You said, no, we're talking about multiple intelligences. And he's like, you're talking about the intelligence.
So it's irrational beyond imagination.
And those who suffer on the ground obviously deal with it with humour, but deal with it with a lot of pain and anguish.
And my theoretical intervention here is that delusion, characterised particularly by highly militarised societies,
is a key feature of the modern state, particularly in the context of the so-called war on terror.
And here I'm drawing upon the work of a lot of curity of state making,
and it takes fantasy seriously the kind of fantastic imaginations off of stage projects and of the state itself as a fantasy.
But I think both the war on terror and the regimes of terror and what it enabled in South
Asia and also the on the ground reflections about the state being arrogant and paranoid.
And the examples that I was being quoted made me think differently about state making in South Asia.
So I'm McLintock is is a is an amazing feminist terrorist.
And her work on paranoid and bile is used at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo as exceptional prisons where
U.S. and byul engages in fantasies of global omnipotence combined with nightmares of impending attack.
And when I read that, I immediately thought about Pakistan. You know,
there's a way in which she talks about the grand deal or omnipotence and belief that
everybody's suspect and the state is constantly threatened by internal and external enemies.
She's talking about the US empire and extraordinary prisons. And I argue and she calls them Shadowlands of Empire.
And I argue that Pakistan has been a shadow land of empires since the Cold War.
And this is where I use Philip McMichaels Inc comparison framework to look at state
making transnationally and not catalyse Pakistan in the Middle East and South Asia,
because theoretically, the US state and the Pakistani state have interlinked dynamics of military and intelligence state power.
So there's a logic that we have to reduce Pakistan to South Asia and increasingly the Middle East.
And then the comparative framework can only be in the so-called Third World.
It's something I'm also I'm also challenging your by looking at a transnational analysis of Empire and State as both mutually delusional.
Just to give you an example of the kind of surveillance and suspicion that could get Pakistanis expressed to me and here I,
I wish to thank the journalists, the political workers, the activists, the politicians,
the students, the faculty members who sometimes with risk to themselves really aided me in research over a period of nine months,
over over several years in in a context that has only become worse for researchers.
And I can talk about about that reality and what that means for scholars today.
Later in Q&A, if it comes up, so are journalist. Maybe she adds, it is like top control.
So many of us live in feel and are free to freely discuss anything in public.
What if there's a spy around? Last week when I sent a report about the region to a newspaper in Down Country under a pseudonym.
I first got a threatening warning on phone, then through an agent who came to my house.
They do this to remind us that they know they're reading when our families are these, Katja.
Scuse me, debased pressure is brutal. We have to ask who benefits from this system?
By denying us our rights and holding us in fear and suspicion,
it is the military establishment that benefits because they want to maintain their unchecked privileges.
So the production of Gielgud Pakistan as an untrustworthy,
treacherous space vs. the love and longing and alienation and betrayed expectations that Gilger,
both the Stani subjects expressed to me is the kind of overlapping, overflowing emotional terrain.
Part of that emotional terrain that I chart in the book.
I'm going to quickly go over this because I do want to cover the poetic and ecological resistance,
but two of the chapters in the book look at the routinisation of Intersect resentment and sectarian ization in this town.
And here again, I connect Empire Nation and Region and offer a transnational analysis of Shia marginalisation,
as well as an educational social movement that at least tried to challenge the sectarian project off of national Islam.
And the argument that I make here regarding delusional states is that it's not the subjects in Pakistan are suspected.
It's also and this is a very significant point,
is that state making in the region produces suspicious subjects along sectarian lines or in other parts,
maybe along ethnic lines, to divide and conquer colonial practises that disrupt regional political solidarity.
And this would often be referred to as calculated disorder short of a conflict.
So the idea is that by sectarian not using space, the people it but the sun are rendered.
I rendered irrational subjects or to sectarian brimming with sectarian emotion.
And again, this kind of religious sensibilities of people is used to reinforce apparently a neutral law and order state.
But we all know that the military state is sponsoring the sectarian elements as well.
So that's the kind of dynamic that I chopped in in two of the chapters in the book.
One aspect of resistance, and then I'll just end with that, I won't have time to talk about the boy dick aspect.
Too much is is biodiversity conservation.
So as I mentioned earlier, Gilbert, Boston is home to several great wildlife species.
And since the 1970s has been an object of ethic and desire, not just by national Pakistani subjects for their romantic ideas of Idlib landscapes and,
you know, to response, but also by international conservation organisations.
With respect to the biodiversity of the area and the reduction of biodiversity and local
ownership and indigenous life was to protected areas in the form of national parks,
wildlife sanctuaries, game reserves and hunting areas. I would often be told, for example, that can get.
But this town is a living museum for wildlife.
And this juxtaposition of how present concern for wildlife is as opposed to people was not left uncommanded in in my research.
I want to also highlight that recently, over the last two months,
two new books have been notified and announced and imposed without consultation from people.
And it again reduces the region to this empty landscape, which is already there in National.
It's already a national product and a national object. And now it's also an international object because of its.
It's my life. So I problematise catalist notions of conservation and argue that Western notions of conservation that have
been implemented in GIBI are rooted in by capitalist fantasies and imposed notions of empty landscapes.
And I contrast the emotion of saving nature of compassion that is seen as the apex of effective agency,
as opposed to local understandings of ghodrat or inbuilt mechanisms off of conservation in the region to indigenous practises.
Again, sorry, I'm rushing. I won't have time to talk about this.
But I'll talk I'll just mention that the Shimshon Nature Trust, which I present a case study of,
offers an epistemic challenge to the theory and practise of global biodiversity conservation
by challenging its fundamental tenet that that we don't believe in national parks.
We believe in ecological sovereignty. We even own the land.
And you participate. Why should there be community participation when you are the guests?
You should learn from us. So there is a reversal of dynamic here.
There's a reversal of dynamic in many ways in which people assert their dignity,
assert their right to livelihood and assert their right to right to representation and and democratic and a democratic idea of love.
If you like. So I'm mindful of the time and I and they and we can we can we can highlight other aspects when we have question and answers.
Thank you. OK, I see.
Thank you very much indeed. A most interesting and and intriguing presentation.
I have questions like that came to me almost by the minute as I listened that we've had some questions in from listeners outside Oxford.
Now, can you. Are you able to see them in your chest?
Yes. I'm just. And your chequebooks.
If you ever read them, you can maybe tell me what these are.
Oh, that. You read the president, by the way. I will have a record later.
I'm sorry. I'm just catching up.
So the first question is, I wanted to get back to the arguments you made about changing the frames through which we view.
Bill Gates focussed on the manner in which you shift from the regular nationalism friends as insightful.
I was wondering if it would not be even more productive to play smart in areas like Millgate,
both his son outside the frame of South Asia entirely and inside the historical frames of Asian highlands slash Zamir.
Yeah. Yeah. Should I go ahead and answer it or.
Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Andy. The. That's an excellent question.
I actually in the introduction of the book, I and as well as in the fourth chapter,
I talk about how some people, because of their marginality within Pakistan,
would end their isolation from the mainstream, would sometimes counter their eligibility by telling me and this is an odd case,
this is not necessarily the norm as Central Asian. So so.
So I think I think the fact that it's at the meeting point of Central Asia and South
Asia in in the kind of dominant notions of Central Asia and South Asia is interesting.
But I think all these categories are political categories that are actually linked to the Cold War,
that are actually linked to intellectual production in academia.
So I do see value in the mountain centred discourse, which is across Nipon, across India, across Pakistan,
particularly from an ecological stand point, particularly because of the way in which they have been objects of of dams.
They've been objects of infrastructure projects. And they have resulted in ecological catastrophes in all of these places, including the this.
But I'm not sure about somnia because, yeah, I think people are not trying to run away from from national participation.
They're actually trying to find an egalitarian space within it.
In my opinion, OK? Right. Thank you. So another question.
So this is a this will put you on your mettle. There may be three issues with this paradigm.
Firstly, it misses out on corroboration or contrast from the other side of the line of control.
Second, GDP is neither a homogenous region as you present, nor was it status within the Dogra unprincipled state of JDK.
So clear cut. Well, may I just interrupt? I just had to read the whole.
You've written it. Fantastic. Excellent. I've published. I should be able to see it.
This is a very short talk. It's a 300 page book.
I will not be able to address history and.
Yeah. And I yeah. I am not trying to say anything about the other side of it.
You seem to stop so we can move on to the next question. No, no, no.
I mean there. I completely take you know, this is a very contentious topic and people will be wanting or all want.
Fine. I just I like related things which are not actually.
What do you have to judge about? So I think that there are one or two that wanted to other sort of observations, that kind of more observations,
you know, or questions that are not really quite pertinent to what you are trying to do, as I said.
Well, was we just wait to see if anyone else wants to come in.
I wonder if you would put up with a question from me, which is, you know, I looked you know,
I was actually fascinated by the early on in your talk, the way in which you explored themes of the body.
You know, the veins authorities have, Lindze, in the way in which a Kashmir in particular is represented.
And, of course, you know, do you draw the connexion with the sort of eco body that the sort of urban bourgeois tourists figure imagines?
And you make the connexion between the sort of gendered and masculine imagery
that you see coming from Pakistan and in particular in the act of mapping.
And, of course, in in modern discourses of nationalism, we are, as you know, we all know,
we're very used to seeing links drawn between the nation, blood, soil and so on.
But there is also an older discourse.
And I wonder whether this is something that you thought about.
I'm sure sure you will have done. There is, of course, an older discourse across the subcontinent which is rooted in humoral theory.
You know, the idea that the idea that that states are like bodies, that different communities within a polar tier like its limbs, you know,
that the health of the Politti is established through a correct balance between
its various Linton's and these these understandings of the humoral body are,
of course, have very similar, in fact, parallel lives within the sort of India within the Indic tradition and in the in the Muslim tradition.
I mean, they you know, it's there, for example, in Abu Fasel in India, then in Vedic accounts, how societies sprang from the body of the primal man.
And of course, it has a much wider. Life in the way in which ordinary communities understood their own bodies and thought about
their health and their health in particular in relation to their own natural environments.
Because the human body has a very intimate relationship, of course, with its natural environment and qualities from one crossover.
And I wonder whether, you know.
Do you see this older history as as laying the ground for a more powerful
expression of the sorts of masculine and patriarchal sense that you talk about,
you know? Or is that perhaps at the level of popular culture, which is what I would expect, a longer term persistence of these relatively on gendered?
It seems to me humoral understandings of the body. Yeah.
But I think. Sorry. That's a fantastic question.
Thank you so much. I just lost my mother in an area. I'm interested in.
And so I wondered if you. That enters into your life.
If I can be really honest.
The kind of nationalistic falvo and the kind of ways in which Gleam took Ashmead is made on both sides is so deeply misogynist that and open,
so attuned to the present, frankly, that would not have the chance to explore these.
Amazing. And it has been done in cashmere studies, the Little League Ashmead as the head in backing of Israel.
Yes. But I think only recently have I looked at the connected histories of of nationalistic occupation.
I mean, I think my interest comes in demilitarising solar energy from its angle.
And. And I think the kind of lines that you are drawing are very significant and have been done.
It's just something I've not thought about. But I think more and more about consent.
The amazing point anthropologist utters the draws connexions between the we bushmeat is currently being even more violently militarised.
So what did you do on the Indian side? With the with the with the meta discourse, with abuse, with notions of full of bodily violence.
Kashmiris do what this violence bodily of. Let's not agree that the body is not just a metaphor.
So either goes and it's a very fascinating question about connecting the violence
done to the body and the violence of the nation at a down to Kashmiri bodies.
Yeah. So what utter Zaghloul is that? McKillip with Kashmiri body.
And so I'm just I'm reminded of a very powerful framing with your with your quest.
Thank you. I shall look forward to reading your book or see you now.
Let me just say. Have any more questions. Come in on the chance. We should look at this.
A pertinent to your talk. This is to move this down.
Do you see. Can you see these?
Yes, I can. I can see this. I don't know whether there's any in particular that you want to try to discuss.
So I'm sorry, but I'm mindful of the time because there is a separate conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. Like you done wrong answers. I really appreciate the questions, but I'm because there are six questions in front of me.
I don't want to either. That's a nice reflection of the interest to you.
We're glad people have joined. Well, shall we? Shall we.
Thank you very much then. And thank those who have joined us from outside Oxford.
I'm sure that the notion is we'd be happy to. Does already conduct scholarly exchanges in many in many ways.
And so mostly we'll log out and then we'll go back into our Oxford discussion.
And if not at all, if Nonnemaker is is has it been able to join us?
She will take the chair. Otherwise, I will be there as well in any case.