1 00:00:00,610 --> 00:00:05,380 Well, thank you so much for inviting me and for hosting the seminar. 2 00:00:05,380 --> 00:00:14,890 I've been following, of course, the rich in the tradition of intellectual honesty at Oxford, particularly in South Asia. 3 00:00:14,890 --> 00:00:22,180 And I'm really glad that I see a lot of senior members here. I know Fassel has been, has not, never been directly my teacher, 4 00:00:22,180 --> 00:00:26,980 but has been a teacher in the field of intellectual history because we follow his work 5 00:00:26,980 --> 00:00:32,950 and learn from him and other senior members who were here just before I started. 6 00:00:32,950 --> 00:00:37,690 Just a little bit about the book, the context of the book. 7 00:00:37,690 --> 00:00:45,790 This is primarily this book is written in primarily the polemic with such a but popular form of writing. 8 00:00:45,790 --> 00:00:53,920 And the reason for that was partly because of the conditions under which this book was written. 9 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:04,270 I was in the UK for my Ph.D., and once I returned to Pakistan, I made the mistake of repeating some of the things I had learnt in the UK. 10 00:01:04,270 --> 00:01:08,920 So you join a public sector university. You hold steady circles. 11 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:15,280 Reading groups encourage students to raise difficult questions. 12 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:25,450 But this was happening at a time when there was a creeping secret martial law taking place in Pakistan. 13 00:01:25,450 --> 00:01:40,120 This is 2016 17. Dissent was being crushed under the title of the war that is reinvigorated war on terror and to keep this story short. 14 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:48,550 Universities were seen as the primary battlegrounds of this new hybrid war that the state was fighting. 15 00:01:48,550 --> 00:01:55,870 It was that the claim was that the state is no longer at war, only militarily. 16 00:01:55,870 --> 00:01:59,620 But there is now a war of ideas, 17 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:09,640 and the attempt is to to play with the minds of the people and they are academics who are misguiding the youth of the country. 18 00:02:09,640 --> 00:02:14,500 This is a trove, of course, that's been used that's maybe pleasingly used all over the world. 19 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:21,630 In Pakistan, it just has perhaps has more severe consequences. 20 00:02:21,630 --> 00:02:27,570 So universities became these these battlegrounds and other than the physical 21 00:02:27,570 --> 00:02:32,640 repression against students who are not allowed any representation on campuses, 22 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:39,570 professors came under a lot of scrutiny as well. You may know that last year, in March, 23 00:02:39,570 --> 00:02:50,050 the University of Management Sciences tried to hold a conference on Bangladesh to commemorate 50 years of the of the break up of Pakistan. 24 00:02:50,050 --> 00:02:59,110 And it was remarkable that that conference led to an incredible backlash from the 25 00:02:59,110 --> 00:03:06,760 country's right wing to the extent that Rangers' Best was sent with the university, 26 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:16,300 the vice chancellor was stretch and eventually the conference, which was, by the way, mostly a Zoom conference, had to be cancelled. 27 00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:22,180 So even 50 years after this event, you can see how history has this presence in Pakistan, 28 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:26,810 this almost dramatic presence where it has to be perpetually denied as well. 29 00:03:26,810 --> 00:03:33,040 Everyone is an aberration. The general march of of Pakistan's development. 30 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,240 But at the same time, its presence is felt through heavily. That cannot be thought. 31 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:49,240 Any mention cannot be tolerated. And I remember when I was given a warning I was in the political science department that the 32 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:55,630 former Christian College in Lahore and a member of the intelligence came up to me and said, 33 00:03:55,630 --> 00:04:03,460 You know, we're OK with whatever you teach, but we just have one request. 34 00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:17,380 Don't discuss politics in your class. And I was like, You know, it's I'd be happy to honour this request, except that I teach political science. 35 00:04:17,380 --> 00:04:25,010 So just guide me into how I can teach political science without discussing any formal politics in classrooms. 36 00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:35,380 Anyway, I was amongst a number of academics who was fired from my post, and right now there's a unwritten ban on hiring me. 37 00:04:35,380 --> 00:04:47,170 And of course, a sedition case was also put against me and other academics and thinkers who were pursuing similar trajectories. 38 00:04:47,170 --> 00:04:56,170 So I guess this is that this is the kind of authoritarian context in which I thought it was important to 39 00:04:56,170 --> 00:05:04,120 write a book like this just to show just to kind of trace the roots of authoritarianism in Pakistan, 40 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,800 but also make a certain kind of a political statement that, 41 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:18,760 you know, despite this kind of censorship, there are people the publishers, my publisher, the WHO runs for the books was brave, 42 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:27,730 brave enough to publish this book because many publishers were scared of publishing anything in Pakistan that has to do with the military. 43 00:05:27,730 --> 00:05:31,630 So it was a statement that there are people who are still willing to do stand up, 44 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:38,920 and the people across the country is also doing it at being a much heavier price than any of us have. 45 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:45,670 So with this background, so for today's discussion, I'll just talk about three teams. 46 00:05:45,670 --> 00:05:54,340 I mean, this book is called eight pieces on Authoritarianism, but I think today we'll discuss three salient features that I think are important in 47 00:05:54,340 --> 00:06:02,920 there in understanding the nature of authoritarian rule in contemporary Pakistan. 48 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:14,240 The first is. Has to do with this what I call a permanent state of emergency in Pakistan. 49 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:24,980 You know, Pakistan one difference, one way of differentiating Pakistan from India or from other countries that do have a Republican tradition, 50 00:06:24,980 --> 00:06:37,460 is that even up to today, there's not even a minimal agreement on how to run the country, the form in which the state will function. 51 00:06:37,460 --> 00:06:47,120 Even today on on social media, the trends taking strike was happening, saying, You know, we need the presidential system in Pakistan. 52 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,540 There's also discussion about having Shari'a, 53 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:59,990 having military dictatorships and and the repeated interventions of the military has meant that we do not have that that 54 00:06:59,990 --> 00:07:11,670 context of that minimal agreement that could allow for certain qualities of certain predictability or certain routine. 55 00:07:11,670 --> 00:07:19,080 Of complex, which is why the sense of emergency, which you know, in order to this massive, 56 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:25,140 super delicate situation is what remains one of the most invoked kind of phrases in 57 00:07:25,140 --> 00:07:30,990 Pakistan's political theatre that Pakistan is going through this terrifying moment. 58 00:07:30,990 --> 00:07:41,220 It's surrounded by enemies. It's under threat of destabilisation, and hence it requires extraordinary measures for protecting. 59 00:07:41,220 --> 00:07:47,580 And this then brings me to this argument about the crisis of sovereignty. 60 00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:59,990 Pakistan, you know? Terrorists have over the past 50, 60 years there's been a lot of discussion on how even in our modern times, 61 00:07:59,990 --> 00:08:08,690 political theology is extremely important for keeping any country together, for keeping any political community together. 62 00:08:08,690 --> 00:08:16,370 And of course, Schmidt is one of the most important thinkers in this tradition that there has to be a certain worldview, 63 00:08:16,370 --> 00:08:28,760 a certain broader kind of a transcendental point of view that that transcends the everyday politics that holds the community together. 64 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:37,790 That is that is that that becomes a sacred bond in within which politics and decisions take place. 65 00:08:37,790 --> 00:08:46,010 You know, my supervisor was just reading her book The Violence and There as well. 66 00:08:46,010 --> 00:08:52,160 She talks about how political theology played a very important role. 67 00:08:52,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Theology, both in terms of the use of religion, but also the idea of of the sacred, played a very important role in the anti-colonial movement, 68 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:08,570 particularly challenging the sovereignty of that group, challenging the sovereignty of the colonial state. 69 00:09:08,570 --> 00:09:12,860 Now in Pakistan, we do on paper have a theology. 70 00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:20,190 We have a lot of it more than most modern countries, which is why Pakistan is often a theocratic state. 71 00:09:20,190 --> 00:09:26,870 You know, since 1949, we've had what's called the objectives resolution, which said we suggest that, 72 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:34,990 you know, Pakistan, the objective the purpose of Pakistan is to have is, 73 00:09:34,990 --> 00:09:47,990 is to is to is to enact the sovereignty of Islam and to ensure that all rules and regulations in the country are in accordance with his will. 74 00:09:47,990 --> 00:10:00,060 And this is something that's reflected in the Constitution of 1956 of 62 of 73 more so its empty tree with the preamble repeats the objectives. 75 00:10:00,060 --> 00:10:09,140 The resolution and calls allow the sovereignty of Pakistan to sovereignty belongs to Allah. 76 00:10:09,140 --> 00:10:16,130 What I find extremely interesting is that despite this kind of transcendental sense of purpose, 77 00:10:16,130 --> 00:10:23,180 Pakistan has has had a lot of trouble defining itself in relation to the world. 78 00:10:23,180 --> 00:10:29,240 You know, in the in the early 1950s, when, after the signing of the siege of centre backs, 79 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:35,840 Pakistan became the America's most allied ally in the 80s, of course. 80 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:45,860 Famously, Pakistan was hosting America's jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and by early 2000s, 81 00:10:45,860 --> 00:10:53,870 Pakistan was leading the anti jihad in the region against the Taliban, again backed by American dollars. 82 00:10:53,870 --> 00:10:59,150 And recently, it's led to some comical situations where, you know, 83 00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:06,200 the foreign minister was recently asked his opinion ensemble London brother, he's a shaheed or not, whether he's a martyr. 84 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,930 And he refused to answer that. 85 00:11:08,930 --> 00:11:21,140 Similarly, the Taliban Pakistan, which is a declared terrorist organisation and was responsible for the murder of school going children in 2014. 86 00:11:21,140 --> 00:11:28,190 The Pakistani state is back in negotiations with that to mainstream, and they've even been called brothers. 87 00:11:28,190 --> 00:11:33,680 Imran Khan recently celebrated the victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan by 88 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:38,210 saying that the Taliban have broken the shackles of slavery in Afghanistan, 89 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:42,560 and he's ahead of the state that is still an ally in the war on terror. 90 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:53,720 That is that facilitated NATO's war in Afghanistan. So we aren't even sure today whether we've lost or we want because technically, 91 00:11:53,720 --> 00:12:01,340 legally we are part of the losing side, which is why many people call Pakistan a red deer state. 92 00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:19,250 It rents out its geostrategic position in order to do to cut deals with superpowers and to continue reproducing the elite consensus that exists. 93 00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:23,200 And right now, of course, Pakistan is very close to the Communist Party of China, 94 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,380 so Pakistan is probably one of the few countries that's close to Communist China, 95 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:31,490 America plus America, Saudi Arabia Taliban, 96 00:12:31,490 --> 00:12:42,530 which again shows the kind of almost like a profane nature of of calculation when one of our ruling elites. 97 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:50,840 But the point I want to make is that all of it becomes more and more clear when the military intervenes. 98 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:59,510 To suspend the Constitution. Now recall, I said the Constitution actually belongs not to the people are not sovereign. 99 00:12:59,510 --> 00:13:06,260 The sovereign sovereignty belongs to us, and it almost becomes comical. 100 00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:21,800 When the state intervenes, the military intervenes, suspends the constitution and says till the situation is restored to normalcy, we will not be. 101 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,740 We will not lift the suspension, which almost feels like, you know, 102 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:34,820 it's it's like saying right now the situation is so bad it's out of from the hands of out of the hands of Allah. 103 00:13:34,820 --> 00:13:38,390 We are the agents of order. We will go in. 104 00:13:38,390 --> 00:13:45,260 We will restore order and then hand over sovereignty back to us as if I was unable to do that. 105 00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:56,670 And this this, I think already. Kind of hints at the fact that rather than having the other being a theocratic state, 106 00:13:56,670 --> 00:14:07,620 this act in particular of suspending the Constitution, exemplifies that Pakistan lacks a coherent political theology. 107 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:15,720 It's not anchored in it in political theology. Otherwise, these contradictions would not have been this obvious. 108 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:27,630 Instead, there's brute power is brute calculation and brute force of force used against citizens, which makes it, you know, I in the book, 109 00:14:27,630 --> 00:14:39,690 I use the term, the profane state, you know, state that that does not abide by its own theological premises actually undermines it. 110 00:14:39,690 --> 00:14:45,930 Again and again, which then leads me to my second point. 111 00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:53,970 This undermining does not just happen at the level of of of suspending the Constitution. 112 00:14:53,970 --> 00:15:03,000 It also from this stems naturally stems that the rights of the people are also suspended. 113 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:10,170 And we can see that even in the normal democratic times, you know, trade unions aren't allowed to. 114 00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:17,720 Trade unions aren't allowed women who come out to protest and are targeted by the state minorities. 115 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:24,930 So these are stories about Pakistan that many or that many have already hurt. 116 00:15:24,930 --> 00:15:37,620 But I think one thing that again is emblematic of of of the intensity of of the violence is the case of missing persons in Pakistan, 117 00:15:37,620 --> 00:15:45,210 which have highlighted in the book because I think it's one of those things that many people shy away from. 118 00:15:45,210 --> 00:15:49,020 It is one of Pakistan's most scary open secrets. 119 00:15:49,020 --> 00:15:56,160 Of course, it's one can argue it's a technique of governance that's increasingly being used across the world. 120 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,750 The Indian help Kashmiris. 121 00:15:57,750 --> 00:16:07,730 The cases are rising in Turkey, of course, to the history of of enforced disappearances in Argentina and other parts of the world. 122 00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:15,020 And here I bring in Professor Baku's. 123 00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:23,480 Fantastic work on enforced disappearances and the question of sovereignty. 124 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:32,750 She shows very clearly that she does a very interesting reading of Hobbs and fuko focussed reading of clubs and shows 125 00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:42,200 that what football misses is is the fact that is is the central importance of the category of the enemy in hearts. 126 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:53,450 And through that, she builds that argument, saying that eventually modern sovereignty is not just about eliminating guns, 127 00:16:53,450 --> 00:17:00,290 it's actually about erasing an invisible rising concept which has with this difference, 128 00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:08,420 has serious consequences because what's happening with the missing persons is that. 129 00:17:08,420 --> 00:17:17,090 It is a form of of terrifying violence. We've seen people, people close to us who've gone missing. 130 00:17:17,090 --> 00:17:24,120 One of my students I remember, was abducted from his home and. 131 00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:38,100 The effect that it has is not only on the family, but everybody around the persons abducted is is naturally horrified by this blatant use of power. 132 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:44,580 Yet you cannot nominate who's done it because there are no records. 133 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:50,160 The state doesn't acknowledge it. The media doesn't acknowledge it. 134 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,410 The courts don't acknowledge it. So there is this this kind of absence. 135 00:17:55,410 --> 00:18:06,540 But this absence is is is is the technique used by the state to show its presence in a very terrifying way. 136 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:11,780 It's this kind of, you know, ink that erases itself. 137 00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:24,020 And I think that's that's one one way of looking at this form of sovereign violence as this think that erases itself and erases the bodies as well. 138 00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:31,010 So this erasure of both the ink and the surface is central to modern forms of violence. 139 00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:39,440 And of course, one can one one knows that one. Can you know that how even at this violence is not something that just happens now, 140 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:46,370 it's a reminder of an ordinary forms of violence and how the state was built. 141 00:18:46,370 --> 00:18:54,530 And they said this about the form of violence in which the state communicates with people without in the language of violence, 142 00:18:54,530 --> 00:18:59,720 without showing itself directly. So this. 143 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:09,920 So that's the one aspect of of missing persons. A second, I think, very important thing where where they were, where the case of missing persons, 144 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:17,550 I think can again complicate our understanding of of modern forms of power is that. 145 00:19:17,550 --> 00:19:23,130 When when these enforced disappearances happen, clearly it did. 146 00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:30,550 It's not it's not similar to the targeting of entire communities or of every. 147 00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:42,610 The modern power also works in differentiating people, certain people, leaders, agitators from the crowds. 148 00:19:42,610 --> 00:19:51,980 So you know this, of course, this has been happening since the French Revolution, you know, interpolating certain individuals as the great leaders, 149 00:19:51,980 --> 00:20:09,280 the cite some of the work that I did in my dissertation, where in in the 1920s 1930s the colonial state was obsessed with, not with with the crowds. 150 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:15,220 I mean, we talk a lot about the crowds of the 1910s, 20s, 30s by the 1930s. 151 00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:23,830 The colonial state is not scared of the crowds, as it is of certain individuals within those crowds the extremists, 152 00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:29,440 the communists, the, you know, the professional agitator. 153 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:39,520 And in fact, the term political starts becoming used more and more by by British bureaucrats of 154 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:48,910 colonial officials in the 1930s for these individuals who they feel are shaped by ideas. 155 00:20:48,910 --> 00:20:58,060 So, you know, so, so so there are a lot of examples that I give where we officials are like, Oh, this event was not political. 156 00:20:58,060 --> 00:21:02,020 This this labour strike of fifty thousand people was not political. 157 00:21:02,020 --> 00:21:08,770 There was they were, they were. They were just demanding better wages. But this protest of 500 people was apolitical. 158 00:21:08,770 --> 00:21:16,630 There were ten people were what non communist agitators or nationalists or extremists. 159 00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:23,880 So this this this understanding of who is political comes from it. 160 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:33,790 It started it started getting defined in terms of once organisation affiliation, all once it to some. 161 00:21:33,790 --> 00:21:41,350 And this case of missing persons that we see is again a very targeted attack on certain 162 00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:48,460 individuals that the state differentiates from the rest of the community as the ringleaders, 163 00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:53,770 as the foreign agents, as the enemies within the question. 164 00:21:53,770 --> 00:22:00,160 Of course, a foreign agent is something that is extremely important today in Pakistan. 165 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:11,380 Also in India, you know, the I, you know, often say that the number of people in Pakistan who have been accused of being religious, 166 00:22:11,380 --> 00:22:16,990 you know, much about the father of the nation was accused of being deported. Then you had the family. 167 00:22:16,990 --> 00:22:20,800 You would have not been as he never should be absent. 168 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:29,320 It would almost seem like Draw is the most popular political party Pakistan, and you could do the same in India with the ISI. 169 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:36,610 Everyone is a decent person who believes in human rights and believes in the rule of law is declared an Ice Age. 170 00:22:36,610 --> 00:22:44,770 So there's, you know, it's it's this equation of dissent with with with the enemy. 171 00:22:44,770 --> 00:22:51,880 I think is is is is one win over and the other then is to target specific individuals. 172 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:59,950 And this differentiation, I think, is very important. Every time we see the state cooperate, it differentiates between, as I said, 173 00:22:59,950 --> 00:23:09,100 between people who are just protesting for a cause and people who are guided by by worldviews. 174 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:22,510 So this this differentiation, I think, is something that that becomes more clear in how sovereign violence takes shape in contemporary Pakistan. 175 00:23:22,510 --> 00:23:32,240 OK, my third and last point is is about. 176 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:39,390 Is is on is on the question of the form and content now here. 177 00:23:39,390 --> 00:23:43,330 You know, one can. One has. 178 00:23:43,330 --> 00:23:49,870 One has of course, heard about how Pakistan has a has a system of controlled democracy. 179 00:23:49,870 --> 00:23:54,400 That's in any case what I've ordered in in my book. 180 00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:05,170 And here, I think there's a very interesting dynamic between between the the form and content of the court system in Pakistan for historical reasons, 181 00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:17,440 primarily the anti-colonial movement and and the regular elections that that's been taking taking place in the 20th century. 182 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:26,470 Democracy at some level has a hegemonic presence for for for both the rulers and the. 183 00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:31,330 So very few people openly say, Well, we hate democracy, at least those in power. 184 00:24:31,330 --> 00:24:36,130 The interesting bit is, even military dictators never say that they hate democracy. 185 00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:44,260 They say, we are here to have to improve democracy, to protect democracy, never to to dismiss democracy as such. 186 00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:52,820 So. This has been a tension at the heart of the Pakistani state project since the 1950s. 187 00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:58,280 Do they want to? They want republicanism, they want democracy. 188 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,590 But at the same time, there's this extreme fear of the people, 189 00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:14,510 so so the hope is to be able to control the decisions of the people who have us to have to have to set up a contest, 190 00:25:14,510 --> 00:25:21,290 a background context in which the will of the people can either be manipulated or 191 00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:27,350 suppressed while showing the while keeping the facade of electoral democracy going. 192 00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:34,580 And I think this is this idea of a hybrid democracy, of a controlled democracy, 193 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:40,820 of a manufactured democracy is something that is happening across the world now with, 194 00:25:40,820 --> 00:25:50,840 you know, one can argue, even in places like Russia or Turkey or any other that maybe, you know, it's different everywhere. 195 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:58,520 But Pakistan in this regard has to be given credit because if we were the pioneers in the 196 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,250 fifties and it's been 60 65 years and this has been this process has been perfected. 197 00:26:04,250 --> 00:26:18,440 And how do we how does the state manage elections? I read a quote, so. 198 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,620 Says time has come, and I'm quoting. 199 00:26:21,620 --> 00:26:31,100 Time has come to end the political role of intelligence agencies, but they have ruined the country by manufacturing puppets agencies. 200 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:35,750 So these are secret agencies only promote those individuals it can control. 201 00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:41,450 They won't control politicians, control judges and control bureaucrats. 202 00:26:41,450 --> 00:26:46,250 They manipulate elections to install puppets. A country cannot function like this. 203 00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:58,990 This is Imran Khan. In 2007 was now the prime minister is widely accused of being a puppet himself of the larger audience to do this. 204 00:26:58,990 --> 00:27:10,310 So, so one can so, and I think he explains it way better than anybody else on how the system works. 205 00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:20,550 We have what is called accountability, the accountability process, the anti-corruption drives that happen every few years. 206 00:27:20,550 --> 00:27:25,410 I argue that the nature of capitalism in Pakistan is such that it's very difficult 207 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:32,130 to amass wealth without without breaking at least certain aspects of the law. 208 00:27:32,130 --> 00:27:41,410 So in that sense, there's almost like universal guilt amongst the ruling elites who also are politicians. 209 00:27:41,410 --> 00:27:46,140 Also happened to be like, is that that's the class from which politicians come from? 210 00:27:46,140 --> 00:27:57,300 So, so if the intelligence agencies want to cobble together a coalition available for all they need to do is begin an anti-corruption drive. 211 00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:02,190 And and that'll leave the leading politicians that if you do not support the party, 212 00:28:02,190 --> 00:28:09,930 we want you to support in these elections, we we will open up cases against you. 213 00:28:09,930 --> 00:28:15,630 And this is a remarkably effective method of disciplining Davids. 214 00:28:15,630 --> 00:28:19,830 The political ends. There's a term called the king. 215 00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:26,610 You know, the but the parties that supported by the establishment and they keep changing their names and their faces. 216 00:28:26,610 --> 00:28:39,460 But but they but they're at the core is their loyalty to what's called the military establishment and to their own financial interests. 217 00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:48,700 So this is one way the second way, of course, is to disqualify or at times kill opponents, which again, Pakistan has a sordid history of. 218 00:28:48,700 --> 00:29:00,220 And third is is the election date rigging. There have been hardly any elections in Pakistan where they haven't been by serious allegations of rigging, 219 00:29:00,220 --> 00:29:05,860 and the recent ones in 2018 were again very controversial because it was widely 220 00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:09,940 believed that Imran Khan Sport I just read from was supported by the military 221 00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:16,420 establishment and was brought in as a puppet who brought in all these elected 222 00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:25,990 electable politicians from different parties in order to form a winning coalition. 223 00:29:25,990 --> 00:29:32,920 Now the idea then, is to have have have a puppet who will be who has exclusive powers, 224 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:40,600 but who cannot question the basic architecture of power, which means the security issues, 225 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,040 the foreign policies, as well as a major business interest owned by the military, 226 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:51,340 will not be under the purview of the government and there will be silence on them. 227 00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:56,250 No. This this form. 228 00:29:56,250 --> 00:30:00,570 One can say, is useless. So one can dismiss form, 229 00:30:00,570 --> 00:30:10,830 but I think it's always a mistake to dismiss form because form is if form has has has yet again develop the content of its own. 230 00:30:10,830 --> 00:30:18,330 And this particular relationship between the content between content is authoritarian content and democratic form. 231 00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:27,000 I think it produces all kinds of tensions within Pakistani politics that are at times they ducked it for opposition politics. 232 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:34,380 So on paper, naturally, we have a lot of rights constitutionally. 233 00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:42,570 And in fact, from the missing persons to questions of student rights, workers rights, women's rights, 234 00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:52,290 minority rights are often raised through available platforms by invoking the laws that the state has given. 235 00:30:52,290 --> 00:30:57,160 But more interestingly, every time. 236 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:05,470 A prime minister has been brought into power as a puppet by the military establishment almost every time, 237 00:31:05,470 --> 00:31:11,790 no matter how powerful or insignificant, how popular or unpopular the prime minister is. 238 00:31:11,790 --> 00:31:21,620 He or she has gotten into a conflict with the military establishment by taking their role as prime ministers semi-serious. 239 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:29,600 And this this tension, I think, is very is very central to understanding the drama. 240 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:36,050 So, you know, even recently, it's interesting that the the the chief of army staff prince, the prime minister, 241 00:31:36,050 --> 00:31:42,730 but then the prime minister has the power to give the chief of army staff an extension or dismiss him and basically this particular prime. 242 00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:48,590 The government saw a major crisis between the prime minister and the chief of army staff. 243 00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:55,460 The prime minister was unwilling to give him an extension and now this talk of how he's about to be discarded by the military. 244 00:31:55,460 --> 00:32:05,000 Similarly, Evocities was again a puppet formed by the military in the 1980s and by by 1990. 245 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:11,390 He was challenging the military's hold on power and there had to be a military coup to overthrow it. 246 00:32:11,390 --> 00:32:15,680 And even this time, as we speak, he's in England, in exile. 247 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,420 Similarly, with Bhutto, it was, you know, you can generally pass right hand man. 248 00:32:20,420 --> 00:32:28,220 A military military favourite guy promoted by the military eventually turned on them and had to be killed. 249 00:32:28,220 --> 00:32:36,020 And in 1979, even Benazir Bhutto made deals with the military, and eventually she had to be removed. 250 00:32:36,020 --> 00:32:39,350 This is not just to the politicians. It's true for other institutions as well. 251 00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:45,680 On paper, the judiciary is free. And from time to time are judges who. 252 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,960 Refused to play the game, and that's what I call going off script. 253 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,940 This is a script if we imagined this to be a scripted form of democracy. 254 00:32:55,940 --> 00:33:02,480 There are always characters who go off script. The script can never be fully controlled in advance. 255 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,210 There are always elements of contingency that can be invoked and that can lead to reversals. 256 00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:22,010 And recently, we've had judges this number who are challenging some of the taboo financial institutions, the financial empire of the military. 257 00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:33,560 In 2007, we saw major lawyers movement in the country, which was precipitated by the dismissal of the Chief Justice of Pakistan, 258 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:42,600 Chaudhry, who again had challenged the domain of the military, particularly on the missing persons case, but on other cases as well. 259 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:53,270 So, yeah, so the system works in such a way that the the they must always remain a gap between the content and the form. 260 00:33:53,270 --> 00:34:00,860 So the relationship of those in power of three judges of prime ministers must be ironic to their position. 261 00:34:00,860 --> 00:34:06,350 Legally speaking, what if they don't have a sense of irony? Some people don't. 262 00:34:06,350 --> 00:34:14,990 Then the system goes into a state of crisis when a prime minister states himself seriously, when a judge takes himself seriously, 263 00:34:14,990 --> 00:34:26,300 when a politician takes so seriously, when that gap that that gap, that ironic gap is removed and then the exercise of power becomes more difficult. 264 00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:37,610 So to end this point, as I said, corruption and anti-corruption in Pakistan is not about corruption. 265 00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:46,340 It actually fuels corruption. If anything, because precisely because it's it gives an opening to to corrupt politicians, 266 00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:50,990 keep doing the corrupt business as long as they knew for the king. 267 00:34:50,990 --> 00:34:57,680 But it is. What can we call the technique of governance? Anti-Corruption is a technique of governance. 268 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:04,970 This democratic facade is a necessary condition to which as a legitimises itself. 269 00:35:04,970 --> 00:35:14,060 But precisely because of the nature of the forum that all these there's always this enormous contingent 270 00:35:14,060 --> 00:35:22,070 possibility of reversals of certain individuals going off script and taking themselves seriously. 271 00:35:22,070 --> 00:35:36,500 I just like to end by saying, I think what is interesting about the moment right now in Pakistan, despite the horrors that we hear of, 272 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:43,550 is that there are a lot of young people across the country who are pretty much tired 273 00:35:43,550 --> 00:35:50,180 with the kind of fear mongering that that has that's been going on for so long. 274 00:35:50,180 --> 00:35:53,990 You know, if you call someone. A raw agent now. 275 00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:58,130 You know, we all have all that most people just laugh about it. 276 00:35:58,130 --> 00:36:01,400 It's something that has become a joke. 277 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:13,610 I think that the corruption of language is such that that the state no longer has the adequate words to dominate the opposition. 278 00:36:13,610 --> 00:36:21,650 Nominate these new movements, like the pursuit of this movement, which is a movement of Pashtuns who have been ravaged by war on 14th March, 279 00:36:21,650 --> 00:36:26,810 which is a movement of women asserting themselves in the public sphere. 280 00:36:26,810 --> 00:36:39,020 Or, you know, Christian rights activist, Baluch activist, trade unionist people from different walks of life who are who are rejecting these labels. 281 00:36:39,020 --> 00:36:47,060 They no longer have the potency. These words no longer have the potency that they did discredit individuals. 282 00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:56,300 Which also raises the danger of direct forms of violence spread when words cannot discredit people. 283 00:36:56,300 --> 00:37:02,330 But I think something new was definitely taking place in Pakistan. 284 00:37:02,330 --> 00:37:07,670 We may not have the adequate words of concepts for it, 285 00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:17,180 but I think new forms of political belonging are appearing onto the stage slowly and despite the difficulties. 286 00:37:17,180 --> 00:37:21,840 I think there's a lot of reason to remain hopeful. I just stop there. 287 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,288 Thank you.