1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:06,060 And welcome to the second annual Don Deflection Colloquium, 2 00:00:06,690 --> 00:00:15,180 which commemorates Ralph Don of the third warden of this college, or the great liberal European thinker. 3 00:00:15,780 --> 00:00:22,409 We're delighted to have members of the Dando family here and also very pleased to 4 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:28,320 welcome Professor Michael during the president of the Site Foundation in Hamburg, 5 00:00:29,370 --> 00:00:37,020 a foundation with which Ralph Dondo was closely associated and which has generously supported this colloquium. 6 00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:42,700 Rose standoff was not a religious person. 7 00:00:45,370 --> 00:00:53,980 He was quite unusually brought up in an entirely secular way by pre-war German social Democrats. 8 00:00:54,340 --> 00:01:02,469 And I think it's fair to say he hardly had a religious nerve in his body, but he was very interested in religion as a social force. 9 00:01:02,470 --> 00:01:03,520 And above all. 10 00:01:04,730 --> 00:01:18,320 Central to his concerns with the theme of diversity difference and conflict conflict which he regarded not as something to be resolved or stopped, 11 00:01:18,830 --> 00:01:25,310 but as an essential feature of a free society and an essential source of human creativity. 12 00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:38,270 Jobs and the job was not to stop it, but to civilise it, to harness it as a force for civilisation. 13 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:49,879 And of course, in our time, religious differences are among the main sources, or at least occasions for conflict, 14 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:59,720 not least around free speech, which is one of the major subjects of research in our Don Dorf program for the Study of Freedom. 15 00:02:00,290 --> 00:02:05,270 Hence our topic today. Is nothing sacred. 16 00:02:06,140 --> 00:02:16,980 Religion and free speech. And I've asked speakers, at least initially, to concentrate on two main areas. 17 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:29,640 Firstly, the question of what the law or the policies of a state should do about the question of religion and free speech. 18 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:36,260 Should we not be free by law to say anything about religion? 19 00:02:37,340 --> 00:02:41,000 Or should we not be free by law to say anything about the religious? 20 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:48,110 That is to say, the believers, rather than the belief. Is that distinction, in fact, at all sustainable? 21 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:54,030 There are, in fact, across the world a huge. 22 00:02:55,060 --> 00:02:58,600 Range of laws of this kind. 23 00:02:59,110 --> 00:03:09,910 We ourselves in Britain have on the statute book a law on incitement to religious hatred, fortunately an effectively emasculated and neutered law, 24 00:03:10,540 --> 00:03:14,710 but nonetheless on the statute book and this ranges and all the way to Pakistan 25 00:03:15,310 --> 00:03:22,240 where to make derogatory remarks about the Prophet Mohammed is punishable by law, 26 00:03:23,140 --> 00:03:30,000 by death. But this is only half the story because the most effective. 27 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:42,230 A constrained limit on free speech about religion in our own countries and so-called free societies at the moment is nothing in the law. 28 00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:47,149 It is strictly illegal. Violent intimidation. 29 00:03:47,150 --> 00:03:51,560 It is people saying, if you say that we will kill you. 30 00:03:52,220 --> 00:04:01,550 And then sometimes they do. As you know, the governor of Punjab and the minister for minorities have been assassinated in Pakistan only this year. 31 00:04:01,850 --> 00:04:08,110 They often go in the Netherlands. Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali living under death threats. 32 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,020 But it's not only atheists and freethinkers. 33 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,280 Many Muslims also live under death threats. 34 00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:19,220 One of our speakers today, Dr. Osama Hasan, 35 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:29,390 has himself received death threats quite recently for arguing that the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam. 36 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:35,990 And it's not just Muslims. The intimidation of the play about the Sikhs based. 37 00:04:37,130 --> 00:04:48,920 M.F. Hussain, probably the most famous Indian painter who died just a few days ago, died in exile because of intimidation by Hindu nationalists. 38 00:04:49,670 --> 00:04:56,149 Mark Thompson of the BBC, who's with us here today, could tell a tale of perhaps not quite so extreme, 39 00:04:56,150 --> 00:05:02,270 but nonetheless quite nasty threats relating to the BBC broadcasting. 40 00:05:02,810 --> 00:05:05,150 Jerry Springer. The Opera. 41 00:05:06,910 --> 00:05:16,510 The problem is, of course, if we ask the question, what can the law or the state do effectively to stop such violent intimidation, 42 00:05:17,530 --> 00:05:26,400 then very soon you get to the point where those laws themselves like that on the glorification of terrorism are becoming a limit, 43 00:05:26,410 --> 00:05:29,800 a restriction of free speech. So that's the first area. 44 00:05:30,340 --> 00:05:34,390 The second area is, I think, at least as important. 45 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:41,360 So much of the free speech literature is about what the law should or should not allow. 46 00:05:42,170 --> 00:05:51,820 But actually there's a vast area. Of social and cultural and educational norms. 47 00:05:52,060 --> 00:05:58,390 Editorial standards. The right to offend does not imply a duty to offend. 48 00:05:58,990 --> 00:06:07,480 And it seems to me at least as important to examine those sort of judgements which we make voluntary in a university like this. 49 00:06:07,660 --> 00:06:15,070 I hope Charles can talk, for example, about the choices he had to make as editor of national newspapers. 50 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:22,320 What is a social practice? Of a neutral or secular public sphere. 51 00:06:22,350 --> 00:06:23,550 What does it mean in reality? 52 00:06:23,970 --> 00:06:34,200 Is there not perhaps some special respect that we might want to give voluntarily to religious beliefs not imposed by law, 53 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,130 if only because these are the beliefs people hold most sacred? 54 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:52,480 Or is it rather the case that the claims of religion should be treated exactly the same as the claims of mathematics or sociology or history? 55 00:06:53,380 --> 00:07:05,500 Why should the claim for the virgin birth of Jesus Christ be treated any differently from the claim that two plus two equals five? 56 00:07:07,510 --> 00:07:11,230 These are some of the questions that I hope other speakers will address. 57 00:07:11,260 --> 00:07:17,170 We have a supremely well-qualified panel. Our first speaker is a philosopher and atheist. 58 00:07:17,740 --> 00:07:23,640 Our second speaker, a scientist and Muslim. Third speaker, a journalist and Christian. 59 00:07:24,370 --> 00:07:31,420 I leave it to them to describe how they see the relations between these two sides of their beings. 60 00:07:32,890 --> 00:07:41,320 If anybody had not heard of Anthony Grayling at the beginning of this week, they certainly have now because he's been all over the papers. 61 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:48,399 You may have noticed a little noise outside the front gate as the founder of the New College of the Humanities, 62 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,030 not to be confused with New College Oxford. 63 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,810 This is a very interesting subject for debate, but I should stress it's not our subject this evening. 64 00:07:59,050 --> 00:08:06,610 Anthony is here as a philosopher and public intellectual. He has published extensively on philosophical themes. 65 00:08:06,940 --> 00:08:14,860 He was until recently, professor of philosophy at Birkbeck, and he is the president elect of the British Humanist Association. 66 00:08:15,310 --> 00:08:21,520 And his most recent publication is The Good Book A Humanist Bible. 67 00:08:22,310 --> 00:08:29,410 Dr. Osama, whose son is a scientist, he studied physics and artificial intelligence at Cambridge and London universities. 68 00:08:29,770 --> 00:08:34,120 He is senior lecturer at Middlesex University, a fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society, 69 00:08:34,570 --> 00:08:43,210 but he is also a trained Islamic scholar and imam who actually comes out of the Salafi tradition, 70 00:08:43,660 --> 00:08:47,049 which as many of you will know, has been the source of, 71 00:08:47,050 --> 00:08:54,010 or at least from which has come many fundamentalist and extremist tendencies which he knew about in his youth. 72 00:08:54,010 --> 00:09:06,460 But more recently, he has become a very brave and clear critic of extremism, pleading for an Islamic version of the secular public sphere. 73 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,010 And as I said, by arguing that the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam. 74 00:09:12,790 --> 00:09:22,960 He has earned himself. I think that's the right phrase death threat and is in fact unable to preach in his own mosque as a result. 75 00:09:23,770 --> 00:09:28,750 Charles Moore is one of our most distinguished conservative journalists and commentators. 76 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:36,220 He's been an editor for nearly 20 years of the Spectator of the Sunday Telegraph of the Daily Telegraph. 77 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:39,430 He's the official biographer of Margaret Thatcher. 78 00:09:39,940 --> 00:09:50,950 He's also a convert from the Church of England to Catholicism and has written often and very thoughtfully about religion in public life, 79 00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:56,410 about the kinds of issues we're talking about today, not least in relation to Islam. 80 00:09:57,340 --> 00:10:05,230 Each of our speakers will speak for just 15 minutes and then we'll have some time for discussion. 81 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:09,860 So please join me in welcoming our panel. You're listening to Talk. 82 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:19,890 And well whenever there is a philosophical aspect to an occasion and are very much so is one of this occasion, 83 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:22,709 it does no harm to brandish the name Wittgenstein. 84 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:29,250 And I thought I'd do it early and get it over with because Dickinson said it's always worthwhile assembling some 85 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:36,360 reminders in order to clarify matters and to remind us that we need to assemble for this discussion on these. 86 00:10:36,810 --> 00:10:43,139 At first, it's worthwhile using the expression freedom of expression rather than just freedom of speech, 87 00:10:43,140 --> 00:10:49,530 because we do want to include other forms of expression, then speaking and writing and indeed one. 88 00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:58,260 One of the people mentioned by Timothy in his exhort him was a very substantial, considerable artist who recently died in exile, 89 00:10:58,260 --> 00:11:03,420 as Timothy says, precisely because he wasn't allowed to express himself in his own culture. 90 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:10,410 And the second thing that we do well to remember is just why it is that freedom of expression is so vital. 91 00:11:10,740 --> 00:11:17,550 It's not a mere piety. It's not possible to have others of our civil liberties unless we have freedom of expression. 92 00:11:18,060 --> 00:11:24,960 We cannot have a democratic order unless people can advance ideas and policies and compete for the attention of the electorate for them. 93 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:31,810 We can't have a proper educational system unless people can put forward ideas and make a case for them and contest and criticise them. 94 00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:38,159 We can't defend or assert our liberties unless we are able to explain to people that 95 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:43,440 we feel they're under threat or lay claim to them or go to law to defend them. 96 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:50,160 And we can't indeed have a proper due process of law unless things can be aired and discussed and tested properly. 97 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:55,450 So freedom of expression lies at the very heart of the indivisibility of our civil liberties. 98 00:11:55,470 --> 00:12:01,320 It's a very crucial one and the great importance of it to the well-being of a policy, 99 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:07,230 the well-being of the society in order to different aspects, can't be sufficiently often enough stressed. 100 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:16,950 Having said that, we have to distinguish two constraints that very often are invoked when we think about the reach 101 00:12:17,220 --> 00:12:23,550 that freedom of expression has across the range of our social and political and educational lives. 102 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:30,120 And these two constraints are sometimes thought of in terms of pragmatic considerations and of practical ones. 103 00:12:30,390 --> 00:12:37,350 There's an important distinction between pragmatic and practical considerations in the following way pragmatic considerations of invoke. 104 00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:41,010 When people think that it would just make things work a little bit better. 105 00:12:41,020 --> 00:12:45,570 Maybe life would be easier if we were to compromise a little bit. 106 00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:54,660 If, when we write our newspaper articles, we decided not to provoke too much hostility or criticism. 107 00:12:55,470 --> 00:13:01,230 But the practical considerations are the ones that I think Timothy had in mind when he talked about the fact 108 00:13:01,230 --> 00:13:08,580 that having a right to free expression doesn't entail that one should exercise that right at every opportunity. 109 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,260 I mean, famously there is the cliche which, like most cliches, has to match being true, 110 00:13:13,530 --> 00:13:19,290 that it is to do a wrong, to shout fire in a crowded cinema when there isn't a fire. 111 00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:28,380 And so we understand that there are practical considerations that have to be borne in mind in the exercise of the right to freedom of expression, 112 00:13:28,380 --> 00:13:30,270 as in the exercise of any of our rights. 113 00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:37,170 And I think the debate that we have in our contemporary society about the place of religious voices in the public square and of the 114 00:13:37,170 --> 00:13:45,480 effect of religious influence in our educational system that is very much on this practical rather than on this pragmatic measure, 115 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,890 not for itself, a practical reason, but for a reason principle, namely, 116 00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:56,159 that we should not seek the pragmatic option of saying, Look, let us keep the peace. 117 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:06,570 That's just not rock the boat. That's temper what we really think or feel about things and what we're going to say about things just in order that we, 118 00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:09,240 we, none of us get into trouble or have any ructions. 119 00:14:09,810 --> 00:14:16,770 Because if you did that, it would ultimately prove corrosive, ultimately systematic self-censorship. 120 00:14:16,890 --> 00:14:23,460 Ultimately, the a yielding to a temptation not to accept that there is a cost and a burden 121 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,750 to having a very important right like free speech is corrosive in our society. 122 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:36,600 But what one can do is that one can be practical about it, as one is when one strains oneself from shouting fire in a crowded cinema. 123 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,450 One recognises that there are in given circumstances and for specified reasons, 124 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,410 that there is a logic in those circumstances and for those reasons to not doing something, 125 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:53,760 to exercising a certain kind of restraint or just falling back on common courtesy. 126 00:14:54,390 --> 00:15:00,810 It doesn't mean that one is one does temporise one's commitment to freedom of expression, not to shout fire in a crowded cinema. 127 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,450 It means that one recognises that there are other birds and other homes that are at stake, 128 00:15:07,020 --> 00:15:11,970 and one might want to respect those in those circumstances and for those specified reasons. 129 00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:20,840 Just providing that one doesn't make it a principle that one does it always, which is what being pragmatic about it results in. 130 00:15:21,980 --> 00:15:32,120 So this idea of of exercising what an Aristotelian might call the judgement about the right course of 131 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:38,629 action in a given situation is the one that if people are thoughtful and if people are responsible, 132 00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:44,480 and I think ethical responsibility has become that aspect of our action in the society, 133 00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:51,230 which most importantly I think helps to govern relationships with other people in that society. 134 00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:58,700 If we think about what the responsible thing to do is in a given situation, even with the exercise of fundamental rights, 135 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:07,700 that's freedom of expression, one is able, while maintaining the principle, holding to the principle, nevertheless using it responsibly. 136 00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:20,960 And the particular application of this to the question of religion in the public sphere is in a secular society, 137 00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:26,420 in a mature, liberal democratic order, 138 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:38,720 one must be committed to the thought that every point of view, providing it is not a point of view that does incite to violence or to harm that. 139 00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:48,110 Every point of view has to be judged on its merits as to whether or not it should be subject to some kind of social control. 140 00:16:48,950 --> 00:16:52,970 And that's the default position, is that very few such points of view should be. 141 00:16:53,660 --> 00:16:59,660 But there are some importantly, I think, that in connection with a person's disability, 142 00:16:59,660 --> 00:17:04,250 if he or she has one in connection with the gender of a person, 143 00:17:04,550 --> 00:17:10,760 the connection age of a person, connection with the ethnicity and the sexuality of a person, 144 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:16,340 all things that people don't choose don't choose your age or ethnicity or sexuality. 145 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,900 With respect to these things, you should be protected from all forms of discrimination, 146 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:30,139 including the discrimination that arises from hate speech and from criticism and attack. 147 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:36,620 On the basis of that unchanging feature there there can be laws, seems to be quite clear, 148 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:43,280 but it must be possible to respect the possibility of freedom for the individual who 149 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,420 might otherwise be attacked by protecting them from unbridled freedom of expression. 150 00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:54,920 And those cases seem to be justified. But with respect to things that you can choose, even if it might be hard to choose some of them, 151 00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:59,569 maybe because you were brought up in a particular religious faith or in a particular political tradition, 152 00:17:59,570 --> 00:18:04,520 it might be very hard to break ranks with the people you've you've belonged to all your life. 153 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,200 Nevertheless, in principle, you can you can leave a religion, you can leave a political movement. 154 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:11,269 You can give up a certain kind of fashion. 155 00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:18,350 You can change your has to there there are various things that you might not wish to do, might find it very hard to do, but in principle can do. 156 00:18:18,590 --> 00:18:27,500 And these things ultimately, therefore, of choice. And with respect to those things, why should there be a law that protects you from criticism, 157 00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:32,030 even if the criticism, the ridicule, the commentary is offensive? 158 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,529 Here we are not properly at all in the realm of law here. 159 00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:48,540 There is no demand, I think, for raising legal fences around people because they choose to be Lib-Dems or because they choose to be Mormons. 160 00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:56,760 Yeah, I think we should accept that when people make and leave these choices that they at the same time accept the cost of doing so. 161 00:18:57,540 --> 00:19:02,400 And that is that they might be criticised, they might be ridiculed, they might be offended by what people say. 162 00:19:03,090 --> 00:19:08,040 And that is just par for the course in a society where other people may very 163 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,220 well disagree with you and have an entitlement to express that disagreement. 164 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,930 But this is the realm also where considerations of practicality arise. 165 00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:24,550 If we live in an enflamed period where people have violent attachments to one or another view. 166 00:19:25,060 --> 00:19:34,600 If, for example, we found that poking fun at Mr. Cameron caused massed ranks of Tories to rise up and set fire to public buildings, 167 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:41,570 then we might consider what, in what circumstances we would offer criticisms of Mr. Cameron. 168 00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:43,360 We might consider the practicality, 169 00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:52,720 and that practicality is measured in terms of the consequences either of good or harm for other people and for uninvolved third parties. 170 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,180 There is, in other words, a demand here for responsibility. 171 00:19:57,010 --> 00:20:01,990 And the case that I think we've we've got to be able to articulate if we've got to make this case up for ourselves, 172 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:10,059 is that it has to be possible to live according to principles and to adhere to those very, 173 00:20:10,060 --> 00:20:14,920 very central and important principles which govern the whole array. 174 00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:20,710 The whole framework set of of five is that the constitutive of our society and how we organise it. 175 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,950 But to do it in an in an intelligent and thoughtful way and sometimes in a responsible way, 176 00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:31,030 that it shouldn't be impossible to make those things consistent. 177 00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:40,830 And really the debate that we've seen this rather bad tempered quarrel which has been going on now for a decade and a more, 178 00:20:41,370 --> 00:20:49,110 I think, prompted into a whole new register by what happened in 911 in the United States of America. 179 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:54,000 The bad tempered problem between people on opposite sides of the religious argument has been 180 00:20:54,000 --> 00:21:01,140 one which I think quite rightly has allowed for a good deal of very thorough criticism, 181 00:21:01,740 --> 00:21:08,240 a good deal of airing of of views, a good deal of of opening of wounds that should be allowed to breathe. 182 00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:11,400 There's no question about that. But on the other hand, 183 00:21:12,090 --> 00:21:17,999 the norms of a society which respects itself and respects open debate and respects 184 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:23,340 the opportunity to answer criticisms and affronts should also be part of the story. 185 00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:31,950 I had the great pleasure of being invited by the United Nations Development Agency Education Bhutan the year before last. 186 00:21:32,370 --> 00:21:35,099 Whereas, you know, against the will of the people, 187 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:42,030 the last king imposed democracy and this democratic experiment, which was just warming up at that time, 188 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,730 was being conducted quite thoughtfully by the people who had had to choose which political party 189 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:52,950 they were going to be in and submit themselves to the first voting procedure that they had there. 190 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:57,059 And they were very interested to think their way through and to get from other people who were 191 00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:01,860 interested in these matches some perspectives of what it is to occupy a democratic order, 192 00:22:01,860 --> 00:22:06,120 in particular how they conducted themselves with respect to civil liberties. 193 00:22:06,540 --> 00:22:15,210 Given that we live in an era where security considerations bear down rather heavily on some of our civil liberties, including freedom of expression. 194 00:22:15,630 --> 00:22:17,850 And so they invited a group of people to come and talk. 195 00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:26,490 And the point that I felt that I should like to offer them was that a democratic order is a noisy order, 196 00:22:27,090 --> 00:22:30,870 that democracy is not just elections periodically, but in between them. 197 00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:34,590 A lot of arguments in parallel and dissension and discussion and criticism and 198 00:22:34,890 --> 00:22:39,719 offensive remarks and jokes and cartoons and private eye and that this noise, 199 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,620 this tumult, if you if you like, is a mark of health. 200 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,800 That silence of of tyranny is this that that silence is a mark of tyranny, 201 00:22:50,250 --> 00:22:56,040 that when there seems to be peace, what you have actually is a kind of civil liberties wasteland. 202 00:22:56,490 --> 00:23:04,200 So the the anxieties that people felt about criticism and noise and people shouting their opinions 203 00:23:05,410 --> 00:23:11,430 and actually that actually it is a sign of health in a society and should be accepted as such. 204 00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:20,010 And just recently, I was telling some of our number that having begun to speak in a in a circumstance rather like this, 205 00:23:20,010 --> 00:23:27,059 somebody shouted out, You have no right to speak. And his neighbours in the auditorium turned on him and told him to shut up. 206 00:23:27,060 --> 00:23:35,670 And I felt moved to defend his right to tell me that there were providing providing he would make a case of that being said. 207 00:23:36,030 --> 00:23:41,969 And I think that's the important thing providing is an opportunity for a case that in all those matters where we've we 208 00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:49,080 should lift the constraints of everything other than responsibility and thoughtfulness about how we use our rights. 209 00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:55,110 And then all these cases, what we should be trying to do, however uncomfortable it is now, over the difficult. 210 00:23:55,110 --> 00:24:00,900 Sometimes it proves that we should defend freedom of expression and more or less to the last. 211 00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:07,400 Thank you very much. Thank you. 212 00:24:09,050 --> 00:24:14,210 Well, thank you very much, professors. I'm very honoured to be addressing you today. 213 00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:20,510 I'd like to talk about this idea of Islamic secularism, which I had promoted. 214 00:24:21,380 --> 00:24:24,620 What I meant by it, actually, it was one of the reasons I received death threats. 215 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,169 The main reason was whatever the evolution issue that the people who handed out leaflets in 216 00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:33,860 my mosque and those leaflets are available on the Internet if anybody wants to read them, 217 00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:42,200 had a charge sheet of four main crime, but I had apparently committed that the first and most important one for which they said. 218 00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:46,590 And they shouted out in the audience, they didn't say, You have no right to speak. They said you should be killed. 219 00:24:46,590 --> 00:24:54,120 What you said was over evolution, of course, that one of the others was they call it belief in secularism. 220 00:24:55,530 --> 00:25:04,860 And I'm sure, like many of you who who find it easy to reconcile issues, you know, you think this is all a big misunderstanding. 221 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,920 And that's how I often feel about the issues of conflict, of political conflict, 222 00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:14,910 religious conflict, etc., and for people to just sit down and talk in a civilised manner. 223 00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:18,900 So what did I mean by, you know, Islamic terrorism? 224 00:25:18,910 --> 00:25:24,660 So and I think Professor Garton Ash hinted when he talked about people being brought up in a secular world, 225 00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:29,190 but for many people, the secular and the religious don't co-exist. 226 00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:33,510 They don't entirely separate. And that is one of the sources of conflict in the world also at the moment. 227 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:45,270 But for me there is no distinction between the sacred and the secular in the sense that the word secular from the original Latin is meaning the world. 228 00:25:46,530 --> 00:25:54,500 The world is sacred because it is God's creation. And in the end, whether you accept something is a secret or not, it depends on your faith. 229 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:03,180 Prince Charles some years ago argued that. The Western world has to relearn a sense of the sacred from the Muslims, he said. 230 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,520 This is some ten or 15 years ago he gave in a public lecture and that's something that was very close to my heart, 231 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,640 which was I do have a strong sense of the sacred. As a scientist, I don't have the honour of discussing this with Professor Dawkins earlier. 232 00:26:15,390 --> 00:26:20,190 Everything in science I see as God's creation, the way God is created, it is sacred. 233 00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:27,720 Many people have written on to say the saints or in others, the idea of sacred science. 234 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:35,030 However, you cannot force people to have faith. I mean, that's just the nature of faith itself. 235 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,130 I can't face forced my faith on you and vice versa. 236 00:26:38,140 --> 00:26:41,280 And some people have no faith in any religion whatsoever. 237 00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:48,570 They can't be forced. And therefore, it seems to me that in practice we arrive at a neutral place. 238 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:57,470 So, for example. Science Professor Dawkins rightly says, is it a purely neutral activity or could it be? 239 00:26:57,830 --> 00:27:03,680 He probably didn't say that. But I believe believing that non-believers can do science together and we can discover the 240 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,480 secrets behind the black holes or behind DNA or any other wonderful phenomenon of science. 241 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,600 But the interpretation of that is left to the individual. For a believer, this is something sacred and majestic. 242 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:20,480 I think it's a reflection of God's name in in the laws of science. 243 00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:28,130 For a non-believer, it's not looking to God. It's beautiful and majestic and inspiring, etc., but it is nothing to do with God. 244 00:27:28,890 --> 00:27:37,880 Now something similar goes on in the public space, I believe, when it when it comes to living together, just learning to live together. 245 00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:45,350 And this is not a new idea because I read an Islamic tradition in Islamic law. 246 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,630 Centuries of this kind of thinking and when I talked about Islamic secularism, 247 00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:57,530 this was based on something from Ibn Khaldun, who lived six centuries ago in North Africa. 248 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,810 And his book, The Ultimate Introduction to History, is incredible book. 249 00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:07,070 Arnold Toynbee said it was the greatest book that had ever been written by any human mind anywhere. 250 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:15,860 And in that, he comments on the teaching of the Prophet Muhammad, peace upon him, who said to his people, You know your worldly affairs better. 251 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:26,030 When he commented about too matter of agriculture, actually cross-pollination and his disciples listened to what he said and the yields went down. 252 00:28:26,030 --> 00:28:30,080 And then the complaint in the complaint to the prophet who said, you know, we followed your advice and things went wrong. 253 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:34,130 And he replied to them saying, you know, your world, your face better. 254 00:28:35,330 --> 00:28:42,410 I'm here to teach the way to God, spirituality, etc. but you can put that aside for thing that you know better. 255 00:28:43,350 --> 00:28:50,460 And the the mention of the word world in there with what led me to the idea of Islamic secularism, 256 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:55,710 you know, the word secular itself, as I said, in the Latin meaning worldly. 257 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,920 Meaning that again, I even had some comments. 258 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:06,400 He say The prophets of God and for believers, you know, the prophets of God, Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, all the other Buddha, etc. 259 00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:12,330 And in many Muslim countries, by the way, it's not just the Prophet Muhammad through reputation, which is protected by faith. 260 00:29:12,340 --> 00:29:15,130 It's actually Jesus Christ and Moses and Abraham and everyone. 261 00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:20,560 And even though I don't say that the prophets of God were sent to teach people the way to God. 262 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,240 You have to believe in God, of course. Again, discussing this idea with the professor. 263 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:36,770 If you believe in God, then. Then that follows. If you don't believe in God, then there's no concept of of getting closer to God, etc. 264 00:29:36,910 --> 00:29:43,309 But that for believers there is an issue how do you make contact with God or with that unifying 265 00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:53,870 principle or that transcendent and imminent being or principle or whatever you want to call it in life. 266 00:29:55,100 --> 00:30:01,999 So even if I don't say that, that the prophets teach you way to behave in including prayer and fasting and saving the poor, 267 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:10,070 etc., which humanists agree with as well, of course, in terms of serving people, not not the prayer, etc. 268 00:30:10,670 --> 00:30:19,639 But he says this is Ibn Khaldun is that the human crafts, the technology, the architecture, the science, the agriculture. 269 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,990 The art of war, the craft, the. 270 00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:31,690 The craft of government, of civilisation, etc. These are purely left to the human intellect, 271 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:37,160 and the human intellect is one of God's great greatest gift, of the greatest gift to us. 272 00:30:37,180 --> 00:30:40,840 It is what distinguishes us from the rest of creation, of the rest of nature, 273 00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:48,850 and what gives us mastery over the rest of of nature or so much of nature and nature, at least on the earth. 274 00:30:49,930 --> 00:30:54,880 And historically, of course, the Islamic civilisation, like the Christian and others, 275 00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,040 celebrated the power of reason and logic as this great divine gift. 276 00:31:01,460 --> 00:31:05,180 And of course, Muslims and Muslim universities led the world for centuries. 277 00:31:05,930 --> 00:31:12,470 But the first universities and hospitals, etc., were in the Muslim world, and there was this immense passion for learning. 278 00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:15,829 You had the house of wisdom in Baghdad in over a thousand years ago, 279 00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:22,160 which translated so many of the Greek works into Arabic, and those eventually reached the West through that. 280 00:31:22,550 --> 00:31:29,060 So much of our scientific heritage had, as part of its story, the Islamic period, 281 00:31:29,060 --> 00:31:34,040 of course, and the modern world in that sense has those Islamic groups. 282 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:41,690 But, you know, they've been long forgotten, especially as the Muslim world has has descended into the well into the state that it is now. 283 00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:49,760 So that particular idea that you you develop learning and argumentation. 284 00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:53,740 Islam itself had dozens of philosophical schools earlier on, 285 00:31:53,810 --> 00:32:02,000 dozens of legal schools still now many interpretations of Islamic law and the faith itself. 286 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:07,009 But very early on, there was immense flowering of learning and dialogue which went on, 287 00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:14,270 and people generally didn't have this kind of inquisition, inquisition or approach to things. 288 00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:15,410 There were exception, of course. 289 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:22,970 There were one or two Muslim inquisitions in the 20th century and seen been had been a century of fundamentalism in all religions, perhaps. 290 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,260 So we've come we've come to a very terrible place there with the religions. 291 00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:36,770 But I see in the reading of Islamic civilisation an immense opportunity, immense spaces where things like freedom of speech, etc., 292 00:32:36,770 --> 00:32:44,120 that we've been talking about were kind of assumed taken for granted and also had a very strong Democratic character to it. 293 00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:51,229 One example is the treatment of minorities, for which I recommend Zachary Campbell's book, 294 00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:56,440 The People of the Book, about how Jews and Christians lived within the Muslim civilisation. 295 00:32:56,670 --> 00:33:02,810 He's a student of Professor Richard Bulleit, who, of course wrote the Case for Islam, a Christian civilisation. 296 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,370 And of course, in India, where the Mongols ruled for four centuries, 297 00:33:09,490 --> 00:33:15,730 over a majority Hindu population, Hindu and sea population, there are again different examples. 298 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:21,880 There were one or two of the Mughal emperors who persecuted some of their subjects. 299 00:33:21,910 --> 00:33:29,830 There were also other centuries ago who who had Hindu and Muslim wives and attempted this kind of great syncretic. 300 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:40,040 Project in terms of bringing the relations together and getting to the essential mystical truth or the central truth, 301 00:33:41,270 --> 00:33:42,770 which like the core of all religions. 302 00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:50,800 And that particular may or may not have failed with the point that it was tried by the emperor of Muslim India at the time. 303 00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:56,470 And in fact, it still has enormous influence, especially in the various bodies of Sufism. 304 00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:06,010 Now, relatedly, just like you talk about law and experience, because, again, for Muslims, Sharia is very important. 305 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:13,810 Sharia law and because I've studied Sharia is looking at the demand of actually less concerned about law. 306 00:34:14,530 --> 00:34:16,240 For me, law is the basis. 307 00:34:16,260 --> 00:34:24,280 It is the basic minimum that you expect laws related to justice, which is which is, again, the basic you expect or we should expect in society. 308 00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:30,580 But there's something far beyond justice then, which is, you know, the higher thing in life, like mercy, for example, 309 00:34:30,580 --> 00:34:40,990 in traditional Islamic discourse, you would talk about minimum being justice and the highest level being mercy is what you aspire to. 310 00:34:41,890 --> 00:34:44,200 Of course, that's found in Western discourse as well. 311 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:49,960 Of course, I was very struck by the Scottish Minister a couple of years ago when he the release of al-Megrahi, 312 00:34:50,570 --> 00:34:53,680 the the Libyan was convicted for the Lockerbie bombing. 313 00:34:54,130 --> 00:34:59,110 He talked about the same thing. Of course, he talked about justice and compassion or what you would call mercy. 314 00:34:59,830 --> 00:35:07,870 And at any moment, I'm more interested not in explaining to people the the dos and don'ts of the law and which 315 00:35:07,870 --> 00:35:12,700 can often degenerate into just mere ritual observing observance without any spirit of soul. 316 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:19,180 And it is a problem which plagued Islam and Judaism, I believe, and other forms of of religion. 317 00:35:20,020 --> 00:35:26,590 But I'm more interested in inspiring people with a spirit, you know, to do it to to aspire to the highest. 318 00:35:28,350 --> 00:35:31,169 And therefore it becomes it becomes a question of good manners. 319 00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:38,730 In the end, as Professor Grayling said, you know, etiquette and what should you do rather than what you're allowed to do? 320 00:35:40,510 --> 00:35:44,229 In a muslim society. It's it's very different. And, you know, 321 00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:52,660 people I'm sure people will challenge for centuries there were and there are laws in Muslim countries which are not upholding freedom of speech. 322 00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:58,609 In the sense that, you know, the character of the prophet, for example, 323 00:35:58,610 --> 00:36:04,030 or the person of the prophet or of Jesus Christ or others, are not seen as decent people who who no longer exist. 324 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:10,700 In a sense, the Prophet Muhammad is very real and even more real than than people ourselves. 325 00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:16,100 And for example, listen, I talk to love the Prophet Muhammad more than they love themselves or their families. 326 00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:21,800 And I think that brings us to the point which Professor Grayling was talking about. What do you do in such a situation? 327 00:36:25,330 --> 00:36:32,710 And as for Muslim society, the situation is different. And I think I think that's where the principle of democracy comes in, because I see, again, 328 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:40,300 Islam originally as having very strong democratic roots there, the chapter of the Koran in entitled Funeral Consultation. 329 00:36:40,990 --> 00:36:43,240 So the whole political structure, structure of Islam, 330 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:50,080 who is thought to be inspired by the principle of consultation, which for me, democracy is one form of. 331 00:36:51,410 --> 00:36:59,230 Of consulting people. So what can Muslim countries in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia this in that you know, I like to leave it to them. 332 00:36:59,620 --> 00:37:05,109 What I do know is that most of the cases brought under the blasphemy laws are usually brought for other reasons, 333 00:37:05,110 --> 00:37:08,530 political reasons, and people settling scores against each other. 334 00:37:09,070 --> 00:37:12,810 And and generally people, you know, don't go under in Muslim societies. 335 00:37:12,820 --> 00:37:15,920 They have a sense of the sacred. They don't go around and. 336 00:37:18,350 --> 00:37:21,780 Insulting the great religious figures of the past. 337 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,600 It's not actually a big issue. 338 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:32,719 The Muslim world has far more serious issues in terms of basic human rights and the lack of democracy now with dictators and tyrants. 339 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:36,560 And we've seen the Arab Spring and brought all of that all of that out. 340 00:37:38,910 --> 00:37:44,400 But as I said, it comes to basic etiquette etiquette into the spirit rather than rather than the law. 341 00:37:44,430 --> 00:37:49,320 So, for example, when it came to the cartoons and things, the Danish cartoons. 342 00:37:51,350 --> 00:37:53,959 You know, they didn't bother me. I didn't look at the cartoon. In fact, I'm not interested. 343 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,700 I didn't want to look at those cartoon because the prophet is sacred to me. But I understand why. 344 00:37:58,850 --> 00:38:05,509 I met one of the Norwegian editors. He told me why he felt it's very important to uphold the freedom of speech and to print those cartoons. 345 00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:09,230 And I tried to reason with them as to as to why I tried to help it, 346 00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:18,980 help them to understand why Muslims took such offence and the interpretation of Islamic law, the philosophical basis to which I subscribe. 347 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:28,400 And it is very dominant in the history of Islam. For the theory of democracy, the theory of the objective of law is all about benefits versus harms. 348 00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:34,660 Good versus. Good versus mischief in society. 349 00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:44,220 And I believe it actually upholds this reading of law as an instrument for social order and social justice, 350 00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:48,720 and the issues of faith, etc., and spirit are left to individual faith. 351 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:55,799 And that's the voluntary thing which faith communities, you know, imams, priests, rabbis and others will teach their congregations. 352 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,250 And the communities of believers need to deal with this. 353 00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:07,640 And in the end for me, I agree it is entirely a matter of pragmatism in practice. 354 00:39:07,850 --> 00:39:13,669 What do people hold sacred? So when Professor Garton Ash also questioned, is anything sacred in the mind? 355 00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:19,300 Somewhat, actually everything is sacred. For me, as I said. But we have to apply the principle of democracy. 356 00:39:19,310 --> 00:39:24,740 Any, any, any society has to agree democratically. What we are going to protect, what we are not going to. 357 00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:28,730 And often you have you have to take the practicalities and pragmatism into account. 358 00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:34,680 So for example, you know, Ring is a Celtic recently and it has become a big issue in Scotland, 359 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:43,440 the whole nation gripped by that issue in the Parliament. Is it is it okay to to badmouth Celtic or Rangers? 360 00:39:43,710 --> 00:39:44,910 Most people would say, yeah, that's fine. 361 00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:50,610 But not on the big day of the old, old firm Derby, where there are thousands of people ready to kind of start fighting. 362 00:39:51,330 --> 00:39:56,910 Most people accept that's not a good time to dish out obscenities against each others figures or clubs, for example. 363 00:39:57,510 --> 00:40:01,470 And there is an intriguing question, which you mentioned about the shouting fire in the cinema. 364 00:40:01,770 --> 00:40:12,030 Interestingly, one of the young bloggers who launched a vitriolic attack on me recently over several issues, 365 00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:18,060 he actually wrote anti the young western British born blogger. 366 00:40:18,690 --> 00:40:27,000 She said someone should should learn that you cannot shout evolution in the mosque just as you cannot shout five kind of theatre, you know. 367 00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:33,809 So I think my time is finished now, but I hope I've tried to convey some of the issues which arise out of this. 368 00:40:33,810 --> 00:40:42,140 And I'm very grateful for the opportunity to perhaps contribute to the dialogue around free speech, especially from a perspective is also. 369 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:42,810 Thank you very much. 370 00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:52,800 It's an honour to be here and I come because I would always be honoured to be asked to sit on his behalf, particularly because Tim asked me. 371 00:40:53,310 --> 00:41:03,180 I first came across Tim when he was reporting for The Spectator from Poland at the time of martial law and solidarity and all of that. 372 00:41:03,690 --> 00:41:10,260 And I mention that partly because what Tim wrote was very marvellous and also because it was an early example, 373 00:41:10,410 --> 00:41:18,059 the experienced in my journalistic life of a time when Christianity and in this case 374 00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:24,690 specifically the Catholic faith produced was in the in the forefront of fighting for freedom. 375 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:37,530 And they were confronting an atheistic state which had a law which was entirely secular and which theoretically guaranteed all rights. 376 00:41:37,890 --> 00:41:41,550 I think that's a sort of important example to bear in mind. 377 00:41:41,790 --> 00:41:50,860 And what we're being asked to consider today is the idea that insults to religion should be forbidden by law. 378 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,400 That's that's the first piece of what we're being asked to consider. 379 00:41:54,030 --> 00:42:01,590 And I think I'm going to end up agreeing with what I mentioned is the majority view here that it should not be forbidden by law. 380 00:42:02,190 --> 00:42:09,990 But before I do that, I just do want to remind everybody why it is that people might think that religion. 381 00:42:10,460 --> 00:42:14,070 I have thought historically that religion should be protected by law. 382 00:42:14,580 --> 00:42:21,990 And the fundamental answer is that law in the history of the world has largely grown out of religion. 383 00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:32,460 And therefore, what the law of the land is has is based on the people's idea of what the truth about everything is. 384 00:42:32,670 --> 00:42:38,490 And the truth about everything has been revealed to the people through religion 385 00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:45,690 and therefore the state and the law is constructed upon the truth of religion, 386 00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:52,530 and therefore, in a denial of the truth of religion, is not merely upsetting for religious people. 387 00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:57,080 It is an attack on the idea of law itself. 388 00:42:57,180 --> 00:43:02,650 Itself. On the idea of the state itself. On the idea of the public order as it is understood. 389 00:43:02,670 --> 00:43:08,520 This is people must understand this in order to see, as it were, where people are coming from. 390 00:43:09,420 --> 00:43:20,100 And that seems to me at the time that it developed and understandable, indeed an almost universal fact. 391 00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:25,980 And if you think of it, for example, in this university, 392 00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:32,760 it would now be thought anathema for this great university to express collectively a religious preference. 393 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,780 But of course, this great university was for hundreds and hundreds of years, 394 00:43:36,930 --> 00:43:42,570 exclusively a religious institution, first a Catholic one, and second an Anglican one. 395 00:43:42,750 --> 00:43:48,750 And I think it's true, isn't it, Tim? That only is only in the middle of the 19th century that dons were permitted not to be Anglican. 396 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,989 And I think they all were. And you can clergy until that time and however monstrous one might think that 397 00:43:54,990 --> 00:44:01,590 now on the whole freedom was advanced by this great institution in that time. 398 00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:08,730 So I think it's it's important to see this historically rather than just to lay down absolute principles. 399 00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:14,280 And I'd also say that when Anthony Grayling set out the various things that should be protected by law, 400 00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:22,380 I'd be very sympathetic with much of what he said. But I would point out that he is, in a sense, when he does that, expressing his religion, 401 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,920 because he is saying that choice is the only thing that matters and what you can't choose. 402 00:44:29,550 --> 00:44:33,390 People would not historically have said that. People in many places would disagree. 403 00:44:33,570 --> 00:44:39,600 For example, he seemed to be saying that there should be no distinction between the rights of the two sexes. 404 00:44:41,550 --> 00:44:47,400 Many people, most people in that room would now agree that. But it is a legitimate point of view to argue otherwise. 405 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,350 And it's a point of view which has been held by most people throughout history that 406 00:44:52,350 --> 00:44:58,020 women and men have different characteristics which may issue in different legal order, 407 00:44:58,020 --> 00:45:02,270 educational and so on. And I'm not asking anybody to think that that's right. 408 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,540 I'm merely pointing out that he's expressing a set of beliefs which he thinks should be protected by law. 409 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:11,850 And religious people have expressed another set of beliefs which they think should be protected by law. 410 00:45:13,110 --> 00:45:24,600 However, we live in a society today, at least in the West, where our law, though it is derived from religious belief, is not precisely religious. 411 00:45:26,010 --> 00:45:31,589 And I think we don't want it to be for a whole variety of reasons. 412 00:45:31,590 --> 00:45:38,010 We do not want it to be, and we would regard it as regressive or oppressive if it were so to be. 413 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,190 And so whenever somebody now says that religion in this country should be protected by law. 414 00:45:44,260 --> 00:45:50,889 I find myself strongly against it. And the odd thing that's happened is it almost at one point became politically correct to say 415 00:45:50,890 --> 00:45:55,810 that it should be protected by law because the old protections which had been for Christianity, 416 00:45:55,810 --> 00:45:59,470 because that was the foundation of the state of the culture, of the political order. 417 00:45:59,970 --> 00:46:01,540 And that seems to be the argument. 418 00:46:01,540 --> 00:46:08,030 And the argument was that it was the sort of aspect of multiculturalism and ethnicity that your religion should be protected by law. 419 00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:19,240 And I would argue that that was a very dangerous pastime which to go, because when people are arguing for the protection of their religion by law, 420 00:46:19,570 --> 00:46:23,080 what they're actually trying to do is grab a certain amount of power. 421 00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:26,650 They're trying to capture a bit of the public space. 422 00:46:27,250 --> 00:46:34,000 So that and I think without wishing to be sectarian about it, I would accuse Islamists not not Muslims in general, 423 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:43,180 but Islamists of arguing that specifically, because what they what they are thinking of is the idea that Islam should rule in a temporal sense. 424 00:46:43,420 --> 00:46:49,209 So they're trying to acquire sacred space and they're trying to acquire it in in this country, among others. 425 00:46:49,210 --> 00:46:53,890 And that should be very much resisted. The blasphemy law in Pakistan was mentioned. 426 00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:00,309 One of the things I observe, without being at all knowledgeable about it, about the blasphemy law in Pakistan, is that it is, of course, 427 00:47:00,310 --> 00:47:10,900 an instrument of power being used against people who various politicians don't like, and it can be used in terms to attack the Christian minority. 428 00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:21,340 For example, one thing you often read about in Pakistan is that it is alleged that a Christian has desecrated the Koran in some way, 429 00:47:22,150 --> 00:47:30,430 and it's not proved, but it is alleged. And then persecution starts, a court case starts, and it's also a riot often starts. 430 00:47:30,970 --> 00:47:36,150 And often that involves doing things like smashing the windows of Christian shopkeepers and all that. 431 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,430 And all that has to do with, oh, here's professor. 432 00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:44,680 Greetings, friends, again, I think by the way on that point. 433 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,540 So that reminds me I mustn't divert for too long, but when, when they were standing there, you might not be able to see it. 434 00:47:49,540 --> 00:47:54,819 But they were what they were doing is they were waving wallets because I think they were complaining about 435 00:47:54,820 --> 00:48:00,040 the idea that Professor Grayling's University would only be available for people with large sums of money. 436 00:48:00,370 --> 00:48:05,229 And it makes it it's a point I want to make, which is a slight criticism, not of your university. 437 00:48:05,230 --> 00:48:14,440 We're not talking about that, but about a view argument today, which is that when you express yourself very freely, was only exercising a right. 438 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,889 But you're often if you're like me, a journalist in a national newspaper, 439 00:48:17,890 --> 00:48:22,930 or like Professor Grayling, a distinguished professor, often speaking from a position of power. 440 00:48:23,260 --> 00:48:26,680 And I think one just has to bear that in mind when once insulting people that 441 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,370 it's quite frightening to be insulted by somebody who you think are powerful. 442 00:48:30,550 --> 00:48:33,400 And anybody who's ever been insulted by the Daily Mail, for example, 443 00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:37,900 will know that one of the things that's so vile about it is they're very powerful people. 444 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,459 And yes, they do have the right to insult people. 445 00:48:42,460 --> 00:48:52,300 But let's just remember how what a very formidable thing that can be when The Daily Mail is on your tail for whatever it thinks you've done wrong. 446 00:48:54,610 --> 00:49:12,280 So I'm not going to defend the a restriction on comment on religion by law, but sorry, can you hear us? 447 00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:16,929 But I do want to talk a bit about the question which Tim asked you to about, 448 00:49:16,930 --> 00:49:23,710 which is what should be said and what should or should not be said, which I think is a more difficult question. 449 00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:38,400 And the fact that human rights talk and provides for freedom of religion surely implies that religion should be respected. 450 00:49:38,550 --> 00:49:46,740 It's obviously considered to be a very important aspect, even by people who draw up human rights codes who are completely irreligious themselves. 451 00:49:46,740 --> 00:49:55,980 They surely believe that this is a very important thing, that religion should be and should be freely practised and freely express. 452 00:49:56,610 --> 00:50:01,650 So what that implies is the idea that religion itself is important and also perhaps. 453 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,480 That it goes to people's hearts. And in this respect, the question of is it like mathematics? 454 00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:13,350 There's some aspects of religion that are like mathematics, but there are other aspects that aren't. 455 00:50:14,580 --> 00:50:20,790 And. I think another thing that a religious person tends to observe about. 456 00:50:23,180 --> 00:50:28,160 Irreligious people is that they really don't know much about religion. 457 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,190 Now, this is often our fault. 458 00:50:31,250 --> 00:50:39,920 It may be said we don't explain it well and we seem so revolting that people are not attracted to what we're arguing or whatever it may be. 459 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:46,540 But nevertheless, it is a fact that religion is extremely hard to understand from the outside. 460 00:50:46,550 --> 00:50:51,600 It's pretty hard to understand from the inside to but from the outside, particularly so. 461 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,969 And therefore, it's a foolish person who starts rushing in an attacking. 462 00:50:55,970 --> 00:50:59,120 Let's take the Jewish customs of diet, for example. 463 00:50:59,420 --> 00:51:08,300 They are, to me, I must say, perplexing. And I wonder why such brilliant people spend so much time worrying about them. 464 00:51:08,810 --> 00:51:12,920 But I bite my tongue when I start to think about that sort of thing, 465 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:19,489 because I know that this is a very complicated set of arrangements which relate to all sorts of other ideas about law, 466 00:51:19,490 --> 00:51:24,590 about about a people in a tribe, about people living together, about climate, 467 00:51:24,590 --> 00:51:28,580 about what's decorous, about how animals are best looked after, and so on. 468 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:34,340 And so basically I shut up and I don't start saying, Oh no, there shouldn't be kosher restaurants, 469 00:51:34,580 --> 00:51:40,969 because I know that there's actually a lot of things going on here that that matter very much, but which I didn't understand. 470 00:51:40,970 --> 00:51:47,690 And speaking as a Catholic, I find that literally every single person who's spoken to me, ever who's not a Catholic, 471 00:51:47,690 --> 00:51:53,150 about the doctrines of the mass of Holy Communion in some respects doesn't understand them. 472 00:51:53,930 --> 00:51:55,969 And by the way, most of us Catholics don't either. 473 00:51:55,970 --> 00:52:08,090 But and but this just illustrates the the importance here of recognising that something very complicated and deep is going on. 474 00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:10,560 And this is particularly true, of course, of great religions. 475 00:52:10,580 --> 00:52:14,600 Now, one of the things difficulties now is that almost anything can be defined as a religion. 476 00:52:16,410 --> 00:52:23,030 And of course, without wishing any disrespect to the Duke of Edinburgh on this, his 90th is very day, his 90th birthday. 477 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:28,489 I would just remind people that there is a religion in the South Seas where they worship the Duke of Edinburgh. 478 00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:35,000 There's an island in the South Seas where he is considered to be God and penis goods are issued in His honour. 479 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:41,689 And while I think this is very sort of rather touching, actually, 480 00:52:41,690 --> 00:52:49,040 I'm I'm not claiming that we should all automatically issue equal respect to absolutely everything else that calls itself a religion. 481 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:55,310 And I would tend not to give a great deal of intellectual time to the idea that the Duke of Edinburgh is divine. 482 00:52:55,610 --> 00:53:07,940 But when you talk about a great, widely believed, long established religion Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and so on, 483 00:53:08,690 --> 00:53:18,860 you are talking about an immensely complex set, set of thoughts, feelings, laws, history, art, poetry, scripture, and so on. 484 00:53:19,490 --> 00:53:28,760 And therefore, it's highly unwise not to recognise the importance of that test of time, and therefore it's usually unwise to be plain rude. 485 00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:34,850 It would be absurd not to be critical. It would be absurd not to express your disagreements if you felt them. 486 00:53:35,150 --> 00:53:39,790 But it would be dangerous just to say this is all revolting piffle. 487 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,070 It's most unlikely that none of it will be revolting piffle. 488 00:53:43,070 --> 00:53:46,130 But it's also even more unlikely that it's all revolting piffle. 489 00:53:48,530 --> 00:53:55,879 And I don't agree with the idea that's now put about by those who wish religion to be protected by law, 490 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,110 that the biggest problem is the offence caused to the believer. 491 00:54:00,950 --> 00:54:03,589 One reason I disagree with is I see the consequences of this, 492 00:54:03,590 --> 00:54:11,570 which is if if people think that offence that they will get some power by being offended, they decide to get even more offended. 493 00:54:11,930 --> 00:54:18,620 So say the most disagreeable people, make the most fuss about how everything is being. 494 00:54:19,070 --> 00:54:24,440 You know how well I'm taking terrible off. Oh, yes, this really hurts me and I'm very suspicious of that. 495 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,250 And indeed, as a Christian, since one's taught to turn the other cheek, 496 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:34,160 it would be an un-Christian act to take tremendous offence even when an offence is given. 497 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,290 So I would be I would be very careful about that. 498 00:54:39,710 --> 00:54:44,540 I don't think the issue is, are some people offended? 499 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:54,770 I think it's more that if you have a just understanding of what it is to have to follow a faith, you wouldn't actually want to offend people, 500 00:54:55,700 --> 00:55:03,020 you would you would respect it because it is something of such importance and depth and interests. 501 00:55:04,220 --> 00:55:09,140 And I would say reality and I would I would argue reality. 502 00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:15,170 I would argue the point about reality, even to those two atheists who say that it's totally unreal. 503 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:21,050 A comparison you could make, for example, is the idea of what people feel about a family. 504 00:55:21,930 --> 00:55:25,380 Quite a lot of people in the modern world who don't really believe in the idea of family. 505 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,420 But to most people throughout history and in most parts of the world and even most people in this country, 506 00:55:30,750 --> 00:55:36,030 family ties are in some are vitally important and in some sense sacred. 507 00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:46,950 And we all know that to insult someone's children or parents or spouse is to do them a very grave injury and is a contemptible thing to do. 508 00:55:47,550 --> 00:55:52,560 And I think if you were to understand what what it is to have a religious sentiment, 509 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,600 you have to think of it rather like the love that is felt for a family. 510 00:55:57,930 --> 00:56:04,950 When Muslims speak of Mohammed, they always Osama mentioned this point that they love that they have that strong idea 511 00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:10,500 of loving the prophet and they always say peace be upon him whenever they mention him, 512 00:56:11,580 --> 00:56:20,309 because that's an expression of that love. And Christians are brought up to have a special love for Jesus and to feel, of course, 513 00:56:20,310 --> 00:56:24,960 that He loves them and they love him in return, and that God is their loving father. 514 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:31,830 And if they Catholics, they also think, have a special love for the Virgin Mary, and they would often speak of her as their mother. 515 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:42,750 So he's in it for the believer, Christian, believe Jesus is in your head and your heart and he's sort of by your hearth. 516 00:56:42,930 --> 00:56:47,910 He's in your home. He's he's with you. And once those things are clear, 517 00:56:48,330 --> 00:56:57,780 you said he recognised it would be a strange and brutal person who wanted to just chuck a whole load of order and all of that. 518 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:04,770 They wouldn't have to accept any of the doctrines, but it would be strange and crude and unpleasant. 519 00:57:05,340 --> 00:57:11,970 Once upon a time, the evangelical movement, if anybody exclaimed with the name of Jesus by by way of swearing, 520 00:57:12,330 --> 00:57:15,690 that you would say, Don't say that he happens to be a friend of mine. 521 00:57:16,350 --> 00:57:19,710 I personally find that runs an awful twee way of. But. 522 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:25,890 But. But the point is that the idea is real in people's minds that Jesus is their friend. 523 00:57:25,890 --> 00:57:33,060 Is they him? What a friend we have in Jesus. And you don't you you should not try to insult people's friends without very good reason. 524 00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:37,530 And this is also very important in all religions, the idea of the image. 525 00:57:38,770 --> 00:57:43,659 Of the divine and the word of the divine, and the idea of the image can cut both ways. 526 00:57:43,660 --> 00:57:50,950 So in Islam, as I understand it, you cannot depict a muhammad or any muhammad is not divine. 527 00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:59,200 But do you see the point? So some regions do it by by thinking the image is so important that you can't even depict it. 528 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:05,380 And others think. Most Christians, for example, they not all would say you should depict, but you should depict it beautifully. 529 00:58:05,530 --> 00:58:10,120 And similarly, the word is so important. So a great, great attachment is given to these things. 530 00:58:10,420 --> 00:58:16,690 And these to you too should surely be respected because they are expressions of truth, 531 00:58:16,930 --> 00:58:22,510 expressions of beauty, and they show the way in which people think about their beliefs. 532 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,359 So for example, it's much easier and better. I mean, morally better. 533 00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:36,550 I think to say that Christianity and Islam and so on are all untrue than to say things like Mohammed was a paedophile. 534 00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:42,520 I have written in print defending the proposition that people should be allowed to say that Mohammed was a paedophile. 535 00:58:43,570 --> 00:58:50,049 There are specific reasons why people do say this, but nevertheless, 536 00:58:50,050 --> 00:58:55,840 I think people should discourage themselves from saying it unless they really feel they can prove it. 537 00:58:58,060 --> 00:59:06,650 It's not fine. It's fine to argue against a set of beliefs, but not, I think, to impugn the motives of those who held who hold them and. 538 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:17,560 Now, however, as having said all that, when one shows disrespect, it must be real respect and it must not be governed by fear. 539 00:59:18,490 --> 00:59:23,980 And one of the things that's happening now in being polite about religions is that people are politest about the ones they most frightened of. 540 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,309 So that means they all suck up to Islam now and are very rude. 541 00:59:27,310 --> 00:59:34,510 And you see all these alternative comedians who do who do build brawling things where they sort of mock The Last Supper or something like that, 542 00:59:34,510 --> 00:59:40,540 because they know in the end nobody's going to come and threaten them and they're not so sure about that. 543 00:59:40,810 --> 00:59:45,070 I actually heard one comedian justify this on the grounds he's one alternative comedian said, 544 00:59:45,460 --> 00:59:48,400 yes, well, Muslims are better at protecting the brand, was how he put it. 545 00:59:49,690 --> 00:59:56,760 And but this is a very, very alarming state of affairs, if really all it is is you're frightened of attack. 546 00:59:56,770 --> 01:00:02,320 And as a former editor, I do understand this because, of course, you do respond when people get very, very angry. 547 01:00:02,860 --> 01:00:11,470 Once I was editing the Sunday Telegraph and I inadvertently allowed a Hindu journalist who worked for us to write a little item about Sikhs, 548 01:00:11,740 --> 01:00:17,380 and I'm afraid we just weren't paying attention to it. And he said something about how Sikhs had extraordinary strong libido or something like that, 549 01:00:17,860 --> 01:00:23,500 and it was way out of order and it just hadn't been noticed. 550 01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:26,590 And what happened, of course, was that the Sikhs protested. 551 01:00:26,620 --> 01:00:28,329 That in itself was perfectly entitled to do. 552 01:00:28,330 --> 01:00:34,209 But I'm afraid we were moved by the fact that they threatened to march on our building, waving ceremonial swords. 553 01:00:34,210 --> 01:00:34,810 And at that point, 554 01:00:34,810 --> 01:00:42,670 we were somewhat more attentive to their complaint than we would have been if a similar rudeness had been offered to the Methodists. 555 01:00:46,570 --> 01:00:55,240 And so there I think that if one's being bullied, the journalist in me would immediately come out and say, 556 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,710 you know, if if we're being bullied, then much better to be rude than to give in. 557 01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:04,720 And so that's the that's the balance. 558 01:01:05,620 --> 01:01:10,060 And I think one must risk offence rather than capitulation. 559 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:15,010 But nevertheless, offence is not something which one should automatically be proud of. 560 01:01:15,220 --> 01:01:23,379 And I think it's a particularly male thing and a particularly thing of a highly educated person to think that you've done something wonderful, 561 01:01:23,380 --> 01:01:30,930 if with your words, you have offended some somebody, but actually you might just have done something pretty stupid, I think.