Welcome all to this second panel on the situation developing situation in Punjab, Christiane.
It really is a great pleasure to have our three distinguished speakers.
Let me introduce them briefly. We have Malik Kadyrov, who is secretary general of the Media Alliance of Tajikistan.
Salim John, you journalist and director of Radio Free Europe and Radio, which is Tajik service.
And Dr Erna Hoffmann, who is a research associate at the University of Oxford and a specialist on Tajikistan and Central Asia.
More generally,
and what we will do today is speak about media misinformation and internet cut offs topics related to media and communications in Tajikistan.
We are meeting at a very grave moment of world history because at the other end of ex-Soviet space, of course, we see the horrific war in Ukraine.
The eastern end of Soviet space represented by Tajikistan, but also other countries in Central Asia,
have seen moments of violence off and on, and Tajikistan more recently in a certain part of the country.
Obviously, what's happening? Ukraine casts a shadow of various kinds or what happens in Central Asia.
And so not least because of the political possibilities that are both opened up and closed by the global situation.
And I I imagine all our speakers are fully conscious of this, so we should proceed in the following manner.
Each of our speakers will give a few minutes of presentation on the subject, and then we will engage in some discussion about it,
which will be open to members of the audience who can either raise their hands.
They use the hand function or write in their questions or comments, either under their own names or anonymously, which is a possibility on soon.
So let us begin then with you, Mr Kadyrov. Thank you.
Thank you very much for inviting us to such a wonderful panel discussion.
And I want, first of all, to express my condolences to all those families who lost their beloved lives, both in Ukraine and Russia.
Yes, but you mentioned that Ukraine is one of the heart of the former Soviet Union,
and we as members of the former Soviet Union and its absence, what's happening so closer to our hearts?
And although I'd like to discuss, has some kind of connexion with what's going on in the virtual information space.
Tajikistan, like a couple a couple of days ago, I posted an Ukrainian flag on my car on Facebook and just a simple expression of my position.
But you know how so many criticism I got from my audience and Facebook as those
few people whom I know for a long time and people who are not just labour,
migrants or ordinary people, they are persons, they are educated people.
And it was very strange for me to say that I can't be.
I have them, but changed their mind that it is only my position and I have a right to express my position, my assaults.
And what does it mean? It means that the public opinion in Tajikistan is created not by local media, not by local people.
It's created by a kind of Russian propaganda.
Why? Because the the guys who were criticising me, they were telling me that where you were, you was one eight years ago,
the Ukrainian masses or killing children and elderly in Donbas, exactly the same words,
the same phrase that Mr Putin used when starting his invasion of the neighbouring country.
In 2019, a local NGO in Tajikistan, Media Consulting carried out a new media preferences survey in Tajikistan,
which showed that a majority of people get information against the news from the TV, TV stations, from the TV media.
And the same survey showed that about twenty six of the respondents watch Russian TV TV channels just in order to get news,
which means that so they are. Creating their opinion on what's going around.
Through well looking, they're watching the on their world and what's going on around them through the TV channel.
Russian TV channel Wessels went on the air asking them about the weather.
They verify the information. They guess 56 percent of the respondents said they never verified.
They never asked whether this information is true or false.
They just trust what is broadcast, what is written.
And also, another part of that survey showed that.
The population inside is a growing tendency of populations moving from the
traditional media to internets to internet and especially amongst the young people.
This is a very growing tendency who get their information from the internet and but they serve.
It also shows that there is a little content in Tajik,
attractive content in Tajik language in the Tajik swept into Tajik and aspect of the internet and the usually Tajiks watch.
What is produced in Russian language by Russian TV is by a Russian log us by Russian websites,
which means because the English language is not popular in Kazakhstan.
Yeah, of course we are trying to to explain them.
The young Tajiks of the English is a language of national language, and you will by learning English, you will have more access.
But the quality of education in Tajikistan is too poor to make them have another source of information rather than English needs.
We will discuss about the media and the internet connectivity as well.
Speaking about the media, it was said that.
Tajiks, Tajiks, young people watch Russian language content closely.
And this is because of the lack of attractive Tajik language content and also in traditional media and in online media.
But yes, I have. So you can still has eight, nine, nine states nationwide TV channels, but the content they produce is quite similar because.
Mostly, they copy paste what the main TV channel Tajikistan produces, especially in regard with the news,
and I was told by my friends that a majority of these TV channels have no there are reporters in the fields and the one reporter,
one correspondent into some rural area reports for all of these TV channels.
And because the report that his he produces is similar and broadcast stimulatory all the news channels in regard with the internet connectivity.
Oh no. Speaking about another problem the Tajik journalism project media faces today.
This is self-censorship. Why the Tajik language content is so poor that do not.
That does not attract Tajik audience because of the self self-censorship amongst the Tajik journalists.
It's not only for state owned media, but independent media.
Ezlo, of course, stunning.
John, who is a very good expert in the media, in the media for Islam, can prove that it's a big dilemma.
It's a big problem for Tajik journalists to have to find an expert who can comment on this or that topic, especially if the topic is sensitive.
And that's why the Tajik media Tajik professionals cannot produce cannot produce attractive and verified news.
That can create public opinion, we said that young people move from the traditional media to internet media to online media.
Yeah, it's a it's a very growing tendency.
But at the same time, the. The old line media faces.
Another problem. Internet chatting, cutting internet, blocking websites, blocking those bloggers who are critical to the government in 2016.
Of course, at the beginning of the millennium, Tajikistan was proud of having the best internet connexion in the former Soviet Union.
We were very close to become an internet hub between Central Asia and Afghanistan, but was coming to who was leading, the communications said.
It was by one person who refused to back the who, who, who, who later became connected with the president's family and friends,
obtained an unlimited power was his coming to the power, the internet sector, I.T. sector in Tajikistan declared.
And now we have the most expensive and the slowest internet in the world and.
Taking into account the 2016's decision to create a unified, unified communications switching centre or the situation was confirmed,
the commission now is very dangerous because you will have all the law enforcement agencies,
plus the communications service and some other related institutions authority.
To cut into internet when they think that it's against the state security and which makes
the Tajik population vulnerable to be to be cut off from the outside world at any time
and from some other found issue by the phone crisis that started in November last year is
a very good proof of how the state can violate citizens right to to have a good exit,
to have an access to information.
Just because somebody in the state, a state institution, thinks that having providing internet will suffer the government security state security.
Thank you. Thank you very much, Malik, for that sobering set of observations.
Let's move on to Salim John both, please.
Thank you. If you will take a look at the legislations of Tajikistan, so everything is perfect, the best possible legislation may be in the region.
For example, every person is guaranteed freedom of speech.
Publishing their right to use means so much information, and state censorship and prosecution for criticism is prohibited.
This is Article 30 of the Constitution of the Republic of Leduc is done, and we can see the article section of Tajikistan Media Law,
the press and other mass media in the Republic of Tajikistan shall enjoy freedom.
Each citizen of the Republic of Tajikistan have the right to freely express convictions
and hold opinions to impart them in any form through the press and other media,
the mass media. No censorship of the most information shall be allowed so.
This is usually when international organisations are evaluating the situation in digital Islam, they're always pointing out to those articles.
So if we can go further, the interference of state entities to the editorial issues of any media outlet is prohibited and things like this.
But the reality is, unfortunately, the reality is vice versa.
And I can say about the entity that I am leading and also the intelligence service of Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty.
So at least in the last three years, we are experiencing a lot of difficulties simply for not doing our job, you know,
so a lot of obstacles that artificial obstacles to create a situation that when journalists are not able to collect information,
the access to information to publisher to bring to the audiences and so on.
And for the time being, we have only six active journalists out of 16 that have been working with us in 2019.
Why? Because we are touching sensitive topics.
We are independent and even we are.
Destroying those silence zones, the zones, you know that in the tragic media several years ago,
I made this moment certain to find out if there are any topics that the the Tajik media is not.
Touching it all, so it's clear it's a presidential family.
The president himself or his family members, some specific ministers and politicians and so on.
And we are not complying to those artificial rules, and that's why the government is somehow punishing us with the accreditation.
For example, even so far since 2019,
five of our journalists five our major I can say best journalists are not permitted by the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs of Tajikistan to work and all the time we are applying again and again.
So and they the the the answer is, you know, those applications are under review and it's not.
Yes, it's not known.
And so this kind of situation and also since 2019, the government started issuing three months accreditation for our journalists three months ago.
This means abide by the law, abide by regulations.
Three months accreditation is envisioning the full those foreign journalists
who are visiting country for 10 days for four a week or two weeks for months.
So they are giving him three months accreditation. And if the foreign journalists who are always visiting Tajikistan want to stay longer,
so he should go again to prolong to extend the duration of the accreditation so they are using against us this three months accreditation.
Why? Because they are given a clear signal to the journalists that so we are giving you permission for three months and we are looking after you.
So if you are not doing well so that after three months, though,
you will join the group of those who have been waiting for accreditation for more than three years.
So this type of situation and also a lot of harassment, intimidation.
Officially, unofficially, for example, last year, the deputy head of the National Bank expelled our crew from the press conference.
And with the very rude language and with the very humiliating our journalists
and we send a note to the Minister of Foreign Affairs about that document,
this or or this type of things or any security agent can approach our journalists and say, You look, you are working for CIA, you are.
You are a spy. So we know where you lead.
We know what's cool. Your kid is good. We know your father, we know your brother and so on.
And in reality is that we have a lot of a lot of documents, a lot of material that been relatives of our journalists are under a huge pressure.
Whenever the journalist even based in Prague. Is publishing something.
Let's say something not left by by the people in the government or especially investigative reporting.
So the next day, security agents will come to his or her father or brother for the talk.
And so and those talks are always and the threats and with.
And in one case, at least I lost my one of the best investigative reporters because his father was fired from from the government,
although he was doing purely technical job and his brother was fired from a company that somehow related to the presidential family.
And so and by the end, he had a shield and an ultimatum that to leave out of here at an start which the left.
So now this that this kind of situation, we know a lot of moments when the people,
especially officials, are creating obstacles for our journalists to do their job.
Even sometimes our journalists were beaten up or detained by police for two or three or five hours.
Things like this. But overall. So what?
What is the good news that our journalists have every time after this type of situation, they became more courageous and brave?
Just do because they understand how how serious their work is so and about the overall media situation.
Unfortunately, I am. I am looking closely. I am watching closely.
Obviously, this situation in many years.
So if we compared even this year with the 2021 or 2022 when the pandemic's adopted and again,
although there was what was under fire because of reporting about the COVID 19,
even comparing this year with the trainee trainee we have, we have the aggravating situation of freedom of press,
you know, and this is a kind of trend this coming year by year down.
And so because.
Many experts believe that is the kind of preparation for the power transition in Tajikistan,
so recently we had the news from Turkmenistan and maybe even so something is going on about the power transition there.
And Tajikistan so far is the only country in the region that is awaiting this moment.
And about a badakhshan just two days ago, I made some kind of kind of.
Conclusion, how we what we have done during this time since November, when the crisis erupted in Badakhshan.
So I think maybe, maybe it's it's good to settle for a proud statement, but I should say that maybe, maybe the reports,
the analysis and material that my colleagues published somehow deter the government
from any kind of military action and kind of further violence in Badakhshan.
Why? Because it's not done straight for kind of special purpose.
We just cover what have been going on in Badakhshan from the very beginning.
And there was a lot of signals from from the official that not to do this.
And just to stop reporting about Badakhshan. So again,
we are not complying to this and we published a lot of reports even about the smaller things are
happening in this region of the country away because we we clearly remember what happened in 20 in 2012.
When when the military operation took place in this region and on the other side,
we are since then we created a very good network of citizen journalists on a network of sources who are sharing with us.
Any piece of information, what is going on?
And this was the only way to to to to prevail over top to overtake the situation when the internet was or was not available in Badakhshan.
And I remember in this place what happened in 2012.
We had a journalist in horo. And so there was no internet at all.
And we do not know what is going on there.
And our journalist made his reports.
And save the pictures, short videos on a flash car giving it to the driver who is driving to Dushanbe and the driver in Dushanbe will enter
the city car is calling our colleagues in Dushanbe bureau and someone will go and pick up the police car and bring.
And then all the five transported to Prague and broadcast the either in in two TV news programmes or radio or website.
So I mean, the message from what whatever I said there, if the officials are thinking that by doing such things,
cutting out people from the internet are blocking also these web pages.
Just a week ago, we started we we founded a new web page mirror web page that that the Tajik officials now are not able to block and on.
And we are giving we are promoting the the the URL of this web page and it's doing very well and hundreds of new readers, new subscribers are coming.
And if they think that by doing this, cutting internet, silencing journalists,
not allowing them to go to to speak to the people or not giving them accreditation or giving them three months accreditation with this some kind of
box law do what what we need you should do or things like this or even the closure of the Dushanbe Bureau of Radios or the will not stop us at all.
And this is the message that your government and.
I can't I haven't some small statistics for the evidence since then when the government started doing all this stuff against us.
The no the our audiences are growing and growing and growing, and now we have over 1.6 million subscribers on YouTube.
One point four million followers on on the Instagram and the web page are the new Mirror web page.
He's bringing thousands of new readers, new users to tell us.
So I think it's 21st century.
And as you're not pointed out, that everyone can using form can connect to any part of the world and to find any kind of information they learn.
So and I think maybe it's much better when when some officials are telling us why you are reporting Badakhshan,
some what they have done this or that and stop doing it, I am telling them,
Okay, stop doing bad things and we will not we will not have anything to report.
You know, this is simple. It's everything it is. Depends on you, not on us.
Because when you when you are doing something, when you are killing some young men during the detention.
So we will report it. Don't kill him.
So this is a simple or negotiate with your own people, not force them to accept.
What do you think if you think somebody is is a criminal or bring him to justice,
not pressed on the people that you should catch this guy and bring to us, you know?
And so a lot of stuff. But but I will stop here and thank you, professor, for inviting me to this panel.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Salim John, that really was fascinating and even gives us some grounds for hope.
You know what you were saying about the training of citizen journalists, the inability to completely control information flows?
So despite a very bad situation in general, clearly there is some opening for what you say.
Let's move on now to Iran, and then we will come back later to many of these issues that have been raised.
Yes, thank you for having me. And I will be brief because actually much of my my thoughts tie into what the previous
speaker said and I think I'm doing is an important thing in that in general,
the situation is not good at all. But if we look at the larger trends,
digital technology cannot be ignored any longer and it really I think it really plays a role in state society relations.
Mean,
it's it's not without any reason that the state really the only ultimate thing it can do regarding the internet is completely blocking the internet,
right? I mean, because people can often use a VPN.
And if we compare Tajikistan nowadays with Tajikistan 10 years ago, then in terms of connectivity at household or individual level has increased.
I mean, is has really increased in terms of connectivity to outside factors, right?
So within the country, but also internationally, so that that really changes.
And so there there are several paradoxes and ambiguities, I think, because I mean,
the state or the digital regime really understands the importance of internet nowadays, right for its socio economic development for migrants.
The state needs access to the internet itself as well.
Digitalisation is clearly on the agenda of international donors, for instance, for agriculture and so on.
But at the same time, if the government is obviously worried about the potential of interest to unrest and conflict, I mean,
if you look at groups on Facebook, you see really that people express grievances on Facebook rather than going out on the street.
I mean, they protests grew on on groups, on Facebook, for instance, and I mean other channels.
So you see that also IMO, for instance, is very popular into the Sun nowadays.
And even though I mean, this is again some kind of ambiguity that the state can also use the social media to control people, right?
So there are these different possibilities or the different what you say, threats or possibilities of of digital technology in general.
So yeah, there is. There's also the paradox in a way in that last year, I think it was some.
You called for improving access to internet and actually enhancing the quality of service providers,
while at the same time they're blocking internet in parts of the country too.
So yeah, I mean, you see these conflicting trends or conflicting actions by the government.
But all in all, I see this digital technology is changing things even though there are clear divides.
I mean, what I also observed that Dickerson is that there is a clear gender digital divide.
We could say right it if you look in the countryside, but obvious as well in in urban areas,
it's that women are less often have used to a smartphone or to internet or telephones in general.
And also the elderly are much less less well connected, so they less often have smartphones and so on.
And of course, because of the high, I mean, the fact that the internet is so expensive,
that really is a barrier for people to make use of of internet or social media.
So even though there is, there are less like publicly accredited journalists, I think overall the landscape has changed over the past decade.
Thank you. Thanks very much. And I, of course, I think you're you're perfectly right,
the paradoxical situation of both the government relying upon the internet and wanting to promote it, on the one hand, if only to control people.
And it's fear of the same medium on the other is really, you know,
gives us a lot to think about and it connects up to what Salim John especially was saying.
So let me just pose a couple of questions and then we can continue the discussion and ask you if any of you have questions of the other as well.
So, Malik, you know what struck me when you were speaking? I was not.
I was astounded or not necessarily surprised by what you were saying about the Tajik government's lack of.
If you will, media dominance, it can stop media, but it doesn't have its own narrative so much,
given the fact that it's Russian media that's in your account seems to play the largest role
in where information is coming from and what people are watching and what people are reading.
It did strike me when he was speaking whether, for instance, Iranian or Afghan media outlets since, you know, both would be in in in Persian.
That is less Tajik and therefore mutually comprehensible play any role at all.
So on the one hand, that's one question I want to ask you about other forms of regional media from outside the country on both sides of this,
you know, on off of the country, Iran and Afghanistan.
And secondly, you know, the fact that the budget,
government or media presence seems not to have so much its own narrative, but has relies upon, say, Russian narratives.
What does that tell us about the way in which they can in fact control media narratives, given what they're not just said?
Yeah, thank you. Very good question. Regarding the regarding the question about the foreign media affecting the public opinion,
there was a very curious situation some 10 12 years ago when a personal pleasure guest I visited a border area with Uzbekistan
and visited a school and just asked a question to ask a cultural school boy a question quiz your president and the boy,
said Mr Karimov Islam Karimov.
So who's the president of the children?
Were thinking that Uzbek President Islam Karimov is their president.
Just because they were watching was the TV TV's.
Speaking about the Iranian Afghan TV channels and their influence on Tajik opinion, public opinion.
Yeah, the survey that I was speaking about, they also showed that there is a big audience who watch the Iranian TV channels the Gem TV,
but this audience usually watched the entertainment, not the news,
when something Southern was speaking about, about the pressure on media and journalists.
I was thinking that, yes, president, these tapes of Tajik state authorities, they think they live in Beijing go new ways, new tools of President Day.
We go on the independent journalism, but this is a medal with two sides from one hand.
When you accuse the independent Joe, of this, you get little criticism on your activity,
but from another hand, when you need the independent journalists, you will have nothing.
It's a very good example is the conflict between Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan,
when the cell wall was accepting it was having information about this conflict,
about this conflict through the country's media because they were very active.
There have a lot of a lot of media outlets that produce content in Russian and English.
So for international audience in Tajikistan or had only one or two or three media outlets that
had an international audience or that had to produce content for not only for internal audience,
but for international audience. Also the Asia Plus and so news.
Which means that we lost the so-called information war total, and it was not the fault of journalists.
It was the fault of the state authorities, first of all.
They just independent journalists do not have that say they did not provide information.
So that journalists report on set for not only for local audience,
not all of the footage, it's just the if when you are fighting in the information space,
your audience should be international and in order to have an image of the aggressor or defender and the well
have what lost total loses this battle and another or another side of the metal is that by cutting internet,
by slowing its speeds, the state is cutting its economy from it.
Because the current situation is that the world is moving to the digital economy and there are a lot of money,
a lot of funds in digital and digital economy.
But we are losing those income well, losing because we are not moving forward while saying we are fighting for survival.
So to survive, not have to develop.
That's why we usually try to explain the government that, hey, guys, your time of keeping everything in there under your total control has gone.
Now the situation has changed and you have to lead the new conditions and in order to succeed, in order to to to move forward, but not to block it.
Thanks very much. I mean it, it all again goes to show what you was saying earlier the kind of bizarre absence of a government narrative.
They must have a narrative, it must be their newspapers and all the rest, but unable to actually promote it,
as you suggest against their own regional rivals or even in order to convince perhaps their own people,
given the fact that their own people are watching Russian television or, you know,
the children might think that the president of their country actually is the president of another country.
It's really a fascinating situation is a state of a government that on the one hand one, the one hand seems to have full control.
And yet, on the other hand, it doesn't have its own story to tell in a credible or powerful manner.
I'd like to tie into that, of course, and go ahead.
I found it also. I mean, it ties into this.
This is a bit of a remarkable that was revealed last week that the current mayor of InSAR has a bank account in Switzerland, right?
And he responded in Tajik media explains why he was not responding to the international reports in English.
Or, I mean, had it translated into English to to comment on those on the organisation which revealed it.
When he commented, he gave an interview in Tajik media, explaining that due to his role necessary treatment in Europe,
he and someone else had opened a bank account on his name. So there's this wall.
There is no dialogue, but that's the way in which he then addressed basically the domestic audience to explain.
Well, I mean, I found it a remarkable story,
but that's why he how would you try to convince the domestic audience basically for the reasons of this bank account?
Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. You're right, actually.
Usually because it's a usual practise.
Tajik authorities apply to internal entomologists just because they're stupid answers or stupid explanations like what you are,
what you have mentioned. It's accepted by local audience, even if they do not do not to trust what he what they saw to say.
But at least they do not provide some kind of counter action.
But if they if the explanation of say is the message went to the external audience,
then external audience has will analyse what was saying and to and will respond accordingly.
If see if the message was stupid, the response will be also stupid.
That's why the local authorities should go. Authorities try not to not to apply to the international audience just because of their lack of knowledge,
lack of skills and what we know the signage on those.
And probably you also know that Tajik bureaucrats,
they the Tajik governing bodies create just based on the it is a relative or oh, they are belonging to some area.
Like if you're oh from the from the East, then you are able to get some position.
If you are from the north or vice versa, you'll get so.
Relatives, there's nepotism is and when you get your position through nepotism or by through bribery, of course, it doesn't mean that you are clever.
It doesn't mean that you are oh, you are educated.
You just got your position, and you will try to stay on your position on your trip as long as it's possible.
And the a very good example is that the answer for one of the head of the communication is the communications service, Mr Beggs, who was interviewed.
And asked about the cutting internet in the in used in twenty twelve or twenty or eight, he said that's a bullet cut the internet line.
Oh, and a stupid answer because everybody knows that internet line.
No Internet connexion is not like there's like an electricity line, but it it was.
It was responded to the public. It was published and everybody loves still still loves to his stupid, stupid answers.
But it works because no response to the the government does not take takes action against him.
Of course, sometimes sometimes such stupid, stupid statements he made to.
Hope and effect on the Ozone. On the one who responded, like, for example, the last year, a deputy minister of health went during an interview.
He just made the jokes or he was just did not know the difference between the North and South Korea.
And he lost his. He lost his job because of this stupid answer.
But some officials are more connected to the for the presidential family.
They they can't they can't respond any kind of stupid answers, but they still keep their positions while others lose their positions.
Thank you very much, Salim John. Yes, I should add one thing because I just went in, I was mentioning this situation, this anecdote that so.
I should confess that the president Rahmon.
Somehow, lax journalists and somehow lax freedom of speech.
Why? Because I assume that this former minister made this stupid statement because because the president or somebody on behalf of the president said,
Did you respond to this media publication?
Now he can say yes, I responded. I explained everything.
So this type of things are characteristic of for Mr. Rahman.
He is always, not always. I've witnessed many times when he said that, so we need to respond whatever the mass media are telling about us.
And it goes about the professor David Yu's oppression, about the government narratives.
So and and if you remember that those press conferences.
War order led by Rahman. He ordered every ministry, every government entity.
At the beginning, it was, I think, twice twice a year if Abdul Malik can confirm that or three times more.
So it was a kind of. He signed a decree that every entity should give a press conference every three months or six months, something like this.
And it wasn't. It wasn't every quarter quarterly. Every quarter, yes.
Yes, this quarter. But now it's half a year. Yeah.
But now officials may have a year.
And moreover, this year they invented, as you said, they invented a very interesting way to put 13 press conferences and in one day.
So when we have a small group of journalists and we,
we were not able to and some some of the people on social media said that to date, had you journalists became a kind of Spider-Men.
They should. They should go out of any ministry. So going back to Ramone's know that it comes actually, it comes from the Soviet time.
You know, during the Soviet time,
it was kind of unwritten law by the Communist Party that if anything will be published on a mass media about the government or party officials,
they should immediately respond to to to this publication.
So and about government narratives, I should say that unfortunately, the biggest problem, even not if they have this narration or not.
But the biggest problem is that we are facing a kind of big, big, big crisis of cadres.
So before before joining the Tijuca service, I was leading the special project Central Asian Newswire,
and I was hiring young journalists in four countries in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, in Kyrgyzstan.
And it gave me a kind of moment of comparison to see what kind of what the quality of of journalists, young journalists in each country.
So I gave Kazakhstan the highest mark.
And then Kyrgyzstan, I'm sorry. And then Kazakhstan. Then I was in kind of thinking, Who is stronger?
Tajikistan, all those you start. And then I started working with many, many different journalists in both countries.
So I decided Uzbekistan is no either no at all or number three.
But Tajikistan is the last one because and the quality of countries is going down and down every every year.
I don't know have a lot of universities every year about, I think 1200 journalists are graduating from colleges, from universities.
But even though when the government is shrinking the number of radio also the journalists in Dushanbe and we are trying to find new talent.
It's very difficult. It's hard to find someone that do not need extra training, just to come in to start writing in normal Tajik, you know.
And I am offering the your government there look weak.
Every year we can, we can invite maybe up to 20 young journalists for the intern for the internship,
and they can work and they can learn, and some of them maybe later join us.
So the Minister of Foreign Affairs prohibits the radio already of inviting any student for the internship, you know.
So this kind of situation, maybe the narration is there is that there is some narration, but no one is able clearly to articulate this narration.
And the government is not paying attention that I think 10 years or 20 years from now, there will be no journalists or normal journalists at all.
You know, professionals at all. Thank you.
You know, I agree with what John said.
Just because of the kinds of universities who have a lot of other universities who produce all the so-called journalists.
But as John said, everyone who graduated from the university and comes to the newsroom needs to start from zero because the programme,
the education programme that is educated in the universities, they own,
the all stars they are the styles of the 80s or 90s of stage four of the previous century.
And really, universities luck, qualified qualified professors, qualified teachers because I was when I was leading the interviews in Tajikistan,
was trying to cooperate with the statute of the state universities in order to provide them assistance
in having new role in having cadres and having teachers who are able to teach students on new media,
on new technologies. And it was very it was very difficult for us to reach these all these universities because just because we are Western
sponsored or Western Organisation who wants to support and the meaning of waste is who is accepted as an enemy for you.
And that's why this is the this is the problem that makes a between the.
International organisations want to support and the local institutions will need this support, unfortunately.
Thanks.
I want to move to what Ernie had said about protests moving online, and of course, once that happens, that online space cannot be confined to son.
And I'm sure it includes, you know, the very great number of young Tajiks, especially who are live in Russia and in other parts of the world.
And you know, I wonder what kind of influence or effect they have because they're exposed to a much wider,
I imagine, much wider set of sources of information in the detainment than people in Tajikistan themselves.
So what role do you think this diaspora plays?
That's one question, and I'll begin with another second question has to do with again, this issue of narrative.
You know, Salim John, in his initial presentation, spoke about how the laws are perfect.
So all the real control happens informally doesn't happen by law.
It happens as it were underneath the law.
Also very, very interesting that kind of informality of control, which means that there are no regulations or they are only informal regulations.
But when you do look at. Elements of a state narrative turning now to you as to how the role is in the bombers, for instance,
you see the deployment of despite being anti-Western, a very Western style narrative of counterterrorism.
Of course, the Russians also use this. It's not believable, but there you have it.
So, you know, even the state narrative seems to be picked up globally from here and there and used or misused.
So, you know, shall we begin with Iran and then move on to Salim John and to Malick addressing these these kinds of issues?
Yes. Thank you for this interesting question. Well, I think that language plays an important role here as well.
I mean, in terms of what people can access, right? And indeed there, I mean there.
I mean, I don't know the current figures, but the 800000 a million Tajiks in Russia.
But there are, of course, many also young people studying in Europe or in the US.
And they I mean, there's huge differences as well.
I mean, in terms of what these people, I mean, these different segments of society.
Right. But what kind of news they are exposed to when the voices they hear and see?
So I find it very difficult to generalise in this regard because if you are working as a labour migrant in Russia,
you obviously have you are exposed to a different narrative or voice, right?
And when you are in Europe or the US. So there is a big difference here. But what I saw?
I mean, see, recently I was also talking with people from the prime years currently in the US, of course.
I mean. What did I want to say here?
I mean, they I mean, there's much more connectivity in this regard, and those people, I think,
are more active then than perhaps part of the labour markets where they have an other kind of activity, right?
And they also have a different network. So I mean, that's related to the kind of voices they hear.
They yeah, they are their network is different in in this regard.
But I think that was actually what I my my my previous comment or what I wanted to say is that in this regard,
there is a difference in if you compare it to the extent nowadays and in terms of societal activity right with the Dickerson on ten years ago.
Definitely. Yeah. But language, I think what I mentioned, first of all, is is making a big difference in the kind.
I mean, if you look at, well, basically Russian state controlled controlled media, right?
And and the news, I mean, there's always a select few.
What would you get also in Europe or the US?
We shouldn't forget that, but there's I mean that language well, can be regarded as a barrier in this regard.
Yeah. And I mean, just to touch on the your second question, I think addressed Malik.
I think more in general, we could say that in the DSM, they're state law.
But the informal requirements sometimes supersede stable, right,
so you have to comply with particular informal requirements rather than with state law.
Yeah. Thanks very much. Salim John, any comment?
Yeah. First of all, I completely agree with the last comment the home made by Iran.
And going back to the diasporas and to a global look.
So I'm very happy that having this kind of situation in Tajikistan, we have a completely different situation out of Tajikistan,
where something happens in New York, for example, or in Washington, D.C., or even today, today in Ukraine.
Unfortunately, people are dying and fighting is going on.
We have at least three good citizen journalists.
Tajiks, one of them, student, two of them are migrants,
and they are a bunch of them are doing is a video diary, day to day what is going on outside of his windows.
The second one is visiting some places like Underground Subway, the railway station and other places.
And even yesterday, his car was was was shot by, by, by, by Russian forces.
He showed us four places of the bullets and things got himself OK.
And they are doing journalistic work for us, you know,
and we are very happy to work with those young people and we have others in other parts of of Russia.
And the next until the next week, we are planning to make a huge video package about how the situation is influencing Tajik.
They asked for a Tajik migrants across Russia about the banking, about the because they are losing jobs and because of the ruble is is is plunging.
So and so so I mean, I mean when when young people are going out of Tajikistan, they become more open minded.
They become they learn different language languages and they look at the situation
and their mother land completely differently than those who are staying there.
And this is also a kind of ray of hope that maybe future will be much better than than what we have today.
Thank you. It really is inspiring when you hear these stories and, you know, long may they continue.
And and obviously in an improved context, I see we have a couple of questions, but before I go to them, Malik, if you have any comments.
I just. Just a small comment.
I was speaking about the Tajiks abroad and the narratives they have.
It depends on which countries they are, like those who are in the Western countries.
They of course have and the narratives that, well, those who are in Russia, they they will be able to give.
And that was narrative because I remember that some time in twenty fourteen between 2014 and 2016.
A lot of Tajiks who resided in Russia as labour migrants were involved in the extremist groups just because of the narratives they had in Russia.
Because if in Tajikistan,
the state was controlling the controlling the internet and the businessmen trying to cut the extremist messages in Russia, they were free.
They were able to get any kind of information from internet.
And that affected the fact that a lot of young Tajiks were involved in Syria and Iraq.
They were they were involved from Russian, from Russia, not from Tajikistan.
That's a hugely important issue, and it raises a whole set of different questions, obviously, about globalised forms of militancy.
So very, very interesting. But let's get to the the questions that have been asked of the first.
Well, I'll take them in turn by Paddy Coulter, who says a fascinating of disturbing discussion.
But cannot international pressure play a role in challenging the harassment of journalists and the internet and the internet blocking?
Who would like to address that? Can I briefly say something because I was yes.
Well, of course I was following. I mean, regarding the situation in Badakhshan, I was a bit struck because I thought, OK.
The state is actually blocking the internet while international donors, international organisations like Development Corporation,
Right, have been active in Badakhshan and throughout Tajikistan for a long time.
And by blocking the internet, the states actually and doing a part of what these international donors have been doing.
But what I noticed is that I think it was Human Rights Watch they they send out a call with and it was signed by several organisations.
But if I'm not mistaken, only few, if not none of them.
None of the organisation is currently works in. In this Badakhshan region actually signed the letter.
And I think one of the reason is that it's and remains sometimes like a very delicate issue as
an international organisation working in the country to push on on sensitive issues or politics.
Yeah. Yes. No. Thank you. And it certainly the akkadian is,
which is one of the major ones there is is enmeshed in so many of these relations and has so many
responsibilities to shoulder that it is practically disabled from making any statements at all.
But I'm sure this is true of some of the others as well. Let me move to Jody Hilton's question,
which is what are the main messages disinformation campaigns are promoting concerning the political and security situation in global action?
And who is behind those campaigns? Is it solely the state of the check is done or is Russia also involved?
So shall we? I'll have each of you take a stab at this.
So we begin with you, Salim John. Sure.
Yes. As as it was mentioned, even from the very beginning from from 2009 and later on, so the main,
the main that's a cover or the main narration of the government was fighting terrorism, drug trafficking, organised crime and so on.
And and this is something that even Western countries, as you mention that it's it's somewhat somehow western.
That's a slogan or thing.
So and it's understandable in the West and Western leaders, somehow they accept that maybe there is something because of this and that and then.
And yeah,
I think the the issue is the roots goes back to the Civil War because Badakhshan was one of the opposition strongholds during the 1992 97 Civil War.
And as we witnessed through from that time until now, there were several military operations in Durham region, in Tamil, in other places.
And it's a kind of I could say that it kind of.
The power is created that there is some other leaders who can lead the people.
And and so there was a kind of cleansing of fleet local leaders in other regions during that time, you know, especially those who can or can.
Maybe you can take care of people who care, who can and can't do something militarily and so on.
And but but national remained untouched until 2009.
Then something first happened. Then in 2012 there was a huge military operation there.
And this kind of disbelief are of the sea and the nature of Badakhshan.
Just imagine this is autonomous region for some form by the law that you constitution.
Second, people are speaking different languages and Tajik speaking primary languages.
Third, and they are different religious.
You know, they are followers of it's my Milo Shia branch of Islam and all this stuff.
So and maybe on at some point some statements by Badakhshan,
the young people either inside of Badakhshan or outside of Badakhshan that we are different.
We need, we need to separate ourselves from from the whole other things.
You know, when when the situation, the economic situation, the social situation and overall situation is better in every country.
So look at Afghanistan. There was a lot of statements about the federalism about the war, keeping some territory separate from others.
Anything like this now and maybe all those kind of things come together,
many different different factors, and they play the role for for the government to act like this.
However, there was no necessarily to use force against these young men, but Zoback or so if they did not succeed.
Detained him on November 21st. So it's OK, he will go.
So it's OK. Let's to find some way to catch him in some other places and in the market.
I don't know.
As we know that he every week he was driving to the Central Bureau for for the gym and the gym is just next door today to the police office, you know?
And if there was no other kind of writing station,
so if they were not able to catch him on November 21st or it was easily just to say, OK, let him go.
So let's do some some other ways, detain him another day.
So imagine simple, and there is no such a problem that we have now in Badakhshan today, you know?
But it's looking like the problems are deeper and maybe the involvement of others we don't know.
And yeah, and thanks God that so far the situation will be there a lot of pressure on the local population.
There are a lot of provocations, but so far the situation is is, let's say, not normal, but not going to the bloodshed.
And but so this needs some, and the message was not clear.
Even today we had a blog a young blogger wrote that OK, if this guy, she means Mohammad Booker.
Muhammad Botero is a criminal. So first just convince the people that he is a criminal.
And before calling someone a criminal, you should have a court.
You should have the charges, accusations and somebody who can bring evidence and some other defendants.
So the old procedure, trial, court procedure.
So and when there is nothing like this or of course, people will not trust the government and the government is not trusting the people.
So we have this kind of situation.
Thank you, Salim John Malik, do you want to take a stab at that question about global action and Tajikistan, as well as the Russian influence?
Couple couple of additions.
Tajikistan is considered as a country, Tajikistan as the regime is considered by international organisations as a dictatorship,
and it's clear that a dictator dictatorship doesn't accept any kind of situation when
some part of six of its countries for Islam is not a be totally totally central command.
And Malaysia is the only region in Portugal songs that have that which people have their own opinions and that they are able to express their opinion.
And they several times proved that they can fight for their rights, which is not acceptable by the by Dushanbe.
And of course, because of course,
the other question is how competent are the managers that the central the Central Command sends to the regions to manage the region?
One, six one In 2018, President Rahul appointed a local the local person because local.
Yield Gore face off as a manager, as a governor of the.
Oh, everything was OK. And during his governance for three years, no incident was safe.
But in two event, also last year, somebody in the presidential office thought that that's that's enough.
It's time to charge them. And they tend to persons from the military, from the law enforcement.
And this situation totally changed because different styles of management.
If the previous one was managing through dialogue with people, the new one,
who is the graduated from the KGB KGB institution used the same tools that now Mr. Putin uses.
So. Similar style with the Russian governance and the difference that was approved with the for Pfizer,
which makes the situation very complicated, and when we're speaking about the messages of disinformation of disinformation, it's one.
It's flying in different Star Wars. It's it's a struggle between the.
State management and the population regarding the incidents and like in every one of the sides, the parties use the tools they have.
So it's a battle, though the government has TV's real media and uses it as well as large as as Leslie as it can do it.
And cutting the internet is also one tool to battle the conflicts to combat.
So who are we? The question is whether it's the Tajik state only or Russians are also involved.
I don't think that Russians are involved in developing a strategy for developing some messages
here because you just stop because they have they usually consult more widely strategists.
But Russians are involved in helping the Tajik authorities.
In bringing the other Chinese leaders who are residing in Russia, as it is with us,
like in Georgia because I believe was brought by force, the other because of the leader who was brought by force and all this.
All these campaigns have one single goal just to.
To make silent the voices that the population song has just in order to to make the region totally controlled by the 7th of.
The previous question was regarding the pressure, the international pressure on the harassment of John is.
I would like just to add a couple of words for him because international pressure works when the government,
some countries are allied on something that's so dependent on the international community.
Previously, some maybe 10 years ago, Tajikistan was, yeah,
the international pressure was effective on the government of Tajikistan because they
had some kind of dependence of international financial support international projects.
But later, when they came and played with, they always see when dropped down their range from the bureau to the just office in Tajikistan.
It's understood, understood the government of the least understood that it has.
You've got an immunity against the international pressure and now they use this immunity.
They know that the international community can do nothing.
They cannot interject into the internal affairs of budgets.
And this is the the reason that the international pressure is ineffective right now.
Thank you. Thank you. Ending our discussion today, but I'd like to end with it or not,
the last word to you on these two questions, particularly the second one on one brother, Sean.
Well, the narrative I find is very fine, find it a very difficult question to answer.
And I think the previous two speakers already. Yeah, they they they have more insights into the local situation.
What I know, what I observe is that I mean, even though the I mean, the internet has been blocked at outside of Tajikistan.
There are many people actually will raise attention to the issue.
But Malik is exactly I mean, it's correct to to notice.
The difference is, I mean, if you look at international pressure that was very effective, I mean, in various realms of the economy, right?
Just well, I mean, I've been working on agriculture in particular on that ground reform.
And yeah, in that regard, the situation has changed with regard to pressure.
I think that's it's correct, A. Yeah. Well, thank you.
Thank you very much to you all for participating in this panel.
I think, you know, it's a very grave and concerning situation, obviously.
And yet with some signs of hope,
the citizen journalist the paradox of media control that you're not pointed out and the fact that Badakhshan is both the remaining last remaining,
if you will, autonomous site of resistance.
And yet hopefully, possibly also the first site at which new a new vision of journalism and politics and democracy might emerge, we can only hope.
But with that, with those words. Thank you all again for participating.
Thank you to our audience. And we will see you again on our next.
Hopefully not your planned event on Tajikistan, hosted by the Asian Studies Centre at St. Anthony's College, Oxford.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Organising such a wonderful discussion on this topic.
Thank you. Nice to meet you all by.