1 00:00:00,750 --> 00:00:08,760 Welcome all to this second panel on the situation developing situation in Punjab, Christiane. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:13,710 It really is a great pleasure to have our three distinguished speakers. 3 00:00:13,710 --> 00:00:23,370 Let me introduce them briefly. We have Malik Kadyrov, who is secretary general of the Media Alliance of Tajikistan. 4 00:00:23,370 --> 00:00:30,510 Salim John, you journalist and director of Radio Free Europe and Radio, which is Tajik service. 5 00:00:30,510 --> 00:00:39,420 And Dr Erna Hoffmann, who is a research associate at the University of Oxford and a specialist on Tajikistan and Central Asia. 6 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:41,520 More generally, 7 00:00:41,520 --> 00:01:00,420 and what we will do today is speak about media misinformation and internet cut offs topics related to media and communications in Tajikistan. 8 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:11,730 We are meeting at a very grave moment of world history because at the other end of ex-Soviet space, of course, we see the horrific war in Ukraine. 9 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:20,010 The eastern end of Soviet space represented by Tajikistan, but also other countries in Central Asia, 10 00:01:20,010 --> 00:01:30,180 have seen moments of violence off and on, and Tajikistan more recently in a certain part of the country. 11 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:36,600 Obviously, what's happening? Ukraine casts a shadow of various kinds or what happens in Central Asia. 12 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:45,420 And so not least because of the political possibilities that are both opened up and closed by the global situation. 13 00:01:45,420 --> 00:01:54,000 And I I imagine all our speakers are fully conscious of this, so we should proceed in the following manner. 14 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:06,570 Each of our speakers will give a few minutes of presentation on the subject, and then we will engage in some discussion about it, 15 00:02:06,570 --> 00:02:11,190 which will be open to members of the audience who can either raise their hands. 16 00:02:11,190 --> 00:02:21,930 They use the hand function or write in their questions or comments, either under their own names or anonymously, which is a possibility on soon. 17 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:28,400 So let us begin then with you, Mr Kadyrov. Thank you. 18 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:34,070 Thank you very much for inviting us to such a wonderful panel discussion. 19 00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:47,310 And I want, first of all, to express my condolences to all those families who lost their beloved lives, both in Ukraine and Russia. 20 00:02:47,310 --> 00:02:55,670 Yes, but you mentioned that Ukraine is one of the heart of the former Soviet Union, 21 00:02:55,670 --> 00:03:08,090 and we as members of the former Soviet Union and its absence, what's happening so closer to our hearts? 22 00:03:08,090 --> 00:03:23,630 And although I'd like to discuss, has some kind of connexion with what's going on in the virtual information space. 23 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:38,750 Tajikistan, like a couple a couple of days ago, I posted an Ukrainian flag on my car on Facebook and just a simple expression of my position. 24 00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:51,500 But you know how so many criticism I got from my audience and Facebook as those 25 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:59,210 few people whom I know for a long time and people who are not just labour, 26 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:04,460 migrants or ordinary people, they are persons, they are educated people. 27 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:12,790 And it was very strange for me to say that I can't be. 28 00:04:12,790 --> 00:04:26,860 I have them, but changed their mind that it is only my position and I have a right to express my position, my assaults. 29 00:04:26,860 --> 00:04:42,050 And what does it mean? It means that the public opinion in Tajikistan is created not by local media, not by local people. 30 00:04:42,050 --> 00:04:48,020 It's created by a kind of Russian propaganda. 31 00:04:48,020 --> 00:05:01,370 Why? Because the the guys who were criticising me, they were telling me that where you were, you was one eight years ago, 32 00:05:01,370 --> 00:05:12,500 the Ukrainian masses or killing children and elderly in Donbas, exactly the same words, 33 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:27,290 the same phrase that Mr Putin used when starting his invasion of the neighbouring country. 34 00:05:27,290 --> 00:05:41,630 In 2019, a local NGO in Tajikistan, Media Consulting carried out a new media preferences survey in Tajikistan, 35 00:05:41,630 --> 00:05:52,820 which showed that a majority of people get information against the news from the TV, TV stations, from the TV media. 36 00:05:52,820 --> 00:06:10,070 And the same survey showed that about twenty six of the respondents watch Russian TV TV channels just in order to get news, 37 00:06:10,070 --> 00:06:17,960 which means that so they are. Creating their opinion on what's going around. 38 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:27,440 Through well looking, they're watching the on their world and what's going on around them through the TV channel. 39 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:35,720 Russian TV channel Wessels went on the air asking them about the weather. 40 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:45,860 They verify the information. They guess 56 percent of the respondents said they never verified. 41 00:06:45,860 --> 00:06:52,100 They never asked whether this information is true or false. 42 00:06:52,100 --> 00:07:00,640 They just trust what is broadcast, what is written. 43 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:09,690 And also, another part of that survey showed that. 44 00:07:09,690 --> 00:07:17,940 The population inside is a growing tendency of populations moving from the 45 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:25,940 traditional media to internets to internet and especially amongst the young people. 46 00:07:25,940 --> 00:07:37,110 This is a very growing tendency who get their information from the internet and but they serve. 47 00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:46,050 It also shows that there is a little content in Tajik, 48 00:07:46,050 --> 00:08:01,800 attractive content in Tajik language in the Tajik swept into Tajik and aspect of the internet and the usually Tajiks watch. 49 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:09,900 What is produced in Russian language by Russian TV is by a Russian log us by Russian websites, 50 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:14,940 which means because the English language is not popular in Kazakhstan. 51 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:21,810 Yeah, of course we are trying to to explain them. 52 00:08:21,810 --> 00:08:31,690 The young Tajiks of the English is a language of national language, and you will by learning English, you will have more access. 53 00:08:31,690 --> 00:08:49,770 But the quality of education in Tajikistan is too poor to make them have another source of information rather than English needs. 54 00:08:49,770 --> 00:08:55,200 We will discuss about the media and the internet connectivity as well. 55 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaking about the media, it was said that. 56 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,210 Tajiks, Tajiks, young people watch Russian language content closely. 57 00:09:07,210 --> 00:09:22,300 And this is because of the lack of attractive Tajik language content and also in traditional media and in online media. 58 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:39,220 But yes, I have. So you can still has eight, nine, nine states nationwide TV channels, but the content they produce is quite similar because. 59 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:49,300 Mostly, they copy paste what the main TV channel Tajikistan produces, especially in regard with the news, 60 00:09:49,300 --> 00:10:04,360 and I was told by my friends that a majority of these TV channels have no there are reporters in the fields and the one reporter, 61 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:11,080 one correspondent into some rural area reports for all of these TV channels. 62 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:29,990 And because the report that his he produces is similar and broadcast stimulatory all the news channels in regard with the internet connectivity. 63 00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:39,670 Oh no. Speaking about another problem the Tajik journalism project media faces today. 64 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:51,640 This is self-censorship. Why the Tajik language content is so poor that do not. 65 00:10:51,640 --> 00:11:03,190 That does not attract Tajik audience because of the self self-censorship amongst the Tajik journalists. 66 00:11:03,190 --> 00:11:09,580 It's not only for state owned media, but independent media. 67 00:11:09,580 --> 00:11:13,300 Ezlo, of course, stunning. 68 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:28,330 John, who is a very good expert in the media, in the media for Islam, can prove that it's a big dilemma. 69 00:11:28,330 --> 00:11:44,230 It's a big problem for Tajik journalists to have to find an expert who can comment on this or that topic, especially if the topic is sensitive. 70 00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:59,780 And that's why the Tajik media Tajik professionals cannot produce cannot produce attractive and verified news. 71 00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:14,960 That can create public opinion, we said that young people move from the traditional media to internet media to online media. 72 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,640 Yeah, it's a it's a very growing tendency. 73 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:28,860 But at the same time, the. The old line media faces. 74 00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:44,340 Another problem. Internet chatting, cutting internet, blocking websites, blocking those bloggers who are critical to the government in 2016. 75 00:12:44,340 --> 00:12:58,260 Of course, at the beginning of the millennium, Tajikistan was proud of having the best internet connexion in the former Soviet Union. 76 00:12:58,260 --> 00:13:11,730 We were very close to become an internet hub between Central Asia and Afghanistan, but was coming to who was leading, the communications said. 77 00:13:11,730 --> 00:13:24,960 It was by one person who refused to back the who, who, who, who later became connected with the president's family and friends, 78 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:37,320 obtained an unlimited power was his coming to the power, the internet sector, I.T. sector in Tajikistan declared. 79 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:48,730 And now we have the most expensive and the slowest internet in the world and. 80 00:13:48,730 --> 00:14:10,090 Taking into account the 2016's decision to create a unified, unified communications switching centre or the situation was confirmed, 81 00:14:10,090 --> 00:14:21,340 the commission now is very dangerous because you will have all the law enforcement agencies, 82 00:14:21,340 --> 00:14:31,820 plus the communications service and some other related institutions authority. 83 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:42,500 To cut into internet when they think that it's against the state security and which makes 84 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:52,760 the Tajik population vulnerable to be to be cut off from the outside world at any time 85 00:14:52,760 --> 00:15:02,450 and from some other found issue by the phone crisis that started in November last year is 86 00:15:02,450 --> 00:15:14,150 a very good proof of how the state can violate citizens right to to have a good exit, 87 00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:17,090 to have an access to information. 88 00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:35,620 Just because somebody in the state, a state institution, thinks that having providing internet will suffer the government security state security. 89 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:44,310 Thank you. Thank you very much, Malik, for that sobering set of observations. 90 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:52,580 Let's move on to Salim John both, please. 91 00:15:52,580 --> 00:16:14,880 Thank you. If you will take a look at the legislations of Tajikistan, so everything is perfect, the best possible legislation may be in the region. 92 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,920 For example, every person is guaranteed freedom of speech. 93 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:32,580 Publishing their right to use means so much information, and state censorship and prosecution for criticism is prohibited. 94 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:45,630 This is Article 30 of the Constitution of the Republic of Leduc is done, and we can see the article section of Tajikistan Media Law, 95 00:16:45,630 --> 00:16:50,970 the press and other mass media in the Republic of Tajikistan shall enjoy freedom. 96 00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:58,290 Each citizen of the Republic of Tajikistan have the right to freely express convictions 97 00:16:58,290 --> 00:17:04,920 and hold opinions to impart them in any form through the press and other media, 98 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:12,840 the mass media. No censorship of the most information shall be allowed so. 99 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:25,830 This is usually when international organisations are evaluating the situation in digital Islam, they're always pointing out to those articles. 100 00:17:25,830 --> 00:17:39,750 So if we can go further, the interference of state entities to the editorial issues of any media outlet is prohibited and things like this. 101 00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:45,240 But the reality is, unfortunately, the reality is vice versa. 102 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:56,230 And I can say about the entity that I am leading and also the intelligence service of Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty. 103 00:17:56,230 --> 00:18:10,950 So at least in the last three years, we are experiencing a lot of difficulties simply for not doing our job, you know, 104 00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:23,970 so a lot of obstacles that artificial obstacles to create a situation that when journalists are not able to collect information, 105 00:18:23,970 --> 00:18:30,540 the access to information to publisher to bring to the audiences and so on. 106 00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:45,480 And for the time being, we have only six active journalists out of 16 that have been working with us in 2019. 107 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:51,270 Why? Because we are touching sensitive topics. 108 00:18:51,270 --> 00:19:00,560 We are independent and even we are. 109 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:09,230 Destroying those silence zones, the zones, you know that in the tragic media several years ago, 110 00:19:09,230 --> 00:19:20,870 I made this moment certain to find out if there are any topics that the the Tajik media is not. 111 00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:25,700 Touching it all, so it's clear it's a presidential family. 112 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:38,630 The president himself or his family members, some specific ministers and politicians and so on. 113 00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:51,570 And we are not complying to those artificial rules, and that's why the government is somehow punishing us with the accreditation. 114 00:19:51,570 --> 00:19:55,820 For example, even so far since 2019, 115 00:19:55,820 --> 00:20:05,240 five of our journalists five our major I can say best journalists are not permitted by the Ministry 116 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:12,140 of Foreign Affairs of Tajikistan to work and all the time we are applying again and again. 117 00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:21,500 So and they the the the answer is, you know, those applications are under review and it's not. 118 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:24,020 Yes, it's not known. 119 00:20:24,020 --> 00:20:38,420 And so this kind of situation and also since 2019, the government started issuing three months accreditation for our journalists three months ago. 120 00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:43,280 This means abide by the law, abide by regulations. 121 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,950 Three months accreditation is envisioning the full those foreign journalists 122 00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:55,130 who are visiting country for 10 days for four a week or two weeks for months. 123 00:20:55,130 --> 00:21:04,910 So they are giving him three months accreditation. And if the foreign journalists who are always visiting Tajikistan want to stay longer, 124 00:21:04,910 --> 00:21:15,200 so he should go again to prolong to extend the duration of the accreditation so they are using against us this three months accreditation. 125 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:24,830 Why? Because they are given a clear signal to the journalists that so we are giving you permission for three months and we are looking after you. 126 00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:31,220 So if you are not doing well so that after three months, though, 127 00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:39,290 you will join the group of those who have been waiting for accreditation for more than three years. 128 00:21:39,290 --> 00:21:48,350 So this type of situation and also a lot of harassment, intimidation. 129 00:21:48,350 --> 00:22:01,130 Officially, unofficially, for example, last year, the deputy head of the National Bank expelled our crew from the press conference. 130 00:22:01,130 --> 00:22:09,230 And with the very rude language and with the very humiliating our journalists 131 00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:15,770 and we send a note to the Minister of Foreign Affairs about that document, 132 00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:27,830 this or or this type of things or any security agent can approach our journalists and say, You look, you are working for CIA, you are. 133 00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:32,420 You are a spy. So we know where you lead. 134 00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:38,960 We know what's cool. Your kid is good. We know your father, we know your brother and so on. 135 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:51,780 And in reality is that we have a lot of a lot of documents, a lot of material that been relatives of our journalists are under a huge pressure. 136 00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:58,860 Whenever the journalist even based in Prague. Is publishing something. 137 00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:11,280 Let's say something not left by by the people in the government or especially investigative reporting. 138 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:19,660 So the next day, security agents will come to his or her father or brother for the talk. 139 00:23:19,660 --> 00:23:28,200 And so and those talks are always and the threats and with. 140 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:42,120 And in one case, at least I lost my one of the best investigative reporters because his father was fired from from the government, 141 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:57,030 although he was doing purely technical job and his brother was fired from a company that somehow related to the presidential family. 142 00:23:57,030 --> 00:24:07,170 And so and by the end, he had a shield and an ultimatum that to leave out of here at an start which the left. 143 00:24:07,170 --> 00:24:16,320 So now this that this kind of situation, we know a lot of moments when the people, 144 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,780 especially officials, are creating obstacles for our journalists to do their job. 145 00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:29,820 Even sometimes our journalists were beaten up or detained by police for two or three or five hours. 146 00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:35,130 Things like this. But overall. So what? 147 00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:46,140 What is the good news that our journalists have every time after this type of situation, they became more courageous and brave? 148 00:24:46,140 --> 00:24:56,640 Just do because they understand how how serious their work is so and about the overall media situation. 149 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,890 Unfortunately, I am. I am looking closely. I am watching closely. 150 00:25:01,890 --> 00:25:06,000 Obviously, this situation in many years. 151 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:17,280 So if we compared even this year with the 2021 or 2022 when the pandemic's adopted and again, 152 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:26,760 although there was what was under fire because of reporting about the COVID 19, 153 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:40,080 even comparing this year with the trainee trainee we have, we have the aggravating situation of freedom of press, 154 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:46,230 you know, and this is a kind of trend this coming year by year down. 155 00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:54,030 And so because. 156 00:25:54,030 --> 00:26:00,750 Many experts believe that is the kind of preparation for the power transition in Tajikistan, 157 00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:11,040 so recently we had the news from Turkmenistan and maybe even so something is going on about the power transition there. 158 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:19,920 And Tajikistan so far is the only country in the region that is awaiting this moment. 159 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:30,750 And about a badakhshan just two days ago, I made some kind of kind of. 160 00:26:30,750 --> 00:26:42,600 Conclusion, how we what we have done during this time since November, when the crisis erupted in Badakhshan. 161 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:57,650 So I think maybe, maybe it's it's good to settle for a proud statement, but I should say that maybe, maybe the reports, 162 00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:05,550 the analysis and material that my colleagues published somehow deter the government 163 00:27:05,550 --> 00:27:13,070 from any kind of military action and kind of further violence in Badakhshan. 164 00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:20,940 Why? Because it's not done straight for kind of special purpose. 165 00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:27,210 We just cover what have been going on in Badakhshan from the very beginning. 166 00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:34,020 And there was a lot of signals from from the official that not to do this. 167 00:27:34,020 --> 00:27:38,670 And just to stop reporting about Badakhshan. So again, 168 00:27:38,670 --> 00:27:47,550 we are not complying to this and we published a lot of reports even about the smaller things are 169 00:27:47,550 --> 00:27:59,190 happening in this region of the country away because we we clearly remember what happened in 20 in 2012. 170 00:27:59,190 --> 00:28:06,420 When when the military operation took place in this region and on the other side, 171 00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:23,370 we are since then we created a very good network of citizen journalists on a network of sources who are sharing with us. 172 00:28:23,370 --> 00:28:26,070 Any piece of information, what is going on? 173 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:39,870 And this was the only way to to to to prevail over top to overtake the situation when the internet was or was not available in Badakhshan. 174 00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:45,360 And I remember in this place what happened in 2012. 175 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:54,060 We had a journalist in horo. And so there was no internet at all. 176 00:28:54,060 --> 00:28:58,200 And we do not know what is going on there. 177 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:04,310 And our journalist made his reports. 178 00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:17,480 And save the pictures, short videos on a flash car giving it to the driver who is driving to Dushanbe and the driver in Dushanbe will enter 179 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:25,610 the city car is calling our colleagues in Dushanbe bureau and someone will go and pick up the police car and bring. 180 00:29:25,610 --> 00:29:36,720 And then all the five transported to Prague and broadcast the either in in two TV news programmes or radio or website. 181 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:49,730 So I mean, the message from what whatever I said there, if the officials are thinking that by doing such things, 182 00:29:49,730 --> 00:29:57,030 cutting out people from the internet are blocking also these web pages. 183 00:29:57,030 --> 00:30:09,410 Just a week ago, we started we we founded a new web page mirror web page that that the Tajik officials now are not able to block and on. 184 00:30:09,410 --> 00:30:22,520 And we are giving we are promoting the the the URL of this web page and it's doing very well and hundreds of new readers, new subscribers are coming. 185 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:29,210 And if they think that by doing this, cutting internet, silencing journalists, 186 00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:39,680 not allowing them to go to to speak to the people or not giving them accreditation or giving them three months accreditation with this some kind of 187 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:54,140 box law do what what we need you should do or things like this or even the closure of the Dushanbe Bureau of Radios or the will not stop us at all. 188 00:30:54,140 --> 00:31:00,790 And this is the message that your government and. 189 00:31:00,790 --> 00:31:10,840 I can't I haven't some small statistics for the evidence since then when the government started doing all this stuff against us. 190 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:20,290 The no the our audiences are growing and growing and growing, and now we have over 1.6 million subscribers on YouTube. 191 00:31:20,290 --> 00:31:31,090 One point four million followers on on the Instagram and the web page are the new Mirror web page. 192 00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:37,360 He's bringing thousands of new readers, new users to tell us. 193 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,170 So I think it's 21st century. 194 00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:54,500 And as you're not pointed out, that everyone can using form can connect to any part of the world and to find any kind of information they learn. 195 00:31:54,500 --> 00:32:05,050 So and I think maybe it's much better when when some officials are telling us why you are reporting Badakhshan, 196 00:32:05,050 --> 00:32:10,590 some what they have done this or that and stop doing it, I am telling them, 197 00:32:10,590 --> 00:32:17,860 Okay, stop doing bad things and we will not we will not have anything to report. 198 00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:23,740 You know, this is simple. It's everything it is. Depends on you, not on us. 199 00:32:23,740 --> 00:32:29,350 Because when you when you are doing something, when you are killing some young men during the detention. 200 00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:33,190 So we will report it. Don't kill him. 201 00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:41,080 So this is a simple or negotiate with your own people, not force them to accept. 202 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:49,840 What do you think if you think somebody is is a criminal or bring him to justice, 203 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,780 not pressed on the people that you should catch this guy and bring to us, you know? 204 00:32:55,780 --> 00:33:08,380 And so a lot of stuff. But but I will stop here and thank you, professor, for inviting me to this panel. 205 00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:16,000 Thank you. Thank you very much. Salim John, that really was fascinating and even gives us some grounds for hope. 206 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:23,770 You know what you were saying about the training of citizen journalists, the inability to completely control information flows? 207 00:33:23,770 --> 00:33:32,470 So despite a very bad situation in general, clearly there is some opening for what you say. 208 00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:38,290 Let's move on now to Iran, and then we will come back later to many of these issues that have been raised. 209 00:33:38,290 --> 00:33:45,850 Yes, thank you for having me. And I will be brief because actually much of my my thoughts tie into what the previous 210 00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:50,650 speaker said and I think I'm doing is an important thing in that in general, 211 00:33:50,650 --> 00:33:55,000 the situation is not good at all. But if we look at the larger trends, 212 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:03,320 digital technology cannot be ignored any longer and it really I think it really plays a role in state society relations. 213 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:03,530 Mean, 214 00:34:03,530 --> 00:34:12,400 it's it's not without any reason that the state really the only ultimate thing it can do regarding the internet is completely blocking the internet, 215 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,060 right? I mean, because people can often use a VPN. 216 00:34:16,060 --> 00:34:26,530 And if we compare Tajikistan nowadays with Tajikistan 10 years ago, then in terms of connectivity at household or individual level has increased. 217 00:34:26,530 --> 00:34:31,720 I mean, is has really increased in terms of connectivity to outside factors, right? 218 00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:36,520 So within the country, but also internationally, so that that really changes. 219 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:43,060 And so there there are several paradoxes and ambiguities, I think, because I mean, 220 00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:51,550 the state or the digital regime really understands the importance of internet nowadays, right for its socio economic development for migrants. 221 00:34:51,550 --> 00:34:55,420 The state needs access to the internet itself as well. 222 00:34:55,420 --> 00:35:02,890 Digitalisation is clearly on the agenda of international donors, for instance, for agriculture and so on. 223 00:35:02,890 --> 00:35:10,540 But at the same time, if the government is obviously worried about the potential of interest to unrest and conflict, I mean, 224 00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:18,940 if you look at groups on Facebook, you see really that people express grievances on Facebook rather than going out on the street. 225 00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:26,260 I mean, they protests grew on on groups, on Facebook, for instance, and I mean other channels. 226 00:35:26,260 --> 00:35:31,420 So you see that also IMO, for instance, is very popular into the Sun nowadays. 227 00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:39,070 And even though I mean, this is again some kind of ambiguity that the state can also use the social media to control people, right? 228 00:35:39,070 --> 00:35:51,940 So there are these different possibilities or the different what you say, threats or possibilities of of digital technology in general. 229 00:35:51,940 --> 00:36:00,230 So yeah, there is. There's also the paradox in a way in that last year, I think it was some. 230 00:36:00,230 --> 00:36:08,660 You called for improving access to internet and actually enhancing the quality of service providers, 231 00:36:08,660 --> 00:36:12,410 while at the same time they're blocking internet in parts of the country too. 232 00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:18,860 So yeah, I mean, you see these conflicting trends or conflicting actions by the government. 233 00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:25,280 But all in all, I see this digital technology is changing things even though there are clear divides. 234 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:31,100 I mean, what I also observed that Dickerson is that there is a clear gender digital divide. 235 00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:36,920 We could say right it if you look in the countryside, but obvious as well in in urban areas, 236 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:43,100 it's that women are less often have used to a smartphone or to internet or telephones in general. 237 00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:51,020 And also the elderly are much less less well connected, so they less often have smartphones and so on. 238 00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:56,750 And of course, because of the high, I mean, the fact that the internet is so expensive, 239 00:36:56,750 --> 00:37:03,350 that really is a barrier for people to make use of of internet or social media. 240 00:37:03,350 --> 00:37:13,580 So even though there is, there are less like publicly accredited journalists, I think overall the landscape has changed over the past decade. 241 00:37:13,580 --> 00:37:19,810 Thank you. Thanks very much. And I, of course, I think you're you're perfectly right, 242 00:37:19,810 --> 00:37:28,510 the paradoxical situation of both the government relying upon the internet and wanting to promote it, on the one hand, if only to control people. 243 00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:33,490 And it's fear of the same medium on the other is really, you know, 244 00:37:33,490 --> 00:37:41,470 gives us a lot to think about and it connects up to what Salim John especially was saying. 245 00:37:41,470 --> 00:37:50,850 So let me just pose a couple of questions and then we can continue the discussion and ask you if any of you have questions of the other as well. 246 00:37:50,850 --> 00:37:55,780 So, Malik, you know what struck me when you were speaking? I was not. 247 00:37:55,780 --> 00:38:08,020 I was astounded or not necessarily surprised by what you were saying about the Tajik government's lack of. 248 00:38:08,020 --> 00:38:15,580 If you will, media dominance, it can stop media, but it doesn't have its own narrative so much, 249 00:38:15,580 --> 00:38:22,000 given the fact that it's Russian media that's in your account seems to play the largest role 250 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:28,090 in where information is coming from and what people are watching and what people are reading. 251 00:38:28,090 --> 00:38:41,320 It did strike me when he was speaking whether, for instance, Iranian or Afghan media outlets since, you know, both would be in in in Persian. 252 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:47,050 That is less Tajik and therefore mutually comprehensible play any role at all. 253 00:38:47,050 --> 00:38:57,490 So on the one hand, that's one question I want to ask you about other forms of regional media from outside the country on both sides of this, 254 00:38:57,490 --> 00:39:02,020 you know, on off of the country, Iran and Afghanistan. 255 00:39:02,020 --> 00:39:05,890 And secondly, you know, the fact that the budget, 256 00:39:05,890 --> 00:39:17,650 government or media presence seems not to have so much its own narrative, but has relies upon, say, Russian narratives. 257 00:39:17,650 --> 00:39:25,980 What does that tell us about the way in which they can in fact control media narratives, given what they're not just said? 258 00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:39,870 Yeah, thank you. Very good question. Regarding the regarding the question about the foreign media affecting the public opinion, 259 00:39:39,870 --> 00:39:54,060 there was a very curious situation some 10 12 years ago when a personal pleasure guest I visited a border area with Uzbekistan 260 00:39:54,060 --> 00:40:10,270 and visited a school and just asked a question to ask a cultural school boy a question quiz your president and the boy, 261 00:40:10,270 --> 00:40:15,660 said Mr Karimov Islam Karimov. 262 00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:20,670 So who's the president of the children? 263 00:40:20,670 --> 00:40:25,350 Were thinking that Uzbek President Islam Karimov is their president. 264 00:40:25,350 --> 00:40:35,520 Just because they were watching was the TV TV's. 265 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:45,820 Speaking about the Iranian Afghan TV channels and their influence on Tajik opinion, public opinion. 266 00:40:45,820 --> 00:41:03,390 Yeah, the survey that I was speaking about, they also showed that there is a big audience who watch the Iranian TV channels the Gem TV, 267 00:41:03,390 --> 00:41:15,250 but this audience usually watched the entertainment, not the news, 268 00:41:15,250 --> 00:41:23,340 when something Southern was speaking about, about the pressure on media and journalists. 269 00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:41,520 I was thinking that, yes, president, these tapes of Tajik state authorities, they think they live in Beijing go new ways, new tools of President Day. 270 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:54,190 We go on the independent journalism, but this is a medal with two sides from one hand. 271 00:41:54,190 --> 00:42:01,240 When you accuse the independent Joe, of this, you get little criticism on your activity, 272 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:09,940 but from another hand, when you need the independent journalists, you will have nothing. 273 00:42:09,940 --> 00:42:16,600 It's a very good example is the conflict between Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan, 274 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:25,360 when the cell wall was accepting it was having information about this conflict, 275 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:32,680 about this conflict through the country's media because they were very active. 276 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:42,430 There have a lot of a lot of media outlets that produce content in Russian and English. 277 00:42:42,430 --> 00:42:53,680 So for international audience in Tajikistan or had only one or two or three media outlets that 278 00:42:53,680 --> 00:43:00,910 had an international audience or that had to produce content for not only for internal audience, 279 00:43:00,910 --> 00:43:11,290 but for international audience. Also the Asia Plus and so news. 280 00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:24,670 Which means that we lost the so-called information war total, and it was not the fault of journalists. 281 00:43:24,670 --> 00:43:29,650 It was the fault of the state authorities, first of all. 282 00:43:29,650 --> 00:43:38,690 They just independent journalists do not have that say they did not provide information. 283 00:43:38,690 --> 00:43:46,910 So that journalists report on set for not only for local audience, 284 00:43:46,910 --> 00:43:55,430 not all of the footage, it's just the if when you are fighting in the information space, 285 00:43:55,430 --> 00:44:08,600 your audience should be international and in order to have an image of the aggressor or defender and the well 286 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:22,970 have what lost total loses this battle and another or another side of the metal is that by cutting internet, 287 00:44:22,970 --> 00:44:33,470 by slowing its speeds, the state is cutting its economy from it. 288 00:44:33,470 --> 00:44:46,730 Because the current situation is that the world is moving to the digital economy and there are a lot of money, 289 00:44:46,730 --> 00:44:51,380 a lot of funds in digital and digital economy. 290 00:44:51,380 --> 00:45:01,310 But we are losing those income well, losing because we are not moving forward while saying we are fighting for survival. 291 00:45:01,310 --> 00:45:05,710 So to survive, not have to develop. 292 00:45:05,710 --> 00:45:21,640 That's why we usually try to explain the government that, hey, guys, your time of keeping everything in there under your total control has gone. 293 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:38,890 Now the situation has changed and you have to lead the new conditions and in order to succeed, in order to to to move forward, but not to block it. 294 00:45:38,890 --> 00:45:50,380 Thanks very much. I mean it, it all again goes to show what you was saying earlier the kind of bizarre absence of a government narrative. 295 00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:55,480 They must have a narrative, it must be their newspapers and all the rest, but unable to actually promote it, 296 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:01,760 as you suggest against their own regional rivals or even in order to convince perhaps their own people, 297 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,820 given the fact that their own people are watching Russian television or, you know, 298 00:46:06,820 --> 00:46:12,610 the children might think that the president of their country actually is the president of another country. 299 00:46:12,610 --> 00:46:21,640 It's really a fascinating situation is a state of a government that on the one hand one, the one hand seems to have full control. 300 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:31,330 And yet, on the other hand, it doesn't have its own story to tell in a credible or powerful manner. 301 00:46:31,330 --> 00:46:34,720 I'd like to tie into that, of course, and go ahead. 302 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,520 I found it also. I mean, it ties into this. 303 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:45,550 This is a bit of a remarkable that was revealed last week that the current mayor of InSAR has a bank account in Switzerland, right? 304 00:46:45,550 --> 00:46:52,540 And he responded in Tajik media explains why he was not responding to the international reports in English. 305 00:46:52,540 --> 00:46:58,240 Or, I mean, had it translated into English to to comment on those on the organisation which revealed it. 306 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:05,710 When he commented, he gave an interview in Tajik media, explaining that due to his role necessary treatment in Europe, 307 00:47:05,710 --> 00:47:10,660 he and someone else had opened a bank account on his name. So there's this wall. 308 00:47:10,660 --> 00:47:16,630 There is no dialogue, but that's the way in which he then addressed basically the domestic audience to explain. 309 00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:19,210 Well, I mean, I found it a remarkable story, 310 00:47:19,210 --> 00:47:25,970 but that's why he how would you try to convince the domestic audience basically for the reasons of this bank account? 311 00:47:25,970 --> 00:47:30,640 Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. You're right, actually. 312 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,480 Usually because it's a usual practise. 313 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:49,960 Tajik authorities apply to internal entomologists just because they're stupid answers or stupid explanations like what you are, 314 00:47:49,960 --> 00:48:06,730 what you have mentioned. It's accepted by local audience, even if they do not do not to trust what he what they saw to say. 315 00:48:06,730 --> 00:48:14,920 But at least they do not provide some kind of counter action. 316 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:24,040 But if they if the explanation of say is the message went to the external audience, 317 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:36,760 then external audience has will analyse what was saying and to and will respond accordingly. 318 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:45,100 If see if the message was stupid, the response will be also stupid. 319 00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:58,930 That's why the local authorities should go. Authorities try not to not to apply to the international audience just because of their lack of knowledge, 320 00:48:58,930 --> 00:49:04,300 lack of skills and what we know the signage on those. 321 00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:11,080 And probably you also know that Tajik bureaucrats, 322 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:28,600 they the Tajik governing bodies create just based on the it is a relative or oh, they are belonging to some area. 323 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:39,880 Like if you're oh from the from the East, then you are able to get some position. 324 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:46,120 If you are from the north or vice versa, you'll get so. 325 00:49:46,120 --> 00:50:02,830 Relatives, there's nepotism is and when you get your position through nepotism or by through bribery, of course, it doesn't mean that you are clever. 326 00:50:02,830 --> 00:50:09,220 It doesn't mean that you are oh, you are educated. 327 00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:19,810 You just got your position, and you will try to stay on your position on your trip as long as it's possible. 328 00:50:19,810 --> 00:50:38,420 And the a very good example is that the answer for one of the head of the communication is the communications service, Mr Beggs, who was interviewed. 329 00:50:38,420 --> 00:50:55,990 And asked about the cutting internet in the in used in twenty twelve or twenty or eight, he said that's a bullet cut the internet line. 330 00:50:55,990 --> 00:51:02,690 Oh, and a stupid answer because everybody knows that internet line. 331 00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:13,250 No Internet connexion is not like there's like an electricity line, but it it was. 332 00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:27,290 It was responded to the public. It was published and everybody loves still still loves to his stupid, stupid answers. 333 00:51:27,290 --> 00:51:39,380 But it works because no response to the the government does not take takes action against him. 334 00:51:39,380 --> 00:51:52,950 Of course, sometimes sometimes such stupid, stupid statements he made to. 335 00:51:52,950 --> 00:52:08,670 Hope and effect on the Ozone. On the one who responded, like, for example, the last year, a deputy minister of health went during an interview. 336 00:52:08,670 --> 00:52:19,950 He just made the jokes or he was just did not know the difference between the North and South Korea. 337 00:52:19,950 --> 00:52:26,430 And he lost his. He lost his job because of this stupid answer. 338 00:52:26,430 --> 00:52:34,980 But some officials are more connected to the for the presidential family. 339 00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:47,960 They they can't they can't respond any kind of stupid answers, but they still keep their positions while others lose their positions. 340 00:52:47,960 --> 00:53:02,520 Thank you very much, Salim John. Yes, I should add one thing because I just went in, I was mentioning this situation, this anecdote that so. 341 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:08,450 I should confess that the president Rahmon. 342 00:53:08,450 --> 00:53:14,840 Somehow, lax journalists and somehow lax freedom of speech. 343 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:28,460 Why? Because I assume that this former minister made this stupid statement because because the president or somebody on behalf of the president said, 344 00:53:28,460 --> 00:53:33,320 Did you respond to this media publication? 345 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,970 Now he can say yes, I responded. I explained everything. 346 00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:45,170 So this type of things are characteristic of for Mr. Rahman. 347 00:53:45,170 --> 00:54:00,080 He is always, not always. I've witnessed many times when he said that, so we need to respond whatever the mass media are telling about us. 348 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:09,560 And it goes about the professor David Yu's oppression, about the government narratives. 349 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:16,720 So and and if you remember that those press conferences. 350 00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:26,740 War order led by Rahman. He ordered every ministry, every government entity. 351 00:54:26,740 --> 00:54:36,790 At the beginning, it was, I think, twice twice a year if Abdul Malik can confirm that or three times more. 352 00:54:36,790 --> 00:54:47,640 So it was a kind of. He signed a decree that every entity should give a press conference every three months or six months, something like this. 353 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,750 And it wasn't. It wasn't every quarter quarterly. Every quarter, yes. 354 00:54:51,750 --> 00:54:55,150 Yes, this quarter. But now it's half a year. Yeah. 355 00:54:55,150 --> 00:54:57,910 But now officials may have a year. 356 00:54:57,910 --> 00:55:08,530 And moreover, this year they invented, as you said, they invented a very interesting way to put 13 press conferences and in one day. 357 00:55:08,530 --> 00:55:12,670 So when we have a small group of journalists and we, 358 00:55:12,670 --> 00:55:23,170 we were not able to and some some of the people on social media said that to date, had you journalists became a kind of Spider-Men. 359 00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:33,010 They should. They should go out of any ministry. So going back to Ramone's know that it comes actually, it comes from the Soviet time. 360 00:55:33,010 --> 00:55:35,200 You know, during the Soviet time, 361 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:50,110 it was kind of unwritten law by the Communist Party that if anything will be published on a mass media about the government or party officials, 362 00:55:50,110 --> 00:55:55,270 they should immediately respond to to to this publication. 363 00:55:55,270 --> 00:56:08,320 So and about government narratives, I should say that unfortunately, the biggest problem, even not if they have this narration or not. 364 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:19,870 But the biggest problem is that we are facing a kind of big, big, big crisis of cadres. 365 00:56:19,870 --> 00:56:28,720 So before before joining the Tijuca service, I was leading the special project Central Asian Newswire, 366 00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:41,320 and I was hiring young journalists in four countries in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, in Kyrgyzstan. 367 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:54,490 And it gave me a kind of moment of comparison to see what kind of what the quality of of journalists, young journalists in each country. 368 00:56:54,490 --> 00:57:00,130 So I gave Kazakhstan the highest mark. 369 00:57:00,130 --> 00:57:11,290 And then Kyrgyzstan, I'm sorry. And then Kazakhstan. Then I was in kind of thinking, Who is stronger? 370 00:57:11,290 --> 00:57:19,090 Tajikistan, all those you start. And then I started working with many, many different journalists in both countries. 371 00:57:19,090 --> 00:57:24,220 So I decided Uzbekistan is no either no at all or number three. 372 00:57:24,220 --> 00:57:34,150 But Tajikistan is the last one because and the quality of countries is going down and down every every year. 373 00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:48,610 I don't know have a lot of universities every year about, I think 1200 journalists are graduating from colleges, from universities. 374 00:57:48,610 --> 00:57:59,830 But even though when the government is shrinking the number of radio also the journalists in Dushanbe and we are trying to find new talent. 375 00:57:59,830 --> 00:58:15,700 It's very difficult. It's hard to find someone that do not need extra training, just to come in to start writing in normal Tajik, you know. 376 00:58:15,700 --> 00:58:19,510 And I am offering the your government there look weak. 377 00:58:19,510 --> 00:58:27,280 Every year we can, we can invite maybe up to 20 young journalists for the intern for the internship, 378 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:32,380 and they can work and they can learn, and some of them maybe later join us. 379 00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:40,960 So the Minister of Foreign Affairs prohibits the radio already of inviting any student for the internship, you know. 380 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:52,170 So this kind of situation, maybe the narration is there is that there is some narration, but no one is able clearly to articulate this narration. 381 00:58:52,170 --> 00:59:03,660 And the government is not paying attention that I think 10 years or 20 years from now, there will be no journalists or normal journalists at all. 382 00:59:03,660 --> 00:59:07,370 You know, professionals at all. Thank you. 383 00:59:07,370 --> 00:59:12,160 You know, I agree with what John said. 384 00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:24,760 Just because of the kinds of universities who have a lot of other universities who produce all the so-called journalists. 385 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:39,520 But as John said, everyone who graduated from the university and comes to the newsroom needs to start from zero because the programme, 386 00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:46,540 the education programme that is educated in the universities, they own, 387 00:59:46,540 --> 00:59:55,270 the all stars they are the styles of the 80s or 90s of stage four of the previous century. 388 00:59:55,270 --> 01:00:12,700 And really, universities luck, qualified qualified professors, qualified teachers because I was when I was leading the interviews in Tajikistan, 389 01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:23,440 was trying to cooperate with the statute of the state universities in order to provide them assistance 390 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:39,280 in having new role in having cadres and having teachers who are able to teach students on new media, 391 01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:55,330 on new technologies. And it was very it was very difficult for us to reach these all these universities because just because we are Western 392 01:00:55,330 --> 01:01:11,260 sponsored or Western Organisation who wants to support and the meaning of waste is who is accepted as an enemy for you. 393 01:01:11,260 --> 01:01:19,360 And that's why this is the this is the problem that makes a between the. 394 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:29,500 International organisations want to support and the local institutions will need this support, unfortunately. 395 01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:30,280 Thanks. 396 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:42,130 I want to move to what Ernie had said about protests moving online, and of course, once that happens, that online space cannot be confined to son. 397 01:01:42,130 --> 01:01:53,110 And I'm sure it includes, you know, the very great number of young Tajiks, especially who are live in Russia and in other parts of the world. 398 01:01:53,110 --> 01:01:58,630 And you know, I wonder what kind of influence or effect they have because they're exposed to a much wider, 399 01:01:58,630 --> 01:02:08,260 I imagine, much wider set of sources of information in the detainment than people in Tajikistan themselves. 400 01:02:08,260 --> 01:02:13,480 So what role do you think this diaspora plays? 401 01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:21,140 That's one question, and I'll begin with another second question has to do with again, this issue of narrative. 402 01:02:21,140 --> 01:02:27,220 You know, Salim John, in his initial presentation, spoke about how the laws are perfect. 403 01:02:27,220 --> 01:02:31,600 So all the real control happens informally doesn't happen by law. 404 01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,640 It happens as it were underneath the law. 405 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:43,810 Also very, very interesting that kind of informality of control, which means that there are no regulations or they are only informal regulations. 406 01:02:43,810 --> 01:02:54,540 But when you do look at. Elements of a state narrative turning now to you as to how the role is in the bombers, for instance, 407 01:02:54,540 --> 01:03:02,700 you see the deployment of despite being anti-Western, a very Western style narrative of counterterrorism. 408 01:03:02,700 --> 01:03:08,340 Of course, the Russians also use this. It's not believable, but there you have it. 409 01:03:08,340 --> 01:03:16,140 So, you know, even the state narrative seems to be picked up globally from here and there and used or misused. 410 01:03:16,140 --> 01:03:26,730 So, you know, shall we begin with Iran and then move on to Salim John and to Malick addressing these these kinds of issues? 411 01:03:26,730 --> 01:03:32,730 Yes. Thank you for this interesting question. Well, I think that language plays an important role here as well. 412 01:03:32,730 --> 01:03:38,490 I mean, in terms of what people can access, right? And indeed there, I mean there. 413 01:03:38,490 --> 01:03:44,310 I mean, I don't know the current figures, but the 800000 a million Tajiks in Russia. 414 01:03:44,310 --> 01:03:49,590 But there are, of course, many also young people studying in Europe or in the US. 415 01:03:49,590 --> 01:03:53,280 And they I mean, there's huge differences as well. 416 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,900 I mean, in terms of what these people, I mean, these different segments of society. 417 01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:03,150 Right. But what kind of news they are exposed to when the voices they hear and see? 418 01:04:03,150 --> 01:04:09,480 So I find it very difficult to generalise in this regard because if you are working as a labour migrant in Russia, 419 01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:14,430 you obviously have you are exposed to a different narrative or voice, right? 420 01:04:14,430 --> 01:04:18,720 And when you are in Europe or the US. So there is a big difference here. But what I saw? 421 01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:26,490 I mean, see, recently I was also talking with people from the prime years currently in the US, of course. 422 01:04:26,490 --> 01:04:30,140 I mean. What did I want to say here? 423 01:04:30,140 --> 01:04:36,500 I mean, they I mean, there's much more connectivity in this regard, and those people, I think, 424 01:04:36,500 --> 01:04:44,040 are more active then than perhaps part of the labour markets where they have an other kind of activity, right? 425 01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:49,340 And they also have a different network. So I mean, that's related to the kind of voices they hear. 426 01:04:49,340 --> 01:04:55,880 They yeah, they are their network is different in in this regard. 427 01:04:55,880 --> 01:05:02,740 But I think that was actually what I my my my previous comment or what I wanted to say is that in this regard, 428 01:05:02,740 --> 01:05:10,810 there is a difference in if you compare it to the extent nowadays and in terms of societal activity right with the Dickerson on ten years ago. 429 01:05:10,810 --> 01:05:17,540 Definitely. Yeah. But language, I think what I mentioned, first of all, is is making a big difference in the kind. 430 01:05:17,540 --> 01:05:22,640 I mean, if you look at, well, basically Russian state controlled controlled media, right? 431 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,180 And and the news, I mean, there's always a select few. 432 01:05:26,180 --> 01:05:28,130 What would you get also in Europe or the US? 433 01:05:28,130 --> 01:05:36,120 We shouldn't forget that, but there's I mean that language well, can be regarded as a barrier in this regard. 434 01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:41,960 Yeah. And I mean, just to touch on the your second question, I think addressed Malik. 435 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,680 I think more in general, we could say that in the DSM, they're state law. 436 01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,820 But the informal requirements sometimes supersede stable, right, 437 01:05:49,820 --> 01:05:55,010 so you have to comply with particular informal requirements rather than with state law. 438 01:05:55,010 --> 01:06:00,000 Yeah. Thanks very much. Salim John, any comment? 439 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:07,530 Yeah. First of all, I completely agree with the last comment the home made by Iran. 440 01:06:07,530 --> 01:06:14,760 And going back to the diasporas and to a global look. 441 01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:24,930 So I'm very happy that having this kind of situation in Tajikistan, we have a completely different situation out of Tajikistan, 442 01:06:24,930 --> 01:06:33,600 where something happens in New York, for example, or in Washington, D.C., or even today, today in Ukraine. 443 01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:39,840 Unfortunately, people are dying and fighting is going on. 444 01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:45,390 We have at least three good citizen journalists. 445 01:06:45,390 --> 01:06:49,530 Tajiks, one of them, student, two of them are migrants, 446 01:06:49,530 --> 01:06:59,820 and they are a bunch of them are doing is a video diary, day to day what is going on outside of his windows. 447 01:06:59,820 --> 01:07:08,010 The second one is visiting some places like Underground Subway, the railway station and other places. 448 01:07:08,010 --> 01:07:16,950 And even yesterday, his car was was was shot by, by, by, by Russian forces. 449 01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:23,040 He showed us four places of the bullets and things got himself OK. 450 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:27,060 And they are doing journalistic work for us, you know, 451 01:07:27,060 --> 01:07:33,300 and we are very happy to work with those young people and we have others in other parts of of Russia. 452 01:07:33,300 --> 01:07:44,840 And the next until the next week, we are planning to make a huge video package about how the situation is influencing Tajik. 453 01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:58,890 They asked for a Tajik migrants across Russia about the banking, about the because they are losing jobs and because of the ruble is is is plunging. 454 01:07:58,890 --> 01:08:08,400 So and so so I mean, I mean when when young people are going out of Tajikistan, they become more open minded. 455 01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:15,120 They become they learn different language languages and they look at the situation 456 01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:19,980 and their mother land completely differently than those who are staying there. 457 01:08:19,980 --> 01:08:31,950 And this is also a kind of ray of hope that maybe future will be much better than than what we have today. 458 01:08:31,950 --> 01:08:37,650 Thank you. It really is inspiring when you hear these stories and, you know, long may they continue. 459 01:08:37,650 --> 01:08:48,810 And and obviously in an improved context, I see we have a couple of questions, but before I go to them, Malik, if you have any comments. 460 01:08:48,810 --> 01:08:55,500 I just. Just a small comment. 461 01:08:55,500 --> 01:09:01,700 I was speaking about the Tajiks abroad and the narratives they have. 462 01:09:01,700 --> 01:09:09,320 It depends on which countries they are, like those who are in the Western countries. 463 01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:21,440 They of course have and the narratives that, well, those who are in Russia, they they will be able to give. 464 01:09:21,440 --> 01:09:33,050 And that was narrative because I remember that some time in twenty fourteen between 2014 and 2016. 465 01:09:33,050 --> 01:09:47,870 A lot of Tajiks who resided in Russia as labour migrants were involved in the extremist groups just because of the narratives they had in Russia. 466 01:09:47,870 --> 01:09:49,640 Because if in Tajikistan, 467 01:09:49,640 --> 01:10:03,500 the state was controlling the controlling the internet and the businessmen trying to cut the extremist messages in Russia, they were free. 468 01:10:03,500 --> 01:10:09,110 They were able to get any kind of information from internet. 469 01:10:09,110 --> 01:10:19,850 And that affected the fact that a lot of young Tajiks were involved in Syria and Iraq. 470 01:10:19,850 --> 01:10:28,230 They were they were involved from Russian, from Russia, not from Tajikistan. 471 01:10:28,230 --> 01:10:39,090 That's a hugely important issue, and it raises a whole set of different questions, obviously, about globalised forms of militancy. 472 01:10:39,090 --> 01:10:44,770 So very, very interesting. But let's get to the the questions that have been asked of the first. 473 01:10:44,770 --> 01:10:50,790 Well, I'll take them in turn by Paddy Coulter, who says a fascinating of disturbing discussion. 474 01:10:50,790 --> 01:10:58,530 But cannot international pressure play a role in challenging the harassment of journalists and the internet and the internet blocking? 475 01:10:58,530 --> 01:11:04,890 Who would like to address that? Can I briefly say something because I was yes. 476 01:11:04,890 --> 01:11:13,110 Well, of course I was following. I mean, regarding the situation in Badakhshan, I was a bit struck because I thought, OK. 477 01:11:13,110 --> 01:11:19,350 The state is actually blocking the internet while international donors, international organisations like Development Corporation, 478 01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:24,480 Right, have been active in Badakhshan and throughout Tajikistan for a long time. 479 01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:29,970 And by blocking the internet, the states actually and doing a part of what these international donors have been doing. 480 01:11:29,970 --> 01:11:38,280 But what I noticed is that I think it was Human Rights Watch they they send out a call with and it was signed by several organisations. 481 01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:43,560 But if I'm not mistaken, only few, if not none of them. 482 01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:49,320 None of the organisation is currently works in. In this Badakhshan region actually signed the letter. 483 01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:55,470 And I think one of the reason is that it's and remains sometimes like a very delicate issue as 484 01:11:55,470 --> 01:12:01,260 an international organisation working in the country to push on on sensitive issues or politics. 485 01:12:01,260 --> 01:12:06,990 Yeah. Yes. No. Thank you. And it certainly the akkadian is, 486 01:12:06,990 --> 01:12:12,510 which is one of the major ones there is is enmeshed in so many of these relations and has so many 487 01:12:12,510 --> 01:12:19,320 responsibilities to shoulder that it is practically disabled from making any statements at all. 488 01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:25,980 But I'm sure this is true of some of the others as well. Let me move to Jody Hilton's question, 489 01:12:25,980 --> 01:12:35,790 which is what are the main messages disinformation campaigns are promoting concerning the political and security situation in global action? 490 01:12:35,790 --> 01:12:42,480 And who is behind those campaigns? Is it solely the state of the check is done or is Russia also involved? 491 01:12:42,480 --> 01:12:46,470 So shall we? I'll have each of you take a stab at this. 492 01:12:46,470 --> 01:12:51,290 So we begin with you, Salim John. Sure. 493 01:12:51,290 --> 01:13:02,660 Yes. As as it was mentioned, even from the very beginning from from 2009 and later on, so the main, 494 01:13:02,660 --> 01:13:18,170 the main that's a cover or the main narration of the government was fighting terrorism, drug trafficking, organised crime and so on. 495 01:13:18,170 --> 01:13:29,430 And and this is something that even Western countries, as you mention that it's it's somewhat somehow western. 496 01:13:29,430 --> 01:13:32,360 That's a slogan or thing. 497 01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:45,620 So and it's understandable in the West and Western leaders, somehow they accept that maybe there is something because of this and that and then. 498 01:13:45,620 --> 01:13:47,600 And yeah, 499 01:13:47,600 --> 01:14:07,670 I think the the issue is the roots goes back to the Civil War because Badakhshan was one of the opposition strongholds during the 1992 97 Civil War. 500 01:14:07,670 --> 01:14:20,870 And as we witnessed through from that time until now, there were several military operations in Durham region, in Tamil, in other places. 501 01:14:20,870 --> 01:14:29,790 And it's a kind of I could say that it kind of. 502 01:14:29,790 --> 01:14:37,900 The power is created that there is some other leaders who can lead the people. 503 01:14:37,900 --> 01:14:53,040 And and so there was a kind of cleansing of fleet local leaders in other regions during that time, you know, especially those who can or can. 504 01:14:53,040 --> 01:15:00,820 Maybe you can take care of people who care, who can and can't do something militarily and so on. 505 01:15:00,820 --> 01:15:05,300 And but but national remained untouched until 2009. 506 01:15:05,300 --> 01:15:13,820 Then something first happened. Then in 2012 there was a huge military operation there. 507 01:15:13,820 --> 01:15:21,720 And this kind of disbelief are of the sea and the nature of Badakhshan. 508 01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:29,130 Just imagine this is autonomous region for some form by the law that you constitution. 509 01:15:29,130 --> 01:15:37,890 Second, people are speaking different languages and Tajik speaking primary languages. 510 01:15:37,890 --> 01:15:43,360 Third, and they are different religious. 511 01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:51,640 You know, they are followers of it's my Milo Shia branch of Islam and all this stuff. 512 01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:58,360 So and maybe on at some point some statements by Badakhshan, 513 01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:05,330 the young people either inside of Badakhshan or outside of Badakhshan that we are different. 514 01:16:05,330 --> 01:16:10,600 We need, we need to separate ourselves from from the whole other things. 515 01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:19,880 You know, when when the situation, the economic situation, the social situation and overall situation is better in every country. 516 01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:31,990 So look at Afghanistan. There was a lot of statements about the federalism about the war, keeping some territory separate from others. 517 01:16:31,990 --> 01:16:38,860 Anything like this now and maybe all those kind of things come together, 518 01:16:38,860 --> 01:16:45,070 many different different factors, and they play the role for for the government to act like this. 519 01:16:45,070 --> 01:16:58,810 However, there was no necessarily to use force against these young men, but Zoback or so if they did not succeed. 520 01:16:58,810 --> 01:17:04,480 Detained him on November 21st. So it's OK, he will go. 521 01:17:04,480 --> 01:17:12,550 So it's OK. Let's to find some way to catch him in some other places and in the market. 522 01:17:12,550 --> 01:17:13,280 I don't know. 523 01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:27,670 As we know that he every week he was driving to the Central Bureau for for the gym and the gym is just next door today to the police office, you know? 524 01:17:27,670 --> 01:17:33,010 And if there was no other kind of writing station, 525 01:17:33,010 --> 01:17:41,800 so if they were not able to catch him on November 21st or it was easily just to say, OK, let him go. 526 01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:48,670 So let's do some some other ways, detain him another day. 527 01:17:48,670 --> 01:17:57,520 So imagine simple, and there is no such a problem that we have now in Badakhshan today, you know? 528 01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:08,560 But it's looking like the problems are deeper and maybe the involvement of others we don't know. 529 01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:18,280 And yeah, and thanks God that so far the situation will be there a lot of pressure on the local population. 530 01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:30,910 There are a lot of provocations, but so far the situation is is, let's say, not normal, but not going to the bloodshed. 531 01:18:30,910 --> 01:18:40,390 And but so this needs some, and the message was not clear. 532 01:18:40,390 --> 01:18:48,310 Even today we had a blog a young blogger wrote that OK, if this guy, she means Mohammad Booker. 533 01:18:48,310 --> 01:18:55,360 Muhammad Botero is a criminal. So first just convince the people that he is a criminal. 534 01:18:55,360 --> 01:19:00,670 And before calling someone a criminal, you should have a court. 535 01:19:00,670 --> 01:19:12,730 You should have the charges, accusations and somebody who can bring evidence and some other defendants. 536 01:19:12,730 --> 01:19:17,080 So the old procedure, trial, court procedure. 537 01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:26,980 So and when there is nothing like this or of course, people will not trust the government and the government is not trusting the people. 538 01:19:26,980 --> 01:19:29,810 So we have this kind of situation. 539 01:19:29,810 --> 01:19:41,330 Thank you, Salim John Malik, do you want to take a stab at that question about global action and Tajikistan, as well as the Russian influence? 540 01:19:41,330 --> 01:19:44,810 Couple couple of additions. 541 01:19:44,810 --> 01:19:55,130 Tajikistan is considered as a country, Tajikistan as the regime is considered by international organisations as a dictatorship, 542 01:19:55,130 --> 01:20:02,510 and it's clear that a dictator dictatorship doesn't accept any kind of situation when 543 01:20:02,510 --> 01:20:12,890 some part of six of its countries for Islam is not a be totally totally central command. 544 01:20:12,890 --> 01:20:30,260 And Malaysia is the only region in Portugal songs that have that which people have their own opinions and that they are able to express their opinion. 545 01:20:30,260 --> 01:20:45,080 And they several times proved that they can fight for their rights, which is not acceptable by the by Dushanbe. 546 01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,460 And of course, because of course, 547 01:20:48,460 --> 01:21:04,710 the other question is how competent are the managers that the central the Central Command sends to the regions to manage the region? 548 01:21:04,710 --> 01:21:20,130 One, six one In 2018, President Rahul appointed a local the local person because local. 549 01:21:20,130 --> 01:21:27,210 Yield Gore face off as a manager, as a governor of the. 550 01:21:27,210 --> 01:21:35,040 Oh, everything was OK. And during his governance for three years, no incident was safe. 551 01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:45,420 But in two event, also last year, somebody in the presidential office thought that that's that's enough. 552 01:21:45,420 --> 01:21:53,940 It's time to charge them. And they tend to persons from the military, from the law enforcement. 553 01:21:53,940 --> 01:22:00,810 And this situation totally changed because different styles of management. 554 01:22:00,810 --> 01:22:11,370 If the previous one was managing through dialogue with people, the new one, 555 01:22:11,370 --> 01:22:25,710 who is the graduated from the KGB KGB institution used the same tools that now Mr. Putin uses. 556 01:22:25,710 --> 01:22:37,830 So. Similar style with the Russian governance and the difference that was approved with the for Pfizer, 557 01:22:37,830 --> 01:22:52,310 which makes the situation very complicated, and when we're speaking about the messages of disinformation of disinformation, it's one. 558 01:22:52,310 --> 01:23:00,650 It's flying in different Star Wars. It's it's a struggle between the. 559 01:23:00,650 --> 01:23:16,010 State management and the population regarding the incidents and like in every one of the sides, the parties use the tools they have. 560 01:23:16,010 --> 01:23:36,890 So it's a battle, though the government has TV's real media and uses it as well as large as as Leslie as it can do it. 561 01:23:36,890 --> 01:23:44,060 And cutting the internet is also one tool to battle the conflicts to combat. 562 01:23:44,060 --> 01:23:57,080 So who are we? The question is whether it's the Tajik state only or Russians are also involved. 563 01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:04,550 I don't think that Russians are involved in developing a strategy for developing some messages 564 01:24:04,550 --> 01:24:14,180 here because you just stop because they have they usually consult more widely strategists. 565 01:24:14,180 --> 01:24:23,870 But Russians are involved in helping the Tajik authorities. 566 01:24:23,870 --> 01:24:36,680 In bringing the other Chinese leaders who are residing in Russia, as it is with us, 567 01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:48,530 like in Georgia because I believe was brought by force, the other because of the leader who was brought by force and all this. 568 01:24:48,530 --> 01:24:58,280 All these campaigns have one single goal just to. 569 01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:19,080 To make silent the voices that the population song has just in order to to make the region totally controlled by the 7th of. 570 01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:30,510 The previous question was regarding the pressure, the international pressure on the harassment of John is. 571 01:25:30,510 --> 01:25:41,130 I would like just to add a couple of words for him because international pressure works when the government, 572 01:25:41,130 --> 01:25:49,650 some countries are allied on something that's so dependent on the international community. 573 01:25:49,650 --> 01:25:56,130 Previously, some maybe 10 years ago, Tajikistan was, yeah, 574 01:25:56,130 --> 01:26:01,440 the international pressure was effective on the government of Tajikistan because they 575 01:26:01,440 --> 01:26:07,770 had some kind of dependence of international financial support international projects. 576 01:26:07,770 --> 01:26:22,620 But later, when they came and played with, they always see when dropped down their range from the bureau to the just office in Tajikistan. 577 01:26:22,620 --> 01:26:28,170 It's understood, understood the government of the least understood that it has. 578 01:26:28,170 --> 01:26:35,430 You've got an immunity against the international pressure and now they use this immunity. 579 01:26:35,430 --> 01:26:42,980 They know that the international community can do nothing. 580 01:26:42,980 --> 01:26:48,230 They cannot interject into the internal affairs of budgets. 581 01:26:48,230 --> 01:26:56,750 And this is the the reason that the international pressure is ineffective right now. 582 01:26:56,750 --> 01:27:05,930 Thank you. Thank you. Ending our discussion today, but I'd like to end with it or not, 583 01:27:05,930 --> 01:27:15,500 the last word to you on these two questions, particularly the second one on one brother, Sean. 584 01:27:15,500 --> 01:27:20,780 Well, the narrative I find is very fine, find it a very difficult question to answer. 585 01:27:20,780 --> 01:27:28,550 And I think the previous two speakers already. Yeah, they they they have more insights into the local situation. 586 01:27:28,550 --> 01:27:37,370 What I know, what I observe is that I mean, even though the I mean, the internet has been blocked at outside of Tajikistan. 587 01:27:37,370 --> 01:27:41,000 There are many people actually will raise attention to the issue. 588 01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:46,340 But Malik is exactly I mean, it's correct to to notice. 589 01:27:46,340 --> 01:27:52,780 The difference is, I mean, if you look at international pressure that was very effective, I mean, in various realms of the economy, right? 590 01:27:52,780 --> 01:27:57,260 Just well, I mean, I've been working on agriculture in particular on that ground reform. 591 01:27:57,260 --> 01:28:04,580 And yeah, in that regard, the situation has changed with regard to pressure. 592 01:28:04,580 --> 01:28:08,520 I think that's it's correct, A. Yeah. Well, thank you. 593 01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:13,430 Thank you very much to you all for participating in this panel. 594 01:28:13,430 --> 01:28:18,680 I think, you know, it's a very grave and concerning situation, obviously. 595 01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:21,500 And yet with some signs of hope, 596 01:28:21,500 --> 01:28:30,890 the citizen journalist the paradox of media control that you're not pointed out and the fact that Badakhshan is both the remaining last remaining, 597 01:28:30,890 --> 01:28:32,930 if you will, autonomous site of resistance. 598 01:28:32,930 --> 01:28:46,670 And yet hopefully, possibly also the first site at which new a new vision of journalism and politics and democracy might emerge, we can only hope. 599 01:28:46,670 --> 01:28:51,770 But with that, with those words. Thank you all again for participating. 600 01:28:51,770 --> 01:28:59,090 Thank you to our audience. And we will see you again on our next. 601 01:28:59,090 --> 01:29:07,220 Hopefully not your planned event on Tajikistan, hosted by the Asian Studies Centre at St. Anthony's College, Oxford. 602 01:29:07,220 --> 01:29:16,850 Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Organising such a wonderful discussion on this topic. 603 01:29:16,850 --> 01:29:20,746 Thank you. Nice to meet you all by.