1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:06,810 The research for this book was sparked by a specific question Why did Pakistan's high courts, 2 00:00:07,050 --> 00:00:15,030 after decades of collaboration with and relative deference to the power of the military, stop asserting and expanding their authority. 3 00:00:15,270 --> 00:00:18,960 Confronting and challenging military and civilian leaders in Pakistan. 4 00:00:20,010 --> 00:00:23,940 Now, when I was in college as an undergraduate, which probably gave me a break, 5 00:00:24,570 --> 00:00:32,129 perhaps the most significant event of my memory at the time were the tumultuous events of 2005 and stuff. 6 00:00:32,130 --> 00:00:37,290 Stop that year, about eight years into the military regime of General Musharraf. 7 00:00:37,890 --> 00:00:47,070 In March, Foxtel's popular chief justice was suspended, and immediately after his suspension, Yahya mobilised around the countries of the streets, 8 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:58,200 shutting down courts, traffic cities and dominated the news cycle as they demanded the restoration of the highly public facing chief justice. 9 00:00:59,030 --> 00:01:05,359 Now the confrontation between the ultimate regime of the time and decreasing and popular and confrontational 10 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:12,680 Chief Justice and Supreme Court grew so dramatic that by November the regime had declared a state of emergency, 11 00:01:12,980 --> 00:01:19,760 a social movement of political parties and civil society, and galvanised around the figure of the chief justice. 12 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:26,930 And eventually the regime itself fell. So in 2007, the march was a politically difficult and consequential event, 13 00:01:26,930 --> 00:01:32,180 that this mobilisation was all happening around the figure of the chief justice and the institution of the courts, 14 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,640 and that would meet its capacity to fight the state. 15 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:43,280 But what made it even more puzzling was it follows that judiciary had previously, historically, repeatedly upheld with multiple military coups, 16 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,510 provided legal coverage of the authority after the preceding military regimes, 17 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:52,160 and collaborated in maintaining military supremacy in Pakistan's system. 18 00:01:53,040 --> 00:02:00,630 So understanding what happened here, how do we understand that change was exactly the puzzle that I wanted to understand in my research at the time. 19 00:02:01,910 --> 00:02:06,680 And since then. And what makes it even more interesting is that since then, Foxwoods courts have not looked back. 20 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:11,990 Instead, the judiciary continues to challenge the beleaguered advocates of the military centres of power, 21 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,080 even removing two elected prime ministers from office, 22 00:02:15,290 --> 00:02:21,950 and thereby furthering the judicial teaching of politics as it pursued a pre-eminent goal in such a system. 23 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:32,420 And the emergence of the judiciary as assertive and active central power has been the most consequential feature of the political system. 24 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:38,840 So what we saw over the last decade is the court challenging military and civilian leaders, 25 00:02:39,140 --> 00:02:47,360 undermining authoritarianism and parliamentary democracy, shaping policy and managing governance in a way the country had never experienced before. 26 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,980 And even this year, headlines in Pakistan have been dominated by daily events. 27 00:02:51,980 --> 00:02:55,670 The courts and the court that have to decide critical political questions and 28 00:02:55,670 --> 00:02:59,570 disputes that are shaping the political and democratic future of Pakistan. 29 00:03:00,850 --> 00:03:05,920 So how do we understand the emergence of this politically ambitious activist and confrontational judiciary? 30 00:03:06,190 --> 00:03:13,060 This is what I seek to understand out of examining the dramatic and consequential transformation in the rule of Pakistan's courts. 31 00:03:13,420 --> 00:03:19,510 I hope this book will also contribute to a growing literature more broadly on the sources of judicial assertiveness, 32 00:03:19,870 --> 00:03:23,859 particularly excluding under what conditions the courts muster, 33 00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:29,150 the willingness to challenge politically powerful military and especially important court competition. 34 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,269 Given the number of authoritarian, 35 00:03:31,270 --> 00:03:38,320 imposed authoritarian states around the world where powerful military still dominate the politics and political trajectory of states. 36 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:47,640 So in that presentation, I will lay out to first my broad theoretical argument before I discuss empirically the process that I observe and argue. 37 00:03:47,650 --> 00:03:53,860 I put it in Pakistan, and then I would just add also that I discussed the broader implications of my findings. 38 00:03:56,170 --> 00:04:01,600 The main argument that I put forward in the book is that the shift institution that's tilted towards 39 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:08,559 the military in Pakistan is best explained by a change in the audiences with which I interact, 40 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,370 both individually and institutionally. What do I mean by that? 41 00:04:12,610 --> 00:04:16,030 Well, thinking through the working of the judiciary as an institution, 42 00:04:16,270 --> 00:04:21,969 I argue that the judiciary converges on a set of institutional preferences in response 43 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:26,710 to the preferences of the institution and networks with which audiences interact. 44 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,620 So when I talk about preferences, what do I mean? 45 00:04:29,950 --> 00:04:36,070 I see that there are two types of institutional preferences, policy preferences and legal preferences. 46 00:04:36,670 --> 00:04:42,580 Policy preferences respond to judges preferences on the question of state action and policy making 47 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:50,290 and legal preferences pertain to the judge's understanding of the court's goal in the legal system, 48 00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:54,190 in the political system, and the ways in which judges approach the sources of law, 49 00:04:54,610 --> 00:04:59,110 thus policy preferences about what kind of policy judges want to see at place. 50 00:04:59,350 --> 00:05:07,000 And legal preferences are about what kind of role the courts must play in the judges. 51 00:05:07,510 --> 00:05:09,520 They must stay in the political system as well. 52 00:05:10,150 --> 00:05:18,910 And so I argue that the dominant factor that could develop within judicial institutions are a product of the interactions with the audiences, 53 00:05:18,910 --> 00:05:22,720 with the judges interact. So what do I mean by audience? 54 00:05:23,350 --> 00:05:28,569 I mean, in the context of an audience developed by the political science law, it's about an audience. 55 00:05:28,570 --> 00:05:36,400 But the crux of this discussion would be political institutions, civilian political organisations, or socially professional groupings. 56 00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:42,430 They're attentive to the decisions that judges make and about which judges have reason to believe reputations. 57 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:47,600 So why do judges care about their reputation? They don't stand for election or anything like that. 58 00:05:47,780 --> 00:05:51,170 What do reputations mean and what is very important for judges? 59 00:05:51,830 --> 00:05:56,180 But I hope that reputation building has both material and not material boxes. 60 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:04,370 But theory judges seek to advance their careers by gaining promotions and increasing benefits, monetary or otherwise, 61 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:11,960 and therefore they would seek to build their reputations with audiences who are in a position to influence the process of appointments, 62 00:06:12,170 --> 00:06:21,510 promotions and rewards for the judiciary. But non battery charges also seem to build our reputation as evil judges to gain the esteem of 63 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:27,329 those so sure that professional networks are closely tied to their own esteem and satisfaction. 64 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:30,750 The job is tied to gaining such respect. Therefore, 65 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,799 it would seek to build their reputation with the groups and networks within which 66 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,420 they have been socialised and which they interact with and identify with regularly, 67 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:40,920 regularly as well. 68 00:06:41,990 --> 00:06:47,750 So the judicial interested reputation building that I'm talking about, whether for career purposes or just to build their own esteem, 69 00:06:48,140 --> 00:06:56,780 creates the opportunity for institutions that act outside the judiciary to shift institutional preferences within the judiciary. 70 00:06:57,230 --> 00:07:08,030 And I describe the concept of institutional inter linkages, which are things that external actors have to the internal processes of the judiciary, 71 00:07:08,330 --> 00:07:15,830 and that connect outside institutions to the internal structures and culture of the courts and make them particular audiences for judgements. 72 00:07:16,430 --> 00:07:22,280 And in the book, I discuss two types of intelligence. The first is what I call utilitarian linkages. 73 00:07:23,290 --> 00:07:31,990 What what I give it is that institutions, organisation or networks have a role in the appointments, promotions, probably the disciplining of judges. 74 00:07:32,230 --> 00:07:34,750 I describe this as a utilitarian linkage. 75 00:07:35,230 --> 00:07:44,379 So, for example, if the military or allied institutions have a role in the appointments, promotions and disciplining of judges, the military, 76 00:07:44,380 --> 00:07:49,720 I would argue that has a utilitarian linkage with the judiciary because it's in a position to influence 77 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:56,260 the careers and the material trajectories and material aspects of a career and appointments and reports, 78 00:07:56,260 --> 00:08:03,010 etc. And this therefore, this utilitarian linkage allows the military to appoint, 79 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:10,090 promote and materially benefit judges who build a reputation for making decisions in line with the preferences of the military. 80 00:08:10,810 --> 00:08:18,040 These preferences could include policy preferences regarding the political agendas of the military and legal 81 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,620 preferences regarding the appropriate role for the judiciary in dealing with the military within that system. 82 00:08:24,710 --> 00:08:28,400 Secondly, the second I talk about what I call WikiLeaks linkages. 83 00:08:29,030 --> 00:08:34,970 So the socialist professional network soldiers that recruited and with which they interact with and seek to build esteem. 84 00:08:35,150 --> 00:08:42,440 I do have normative intelligence as they that the norms with which judges have to comply in order to build a reputation and to 85 00:08:43,130 --> 00:08:50,360 see the superior judiciary of any state is typically recruited from one or a combination of sections of the legal community. 86 00:08:50,810 --> 00:08:57,350 And this that's what's shaped judges perceptions of what are acceptable and unacceptable actions by judges to date. 87 00:08:57,950 --> 00:09:04,279 For example, if judges are recruited or appointed from networks of state bureaucrats that depend 88 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,660 on the executive and executive support and are disconnected from civil society, 89 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:14,180 we may be more inclined to endorse deference to executive institutions at the door. 90 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:19,550 Thus, we must pay attention to social characteristics and legal and policy preferences 91 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,060 of the sections of the legal community from which judges are recruited. 92 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:29,630 Objective to different sections of the legal community that are tied to the military or benefit from military supremacy. 93 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,800 I describe this as the military normative intellect with the judiciary. 94 00:09:34,310 --> 00:09:40,430 I didn't go with the intellect, which is me. The only judges who make decisions in line with the preferences of the military with really 95 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:44,780 gained esteem approved military section of the legal community from which they are recruited. 96 00:09:45,410 --> 00:09:51,110 So the next judges are recruited from the authorities, that judges are recruited and promoted by board. 97 00:09:51,110 --> 00:09:54,500 Seek to ensure that their preferences are reproduced on the bench. 98 00:09:54,920 --> 00:10:00,170 I institutions embedded in these networks or acquisitions of authority over appointments. 99 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,920 And that's the critical organs for the judiciary, 100 00:10:04,460 --> 00:10:13,970 which needs the judges who sincerely share or strategically endorse the audience's preferences when advancing their career and build their esteem. 101 00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:17,210 And as this process repeats itself over time. 102 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:26,270 And more and more judges who express these preferences enter and move upward in the judicial hierarchy and give esteem and credibility as judges. 103 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:30,590 These preferences of those audiences would become normalised within the judicial 104 00:10:30,590 --> 00:10:34,910 system and form what I call the institutional preferences of the judiciary. 105 00:10:35,830 --> 00:10:46,110 So. Now where the military and its allies constitute the dominant audiences, i.e. where they have both normative and utilitarian linkages. 106 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:51,420 Only judges who sincerely share or strategically endorse the preferences and 107 00:10:51,420 --> 00:10:54,960 values of the military will advance their careers and enhance their esteem. 108 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:02,910 Thus, the military is well-positioned to ensure that the legal and policy preferences underlying judicial behaviour align with the military interests. 109 00:11:03,130 --> 00:11:07,410 As a result, we could imagine the greatest loyalty to the military and those of the regime. 110 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,260 What I call in this typology a noted court. 111 00:11:11,010 --> 00:11:18,180 On the other hand, with neither the military nor its affiliates are in primary control of the appointment process, 112 00:11:18,540 --> 00:11:22,590 nor at judges recruited from professional networks closely tied to the military. 113 00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:26,910 The military and the judiciary would enjoy few to no institution linkages, 114 00:11:27,150 --> 00:11:32,250 and thus the military position to shape the preferences of the judiciary are limited at best, 115 00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:37,800 and the court produced by this is unlikely to see itself as necessarily subordinate to the military, 116 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:45,630 nor necessarily subscribe to the military ideological agenda making the likelihood of conflict and confrontation higher. 117 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:51,300 What I call the more confrontational court, because in the book I develop, as you can see here, 118 00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:57,450 a typology of different relationships between the military and the judiciary that would shape the judiciary approach, 119 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:05,520 jurisprudential approach to the military. This typology outlines both how different institutional arrangements shape the variation in judicial. 120 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,460 The second best towards the military, right? Lawyer. 121 00:12:08,590 --> 00:12:15,480 Politician You get a sense of the fashion of the jurisprudence and how judges said preferences regarding the military may change over time. 122 00:12:15,870 --> 00:12:19,890 So as the linkages change, as the auditing of the judiciary change, 123 00:12:20,070 --> 00:12:25,830 you can imagine courts moving from one category this typology to another based on those changes. 124 00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:30,630 And that's when we come to the context of Pakistan. Right. 125 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:40,470 So in Pakistan, I argue that experience a shift in judicial assertiveness from from collaborating with to confronting military power. 126 00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:45,570 I argue that when the audience is seated for career advancement and esteem, 127 00:12:45,570 --> 00:12:51,810 building within the judicial system shifted away from authority to networks that were closely allied with the military. 128 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,660 The Pakistani judiciary shifted from a loyal court to a more ambitious constitutional court 129 00:12:57,930 --> 00:13:02,550 that was more willing to contest the military when their interests and ambitions clashed. 130 00:13:03,550 --> 00:13:09,310 And in the book I trace out the process through which the military and military related elites lost 131 00:13:09,310 --> 00:13:14,050 their important role in shaping the institutional preferences underlying conditions behaviour. 132 00:13:14,950 --> 00:13:23,230 To explain this, I carried out what I call the longest analysis of judicial behaviour towards the military in Pakistan from independence till 2020. 133 00:13:23,950 --> 00:13:31,750 And the book tells you the internal dynamics of the judiciary to shed light on how judges think about and pursue reputation building. 134 00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:35,920 And it connects the logic of reputation building with the adoption and 135 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,740 institutionalisation of preferences with industry and their impact on judicial behaviour. 136 00:13:42,430 --> 00:13:48,309 But the exploration of the micro dynamics with institution institutions and their connection to broader 137 00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:55,360 processes of change in regime structure and a shift in jurisprudence required practising a range of sources. 138 00:13:55,780 --> 00:13:59,319 So this is a brief overview of the research that went into kind of the process 139 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,610 tracing actual action of this of this research and what you find in this book. 140 00:14:04,270 --> 00:14:09,009 The book was based on 18 months of fieldwork in Pakistan, in which I collected quoted, 141 00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:13,180 analysed over 1000 Supreme Court and High Court judgements relevant to this question, 142 00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:18,010 conducted over 130 interviews with lawyers, judges, politicians and journalists. 143 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:25,810 I constructed archive of newspaper articles, bar association of institutions, judges, speeches, and judicial biographies. 144 00:14:26,110 --> 00:14:32,649 And I use this evidence from these streams of data to carefully trace the process by which changes in the institutional 145 00:14:32,650 --> 00:14:39,520 environment of the judiciary and changes in its audiences impacted the transformation institutional preferences, 146 00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:43,270 which then cause variation in judicial subjects to what's the village. 147 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:50,110 So let's go through that process, right? Let's start with what I call that at the outset, the royal Court. 148 00:14:50,650 --> 00:14:53,290 So off the box of independence, in the first 20 years, 149 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:59,950 the Park City Judiciary really picked all the characteristics of the judiciary, the kind of boxes, both military coup. 150 00:15:00,250 --> 00:15:06,430 Soon after it boxes independence. The primary appointing authority of the judiciary was the military that executive. 151 00:15:06,970 --> 00:15:13,600 Right. Therefore, professional success was linked to pleasing the military rulers and the political and bureaucratic allies. 152 00:15:13,930 --> 00:15:20,260 Upward mobility within the superior judiciary in many ways depended upon endorsing a strong military, that executive. 153 00:15:21,070 --> 00:15:24,190 So that was the cornerstone of what we call the utilitarian intellect, 154 00:15:24,190 --> 00:15:31,630 which is that the military had the judiciary sticking it to the normative intellectuals, at least half who the judges came from. 155 00:15:31,810 --> 00:15:35,230 At this time, government services subordinate to the military. 156 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:43,330 Exactly right. Executive branch. And the remainder came from the lawyers community in particular from the beginning to the time I was leading. 157 00:15:43,330 --> 00:15:49,360 Lawyers at the time belonged to Pakistan's post-colonial elite, educated and trained here in the United Kingdom, 158 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,370 usually with strong ties to the bureaucratic and military opposite elite. 159 00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:54,760 The emotion, the same network. 160 00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:02,950 So the military regime actively sought to preserve the privileges of these networks as these boys and girls that were trained 161 00:16:02,950 --> 00:16:09,460 and socialised to reproduce the very British colonial system that institutionalised itself with the executive branch. 162 00:16:09,970 --> 00:16:16,690 So box the each at the time was appointed directly by the military regime and came from bureaucrats and post-colonial. 163 00:16:16,690 --> 00:16:20,590 It needed Lawyers Board Network to check close ties with the military elite. 164 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:22,659 This system, I argue, 165 00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:29,920 ensured that both the key audiences for career advancement and esteem building had a real interest in promoting the military authority, 166 00:16:30,310 --> 00:16:34,930 thus constructing institutions of preferences that private collaboration with 167 00:16:34,930 --> 00:16:38,980 and deference to the military in advancing its political agenda and interest. 168 00:16:39,550 --> 00:16:43,900 I think this system anti-military, judicial activism could hardly be expected, 169 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:49,940 particularly those who desired to be appointed or reported had to have the approval of the military elites. 170 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:56,170 A daughter decides to build a team of judges within the legal and bureaucratic elite how to present that distant 171 00:16:56,190 --> 00:17:02,320 from from mass politics and support for the maintenance of a military dominated system of law and order. 172 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,510 Thus, in this period of military and bureaucratic dominance of the political system, the judiciary, 173 00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:13,450 through its support squarely behind the military regime, while carving out the continuing role and relevance for itself. 174 00:17:14,170 --> 00:17:20,470 Now, obviously, there were moments where the judiciary also challenged the regime here and there at the time, 175 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:29,020 but by not the fact of judicial behaviour, the overwhelming, it was one of collaboration with a deference to the military executive. 176 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,490 But after independence, I discussed three processes that happened over time. 177 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:35,560 The sequence I'm going to discuss. 178 00:17:35,770 --> 00:17:44,110 The first one is what I call the the democratic shift in the judiciary over the next few decades, particularly from the state sovereignty onwards. 179 00:17:44,110 --> 00:17:45,100 In the 1990s, 180 00:17:45,550 --> 00:17:53,200 fewer and fewer judges emerged from Pakistan's post-colonial elites as an increasing number of judges came from low key middle class backgrounds. 181 00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:58,690 The reason that I discussed in the book for this is that as the rewards for private 182 00:17:58,690 --> 00:18:02,650 commercial law increasingly outweighed the rewards for joining the judicial. 183 00:18:03,370 --> 00:18:07,660 A growing proportion of elite lawyers gravitated towards commercial law. 184 00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:12,219 So while the judiciary became more appealing to locally educated, 185 00:18:12,220 --> 00:18:17,490 middle class lawyers seeking the upward mobility and respect promised by members of the judicial elite, 186 00:18:17,980 --> 00:18:23,469 this is the changing nature of the legal profession in Pakistan and the changing rewards and 187 00:18:23,470 --> 00:18:28,030 how between the private and public sector is something I discuss in more detail in the book. 188 00:18:28,540 --> 00:18:36,549 But what this meant was that the composition of the network solely judges were primarily recruited, changed for the point educated and trained elite, 189 00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:42,190 disconnected from Barth's politics and closely aligned with the military elite to a locally educated, 190 00:18:42,190 --> 00:18:46,900 middle class network engaged with politics and less tied to future military rulers. 191 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:54,110 And as you see here, I thought if you know out this study of percentage of Supreme Court judges who are educated abroad. 192 00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:58,210 Over time, you can see the market shift that takes place over this period. 193 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:07,340 And what this ship did was it reduced the military's role in the network from which ideas were recruited and with which I just thought to build 194 00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:15,680 your reputation and thus the democratic ship off the judiciary meant that the judiciary was no longer embedded in that post-colonial elite, 195 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:23,600 but increasingly in Pakistan, middle class. But the next question becomes, if these are the network with judges now, what to build their reputation? 196 00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:26,540 What are the norms and preferences of these networks? 197 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:32,690 And that's the second point that comes to the shift in the preferences of the professional networks of judicial recruitment. 198 00:19:33,050 --> 00:19:37,700 So again, with the way I talk about the politicisation of legal community, 199 00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:43,130 so the noise community in Pakistan from where the judges were being recruited, 200 00:19:43,340 --> 00:19:50,419 became increasingly involved in the 1960s and seventies onwards, with a tumultuous political events reshaping both the political order. 201 00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:56,990 At the time these events ended, the monopoly certain elite groups had over the state politics as best society, 202 00:19:57,260 --> 00:20:00,680 including legal networks, grew increasingly aware and engaged. 203 00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:07,850 And bar associations evolve considerably now to become large associations teeming with noise from less privileged backgrounds. 204 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:13,890 Who is more attuned to the political and socio economic concerns of the middle class communities to which they belong. 205 00:20:14,610 --> 00:20:15,090 However, 206 00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:22,650 the critical juncture that I found in my book for the Fox television community sort of political activity was the dictatorship of General Zia ul Haq. 207 00:20:23,310 --> 00:20:30,090 So what was so interesting about this period when in 1977 General Zia would have declared martial law in Pakistan and he came to power. 208 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,890 And what he did was he immediately banned all political activity, 209 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:39,270 the country banned all political parties and really suppress any venue for political activity. 210 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:48,120 But one of the first places he allowed the resumption of any kind of political activity were professional associations such as bar association. 211 00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:56,550 Right. So suddenly Bar Association became one of the only venues in Pakistan where politics could still be legally practice. 212 00:20:56,580 --> 00:21:01,470 Right. And but what this because this suddenly makes bar association increasingly 213 00:21:01,590 --> 00:21:07,409 politically visible and relevant for politically interested activist lawyers, 214 00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:12,480 etc. Just to give you an example, when I was doing my archival research in 1977, 215 00:21:12,660 --> 00:21:20,670 when I looked at articles about the Fort Hopwood Bar Association election, there would be maybe three sentences in three and a half sentences. 216 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:27,390 By 1980, you had these long profiles in the newspapers of the candidates for these Lawyers Bar Association election. 217 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:33,540 Why? Simply because this was one of the only area of legitimate public political activity in town. 218 00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:40,770 So newspapers were covering it. People were talking about it. And the public profile and presence of the bar substantially increased. 219 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:47,449 Right. So what it did was that this attracted political workers and party members to the bars and the bar. 220 00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:51,540 And that became a site for politically ambitious lawyers to start using as a 221 00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:55,950 platform to build a politics around opposing and challenging the military regime. 222 00:21:56,490 --> 00:22:00,360 Political The active voice started running for elections in the Baath, 223 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:07,600 winning these elections and turning the bars into a platform for challenging and mobilising against the military regime. 224 00:22:07,620 --> 00:22:11,579 At the time, I did in this period, an increasing norm. 225 00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:16,250 Developments regarding the Baath Party to assert the independence of the military. 226 00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:18,720 And I challenged the military as well. 227 00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:27,300 And in the absence of these political venues and a norm of anti militarism and political activism was increasingly entrenched in the bar. 228 00:22:28,110 --> 00:22:34,560 Now, with the end of military rule in 1980 1980s and the coming of Democratic and Democratic through the 1990s, 229 00:22:34,830 --> 00:22:39,479 this political activism was translated into a broader agenda of socio economic and 230 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,550 political reform that the lawyers believed was to be realised that they needed to realise. 231 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:53,700 And indeed, consensus seemed to establish itself within the bar, and the focus of this activities was often a moving target shifting between generals, 232 00:22:54,030 --> 00:23:01,320 bureaucrats or politicians who the parties loyal supporters corrupted, incompetent and incapable of shaping the political direction of the state. 233 00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:06,670 It's really interesting when you study or read the Bar Association resolution of the 1990s. 234 00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:13,150 You have bars of talk in all matters of affairs, whether it has to do with foreign policy, local policy. 235 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:18,520 I think that could Sindhi could be wrote a letter or the report wrote a letter to the 236 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,390 United Nations Security Council demanding a different solution to the Iraq crisis. 237 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,640 So it's really good that they thought that they could do that. But that shows you the kind of political efficacy they believe that they have. 238 00:23:27,730 --> 00:23:38,530 Right. On another note, you had one of the leaders of the Bar Association in Baluchistan of the political stunt jump into a cage at the zoo of cage, 239 00:23:38,530 --> 00:23:41,530 of lions in the zoo to protest political corruption. 240 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:48,340 Right. Do you really have any ambitious lawyers really wanted to make their impact on the politics of the Thai political 241 00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:53,650 system and then by both the military and the politicians were ill equipped to really deal with these challenges. 242 00:23:53,920 --> 00:24:01,299 And instead, what they wanted to see was their institution, which was the judiciary, really step up and become an activist, 243 00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:05,670 interventionist institution and to set the country on the path that being what it should be. 244 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,400 All right. 245 00:24:06,670 --> 00:24:14,440 And so by the 1990, this consensus of political and judicial activism was entrenched through the Bar Association in the major of its sentence. 246 00:24:15,290 --> 00:24:21,050 So that's it. Now the norms in the networks to which judges are recruited and which they're seeking to build their reputations. 247 00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:29,360 The third point that I make is, and you can see here this quote from one of the leading volunteers at the time. 248 00:24:29,630 --> 00:24:34,010 He wants the courts to take action in the event pertaining to political corruption 249 00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:38,899 to see if the system do you know this deep beneath this political culture, 250 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:46,310 which I think was corrupt and the court need to challenge this, but it's going to hold them accountable and transform the political system. 251 00:24:46,490 --> 00:24:51,350 This is really way to see the political agenda of these lawyers. Theodore is heading that. 252 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:57,190 Now. So now I didn't you to the charity clinic right now. 253 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,910 The third part of the story is the separation of the judiciary from the executive. 254 00:25:01,390 --> 00:25:08,380 The Constitution of 1973 in Pakistan, it established the principle that the judiciary and the executive have to be separate. 255 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,790 Right. And then in 1996, an important Supreme Court decision, 256 00:25:13,060 --> 00:25:18,580 the Supreme Court significantly reduced the executive branch's discretion in appointments and 257 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:24,850 by giving the chief justices privacy and the primacy in judicial appointments at the time. 258 00:25:25,330 --> 00:25:32,920 And in 2000, it did the court further reduced executive control with the establishment of the Judicial Commission to manage executive appointments. 259 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:42,040 What is that now? Within the past, the judicial selection in Pakistan did not necessarily require establishing a reputation with the executive branch. 260 00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:48,240 And it does diminish the role of executive institutions in career advancement. 261 00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:54,660 Secondly, what this meant was that I had the voice and role of the executive branch diminished in the course of appointments, 262 00:25:54,870 --> 00:26:02,370 while the role of the Chief Justice's comedy roles. For me the goal of the bar increase in appointments as well. 263 00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:10,200 These judges, the chief justice, is controlling the appointment process now when lawyers always themselves are being increasingly consulted with 264 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,510 and relied on the advice of their fellow lawyers from their respective go folks advice in making appointments. 265 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:21,090 Thus alongside reputation with Chief Justice's reputation within the noise community become an 266 00:26:21,090 --> 00:26:25,470 increasingly important consideration in the process of judicial appointments and promotions. 267 00:26:27,150 --> 00:26:33,390 As you can see, this Court, from what one judge was telling me, the reputation of the bar is very important. 268 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,260 You cannot hide your activities in the bar. 269 00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:41,900 Problems can be created for unwanted judicial appointments. Whisper campaigns. 270 00:26:41,910 --> 00:26:43,350 I've seen this happen at the shop. 271 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:51,540 He was talking about how important and how consequential in forming your reputation within the bar was to your future and your credibility as a judge. 272 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:59,010 Not just your popularity, not just your standing and your reputation within the bar because of your career as well. 273 00:26:59,610 --> 00:27:05,310 What this meant was that by the late 1990, the institution environment of the judiciary had to be completely rearranged. 274 00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:11,190 And he ordered this, and judicial preferences had been largely altered as a consequence of these processes. 275 00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:15,210 In particular, the and as I summarised here, 276 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:23,700 the set of these are the three processes I'm talking about of the military as the primary executive institution and affiliated elites, 277 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:30,030 but of pre-eminence in the judicial appointments system while the judges advantages become consequential audiences. 278 00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:36,720 And secondly, judicial recruitment shifted from a section of the legal complex community that was more aligned to the military, 279 00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:40,800 to one that did more independent from issues opposition to the bench. 280 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,640 Thus, a new consensus emerged within the judiciary at the time for greater activism, 281 00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:54,670 greater political ambition and greater participation of military and civilian centres of power to which I will come to not. 282 00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:02,760 This is broadly the process that I traced out in the book. I think it's made it necessary, but is largely what I was just talking about. 283 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:12,200 And I can discuss it, by the way. So, yes, so this brings us to the period in which we call the period of the confrontational court. 284 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:20,249 Right. Of what happened was that what was happening now without added the sea changes that happened and increasingly going is pushing for 285 00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:26,820 judges to demonstrate their independence from other studies and to intervene in the policy of politics of other state institutions. 286 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:33,809 And as the judiciary grew more visible in resolving disputes between state institutions and also the growth of public interest, 287 00:28:33,810 --> 00:28:39,720 litigation in Pakistan reduced the procedural and jurisdiction restrictions on judicial interventions, 288 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,080 lawyers, exports to expand their role in governance. 289 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,700 And we saw a growing number of petitions in the late 1990 from lawyers demanding 290 00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:51,540 a more interventionist role by courts and party that making such claims. 291 00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:55,290 And we saw judges receptive to and supportive of such an approach as well. 292 00:28:55,950 --> 00:29:02,480 And the impact became very clear in the sort of activist, interventionist approach that emerged in the 2000. 293 00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:10,070 What I should add, added this is to that by choice the only institution related issues with the judiciary were first the military and then the bar. 294 00:29:10,290 --> 00:29:15,210 Political parties also sought to establish close linkages with the judiciary at different times. 295 00:29:15,540 --> 00:29:20,579 But the story of the key tradition that I think best explains the changing approach of the judiciary 296 00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:25,410 at the time is the diminishing role of the military and increasing rule of the bar as well. 297 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,760 But I'm happy to talk about the political parties facing all this in the Q&A as well. 298 00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:34,930 But yes, talking about the Constitution, Constitutional Court, as I call it, 299 00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:42,430 becomes most evident during the tenure of Chief Justice IFTIKHAR Chaudhry in 2005 and the Chief Justice Chaudhry Fox, 300 00:29:42,430 --> 00:29:46,390 who saw an explosive growth in what is called public interest education. 301 00:29:47,050 --> 00:29:51,550 Chaudhry Justice Chaudhry set up reactivating the human rights set of the court, 302 00:29:51,730 --> 00:29:58,180 which received numerous petitions about human rights violations and converted these into formal petitions for the court to hear. 303 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,930 The court also took up an increasing number of cases suo motu. 304 00:30:03,470 --> 00:30:07,310 That's my goodness. Law, 2 minutes away. If it did that, 305 00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:14,900 it did tell me that an issue was one of significant public importance and raise the question of the enforcement of fundamental rights that 306 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:22,700 the court reduced procedural and jurisdiction restrictions to take notice of a broad important number of the bits of and add to the court. 307 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:26,690 And that's I think you have to support it, which means even in the absence of a petitioner, 308 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,890 if the court, for example, saw a story in the media or a judge, so to read the media, 309 00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:36,049 the data concerning they take it out, start hearing in the court and make a case out of this, 310 00:30:36,050 --> 00:30:39,160 created a feedback loop between the media and the judiciary, right? 311 00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:43,730 So as the court take, the media would discuss the issue. 312 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:48,320 Court would take it up, the media would cover the courts taking up those issues. 313 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:56,960 And it made the job increasingly more public. And the fifth biggest opposed the litigation was was restricted to more small scale issues. 314 00:30:57,260 --> 00:31:01,130 But clearly that changed the court to more ambition. Here are two examples. 315 00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:04,610 The Court You look at separation and advance governance. 316 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,640 So first the I talk about the privatisation of toxins. 317 00:31:09,020 --> 00:31:18,080 What the most famous case in this got with box of privatisation of a lot of state owned steel mills, which was challenged in the courts at the time. 318 00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:26,010 Right now, the petition before the court claimed that the steel mills assets was sold for a price lower than the value. 319 00:31:26,030 --> 00:31:28,670 I asked the court to review the privatisation process, 320 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,949 but the proceedings of the case to the Court overturned the entire privatisation of those massive 321 00:31:33,950 --> 00:31:40,820 steel mills for significantly impacting the military regime of the time of economic plans. 322 00:31:41,030 --> 00:31:45,140 But the proceedings of the case also shed light on the consulted priorities of the judges. 323 00:31:45,670 --> 00:31:50,360 So justice for observed in the judgement that although the Court has not permitted policies, 324 00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:56,990 it had a mandate to adjudicate as to whether the privatisation policies were in the national interest. 325 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,300 The Court was therefore placing itself in a position to ascertain what was in the national interest or not. 326 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:09,470 The other judge Justice put the voice the court's policy preferences seeking that he was simply opposed to privatisation 327 00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:16,400 because entities having of strategic importance cannot be sold to foreign investors who are just opposed to privatisation. 328 00:32:16,550 --> 00:32:18,350 So he was going to overturn it on that record. 329 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:25,670 So what you really see is what becomes the is how these quotes get comfortable weighing in into being a major question of policy, 330 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:32,540 articulating their preferences regarding policy, and claiming authority to determine what was and what is not in the national interest. 331 00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:39,970 I spoke about another case where the other case with the judicial system of the important sacred with 332 00:32:40,780 --> 00:32:46,900 the court states that the judiciary was obliged to act as the administrator of the public will. 333 00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:56,200 Right. So you really have this emergence in the court, this idea that it was best position to it's only the public will decide the public interest 334 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,180 and show you that impact policy and governance and government in Pakistan based on this. 335 00:33:01,390 --> 00:33:06,370 Right now the power during this time during which you had grown more worried 336 00:33:06,370 --> 00:33:10,269 about judicial appointments and the conduct of judges and bar associations, 337 00:33:10,270 --> 00:33:15,249 condemned judges who collaborated with the judges and even released a white paper on the judiciary which 338 00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:21,220 caused a name and shame judges who had bad reputations and discussed corruption amongst these judges as well. 339 00:33:21,730 --> 00:33:24,980 I was leading noise coming from the bar like Justice Jose. 340 00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:32,710 What conscious about the reputation within these groups? Leading lawyers who had made these judges that would help these judges get appointed. 341 00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:37,660 Now, the judges indicated that I expected them to make decisions in light of the preferences. 342 00:33:38,380 --> 00:33:45,580 Judges who also more concerned about, as became increasingly public figures about how their reputations were projected to the public. 343 00:33:45,790 --> 00:33:52,359 And very often it was lawyers coming on TV channels talking about their judgements and shaping those reputations in the public. 344 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,170 As one judge told me, the bar was the loudspeaker of the judges. 345 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:04,270 And the third reason lawyers really cared about their reputation also at this time was the mobilisation potential of the lawyers. 346 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:10,000 So in 2007, when General Justice Chaudhry was suspended by General Musharraf, 347 00:34:10,180 --> 00:34:14,860 noise around the country actively mobilised and supported the judges who decided to defy the regime. 348 00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:22,170 The events of the lawyers which showed the body that had the capacity to mobilise the bar and this mobilisation potentially on full display. 349 00:34:22,510 --> 00:34:28,630 But there were thousands of lawyers in ballrooms around the country with few cases and few opportunities and very little to do. 350 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,090 And there were always ready made footsoldiers for bodyguards to call out on the streets day after day, 351 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,870 protesting and challenging the regime, challenging the regime at the time. 352 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,030 And that really that mobilisation could be especially consequential at that point. 353 00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:48,280 And even after the events of 2078, this dynamic is beginning to cease. 354 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:54,700 All the lawyers, movement lawyers continue to rely on the mobilisation potential to pressure and control the judges and 355 00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:59,250 frequently resorted to it and aggressive tactics against judges and other rival groups of lawyers, 356 00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:06,310 especially thus we see the bars willingness and ability to pressure judges has grown significantly. 357 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:13,540 Judges who pursued the agenda of the bar were actively supported by the bar, and judges who felt out of line became the targets. 358 00:35:13,810 --> 00:35:22,150 And this these three key aspects come together to form the Iraqi court competition court, a judiciary that was unwilling to accept the community, 359 00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:23,950 collaborated in appalling and I think, 360 00:35:23,950 --> 00:35:31,420 institution supremacy and was focus on establishing its own role as an independent power centre and should be the policy politics of the state. 361 00:35:32,490 --> 00:35:38,460 But importantly, though, why this explains the emergence of a more ambitious, assertive and competition judiciary. 362 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:41,400 This is not me. The judiciary became more democratic. 363 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,670 Yes, it challenged military institutions, but it also sought to confront and constrain civilian institutions as well. 364 00:35:49,050 --> 00:35:54,900 And I also show how, in the decades since the military regime in 2008, 2018, 365 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,880 the institution very institution property that motivated the court to confront the military, 366 00:36:00,150 --> 00:36:07,020 also drove it to challenge it either by force authoritarian elected governments with mixed consequences for the democratic future. 367 00:36:07,710 --> 00:36:15,480 50,000 dead. The courts increasingly intervene at every mark of governance and in doing so frequently overturn decisions made by political branches, 368 00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:18,299 undermine the report, overrule the policies, 369 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:23,580 and justify these actions based on critiques of the corruption and incompetence of the political branches. 370 00:36:24,150 --> 00:36:29,500 There's no doubt that the longstanding practices of corruption and maladministration needed to be come back. 371 00:36:30,030 --> 00:36:35,099 However, the way the court went about these interventions frequently meant the judiciary was supplanting the 372 00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:40,260 authority of the other branches of government and limiting and de-legitimize the electoral supremacy. 373 00:36:40,740 --> 00:36:43,290 Perhaps this verdict by the court against. At that time, 374 00:36:44,010 --> 00:36:52,110 the Prime Minister that ousted the varsity really exemplifies the way the courts were thinking about their rule at the time with the judiciary by 375 00:36:52,230 --> 00:37:00,389 the decision where the ousted nwaoboshi from power and indeed placed a nightgown on him standing as premier on the breaches of civil charges. 376 00:37:00,390 --> 00:37:07,650 Right. This by the court could now put individuals from political office and political life on the beat without even a criminal conviction. 377 00:37:07,890 --> 00:37:13,680 Right. And the court justified doing that by making the statement that the court had the power to, quote unquote, 378 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,920 cleanse the fountainhead of the authority of the state so that the trickle down authority may also become unpolluted. 379 00:37:20,190 --> 00:37:25,500 That's the court decree. So itself has having the vision to purify the state of politics of Pakistan. 380 00:37:26,490 --> 00:37:34,080 And so this opposition to both military and political party dominance shaped the judge's repeated interventions into the regime structure, 381 00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:38,490 electoral processes and policy making up the state of the political system. 382 00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:44,850 As one politician debated, what can we do when all these judges all think they are beside us now? 383 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:53,580 All come to save the people? And thus, I guess, a constitutional court, I argue, is not necessarily a pro-democracy court, 384 00:37:53,730 --> 00:37:59,160 because these very decisions weaken electoral institutions and eventually help engineer the political landscape in 385 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:08,520 Pakistan to make to permit the military to return to a prominent political role in boxes politics after 2000 of instead, 386 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:15,120 the aspiration for pre-eminent role managing state institutions and governance can both undermine both the authority regimes, 387 00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:24,030 but also weaken and paralyse elected civilian governments so that you can sort of a in the book, 388 00:38:24,030 --> 00:38:31,830 I would argue the change in judicial organs is crucial for expanding the judiciary, collaborating with the people, fighting military governance. 389 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:37,950 But this is not to dismiss the relevance of other factors that contributed as well, including the political structure of the state, 390 00:38:37,950 --> 00:38:41,790 the waxing and waning of military power, or alternatively, 391 00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:46,170 individual chief justice is a dead belief that action all of these is bad in a different time. 392 00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:50,819 But I believe this story of shifting judicial power ambition can only best be 393 00:38:50,820 --> 00:38:55,320 told if we understand the role of audiences in shaping the judicial trajectory. 394 00:38:55,590 --> 00:38:58,829 And I believe this project provided some lessons for the study of judicial politics. 395 00:38:58,830 --> 00:38:59,700 More broadly, 396 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:07,380 it reveals how politically powerful militaries shape the willingness and ability of the judiciary to assert civilian control over the military. 397 00:39:07,770 --> 00:39:11,760 It highlights the role of the legal community in shaping judicial behaviour, 398 00:39:12,090 --> 00:39:16,200 and it shows that judges are motivated by both material and opportunities, goals. 399 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:23,550 And finally, this book contributes to this dialogue about new judicial conception and the judicial ization of politics. 400 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:30,030 By explaining how fast the judiciary shifted from the commitment to upholding the procedural requirements of a colonial 401 00:39:30,030 --> 00:39:36,910 era legal framework designed to uphold the executive power to the commitment to champion its own judicial rights. 402 00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:40,300 Conception of the public interest. Thank you. I keep it that.