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Great. Yeah, they won't welcome everyone to this, the first session on off more than I would say South Asia seminar and thank you very much,

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everyone for joining us and welcome to this seminar series. My name is Umar Brydon.

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I'm department, a lecturer here at Contemporary South Asia programme Oxford School of Global Studies,

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and it is my privilege to welcome and introduce our professor Sue Regards,

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Bob Modi and Professor Hugo Godin's today in this seminar series for the talk titled Citizenship, Publicness and the Politics of Inclusive Democracy.

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Of Bhagwati is a public sociologist and professor of sociology at the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences at Bombay.

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He was also recently awarded New India Foundation's Fellowship to work on his book, titled Is Postcard City Possible?

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And he's also author of Civility against Caste and co-editor of Civility in Crisis with Coverage.

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Hugo is a senior lecturer in sociology and co-director of the Centre for South Asia Studies programme at the University of Edinburgh.

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His research focuses on interplay between caste politics and Dalit movements in Tamil Nadu.

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He is author of Untouchables, Citizens and Fantasy in Parliament,

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as well as numerous articles and chapters on identity, violence, space, cost and politics.

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Sudhakar and Hugo will discuss their recent edited volume,

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titled Civility in Crisis and offer insights into the central concept of civility and the contribution of the volume.

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The talk will be around 40 to 45 minutes and we will open the floor for question and comments after that.

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So if you have any questions, please type them in chat box or Q&A and we will take them after the talk.

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So to continue. Thank you very much once again for joining us today and over to you.

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Thanks so much. And, Claire, I understand you're going to be managing slides for us.

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So if you want to brilliant the magic of of film, great to see so many people here,

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including several names that I recognise really showed me that it can't be that impersonal.

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One of the great things about someone who is actually chatting to people after the event,

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but thanks for the very kind introduction to than I have been working together for many, many years from an established double act.

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But we haven't practised this, so apologies if the scenes show.

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I said that I would start off and I wanted to start off largely so that I could acknowledge three accounts lead on this project.

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But also, I'm going to set the scene before we move on to discussing the central concepts of the book and giving you a sense of what it covers.

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The book itself comes out of a long running working relationship that started formally in 2012,

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when we got a UK TV grant enabling colleagues at the University of Edinburgh and

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Tata Institute every account that was to work together and share ideas and come up

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with new concepts that led to one volume from the margins to the mainstream and

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subsequently led to this ferry account was the driving force behind this volume,

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not only in terms of organising, putting things together, getting a workshop which led into the book, but also intellectually civility and crisis.

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For those of you who know his work will not be surprised to learn, it emerges out of his first book, Civility against Cost,

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and we'll return to why we think the concept of stability is so central and so important and a little bit today.

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What we hope to do in this talk is give you a flavour of the arguments are central to this volume and of course, trade you to go out and buy a copy.

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OK, next slide, please, Clare. The starting point for the volume, as with much of our work, are the insights of DR.

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The breadth. We're all familiar with his insight that, you know, we're all familiar with the line that India is the world's largest democracy,

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it's trotted out time and time again in order to persuade us of such things in order to situate India in a certain political context.

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But long back at the outset of the Republic, Ambedkar warned that democracy was being implanted on potentially on fertile soil from the very outset.

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He pointed towards the fragility of the construct of democracy and argued that the

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social dimensions of politics had to be taken into account and that if they weren't,

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then the whole enterprise could collapse.

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Democracy, because work shows very clearly cannot ever be merely a set of institutions or formal political arrangements.

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It has to involve a sea change in social relations and values and attitudes and the quotes on the slide here.

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You'll probably all be very familiar with capture their sense of the contradictions between social conservatism and political equality.

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The roots of democracy from babka lie not in government, parliamentary or other institutions,

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but in social relationships in the terms of associated life between the people who form a society.

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And if those aspects that are central to this for you, the failure to align institutions with social norms and relations are all too evident today.

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Next slide, please. And this brings us to the context of the volume and a sense of democracy increasingly in peril.

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And in thinking about this for the introduction, we pointed to a number of key areas which are worthy of attention and which need to be considered,

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and we can maybe return to them in the discussion.

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The first is the violence of indifference, and what we mean by that is the way in which people may not intend to cause harm to any particular person.

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They may not seek to inflict physical damage on anything or person, but through neglect, through a failure to consider implications.

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They nevertheless result in untold harm. We feel that very clearly during the pandemic,

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with the plight of casual labour laid off overnight and forced to trek thousands of miles in order to reach the safety of home.

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We saw that in the horrendous suffering of Stan Swamy before he died of COVID imprisoned.

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Despite many pleas for clemency, many pleas for urgent medical attention.

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We see that in the continued incarceration of our friend and colleague on a telephone day,

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we see that in the routine neglect of the sufferings faced by cleaners by Safaricom and current Jaffrey across India,

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the way in which deaths in manholes rarely occasioned the sort of outpouring of anger that we ought to expect.

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All of them are clear examples of the violence of indifference and speak to a lack of civility,

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a lack of civic engagement and sense of fraternity in the Indian Republic.

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But. Exclusions and exclusionary violence are not simply the result of indifference.

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Some are actively constructed through political rhetoric and through exclusionary policies such as the CAA, as we've seen recently.

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And so one of the things we look at in the volume is the way in which politics are framed and discussed and the way in which policies are framed,

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such that they include or exclude certain categories of people which look at the ways in which the institutions which are meant to guarantee equality.

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All too often fail in that regard. One of the clearest ways in which they fail is in the arena of caste and on the fly.

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There you have the picture of the young man in Gujarat who is set upon and beaten for skinning a dead cow.

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Brilliant, brilliant insight into caste youth caste structures is resting on ascending scales of reverend and descending scales of contempt,

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and these are all too clear today and interactions structured around caste identities.

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Both his work on caste and his work on communal legislative speak for the way in which communities may be marginalised and excluded.

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Back in 2005, I spoke of untouchable citizens when I was writing about Dalit movement in Tamil Nadu.

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What I meant to counter by that term was the paradox the impossibility of full citizenship.

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When some group, some people are still treated as lesser beings as unequal as less worthy of dignity and respect.

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Majoritarian politics and politics, the volume argues,

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consistently undermined the principle of social equality and the trust, which are at the heart of the project of stability,

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rather than focussing on political measures and performance is therefore in this volume, we structured our analyses around this central concept.

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And given that he was the intellectual lead on the concept at this point,

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I'm going to pause and let my partner Sylvia talk through the key virtues of the concept.

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You can move on to the next slide, please. Right.

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Can you hear me? Thanks, Hugo.

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So. Engaging with the idea of civility,

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like you will see his own work on on on the problem of citizenship in India and the purely manifestation of this problem in marriage forms is

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something that that we engage in have engaged through our work in detail and what this volume intends to kind of take this forward and civility.

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As I said, concept helps us also question several of of of the problems that may emerge with the way we engage and conceptualise Indian democracy.

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So before I make that case on on why civility in brief I will talk on, you know, what is civility, at least how we approach it?

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So as we all know, civility itself has has had a very uneasy history and it evokes a passionate kind of reactions as well.

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So because there is a long tradition of using civility to silence dissent, excluding people and issues from public discussions,

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as Shadi argues, and promoting civility can close down debates, often recasting disagreements in terms of etiquette and manners.

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Silencing heterodox views and turning disputes of passion and idealism in this

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volume of the new civility is something that is definitely not politeness.

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So the civility here, we have worked towards understanding it mainly as a social political process and also the

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politics of politics that challenges lack of public ness and commitment to public life,

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equality and justice in society. So as opposed to politics of civility that oppress and exclude and limit the public to private groups,

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for instance, costs religion at these men heterosexual.

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There are numerous projects of progressive civilities which push the boundaries and the meanings of public life towards inclusivity and universality.

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Civility does not need to flow from state or courts, therefore,

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and pressures for political civility often come from margins and occasionally from bottom up.

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Campaigns, for instance, have been centred on the construction of new norms pertaining to human rights and have held non-reality states to account.

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We begin, therefore, by engaging more with the idea of civility and what it is and what it is not,

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and why civility is central to democratic governance.

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Can we please move to the next? So.

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The civility is generally lost in translation in non-Western contexts are limited to

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its normative deliberation or scholarly engagement on civility in India is missing,

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largely due to misgivings about authority, the scholarship and liberal liberal moorings attached to the very idea of civility.

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It is helpful, therefore, to rescue civility, both theoretically and conceptually from some of these misgivings.

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While we recognise the nature of civility and its potential misuse as a discourse of power and constructive engagement,

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dominance, violence and exclusion, we make a case for the recovery of civility as a philosophical idea and as

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an analytical tool to advance a deeper understanding of the problems facing.

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So we recall and advance a few arguments here,

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and these are laid in like four or five points to clearly point out our own argument and directions of our war.

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So we suggest first, that civility is not a western or Christian idea, nor is it essentially a call into this implicit or implicit predict,

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although discourses of civility were used to justify the subjugation of uncivilised populations.

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Second, civility cannot be understood merely as a product of capitalism or limited to liberal society of individuals.

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That individualism knocks down. Community and tradition toward civility is not simply politeness or face-saving

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behaviour or rule and activity that does not mean much for individuals.

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Civility is not synonymous with civil society.

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Violence Civil society represents the normative and association form that is essential for making procedural democracy work.

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Civil society may still lack civility and the democracy by void of justice and equality.

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Finally, we need civility is dialogue and seeks wider and greater.

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It's not static or rigid and continues to be a universal project, despite its paradoxical nature of.

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Finally. Did any legal authority are critical in making the period of civility work?

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However. These are also based on the long, drawn out changes in social relations,

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and so what we also need to look at ideas and we need to look at ideas and practises that.

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That cultivate incivility, says witness that that's also important, therefore it's so, so, so study of civility also needs to look at incivility.

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Go to the next slide, please. All right.

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Of Snowden, I think the previous one. So.

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So. Why civility of.

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Now, one of the important motivations that did come to my own work was some of the post-colonial scholarship that suggests that,

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you know, Indian democracy is radically different and therefore any any project that is universal in nature may make little sense.

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In the study of Indian democracy, while the government is itself very appealing,

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the idea was also to look at, you know, civility and its universal manifestations in one way,

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which would help us understand the local forms of incivility and therefore localised struggles of of,

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you know, universal ideals of equality, citizenship and indeed civility.

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So you know, what we suggest is that democracy and its success can very often be reduced to

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political institutions and procedures and beyond its formal institutional mechanisms,

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whether democracy like he was suggested, has social political meanings and has.

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Gary, the possibility that that majority might die might denies minorities.

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Now what? We have seen over a bit of time, you know, in the last few years,

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especially the coming in of Citizenship Amendment Act, the very idea of citizenship being being constructed around,

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around, around religion, at least that's what it tells us is, yes,

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very localised nature of citizenship that revolves around community collective identities.

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But it also points to the very normalisation of of, for instance,

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of the othering of Muslims demonising Muslims and which becomes part of this vernacular form of democratic project.

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So the study of civility in India in has been considered, for instance,

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as a lost cause by some post-modern approaches that tend to attribute most of the political ills of individualism and

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instrumental rationalism to the West by locating community and political society at the heart of democracy in the East.

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Besides downplaying several problems of civility that emerged within the idea of community in India,

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such approaches simply demolished universal or biological possibilities of civility.

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What is lost isn't going to stop understanding of democracy, which no one the important papers in our volume from the detritus thought and

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the biological nature of civility that is central to any of this democracy.

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The promise and prospect of equal citizenship requires an erosion of old certainties and structures and creation of new norms and institutions,

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no matter where it is introduced to.

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So what we see here is. Especially in the study of of of past and Indian democracy,

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the idea of civility can help us engage with with what the problems and possibilities of equal citizenship.

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So as as, for instance, when it comes to study of extended caste, and Lynch had argued this very strongly that for untouchables,

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India in one sense remains an uncivil democracy because insofar as the promise of civil democracy is unfulfilled

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and they remain uniquely victimised by the many forms of uncivil violence that have historically been deadlocked,

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and we have various studies, including the recent one by Sonia Fuchs with which brings out this the very nature of Indian state,

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caste, embodiment of state and what it means for my of support groups.

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So civility as a concept can help us in foregrounding social political meetings of them and

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also understanding incivility and how it affects the possibility of citizenship publicness.

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So what this is what I had argued in my first book of Civility against caste, part of my body.

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But you went all the elements of the basis, and one of the key arguments that I made was,

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we have this paradox in India of a book of democracy to pursue democracy that is vibrant, that seems working.

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However, it it also had in it.

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It's based on, you know, the. Civility as something that is uncommon since what is the paradox of democracy and low civility?

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So. So what we did here was to kind of, you know, get more scholars to engage with the problem of civility and the nature of Indian democracy.

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Oh, fear and the next slide kind of bring these aspects in for discussion.

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Let me go to the next slide. Yeah. She will.

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Great, thanks for your time.

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I think many of these issues are to the fore, as mentioned earlier in the interplay between notions of civility and the continuing executions of cost.

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Indeed, I recently read a book Policing Matters by the Camorra,

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which notes how the project of policing in India is wedded to notions of caste identity and caste communities.

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We've known for a long time that the police are drawn from particular castes, which you know the interplay,

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the ways in which caste communities are constructed around projects of policing and the policing of boundaries to a full in the free papers here.

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Shamika highlights the caste exclusions built-in to project of civility.

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And one of the most progressive states of India, which is Kerala.

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And her chapter problem at times is the myth of a caste free association or public.

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She highlights and looking at public libraries of so-called public libraries and looking at interactions between different groups.

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She highlights how public spheres operate without meaningful cross caste interaction.

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And she notes that sociology tends to occur within particular neighbourhoods, which are shaped,

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governed and controlled by caste, and which she aptly refers to as a private public.

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The spatial dimensions of spatial mapping of caste on to community and onto local,

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which have long been a feature of caste life, in other words, continues and shaped for people.

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You get to meet the people you get to encounter and the networks that are part of your very everyday life.

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In other words, where you live,

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who you interact with and how you engage with others are part and parcel of the speciality of sexual relations in India.

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And Rowena Robinson, in her chapter, takes us a little bit further.

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She's working mainly with Christians in Tamil Nadu,

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and she points out that this affects how we define trust and just what we mean by trust in a context marked by different a marked by caste exclusion.

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Her starting point is that Dalit converts are denied the dream of equality that the escape from caste promised for them.

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We know this from the fact that they are excluded, for example, from the welfare provisions provided by the state.

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So when we speak of Dalits, we tend to include Christian Dalits when we speak of scheduled castes expressly excluded from that formulation.

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As for the library, projects discussed by Savarkar Voting notes,

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how Christian educational institutions and David Moss's work shows this very clearly as well.

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Typically reproduce the societal divisions of casting class, rather than creating a space where the differences could be overcome.

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And in addressing this position of a minority within a minority,

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Rowena draws on Ambedkar conceptualisation of fraternity fraternity in some way could be a synonym for civility in the way it's discussed,

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and Rowena argues that both CA and bed fraternity in everyday engagements amongst citizens the

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thoughts of everyday engagements which show worker shows tend to be confined to caste groups.

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And she argues that we often see as Ambedkar driving on liberal learning from the West,

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and we know that Patkar did two degrees in the US and UK, but Rowena points out that actually.

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In the way in which it's formulated,

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it's unshackled from its Western and Christian determinations and is repositioned as the link between national integration and social justice.

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And it's basically about civility of trust and highlighting the importance of trust in

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a context marked by by both by differences which lock people into particular groups.

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So that is the promise of America's constitution.

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That is the promise of his project of fraternity.

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But sadly, severe can't work, and it's probably just as well.

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I'm discussing this. Otherwise you take a whole paper himself.

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Free accounts work shows that claims to universalism and cosmopolitanism made by contemporary associations actually belie the ideal of fraternity.

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They mask an underlying ethic of social closure and segmentation.

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They are in many ways about the caste politeness, which Sylvia has brilliantly talked about elsewhere,

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rather than meaningful engagement, interaction and a widening of networks and horizons Hindu cosmopolitanism.

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As he terms, it facilitates conjoined living and is allows people to live next to others, allows people to rub shoulders on the buses and investment,

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but is based on an anxiety towards strangers and which fundamentally affects the possibilities of dialogical communication.

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It facilitates modernity by allowing people to get on with things.

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But it does not allow progress with old territory and urban social life.

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So we end up with a contemporary manifestation of the caste private public.

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Such savage talks about manifest in such caste associations.

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So what we see here is the way in which the projects of stability run up against the clock for.

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Time and again and a central project of civility is to create.

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Trust between different groups, if we can move on to the next slide, please.

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Then we can examine these in somewhat greater depth. Sorry, I can't.

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You're right. So thank you both. So like the the last three papers and the question they race,

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and Rowena makes this very strong and important point of how this idea of threat from Ambedkar is

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something that would be a key book of place for us to think of the challenges that Indian faces and how,

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you know, civility that fought if approached to fraternity and the problems of the making of equality in Indian democracy joins us again

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brings us to the problem that that dialogue as such is difficult today and that as a volume emphasises that civility is process.

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You're logical and open ended and it is.

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It is this process that leads and takes us towards greater civility.

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So, so the other three important chapters here.

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One is by Indrajit, drawing on a distinction genesis of democracy and liberalism.

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I'm going to stick imaginations of dignity in Bihar. Now what we see here is, again, you know,

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a criticism of liberal liberalism inspired theories or political approach to political society centred approach to democracy,

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and a case that he makes to understand how someone can make a case for appreciating agonistic

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empathy of how he highlights the contentious ways in which ideas of social justice and equality

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are advised civility in this reading and be rigid and firm and must be analysed by reference

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to its geographical dimensions and to its taste amongst different segments of given society.

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Another very important paper, which is also very contemporary and related to the question of citizenship,

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especially the Citizenship Amendment Act superset, but conversion to discuss the citizenship status of no children.

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Migrants from East Bengal to reveal the limitations of post partition citizenship regimes in India in highlighting

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the selective nature of citizenship claims scenario shifts our understanding beyond religion and look,

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its cost at the centre of Indian nationalism and associated incivility is facing most of the rest the people.

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The chapter is titled To Be a Hindu Citizen.

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It is like the title of the book, but it's very telling us of the times and the nature of Indian descent when when majority embodies the nation.

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Citizenship itself is around revolving around the idea of religion and the citizenship, he argues.

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How the Citizenship Amendment Act shatters Indian claims to have afforded equal citizenship to all at independence.

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He reveals how citizenship myth rests on solutions while opening up possibilities of equality or some.

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And another paper here is by Menangle,

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who offers a positive assessment of the prospects of quality and shipping a paper on debates around gender and sexuality.

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So drawing on the process of dialogue that enable queer and feminist groups to work past their differences,

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she looks at the possibilities of what she calls as trans words and politics in the construction of more civil society,

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most of society's borrowing from Ambedkar and more recent theories.

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She emphasises the need to engage with difference by being conscious of difference and disadvantage.

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So. You go your next lines.

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And in many ways, we probably should have ended with that paper,

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which holds out the promise of trust and a sense of how we might move beyond the intractable, intractable problems of cost exclusions.

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But the two of us are old cynics. And so actually what we turn to and in the final few chapters are groups who are working towards change groups

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who are engaged in processes of negotiation in order to highlight the issues that arise in these processes.

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So we're very lucky to have a chapter from Amitabh Bachchan's book An Uncivil City, which Richard kindly allowed us to take in.

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And it's great to have it, not least because COP26, the climate summit is on at the moment,

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and this is one of the few contributions which addresses the issue of environmental change and politics in India.

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And so I'm just looking at activists looking at forms of environmental politics and change.

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And yet she notes how forms of engagement reproduce systematic problems of a lack of trust and an inability to speak beyond boundaries.

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Ambedkar, as you will doubtless all know, famously discussed, discussed Village India as a think of localism as a den of ignorance and so urban

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India as a potential means of escape from such caste bound ways of operating.

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He placed his hopes in that sense in the modern city, but like other contributors, turn notes how exclusive fantasies of stability.

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May be reproduced in weigh in and how activists operate.

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She notes how the democratising policies of the city may often be applied in an impassioned critique of the kerbing of public spaces.

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One of the few opportunities where people can meet together can work in tandem rather than seeing each other across the divide.

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She argues that our collective life is diminished when we stop participating in an embodied way in something larger than ourselves.

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With the current government, we've seen a steady erosion of the spaces for communal and collective action and protests.

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You've seen a steady erosion of the spaces for dissent.

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And yet, as we just showed so powerfully, it is these spaces where people can meet together and offer the clearest route to a more civil engagement.

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Encapsulated in her work is the necessity of viewing civility as a process and reminding us,

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as does the work of no alliance, that welfare may be a process of civilisation, of a process towards civility.

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It is not a linear path. It is not an inevitable or seamless route towards progress, and it can at times be reversed.

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We can lose the gains we've made and end up in more antagonistic formations.

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James Maynard, drawing on his decades long work on fieldwork and in rural India, offers another insight here.

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And he speaks about intercostal accommodations and minimal civility,

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and what he's doing here is showing how there have been significant changes to social relations in India.

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So you speak to activists and I've done this many times, you especially Dalit activists in India, and I'll tell you nothing's changed.

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And Jim takes issue with this. And he says, Look, there have been huge changes.

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There have been significant changes not seen, not least in the fact that abuses will no longer go unremarked upon.

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Abuses will be challenged, they will be highlighted and they will often are seen in the picture their occupation protests.

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So there have been broad shifts in processes of caste interaction across the country.

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But while he notes, in fact, increasingly. Upper caste groups or dominant fruits seek to negotiate and compromise around contentious issues.

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Now, on the one hand, this marks an acknowledgement of diminishing power,

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the possibility of ignoring, neglecting or brushing an issue under the carpet.

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So they have to come to the table, which is an advance towards a more stable social sphere.

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But the process is neither perfect nor complete, and it often involves humiliations and betrayals.

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The dollar activists I interviewed in Tamil Nadu were more upset than anything by their own, championing their own politicians,

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those whom they had followed for decades, engaging in forms of what they saw as everyday corruption.

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His gems chapter speech, therefore contested and complex process by which social life may be rendered more civil,

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but it speaks to the difficulties of that process as well.

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It is going to involve difficult compromises. It is going to involve uncomfortable negotiations, and it may involve a sense of betrayal along the way.

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But what the process shows us is that we have moved away from the sort of rigid,

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hierarchical model of some textbook for at least and are increasingly forced to engage in war and reject calls.

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The agonistic of democracy. Next slide, please.

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And. What these papers show is that, you know, these are contested processes.

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And we felt that it was important to raise questions,

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we felt that it was important to stress that we didn't see this volume as the last word on the subject by any means.

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And so we invited Sylvia Collins colleague Ramesh Bevvy,

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who was excellent work on Drummond's and is part of a current trend of studying the privilege, which I think is long overdue.

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And Ramesh engages critically with the volume and raises questions for further

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research and question for us to reflect on in a really productive and constructive,

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engaged engagement with the contributions in the volume.

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And she says it begins by asking, OK, what does civility bring to the table?

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And engages with the ideas that we can't have just talked us through.

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And he encourages us to think through the substance of civility, which I think we fail to bring out in the initial introduction,

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but which I think we've seen in the talk here and in engaging with Ramesh.

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I think it becomes clear that what we have is a sense of fraternity and better sense as the bedrock of civility in the Indian context.

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So engaging not just with the concept of civility, but with the concept of fraternity.

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And it's also an encouragement to think about the relationship between civility and larger resource issues.

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How does this map onto welfare and resource distribution?

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And I think that here the work of Jim meinem and others is critical because what general discussion of processes of negotiation,

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interaction and political exchange shows is a population who refuses the apathy

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that may have characterised them in the past and will demand access to services.

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It's telling that Jim's work for clearly shows the National Rural Employment Guarantee

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Act and rigour worked best in those states where it was monitored by Civic Act,

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which was monitored by activists who would make sure that it was delivered on time and that the pay was distributed.

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So the process of stability can, we believe, ultimately lead to greater, better,

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more accountable and transparent welfare and resource distribution, too?

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But again, we're not here to bang the civility drum in and of itself.

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We we agree with Ramesh that we need to bring it into conversation with other approaches.

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We think that the lens of civility allows us to look at the ways in which these issues of a lack of trust,

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these issues of exclusionary communities and the move towards a more equal a democratic polity.

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We think this reality brings an insight into these processes that others do not, but we do not and considerably approach.

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And so we welcome people engaging with this work and look forward to your comments.

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So to conclude, I'll hand over to survey a condom if we could up the next slide, please.

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I thought that was the last last legs. So, so, so basically, you know, kind of summary of what we have been been discussing here is just the while.

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While the aspiration towards larger or greater civility is something that drives this volume and the contributions,

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it is definitely not in a delectably process.

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But inevitably, what we need to understand is and this is something that has come through my own research with the way Gostin do,

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no associations in Bombay that.

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That the making of individual subjectivity or modern kind of subjectivity is in urban areas, lack of lack of any adventure.

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Are they are constantly kind of concerned with with the cost as one of the important pieces of the making of this urban citizenship.

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So what we need to also look at and understand is that this persists where simply these constant and it it is is has to be at least biological,

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and it is also an evidence to process.

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We need to also distinguish, first of all, we need to recognise that a top down approach is also civilising mission.

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It's much about it.

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For instance, is it's an interesting scheme of the government of India, which in one sense demands practise of civility from below.

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If you listen to some of the speeches of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

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Did they carry a lot of quality agenda, but in one of his advertisements on on this, but you might a point here is that,

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you know, no power in the world can make India dirty if Indians decide to keep it clean.

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So, so and of course, we have seen a lot of this kind of demands from public, even in times of crisis.

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But as it's not always met, but you know. A compassionate response from speech.

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So, so the what what we see is we need to look at civility more broadly, how it flows on top,

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but how the demands of civility from below really are very important in making of this fraternity

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distrust across communities and lived kind of emancipatory citizenship possible in one sense.

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So very important again to to move beyond politeness,

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but also study politeness as something that hinders civility and not confuse politeness for civility.

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So, so we will conclude here. I think you also ran out of time.

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So. Thank you so much. You go unless you want to add something.

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No, I think that's going to be a thanks very much. And, you know,

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I think those points are illustrated in the two photos of Modi picking up a broom and pretending to be civilised have opposed to the Askar,

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who say that the sky country and the land who say, actually, we're going to burn the baskets, which are the marker of our trade.

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And as we said at the outset, actually the move towards civility is often advanced more by grassroots movements such as S.K. than top down processes,

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which may pay lip service to the concept without actually engaging in it in any meaningful detail.

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But yes, we look forward to your questions. Look forward to any comments. Look forward to your engagement.

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Thank you very much.

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So we can thank you for this excellent talk and opening up this discussion on the complex relationship between civility, citizenship and democracy.

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We will now open for question and answer session, and please do raise your hand to ask a question or type your question in the chat box.

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As as people are gathering, their thoughts can very quickly ask a.